Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Rather than replacing the SoS haven't they got to find some evidence of, y'know, actual fraud and then place that in front of a court and have the court agree with them... all to the extent of 11,500+ votes and counting?
Not wanting to sound like Cassandra, but I did say a few days ago this might happen re finding extra votes in Georgia.
If the Georgia Republican Party chooses to replace THEIR OWN SECRETARY OF STATE for implementing voting by mail legislation THAT THEY THEMSELVES WROTE and decide not to certify the electon, it doesn't result in President Trump having a glorious second term.
It results in civil war and the potential break up of the United States.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
The president, vice president, the attorney general, his advisors, the leader of the senate are all on board and putting in place a coup.
I would love it not to happen and think they will fail eventually. At the moment I cant see who stops them before it gets to the supreme court.
What are the practical steps that stop it reaching the supreme court where we would be relying on Trump appointees.
Saying it wont happen because "it cant happen" without an answer isnt answering the question.
Ok, so.
Let’s think about this.
Mitch McConnell is a very savvy individual. He knows that the entire fabric of the nation will be destroyed if the courts somehow invalidate the election. They won’t, for reasons that have been written about numerous times on here but essentially boil down to the fact that the Supreme Court justices are first and foremost lawyers. And no matter what their own political leanings are, they’re not going to rule in favour of something without evidence.
McConnell knows this. So what’s his angle? He wants the voters to be angry. He wants them to believe the election was stolen from them. He wants this sense of grievance to fire up the base, to give him the best chance of obstructing the new presidency and taking advantage in the midterms. The extra dollars rolling in won’t be overlooked, either.
I like everyone am very concerned at the noise that is coming out of the Republican Party right now. But not because I think a coup is imminent. More that it makes coup more likely in the future. If you keep picking threads at the edges of a tapestry, then eventually the whole thing will unravel.
If states decide to disregard election results for some excuse or other, all the Supreme Court has to do is chant "states' rights" and decline to get involved.
Anyone on here who gives the slightest credence to the idea there is a realistic court route for Trump or even the glimmer of a chance for him "coz Supreme Court" knows sod all about the law and sod all about lawyers, and simply shouldn't be taken seriously ever again.
I admit I dont know about American constitutional law. I think its a fair question to ask - when the President, VP, AG and Senate leader are on board with a plan to overturn an election - what processes actually stop them "before" it reaches the SC.
There's no fucking chance that Trump and other idiot republicans steal the election. There would be an actual civil war. Biden won fair and square.
What they should be concentrating on is the 71m people who voted for Trump and showing that their agenda isn't as dead and buried as the liberal lamestream media etc... likes to pretend.
Plotting to steal the election shows how deeply unfit for government the Republican party is, senators and congressmen everywhere should be disowning the leadership over this and calling on Trump to accept reality. If they don't then the whole party needs to be junked and reset to represent the values of Lincoln.
Yes, 71m votes for Trump tells me that American politics is becoming racialised: but not in a way Lefties might have hoped. White Americans have started to self identify as white, and therefore as supporters of the White Party: the Republicans - ie the party not intrinsically hostile to them, by nature of their colour
It is a beautiful historical irony. God is a novelist. Until US Whites are such a tiny minority it doesn't matter, this is potentially transformative for Republicans, in a good way, electorally.
They have to play it cleverly though. Trump played it hideously but still nearly won two terms
"White people have started to identify as white"
How stupid are you? America is a nation of slavery. Started! A nation founded on the distinction between person and non-person. Of Jim Crow of Segregation Now Segregation Forever.
Fuuuuuucking hell.
I bet you think you were really clever when you wrote that.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
Is the failure to provide our elected representatives adequate data concerning the situation in the NHS before they voted on lockdown 2.0, contempt of Parliament asks Toby Young.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Rather than replacing the SoS haven't they got to find some evidence of, y'know, actual fraud and then place that in front of a court and have the court agree with them... all to the extent of 11,500+ votes and counting?
I dont think so. If the new SoS says the election is invalid, it gives them cover to replace the EC delegates with ones chosen by the state legislatures.
If they do that without evidence, then I doubt I am the only one who fears for American democracy.
Systems matter. I'd rather have a terrible Prime Ministers and a working system, than a great leader and no mechanism for his replacement.
Well, have to admit Trump's tweet re the vaccine did get me suspicious, it didn't sound like the
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Rather than replacing the SoS haven't they got to find some evidence of, y'know, actual fraud and then place that in front of a court and have the court agree with them... all to the extent of 11,500+ votes and counting?
I dont think so. If the new SoS says the election is invalid, it gives them cover to replace the EC delegates with ones chosen by the state legislatures.
If they do that without evidence, then I doubt I am the only one who fears for American democracy.
Systems matter. I'd rather have a terrible Prime Ministers and a working system, than a great leader and no mechanism for his replacement.
I don't think it will be as direct as that. From what it appears, the strategy seems to be to say to the Democrats "support an investigation or our state assemblies will chose different electors". If that is rejected, the GOP will then use that as an excuse to claim that the Ds are trying to hide something.
It's a terrible state of affairs. Will it lead to the collapse of American Democracy? Being blunt, I'm not sure. What happens if Georgia says "you know what, we found out 10,000 votes were misallocated to the Ds and now are going to the GOP" like what happened in Michigan. Where's your proof that they did? I'm not sure we would see a mass rising outside the cities off the back of this.
It is an absolute sh1tshow and, if the election is stolen, it will be a catastrophe. I didn't support the whole Russia 2016 thing and I don't support Trump stealing an election. I just think, given the margins involved, more than a few will close their eyes.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
Nevertheless, if Georgia were to refuse to certify its election results, it would send a *very* poor signal.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
This debate is getting a little silly. Panicky McPanick Panickfaces everywhere. Chillax. Trump is done. But if we want the system to survive, we have to let him use the system too. He will, and he will be shown up to be an empty suit by the system.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Rather than replacing the SoS haven't they got to find some evidence of, y'know, actual fraud and then place that in front of a court and have the court agree with them... all to the extent of 11,500+ votes and counting?
Not wanting to sound like Cassandra, but I did say a few days ago this might happen re finding extra votes in Georgia.
They haven't found extra votes though – he's behind by more than 12k.
There's no fucking chance that Trump and other idiot republicans steal the election. There would be an actual civil war. Biden won fair and square.
What they should be concentrating on is the 71m people who voted for Trump and showing that their agenda isn't as dead and buried as the liberal lamestream media etc... likes to pretend.
Plotting to steal the election shows how deeply unfit for government the Republican party is, senators and congressmen everywhere should be disowning the leadership over this and calling on Trump to accept reality. If they don't then the whole party needs to be junked and reset to represent the values of Lincoln.
Yes, 71m votes for Trump tells me that American politics is becoming racialised: but not in a way Lefties might have hoped. White Americans have started to self identify as white, and therefore as supporters of the White Party: the Republicans - ie the party not intrinsically hostile to them, by nature of their colour
It is a beautiful historical irony. God is a novelist. Until US Whites are such a tiny minority it doesn't matter, this is potentially transformative for Republicans, in a good way, electorally.
They have to play it cleverly though. Trump played it hideously but still nearly won two terms
"White people have started to identify as white"
How stupid are you? America is a nation of slavery. Started! A nation founded on the distinction between person and non-person. Of Jim Crow of Segregation Now Segregation Forever.
Fuuuuuucking hell.
I bet you think you were really clever when you wrote that.
Does Mitch McConnell actually want a civil war in America? Maybe he figures that somehow at the end of it he would hailed as King of Whats Left?
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
The legislatures are responsible for choosing electors. The SC has been very clear about that. Doesn't mean they have carte blanche but they do have a fair amount of discretion.
Anyone trying to give it the "Oh the Republican party are a legitimate and serious party of government" after today can get fucked.
This is breaking point. If they are actively backing Trump then they are fascists. If they are scared of being primaried by their base they they are despicable cowards. Maybe try not to have a base made up of facists you wankers.
They are despicable cowards. They want Trump to concede on his own, while they keep the Trump base on side.
So far, we've seen (I think) only Romney and Toomey, of the incumbent Republican Senators, congratulate Biden.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Rather than replacing the SoS haven't they got to find some evidence of, y'know, actual fraud and then place that in front of a court and have the court agree with them... all to the extent of 11,500+ votes and counting?
Not wanting to sound like Cassandra, but I did say a few days ago this might happen re finding extra votes in Georgia.
If the Georgia Republican Party chooses to replace THEIR OWN SECRETARY OF STATE for implementing voting by mail legislation THAT THEY THEMSELVES WROTE and decide not to certify the electon, it doesn't result in President Trump having a glorious second term.
It results in civil war and the potential break up of the United States.
Do you think I think this is a great idea? It's absolutely catastrophic.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Rather than replacing the SoS haven't they got to find some evidence of, y'know, actual fraud and then place that in front of a court and have the court agree with them... all to the extent of 11,500+ votes and counting?
Not wanting to sound like Cassandra, but I did say a few days ago this might happen re finding extra votes in Georgia.
They haven't found extra votes though – he's behind by more than 12k.
Oh, absolutely not but I wonder how much pressure is being put on the SoS to find them.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
The legislatures are responsible for choosing electors. The SC has been very clear about that. Doesn't mean they have carte blanche but they do have a fair amount of discretion.
They are responsible for the laws that say how the electors are chosen, but they can't go back and change them now retrospectively.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
The legislatures are responsible for choosing electors. The SC has been very clear about that. Doesn't mean they have carte blanche but they do have a fair amount of discretion.
Correct, but how do they do that? By passing a law. They can of course pass another law saying that in future their state's electoral votes go to the candidate with the most orange hue. But that can only apply from the next Presidential election.
The Constitution of the United States of America, Article I, Section 10: "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
The legislatures are responsible for choosing electors. The SC has been very clear about that. Doesn't mean they have carte blanche but they do have a fair amount of discretion.
If the Republican SOS were to certify results with the Dem having won the State, then it would require the Electors to be utterly faithless.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
Nevertheless, if Georgia were to refuse to certify its election results, it would send a *very* poor signal.
They will likely also use the fact that Abrams never conceded in Georgia 2018 and said that wasnt a fair election.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
The legislatures are responsible for choosing electors. The SC has been very clear about that. Doesn't mean they have carte blanche but they do have a fair amount of discretion.
Correct, but how do they do that? By passing a law. They can of course pass another law saying that in future their state's electoral votes go to the candidate with the most orange hue. But that can only apply from the next Presidential election.
The Constitution of the United States of America, Article I, Section 10: "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Rather than replacing the SoS haven't they got to find some evidence of, y'know, actual fraud and then place that in front of a court and have the court agree with them... all to the extent of 11,500+ votes and counting?
I dont think so. If the new SoS says the election is invalid, it gives them cover to replace the EC delegates with ones chosen by the state legislatures.
If they do that without evidence, then I doubt I am the only one who fears for American democracy.
Systems matter. I'd rather have a terrible Prime Ministers and a working system, than a great leader and no mechanism for his replacement.
Well, have to admit Trump's tweet re the vaccine did get me suspicious, it didn't sound like the
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Rather than replacing the SoS haven't they got to find some evidence of, y'know, actual fraud and then place that in front of a court and have the court agree with them... all to the extent of 11,500+ votes and counting?
I dont think so. If the new SoS says the election is invalid, it gives them cover to replace the EC delegates with ones chosen by the state legislatures.
If they do that without evidence, then I doubt I am the only one who fears for American democracy.
Systems matter. I'd rather have a terrible Prime Ministers and a working system, than a great leader and no mechanism for his replacement.
I don't think it will be as direct as that. From what it appears, the strategy seems to be to say to the Democrats "support an investigation or our state assemblies will chose different electors". If that is rejected, the GOP will then use that as an excuse to claim that the Ds are trying to hide something.
It's a terrible state of affairs. Will it lead to the collapse of American Democracy? Being blunt, I'm not sure. What happens if Georgia says "you know what, we found out 10,000 votes were misallocated to the Ds and now are going to the GOP" like what happened in Michigan. Where's your proof that they did? I'm not sure we would see a mass rising outside the cities off the back of this.
It is an absolute sh1tshow and, if the election is stolen, it will be a catastrophe. I didn't support the whole Russia 2016 thing and I don't support Trump stealing an election. I just think, given the margins involved, more than a few will close their eyes.
If it turns out there were 10,000 misallocated ballots, then absolutely Trump should win Georgia.
But it's not very likely. These voting systems have been used for a decade; is there any evidence of any historic widespread misallocation?
And there's also the other issue (in Georgia as well as elsewhere): the Republicans down ticket did rather well, there as just a surprising amount of vote splitting at the top of the ticket.
Would the PB headless chicken coup crowd kindly return to the oven.
There's as much chance of a coup as TSE becoming inaugurated on 20th January as President of the Pineapple Pizza Appreciation Society and burning his red shoes on the podium.
Anyone on here who gives the slightest credence to the idea there is a realistic court route for Trump or even the glimmer of a chance for him "coz Supreme Court" knows sod all about the law and sod all about lawyers, and simply shouldn't be taken seriously ever again.
I admit I dont know about American constitutional law. I think its a fair question to ask - when the President, VP, AG and Senate leader are on board with a plan to overturn an election - what processes actually stop them "before" it reaches the SC.
They don't select the President, the Electoral College does. The Electoral College is appointed by the states, ALL of which have established legislation for that basis requiring this to be in line with the popular vote in the state (contrary to all this nonsense about legislatures refusing to certify or sending their own electors contrary to the popular vote in the state). They can't change those laws retrospectively now the election is done.
Even if there was a serious move by Republican legislatures of state governments in a state that had voted for Biden to do something else, the existing laws are easily enforceable through state and potentially federal courts. And it's madness to think there would be a serious move as those states have just voted for Biden for goodness sake, and you are never going to get the majority of elected Republicans to commit suicide for the sake of something utterly doomed in the courts.
And it would need to happen in multiple states! It's completely bonkers to think there's the tiniest chance of it happening, and all the people entertaining it for a moment are blustering halfwits who have no idea what they are talking about.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
The legislatures are responsible for choosing electors. The SC has been very clear about that. Doesn't mean they have carte blanche but they do have a fair amount of discretion.
Correct, but how do they do that? By passing a law. They can of course pass another law saying that in future their state's electoral votes go to the candidate with the most orange hue. But that can only apply from the next Presidential election.
The Constitution of the United States of America, Article I, Section 10: "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
The legislatures are responsible for choosing electors. The SC has been very clear about that. Doesn't mean they have carte blanche but they do have a fair amount of discretion.
Correct, but how do they do that? By passing a law. They can of course pass another law saying that in future their state's electoral votes go to the candidate with the most orange hue. But that can only apply from the next Presidential election.
The Constitution of the United States of America, Article I, Section 10: "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."
Well one of those is no longer the law...
Really? Which?
"make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts;"
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Rather than replacing the SoS haven't they got to find some evidence of, y'know, actual fraud and then place that in front of a court and have the court agree with them... all to the extent of 11,500+ votes and counting?
Not wanting to sound like Cassandra, but I did say a few days ago this might happen re finding extra votes in Georgia.
If the Georgia Republican Party chooses to replace THEIR OWN SECRETARY OF STATE for implementing voting by mail legislation THAT THEY THEMSELVES WROTE and decide not to certify the electon, it doesn't result in President Trump having a glorious second term.
It results in civil war and the potential break up of the United States.
The GA SoS is elected I believe. How does the GA GOP replace him?
What is the general view on Trump's sacking of the Defense Secretary? A man who strongly objected to Trump sending in the national guard to quell disorder in states?
There's no fucking chance that Trump and other idiot republicans steal the election. There would be an actual civil war. Biden won fair and square.
What they should be concentrating on is the 71m people who voted for Trump and showing that their agenda isn't as dead and buried as the liberal lamestream media etc... likes to pretend.
Plotting to steal the election shows how deeply unfit for government the Republican party is, senators and congressmen everywhere should be disowning the leadership over this and calling on Trump to accept reality. If they don't then the whole party needs to be junked and reset to represent the values of Lincoln.
Yes, 71m votes for Trump tells me that American politics is becoming racialised: but not in a way Lefties might have hoped. White Americans have started to self identify as white, and therefore as supporters of the White Party: the Republicans - ie the party not intrinsically hostile to them, by nature of their colour
It is a beautiful historical irony. God is a novelist. Until US Whites are such a tiny minority it doesn't matter, this is potentially transformative for Republicans, in a good way, electorally.
They have to play it cleverly though. Trump played it hideously but still nearly won two terms
"White people have started to identify as white"
How stupid are you? America is a nation of slavery. Started! A nation founded on the distinction between person and non-person. Of Jim Crow of Segregation Now Segregation Forever.
Fuuuuuucking hell.
I bet you think you were really clever when you wrote that.
Does Mitch McConnell actually want a civil war in America? Maybe he figures that somehow at the end of it he would hailed as King of Whats Left?
No, Mitch doesn't want a civil war. He does want to 1) be in charge 2) rub Dems faces in it.
There's no fucking chance that Trump and other idiot republicans steal the election. There would be an actual civil war. Biden won fair and square.
What they should be concentrating on is the 71m people who voted for Trump and showing that their agenda isn't as dead and buried as the liberal lamestream media etc... likes to pretend.
Plotting to steal the election shows how deeply unfit for government the Republican party is, senators and congressmen everywhere should be disowning the leadership over this and calling on Trump to accept reality. If they don't then the whole party needs to be junked and reset to represent the values of Lincoln.
Yes, 71m votes for Trump tells me that American politics is becoming racialised: but not in a way Lefties might have hoped. White Americans have started to self identify as white, and therefore as supporters of the White Party: the Republicans - ie the party not intrinsically hostile to them, by nature of their colour
It is a beautiful historical irony. God is a novelist. Until US Whites are such a tiny minority it doesn't matter, this is potentially transformative for Republicans, in a good way, electorally.
They have to play it cleverly though. Trump played it hideously but still nearly won two terms
"White people have started to identify as white"
How stupid are you? America is a nation of slavery. Started! A nation founded on the distinction between person and non-person. Of Jim Crow of Segregation Now Segregation Forever.
Fuuuuuucking hell.
I bet you think you were really clever when you wrote that.
lol. Calm down.
Until now whites in America have basically seen both major parties as "being on their side". Recall that the Democrats were the party of Old Dixie, the go-to party of many bigoted southern Whites. Abraham Lincoln was a Republican.
My point is that white voting may now polarise, racially, behind one single populist Trumpist party, the new Republicans. If that happens it is a calamity for the USA.
"With the perspective of time, the Trump era is likely to be viewed as an extended stress test for the American experiment. The president did his best to undermine the nation’s democratic foundations. They were shaken, but they did not break."
What is the general view on Trump's sacking of the Defense Secretary? A man who strongly objected to Trump sending in the national guard to quell disorder in states?
More importantly, I suspect he has told Trump it's time to concede.
Anyone on here who gives the slightest credence to the idea there is a realistic court route for Trump or even the glimmer of a chance for him "coz Supreme Court" knows sod all about the law and sod all about lawyers, and simply shouldn't be taken seriously ever again.
I admit I dont know about American constitutional law. I think its a fair question to ask - when the President, VP, AG and Senate leader are on board with a plan to overturn an election - what processes actually stop them "before" it reaches the SC.
They don't select the President, the Electoral College does. The Electoral College is appointed by the states, ALL of which have established legislation for that basis requiring this to be in line with the popular vote in the state (contrary to all this nonsense about legislatures refusing to certify or sending their own electors contrary to the popular vote in the state). They can't change those laws retrospectively now the election is done.
Even if there was a serious move by Republican legislatures of state governments in a state that had voted for Biden to do something else, the existing laws are easily enforceable through state and potentially federal courts. And it's madness to think there would be a serious move as those states have just voted for Biden for goodness sake, and you are never going to get the majority of elected Republicans to commit suicide for the sake of something utterly doomed in the courts.
And it would need to happen in multiple states! It's completely bonkers to think there's the tiniest chance of it happening, and all the people entertaining it for a moment are blustering halfwits who have no idea what they are talking about.
Yes, it's really quite pathetic. And it gives Trump oxygen, this weak thinking. PB at its worst.
Anyone on here who gives the slightest credence to the idea there is a realistic court route for Trump or even the glimmer of a chance for him "coz Supreme Court" knows sod all about the law and sod all about lawyers, and simply shouldn't be taken seriously ever again.
I admit I dont know about American constitutional law. I think its a fair question to ask - when the President, VP, AG and Senate leader are on board with a plan to overturn an election - what processes actually stop them "before" it reaches the SC.
They don't select the President, the Electoral College does. The Electoral College is appointed by the states, ALL of which have established legislation for that basis requiring this to be in line with the popular vote in the state (contrary to all this nonsense about legislatures refusing to certify or sending their own electors contrary to the popular vote in the state). They can't change those laws retrospectively now the election is done.
Even if there was a serious move by Republican legislatures of state governments in a state that had voted for Biden to do something else, the existing laws are easily enforceable through state and potentially federal courts. And it's madness to think there would be a serious move as those states have just voted for Biden for goodness sake, and you are never going to get the majority of elected Republicans to commit suicide for the sake of something utterly doomed in the courts.
And it would need to happen in multiple states! It's completely bonkers to think there's the tiniest chance of it happening, and all the people entertaining it for a moment are blustering halfwits who have no idea what they are talking about.
Fine to keep calling me a halfwit for asking questions and being concerned. So far only 3 Republican senators recognise Biden as the winner, they are hardly queueing up on the side you expect them to?
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
The legislatures are responsible for choosing electors. The SC has been very clear about that. Doesn't mean they have carte blanche but they do have a fair amount of discretion.
Correct, but how do they do that? By passing a law. They can of course pass another law saying that in future their state's electoral votes go to the candidate with the most orange hue. But that can only apply from the next Presidential election.
The Constitution of the United States of America, Article I, Section 10: "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."
Well one of those is no longer the law...
Really? Which?
"make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts;"
Which amendment repealed that? That section is a limitation on the powers of the states. Congress is limited by the previous section, Article I, Section 9, and it doesn't contain any such provision about tender. The Founding Fathers didn't want the national finances to be wrecked by a rogue state issuing worthless paper money, but they had no qualms about the federal government doing so!
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
The legislatures are responsible for choosing electors. The SC has been very clear about that. Doesn't mean they have carte blanche but they do have a fair amount of discretion.
Correct, but how do they do that? By passing a law. They can of course pass another law saying that in future their state's electoral votes go to the candidate with the most orange hue. But that can only apply from the next Presidential election.
The Constitution of the United States of America, Article I, Section 10: "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."
Not necessarily.
It's right, laws in all states determine that voters have the power to select electors.
However, the SC has also been very clear that state legislatures have a right to take it back under Article II and the SC have stated this more than once. In fact, the SC said this in 2000 when “may, if it so chooses, select the electors itself,” and it retains authority to “take back the power to appoint electors,” even if it formerly let the popular vote make the decision. It also reaffirmed the point this year.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
Nevertheless, if Georgia were to refuse to certify its election results, it would send a *very* poor signal.
They will likely also use the fact that Abrams never conceded in Georgia 2018 and said that wasnt a fair election.
And yet... Abrams did not subsequently ignore the election to become Governor.
Since 1928 only three elections have not had an incumbent President or Veep as the nominee on the ballot: 1952, 1968 and 2016.
....
And in 1968 although there was no incumbent P or VP, Nixon had already been VP for 8 years.
Indeed.
So since the Wall Street Crash only 1952 and 2016 had no current or former P or VP on a ticket. Some years both parties did (eg Reagan v Mondale or Trump v Biden).
The odds have to be overwhelming favourite for her to be the nominee. Xkcd applies, she might lose, but it would go against all precedent for her to do so.
Who was/were the current/former P/VP on the ticket in 2008?
Oops you're right. How did I miss that one?
Still any others? And worth noting that in 2008 like 2016 no incumbent chose to run - when an incumbent chooses to run you have to go back to 1952 or 1968 to see them get defeated, unless I've missed something else?
If the Republican SOS were to certify results with the Dem having won the State, then it would require the Electors to be utterly faithless.
And who could stop them?
The slate of electors if Biden wins a state is chosen by the state Democratic Party and, if Trump wins, by the state GOP. So faithlessness on the scale it would be needed simply is not happening. Maybe if the result was 270 to 268 something weird could happen at the edges, and it's not historically unknown to have a few faithless votes when the result is certain anyway. But, honestly, no chance whatsoever of this coming into play.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
The legislatures are responsible for choosing electors. The SC has been very clear about that. Doesn't mean they have carte blanche but they do have a fair amount of discretion.
Correct, but how do they do that? By passing a law. They can of course pass another law saying that in future their state's electoral votes go to the candidate with the most orange hue. But that can only apply from the next Presidential election.
The Constitution of the United States of America, Article I, Section 10: "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."
Well one of those is no longer the law...
Really? Which?
"make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts;"
Which amendment repealed that? That section is a limitation on the powers of the states. Congress is limited by the previous section, Article I, Section 9, and it doesn't contain any such provision about tender. The Founding Fathers didn't want the national finances to be wrecked by a rogue state issuing worthless paper money, but they had no qualms about the federal government doing so!
I don't think there is any realistic chance of some of these wild speculations happening. However, there is a chance that they get far more advanced than they should be allowed to because many GOP politicians are too scared of putting a stop to it out of fear of what it will do to their electoral base. They are all trying to keep quiet or humour Trump in the hope that it fizzles out naturally. And if it does get more and more advanced there suddenly become the risks of accidents happening due to unrest or violence on the streets etc.
The problem is that this approach means that Trump is getting all his 'advice' from the made triumvirate of Rudi Guiliani, Donald Trump jnr and Eric trump. Who will push Trump himself over the edge unless their is some pushback from somewhere. It could get pretty dangerous.
If the Republican SOS were to certify results with the Dem having won the State, then it would require the Electors to be utterly faithless.
And who could stop them?
The slate of electors if Biden wins a state is chosen by the state Democratic Party and, if Trump wins, by the state GOP. So faithlessness on the scale it would be needed simply is not happening. Maybe if the result was 270 to 268 something weird could happen at the edges, and it's not historically unknown to have a few faithless votes when the result is certain anyway. But, honestly, no chance whatsoever of this coming into play.
You can't have faithless electors - the SC was very clear on this when it ruled post-2016
Anyone on here who gives the slightest credence to the idea there is a realistic court route for Trump or even the glimmer of a chance for him "coz Supreme Court" knows sod all about the law and sod all about lawyers, and simply shouldn't be taken seriously ever again.
I admit I dont know about American constitutional law. I think its a fair question to ask - when the President, VP, AG and Senate leader are on board with a plan to overturn an election - what processes actually stop them "before" it reaches the SC.
They don't select the President, the Electoral College does. The Electoral College is appointed by the states, ALL of which have established legislation for that basis requiring this to be in line with the popular vote in the state (contrary to all this nonsense about legislatures refusing to certify or sending their own electors contrary to the popular vote in the state). They can't change those laws retrospectively now the election is done.
Even if there was a serious move by Republican legislatures of state governments in a state that had voted for Biden to do something else, the existing laws are easily enforceable through state and potentially federal courts. And it's madness to think there would be a serious move as those states have just voted for Biden for goodness sake, and you are never going to get the majority of elected Republicans to commit suicide for the sake of something utterly doomed in the courts.
And it would need to happen in multiple states! It's completely bonkers to think there's the tiniest chance of it happening, and all the people entertaining it for a moment are blustering halfwits who have no idea what they are talking about.
Yes, it's really quite pathetic. And it gives Trump oxygen, this weak thinking. PB at its worst.
Tbf, I don't think comments on PB add a lot to Trump's oxygen.
There's no fucking chance that Trump and other idiot republicans steal the election. There would be an actual civil war. Biden won fair and square.
What they should be concentrating on is the 71m people who voted for Trump and showing that their agenda isn't as dead and buried as the liberal lamestream media etc... likes to pretend.
Plotting to steal the election shows how deeply unfit for government the Republican party is, senators and congressmen everywhere should be disowning the leadership over this and calling on Trump to accept reality. If they don't then the whole party needs to be junked and reset to represent the values of Lincoln.
Yes, 71m votes for Trump tells me that American politics is becoming racialised: but not in a way Lefties might have hoped. White Americans have started to self identify as white, and therefore as supporters of the White Party: the Republicans - ie the party not intrinsically hostile to them, by nature of their colour
It is a beautiful historical irony. God is a novelist. Until US Whites are such a tiny minority it doesn't matter, this is potentially transformative for Republicans, in a good way, electorally.
They have to play it cleverly though. Trump played it hideously but still nearly won two terms
"White people have started to identify as white"
How stupid are you? America is a nation of slavery. Started! A nation founded on the distinction between person and non-person. Of Jim Crow of Segregation Now Segregation Forever.
Fuuuuuucking hell.
I bet you think you were really clever when you wrote that.
lol. Calm down.
Until now whites in America have basically seen both major parties as "being on their side". Recall that the Democrats were the party of Old Dixie, the go-to party of many bigoted southern Whites. Abraham Lincoln was a Republican.
My point is that white voting may now polarise, racially, behind one single populist Trumpist party, the new Republicans. If that happens it is a calamity for the USA.
42% of whites supported Biden. Not exactly a slam dunk is it?
What is the general view on Trump's sacking of the Defense Secretary? A man who strongly objected to Trump sending in the national guard to quell disorder in states?
Do Acting Secretaries count when cabinet votes are tallied for the 25th amendment?
Anyone on here who gives the slightest credence to the idea there is a realistic court route for Trump or even the glimmer of a chance for him "coz Supreme Court" knows sod all about the law and sod all about lawyers, and simply shouldn't be taken seriously ever again.
I admit I dont know about American constitutional law. I think its a fair question to ask - when the President, VP, AG and Senate leader are on board with a plan to overturn an election - what processes actually stop them "before" it reaches the SC.
They don't select the President, the Electoral College does. The Electoral College is appointed by the states, ALL of which have established legislation for that basis requiring this to be in line with the popular vote in the state (contrary to all this nonsense about legislatures refusing to certify or sending their own electors contrary to the popular vote in the state). They can't change those laws retrospectively now the election is done.
Even if there was a serious move by Republican legislatures of state governments in a state that had voted for Biden to do something else, the existing laws are easily enforceable through state and potentially federal courts. And it's madness to think there would be a serious move as those states have just voted for Biden for goodness sake, and you are never going to get the majority of elected Republicans to commit suicide for the sake of something utterly doomed in the courts.
And it would need to happen in multiple states! It's completely bonkers to think there's the tiniest chance of it happening, and all the people entertaining it for a moment are blustering halfwits who have no idea what they are talking about.
Yes, it's really quite pathetic. And it gives Trump oxygen, this weak thinking. PB at its worst.
Tbf, I don't think comments on PB add a lot to Trump's oxygen.
Imagine if he did quote someone from here.. Who do you think would be the favourite for that honour?!
I don't think there is any realistic chance of some of these wild speculations happening. However, there is a chance that they get far more advanced than they should be allowed to because many GOP politicians are too scared of putting a stop to it out of fear of what it will do to their electoral base. They are all trying to keep quiet or humour Trump in the hope that it fizzles out naturally. And if it does get more and more advanced there suddenly become the risks of accidents happening due to unrest or violence on the streets etc.
The problem is that this approach means that Trump is getting all his 'advice' from the made triumvirate of Rudi Guiliani, Donald Trump jnr and Eric trump. Who will push Trump himself over the edge unless their is some pushback from somewhere. It could get pretty dangerous.
Time for Romney to call together whatever sane heads he can find in the GOP and make a collective statement for democracy.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
Bollocks! Ain't. Going. To. Happen.
I hope you are right and do think the Supreme court will stop it, but who else is going to stop it before it gets there?
In Georgia it looks like the local party are trying to kick out Raffensberger as he wont go along with it. They are doing these things to get yes men into all the key roles.
If they can replace the election officials and the supreme court does rule in their favour, then whats left to stop them?
Civil war?
Seriously.
If the election were to be overturned in some kind of anti-Democratic coup I would absolutely not rule out the secession of the blue states.
How can the courts institute a coup? Isn't that a contradiction in terms. A few months ago we were told that the UK Supreme Court was ordering the government what to do in this country in order to stop a coup from happening.
The courts can't but the various legislatures can refuse to certify results due to massive fraud. If WI, PA, MI legislatures are onboard they simply don't cast electoral college votes and it gets thrown to the house along 12th amendment lines which Trump wins as more state delegations are GOP compared to Democrat. If this all sounds mad, it's because it is. But the GOP are looking rather mad right now.
Don't forget Trump's base FIRMLY BELIEVES BIDEN is instigating a coup right now.
Legislatures don't certify election results. Secretaries of State or their local equivalent do. The Secretaries of State of Michigan and Wisconsin and the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania are all Democrats.
Nevertheless, if Georgia were to refuse to certify its election results, it would send a *very* poor signal.
They will likely also use the fact that Abrams never conceded in Georgia 2018 and said that wasnt a fair election.
And yet... Abrams did not subsequently ignore the election to become Governor.
I am predicting the arguments and tactics they will use, not endorsing them or suggesting there is any logic or substance behind them. It will be:
2018 Georgia election was corrupt says top Democrat, 2020 Georgia election corrupt say Republicans. Clearly something fundamentally wrong in Georgia elections which justifies reselecting the EC delegates, or perhaps not sending any with aim of stopping either candidate reaching 270.
What is the general view on Trump's sacking of the Defense Secretary? A man who strongly objected to Trump sending in the national guard to quell disorder in states?
He'd was resigning at the end of the week anyways. This was just Trump being a man baby again.
Anyone on here who gives the slightest credence to the idea there is a realistic court route for Trump or even the glimmer of a chance for him "coz Supreme Court" knows sod all about the law and sod all about lawyers, and simply shouldn't be taken seriously ever again.
I admit I dont know about American constitutional law. I think its a fair question to ask - when the President, VP, AG and Senate leader are on board with a plan to overturn an election - what processes actually stop them "before" it reaches the SC.
They don't select the President, the Electoral College does. The Electoral College is appointed by the states, ALL of which have established legislation for that basis requiring this to be in line with the popular vote in the state (contrary to all this nonsense about legislatures refusing to certify or sending their own electors contrary to the popular vote in the state). They can't change those laws retrospectively now the election is done.
Even if there was a serious move by Republican legislatures of state governments in a state that had voted for Biden to do something else, the existing laws are easily enforceable through state and potentially federal courts. And it's madness to think there would be a serious move as those states have just voted for Biden for goodness sake, and you are never going to get the majority of elected Republicans to commit suicide for the sake of something utterly doomed in the courts.
And it would need to happen in multiple states! It's completely bonkers to think there's the tiniest chance of it happening, and all the people entertaining it for a moment are blustering halfwits who have no idea what they are talking about.
No, they are not. The SC have recognised the right of state legislatures to take back the right to appoint electors from voters. It was stated in 2000 in the whole Florida debacle.
Since 1928 only three elections have not had an incumbent President or Veep as the nominee on the ballot: 1952, 1968 and 2016.
....
And in 1968 although there was no incumbent P or VP, Nixon had already been VP for 8 years.
Indeed.
So since the Wall Street Crash only 1952 and 2016 had no current or former P or VP on a ticket. Some years both parties did (eg Reagan v Mondale or Trump v Biden).
The odds have to be overwhelming favourite for her to be the nominee. Xkcd applies, she might lose, but it would go against all precedent for her to do so.
Who was/were the current/former P/VP on the ticket in 2008?
Oops you're right. How did I miss that one?
Still any others? And worth noting that in 2008 like 2016 no incumbent chose to run - when an incumbent chooses to run you have to go back to 1952 or 1968 to see them get defeated, unless I've missed something else?
Anyone on here who gives the slightest credence to the idea there is a realistic court route for Trump or even the glimmer of a chance for him "coz Supreme Court" knows sod all about the law and sod all about lawyers, and simply shouldn't be taken seriously ever again.
I admit I dont know about American constitutional law. I think its a fair question to ask - when the President, VP, AG and Senate leader are on board with a plan to overturn an election - what processes actually stop them "before" it reaches the SC.
They don't select the President, the Electoral College does. The Electoral College is appointed by the states, ALL of which have established legislation for that basis requiring this to be in line with the popular vote in the state (contrary to all this nonsense about legislatures refusing to certify or sending their own electors contrary to the popular vote in the state). They can't change those laws retrospectively now the election is done.
Even if there was a serious move by Republican legislatures of state governments in a state that had voted for Biden to do something else, the existing laws are easily enforceable through state and potentially federal courts. And it's madness to think there would be a serious move as those states have just voted for Biden for goodness sake, and you are never going to get the majority of elected Republicans to commit suicide for the sake of something utterly doomed in the courts.
And it would need to happen in multiple states! It's completely bonkers to think there's the tiniest chance of it happening, and all the people entertaining it for a moment are blustering halfwits who have no idea what they are talking about.
Yes, it's really quite pathetic. And it gives Trump oxygen, this weak thinking. PB at its worst.
Tbf, I don't think comments on PB add a lot to Trump's oxygen.
Imagine if he did quote someone from here.. Who do you think would be the favourite for that honour?!
He simply needs to be the person the public sees as being the reasonable adult in the room, and to have regular coffee mornings with Collins, Murkowski and Romney, plus perhaps one or two others who see a sudden opportunity to wield disproportionate power.
There are some Democrats who think, because Biden isn't likely to control the Senate, he might as well write off the first two years at least and get into the trenches with them. They're wrong.
There's no fucking chance that Trump and other idiot republicans steal the election. There would be an actual civil war. Biden won fair and square.
What they should be concentrating on is the 71m people who voted for Trump and showing that their agenda isn't as dead and buried as the liberal lamestream media etc... likes to pretend.
Plotting to steal the election shows how deeply unfit for government the Republican party is, senators and congressmen everywhere should be disowning the leadership over this and calling on Trump to accept reality. If they don't then the whole party needs to be junked and reset to represent the values of Lincoln.
Yes, 71m votes for Trump tells me that American politics is becoming racialised: but not in a way Lefties might have hoped. White Americans have started to self identify as white, and therefore as supporters of the White Party: the Republicans - ie the party not intrinsically hostile to them, by nature of their colour
It is a beautiful historical irony. God is a novelist. Until US Whites are such a tiny minority it doesn't matter, this is potentially transformative for Republicans, in a good way, electorally.
They have to play it cleverly though. Trump played it hideously but still nearly won two terms
"White people have started to identify as white"
How stupid are you? America is a nation of slavery. Started! A nation founded on the distinction between person and non-person. Of Jim Crow of Segregation Now Segregation Forever.
Fuuuuuucking hell.
I bet you think you were really clever when you wrote that.
lol. Calm down.
Until now whites in America have basically seen both major parties as "being on their side". Recall that the Democrats were the party of Old Dixie, the go-to party of many bigoted southern Whites. Abraham Lincoln was a Republican.
My point is that white voting may now polarise, racially, behind one single populist Trumpist party, the new Republicans. If that happens it is a calamity for the USA.
42% of whites supported Biden. Not exactly a slam dunk is it?
No, not al all. But Biden was arguably the most centrist on the Democrat list.
I reckon Biden will be a one term prez, just because of age, and if the Dems are entirely captured, during his tenure, by ID politics (which looks highly possible) then I reckon whites would, in the face of a new BLMy Dem candidate, shift en masse to the Republicans.
TBH it already amazes me that in 2020 a large majority of American whites were prepared to vote for Trump, despite him being an obvious, dangerous moron. It is not a good sign.
There's no fucking chance that Trump and other idiot republicans steal the election. There would be an actual civil war. Biden won fair and square.
What they should be concentrating on is the 71m people who voted for Trump and showing that their agenda isn't as dead and buried as the liberal lamestream media etc... likes to pretend.
Plotting to steal the election shows how deeply unfit for government the Republican party is, senators and congressmen everywhere should be disowning the leadership over this and calling on Trump to accept reality. If they don't then the whole party needs to be junked and reset to represent the values of Lincoln.
Yes, 71m votes for Trump tells me that American politics is becoming racialised: but not in a way Lefties might have hoped. White Americans have started to self identify as white, and therefore as supporters of the White Party: the Republicans - ie the party not intrinsically hostile to them, by nature of their colour
It is a beautiful historical irony. God is a novelist. Until US Whites are such a tiny minority it doesn't matter, this is potentially transformative for Republicans, in a good way, electorally.
They have to play it cleverly though. Trump played it hideously but still nearly won two terms
"White people have started to identify as white"
How stupid are you? America is a nation of slavery. Started! A nation founded on the distinction between person and non-person. Of Jim Crow of Segregation Now Segregation Forever.
Fuuuuuucking hell.
I bet you think you were really clever when you wrote that.
lol. Calm down.
Until now whites in America have basically seen both major parties as "being on their side". Recall that the Democrats were the party of Old Dixie, the go-to party of many bigoted southern Whites. Abraham Lincoln was a Republican.
My point is that white voting may now polarise, racially, behind one single populist Trumpist party, the new Republicans. If that happens it is a calamity for the USA.
42% of whites supported Biden. Not exactly a slam dunk is it?
No, not al all. But Biden was arguably the most centrist on the Democrat list.
I reckon Biden will be a one term prez, just because of age, and if the Dems are entirely captured, during his tenure, by ID politics (which looks highly possible) then I reckon whites would, in the face of a new BLMy Dem candidate, shift en masse to the Republicans.
TBH it already amazes me that in 2020 a large majority of American whites were prepared to vote for Trump, despite him being an obvious, dangerous moron. It is not a good sign.
Since 1928 only three elections have not had an incumbent President or Veep as the nominee on the ballot: 1952, 1968 and 2016.
....
And in 1968 although there was no incumbent P or VP, Nixon had already been VP for 8 years.
Indeed.
So since the Wall Street Crash only 1952 and 2016 had no current or former P or VP on a ticket. Some years both parties did (eg Reagan v Mondale or Trump v Biden).
The odds have to be overwhelming favourite for her to be the nominee. Xkcd applies, she might lose, but it would go against all precedent for her to do so.
Who was/were the current/former P/VP on the ticket in 2008?
Oops you're right. How did I miss that one?
Still any others? And worth noting that in 2008 like 2016 no incumbent chose to run - when an incumbent chooses to run you have to go back to 1952 or 1968 to see them get defeated, unless I've missed something else?
1976 and 1992 saw the incumbents lose.
Defeated in the primaries (to become nominee) is what we were talking about.
But, as @kyf_100 pointed out the other day, it you scream for four years that Trump is not legitimate because Russia rigged the election and he should not be President, don't be surprised when you get some of your own medicine.
In fact, here is somebody now pressing the "Russia stole the 2016 election" sh1t
Anyone on here who gives the slightest credence to the idea there is a realistic court route for Trump or even the glimmer of a chance for him "coz Supreme Court" knows sod all about the law and sod all about lawyers, and simply shouldn't be taken seriously ever again.
I admit I dont know about American constitutional law. I think its a fair question to ask - when the President, VP, AG and Senate leader are on board with a plan to overturn an election - what processes actually stop them "before" it reaches the SC.
They don't select the President, the Electoral College does. The Electoral College is appointed by the states, ALL of which have established legislation for that basis requiring this to be in line with the popular vote in the state (contrary to all this nonsense about legislatures refusing to certify or sending their own electors contrary to the popular vote in the state). They can't change those laws retrospectively now the election is done.
Even if there was a serious move by Republican legislatures of state governments in a state that had voted for Biden to do something else, the existing laws are easily enforceable through state and potentially federal courts. And it's madness to think there would be a serious move as those states have just voted for Biden for goodness sake, and you are never going to get the majority of elected Republicans to commit suicide for the sake of something utterly doomed in the courts.
And it would need to happen in multiple states! It's completely bonkers to think there's the tiniest chance of it happening, and all the people entertaining it for a moment are blustering halfwits who have no idea what they are talking about.
No, they are not. The SC have recognised the right of state legislatures to take back the right to appoint electors from voters. It was stated in 2000 in the whole Florida debacle.
That is the absolute opposite of correct and I suggest you read Bush v Gore again (or, in reality, for the first time). The point of the case is (in summary) that the constitution doesn't prescribe the means of selection of electors but, once the state legislature has set down a process that must be followed and not subverted after the event by the state courts or anyone else.
The point here is that ALL states HAVE set down processes for appointing electors and must follow them. Georgia, or anywhere else, can change that for 2024 and indeed can go from popular vote to appointment by the legislature, or by lottery, or just have the 16 fattest people in the state or whatever. But they cannot alter it for 2020 and that was the whole flipping point of the case!
But, as @kyf_100 pointed out the other day, it you scream for four years that Trump is not legitimate because Russia rigged the election and he should not be President, don't be surprised when you get some of your own medicine.
In fact, here is somebody now pressing the "Russia stole the 2016 election" sh1t
I don't think there is any realistic chance of some of these wild speculations happening. However, there is a chance that they get far more advanced than they should be allowed to because many GOP politicians are too scared of putting a stop to it out of fear of what it will do to their electoral base. They are all trying to keep quiet or humour Trump in the hope that it fizzles out naturally. And if it does get more and more advanced there suddenly become the risks of accidents happening due to unrest or violence on the streets etc.
The problem is that this approach means that Trump is getting all his 'advice' from the made triumvirate of Rudi Guiliani, Donald Trump jnr and Eric trump. Who will push Trump himself over the edge unless their is some pushback from somewhere. It could get pretty dangerous.
Time for Romney to call together whatever sane heads he can find in the GOP and make a collective statement for democracy.
Anyone on here who gives the slightest credence to the idea there is a realistic court route for Trump or even the glimmer of a chance for him "coz Supreme Court" knows sod all about the law and sod all about lawyers, and simply shouldn't be taken seriously ever again.
I admit I dont know about American constitutional law. I think its a fair question to ask - when the President, VP, AG and Senate leader are on board with a plan to overturn an election - what processes actually stop them "before" it reaches the SC.
They don't select the President, the Electoral College does. The Electoral College is appointed by the states, ALL of which have established legislation for that basis requiring this to be in line with the popular vote in the state (contrary to all this nonsense about legislatures refusing to certify or sending their own electors contrary to the popular vote in the state). They can't change those laws retrospectively now the election is done.
Even if there was a serious move by Republican legislatures of state governments in a state that had voted for Biden to do something else, the existing laws are easily enforceable through state and potentially federal courts. And it's madness to think there would be a serious move as those states have just voted for Biden for goodness sake, and you are never going to get the majority of elected Republicans to commit suicide for the sake of something utterly doomed in the courts.
And it would need to happen in multiple states! It's completely bonkers to think there's the tiniest chance of it happening, and all the people entertaining it for a moment are blustering halfwits who have no idea what they are talking about.
No, they are not. The SC have recognised the right of state legislatures to take back the right to appoint electors from voters. It was stated in 2000 in the whole Florida debacle.
That is the absolute opposite of correct and I suggest you read Bush v Gore again (or, in reality, for the first time). The point of the case is (in summary) that the constitution doesn't prescribe the means of selection of electors but, once the state legislature has set down a process that must be followed and not subverted after the event by the state courts or anyone else.
The point here is that ALL states HAVE set down processes for appointing electors and must follow them. Georgia, or anywhere else, can change that for 2024 and indeed can go from popular vote to appointment by the legislature, or by lottery, or just have the 16 fattest people in the state or whatever. But they cannot alter it for 2020 and that was the whole flipping point of the case!
No need for insults and, being blunt, you're wrong. Here is the wording of the 2000 ruling - read the bottom sentence.
"The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States unless and until the state legislature chooses a statewide election as the means to implement its power to appoint members of the electoral college. U. S. Const., Art. II, § 1. This is the source for the statement in McPherson v. Blacker, 146 U. S. 1, 35 (1892), that the state legislature’s power to select the manner for appointing electors is plenary; it may, if it so chooses, select the electors itself, which indeed was the manner used by state legislatures in several States for many years after the framing of our Constitution. Id., at 28–33. History has now favored the voter, and in each of the several States the citizens themselves vote for Presidential electors. When the state legislature vests the right to vote for President in its people, the right to vote as the legislature has prescribed is fundamental; and one source of its fundamental nature lies in the equal weight accorded to each vote and the equal dignity owed to each voter. The State, of course, after granting the franchise in the special context of Article II, can take back the power to appoint electors. See id., at 35 (“ ‘[T]here is no doubt of the right of the legislature to resume the power at any time, for it can neither be taken away nor abdicated’ ”) (quoting S. Rep. No. 395, 43d Cong., 1st Sess., 9 (1874)).
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
It's a Supreme Court of nine Justices.
They are all financially well off (and indeed, could have chosen to have earned many millions a year in private practice). Being a Supreme Court member is a triumph of ego over bank balance.
Every Justice (but particularly Roberts) will have their eyes firmly on the history books.
Do they want to go down as patsies for Trump and potentially incite civil war in the US by overturning a democratic election?
Or do they want to be seen as saviours of the Republic?
I am in a "told you so" mood tonight but I highlighted that the reason to rush ACB onto the SC was because of the pending decisions over vote counts.
I also said though that a fair number of Republicans do genuinely believe that some Governors have tried to rig the system in favour of Biden. Here is a Republican view on PA - I know many will disagree but this is where the thinking is of many in the GOP. Plus, there are a number of actions by players like Gov. Wolf which are not exactly highlights either:
That's a double-edged sword though. If they fail to get anywhere with a clearly conservative SC they look even bigger fools than they do now.
Unless they can come up with some compelling evidence pretty damn quick this is going nowhere. The case for arguing that the GOP has attempted voter suppression is far stronger than anything Trump has come up with from the other side.
This is doing the GOP no good at all with centrists, independents and moderate republicans. Long may it continue!
I don't think there is any realistic chance of some of these wild speculations happening. However, there is a chance that they get far more advanced than they should be allowed to because many GOP politicians are too scared of putting a stop to it out of fear of what it will do to their electoral base. They are all trying to keep quiet or humour Trump in the hope that it fizzles out naturally. And if it does get more and more advanced there suddenly become the risks of accidents happening due to unrest or violence on the streets etc.
The problem is that this approach means that Trump is getting all his 'advice' from the made triumvirate of Rudi Guiliani, Donald Trump jnr and Eric trump. Who will push Trump himself over the edge unless their is some pushback from somewhere. It could get pretty dangerous.
Time for Romney to call together whatever sane heads he can find in the GOP and make a collective statement for democracy.
Ivanka is a very key person for Donald Trump. If she has it might well mean he will do that, soon. She also has an ear for the media probably better than all the rest of his clan, and currently employed yes-men.
But, as @kyf_100 pointed out the other day, it you scream for four years that Trump is not legitimate because Russia rigged the election and he should not be President, don't be surprised when you get some of your own medicine.
In fact, here is somebody now pressing the "Russia stole the 2016 election" sh1t
Regarding faithless electors, is it the case that if the Georgia follows its own rules (and providing the recount and any fraud checking leaves the Dems ahead) the State legislature will have to select a Democratic slate of 16 electors? That is 16 Dems put forward by the party.
Those electors are not going to be faithless, are they.
Yes its in play, if Kavanaugh, Barrett and Gorsuch are on board its the end of American democracy. 3 people from a successful coup.
It's a Supreme Court of nine Justices.
They are all financially well off (and indeed, could have chosen to have earned many millions a year in private practice). Being a Supreme Court member is a triumph of ego over bank balance.
Every Justice (but particularly Roberts) will have their eyes firmly on the history books.
Do they want to go down as patsies for Trump and potentially incite civil war in the US by overturning a democratic election?
Or do they want to be seen as saviours of the Republic?
I am in a "told you so" mood tonight but I highlighted that the reason to rush ACB onto the SC was because of the pending decisions over vote counts.
I also said though that a fair number of Republicans do genuinely believe that some Governors have tried to rig the system in favour of Biden. Here is a Republican view on PA - I know many will disagree but this is where the thinking is of many in the GOP. Plus, there are a number of actions by players like Gov. Wolf which are not exactly highlights either:
That's a double-edged sword though. If they fail to get anywhere with a clearly conservative SC they look even bigger fools than they do now.
Unless they can come up with some compelling evidence pretty damn quick this is going nowhere. The case for arguing that the GOP has attempted voter suppression is far stronger than anything Trump has come up with. .
They should not be doing this. But what was suggesting where their head is at.
Comments
It results in civil war and the potential break up of the United States.
A very strange lady giving a speech in which she advocated....
- Leaving NATO
- Leaving the EEC
- Joining the Warsaw Pact
- Joining Comecon
The way she mumbled through it, looked up at the last to shout "Komrades!" and left the stage....
Why are you giving this moron this oxygen?
How stupid are you? America is a nation of slavery. Started! A nation founded on the distinction between person and non-person. Of Jim Crow of Segregation Now Segregation Forever.
Fuuuuuucking hell.
I bet you think you were really clever when you wrote that.
https://lockdownsceptics.org/
Moo!
It's a terrible state of affairs. Will it lead to the collapse of American Democracy? Being blunt, I'm not sure. What happens if Georgia says "you know what, we found out 10,000 votes were misallocated to the Ds and now are going to the GOP" like what happened in Michigan. Where's your proof that they did? I'm not sure we would see a mass rising outside the cities off the back of this.
It is an absolute sh1tshow and, if the election is stolen, it will be a catastrophe. I didn't support the whole Russia 2016 thing and I don't support Trump stealing an election. I just think, given the margins involved, more than a few will close their eyes.
The Constitution of the United States of America, Article I, Section 10: "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."
But it's not very likely. These voting systems have been used for a decade; is there any evidence of any historic widespread misallocation?
And there's also the other issue (in Georgia as well as elsewhere): the Republicans down ticket did rather well, there as just a surprising amount of vote splitting at the top of the ticket.
Even if there was a serious move by Republican legislatures of state governments in a state that had voted for Biden to do something else, the existing laws are easily enforceable through state and potentially federal courts. And it's madness to think there would be a serious move as those states have just voted for Biden for goodness sake, and you are never going to get the majority of elected Republicans to commit suicide for the sake of something utterly doomed in the courts.
And it would need to happen in multiple states! It's completely bonkers to think there's the tiniest chance of it happening, and all the people entertaining it for a moment are blustering halfwits who have no idea what they are talking about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Raffensperger
1) be in charge
2) rub Dems faces in it.
Until now whites in America have basically seen both major parties as "being on their side". Recall that the Democrats were the party of Old Dixie, the go-to party of many bigoted southern Whites. Abraham Lincoln was a Republican.
My point is that white voting may now polarise, racially, behind one single populist Trumpist party, the new Republicans. If that happens it is a calamity for the USA.
Today's NYTimes editorial
Let's hope this ages well.
It's right, laws in all states determine that voters have the power to select electors.
However, the SC has also been very clear that state legislatures have a right to take it back under Article II and the SC have stated this more than once. In fact, the SC said this in 2000 when “may, if it so chooses, select the electors itself,” and it retains authority to “take back the power to appoint electors,” even if it formerly let the popular vote make the decision. It also reaffirmed the point this year.
Again, ridiculous Trumpist GOP != Republican voters.
Still any others? And worth noting that in 2008 like 2016 no incumbent chose to run - when an incumbent chooses to run you have to go back to 1952 or 1968 to see them get defeated, unless I've missed something else?
The problem is that this approach means that Trump is getting all his 'advice' from the made triumvirate of Rudi Guiliani, Donald Trump jnr and Eric trump. Who will push Trump himself over the edge unless their is some pushback from somewhere. It could get pretty dangerous.
That would teach Keir a lesson.
https://twitter.com/AshleyRParker/status/1325917303591071745
2018 Georgia election was corrupt says top Democrat, 2020 Georgia election corrupt say Republicans. Clearly something fundamentally wrong in Georgia elections which justifies reselecting the EC delegates, or perhaps not sending any with aim of stopping either candidate reaching 270.
The rest of us clearly weren’t ready for that 3am call...
He simply needs to be the person the public sees as being the reasonable adult in the room, and to have regular coffee mornings with Collins, Murkowski and Romney, plus perhaps one or two others who see a sudden opportunity to wield disproportionate power.
There are some Democrats who think, because Biden isn't likely to control the Senate, he might as well write off the first two years at least and get into the trenches with them. They're wrong.
I reckon Biden will be a one term prez, just because of age, and if the Dems are entirely captured, during his tenure, by ID politics (which looks highly possible) then I reckon whites would, in the face of a new BLMy Dem candidate, shift en masse to the Republicans.
TBH it already amazes me that in 2020 a large majority of American whites were prepared to vote for Trump, despite him being an obvious, dangerous moron. It is not a good sign.
As it is I'll make somewhere between 100-200 quid coup dependent.
1976 and 1992 they won the primaries.
https://twitter.com/ProjectLincoln/status/1325491509068705795
In fact, here is somebody now pressing the "Russia stole the 2016 election" sh1t
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/11/08/democratic_whip_james_clyburn_will_republican_party_allow_putin_to_dictate_the_future_of_this_country.html
The point here is that ALL states HAVE set down processes for appointing electors and must follow them. Georgia, or anywhere else, can change that for 2024 and indeed can go from popular vote to appointment by the legislature, or by lottery, or just have the 16 fattest people in the state or whatever. But they cannot alter it for 2020 and that was the whole flipping point of the case!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rada_of_the_Belarusian_People's_Republic
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/last.htm
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8929535/Ivanka-urging-Trump-concede-Biden-eyes-White-House-run.html
"The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right
to vote for electors for the President of the United States
unless and until the state legislature chooses a statewide
election as the means to implement its power to appoint
members of the electoral college. U. S. Const., Art. II, § 1.
This is the source for the statement in McPherson v.
Blacker, 146 U. S. 1, 35 (1892), that the state legislature’s
power to select the manner for appointing electors is plenary; it may, if it so chooses, select the electors itself, which
indeed was the manner used by state legislatures in several
States for many years after the framing of our Constitution.
Id., at 28–33. History has now favored the voter, and in
each of the several States the citizens themselves vote for
Presidential electors. When the state legislature vests the
right to vote for President in its people, the right to vote
as the legislature has prescribed is fundamental; and one
source of its fundamental nature lies in the equal weight
accorded to each vote and the equal dignity owed to each
voter. The State, of course, after granting the franchise in
the special context of Article II, can take back the power
to appoint electors. See id., at 35 (“ ‘[T]here is no doubt of
the right of the legislature to resume the power at any time,
for it can neither be taken away nor abdicated’ ”) (quoting
S. Rep. No. 395, 43d Cong., 1st Sess., 9 (1874)).
Unless they can come up with some compelling evidence pretty damn quick this is going nowhere. The case for arguing that the GOP has attempted voter suppression is far stronger than anything Trump has come up with from the other side.
This is doing the GOP no good at all with centrists, independents and moderate republicans. Long may it continue!
Those electors are not going to be faithless, are they.