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Trump’s ongoing denial about the election results isn’t going down well with voters – politicalbetti

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 19 in General
imageTrump’s ongoing denial about the election results isn’t going down well with voters – politicalbetting.com

A Hill-Harris poll with a sample of 4k+ has just been published and finds that even the majority of Republican voters think Trump needs to concede.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 7,785
    primus inter pares
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,625
    From previous thread, where xmas was being debated:

    I've already heard from several people that they are planning to do a normal xmas and "the government can get stuffed".
  • Democracy is more important than your own side winning.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 7,735

    From previous thread, where xmas was being debated:

    I've already heard from several people that they are planning to do a normal xmas and "the government can get stuffed".

    Best to stuff the turkey, not the government!
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 4,649
    OGH said: "Meanwhile await the outcome of the Georgia recount."

    Why? Nothing will change. Even if Trump could swing he would still be a loser.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 33,988
    edited November 19
    Pagan2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    DavidL said:

    Heard Obama interview on R4 this morning. It made be all nostalgic for the days when we had politicians capable of being articulate and thinking in complete sentences. The man wasn't a great success as President, he achieved far less than might have been hoped, but my goodness can he speak.

    Am i the only one on here who thinks he was a superb president?

    Phenomenal domestic policy achievements. Probably an A- president. The best since probably Truman/FDR.
    You mean things has the horribly flawed obamacare which resulted in lots of poorer americans having hours reduced so the company didnt have to supply health insurance and at the same time had to pay out money under threat of a fine due to the legislation? A stunning triumph....I know many of my american friends would disagree
    The Affordable Care Act's pre-existing conditions provisions are pretty popular. They are a real life saver (literally) for people with conditions who find themselves having to provide their own healthcare.

    I just Googled and found this polling: https://morningconsult.com/2020/09/29/obamacare-support-polling-supreme-court/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 33,988

    Democracy is more important than your own side winning.

    Yes.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,625
    Is twitter down?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 19,566

    From previous thread, where xmas was being debated:

    I've already heard from several people that they are planning to do a normal xmas and "the government can get stuffed".

    Except it may well be their relatives that get stuffed...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,625

    Democracy is more important than your own side winning.

    You have a republic madam, if you can keep it.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 1,328
    edited November 19
    rcs1000 said:

    Democracy is more important than your own side winning.

    Yes.
    I agree, but as a country we can't really talk given our history between 2016 and 2019. However long Trump stays, he will be gone long before 2023.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,634
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    DavidL said:

    Heard Obama interview on R4 this morning. It made be all nostalgic for the days when we had politicians capable of being articulate and thinking in complete sentences. The man wasn't a great success as President, he achieved far less than might have been hoped, but my goodness can he speak.

    Am i the only one on here who thinks he was a superb president?

    Phenomenal domestic policy achievements. Probably an A- president. The best since probably Truman/FDR.
    You mean things has the horribly flawed obamacare which resulted in lots of poorer americans having hours reduced so the company didnt have to supply health insurance and at the same time had to pay out money under threat of a fine due to the legislation? A stunning triumph....I know many of my american friends would disagree
    The Affordable Care Act's pre-existing conditions provisions are pretty popular. They are a real life saver (literally) for people with conditions who find themselves having to provide their own healthcare.
    The aca certainly benefitted some it also disadvantaged some was the point I was making, I certainly know people that had their hours reduced to below the 30 hours needed to qualify as a full time employee for purposes of the act. I suspect they have rather a different view of obamacare. I also know people who had a company health plan but because it didnt cover all the things the ACA said it had to that the premiums were raised to the point the company no longer offered a health plan.

    There are people who got better health care, there are also people that if affected quite negatively
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 12,495

    From previous thread, where xmas was being debated:

    I've already heard from several people that they are planning to do a normal xmas and "the government can get stuffed".

    And the rest of us will be locked down throughout January thanks to this fuckwittery.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,293
    edited November 19

    From previous thread, where xmas was being debated:

    I've already heard from several people that they are planning to do a normal xmas and "the government can get stuffed".

    Celebrate Christmas. It may be the last time you see your loved ones.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,325
    Look, I'm not saying the situation is serious but the NY Times couldn't even do a "both sides" headline

  • MiljoMiljo Posts: 1
    At Betfair right now, £21m is there for those who wish to back Biden at between 1.03 and 1.05. The overall amount matched so far in the WH2020 market is £790m.

    The interesting thing for me isn't why Betfair are keeping the market open, which they are fully entitled to do. It's why there continues to be such high liquidity.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 12,495
    dixiedean said:

    From previous thread, where xmas was being debated:

    I've already heard from several people that they are planning to do a normal xmas and "the government can get stuffed".

    Celebrate Christmas. It may be the last time you see your loved ones.
    You need the word 'and' after Christmas.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,311
    FPT.
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Just watching Steve McQueen's 'Mangrove'. If it's even half accurate this country hasn't got much to be proud of
    It was very good indeed, about time some Black British stories were told.
    Excellent. Like a stage play. One of the UK's most talented directors. At first it looked like it was being laid on with a trowel but thanks to te theatricality he got away with it. BBC at its best
  • We are literally weeks away from vaccinations starting and some are losing their minds like this is never going to end so let's go crazy.

    It is insane.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,625
    Miljo said:

    At Betfair right now, £21m is there for those who wish to back Biden at between 1.03 and 1.05. The overall amount matched so far in the WH2020 market is £790m.

    The interesting thing for me isn't why Betfair are keeping the market open, which they are fully entitled to do. It's why there continues to be such high liquidity.

    We are all wondering that. And welcome.
  • Good take on Trump reaction...

    In this episode of the podcast, Sam Harris discusses President Trump’s failure to concede the 2020 presidential election.

    https://samharris.org/podcasts/225-republic-lies/
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,325
    Miljo said:

    At Betfair right now, £21m is there for those who wish to back Biden at between 1.03 and 1.05. The overall amount matched so far in the WH2020 market is £790m.

    The interesting thing for me isn't why Betfair are keeping the market open, which they are fully entitled to do. It's why there continues to be such high liquidity.

    Dem Majority in House and Senate market still had a non zero amount of money in it in a market that cannot possibly settle for Yes.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 11,317

    We are literally weeks away from vaccinations starting and some are losing their minds like this is never going to end so let's go crazy.

    It is insane.

    Are we?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,311
    Laura K doesn't hold out too much hope for Patel.

    Wonderful news . The worst of a truly appalling cabinet
  • A 1 million a day, sounds like Boris has been making up targets again...

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,293

    dixiedean said:

    From previous thread, where xmas was being debated:

    I've already heard from several people that they are planning to do a normal xmas and "the government can get stuffed".

    Celebrate Christmas. It may be the last time you see your loved ones.
    You need the word 'and' after Christmas.
    It was subtly (obviously too subtly) implied.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 6,071
    edited November 19
    Michigan House of Representatives has 58 Republicans and 52 Democrats.

    Michigan Senate has 22 Republicans and 16 Democrats.

    So Republicans have clear majority but in neither case an overwhelming one.

    Will enough Republicans stick to the Party line and vote to overturn the election?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Legislature#Michigan_Senate
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,625
    Alistair said:

    Look, I'm not saying the situation is serious but the NY Times couldn't even do a "both sides" headline

    One of those summoned said on Tuesday that the result would not be changed. Now he is not responding to requests for comment.

    Hope that doesn't mean he's busy changing his mind.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 49,740

    A 1 million a day, sounds like Boris has been making up targets again...

    I don't doubt they are going to try and get the rates up as high as possible. I hope you don't mind being given the jab by a squaddie.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 49,740

    We are literally weeks away from vaccinations starting and some are losing their minds like this is never going to end so let's go crazy.

    It is insane.

    Are we?
    I think so, this side of Christmas it'll start.
  • BBC News - Coronavirus: Europe faces 'six tough months' of pandemic, WHO says
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55008447

    Again no mention of Poland.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,311

    A 1 million a day, sounds like Boris has been making up targets again...

    Are we supposed to recognise 'Holly' from her breasts?
  • isamisam Posts: 34,623
    edited November 19
    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron did too in his time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types
  • We are literally weeks away from vaccinations starting and some are losing their minds like this is never going to end so let's go crazy.

    It is insane.

    And before Christmas the government is letting in people from countries with far higher covid levels so that they can work in meat processing plants which are notorious for covid outbreaks.

    When a government does something that fuckwitted its not surprising that people think they can ignore guidelines.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,625


    Oh FFS.

    Politics and medicine. What a foul mixture.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 621

    We are literally weeks away from vaccinations starting and some are losing their minds like this is never going to end so let's go crazy.

    It is insane.

    Are we?
    Local news had surgeries rushing to finish flu shots as there needs to be a week between that and coronavirus. Implication it is imminent (2 weeks was mentioned).
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,625

    We are literally weeks away from vaccinations starting and some are losing their minds like this is never going to end so let's go crazy.

    It is insane.

    And before Christmas the government is letting in people from countries with far higher covid levels so that they can work in meat processing plants which are notorious for covid outbreaks.

    When a government does something that fuckwitted its not surprising that people think they can ignore guidelines.
    Wait until you hear their plans for letting hundreds of thousands go skiing at half term in virus hotspots of europe.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 6,071

    Alistair said:

    Look, I'm not saying the situation is serious but the NY Times couldn't even do a "both sides" headline

    One of those summoned said on Tuesday that the result would not be changed. Now he is not responding to requests for comment.

    Hope that doesn't mean he's busy changing his mind.
    Anything is possible.

    I think there has been an enormous amount of complacency - because what Trump is trying to do is so outlandish everyone just assumes it couldn't possibly happen.

    Well I think it's clear now that they are going to play every conceivable trick in the book - Republican canvassers won't certify results, Republican legislatures will appoint Trump electors - they will literally go for anything.

    I fully accept that most people think they won't succeed and that may well be correct - but I wouldn't put money on it - this is the USA with a highly politicised Judiciary - absolutely anything could happen.
  • isamisam Posts: 34,623
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Trump I guess
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,995
    edited November 19
    RobD said:

    A 1 million a day, sounds like Boris has been making up targets again...

    I don't doubt they are going to try and get the rates up as high as possible. I hope you don't mind being given the jab by a squaddie.
    I feel we need our 'being given the jab by a squaddie' corespondent Dura Ace to comment upon this.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 51,201
    edited November 19
    Dishy Rishi not going to be quite so popular...

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 35,068
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Was this a wise thing to do?

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,625
    RobD said:

    A 1 million a day, sounds like Boris has been making up targets again...

    I don't doubt they are going to try and get the rates up as high as possible. I hope you don't mind being given the jab by a squaddie.
    2 hours of training via an online video says leak to Guardian.
  • Dishy Rishi not going to be quite so popular...

    The pension rise will be the big argument.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    isam said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Trump I guess
    The chaos began when Trump took office. It seems pretty strange to blame Obama for that.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 4,396

    RobD said:

    A 1 million a day, sounds like Boris has been making up targets again...

    I don't doubt they are going to try and get the rates up as high as possible. I hope you don't mind being given the jab by a squaddie.
    2 hours of training via an online video says leak to Guardian.
    That is 1 hour and 59 minutes more than you need to instruct someone adequately how to give an intramuscular injection. Which they know anyway presumably because morphine, battles etc.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 19,566

    Dishy Rishi not going to be quite so popular...

    Though nice to see that I get a bung. Gonna need it for the extra taxes.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 43,213

    OGH said: "Meanwhile await the outcome of the Georgia recount."

    Why? Nothing will change. Even if Trump could swing he would still be a loser.

    And it's not a "recount" it's an "audit".
  • isamisam Posts: 34,623

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Was this a wise thing to do?

    I was thinking of this

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,625
    MikeL said:

    Alistair said:

    Look, I'm not saying the situation is serious but the NY Times couldn't even do a "both sides" headline

    One of those summoned said on Tuesday that the result would not be changed. Now he is not responding to requests for comment.

    Hope that doesn't mean he's busy changing his mind.
    Anything is possible.

    I think there has been an enormous amount of complacency - because what Trump is trying to do is so outlandish everyone just assumes it couldn't possibly happen.

    Well I think it's clear now that they are going to play every conceivable trick in the book - Republican canvassers won't certify results, Republican legislatures will appoint Trump electors - they will literally go for anything.

    I fully accept that most people think they won't succeed and that may well be correct - but I wouldn't put money on it - this is the USA with a highly politicised Judiciary - absolutely anything could happen.
    If the GOP overturn the result via dodgy ECV electors then it's civil war.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Was this a wise thing to do?

    You judge for yourself.
    But if you're asking me whether that's Obama leaving chaos behind, the answer is no, of course not.
  • isamisam Posts: 34,623
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Trump I guess
    The chaos began when Trump took office. It seems pretty strange to blame Obama for that.
    Consider it strange then
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,311
    Australia's reputation severely tarnished Just after Tony Abbott becomes Johnson's trade envoy.

    You really couldn't make it up!
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 1,806
    isam said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Was this a wise thing to do?

    I was thinking of this

    That was a stupid thing of Obama. What really showed his character though was the look in his eyes at the end.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,555
    I never liked Barack Obama. He came across as a Britain-hater.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 4,396

    MikeL said:

    Alistair said:

    Look, I'm not saying the situation is serious but the NY Times couldn't even do a "both sides" headline

    One of those summoned said on Tuesday that the result would not be changed. Now he is not responding to requests for comment.

    Hope that doesn't mean he's busy changing his mind.
    Anything is possible.

    I think there has been an enormous amount of complacency - because what Trump is trying to do is so outlandish everyone just assumes it couldn't possibly happen.

    Well I think it's clear now that they are going to play every conceivable trick in the book - Republican canvassers won't certify results, Republican legislatures will appoint Trump electors - they will literally go for anything.

    I fully accept that most people think they won't succeed and that may well be correct - but I wouldn't put money on it - this is the USA with a highly politicised Judiciary - absolutely anything could happen.
    If the GOP overturn the result via dodgy ECV electors then it's civil war.
    Much more importantly it's a payout on a Trump win by Betfair. Anyone taking the 1.05 wants their head feeling.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 11,317

    I never liked Barack Obama. He came across as a Britain-hater.

    Diddums
  • Roger said:

    A 1 million a day, sounds like Boris has been making up targets again...

    Are we supposed to recognise 'Holly' from her breasts?
    You don't recognise Holly Willough-boobies?

    You're not up with your Celebrity Juice.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 15,170
    Just finished off the 8-part Scandi series DNA on iPlayer (hat-tip AndyJS for pointing it out) - really moving, multi-layered series (police drama on child abuction, with guest participation by Charlotte Rampling), with a very touching final installment. Recommended if you don't mind subtitltes (Danish/Polish, with smatterings with English and French) - it's by one of the authors of The Killing and The Bridge, though less gory and closer to everyday dilemmas. The first installment is over-melodramatic, but after that it just gets better and better.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 1,806

    Is twitter down?

    Trump has got his revenge.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 35,068

    I never liked Barack Obama. He came across as a Britain-hater.

    That's an odd reason not to like him. Most US Presidents weren't keen on Britain.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,293

    Dishy Rishi not going to be quite so popular...

    The pension rise will be the big argument.
    The MPs pay rise may beat that.
  • MikeL said:

    Alistair said:

    Look, I'm not saying the situation is serious but the NY Times couldn't even do a "both sides" headline

    One of those summoned said on Tuesday that the result would not be changed. Now he is not responding to requests for comment.

    Hope that doesn't mean he's busy changing his mind.
    Anything is possible.

    I think there has been an enormous amount of complacency - because what Trump is trying to do is so outlandish everyone just assumes it couldn't possibly happen.

    Well I think it's clear now that they are going to play every conceivable trick in the book - Republican canvassers won't certify results, Republican legislatures will appoint Trump electors - they will literally go for anything.

    I fully accept that most people think they won't succeed and that may well be correct - but I wouldn't put money on it - this is the USA with a highly politicised Judiciary - absolutely anything could happen.
    Important post and there is way too much complacency. The dynamic is weird and unusual in that Trump has various incentives to keep it going forever, and Republicans are a mix of too scared of him and his voters and too enthused by him to stand up to it. It will therefore keep going on chipping away at the democratic fabric or perhaps even destroying it. Pursuing the coup through legal fiction also means that the accomplices and enablers are unlikely to ever face any sanctions for their actions, indeed they will be rewarded for it in primaries to come.

  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    isam said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Was this a wise thing to do?

    I was thinking of this

    Oooooo. Chaos.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,555

    I never liked Barack Obama. He came across as a Britain-hater.

    That's an odd reason not to like him. Most US Presidents weren't keen on Britain.
    Didn't say I liked them either.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 4,454

    I never liked Barack Obama. He came across as a Britain-hater.

    Isn't that why the British Britain-haters love him?

  • I never liked Barack Obama. He came across as a Britain-hater.

    That's an odd reason not to like him. Most US Presidents weren't keen on Britain.
    Maybe originally. Not since WWII at least.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 35,068
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Was this a wise thing to do?

    I was thinking of this

    Oooooo. Chaos.
    In terms of foreign events linked to US policy, Obama's term was objectively more chaotic than Trump's.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,555
    geoffw said:

    I never liked Barack Obama. He came across as a Britain-hater.

    Isn't that why the British Britain-haters love him?

    Quite possibly.
  • isamisam Posts: 34,623
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Was this a wise thing to do?

    I was thinking of this

    Oooooo. Chaos.
    Trump was the chaos Woy!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 62,626
    edited November 19
    MikeL said:

    Alistair said:

    Look, I'm not saying the situation is serious but the NY Times couldn't even do a "both sides" headline

    One of those summoned said on Tuesday that the result would not be changed. Now he is not responding to requests for comment.

    Hope that doesn't mean he's busy changing his mind.
    Anything is possible.

    I think there has been an enormous amount of complacency - because what Trump is trying to do is so outlandish everyone just assumes it couldn't possibly happen.

    Well I think it's clear now that they are going to play every conceivable trick in the book - Republican canvassers won't certify results, Republican legislatures will appoint Trump electors - they will literally go for anything.

    I fully accept that most people think they won't succeed and that may well be correct - but I wouldn't put money on it - this is the USA with a highly politicised Judiciary - absolutely anything could happen.
    I'm levelled off now in the main presidential market on Betfair, so this isn't my pocket talking but Pelosi can put a stone cold stop to all this.
    One Dem congressman, one Dem senator file an objection at the Electoral Count when Michigan's subverted GOP electors are read out. Electoral Count pauses,house doesn't reach a decision till 20th January. By operation of law Trump ceases his presidency on the 20th January and acting then President Pelosi directs the national guard to arrest him from the White House. The Democrats may well fuck this particular trick up - they're as incompetent sometimes as the GOP is outright evil.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 9,293

    We are literally weeks away from vaccinations starting and some are losing their minds like this is never going to end so let's go crazy.

    It is insane.

    Yes, precisely. The imminent prospect of vaccines being widely available - looking to be effective, safe, and ready to be produced in huge quantities - is a very strong argument for hunkering down over the next few months. The end is now very clearly in sight; a case deferred is now clearly a case that doesn't have to happen, a death postponed is a life saved. There was an argument for saying 'we just have to live with this and we're all going to be exposed to it in the end' if no vaccine was coming soon, but that argument no longer applies.
    But Christmas.
  • We are literally weeks away from vaccinations starting and some are losing their minds like this is never going to end so let's go crazy.

    It is insane.

    Are we?
    Yes.
  • isamisam Posts: 34,623
    Something Obama said that made me think of a betting analogy was that getting where you want to get to doesn’t happen in a straight line. If you win 5% a year betting you have days where you lose over 100%, weeks where you lose 15% months where you lose 5%. It would be nice to win in a straight line, but it doesn’t happen. Same with progress in politics
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,331

    Just finished off the 8-part Scandi series DNA on iPlayer (hat-tip AndyJS for pointing it out) - really moving, multi-layered series (police drama on child abuction, with guest participation by Charlotte Rampling), with a very touching final installment. Recommended if you don't mind subtitltes (Danish/Polish, with smatterings with English and French) - it's by one of the authors of The Killing and The Bridge, though less gory and closer to everyday dilemmas. The first installment is over-melodramatic, but after that it just gets better and better.

    Agree. You think it makes no sense then it all comes together very elegantly and poignantly.

    Started on Mangrove this evening. Excellent. Very humbling and sobering also esp. when anyone should choose to query why we should as a society go out of our way to be aware of the history of black people in this country.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Was this a wise thing to do?

    I was thinking of this

    Oooooo. Chaos.
    In terms of foreign events linked to US policy, Obama's term was objectively more chaotic than Trump's.
    In terms of fascist marches and churn of White House staff and acolytes' criminal convictions and social media invective and grossly mismanaged health crises and the gutting of international institutions and allies insulted and trade wars and government shutdowns and just the whole numbing shitness of the Loser-in-Chief failing to recognise that his own people have booted him so heartily from office.... but never mind all that. Foreign events "linked to US policy". Right. [Pats williamglenn on the head]
  • I never liked Barack Obama. He came across as a Britain-hater.

    I never liked Dickhead Donald Trump! He lost the popular vote not just ONCE, but TWICE!

    What a LOSER!
  • Yang? Buttigieg?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 33,988
    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron did too in his time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    Trump won in 2016 because he wasn't Hillary.
    Biden won in 2020 because he wasn't Trump.

    In 2016, had he been able to stand again, I think Obama would have trounced Trump.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,555
    TOPPING said:

    Just finished off the 8-part Scandi series DNA on iPlayer (hat-tip AndyJS for pointing it out) - really moving, multi-layered series (police drama on child abuction, with guest participation by Charlotte Rampling), with a very touching final installment. Recommended if you don't mind subtitltes (Danish/Polish, with smatterings with English and French) - it's by one of the authors of The Killing and The Bridge, though less gory and closer to everyday dilemmas. The first installment is over-melodramatic, but after that it just gets better and better.

    Agree. You think it makes no sense then it all comes together very elegantly and poignantly.

    Started on Mangrove this evening. Excellent. Very humbling and sobering also esp. when anyone should choose to query why we should as a society go out of our way to be aware of the history of black people in this country.
    Do you like being humbled and sobered?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 5,777

    We are literally weeks away from vaccinations starting and some are losing their minds like this is never going to end so let's go crazy.

    It is insane.

    Yes, precisely. The imminent prospect of vaccines being widely available - looking to be effective, safe, and ready to be produced in huge quantities - is a very strong argument for hunkering down over the next few months. The end is now very clearly in sight; a case deferred is now clearly a case that doesn't have to happen, a death postponed is a life saved. There was an argument for saying 'we just have to live with this and we're all going to be exposed to it in the end' if no vaccine was coming soon, but that argument no longer applies.
    Exactly right.

    I've been consistently of the view that if vaccines didn't happen, we would have to accept the virus and live our lives without them (risk segmentation etc).

    However, vaccines did happen.

    Therefore, it's crazy to infect granny before we inject granny. Christmas is a dangerous distraction.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,906
    edited November 19

    Just finished off the 8-part Scandi series DNA on iPlayer (hat-tip AndyJS for pointing it out) - really moving, multi-layered series (police drama on child abuction, with guest participation by Charlotte Rampling), with a very touching final installment. Recommended if you don't mind subtitltes (Danish/Polish, with smatterings with English and French) - it's by one of the authors of The Killing and The Bridge, though less gory and closer to everyday dilemmas. The first installment is over-melodramatic, but after that it just gets better and better.

    Went off the rails at the end, though, with a storyline that became less and less credible. And that policewoman who kept taking massive blows to the head and then reappearing in the next scene with just a small plaster. Still, I always thought nuns were evil.
  • isamisam Posts: 34,623
    edited November 19
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron did too in his time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    Trump won in 2016 because he wasn't Hillary.
    Biden won in 2020 because he wasn't Trump.

    In 2016, had he been able to stand again, I think Obama would have trounced Trump.
    He wasn’t able to stand again. And his smart arse piss takes out of Trump helped enable Trump. As Cameron’s smart arse piss takes out of Leave enabled Leave

    Politicians who call for unity & moderation don’t do so well when they go with personal attacks
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 3,282
    No, it's the remaining 14 (not 15) who all so predictably signed that letter.

    More importantly, 25 other Labour NEC members didn't. The difference between those two numbers shows just how comfortable a majority on the NEC Starmer now has.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,331
    edited November 19

    TOPPING said:

    Just finished off the 8-part Scandi series DNA on iPlayer (hat-tip AndyJS for pointing it out) - really moving, multi-layered series (police drama on child abuction, with guest participation by Charlotte Rampling), with a very touching final installment. Recommended if you don't mind subtitltes (Danish/Polish, with smatterings with English and French) - it's by one of the authors of The Killing and The Bridge, though less gory and closer to everyday dilemmas. The first installment is over-melodramatic, but after that it just gets better and better.

    Agree. You think it makes no sense then it all comes together very elegantly and poignantly.

    Started on Mangrove this evening. Excellent. Very humbling and sobering also esp. when anyone should choose to query why we should as a society go out of our way to be aware of the history of black people in this country.
    Do you like being humbled and sobered?
    It was a very uncomfortable experience.

    Which is from time to time a good thing but by all means stick to Friends as it's much the easier watch if that's your thing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 35,068
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Was this a wise thing to do?

    I was thinking of this

    Oooooo. Chaos.
    In terms of foreign events linked to US policy, Obama's term was objectively more chaotic than Trump's.
    In terms of fascist marches and churn of White House staff and acolytes' criminal convictions and social media invective and grossly mismanaged health crises and the gutting of international institutions and allies insulted and trade wars and government shutdowns and just the whole numbing shitness of the Loser-in-Chief failing to recognise that his own people have booted him so heartily from office.... but never mind all that. Foreign events "linked to US policy". Right. [Pats williamglenn on the head]
    Apologies, America was clearly an unmitigated force for good and a shining city upon a hill until Trump arrived and spoilt everything...
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    isam said:

    Watching Obama last night on the BBC (free half hour of advertising for his book you might say) he did come across so well. Cameron and Blair did too in their time, but I think why these smooth types end up leaving chaos behind is their inability to resist sniping at their more explosive rivals (Trump/Farage/Leave) whilst selling themselves as moderate and reasonable. It pushes people towards the extremes, and I think Starmer is making the same error with Corbyn. It is for the likes of Farage/Trump and Jez to purge, not moderate centrist types

    What chaos did Obama leave behind?
    Was this a wise thing to do?

    I was thinking of this

    Oooooo. Chaos.
    In terms of foreign events linked to US policy, Obama's term was objectively more chaotic than Trump's.
    In terms of fascist marches and churn of White House staff and acolytes' criminal convictions and social media invective and grossly mismanaged health crises and the gutting of international institutions and allies insulted and trade wars and government shutdowns and just the whole numbing shitness of the Loser-in-Chief failing to recognise that his own people have booted him so heartily from office.... but never mind all that. Foreign events "linked to US policy". Right. [Pats williamglenn on the head]
    Apologies, America was clearly an unmitigated force for good and a shining city upon a hill until Trump arrived and spoilt everything...
    Ah, the old "you won't agree with my idiotic views, so I'll make up another idiotic view and assign it to you" defence.

    Sometimes known as the strawman fallacy, but I prefer to think of it as the I-can-think-of-more-stupid-ideas-than-you gambit. Well done, you. [A second pat on the head]
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 43,213

    Yang? Buttigieg?
    The NYT point that its only ever been held by white men might suggest not the latter.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 6,071
    Pulpstar said:

    MikeL said:

    Alistair said:

    Look, I'm not saying the situation is serious but the NY Times couldn't even do a "both sides" headline

    One of those summoned said on Tuesday that the result would not be changed. Now he is not responding to requests for comment.

    Hope that doesn't mean he's busy changing his mind.
    Anything is possible.

    I think there has been an enormous amount of complacency - because what Trump is trying to do is so outlandish everyone just assumes it couldn't possibly happen.

    Well I think it's clear now that they are going to play every conceivable trick in the book - Republican canvassers won't certify results, Republican legislatures will appoint Trump electors - they will literally go for anything.

    I fully accept that most people think they won't succeed and that may well be correct - but I wouldn't put money on it - this is the USA with a highly politicised Judiciary - absolutely anything could happen.
    I'm levelled off now in the main presidential market on Betfair, so this isn't my pocket talking but Pelosi can put a stone cold stop to all this.
    One Dem congressman, one Dem senator file an objection at the Electoral Count when Michigan's subverted GOP electors are read out. Electoral Count pauses,house doesn't reach a decision till 20th January. By operation of law Trump ceases his presidency on the 20th January and acting then President Pelosi directs the national guard to arrest him from the White House. The Democrats may well fuck this particular trick up - they're as incompetent sometimes as the GOP is outright evil.
    Yes, I saw the video posted on here last night.

    And worth noting that under the scenario required to stop Trump, it would be Pelosi and not Biden who would become President.

    How would Betfair then settle their President market? Void it?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 5,777
    MikeL said:

    Alistair said:

    Look, I'm not saying the situation is serious but the NY Times couldn't even do a "both sides" headline

    One of those summoned said on Tuesday that the result would not be changed. Now he is not responding to requests for comment.

    Hope that doesn't mean he's busy changing his mind.
    Anything is possible.

    I think there has been an enormous amount of complacency - because what Trump is trying to do is so outlandish everyone just assumes it couldn't possibly happen.

    Well I think it's clear now that they are going to play every conceivable trick in the book - Republican canvassers won't certify results, Republican legislatures will appoint Trump electors - they will literally go for anything.

    I fully accept that most people think they won't succeed and that may well be correct - but I wouldn't put money on it - this is the USA with a highly politicised Judiciary - absolutely anything could happen.
    I see we are back to coup d'etat hour on PB. The wine has sunk in, the fantastical posts are leaking through the mist.

    To be clear: Ain't gonna happen.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 25,331
    IanB2 said:

    Just finished off the 8-part Scandi series DNA on iPlayer (hat-tip AndyJS for pointing it out) - really moving, multi-layered series (police drama on child abuction, with guest participation by Charlotte Rampling), with a very touching final installment. Recommended if you don't mind subtitltes (Danish/Polish, with smatterings with English and French) - it's by one of the authors of The Killing and The Bridge, though less gory and closer to everyday dilemmas. The first installment is over-melodramatic, but after that it just gets better and better.

    Went off the rails at the end, though, with a storyline that became less and less credible. And that policewoman who kept taking massive blows to the head and then reappearing in the next scene with just a small plaster. Still, I always thought nuns were evil.
    Haha fair point. Off she goes again. But actually I thought it all came together at the end.

    And yes also it did seem that the Catholic church was stealing people's babies to give them to gay couples which is certainly a mixed message!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 22,995
    geoffw said:

    I never liked Barack Obama. He came across as a Britain-hater.

    Isn't that why the British Britain-haters love him?

    UK-lovers seem to love him for saying that the US has a deep interest in ensuring the UK remains "strong, robust and united". Perhaps it was a passing fancy.
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