I notice from the front pages seems to have learned from their initial incorrrct reports on how effective the oxford vaccine is. Check BBC website....nope still...sniffs....fiddles with mic...WROOONGGG...
The account of the vaccine's effectiveness you object to originates with AZ. If they were unhappy with the version of that account being given by the press, it's not like Andrew Pollard hasn't been all over the media all day with a chance of putting them right. Is he wrong about everything too?
"Trials of the Oxford vaccine show it stops 70% of people developing Covid symptoms."
This is verifiably false on 2 accounts. The rest of the press have realised this and corrected their reporting.
The supposed job of the press is to cut through and expose the facts. A 5bn a year organization with supposedly world class journalism has consistently over the past 9 months been wrong.
Well, the government has just destroyed my daughter’s business.
If she ends up in Tier 2 and the rules aren’t changed or more support provides, it’s over.
If people can only come with the people they live with, there simply will not be enough business to keep her going until Easter. What’s more, the government still hasn’t said what is to happen on NY’s Eve or over Xmas. Without that trade, there is no chance.
Meanwhile people can cram into busy shops which will have none of the precautions hospitality venues have put in place and into tubes and buses. The 4 places which are riskiest for the virus are schools, universities, hospitals and shops. But guess who gets shafted?
It wouldn’t matter so much if there was proper support. But there isn’t. Such businesses have to pay rent, gas, electricity, phone, WiFi, insurance, water, NI and pension contributions etc - and the grant does not come even close to helping with that. Nor does furlough. And it’s not as if such places have earned the fat to see them through. The only period during which they have been able to trade even close to normal was between 4 July to 24 September.
If anyone thinks that just over 2 months trading out of a year is sufficient to keep a business going, I have a bridge in Nigeria to sell them.
Thanks a fucking bunch!
I hope that Cyclefree jr is in the lowest Tier.
I think all of Leicester will be in Tier 2, with the City, Oadby and Wigston and probably Charnwood in the highest Tier, so local to me in deep trouble
Foxy. What did you make of the second in the Steve McQueen 'Small Axe' series?
I liked it, having lived with a West Indian bloke in a 2 bed flat in South London in the Eighties, I got some but not all the references. Great music, and acting and good to see a Black British story told that isn't centered on the sharp end of racism.
Me too. I liked it a lot. Brave of the BBC I thought. It was somewhere between an art installation and a film. I just hope people stay with it. Wonderfully shot
Apparently the first one did very poorly in the ratings, only just over 1 million tuned in for what is a prime slot.
That's disappointing. Real quality TV but if the first didn't find an audience the second certainly won't
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
Am enjoying Queen's Gambit very much. Thanks to all who recommended it a couple of days ago.
We are going to make a start on it in the next few days, due to the various recommendations it has had. Wifey just wants to finish The Vow first on SKY documentaries. Which she highly recommends. (About the cult NXIVM.)
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
Foxy. What did you make of the second in the Steve McQueen 'Small Axe' series?
I liked it, having lived with a West Indian bloke in a 2 bed flat in South London in the Eighties, I got some but not all the references. Great music, and acting and good to see a Black British story told that isn't centered on the sharp end of racism.
Me too. I liked it a lot. Brave of the BBC I thought. It was somewhere between an art installation and a film. I just hope people stay with it. Wonderfully shot
Apparently the first one did very poorly in the ratings, only just over 1 million tuned in for what is a prime slot.
That's disappointing. Real quality TV but if the first didn't find an audience the second certainly won't
Is it on iPlayer ?
Yes. I think the whole series was shot in 2019, so Mangrove anticipating the BLM issues of this year. Lovers Rock is much less overtly political, more boy meets girl, and coming of age.
Small Axe, Series 1: Lovers Rock: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000prjp via @bbciplayer
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
You really are obsessed. Whatever people might say, what matters is what happens, and we'll never know what would have happened in that situation because it didn't occur.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
In name only though? Not as in real material difference? Just been BINO till now.
We have gone into wars in name only, pretty much the same life next day. A year or so down the line sheltering in the underground as the city, family and friends burn above, that’s no longer in name only.
The statement makes no sense as he cannot have a prompt and orderly transition given how he has already acted, even if he 180s now. Even if he wanted to wait for the formal certification and Electoral College vote before treating Biden as the President Elect, and even if he wanted to challenge various aspects as he'd be entitled to if there were concerns, there was a comparively orderly way to do that, and throwing wild accusations around with no merit was not it, though no doubt Andy will suggest a comment by Hilary is about the same level.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
Everything you said there is true, apart from... all of it.
Foxy. What did you make of the second in the Steve McQueen 'Small Axe' series?
I liked it, having lived with a West Indian bloke in a 2 bed flat in South London in the Eighties, I got some but not all the references. Great music, and acting and good to see a Black British story told that isn't centered on the sharp end of racism.
Me too. I liked it a lot. Brave of the BBC I thought. It was somewhere between an art installation and a film. I just hope people stay with it. Wonderfully shot
Apparently the first one did very poorly in the ratings, only just over 1 million tuned in for what is a prime slot.
That's disappointing. Real quality TV but if the first didn't find an audience the second certainly won't
Is it on iPlayer ?
Yes. I think the whole series was shot in 2019, so Mangrove anticipating the BLM issues of this year. Lovers Rock is much less overtly political, more boy meets girl, and coming of age.
Small Axe, Series 1: Lovers Rock: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000prjp via @bbciplayer
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
In name only though? Not as in real material difference? Just been BINO till now.
We have gone into wars in name only, pretty much the same life next day. A year or so down the line sheltering in the underground as the city, family and friends burn above, that’s no longer in name only.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
We're not still having the 'respect the vote' debate are we? Even as someone who voted Leave it was abundantly obvious that not everyone voted that way for the same reason, and that while certain things were likely to be broadly supported by most who voted Leave and in all likelihood should form the core of any outcome, the fact of the matter is that under our system it is up to parliament to decide how to respond to the vote, and the voters will cast judgement on that, but that cast iron talk of what does or does not respect the vote will go nowhere given both the variety of views from past and present Leave supporters, and need to govern for the whole country.
It just leads to Faragist 'not real Brexit' even if we had the most extreme scenario possible.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
Signing a free trade deal isn't a miracle, its just common bloody sense.
If the EU don't want to do so then that would be disappointing but no deal won't last forever. The EU fishermen will go out of business, the UK will adjust through the disruption that occurs and then we will ultimately begin negotiating a Canada style trade deal in both parties interests where we are looking to get closer together rather than further apart.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
We're not still having the 'respect the vote' debate are we? Even as someone who voted Leave it was abundantly obvious that not everyone voted that way for the same reason, and that while certain things were likely to be broadly supported by most who voted Leave and in all likelihood should form the core of any outcome, the fact of the matter is that under our system it is up to parliament to decide how to respond to the vote, and the voters will cast judgement on that, but that cast iron talk of what does or does not respect the vote will go nowhere given both the variety of views from past and present Leave supporters, and need to govern for the whole country.
It just leads to Faragist 'not real Brexit' even if we had the most extreme scenario possible.
A few things were made explicit before we had the referendum. Most notably that we were
Leaving the Single Market
Ending ECJ jurisdiction
Controlling our laws
Controlling our money
Controlling our borders
Controlling our sovereign waters
We would get a free trade deal
Any deal that does all of that respects the vote. No deal honours all but one, but a deal is better as it respects everything.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
Everything you said there is true, apart from... all of it.
So "take back control" wasn't part of the leave campaign? Laws, money and borders weren't mentioned by the leave campaign?
Just what do you think was part of the leave vote? 🤷🏻♂️
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
We're not still having the 'respect the vote' debate are we? Even as someone who voted Leave it was abundantly obvious that not everyone voted that way for the same reason, and that while certain things were likely to be broadly supported by most who voted Leave and in all likelihood should form the core of any outcome, the fact of the matter is that under our system it is up to parliament to decide how to respond to the vote, and the voters will cast judgement on that, but that cast iron talk of what does or does not respect the vote will go nowhere given both the variety of views from past and present Leave supporters, and need to govern for the whole country.
It just leads to Faragist 'not real Brexit' even if we had the most extreme scenario possible.
A few things were made explicit before we had the referendum. Most notably that we were
Leaving the Single Market
Ending ECJ jurisdiction
Controlling our laws
Controlling our money
Controlling our borders
Controlling our sovereign waters
We would get a free trade deal
Any deal that does all of that respects the vote. No deal honours all but one, but a deal is better as it respects everything.
You've rather missed my point that it doesn't matter what was 'made explicit' beforehand. A lot of things got said, and I'd support plenty of it, and in order to keep people happy in what they expect and be good for the country plenty of it should be sought, but if the government and parliament, for whatever reason, felt it needed to go another way then the actual question voted on will still have been respected because literally anything that means we've left respects the only unambiguous direction that was given by the vote. Campaigner statements, even government statements, of intent, don't mean jack.
To not seek many of those things would be greatly unsatisfactory to many, but 'respecting the vote' is neither here nor there, it's a distraction from people setting up for a 'no true scotsman' fallacy to nurse a grievance.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
We're not still having the 'respect the vote' debate are we? Even as someone who voted Leave it was abundantly obvious that not everyone voted that way for the same reason, and that while certain things were likely to be broadly supported by most who voted Leave and in all likelihood should form the core of any outcome, the fact of the matter is that under our system it is up to parliament to decide how to respond to the vote, and the voters will cast judgement on that, but that cast iron talk of what does or does not respect the vote will go nowhere given both the variety of views from past and present Leave supporters, and need to govern for the whole country.
It just leads to Faragist 'not real Brexit' even if we had the most extreme scenario possible.
A few things were made explicit before we had the referendum. Most notably that we were
Leaving the Single Market
Ending ECJ jurisdiction
Controlling our laws
Controlling our money
Controlling our borders
Controlling our sovereign waters
We would get a free trade deal
Any deal that does all of that respects the vote. No deal honours all but one, but a deal is better as it respects everything.
Vote Leave deliberately tried to muddy the waters. At one point they claimed that we weren't actually in the single market anyway because we weren't in Schengen.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
Philip, we are out. That is 100% of what was voted for; there is nothing else to ‘respect’.
If you want to talk respect, look at the majority who now tell pollsters the vote was a mistake. The reality is any future policy is now a matter of argument or political expedience.
In the US, spring break was credited with creating a lot of spread of covid. They are literally repeating the same mistake for Thanksgiving.
Or are they? It's pretty much rampant from Sea to Shining Sea. I don't see how anywhere can "seed" anywhere else at this point.
Young going home to spend days indoors with family...
Indeed. But it is out of control now anyways. Spring Break spread it. As did Sturgis, Trump rallies, etc.. This will just put a shiny top hat on and Turkey trimmings round the catastrophe. Before Trump says bye bye.
There will now be massive pressure to make a second series of The Queen’s Gambit. I hope there isn’t one. The story has a start, a middle and an end. A sequel is superfluous and will certainly be inferior.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
We're not still having the 'respect the vote' debate are we? Even as someone who voted Leave it was abundantly obvious that not everyone voted that way for the same reason, and that while certain things were likely to be broadly supported by most who voted Leave and in all likelihood should form the core of any outcome, the fact of the matter is that under our system it is up to parliament to decide how to respond to the vote, and the voters will cast judgement on that, but that cast iron talk of what does or does not respect the vote will go nowhere given both the variety of views from past and present Leave supporters, and need to govern for the whole country.
It just leads to Faragist 'not real Brexit' even if we had the most extreme scenario possible.
A few things were made explicit before we had the referendum. Most notably that we were
Leaving the Single Market
Ending ECJ jurisdiction
Controlling our laws
Controlling our money
Controlling our borders
Controlling our sovereign waters
We would get a free trade deal
Any deal that does all of that respects the vote. No deal honours all but one, but a deal is better as it respects everything.
You've rather missed my point that it doesn't matter what was 'made explicit' beforehand. A lot of things got said, and I'd support plenty of it, and in order to keep people happy in what they expect and be good for the country plenty of it should be sought, but if the government and parliament, for whatever reason, felt it needed to go another way then the actual question voted on will still have been respected because literally anything that means we've left respects the only unambiguous direction that was given by the vote. Campaigner statements, even government statements, of intent, don't mean jack.
To not seek many of those things would be greatly unsatisfactory to many, but 'respecting the vote' is neither here nor there, it's a distraction from people setting up for a 'no true scotsman' fallacy to nurse a grievance.
Sort of yes, sort of no.
Absolutely I 100% agree with you that Parliament determines, and we then hold Parliament to account. That is how we, as a Parliamentary democracy, take back control. We are not a direct democracy so absolutely it is in Parliament's gift to make any decision it wishes to do so and if we don't like that we can judge Parliament at the next election.
While legally or constitutionally "respecting the vote" is neither here nor there it is not just nursing a grievance, it is similar to a manifesto. There is a reason why that is where Theresa May drew her red lines, every single "red line" was a key plank of the campaigning. It was also part of the Tory Manifesto in 2019 as well as the 2016 referendum.
There is nothing in law to prevent a government from abandoning its manifesto. There is nothing even to prevent Parliament from doing the polar opposite of its manifesto. But without very good reason it is bad ethics and bad politics to do so. So it is relevant.
There will now be massive pressure to make a second series of The Queen’s Gambit. I hope there isn’t one. The story has a start, a middle and an end. A sequel is superfluous and will certainly be inferior.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
Philip, we are out. That is 100% of what was voted for; there is nothing else to ‘respect’.
If you want to talk respect, look at the majority who now tell pollsters the vote was a mistake. The reality is any future policy is now a matter of argument or political expedience.
You are HYUFD and I claim my £5
Polls don't matter. Votes matter.
People have been claiming practically since immediately after* the referendum that the polls showed people no longer wanted Brexit but despite not one but two General Elections during that time there have been election victories by Brexiteers.
Indeed everything I mentioned was not just part of the 2016 Vote Leave campaign, it was also a part of the 2019 Tory Manifesto that won an 80 seat majority. So 100% still relevant even without the referendum.
* Before the referendum of course we were told a majority wanted to remain, or that only a small minority cared about Europe so we should stop talking about it.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
The election was won because suburbanites in big houses, paying more tax on mortgage interest, left the Republicans and voted Democrat. AOC and pals have about half a dozen House seats in districts that are unrepresentative even of the ethnic minorities who are overwhelming majorities in their districts.
The statement makes no sense as he cannot have a prompt and orderly transition given how he has already acted, even if he 180s now. Even if he wanted to wait for the formal certification and Electoral College vote before treating Biden as the President Elect, and even if he wanted to challenge various aspects as he'd be entitled to if there were concerns, there was a comparively orderly way to do that, and throwing wild accusations around with no merit was not it, though no doubt Andy will suggest a comment by Hilary is about the same level.
"When you are in public life, people remember the last thing you do."
Trump stood in front of the White House. It was early January, and the White House Christmas tree was about to be disposed of. For Trump is was meant to be a low-key press event, a photo op in his last two weeks as President. The woodchipper is roaring. Trump is standing close, ready to ceremonially feed the first branch into its whirling, gnashing hopper. Trump's long red tie flapped around in the tail end of the January storm that had brought snow to parts of Maryland and Pennsylvania. Trump then stepped to his side, and dropped the branch in. As he spoke, his words were drowned out by the grinding wood and a strong gust of wind. His tie flicked him in the face causing him to recoil, and he thrust out an arm to steady himself. At the same time, on the lawn, a bank of photographers clicked greedily at the scene: a lame-duck President being buffeted by the weather and whose words were at last obscured by nature and machine. They were looking for a metaphor befitting the last days of a chaotic, self-defeating presidency. One more illustration of incompetence and hubris. One last front page. One final Trump splash.
There will now be massive pressure to make a second series of The Queen’s Gambit. I hope there isn’t one. The story has a start, a middle and an end. A sequel is superfluous and will certainly be inferior.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
Yep. And if anything is likely to unite the Dems, and a majority of the country it is the prospect of 4 years of Trump tweeting Q and promising another run.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
Philip, we are out. That is 100% of what was voted for; there is nothing else to ‘respect’.
If you want to talk respect, look at the majority who now tell pollsters the vote was a mistake. The reality is any future policy is now a matter of argument or political expedience.
You are HYUFD and I claim my £5
Polls don't matter. Votes matter.
People have been claiming practically since immediately after* the referendum that the polls showed people no longer wanted Brexit but despite not one but two General Elections during that time there have been election victories by Brexiteers.
Indeed everything I mentioned was not just part of the 2016 Vote Leave campaign, it was also a part of the 2019 Tory Manifesto that won an 80 seat majority. So 100% still relevant even without the referendum.
* Before the referendum of course we were told a majority wanted to remain, or that only a small minority cared about Europe so we should stop talking about it.
All I’m telling you is that the terms of the vote have been fulfilled. Any due respect for it is now expunged.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
Philip, we are out. That is 100% of what was voted for; there is nothing else to ‘respect’.
If you want to talk respect, look at the majority who now tell pollsters the vote was a mistake. The reality is any future policy is now a matter of argument or political expedience.
You are HYUFD and I claim my £5
Polls don't matter. Votes matter.
People have been claiming practically since immediately after* the referendum that the polls showed people no longer wanted Brexit but despite not one but two General Elections during that time there have been election victories by Brexiteers.
Indeed everything I mentioned was not just part of the 2016 Vote Leave campaign, it was also a part of the 2019 Tory Manifesto that won an 80 seat majority. So 100% still relevant even without the referendum.
* Before the referendum of course we were told a majority wanted to remain, or that only a small minority cared about Europe so we should stop talking about it.
All I’m telling you is that the terms of the vote have been fulfilled. Any due respect for it is now expunged.
And the 2019 Tory Manifesto commitments?
That happen to match the 2016 Vote Leave commitments, unsurprisingly given it was written and fronted by the same people. Is any due respect for the 2019 Tory Manifesto also expunged?
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
True, though I doubt they'll see it that way.
The appointments reflect reality. He can risk neither confirmation battles, nor House elections in anything but safe seats. Nor indeed the replacement of Senators by Republican governors.
And I think he might surprise Mr Ed with what he can achieve.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
Philip, we are out. That is 100% of what was voted for; there is nothing else to ‘respect’.
If you want to talk respect, look at the majority who now tell pollsters the vote was a mistake. The reality is any future policy is now a matter of argument or political expedience.
You are HYUFD and I claim my £5
Polls don't matter. Votes matter.
People have been claiming practically since immediately after* the referendum that the polls showed people no longer wanted Brexit but despite not one but two General Elections during that time there have been election victories by Brexiteers.
Indeed everything I mentioned was not just part of the 2016 Vote Leave campaign, it was also a part of the 2019 Tory Manifesto that won an 80 seat majority. So 100% still relevant even without the referendum.
* Before the referendum of course we were told a majority wanted to remain, or that only a small minority cared about Europe so we should stop talking about it.
All I’m telling you is that the terms of the vote have been fulfilled. Any due respect for it is now expunged.
And the 2019 Tory Manifesto commitments?
That happen to match the 2016 Vote Leave commitments, unsurprisingly given it was written and fronted by the same people. Is any due respect for the 2019 Tory Manifesto also expunged?
That’s entirely a matter for our mendacious PM. I certainly have no respect for it.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
Ho ho ho
You are Santa and I claim my I have been nice all year prize.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
Philip, we are out. That is 100% of what was voted for; there is nothing else to ‘respect’.
If you want to talk respect, look at the majority who now tell pollsters the vote was a mistake. The reality is any future policy is now a matter of argument or political expedience.
You are HYUFD and I claim my £5
Polls don't matter. Votes matter.
People have been claiming practically since immediately after* the referendum that the polls showed people no longer wanted Brexit but despite not one but two General Elections during that time there have been election victories by Brexiteers.
Indeed everything I mentioned was not just part of the 2016 Vote Leave campaign, it was also a part of the 2019 Tory Manifesto that won an 80 seat majority. So 100% still relevant even without the referendum.
* Before the referendum of course we were told a majority wanted to remain, or that only a small minority cared about Europe so we should stop talking about it.
All I’m telling you is that the terms of the vote have been fulfilled. Any due respect for it is now expunged.
And the 2019 Tory Manifesto commitments?
That happen to match the 2016 Vote Leave commitments, unsurprisingly given it was written and fronted by the same people. Is any due respect for the 2019 Tory Manifesto also expunged?
That’s entirely a matter for our mendacious PM. I certainly have no respect for it.
It isn't entirely a matter for the PM.
It is a matter for the PM, every single Tory MP elected upon that manifesto - and if they breach the manifesto then that becomes a matter for every single voter to keep in mind at the next election if they choose to do so.
Parliament has the right to break manifesto commitments. But doing so is not honourable and not smart politics in general.
There will now be massive pressure to make a second series of The Queen’s Gambit. I hope there isn’t one. The story has a start, a middle and an end. A sequel is superfluous and will certainly be inferior.
See Westworld....
Or Money Heist.
Kasparov, who consulted on the series, was not entirely dismissive of the idea of a sequel.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
Well, he did promise them with parts of his manifesto.
AOC may be a few members but she is very vocal and I'm not sure Warren and Sanders will be too chuffed either.
So far, his Cabinet is Obama Mk 2. I really can't see how that addresses the Democrat's issues.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
True, though I doubt they'll see it that way.
The appointments reflect reality. He can risk neither confirmation battles, nor House elections in anything but safe seats. Nor indeed the replacement of Senators by Republican governors.
And I think he might surprise Mr Ed with what he can achieve.
We will wait and see Nigel, will be an interesting few years.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
Well, he did promise them with parts of his manifesto.
AOC may be a few members but she is very vocal and I'm not sure Warren and Sanders will be too chuffed either.
So far, his Cabinet is Obama Mk 2. I really can't see how that addresses the Democrat's issues.
They agreed on policy but he didn't promise them appointments, that was a right-wing fever dream.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
Well, he did promise them with parts of his manifesto.
AOC may be a few members but she is very vocal and I'm not sure Warren and Sanders will be too chuffed either.
So far, his Cabinet is Obama Mk 2. I really can't see how that addresses the Democrat's issues.
That will be the Obama who won two elections and for whom Biden was the loyal Veep for all eight years and Biden effectively ran his campaign as being Obama Mk 2?
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
Philip, we are out. That is 100% of what was voted for; there is nothing else to ‘respect’.
If you want to talk respect, look at the majority who now tell pollsters the vote was a mistake. The reality is any future policy is now a matter of argument or political expedience.
You are HYUFD and I claim my £5
Polls don't matter. Votes matter.
People have been claiming practically since immediately after* the referendum that the polls showed people no longer wanted Brexit but despite not one but two General Elections during that time there have been election victories by Brexiteers.
Indeed everything I mentioned was not just part of the 2016 Vote Leave campaign, it was also a part of the 2019 Tory Manifesto that won an 80 seat majority. So 100% still relevant even without the referendum.
* Before the referendum of course we were told a majority wanted to remain, or that only a small minority cared about Europe so we should stop talking about it.
All I’m telling you is that the terms of the vote have been fulfilled. Any due respect for it is now expunged.
And the 2019 Tory Manifesto commitments?
That happen to match the 2016 Vote Leave commitments, unsurprisingly given it was written and fronted by the same people. Is any due respect for the 2019 Tory Manifesto also expunged?
That’s entirely a matter for our mendacious PM. I certainly have no respect for it.
It isn't entirely a matter for the PM.
It is a matter for the PM, every single Tory MP elected upon that manifesto - and if they breach the manifesto then that becomes a matter for every single voter to keep in mind at the next election if they choose to do so.
Parliament has the right to break manifesto commitments. But doing so is not honourable and not smart politics in general.
Likewise if they plough ahead regardless and cause economic hardship. We’ll see how much respect that commands.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
And that was always true.
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
A Canada style FTA can appease enough of the base while still respecting the Leave vote and protecting the economy
Leave vote has already been respected; we're outside the EU right now.
The leave vote was to "take back control" of our laws, money and borders.
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
Philip, we are out. That is 100% of what was voted for; there is nothing else to ‘respect’.
If you want to talk respect, look at the majority who now tell pollsters the vote was a mistake. The reality is any future policy is now a matter of argument or political expedience.
You are HYUFD and I claim my £5
Polls don't matter. Votes matter.
People have been claiming practically since immediately after* the referendum that the polls showed people no longer wanted Brexit but despite not one but two General Elections during that time there have been election victories by Brexiteers.
Indeed everything I mentioned was not just part of the 2016 Vote Leave campaign, it was also a part of the 2019 Tory Manifesto that won an 80 seat majority. So 100% still relevant even without the referendum.
* Before the referendum of course we were told a majority wanted to remain, or that only a small minority cared about Europe so we should stop talking about it.
All I’m telling you is that the terms of the vote have been fulfilled. Any due respect for it is now expunged.
And the 2019 Tory Manifesto commitments?
That happen to match the 2016 Vote Leave commitments, unsurprisingly given it was written and fronted by the same people. Is any due respect for the 2019 Tory Manifesto also expunged?
That’s entirely a matter for our mendacious PM. I certainly have no respect for it.
It isn't entirely a matter for the PM.
It is a matter for the PM, every single Tory MP elected upon that manifesto - and if they breach the manifesto then that becomes a matter for every single voter to keep in mind at the next election if they choose to do so.
Parliament has the right to break manifesto commitments. But doing so is not honourable and not smart politics in general.
Likewise if they plough ahead regardless and cause economic hardship. We’ll see how much respect that commands.
Anyway, time for sleep.
Absolutely agreed.
Though if they thought that it was going to cause economic hardship then one would wonder why they chose to repeatedly make such commitments?
Personally I disagree with you and others on this site on this subject precisely because I am not expecting economic hardship from a no deal Brexit. Disruption yes, but negligible compared to Covid.
If they choose not to plough on and to break their commitments then that would just leave them treacherous liars to their own supporters because we will not have taken 'the path not followed' and so we are not going to be convinced that what we voted for less than a year ago was a bad idea.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
Well, he did promise them with parts of his manifesto.
AOC may be a few members but she is very vocal and I'm not sure Warren and Sanders will be too chuffed either.
So far, his Cabinet is Obama Mk 2. I really can't see how that addresses the Democrat's issues.
Obama Mk2 would be an improvement on now. Obama's final approval ratings in office (and not even his highest) was higher than the highest Trump managed in his entire presidency...
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
True, though I doubt they'll see it that way.
The appointments reflect reality. He can risk neither confirmation battles, nor House elections in anything but safe seats. Nor indeed the replacement of Senators by Republican governors.
And I think he might surprise Mr Ed with what he can achieve.
We will wait and see Nigel, will be an interesting few years.
If Biden’s got any sense he will do his utmost to ensure the next four years are anything but interesting. I think we’ve all had our fill of living in interesting times.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
True, though I doubt they'll see it that way.
The appointments reflect reality. He can risk neither confirmation battles, nor House elections in anything but safe seats. Nor indeed the replacement of Senators by Republican governors.
And I think he might surprise Mr Ed with what he can achieve.
We will wait and see Nigel, will be an interesting few years.
If Biden’s got any sense he will do his utmost to ensure the next four years are anything but interesting. I think we’ve all had our fill of living in interesting times.
In particular he should try and be popular and make easy Presidential decisions for the next two years and not stoke any divisions. He has one more opportunity in two years time to win the Senate - the 2022 midterms will be for Senators last voted for in 2016 when every single Senator elected in that election matched how that state voted in the Presidential election - the only time that has ever occurred in the entire history of the United States of America.
Biden obviously won a number of states that Trump won in 2016. The Republicans are defending a lot of Senators in 2022 in "purple" states and so the Democrats have a rare opportunity to make net gains in the Senate while holding the Oval Office.
“Some sort of a deal, some scrap of a deal, gives us something to build on”?
So the only way for leavers to save brexit is the no deal brexit route. Any form of compromise, any form of deal, is just allowing remainers to build us back closer in future.
For diehard No Deal Brexiteers the only acceptable form of Brexit is one that bricks up the channel tunnel and blows up Dover
So who thinks the future of this we will be build back closer? And closer, And closer.
Boris and his government have made it clear, demonstrating the fact, no further national votes are required before signing deals with EU, because he’s not having one on this deal.
There will certainly be a lot of political impetus toward that. However, I think having left, there are now larger dynamic forces at play that will pull us further apart from the continent politically and economically, regardless of what some politicians would like.
larger dynamic forces will find it hard to overcome a significant land border oin NI and literally millions of EU citizens living here and millions of UK citizens there, with 2 commonwealth members (3 if you include Gib) entrenched within EU terrirtory....whilst our biggest non EU partners arent allowing entry under any circumstances..
There will now be massive pressure to make a second series of The Queen’s Gambit. I hope there isn’t one. The story has a start, a middle and an end. A sequel is superfluous and will certainly be inferior.
Queen's Gambit Declined?
King's Gambit, surely. Would it have to be connected to the original in any way?
BTW, I watched the Hamish MacInnes documentary referred to earlier, which was very good.
His mountaineering exploits are well known, but the treatment by the NHS of old people who don't happen to have an advocate at the time is what struck me. I've seen this more than once personally, and once with exactly the same problem as Hamish. There is an assumption that if you present as doolally then that's how you are. It takes someone to come in and say - no, this isn't right, they might be old but they aren't normally like this - before they get treated properly. It needs sorting.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
True, though I doubt they'll see it that way.
The appointments reflect reality. He can risk neither confirmation battles, nor House elections in anything but safe seats. Nor indeed the replacement of Senators by Republican governors.
And I think he might surprise Mr Ed with what he can achieve.
We will wait and see Nigel, will be an interesting few years.
If Biden’s got any sense he will do his utmost to ensure the next four years are anything but interesting. I think we’ve all had our fill of living in interesting times.
In particular he should try and be popular and make easy Presidential decisions for the next two years and not stoke any divisions. He has one more opportunity in two years time to win the Senate - the 2022 midterms will be for Senators last voted for in 2016 when every single Senator elected in that election matched how that state voted in the Presidential election - the only time that has ever occurred in the entire history of the United States of America.
Biden obviously won a number of states that Trump won in 2016. The Republicans are defending a lot of Senators in 2022 in "purple" states and so the Democrats have a rare opportunity to make net gains in the Senate while holding the Oval Office.
What Biden needs to do in 2021 is end the pandemic. As a happy coincidence, this will take him to the mid-terms. Now the vaccines are almost here, it's mainly about competence rather than ideology, though some states won't make it easy. Has Biden announced who will run this? It might be that Biden can bypass Senate approval on this appointment though I've no idea what the rules are on this.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
Surely you want the best for the US, whoever is in power?
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
If so I would be very content. Republicanism without Trump - wntl!
The problem for Biden is that he can't really do nothing - Trump has left America's global leadership in tatters in crucial areas like climate change, restraining Chinese and Russian aggression, and maintaining the global liberal economic order, so all of that needs to be reversed if the US wants to retain its role as the dominant hyperpower - but his administration is going to get kicked in the shins by the radical left and radical right the moment it attempts to do anything to correct Trump's failures.
I'm not a huge fan of the Democrats but I was very much hoping they'd magange to stop navel gazing, win decisively against a terrible opponent, and get the solid Presidential/House/Senate majority they'd need to rebuild American grand strategy. Instead, I'm terrified we have the worst of all worlds: a GOP refusing to admit defeat in control of the Senate, giving them power to block or stymie legislation, leading to a lame duck Biden administration that can't introduce the big changes the US needs to compete with China, followed by a less stupid, more competent Trumpite authoritarian taking the Presidency back for the Republicans in 2024.
I wake up and find that Trump has finally relented/
Re one or two posts below, if the Dems don't win in Georgia x 2 then I still don't think we'd end up in an Obama situation. Joe Biden is a very good negotiator and I am pretty sure he will succeed with legislation, without resorting to Executive powers.
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
If so I would be very content. Republicanism without Trump - wntl!
Capitalism with a soft heart.
It's a very successful formula. Tony Blair did it.
Good to wake up to at least one newspaper going with the responsible headline. Hopefully the message is getting across that the nightmare is nearly over, but not quite yet. A few more weeks of everyone being sensible and taking precautions, then life will be able to get back to something approaching normal.
The same can't be said of the US, where millions appear to be travelling across the country for Thanksgiving, their already-big spike is likely to become somewhat bigger in the coming weeks.
The problem for Biden is that he can't really do nothing - Trump has left America's global leadership in tatters in crucial areas like climate change, restraining Chinese and Russian aggression, and maintaining the global liberal economic order, so all of that needs to be reversed if the US wants to retain its role as the dominant hyperpower - but his administration is going to get kicked in the shins by the radical left and radical right the moment it attempts to do anything to correct Trump's failures.
I'm not a huge fan of the Democrats but I was very much hoping they'd magange to stop navel gazing, win decisively against a terrible opponent, and get the solid Presidential/House/Senate majority they'd need to rebuild American grand strategy. Instead, I'm terrified we have the worst of all worlds: a GOP refusing to admit defeat in control of the Senate, giving them power to block or stymie legislation, leading to a lame duck Biden administration that can't introduce the big changes the US needs to compete with China, followed by a less stupid, more competent Trumpite authoritarian taking the Presidency back for the Republicans in 2024.
The problem is that there are four blocs of varying strength: on the extreme left you have the identity warriors, which the Dems need to keep on side. On the other hand, they aren't anywhere near as big or as powerful as the authoritarian isolationists (or Trumpers), who make up half the support of the Republican party. And who now outnumber the other half of the Republican party - the business minded, broadly free trade, low regulation, keep the government out of my hair. These groups have very little in common, except their opposition to some of the Democratic Party.
And then you have the moderately left wing, wouldn't really be that out of place in the UK's Conservatives, shouldn't we engage with the world bunch (i.e. Biden-ites).
As an aside, most Presidents do best when forced to deal with hostile Congress: Reagan had to deal with a Democratic House for almost his entire eight years. Bush Sr got a Republican one, and lost the Presidency.
Clinton was going down a blind alley, until he lucked out and ended up with a Republican Congress and was therefore forced to compromise. You could make a similar argument about Obama. Only Bush Jr, who has 9/11 on his watch, had to deal with a friendly Congress for most of his time in Office.
Indeed, I would argue that had Trump done what Clinton and Obama did when faced with a hostile Congress and tacked hard towards the centre, then he would have been able to portray the Democrats as the loonies, and held on to the Presidency.
But Trump prefers conflict to compromise, because that's what fires up the base.
I totally agree with Robert below. I think that's absolute right.
I think we're affected by what happened with Obama but, by virtually all accounts, he had absolutely zero negotiating or inter-personal skills.
He is in this respect totally different from Joe Biden who is a very smooth operator. He has famously struck deals across the divide and works with moderate Republicans.
It will be a very successful, one-term, Presidency.
And I'm far from convinced that Biden wants a radical agenda anyway. Things like rejoining WHO and the Paris Climate Accord are not going to be stymied by Congress (they're Executive orders anyway) and protecting the Good Friday Agreement will have HUGE support on the hill.
As mentioned by someone below, his main task is going to be controlling and then ending the pandemic. If the vaccines are as brilliant and safe as hoped then the US is going to look like a parallel universe two years from now. I wouldn't bet against the Dems in 2022. Biden has a huge amount of luck on his side*. And you need that to be a brilliant politician.
* this comment is tempered because, god only knows, he has suffered more than most in his personal life
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
If so I would be very content. Republicanism without Trump - wntl!
Capitalism with a soft heart.
It's a very successful formula. Tony Blair did it.
Especially well in Iraq if my memory serves me well. The soft heart wrt immigration cotributed to the decision to leave the EU inho reason. Centrist parties are normally more successful in most countries but when they go too far one way or the other......
Haha, no need to worry about me @TSE, I finally got my final set of winnings from Ladbrokes on the Trump 45%+ / 45-50% of the vote. It's been a very profitable election which will enable me to more than pay for all the popcorn necessary as I watch the Democrat sh1tshow unfurl over the next 4 years. Increasing frustration, splits in the party, loss of the House in 2022 to name a few - and likely starting off with the losses in Georgia in January. I mean, I can really imagine BLM / the AOC Squad delighted over the picks so far for Biden's cabinet - Yellen, Blinken, Jake Sullivan et al. It's Obama Mk 2 and with likely the same (lack of) success. They will probably toss in Randi Weingarden as the Education Secretary to appease the unions but Biden has truly stiffed the left by the looks of things.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
He didn't *stiff* them, he beat them in the primary and he never promised them anything.
True, though I doubt they'll see it that way.
The appointments reflect reality. He can risk neither confirmation battles, nor House elections in anything but safe seats. Nor indeed the replacement of Senators by Republican governors.
And I think he might surprise Mr Ed with what he can achieve.
We will wait and see Nigel, will be an interesting few years.
Promising start, and he’s still a month or so from office.
I'm not sure that overuse of the little red warning notes will not rapidly prove counterproductive once they move beyond factual information and into political opinion - unless they are clearly even-handed in their usage. will, eg, 'we wuz robbed'! be followed by the red warning every time. It becomes plain silly and patronising to the general public who really have a right to listen to the arguments and make their own minds up.
Comments
This is verifiably false on 2 accounts. The rest of the press have realised this and corrected their reporting.
The supposed job of the press is to cut through and expose the facts. A 5bn a year organization with supposedly world class journalism has consistently over the past 9 months been wrong.
Hoo-bloody-rah!
I think all of Leicester will be in Tier 2, with the City, Oadby and Wigston and probably Charnwood in the highest Tier, so local to me in deep trouble
At some point, the Conservative Party decided to embrace the diehards, bring them (and their votes) on board. And I understand the tactics. They won elections.
But the strategy, as with the Republican embrace of Trumpism, was predictably calamitous. Because the true diehards would always go one step further, no matter how far from the mainstream that went. Whatever the Republicans do next- back Trump or shun him- will infuriate a third of their support base. Unless a miracle happens in Brussels, the Conservative choice is to infuriate their Brexit diehards or seriously stunt economic growth. The devil's come to claim his due, so pick your poison.
The trouble with riding a tiger is when the time comes to get off.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1331013907859845121?s=20
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1331013908971261953?s=20
https://twitter.com/senbillcassidy/status/1331013512605405184?s=21
Small Axe, Series 1: Lovers Rock: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000prjp via @bbciplayer
She seems to have chartered an equally haphazard course in arriving at the decision.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/18/politics/biden-transition-trump-delay/index.html
We're outside of the EU right now but haven't taken back control of anything yet. To leave de jure but to remain a member de facto would not respect the vote.
We have gone into wars in name only, pretty much the same life next day. A year or so down the line sheltering in the underground as the city, family and friends burn above, that’s no longer in name only.
For Joe Anderson, Liverpool’s rumbustious city mayor, it was like “a viper showing its teeth to you – its intention is to poison you”.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/nov/23/liverpool-mayor-tory-praise-viper-showing-teeth
If they hadn't given any praise, he would.be complaining about same old Tories not giving a shit about Liverpool.
It just leads to Faragist 'not real Brexit' even if we had the most extreme scenario possible.
If the EU don't want to do so then that would be disappointing but no deal won't last forever. The EU fishermen will go out of business, the UK will adjust through the disruption that occurs and then we will ultimately begin negotiating a Canada style trade deal in both parties interests where we are looking to get closer together rather than further apart.
It's pretty much rampant from Sea to Shining Sea.
I don't see how anywhere can "seed" anywhere else at this point.
- Leaving the Single Market
- Ending ECJ jurisdiction
- Controlling our laws
- Controlling our money
- Controlling our borders
- Controlling our sovereign waters
- We would get a free trade deal
Any deal that does all of that respects the vote. No deal honours all but one, but a deal is better as it respects everything.Laws, money and borders weren't mentioned by the leave campaign?
Just what do you think was part of the leave vote? 🤷🏻♂️
To not seek many of those things would be greatly unsatisfactory to many, but 'respecting the vote' is neither here nor there, it's a distraction from people setting up for a 'no true scotsman' fallacy to nurse a grievance.
https://twitter.com/vote_leave/status/706456423299993600
That is 100% of what was voted for; there is nothing else to ‘respect’.
If you want to talk respect, look at the majority who now tell pollsters the vote was a mistake.
The reality is any future policy is now a matter of argument or political expedience.
This will just put a shiny top hat on and Turkey trimmings round the catastrophe. Before Trump says bye bye.
It is likely to be the almighty Pyrrhic victory.
Absolutely I 100% agree with you that Parliament determines, and we then hold Parliament to account. That is how we, as a Parliamentary democracy, take back control. We are not a direct democracy so absolutely it is in Parliament's gift to make any decision it wishes to do so and if we don't like that we can judge Parliament at the next election.
While legally or constitutionally "respecting the vote" is neither here nor there it is not just nursing a grievance, it is similar to a manifesto. There is a reason why that is where Theresa May drew her red lines, every single "red line" was a key plank of the campaigning. It was also part of the Tory Manifesto in 2019 as well as the 2016 referendum.
There is nothing in law to prevent a government from abandoning its manifesto. There is nothing even to prevent Parliament from doing the polar opposite of its manifesto. But without very good reason it is bad ethics and bad politics to do so. So it is relevant.
https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1331023040998760451
Polls don't matter. Votes matter.
People have been claiming practically since immediately after* the referendum that the polls showed people no longer wanted Brexit but despite not one but two General Elections during that time there have been election victories by Brexiteers.
Indeed everything I mentioned was not just part of the 2016 Vote Leave campaign, it was also a part of the 2019 Tory Manifesto that won an 80 seat majority. So 100% still relevant even without the referendum.
* Before the referendum of course we were told a majority wanted to remain, or that only a small minority cared about Europe so we should stop talking about it.
Trump stood in front of the White House. It was early January, and the White House Christmas tree was about to be disposed of. For Trump is was meant to be a low-key press event, a photo op in his last two weeks as President.
The woodchipper is roaring. Trump is standing close, ready to ceremonially feed the first branch into its whirling, gnashing hopper. Trump's long red tie flapped around in the tail end of the January storm that had brought snow to parts of Maryland and Pennsylvania.
Trump then stepped to his side, and dropped the branch in. As he spoke, his words were drowned out by the grinding wood and a strong gust of wind. His tie flicked him in the face causing him to recoil, and he thrust out an arm to steady himself. At the same time, on the lawn, a bank of photographers clicked greedily at the scene: a lame-duck President being buffeted by the weather and whose words were at last obscured by nature and machine. They were looking for a metaphor befitting the last days of a chaotic, self-defeating presidency. One more illustration of incompetence and hubris. One last front page. One final Trump splash.
Any due respect for it is now expunged.
That happen to match the 2016 Vote Leave commitments, unsurprisingly given it was written and fronted by the same people. Is any due respect for the 2019 Tory Manifesto also expunged?
He can risk neither confirmation battles, nor House elections in anything but safe seats. Nor indeed the replacement of Senators by Republican governors.
And I think he might surprise Mr Ed with what he can achieve.
I certainly have no respect for it.
It is a matter for the PM, every single Tory MP elected upon that manifesto - and if they breach the manifesto then that becomes a matter for every single voter to keep in mind at the next election if they choose to do so.
Parliament has the right to break manifesto commitments. But doing so is not honourable and not smart politics in general.
Kasparov, who consulted on the series, was not entirely dismissive of the idea of a sequel.
AOC may be a few members but she is very vocal and I'm not sure Warren and Sanders will be too chuffed either.
So far, his Cabinet is Obama Mk 2. I really can't see how that addresses the Democrat's issues.
Seems to be expected.
We’ll see how much respect that commands.
Anyway, time for sleep.
Though if they thought that it was going to cause economic hardship then one would wonder why they chose to repeatedly make such commitments?
Personally I disagree with you and others on this site on this subject precisely because I am not expecting economic hardship from a no deal Brexit. Disruption yes, but negligible compared to Covid.
If they choose not to plough on and to break their commitments then that would just leave them treacherous liars to their own supporters because we will not have taken 'the path not followed' and so we are not going to be convinced that what we voted for less than a year ago was a bad idea.
Goodnight.
Obama's final approval ratings in office (and not even his highest) was higher than the highest Trump managed in his entire presidency...
...by ten clear points!
Biden obviously won a number of states that Trump won in 2016. The Republicans are defending a lot of Senators in 2022 in "purple" states and so the Democrats have a rare opportunity to make net gains in the Senate while holding the Oval Office.
Biden 1.03
Democrats 1.03
Biden PV 1.02
Biden PV 49-51.9% 1.02
Trump PV 46-48.9% 1.03
Trump ECV 210-239 1.05
Biden ECV 300-329 1.05
Biden ECV Hcap -48.5 1.03
Biden ECV Hcap -63.5 1.05
Trump ECV Hcap +81.5 1.02
AZ Dem 1.03
GA Dem 1.03
MI Dem 1.02
NV Dem 1.03
PA Dem 1.03
WI Dem 1.03
Trump to leave before end of term NO 1.09
Trump exit date 2021 1.06
BTW, I watched the Hamish MacInnes documentary referred to earlier, which was very good.
His mountaineering exploits are well known, but the treatment by the NHS of old people who don't happen to have an advocate at the time is what struck me. I've seen this more than once personally, and once with exactly the same problem as Hamish. There is an assumption that if you present as doolally then that's how you are. It takes someone to come in and say - no, this isn't right, they might be old but they aren't normally like this - before they get treated properly. It needs sorting.
I'm not a huge fan of the Democrats but I was very much hoping they'd magange to stop navel gazing, win decisively against a terrible opponent, and get the solid Presidential/House/Senate majority they'd need to rebuild American grand strategy. Instead, I'm terrified we have the worst of all worlds: a GOP refusing to admit defeat in control of the Senate, giving them power to block or stymie legislation, leading to a lame duck Biden administration that can't introduce the big changes the US needs to compete with China, followed by a less stupid, more competent Trumpite authoritarian taking the Presidency back for the Republicans in 2024.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/22/supreme-court-election-law-voting-rights-438844
Re one or two posts below, if the Dems don't win in Georgia x 2 then I still don't think we'd end up in an Obama situation. Joe Biden is a very good negotiator and I am pretty sure he will succeed with legislation, without resorting to Executive powers.
Now that would be something
It's a very successful formula. Tony Blair did it.
The same can't be said of the US, where millions appear to be travelling across the country for Thanksgiving, their already-big spike is likely to become somewhat bigger in the coming weeks.
And then you have the moderately left wing, wouldn't really be that out of place in the UK's Conservatives, shouldn't we engage with the world bunch (i.e. Biden-ites).
Clinton was going down a blind alley, until he lucked out and ended up with a Republican Congress and was therefore forced to compromise. You could make a similar argument about Obama. Only Bush Jr, who has 9/11 on his watch, had to deal with a friendly Congress for most of his time in Office.
Indeed, I would argue that had Trump done what Clinton and Obama did when faced with a hostile Congress and tacked hard towards the centre, then he would have been able to portray the Democrats as the loonies, and held on to the Presidency.
But Trump prefers conflict to compromise, because that's what fires up the base.
I think we're affected by what happened with Obama but, by virtually all accounts, he had absolutely zero negotiating or inter-personal skills.
He is in this respect totally different from Joe Biden who is a very smooth operator. He has famously struck deals across the divide and works with moderate Republicans.
It will be a very successful, one-term, Presidency.
As mentioned by someone below, his main task is going to be controlling and then ending the pandemic. If the vaccines are as brilliant and safe as hoped then the US is going to look like a parallel universe two years from now. I wouldn't bet against the Dems in 2022. Biden has a huge amount of luck on his side*. And you need that to be a brilliant politician.
* this comment is tempered because, god only knows, he has suffered more than most in his personal life
G.M. Drops Its Support for Trump Climate Rollbacks and Aligns With Biden
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/23/climate/general-motors-trump.html