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If news of this vaccine had come a fortnight earlier Trump might just have held on – politicalbettin

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  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,333

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    Can't see this happening myself. We lack both the desire and ability to enforce such things.
  • Options
    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    So we should prepare for 2021 being as crap as 2020?

    If that's the case, I feel like people's expectations are not being managed...
    I would have thought that businesses aimed generally at young to middle-aged adults would want to just let them in for commercial reasons. they did over this summer.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,713
    West Yorkshire mayoral election news.

    Virtual hustings this Thursday. Ballots being issued on 23rd November.

    Is this a shoo-in for the successful Labour candidate or do the Tories have a chance?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,582
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    As someone who is both vulnerable and a key worker, I'm going to be at the top of. the list of the vaccines.

    I'm really glad Boris Johnson designated me a key worker, he's not such a bad PM all told.

    SeanT etc is going to be at the head of the queue, isn't he/aren't they?
    Well, he does go to exotic places such as Penarth ...
    More to the point, give it to him and one shot will vaccinate about 50 people.
    More like 30 million people.

    Mind you, have the vaccine people checked if he was in one of the trials? And did they count him as 1 or Legion?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    That's ridiculous Max, and you know it.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    That's ridiculous Max, and you know it.
    TSE's list, not mine!
  • Options

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    If it all goes to plan and the AZ vaccine is as good as Pfizer and Moderna then we should have the nation majority vaccinated by the end of August 2021 with 3-4m doses per week being given by doctors, nurses, pharmacists, student doctors and student nurses.
    I'm factoring in that someone like Dido Harding will be in charge of the vaccine rollout.
    Christmas would seem a good time to shuffle her off....project reset and all that.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,385

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    As someone who is both vulnerable and a key worker, I'm going to be at the top of. the list of the vaccines.

    I'm really glad Boris Johnson designated me a key worker, he's not such a bad PM all told.

    SeanT etc is going to be at the head of the queue, isn't he/aren't they?
    Well, he does go to exotic places such as Penarth ...
    More to the point, give it to him and one shot will vaccinate about 50 people.
    More like 30 million people.

    Mind you, have the vaccine people checked if he was in one of the trials? And did they count him as 1 or Legion?
    If he gets infected, what happens to the R rate? Does he raise it by .5 on his lonesome?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,913
    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    I don’t need sex. My bank fucks me every day.

    But it would be bizarre to have bankers, who can work over the phone, placed ahead of teachers, who are being forced more or less at gunpoint to work in ideal transmission situations without any meaningful protection, in the queue for the vaccine.
    I wish that were entirely true. But I've had to deal with a deceased relative's estate this year as executor - yes, before, during and after lockdown - and you wouldn't believe the number of big companies which insisted on sending 5-figure sums as paper cheques even at the peak of lockdown rather than using bank transfer. Mind, you have my every sympathy as I can't see that bank workers are comparable to being banged up daily with several hundred mobile petri dishes.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,582
    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Some people still think it a hoax even while dying of it:

    https://twitter.com/JodiDoering/status/1327771330884808710?s=19
    I posted that yesterday, it is a supremely depressing read.
    And you get the same in many countries. I think I mentioned my friend, who survived cancer by chemo, but won't take a vaccine because "chemicals".
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    Teachers are also on that list, an accidental omission by my part.
  • Options
    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1328393378132860928

    Of course many, many people are going to totally ignore the government.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,385

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    If it all goes to plan and the AZ vaccine is as good as Pfizer and Moderna then we should have the nation majority vaccinated by the end of August 2021 with 3-4m doses per week being given by doctors, nurses, pharmacists, student doctors and student nurses.
    I'm factoring in that someone like Dido Harding will be in charge of the vaccine rollout.
    Christmas would seem a good time to shuffle her off....project reset and all that.
    Seems a bit drastic. I don’t like her, but I don’t particularly want her dead. Couldn’t she be dismissed without being ‘shuffled off’ as you put it?
  • Options
    We do genuinely think the number of anti-vax nutters will be that high?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,385

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    Teachers are also on that list, an accidental omission by my part.
    Where?
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    I don’t need sex. My bank fucks me every day.

    But it would be bizarre to have bankers, who can work over the phone, placed ahead of teachers, who are being forced more or less at gunpoint to work in ideal transmission situations without any meaningful protection, in the queue for the vaccine.
    The logic is that the country can cope, short term, with the schools being closed, it cannot cope if the financial services sector has to close for anything more than a few days.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,333
    dixiedean said:

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    What struck me about this was the teenage & twenty-something locals standing around so it takes a 61 year old to act:

    https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1328391951859716097?s=20

    In fairness, many (most?) Chinese can't swim. It really is a remarkable feature of their culture.
    Here. You might drown, so pretty much everyone learns to swim as a child.
    There. You might drown, so don't go near the water.
    And then their female team of swimmers suddenly swept the board at the Olympics. The obvious reason turned out to be the reason.
    Indeed. There is the persistent belief in Shui Gwei. Water ghosts who will drag you under and exchange bodies with you. Like a changeling. That, and Mao heavily promoting swimming for health means that not going in the water at all is default.
    Used to be most frustrating at the beach when lifeguards would panic if I went past my knees.
    Hope to go to China one day. My wife is ethnic Chinese although very Anglo. For example she CAN swim. ☺
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,913

    We do genuinely think the number of anti-vax nutters will be that high?

    First major immunization campaign of the Twatter era. I wouldn't like to be living in Totnes ...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,385
    edited November 2020

    https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1328393378132860928

    Of course many, many people are going to totally ignore the government.

    Opticians at beauty spots are in for their busiest ever winter.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    Teachers are also on that list, an accidental omission by my part.
    Where?
    It's my list for priority for the vaccine rollout, based on the current government key worker list.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    We do genuinely think the number of anti-vax nutters will be that high?

    I don't. Once the programmes start and it's proved that everything is fine almost all of the waverers will fall into line. It will be tougher in the US though.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,385
    edited November 2020

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    Teachers are also on that list, an accidental omission by my part.
    Where?
    It's my list for priority for the vaccine rollout, based on the current government key worker list.
    Yes, but where on the key worker list are they? I haven’t actually seen it.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Tegnell's statements in May look pretty rank now.

    His 40% of Stockholm have herd immunity might go down as one of the biggest hubristic statements of all time.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,313
    TimT said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    What struck me about this was the teenage & twenty-something locals standing around so it takes a 61 year old to act:

    https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1328391951859716097?s=20

    The phenomenon of people milling about until someone acts - which crystallises the actions of the rest - is a an interesting piece of human behaviour.
    Taking out your phone and videoing this is an interesting reaction to the situation, though.
    Very, very common.
    The Kitty Genovese phenomenon. The more people around, the less likely any one individual is to intervene with the required help.
    Like many ‘canonical’ studies, I’ve seen a reanalysing of the kitty genovese case. Suggests it’s a lot more complex than the standard narrative and certainly not as usually presented. This was in a book that also debunked the infamous prison experiment and the electric shock one. I’m always suspicious o& things like this.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited November 2020
    MaxPB said:

    We do genuinely think the number of anti-vax nutters will be that high?

    I don't. Once the programmes start and it's proved that everything is fine almost all of the waverers will fall into line. It will be tougher in the US though.
    I was just thinking that...all those QAnon koolaid drinkers.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Alistair said:

    Tegnell's statements in May look pretty rank now.

    His 40% of Stockholm have herd immunity might go down as one of the biggest hubristic statements of all time.

    But, dark matter!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,385
    Alistair said:

    Tegnell's statements in May look pretty rank now.

    His 40% of Stockholm have herd immunity might go down as one of the biggest hubristic statements of all time.

    Stockholm syndrome?
  • Options

    We do genuinely think the number of anti-vax nutters will be that high?

    Yes, sadly, Brexit has polarised far too many people, I think sustained no deal Brexit will also increase the number of antivaxxers.

    They'll see that chaos and think do I really trust Boris Johnson to not screw up this vaccine rollout. All those contracts to friends and chums really is impacting the messaging on this.
  • Options
    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    Expect a howl of special pleading over what is a "key worker."
    Timpsons and Locksmiths....

    I know I have only just arrived, but I will now do the hat and coat walk of shame.....
    Piano tuners.
    I could go back to my old job of programming. 102 keys on a keyboard need bashing, admittedly some more than others....

    Programmer for hire: will work anywhere that has an IBM Model M keyboard because it is the only decent one ever made. IBM 3179 terminals may also be considered....
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,385

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    I don’t need sex. My bank fucks me every day.

    But it would be bizarre to have bankers, who can work over the phone, placed ahead of teachers, who are being forced more or less at gunpoint to work in ideal transmission situations without any meaningful protection, in the queue for the vaccine.
    The logic is that the country can cope, short term, with the schools being closed, it cannot cope if the financial services sector has to close for anything more than a few days.
    Well, we look set to find out about how we can manage without schools in roughly another fortnight the way things are going.
  • Options

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    I don’t need sex. My bank fucks me every day.

    But it would be bizarre to have bankers, who can work over the phone, placed ahead of teachers, who are being forced more or less at gunpoint to work in ideal transmission situations without any meaningful protection, in the queue for the vaccine.
    The logic is that the country can cope, short term, with the schools being closed, it cannot cope if the financial services sector has to close for anything more than a few days.
    Whilst I never have felt that either schools nor financial services need to close during this year ,i fail to see how asking bankers to WFH (as many are doing?_) will paralyse the country more so than schools being shut. Another example of than 2008 arrogance by bankers?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    edited November 2020
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    Teachers are also on that list, an accidental omission by my part.
    Where?
    It's my list for priority for the vaccine rollout, based on the current government key worker list.
    Yes, but where on the key worker list are they? I haven’t actually seen it.
    It's here.

    Turns out you are a key worker.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-maintaining-educational-provision/guidance-for-schools-colleges-and-local-authorities-on-maintaining-educational-provision
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    We do genuinely think the number of anti-vax nutters will be that high?

    Yes, sadly, Brexit has polarised far too many people, I think sustained no deal Brexit will also increase the number of antivaxxers.

    They'll see that chaos and think do I really trust Boris Johnson to not screw up this vaccine rollout. All those contracts to friends and chums really is impacting the messaging on this.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8935533/Three-four-Britons-Covid-19-vaccine-Boris.html

    74% say they will take it and this is presented as a success.

    And people think the electorate could be trusted to take an informed view of brexit.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,333

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    Expect a howl of special pleading over what is a "key worker."
    Timpsons and Locksmiths....

    I know I have only just arrived, but I will now do the hat and coat walk of shame.....
    Piano tuners.
    I could go back to my old job of programming. 102 keys on a keyboard need bashing, admittedly some more than others....

    Programmer for hire: will work anywhere that has an IBM Model M keyboard because it is the only decent one ever made. IBM 3179 terminals may also be considered....
    Bet you can't do a Haiku about an IBM keyboard.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,583
    edited November 2020

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    I don’t need sex. My bank fucks me every day.

    But it would be bizarre to have bankers, who can work over the phone, placed ahead of teachers, who are being forced more or less at gunpoint to work in ideal transmission situations without any meaningful protection, in the queue for the vaccine.
    The logic is that the country can cope, short term, with the schools being closed, it cannot cope if the financial services sector has to close for anything more than a few days.
    Whilst I never have felt that either schools nor financial services need to close during this year ,i fail to see how asking bankers to WFH (as many are doing?_) will paralyse the country more so than schools being shut. Another example of than 2008 arrogance by bankers?
    It's not arrogance, it's things like freezing payments on loans/hire purchase agreements/credit cards for people impacted.

    Stopping all collections activity on default accounts etc and ensuring people do not struggle.

    Putting up temporary overdraft limits, freezing interest/charges.

    Correcting credit files.

    Because of data protection etc, you cannot access customer information from home that easily.

    Would you really want some bank staff on a unsecured home wifi network accessing your personal details?
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    TimT said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    What struck me about this was the teenage & twenty-something locals standing around so it takes a 61 year old to act:

    https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1328391951859716097?s=20

    The phenomenon of people milling about until someone acts - which crystallises the actions of the rest - is a an interesting piece of human behaviour.
    Taking out your phone and videoing this is an interesting reaction to the situation, though.
    Very, very common.
    The Kitty Genovese phenomenon. The more people around, the less likely any one individual is to intervene with the required help.
    Like many ‘canonical’ studies, I’ve seen a reanalysing of the kitty genovese case. Suggests it’s a lot more complex than the standard narrative and certainly not as usually presented. This was in a book that also debunked the infamous prison experiment and the electric shock one. I’m always suspicious o& things like this.
    The Milgram one is so much less interesting than it is cracked up to be. The subjects assumed there was nothing seriously wrong with following the instructions, and they were absolutely right. So what?
  • Options
    Off Topic: "Wind & Solar Are Cheaper Than Everything, Lazard Reports"
    "We recently saw the International Energy Agency (IEA) report that solar power offers the cheapest electricity in history. That was a global report. A US-focused report from Lazard recently reported something similar. The highly regarded energy analysts showed that wind and solar offer the cheapest electricity in the country, even significantly undercutting natural gas combined cycle power plants now. "

    "We’re at a kind of crossover point right now, but if solar and wind continue to come down in cost while the others stay the same or get more expensive, there will be serious pressure to retire fossil and nuclear power plants early and scale up wind and solar power production even faster. Why pay more for electricity from old, dirty power plants when you can get it more cheaply from new, clean, green electricity?"

    https://cleantechnica.com/2020/11/15/wind-solar-are-cheaper-than-everything-lazard-reports/
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,422
    edited November 2020

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    I don’t need sex. My bank fucks me every day.

    But it would be bizarre to have bankers, who can work over the phone, placed ahead of teachers, who are being forced more or less at gunpoint to work in ideal transmission situations without any meaningful protection, in the queue for the vaccine.
    The logic is that the country can cope, short term, with the schools being closed, it cannot cope if the financial services sector has to close for anything more than a few days.
    Whilst I never have felt that either schools nor financial services need to close during this year ,i fail to see how asking bankers to WFH (as many are doing?_) will paralyse the country more so than schools being shut. Another example of than 2008 arrogance by bankers?
    It's not arrogance, it's things like freezing payments on loans/hire purchase agreements/credit cards for people impacted.

    Stopping all collections activity on default accounts etc and ensuring people do not struggle.

    Putting up temporary overdraft limits, freezing interest/charges.

    Correcting credit files.

    Because of data protection etc, you cannot access customer information from home that easily.

    Would you really want some bank staff on a unsecured home wifi network accessing your personal details?
    Well I used to work for the Ministry of Justice and a simple solution was to encrypt sensitive information when using home working - I fail to see how banks could not do the same? I am not the most technical person but there is definitely solutions to using home wi fi
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,385
    edited November 2020

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    I don’t need sex. My bank fucks me every day.

    But it would be bizarre to have bankers, who can work over the phone, placed ahead of teachers, who are being forced more or less at gunpoint to work in ideal transmission situations without any meaningful protection, in the queue for the vaccine.
    The logic is that the country can cope, short term, with the schools being closed, it cannot cope if the financial services sector has to close for anything more than a few days.
    Whilst I never have felt that either schools nor financial services need to close during this year ,i fail to see how asking bankers to WFH (as many are doing?_) will paralyse the country more so than schools being shut. Another example of than 2008 arrogance by bankers?
    It's not arrogance, it's things like freezing payments on loans/hire purchase agreements/credit cards for people impacted.

    Stopping all collections activity on default accounts etc and ensuring people do not struggle.

    Putting up temporary overdraft limits, freezing interest/charges.

    Correcting credit files.

    Because of data protection etc, you cannot access customer information from home that easily.

    Would you really want some bank staff on a unsecured home wifi network accessing your personal details?
    How many people do that on their own WiFi now anyway?
  • Options
    IshmaelZ said:

    We do genuinely think the number of anti-vax nutters will be that high?

    Yes, sadly, Brexit has polarised far too many people, I think sustained no deal Brexit will also increase the number of antivaxxers.

    They'll see that chaos and think do I really trust Boris Johnson to not screw up this vaccine rollout. All those contracts to friends and chums really is impacting the messaging on this.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8935533/Three-four-Britons-Covid-19-vaccine-Boris.html

    74% say they will take it and this is presented as a success.

    And people think the electorate could be trusted to take an informed view of brexit.
    Funny you should mention that...

    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/1328404083426865152?s=19
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    So we should prepare for 2021 being as crap as 2020?

    If that's the case, I feel like people's expectations are not being managed...
    I suspect once the vulnerable and key workers are vaccinated, then we might see a return to some normality for everybody by the summer of 2021, so long as we engage in things like social distancing, regular hand washing, and mask wearing.

    Oh and localised lockdowns if we have some Covid-19 flare ups.
    We can be more optimistic than that. As soon as they start vaccinating key workers rates of transmission will drop and things will normalise quite quickly. You only need a few million potential spreaders taken out of the loop and the virus will weaken, bigtime,

    I can see late spring 2021 feeling quite "normal".

    Tho you are right that the jabs will become pretty much mandatory, even if they aren't legally required
  • Options
    johntjohnt Posts: 86

    Off Topic: "Wind & Solar Are Cheaper Than Everything, Lazard Reports"
    "We recently saw the International Energy Agency (IEA) report that solar power offers the cheapest electricity in history. That was a global report. A US-focused report from Lazard recently reported something similar. The highly regarded energy analysts showed that wind and solar offer the cheapest electricity in the country, even significantly undercutting natural gas combined cycle power plants now. "

    "We’re at a kind of crossover point right now, but if solar and wind continue to come down in cost while the others stay the same or get more expensive, there will be serious pressure to retire fossil and nuclear power plants early and scale up wind and solar power production even faster. Why pay more for electricity from old, dirty power plants when you can get it more cheaply from new, clean, green electricity?"

    https://cleantechnica.com/2020/11/15/wind-solar-are-cheaper-than-everything-lazard-reports/

    That outcome was always going to happen and does vindicate the subsidies and encouragement given to the industry in the last few years. The advantages to the globe of renewables is massive. What is unfortunate is that the U.K. has been focused on nationalism rather than seeking to be at the forefront of these technologies. So while we will use this technology, far too much of it will have to come from abroad.
  • Options
    .

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    I don’t need sex. My bank fucks me every day.

    But it would be bizarre to have bankers, who can work over the phone, placed ahead of teachers, who are being forced more or less at gunpoint to work in ideal transmission situations without any meaningful protection, in the queue for the vaccine.
    The logic is that the country can cope, short term, with the schools being closed, it cannot cope if the financial services sector has to close for anything more than a few days.
    Whilst I never have felt that either schools nor financial services need to close during this year ,i fail to see how asking bankers to WFH (as many are doing?_) will paralyse the country more so than schools being shut. Another example of than 2008 arrogance by bankers?
    It's not arrogance, it's things like freezing payments on loans/hire purchase agreements/credit cards for people impacted.

    Stopping all collections activity on default accounts etc and ensuring people do not struggle.

    Putting up temporary overdraft limits, freezing interest/charges.

    Correcting credit files.

    Because of data protection etc, you cannot access customer information from home that easily.

    Would you really want some bank staff on a unsecured home wifi network accessing your personal details?
    Well I used to work for the Ministry of Justice and a simple solution was to encrypt sensitive information when using home working - I fail to see how banks could not do the same? I am not the most technical person but there is definitely solutions to using home wi fi
    Plenty of that is done, but plenty of things cannot be encrypted properly.
  • Options
    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    Tegnell's statements in May look pretty rank now.

    His 40% of Stockholm have herd immunity might go down as one of the biggest hubristic statements of all time.

    Stockholm syndrome?
    as in Stockholm, Finland.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Don't forget journalists. The ex-Spectator editor made sure journalists got on the list, too.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    IshmaelZ said:

    We do genuinely think the number of anti-vax nutters will be that high?

    Yes, sadly, Brexit has polarised far too many people, I think sustained no deal Brexit will also increase the number of antivaxxers.

    They'll see that chaos and think do I really trust Boris Johnson to not screw up this vaccine rollout. All those contracts to friends and chums really is impacting the messaging on this.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8935533/Three-four-Britons-Covid-19-vaccine-Boris.html

    74% say they will take it and this is presented as a success.

    And people think the electorate could be trusted to take an informed view of brexit.
    Funny you should mention that...

    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/1328404083426865152?s=19
    At some point Keir Starmer has to formulate a Labour policy on post-Brexit relations with the EU. He should look at these polls very carefully. EEA membership seems the obvious way to capitalise on Brexit regret.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,713
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    And where does that leave healthy adults between 18 and 40 ?
    Netflix and masturbation.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    I'll feel a lot better about vaccines when we actually start jabbing people.
  • Options

    .

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    I don’t need sex. My bank fucks me every day.

    But it would be bizarre to have bankers, who can work over the phone, placed ahead of teachers, who are being forced more or less at gunpoint to work in ideal transmission situations without any meaningful protection, in the queue for the vaccine.
    The logic is that the country can cope, short term, with the schools being closed, it cannot cope if the financial services sector has to close for anything more than a few days.
    Whilst I never have felt that either schools nor financial services need to close during this year ,i fail to see how asking bankers to WFH (as many are doing?_) will paralyse the country more so than schools being shut. Another example of than 2008 arrogance by bankers?
    It's not arrogance, it's things like freezing payments on loans/hire purchase agreements/credit cards for people impacted.

    Stopping all collections activity on default accounts etc and ensuring people do not struggle.

    Putting up temporary overdraft limits, freezing interest/charges.

    Correcting credit files.

    Because of data protection etc, you cannot access customer information from home that easily.

    Would you really want some bank staff on a unsecured home wifi network accessing your personal details?
    Well I used to work for the Ministry of Justice and a simple solution was to encrypt sensitive information when using home working - I fail to see how banks could not do the same? I am not the most technical person but there is definitely solutions to using home wi fi
    Plenty of that is done, but plenty of things cannot be encrypted properly.
    You might want to read up on SSL tunnelling ...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,385

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    And where does that leave healthy adults between 18 and 40 ?
    Netflix and masturbation.
    They’re fiddled out of a decent life?

    Good night.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    The University of Washington model (once much maligned) now predicts that the European country which will do worse overall is...... Germany.


    They envisage Germany enduring 155,000 Covid deaths by March 1 2021. I've no idea how they get the figure, but their model has been honed over time, and has also been quite accurate in recent weeks.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/germany
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623

    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    And where does that leave healthy adults between 18 and 40 ?
    Netflix and masturbation.
    That's the old normal, not the new normal...
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,139
    dixiedean said:

    What struck me about this was the teenage & twenty-something locals standing around so it takes a 61 year old to act:

    https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1328391951859716097?s=20

    In fairness, many (most?) Chinese can't swim. It really is a remarkable feature of their culture.
    Here. You might drown, so pretty much everyone learns to swim as a child.
    There. You might drown, so don't go near the water.
    That’s bizarre. Why don’t people learn to swim there?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited November 2020
    LadyG said:

    The University of Washington model (once much maligned) now predicts that the European country which will do worse overall is...... Germany.


    They envisage Germany enduring 155,000 Covid deaths by March 1 2021. I've no idea how they get the figure, but their model has been honed over time, and has also been quite accurate in recent weeks.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/germany

    I think they need to turn it off and on again....

    It makes no sense, compared to france and italy who have much higher rates of covid and already far more deaths, but the model for those two countries results in far less.
  • Options

    dixiedean said:

    What struck me about this was the teenage & twenty-something locals standing around so it takes a 61 year old to act:

    https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1328391951859716097?s=20

    In fairness, many (most?) Chinese can't swim. It really is a remarkable feature of their culture.
    Here. You might drown, so pretty much everyone learns to swim as a child.
    There. You might drown, so don't go near the water.
    That’s bizarre. Why don’t people learn to swim there?
    I am not sure its that clear cut , maybe some truth in it but Chinese swimmers had a whole load of success in recent olympics and whilst some of that may be down to errr substances the raw material has to be there in the first place.
  • Options

    dixiedean said:

    What struck me about this was the teenage & twenty-something locals standing around so it takes a 61 year old to act:

    https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1328391951859716097?s=20

    In fairness, many (most?) Chinese can't swim. It really is a remarkable feature of their culture.
    Here. You might drown, so pretty much everyone learns to swim as a child.
    There. You might drown, so don't go near the water.
    That’s bizarre. Why don’t people learn to swim there?
    Perhaps it is the old Chinese belief that if you save someone's life then you are responsible for their subsequent actions...?
  • Options
    LadyG said:

    The University of Washington model (once much maligned) now predicts that the European country which will do worse overall is...... Germany.


    They envisage Germany enduring 155,000 Covid deaths by March 1 2021. I've no idea how they get the figure, but their model has been honed over time, and has also been quite accurate in recent weeks.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/germany

    What's your prediction for the USA, G? You once suggested 175,000. I offered 200,000.

    Not very good at predicting the future, are we.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,333

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    Expect a howl of special pleading over what is a "key worker."
    Timpsons and Locksmiths....

    I know I have only just arrived, but I will now do the hat and coat walk of shame.....
    Piano tuners.
    I could go back to my old job of programming. 102 keys on a keyboard need bashing, admittedly some more than others....

    Programmer for hire: will work anywhere that has an IBM Model M keyboard because it is the only decent one ever made. IBM 3179 terminals may also be considered....
    Bet you can't do a Haiku about an IBM keyboard.
    Coiled springs buckle
    My finger tips laugh Loudly
    And programs are born
    I lose!
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,894
    Evening all :)

    More positive vaccine news which is all good. The question now is one of priorities and logistics - ideally it should be a single shot vaccine - the notion of a two-shot process (doubling the numbers at a stroke) complicates matters with some getting their second shot while others are still getting their first.

    As others have suggested, there may be a form of vaccine apartheid where those who have had the vaccine will be able to start "enjoying" life while those who haven't won't. This of course depends on the efficacy of the vaccine and whether if it is a two-shot process whether people will just take one and hope for the best.

    The second part is how many of the less affected will bother - the virus will be less of an issue if it is confined to the healthier, younger and unvaccinated members of society. Perhaps a substantial minority of those will simply go back to normal life and not care - after all, if the vulnerable are protected by the vaccine, what's the issue?

    Managing the vaccination process is going to be a challenge for a Government which has struggled with the detail through all this - hopefully plenty of thought and organisation has gone in to who, where, when, why and how because that's people will want to know for themselves and for anyone they know who is vulnerable.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,139

    dixiedean said:

    What struck me about this was the teenage & twenty-something locals standing around so it takes a 61 year old to act:

    https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1328391951859716097?s=20

    In fairness, many (most?) Chinese can't swim. It really is a remarkable feature of their culture.
    Here. You might drown, so pretty much everyone learns to swim as a child.
    There. You might drown, so don't go near the water.
    I found the same among Ghanians & other West Africans. Though there it seems to be especially the sea.
    FWIW, I can't swim, and know lots of people who can't. We share that we made a few unsuccessful efforts when young, didn't enjoy it, and gave up - the probability that one really needs it is small, though I also know people who really love it. Takes all sorts...
    The probability that one misses out on life hugely by being unable to swim is massive though: you really should try learning. There’s lots to enjoy. Wild swimming is fantastic.
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    Expect a howl of special pleading over what is a "key worker."
    Timpsons and Locksmiths....

    I know I have only just arrived, but I will now do the hat and coat walk of shame.....
    Piano tuners.
    I could go back to my old job of programming. 102 keys on a keyboard need bashing, admittedly some more than others....

    Programmer for hire: will work anywhere that has an IBM Model M keyboard because it is the only decent one ever made. IBM 3179 terminals may also be considered....
    Bet you can't do a Haiku about an IBM keyboard.
    Coiled springs buckle
    My finger tips laugh Loudly
    And programs are born
    I lose!
    That really is a very good haiku. You should have it published.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,139
    Andy_JS said:

    "Why we need populism
    It kicks in when our democracies become too remote and detached from the people
    BY MATTHEW GOODWIN"

    https://unherd.com/2020/11/populism-isnt-dead-yet/

    Our thoughts are with Goodwin at this difficult time.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,582
    UK cases by specimen date

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    dixiedean said:

    What struck me about this was the teenage & twenty-something locals standing around so it takes a 61 year old to act:

    https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1328391951859716097?s=20

    In fairness, many (most?) Chinese can't swim. It really is a remarkable feature of their culture.
    Here. You might drown, so pretty much everyone learns to swim as a child.
    There. You might drown, so don't go near the water.
    I found the same among Ghanians & other West Africans. Though there it seems to be especially the sea.
    FWIW, I can't swim, and know lots of people who can't. We share that we made a few unsuccessful efforts when young, didn't enjoy it, and gave up - the probability that one really needs it is small, though I also know people who really love it. Takes all sorts...
    The probability that one misses out on life hugely by being unable to swim is massive though: you really should try learning. There’s lots to enjoy. Wild swimming is fantastic.
    Definitely don't do wild swimming if you cannot swim!
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,582
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100k population

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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,582
    UK local R

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    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    The University of Washington model (once much maligned) now predicts that the European country which will do worse overall is...... Germany.


    They envisage Germany enduring 155,000 Covid deaths by March 1 2021. I've no idea how they get the figure, but their model has been honed over time, and has also been quite accurate in recent weeks.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/germany

    What's your prediction for the USA, G? You once suggested 175,000. I offered 200,000.

    Not very good at predicting the future, are we.
    I reckon their figure for the USA - 438,000 - looks about right, Nearly half a million. Eeesh.

    But it won't get much worse, by March 1 many tens of millions of vaccines will be ready.


  • Options

    dixiedean said:

    What struck me about this was the teenage & twenty-something locals standing around so it takes a 61 year old to act:

    https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1328391951859716097?s=20

    In fairness, many (most?) Chinese can't swim. It really is a remarkable feature of their culture.
    Here. You might drown, so pretty much everyone learns to swim as a child.
    There. You might drown, so don't go near the water.
    I found the same among Ghanians & other West Africans. Though there it seems to be especially the sea.
    FWIW, I can't swim, and know lots of people who can't. We share that we made a few unsuccessful efforts when young, didn't enjoy it, and gave up - the probability that one really needs it is small, though I also know people who really love it. Takes all sorts...
    The probability that one misses out on life hugely by being unable to swim is massive though: you really should try learning. There’s lots to enjoy. Wild swimming is fantastic.
    Lol! You trying to get rid of our good Doctor?!

    I go wild swimming a lot, but it is definitely for strong, experienced swimmers, not beginners.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,582
    UK case summary

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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,582
    UK Hospitals

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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,853
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    I don’t need sex. My bank fucks me every day.

    But it would be bizarre to have bankers, who can work over the phone, placed ahead of teachers, who are being forced more or less at gunpoint to work in ideal transmission situations without any meaningful protection, in the queue for the vaccine.
    The logic is that the country can cope, short term, with the schools being closed, it cannot cope if the financial services sector has to close for anything more than a few days.
    Well, we look set to find out about how we can manage without schools in roughly another fortnight the way things are going.
    There's still plenty of schooling going on in Tier 3, which I guess Staffs (isn't it?) would be approaching if that was still in place.

    If lockdown is working - and from Tier 3 and Devolved Nations results, there's no reason to suppose it isn't, infection rates should turn downwards mostly everywhere towards the end of this week and into next week.
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    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    The University of Washington model (once much maligned) now predicts that the European country which will do worse overall is...... Germany.


    They envisage Germany enduring 155,000 Covid deaths by March 1 2021. I've no idea how they get the figure, but their model has been honed over time, and has also been quite accurate in recent weeks.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/germany

    What's your prediction for the USA, G? You once suggested 175,000. I offered 200,000.

    Not very good at predicting the future, are we.
    I reckon their figure for the USA - 438,000 - looks about right, Nearly half a million. Eeesh.

    But it won't get much worse, by March 1 many tens of millions of vaccines will be ready.


    Except all the anti-mask QAnon lot won't go near it.

    More seriously, US messy health-care system and large number of illegal immigrants will make vaccinating everybody a much tougher challenge than in European countries.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,582
    UK Deaths

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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,796
    LadyG said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    So we should prepare for 2021 being as crap as 2020?

    If that's the case, I feel like people's expectations are not being managed...
    I suspect once the vulnerable and key workers are vaccinated, then we might see a return to some normality for everybody by the summer of 2021, so long as we engage in things like social distancing, regular hand washing, and mask wearing.

    Oh and localised lockdowns if we have some Covid-19 flare ups.
    We can be more optimistic than that. As soon as they start vaccinating key workers rates of transmission will drop and things will normalise quite quickly. You only need a few million potential spreaders taken out of the loop and the virus will weaken, bigtime,

    I can see late spring 2021 feeling quite "normal".

    Tho you are right that the jabs will become pretty much mandatory, even if they aren't legally required
    Let people chose if they want to have the vaccine...

    ... and let airlines, hotels, restuarants, pubs, entertainment venues, supermarkets,... chose if they want to accept unvaccinated (or medically exempt) customers.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,894
    LadyG said:


    We can be more optimistic than that. As soon as they start vaccinating key workers rates of transmission will drop and things will normalise quite quickly. You only need a few million potential spreaders taken out of the loop and the virus will weaken, bigtime,

    I can see late spring 2021 feeling quite "normal".

    Tho you are right that the jabs will become pretty much mandatory, even if they aren't legally required

    The question will then be what lessons will we, both individually and collectively, have learnt. There seems an almost frantic desire to forget the whole thing and go back to December 2019 but life doesn't work that way.

    An improvement in personal and public health awareness might be quite a positive - better hygiene and cleanliness means fewer sick days and less pressure on GPs and the NHS which can then prioritise on all the things which have been left by Covid.

    I don't have huge expectations but even a small improvement will help.
  • Options

    LadyG said:

    The University of Washington model (once much maligned) now predicts that the European country which will do worse overall is...... Germany.


    They envisage Germany enduring 155,000 Covid deaths by March 1 2021. I've no idea how they get the figure, but their model has been honed over time, and has also been quite accurate in recent weeks.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/germany

    I think they need to turn it off and on again....

    It makes no sense, compared to france and italy who have much higher rates of covid and already far more deaths, but the model for those two countries results in far less.
    Bear in mind Germany has a much larger population
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,582
    UK R

    From case data

    image
    image

    From hospitals

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    LadyG said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    So we should prepare for 2021 being as crap as 2020?

    If that's the case, I feel like people's expectations are not being managed...
    I suspect once the vulnerable and key workers are vaccinated, then we might see a return to some normality for everybody by the summer of 2021, so long as we engage in things like social distancing, regular hand washing, and mask wearing.

    Oh and localised lockdowns if we have some Covid-19 flare ups.
    We can be more optimistic than that. As soon as they start vaccinating key workers rates of transmission will drop and things will normalise quite quickly. You only need a few million potential spreaders taken out of the loop and the virus will weaken, bigtime,

    I can see late spring 2021 feeling quite "normal".

    Tho you are right that the jabs will become pretty much mandatory, even if they aren't legally required
    Let people chose if they want to have the vaccine...

    ... and let airlines, hotels, restuarants, pubs, entertainment venues, supermarkets,... chose if they want to accept unvaccinated (or medically exempt) customers.
    I suspect they will as who wants to hassle customers to show another piece of paper or annoy them . 100% do not need to be vaccinated anyway
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,350
    edited November 2020
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    The University of Washington model (once much maligned) now predicts that the European country which will do worse overall is...... Germany.


    They envisage Germany enduring 155,000 Covid deaths by March 1 2021. I've no idea how they get the figure, but their model has been honed over time, and has also been quite accurate in recent weeks.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/germany

    What's your prediction for the USA, G? You once suggested 175,000. I offered 200,000.

    Not very good at predicting the future, are we.
    I reckon their figure for the USA - 438,000 - looks about right, Nearly half a million. Eeesh.

    But it won't get much worse, by March 1 many tens of millions of vaccines will be ready.


    Ah, but you have a lot of Covid sceptics in the USA. Many will refuse the vaccine for the same reason they refused to accept the virus was real - they are fuckwits. So maybe you are once agian on the low-side.

    I'll go for a round half a million, but only on the assumption of a return to a semblance of normality in the White House.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited November 2020

    LadyG said:

    The University of Washington model (once much maligned) now predicts that the European country which will do worse overall is...... Germany.


    They envisage Germany enduring 155,000 Covid deaths by March 1 2021. I've no idea how they get the figure, but their model has been honed over time, and has also been quite accurate in recent weeks.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/germany

    I think they need to turn it off and on again....

    It makes no sense, compared to france and italy who have much higher rates of covid and already far more deaths, but the model for those two countries results in far less.
    Bear in mind Germany has a much larger population
    Their model think deaths in Germany in the next few months will suffer 12x what it has been so far, while their covid rate is higher tham before it isn't in the same ballpark as the likes of France.

    It just does not compute.
  • Options

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    dixiedean said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    Expect a howl of special pleading over what is a "key worker."
    Timpsons and Locksmiths....

    I know I have only just arrived, but I will now do the hat and coat walk of shame.....
    Piano tuners.
    I could go back to my old job of programming. 102 keys on a keyboard need bashing, admittedly some more than others....

    Programmer for hire: will work anywhere that has an IBM Model M keyboard because it is the only decent one ever made. IBM 3179 terminals may also be considered....
    Bet you can't do a Haiku about an IBM keyboard.
    Coiled springs buckle
    My finger tips laugh Loudly
    And programs are born
    I lose!
    That really is a very good haiku. You should have it published.
    Thank you. Of course, it is published... here on PB :)
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,673

    LadyG said:

    The University of Washington model (once much maligned) now predicts that the European country which will do worse overall is...... Germany.


    They envisage Germany enduring 155,000 Covid deaths by March 1 2021. I've no idea how they get the figure, but their model has been honed over time, and has also been quite accurate in recent weeks.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/germany

    I think they need to turn it off and on again....

    It makes no sense, compared to france and italy who have much higher rates of covid and already far more deaths, but the model for those two countries results in far less.
    Nonsense was my first thought but Worldometer agrees and they have been pretty reliable. Don't know why the graph shows a sudden upturn.
  • Options
    stodge said:

    LadyG said:


    We can be more optimistic than that. As soon as they start vaccinating key workers rates of transmission will drop and things will normalise quite quickly. You only need a few million potential spreaders taken out of the loop and the virus will weaken, bigtime,

    I can see late spring 2021 feeling quite "normal".

    Tho you are right that the jabs will become pretty much mandatory, even if they aren't legally required

    The question will then be what lessons will we, both individually and collectively, have learnt. There seems an almost frantic desire to forget the whole thing and go back to December 2019 but life doesn't work that way.

    An improvement in personal and public health awareness might be quite a positive - better hygiene and cleanliness means fewer sick days and less pressure on GPs and the NHS which can then prioritise on all the things which have been left by Covid.

    I don't have huge expectations but even a small improvement will help.
    I settle for people using a handkershief when they sneeze on a crowded tube train.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,139
    COVID is mostly harmless for fit and healthy under 50s, so prioritising the vulnerable is the way forward, then letting us get on with our lives. If the vulnerable are immunised why does is matter if a bunch of 15-35 year olds get it asymptomatically?
  • Options

    .

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    I don’t need sex. My bank fucks me every day.

    But it would be bizarre to have bankers, who can work over the phone, placed ahead of teachers, who are being forced more or less at gunpoint to work in ideal transmission situations without any meaningful protection, in the queue for the vaccine.
    The logic is that the country can cope, short term, with the schools being closed, it cannot cope if the financial services sector has to close for anything more than a few days.
    Whilst I never have felt that either schools nor financial services need to close during this year ,i fail to see how asking bankers to WFH (as many are doing?_) will paralyse the country more so than schools being shut. Another example of than 2008 arrogance by bankers?
    It's not arrogance, it's things like freezing payments on loans/hire purchase agreements/credit cards for people impacted.

    Stopping all collections activity on default accounts etc and ensuring people do not struggle.

    Putting up temporary overdraft limits, freezing interest/charges.

    Correcting credit files.

    Because of data protection etc, you cannot access customer information from home that easily.

    Would you really want some bank staff on a unsecured home wifi network accessing your personal details?
    Well I used to work for the Ministry of Justice and a simple solution was to encrypt sensitive information when using home working - I fail to see how banks could not do the same? I am not the most technical person but there is definitely solutions to using home wi fi
    Plenty of that is done, but plenty of things cannot be encrypted properly.
    You might want to read up on SSL tunnelling ...
    I'll leave that to the techies at work, the other issue is call recording from home.
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,422
    edited November 2020
    Whilst I would take a vaccine despite being against many of the OTT measures of covid-19 this year there is no need to get the population 100% vaccinated to get back to normal for 100% of people. Anything else is vindictive and not medically logical - this is not smallpox or ebola it is a illness that only is a societal problem (where civil restrictions are considered ) because it can have the capacity to overwhelm the NHS .This cannot happen if 60% - 80% vaccinated say , so no need for people or governments to pick on people who for whatever reason choose not to get vaccinated.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,054
    And now for something completely different. A very long but very good piece from the New Statesman about the mess our university system is in.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2019/08/great-university-con-how-british-degree-lost-its-value

    It seemed fairly obvious to me 20 years ago as a student - if not the extent. Why has this been ignored by the mainstream media all this time? The critics of grade inflation - usually on the political right - have tended to see it as about creating equality and making people feel good. The reality is that it has always been about money.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    So we should prepare for 2021 being as crap as 2020?

    If that's the case, I feel like people's expectations are not being managed...
    I suspect once the vulnerable and key workers are vaccinated, then we might see a return to some normality for everybody by the summer of 2021, so long as we engage in things like social distancing, regular hand washing, and mask wearing.

    Oh and localised lockdowns if we have some Covid-19 flare ups.
    We can be more optimistic than that. As soon as they start vaccinating key workers rates of transmission will drop and things will normalise quite quickly. You only need a few million potential spreaders taken out of the loop and the virus will weaken, bigtime,

    I can see late spring 2021 feeling quite "normal".

    Tho you are right that the jabs will become pretty much mandatory, even if they aren't legally required
    Let people chose if they want to have the vaccine...

    ... and let airlines, hotels, restuarants, pubs, entertainment venues, supermarkets,... chose if they want to accept unvaccinated (or medically exempt) customers.
    Well, quite. Anyone who wants to work in any service industry, where they interact with people, will be required to get a jab, You want to be a waiter, to work in Pret, to serve in a shop, to be a musician, to do some bar work, to
    drive a cab, to work in a school, to play your favourite sport, you will need your Vaccine Visa. And you will also need it if you want to travel outside the country. If you EVER want to have a holiday.

    Nearly everyone will take the jab, however reluctantly
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    COVID is mostly harmless for fit and healthy under 50s, so prioritising the vulnerable is the way forward, then letting us get on with our lives. If the vulnerable are immunised why does is matter if a bunch of 15-35 year olds get it asymptomatically?

    Because we don't know enough about long Covid.

    Plus, there's this belief if you don't die from Covid-19 then it has no health impacts on the person infected.

    I know of several young and youngish healthy friends and other people who caught Covid-19 and still struggling from its aftermath.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,713

    Off Topic: "Wind & Solar Are Cheaper Than Everything, Lazard Reports"
    "We recently saw the International Energy Agency (IEA) report that solar power offers the cheapest electricity in history. That was a global report. A US-focused report from Lazard recently reported something similar. The highly regarded energy analysts showed that wind and solar offer the cheapest electricity in the country, even significantly undercutting natural gas combined cycle power plants now. "

    "We’re at a kind of crossover point right now, but if solar and wind continue to come down in cost while the others stay the same or get more expensive, there will be serious pressure to retire fossil and nuclear power plants early and scale up wind and solar power production even faster. Why pay more for electricity from old, dirty power plants when you can get it more cheaply from new, clean, green electricity?"

    https://cleantechnica.com/2020/11/15/wind-solar-are-cheaper-than-everything-lazard-reports/

    As long as you don't want to turn your lights on when it gets dark, solar is perfect.

    Add in the cost of storage, and despatchable CCGT with CCS starts to look more attrative.
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    .

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think the current government list of key workers will determine who gets the vaccine first.

    Emergency workers.
    Critical systems workers.
    NHS Staff.
    Care home staff.
    Supermarket staff.
    Anyone who works for a bank.

    The latter one was a brilliant decision by the government.

    Teachers notably absent from that list.
    You've been usurped by bank workers, fairly I'd say. Sorry.
    I don’t need sex. My bank fucks me every day.

    But it would be bizarre to have bankers, who can work over the phone, placed ahead of teachers, who are being forced more or less at gunpoint to work in ideal transmission situations without any meaningful protection, in the queue for the vaccine.
    The logic is that the country can cope, short term, with the schools being closed, it cannot cope if the financial services sector has to close for anything more than a few days.
    Whilst I never have felt that either schools nor financial services need to close during this year ,i fail to see how asking bankers to WFH (as many are doing?_) will paralyse the country more so than schools being shut. Another example of than 2008 arrogance by bankers?
    It's not arrogance, it's things like freezing payments on loans/hire purchase agreements/credit cards for people impacted.

    Stopping all collections activity on default accounts etc and ensuring people do not struggle.

    Putting up temporary overdraft limits, freezing interest/charges.

    Correcting credit files.

    Because of data protection etc, you cannot access customer information from home that easily.

    Would you really want some bank staff on a unsecured home wifi network accessing your personal details?
    Well I used to work for the Ministry of Justice and a simple solution was to encrypt sensitive information when using home working - I fail to see how banks could not do the same? I am not the most technical person but there is definitely solutions to using home wi fi
    Plenty of that is done, but plenty of things cannot be encrypted properly.
    You might want to read up on SSL tunnelling ...
    The problems of WFH and confidential information are not just about encryption en route. How many home-workers bought printers, and how many of those also bought shredders? How many blindfolded their children so they could not read confidential information on mummy's monitor? And their children's student activist boy and girlfriends?

    It is a mistake to think these problems are only or even mainly technical.
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    LadyG said:

    The University of Washington model (once much maligned) now predicts that the European country which will do worse overall is...... Germany.


    They envisage Germany enduring 155,000 Covid deaths by March 1 2021. I've no idea how they get the figure, but their model has been honed over time, and has also been quite accurate in recent weeks.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/germany

    A couple of months ago you already posted a prediction from that site, forecasting the exact same thing, that Germany would have the worst second wave overall.
    A different model (for international, gender-fluid underwear) predicted in early April that "Germany was merely three days behind the UK", when the plague went really rampant.

    How did these predictions hold up? What do the numbers say now, in hindsight?
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    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    The University of Washington model (once much maligned) now predicts that the European country which will do worse overall is...... Germany.


    They envisage Germany enduring 155,000 Covid deaths by March 1 2021. I've no idea how they get the figure, but their model has been honed over time, and has also been quite accurate in recent weeks.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/germany

    What's your prediction for the USA, G? You once suggested 175,000. I offered 200,000.

    Not very good at predicting the future, are we.
    I reckon their figure for the USA - 438,000 - looks about right, Nearly half a million. Eeesh.

    But it won't get much worse, by March 1 many tens of millions of vaccines will be ready.


    Except all the anti-mask QAnon lot won't go near it.

    More seriously, US messy health-care system and large number of illegal immigrants will make vaccinating everybody a much tougher challenge than in European countries.
    So maybe we should start a rumour that the vaccine is part of a conspiracy by the lizard people, led by Hillary Clinton, to take over people's brains so they become socialist supporters of Joe Biden. We float this on the various QAnon sites and in due course the number of QA followers begins to dwindle.

    Nothing wrong with that. Just helping natural selection along a little.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,139
    LadyG said:

    MaxPB said:

    IMO Japan has the most impressive vaccine portfolio so far, 120m Pfizer doses and 80m Moderna doses all due for Q1 2021 delivery. That's 100m people's worth of vaccine of the two fastest candidates and they both have around 95% effectiveness.

    Absolutely smashed it.

    Picking winners from vaccines is like trying to predict the premier league scores every week. You can use logic and data, but every round there is a huge amount of luck.

    If the Oxford one comes good in 2-3 weeks, UK will have 100+ million doses secured across 3 vaccines all for delivery before realistically we can physically give it to everybody. If that turns out to be the case, the UK will have also smashed it. Worst case scenario, we can already have enough for 1/2 population, which is good going.

    The big task now is getting it rolled out to people.
    Not to everyone, surely. Those who regarded the virus as a hoax, or nothing worse than a cold or mild flu, will surely not want to bother taking it.
    Well obviously the likes of Piers Corbyn won't be queuing up to get it.
    Without wanting to give too much away, I'm hearing that many many retailers and entertainment/eating venues in the UK will only let in people who can prove they've had the vaccine.

    I know Ticketmaster US have denied such a policy, but I reckon it is inevitable here and elsewhere.

    Go to Cineworld cinemas because we only let in vaccinated people*, eat at Pizza Hut because we only let in vaccinated people* etc etc.

    *I suspect they'll also let in people who cannot have a vaccine for medical reasons.
    I'd be OK with this assuming supply was plentiful. Having to stay inside and not be able to socialise because you weren't yet selected for a vaccine sounds awful.
    If it goes to plan, I suspect we'd have the vulnerable and key workers vaccinated by the summer of 2021 and everyone else by some time in 2022.
    So we should prepare for 2021 being as crap as 2020?

    If that's the case, I feel like people's expectations are not being managed...
    I suspect once the vulnerable and key workers are vaccinated, then we might see a return to some normality for everybody by the summer of 2021, so long as we engage in things like social distancing, regular hand washing, and mask wearing.

    Oh and localised lockdowns if we have some Covid-19 flare ups.
    We can be more optimistic than that. As soon as they start vaccinating key workers rates of transmission will drop and things will normalise quite quickly. You only need a few million potential spreaders taken out of the loop and the virus will weaken, bigtime,

    I can see late spring 2021 feeling quite "normal".

    Tho you are right that the jabs will become pretty much mandatory, even if they aren't legally required

    dixiedean said:

    What struck me about this was the teenage & twenty-something locals standing around so it takes a 61 year old to act:

    https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1328391951859716097?s=20

    In fairness, many (most?) Chinese can't swim. It really is a remarkable feature of their culture.
    Here. You might drown, so pretty much everyone learns to swim as a child.
    There. You might drown, so don't go near the water.
    I found the same among Ghanians & other West Africans. Though there it seems to be especially the sea.
    FWIW, I can't swim, and know lots of people who can't. We share that we made a few unsuccessful efforts when young, didn't enjoy it, and gave up - the probability that one really needs it is small, though I also know people who really love it. Takes all sorts...
    The probability that one misses out on life hugely by being unable to swim is massive though: you really should try learning. There’s lots to enjoy. Wild swimming is fantastic.
    Lol! You trying to get rid of our good Doctor?!

    I go wild swimming a lot, but it is definitely for strong, experienced swimmers, not beginners.
    Yes, I wasn’t implying that he should try wild swimming before reaching competency!! Was ambiguously written though. Apologies!
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,823
    edited November 2020

    COVID is mostly harmless for fit and healthy under 50s, so prioritising the vulnerable is the way forward, then letting us get on with our lives. If the vulnerable are immunised why does is matter if a bunch of 15-35 year olds get it asymptomatically?

    Once immunisation is freely available, people should be free to choose stupid options.

    Mrs Foxy has been redeployed to Covid-19 ICU. Most of the patients there were younger than her*, all ethnicities and bodyshapes too.

    *maybe a bit biased by entry criteria.
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    And now for something completely different. A very long but very good piece from the New Statesman about the mess our university system is in.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2019/08/great-university-con-how-british-degree-lost-its-value

    It seemed fairly obvious to me 20 years ago as a student - if not the extent. Why has this been ignored by the mainstream media all this time? The critics of grade inflation - usually on the political right - have tended to see it as about creating equality and making people feel good. The reality is that it has always been about money.

    Just like money inflation it just cheapens the product to the extent it becomes worthless . We may have gone over a tipping point in that not long ago British University education was a world respected product .Cheapen it like it has being done and the world will notice and hold another country in esteem.
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    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    The University of Washington model (once much maligned) now predicts that the European country which will do worse overall is...... Germany.


    They envisage Germany enduring 155,000 Covid deaths by March 1 2021. I've no idea how they get the figure, but their model has been honed over time, and has also been quite accurate in recent weeks.

    https://covid19.healthdata.org/germany

    A couple of months ago you already posted a prediction from that site, forecasting the exact same thing, that Germany would have the worst second wave overall.
    A different model (for international, gender-fluid underwear) predicted in early April that "Germany was merely three days behind the UK", when the plague went really rampant.

    How did these predictions hold up? What do the numbers say now, in hindsight?
    I do not believe the Uni of Washington figure. I do not believe that Germany will suffer 155,000 dead by March 21.


    I'm surprised by this prediction now. How on earth do they get to that high number?

    It is particularly surprising, as otherwise, their model has been increasingly reliable and interesting.
This discussion has been closed.