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If there had been an equal number of men and women voting then Trump would have won a second term –

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  • Two pieces of really good news in a week. Any hope that we'll get the hat-trick, and Boris will finally accept reality on the EU trade deal?

    The Euro Parliament deadline to get the deal ratified in time is November 15th, isn't it? I don't know how hard that deadline is, but it's realer than some of the others we've had.

    Now, there's no reason at all for stars to align like this. But maybe early November 2020 is our Winter Solstice. There will still be winter to get through (Trumpism is going nowhere, even if Trump goes from the White House; the bills for 2020 will take a long time to settle, Euro-realism will take ages to work out) but maybe things do combine to make a story.

    Stories are powerful things.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    I presume this one doesn't get the ban hammer from twitter?

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1325778096151203843?s=20

    Genuinely quite surprised he didn’t follow that up with an accusation re timing, or a suggestion that Pfizer were putting up cardboard in windows in Michigan, or the like...
    Rudy Giuliani will be raising that later at a press conference in a municipal rubbish dump.
  • A Norn Irish Unionist says something racist, colour me shocked.

    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/1325766477841043461
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Chris said:

    The other snag with the Pfizer vaccine is that it needs to be stored at extremely low temperatures, so the logistics will be quite challenging even in countries with good infrastructure.

    But I think the encouraging thing is that the efficacy is right at the upper end of expectations. The earlier trials showed broadly similar results from most of the frontrunner vaccine candidates, so this is promising for all of them, including the Oxford vaccine.

    Someone mentioned the other day that the UK government has purchased a very large number of medical freezers....
    Not because of Brexit AT ALL. No sireeee!
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Stockmarket going a bit bananas.

    Interesting, because I'd assumed that the overpriced stocks was due to this news being baked in for the last few months.
    Added impetus: with a Biden Presidency, the easing of lockdowns with an effective vaccine becomes less of a political issue.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042

    Pfizer believes it will be able to supply 50 million doses by the end of this year and around 1.3 billion by the end of 2021.

    Unless Oxford and others also have a working vaccine, life isn't going to return to normal in 2021.

    Cant others manufacture under license to boost the numbers? I recall @rcs1000 saying that the Pfizer vaccine was the easiest to manufacture and distribute.
    Apparently it needs to be stored at -70C, which may be an issue with distribution in the developing world. Not sure about manufacturing under license, but I agree it seems sensible on the face of it.

    https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-pfizer-and-biontech-reporting-interim-results-from-phase-3-covid-19-vaccine-trial/?cli_action=1604925884.314
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,103
    edited November 2020
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Vaccine!

    That's it. Great news. The crisis is over - apocalypse averted. Many will still fall sick and die but the big picture is transformed. Lockdown Lite in place, on and off, for another few months, then a gradual return to life as we knew it BC.

    Trump gone. Covid going. What a time to be alive. It's a new dawn, it's a new day, it's a new life.

    And I'm having a banana.

    Hold your horses....minky mutant covid might well not be covered by this vaccine. If the Danes have been too slow, it might well be out there and spreading.
    And there's recounts etc on Trump too. But no, not worried, I'm feeling extremely positive about things all of a sudden. The inevitable close alignment Brexit deal coming soon too.
    I am hoping my contacts in the US tech industry are in a bit of a better mood when they come online later today....last week, there weren't half some grumpy sods when they thought Trump might be in with a chance of re-election and COVID explosions around the world.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,671
    edited November 2020
    Great news on the vaccine, told you the Oxford one would let us all down.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Mfing vaccine.......

    Covid-19 vaccine candidate is 90% effective, says manufacturer
    Interim analysis of vaccine by Pfizer/BioNTech far exceeds expectations of most experts

    Peer reviewed or ignore.
    Don’t be childish

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    Chris said:

    Rudy Giuliani will be raising that later at a press conference in a municipal rubbish dump.

    https://twitter.com/janskudlarek/status/1325489880391102468
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Pfizer believes it will be able to supply 50 million doses by the end of this year and around 1.3 billion by the end of 2021.

    Unless Oxford and others also have a working vaccine, life isn't going to return to normal in 2021.

    Cant others manufacture under license to boost the numbers? I recall @rcs1000 saying that the Pfizer vaccine was the easiest to manufacture and distribute.
    Not the easiest to distribute, as it has to be stored at -70deg.
    And it would be possible to license it, but that in itself will take time, as the licensed production facilities will have be be validated. I don't know enough about the technology to say how quick that might be.
    It might be quicker to wait for the other PIII trials to report results.
  • Now all we have to worry about is how f##ked the world economy is due to 18 months of shut down.....and just how all that money required to support it will be paid back.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Scott_xP said:
    Only if somebody is bringing biscuits.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    Mortimer said:

    Chris said:

    The other snag with the Pfizer vaccine is that it needs to be stored at extremely low temperatures, so the logistics will be quite challenging even in countries with good infrastructure.

    But I think the encouraging thing is that the efficacy is right at the upper end of expectations. The earlier trials showed broadly similar results from most of the frontrunner vaccine candidates, so this is promising for all of them, including the Oxford vaccine.

    Someone mentioned the other day that the UK government has purchased a very large number of medical freezers....
    Not because of Brexit AT ALL. No sireeee!
    Well, if they have contracted to buy 30 million doses of a vaccine that needs to be stored at -70c, buying the freezers to put the doses in does seem like joined up thinking.....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Alistair said:



    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    However you cut it, stuff will be more expensive.

    If smaller, nimble, agile really was better (it's not), then TVR would still be selling cars and Sainsbury's would be out of business
    Hey! I was the dog's bollocks in my Chimaera.
    I can hear it rusting over the Internet.
    TVR - one of those British white elephants, like the Sinclair Spectrum.
    The Spectrum was one of the most successful home computers of all time and pivotal for the massive UK software industry that we now have.
    And, if I may, the TVR was about the only option if you were short of a ferrari and wanted some oomph. Plus they looked pretty.

    I had prior to that been a TR4A IRS guy which is all fine and dandy and I hit 100mph in it often on the A303 but the TVR was something else.

    That said, friend of a friend bought one (TVR) and killed himself by wrapping it round a tree on the way back from the dealer's.
    With some proper financing and vision, TVR could have been very successful in the long run.
    No they couldn't because their brand was dog shit and their products were worse.
    They had a market and a following.

    With decent investment and management, they could have improved their product. But they went down the road of putting fresh lipstick on the pig....
    Well, yes, if they were a completely different type of company then something different might have happened. I think I may have just earned myself an autodidactic MBA.

    TVR were very badly suited to the emergence of finance leasing as the dominant way of acquiring cars. You couldn't feasibly lease a TVR as the resale values were garbage because the cars fell apart and struggled to complete journeys under their own power. Lotus only survived similar adversity by switching to Honda/Toyota powertrains to fix the residual value problem.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    A Norn Irish Unionist says something racist, colour me shocked.

    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/1325766477841043461

    It's like being back in the 1970s. Do you think he watches re-runs of Love Thy Neighbour all day?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Great news on the vaccine, told you the Oxford one would let us all done.

    I gather Cambridge is preparing one that will be effective against all coronaviruses, presumably including the ones that cause the common cold.

    But I've no objection to having the Oxford one in the meantime.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It would be helpful for international comparison purposes if the British Tories could switch their colour to red and Labour to blue.

    Surely Tories to red and the LibDems to Blue. Labour and the Democrats aren't a valid comparison when you look at their policies.
    Yes, the Democrats don’t really have a sister party here right now. Clearly Biden, Harris and all the Obama Dems likely to be in his admin don’t identify with Boris and Cummings. Equally though, Labour’s vision would definitely be seen as ‘radical leftist’ by Dems in the US, with the exception of those such as Bernie and AOC.
    Strip out the issue of Brexit/the EU and Biden is very close to Boris on most international issues. So too though is Starmer actually.
    Yeah, apparently Biden doesn’t see it like though re Boris:

    https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1325036405400236032?s=21
    Sounds like an excuse to me - world leaders work with people and countries they may find outright despicable and who have committed actual violent crimes, nevermind one who years ago said something racist. I don't doubt there may be genuine feeling against Boris, but it would only lead to significant effect if they also thought it was in american interests, which they would act towards regardless of if Boris had in fact worshipped Obama. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest Biden and co are unprofessional and pretty bad at their jobs, and I don't see the evidence of that. But Boris doesn't seem well placed for any favours, nor to strike up a casual bonhomie at least.
    Yes, but it would probably be a fair guess that Biden hates Trump, and if he sees Johnson as a British Trump this is plenty enough reason to humiliate him. I think we could be about to see an all time low in UK-US relations until Bozo leaves office.
    A cooling may occur, but that's about it I think. I think the first time they meet Boris would be able to impress upon Biden that he is not a British Trump. People will cry two face at that, but as is even accepted by many of us who dislike Boris, he is more complex a character than Trump and while I do not think they would ever be friendly, so long as the Irish situation gets a resolution I find it hard to believe Biden, a man praised for willing to work with others, would seriously hold a grudge against the British PM to the point of compromising relations between the countries, because he insulted his boss and friend years ago.
    Kamala Harris insulted Joe Biden to his face and became his running mate.

    Biden and Boris will work together for the same reason as every PM and President has in the modern era. Respect goes to the office not the individual.
    Respect for individuals and offices is earned, or thrown away. Boris Johnson is very good at the latter.
    No he's not, you've gone off the deep end in your dislike of him but Boris has successfully been able to charm and work with every foreign leader he's dealt with so far, including the Irish Taoiseach.

    I see no reason why Biden will be the exception to the rule.
    Ancestral dislike of the British empire might come in to it.
    No. No it won't.

    Only in the imaginations of fevered Remainers who are willing along Boris to fail.
    And in the minds of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

    It's just about the worst thing you can say about anybody, "Trump's failure to secure re-election was a great blow to him."
  • Now all we have to worry about is how f##ked the world economy is due to 18 months of shut down.....and just how all that money required to support it will be paid back.

    QE.

    Any other questions?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    kinabalu said:

    Vaccine!

    That's it. Great news. The crisis is over - apocalypse averted. Many will still fall sick and die but the big picture is transformed. Lockdown Lite in place, on and off, for another few months, then a gradual return to life as we knew it BC.

    Trump gone. Covid going. What a time to be alive. It's a new dawn, it's a new day, it's a new life.

    And I'm having a banana.

    Hold your horses....minky mutant covid might well not be covered by this vaccine. If the Danes have been too slow, it might well be out there and spreading.
    Reports suggest it hasn't been seen in humans since September.
  • MrEd said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just think if the Pfizer news had come out this time last week. Might have been Trump’s November surprise if it had gone differently.

    I wonder if Pfizer sat on the analysis a bit...
    Vaccination program far more likely to be effective with Biden in charge so it is a material consideration in my book.
    To be fair to Pfizer, if they have sat on it, I think they would have got absolutely mullered if they had released the data the same time last week.

    Trump's reaction is interesting. Given the timing, it's not hard to imagine him going off on one that it was deliberately held back to help Biden and fuelling further conspiracy theories about the election. He hasn't.
    Well, rationally it wouldn't have matter as so many of Biden's voters had voted days and days before the actual date. But when did Trump do rational?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    I see we are back to rehashing Brexit arguments ffs.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Nigelb said:

    Pfizer believes it will be able to supply 50 million doses by the end of this year and around 1.3 billion by the end of 2021.

    Unless Oxford and others also have a working vaccine, life isn't going to return to normal in 2021.

    Cant others manufacture under license to boost the numbers? I recall @rcs1000 saying that the Pfizer vaccine was the easiest to manufacture and distribute.
    Not the easiest to distribute, as it has to be stored at -70deg.
    And it would be possible to license it, but that in itself will take time, as the licensed production facilities will have be be validated. I don't know enough about the technology to say how quick that might be.
    It might be quicker to wait for the other PIII trials to report results.
    I think the Oxford one is the easy one to distribute. I believe it only needs to be stored in a fridge.
  • MrEd said:

    A Norn Irish Unionist says something racist, colour me shocked.

    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/1325766477841043461

    It's like being back in the 1970s. Do you think he watches re-runs of Love Thy Neighbour all day?
    At first glance reading I thought this was some weird conspiracy theory about Modi becoming POTUS.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Charles said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Mfing vaccine.......

    Covid-19 vaccine candidate is 90% effective, says manufacturer
    Interim analysis of vaccine by Pfizer/BioNTech far exceeds expectations of most experts

    Peer reviewed or ignore.
    Don’t be childish

    The mystique attached to peer review by those who have never peer reviewed anything or had anything peer reviewed, is touching.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pfizer believes it will be able to supply 50 million doses by the end of this year and around 1.3 billion by the end of 2021.

    Unless Oxford and others also have a working vaccine, life isn't going to return to normal in 2021.

    Cant others manufacture under license to boost the numbers? I recall @rcs1000 saying that the Pfizer vaccine was the easiest to manufacture and distribute.
    Not the easiest to distribute, as it has to be stored at -70deg.
    And it would be possible to license it, but that in itself will take time, as the licensed production facilities will have be be validated. I don't know enough about the technology to say how quick that might be.
    It might be quicker to wait for the other PIII trials to report results.
    I think the Oxford one is the easy one to distribute. I believe it only needs to be stored in a fridge.
    My bad.
  • RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pfizer believes it will be able to supply 50 million doses by the end of this year and around 1.3 billion by the end of 2021.

    Unless Oxford and others also have a working vaccine, life isn't going to return to normal in 2021.

    Cant others manufacture under license to boost the numbers? I recall @rcs1000 saying that the Pfizer vaccine was the easiest to manufacture and distribute.
    Not the easiest to distribute, as it has to be stored at -70deg.
    And it would be possible to license it, but that in itself will take time, as the licensed production facilities will have be be validated. I don't know enough about the technology to say how quick that might be.
    It might be quicker to wait for the other PIII trials to report results.
    I think the Oxford one is the easy one to distribute. I believe it only needs to be stored in a fridge.
    Is that cos it doesn't work ;-)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pfizer believes it will be able to supply 50 million doses by the end of this year and around 1.3 billion by the end of 2021.

    Unless Oxford and others also have a working vaccine, life isn't going to return to normal in 2021.

    Cant others manufacture under license to boost the numbers? I recall @rcs1000 saying that the Pfizer vaccine was the easiest to manufacture and distribute.
    Not the easiest to distribute, as it has to be stored at -70deg.
    And it would be possible to license it, but that in itself will take time, as the licensed production facilities will have be be validated. I don't know enough about the technology to say how quick that might be.
    It might be quicker to wait for the other PIII trials to report results.
    I think the Oxford one is the easy one to distribute. I believe it only needs to be stored in a fridge.
    My bad.
    Just don't let it happen again.

    ;)
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    It would be helpful for international comparison purposes if the British Tories could switch their colour to red and Labour to blue.

    Until fairly recently the Tory colour was red in some areas. In Pembrokeshire and Cardiganshire , that was certainly true before 1979.
  • RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Vaccine!

    That's it. Great news. The crisis is over - apocalypse averted. Many will still fall sick and die but the big picture is transformed. Lockdown Lite in place, on and off, for another few months, then a gradual return to life as we knew it BC.

    Trump gone. Covid going. What a time to be alive. It's a new dawn, it's a new day, it's a new life.

    And I'm having a banana.

    Hold your horses....minky mutant covid might well not be covered by this vaccine. If the Danes have been too slow, it might well be out there and spreading.
    Reports suggest it hasn't been seen in humans since September.
    I posted a thread from a biotech person last night saying the minky thing is not a concern.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It would be helpful for international comparison purposes if the British Tories could switch their colour to red and Labour to blue.

    Surely Tories to red and the LibDems to Blue. Labour and the Democrats aren't a valid comparison when you look at their policies.
    Yes, the Democrats don’t really have a sister party here right now. Clearly Biden, Harris and all the Obama Dems likely to be in his admin don’t identify with Boris and Cummings. Equally though, Labour’s vision would definitely be seen as ‘radical leftist’ by Dems in the US, with the exception of those such as Bernie and AOC.
    Strip out the issue of Brexit/the EU and Biden is very close to Boris on most international issues. So too though is Starmer actually.
    Yeah, apparently Biden doesn’t see it like though re Boris:

    https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1325036405400236032?s=21
    Sounds like an excuse to me - world leaders work with people and countries they may find outright despicable and who have committed actual violent crimes, nevermind one who years ago said something racist. I don't doubt there may be genuine feeling against Boris, but it would only lead to significant effect if they also thought it was in american interests, which they would act towards regardless of if Boris had in fact worshipped Obama. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest Biden and co are unprofessional and pretty bad at their jobs, and I don't see the evidence of that. But Boris doesn't seem well placed for any favours, nor to strike up a casual bonhomie at least.
    Yes, but it would probably be a fair guess that Biden hates Trump, and if he sees Johnson as a British Trump this is plenty enough reason to humiliate him. I think we could be about to see an all time low in UK-US relations until Bozo leaves office.
    A cooling may occur, but that's about it I think. I think the first time they meet Boris would be able to impress upon Biden that he is not a British Trump. People will cry two face at that, but as is even accepted by many of us who dislike Boris, he is more complex a character than Trump and while I do not think they would ever be friendly, so long as the Irish situation gets a resolution I find it hard to believe Biden, a man praised for willing to work with others, would seriously hold a grudge against the British PM to the point of compromising relations between the countries, because he insulted his boss and friend years ago.
    Kamala Harris insulted Joe Biden to his face and became his running mate.

    Biden and Boris will work together for the same reason as every PM and President has in the modern era. Respect goes to the office not the individual.
    Respect for individuals and offices is earned, or thrown away. Boris Johnson is very good at the latter.
    No he's not, you've gone off the deep end in your dislike of him but Boris has successfully been able to charm and work with every foreign leader he's dealt with so far, including the Irish Taoiseach.

    I see no reason why Biden will be the exception to the rule.
    Ancestral dislike of the British empire might come in to it.
    Do you think he's that small minded and petty? I don't, and certainly hope not, though you seem to....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    Encouraging news on the vaccine which should offer protection for 90% of those vaccinated, though the vast majority of available doses will not be fully available until the end of 2021, the UK has put in an order for 40 million doses

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54873105
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042

    I see we are back to rehashing Brexit arguments ffs.

    One day the PB.com comments will move on from Brexit. But I wouldn't bet on it being this decade.

    It isn't that I think people shouldn't have strong views on it. I have strong views on it and I'm not changing them as time passes. But I can argue about Brexit anywhere at any time, I will admit I wish PB.com was a little more betting focused in the comments and there is basically no betting implication to relitigating Brexit.
  • Regardless of the where the vaccine comes from I suspect it's not over yet, the big problem will be getting people to accept it.

    People attending yesterday's anti lockdown protest in Manchester, the likes of A.C. Grayling, Nigel Farage, James Dellingpole, Trumpers, The QAnon twats, Rachel from Swindon et al, and enough plebs will refuse to take the vaccine because of 5G/The Jews/Because of Boris/Because of Biden's Dems want to create a white genocide/something their mate posted on Facebook.

    I'm happy to put people who refuse to take the vaccine for non medical reasons on Pitcairn Island and make Rockall.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Just think if the Pfizer news had come out this time last week. Might have been Trump’s November surprise if it had gone differently.

    I wonder if Pfizer sat on the analysis a bit...
    Vaccination program far more likely to be effective with Biden in charge so it is a material consideration in my book.
    To be fair to Pfizer, if they have sat on it, I think they would have got absolutely mullered if they had released the data the same time last week.

    Trump's reaction is interesting. Given the timing, it's not hard to imagine him going off on one that it was deliberately held back to help Biden and fuelling further conspiracy theories about the election. He hasn't.
    Well, rationally it wouldn't have matter as so many of Biden's voters had voted days and days before the actual date. But when did Trump do rational?
    It would still have mattered. Not all of Biden's voters did vote in-mail and many independents may have left their decision to the last day.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    HYUFD said:

    Encouraging news on the vaccine which should offer protection for 90% of those vaccinated, though the vast majority of available doses will not be fully available until the end of 2021, the UK has put in an order for 40 million doses

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54873105

    Anyone know how many doses of seasonal flu vaccine we tend to use in the UK each year? Presumably we'll start off with COVID by vaccinating similar groups like the elderly, certain pre-existing conditions, and healthcare workers, so it might be a useful guide.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    I presume this one doesn't get the ban hammer from twitter?

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1325778096151203843?s=20

    That is probably his best tweet ever!
  • Regardless of the where the vaccine comes from I suspect it's not over yet, the big problem will be getting people to accept it.

    People attending yesterday's anti lockdown protest in Manchester, the likes of A.C. Grayling, Nigel Farage, James Dellingpole, Trumpers, The QAnon twats, Rachel from Swindon et al, and enough plebs will refuse to take the vaccine because of 5G/The Jews/Because of Boris/Because of Biden's Dems want to create a white genocide/something their mate posted on Facebook.

    I'm happy to put people who refuse to take the vaccine for non medical reasons on Pitcairn Island and make Rockall.

    Is Rachel from Swindon an anti-vaxxer....is that because it will be organized by a Tory government?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805

    Regardless of the where the vaccine comes from I suspect it's not over yet, the big problem will be getting people to accept it.

    People attending yesterday's anti lockdown protest in Manchester, the likes of A.C. Grayling, Nigel Farage, James Dellingpole, Trumpers, The QAnon twats, Rachel from Swindon et al, and enough plebs will refuse to take the vaccine because of 5G/The Jews/Because of Boris/Because of Biden's Dems want to create a white genocide/something their mate posted on Facebook.

    I'm happy to put people who refuse to take the vaccine for non medical reasons on Pitcairn Island and make Rockall.

    What have the residents of Pitcairn done to you?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Alistair said:



    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    However you cut it, stuff will be more expensive.

    If smaller, nimble, agile really was better (it's not), then TVR would still be selling cars and Sainsbury's would be out of business
    Hey! I was the dog's bollocks in my Chimaera.
    I can hear it rusting over the Internet.
    TVR - one of those British white elephants, like the Sinclair Spectrum.
    The Spectrum was one of the most successful home computers of all time and pivotal for the massive UK software industry that we now have.
    And, if I may, the TVR was about the only option if you were short of a ferrari and wanted some oomph. Plus they looked pretty.

    I had prior to that been a TR4A IRS guy which is all fine and dandy and I hit 100mph in it often on the A303 but the TVR was something else.

    That said, friend of a friend bought one (TVR) and killed himself by wrapping it round a tree on the way back from the dealer's.
    With some proper financing and vision, TVR could have been very successful in the long run.
    No they couldn't because their brand was dog shit and their products were worse.
    They had a market and a following.

    With decent investment and management, they could have improved their product. But they went down the road of putting fresh lipstick on the pig....
    Well, yes, if they were a completely different type of company then something different might have happened. I think I may have just earned myself an autodidactic MBA.

    TVR were very badly suited to the emergence of finance leasing as the dominant way of acquiring cars. You couldn't feasibly lease a TVR as the resale values were garbage because the cars fell apart and struggled to complete journeys under their own power. Lotus only survived similar adversity by switching to Honda/Toyota powertrains to fix the residual value problem.
    I think we are actually agreeing - the problem was the UK concept of flog a quirky horse until it is dead dead dead. Then act surprised that people don't want a dead, rotten horse.

    As opposed to "I have a minimum viable product that sells. Hmmm. Make it better, then more people will buy it".

    Lotus tried to actually improve the product to change with times - people wanted something other than an unreliable death trap with some funky performance in some areas.
  • Mr. Eagles, is Grayling the very, very pro-EU chap?

    If so, seems slightly unexpected for him and Farage to be in agreement on, er, anything.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It would be helpful for international comparison purposes if the British Tories could switch their colour to red and Labour to blue.

    Surely Tories to red and the LibDems to Blue. Labour and the Democrats aren't a valid comparison when you look at their policies.
    Yes, the Democrats don’t really have a sister party here right now. Clearly Biden, Harris and all the Obama Dems likely to be in his admin don’t identify with Boris and Cummings. Equally though, Labour’s vision would definitely be seen as ‘radical leftist’ by Dems in the US, with the exception of those such as Bernie and AOC.
    Strip out the issue of Brexit/the EU and Biden is very close to Boris on most international issues. So too though is Starmer actually.
    Yeah, apparently Biden doesn’t see it like though re Boris:

    https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1325036405400236032?s=21
    Sounds like an excuse to me - world leaders work with people and countries they may find outright despicable and who have committed actual violent crimes, nevermind one who years ago said something racist. I don't doubt there may be genuine feeling against Boris, but it would only lead to significant effect if they also thought it was in american interests, which they would act towards regardless of if Boris had in fact worshipped Obama. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest Biden and co are unprofessional and pretty bad at their jobs, and I don't see the evidence of that. But Boris doesn't seem well placed for any favours, nor to strike up a casual bonhomie at least.
    Yes, but it would probably be a fair guess that Biden hates Trump, and if he sees Johnson as a British Trump this is plenty enough reason to humiliate him. I think we could be about to see an all time low in UK-US relations until Bozo leaves office.
    A cooling may occur, but that's about it I think. I think the first time they meet Boris would be able to impress upon Biden that he is not a British Trump. People will cry two face at that, but as is even accepted by many of us who dislike Boris, he is more complex a character than Trump and while I do not think they would ever be friendly, so long as the Irish situation gets a resolution I find it hard to believe Biden, a man praised for willing to work with others, would seriously hold a grudge against the British PM to the point of compromising relations between the countries, because he insulted his boss and friend years ago.
    Kamala Harris insulted Joe Biden to his face and became his running mate.

    Biden and Boris will work together for the same reason as every PM and President has in the modern era. Respect goes to the office not the individual.
    Respect for individuals and offices is earned, or thrown away. Boris Johnson is very good at the latter.
    No he's not, you've gone off the deep end in your dislike of him but Boris has successfully been able to charm and work with every foreign leader he's dealt with so far, including the Irish Taoiseach.

    I see no reason why Biden will be the exception to the rule.
    Ancestral dislike of the British empire might come in to it.
    No. No it won't.

    Only in the imaginations of fevered Remainers who are willing along Boris to fail.
    And in the minds of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

    It's just about the worst thing you can say about anybody, "Trump's failure to secure re-election was a great blow to him."
    Yawn.

    Biden isn't a petty grudge holder like Trump. I have more respect for him than you do it seems. He is a professional and competent deal maker who is comfortable dealing with political opponents even within his own country, he will be professional on the global stage, which is why I've been saying all along a deal is far more realistic under Biden than Trump.

    Because Biden actually does want to reach deals, Trump doesn't.
  • MrEd said:

    Great news on the vaccine, told you the Oxford one would let us all done.

    Cambridge didn't even bother getting started.
    Prepping for the next Coronavirus mutation. Covid-19 may have been a warning, like. a pre shock before a big earthquake.

    The scary thing is this fecker mutates.
  • Regardless of the where the vaccine comes from I suspect it's not over yet, the big problem will be getting people to accept it.

    People attending yesterday's anti lockdown protest in Manchester, the likes of A.C. Grayling, Nigel Farage, James Dellingpole, Trumpers, The QAnon twats, Rachel from Swindon et al, and enough plebs will refuse to take the vaccine because of 5G/The Jews/Because of Boris/Because of Biden's Dems want to create a white genocide/something their mate posted on Facebook.

    I'm happy to put people who refuse to take the vaccine for non medical reasons on Pitcairn Island and make Rockall.

    Is Rachel from Swindon an anti-vaxxer....is that because it will be organized by a Tory government?
    Yup.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Far too much is being made of how difficult the Johnson , Biden relationship will be .

    They agree on climate change , NATO, Iran . The disagreements over Brexit would be resolved if a trade deal is done . You don’t have to be best friends to work together .

    As an aside in terms of the Supreme Court it will not intervene and simply hand states to Trump. There seems to be some bizarre thinking that it will throw out thousands of votes which is ludicrous .
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    Quincel said:

    HYUFD said:

    Encouraging news on the vaccine which should offer protection for 90% of those vaccinated, though the vast majority of available doses will not be fully available until the end of 2021, the UK has put in an order for 40 million doses

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54873105

    Anyone know how many doses of seasonal flu vaccine we tend to use in the UK each year? Presumably we'll start off with COVID by vaccinating similar groups like the elderly, certain pre-existing conditions, and healthcare workers, so it might be a useful guide.
    About 1/3rd of the population IIRC.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    The Oxford vaccine news probably hasn't arrived yet due to a lack of 'events' amongst it's participants. Which could mean it's going well.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    One more relevant point. If I understand correctly, that 90% figure is based on the reduction in symptomatic cases, not overall infections (which may be asymptomatic) or cases with severe symptoms.

    But a figure as high as 90% can only be good news.
  • Mr. Eagles, is Grayling the very, very pro-EU chap?

    If so, seems slightly unexpected for him and Farage to be in agreement on, er, anything.

    He is, Brexit has driven some people on both Leave and Remain quite loopy.

    Think of idiots like Dellingpole who refused to wear a mask and made a big thing of going to the shops without wearing a mask, his kind of supporters and people like Peter Hitchens will say it is an assault on their freedom and they will refuse the vaccine.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    On topic, it's not a straightforward women vs men thing. Specifically what got Biden over the top was women with a degree. I will dig out the article but I think it was 60%+ of women with a degree voted for Biden whereas a majority of those without one voted for Trump.

    PS We have had some debate re state legislatures. One of the things that have noticed on several pro-Republican sites is that Biden should support calls for an audit of the electoral process if he wants unity and use the state legislatures should use their electoral votes leverage as mandate. Note the comments in here ascribed to Pennsylvania's state legislators:

    https://spectator.org/stop-the-steal-start-the-audit/


  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It would be helpful for international comparison purposes if the British Tories could switch their colour to red and Labour to blue.

    Surely Tories to red and the LibDems to Blue. Labour and the Democrats aren't a valid comparison when you look at their policies.
    Yes, the Democrats don’t really have a sister party here right now. Clearly Biden, Harris and all the Obama Dems likely to be in his admin don’t identify with Boris and Cummings. Equally though, Labour’s vision would definitely be seen as ‘radical leftist’ by Dems in the US, with the exception of those such as Bernie and AOC.
    Strip out the issue of Brexit/the EU and Biden is very close to Boris on most international issues. So too though is Starmer actually.
    Yeah, apparently Biden doesn’t see it like though re Boris:

    https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1325036405400236032?s=21
    Sounds like an excuse to me - world leaders work with people and countries they may find outright despicable and who have committed actual violent crimes, nevermind one who years ago said something racist. I don't doubt there may be genuine feeling against Boris, but it would only lead to significant effect if they also thought it was in american interests, which they would act towards regardless of if Boris had in fact worshipped Obama. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest Biden and co are unprofessional and pretty bad at their jobs, and I don't see the evidence of that. But Boris doesn't seem well placed for any favours, nor to strike up a casual bonhomie at least.
    Yes, but it would probably be a fair guess that Biden hates Trump, and if he sees Johnson as a British Trump this is plenty enough reason to humiliate him. I think we could be about to see an all time low in UK-US relations until Bozo leaves office.
    A cooling may occur, but that's about it I think. I think the first time they meet Boris would be able to impress upon Biden that he is not a British Trump. People will cry two face at that, but as is even accepted by many of us who dislike Boris, he is more complex a character than Trump and while I do not think they would ever be friendly, so long as the Irish situation gets a resolution I find it hard to believe Biden, a man praised for willing to work with others, would seriously hold a grudge against the British PM to the point of compromising relations between the countries, because he insulted his boss and friend years ago.
    Kamala Harris insulted Joe Biden to his face and became his running mate.

    Biden and Boris will work together for the same reason as every PM and President has in the modern era. Respect goes to the office not the individual.
    Respect for individuals and offices is earned, or thrown away. Boris Johnson is very good at the latter.
    No he's not, you've gone off the deep end in your dislike of him but Boris has successfully been able to charm and work with every foreign leader he's dealt with so far, including the Irish Taoiseach.

    I see no reason why Biden will be the exception to the rule.
    Ancestral dislike of the British empire might come in to it.
    Do you think he's that small minded and petty? I don't, and certainly hope not, though you seem to....
    When I said "Ancestral dislike of the British empire" I should have said ""ancestral dislike of the British empire"". I have no relevant hopes here, just telling it like it very plainly is. You don't not require a retraction of the "shapeshifting creep" tweet unless you approve of it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    MrEd said:

    Great news on the vaccine, told you the Oxford one would let us all done.

    Cambridge didn't even bother getting started.
    No-one expects anything from Fenland Poly. Except indifferent art experts and Russian spies.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    90% efficacy is plenty to achieve herd immunity.

    We don't need perfection.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,103
    edited November 2020
    nico679 said:

    Far too much is being made of how difficult the Johnson , Biden relationship will be .

    They agree on climate change , NATO, Iran . The disagreements over Brexit would be resolved if a trade deal is done . You don’t have to be best friends to work together .

    As an aside in terms of the Supreme Court it will not intervene and simply hand states to Trump. There seems to be some bizarre thinking that it will throw out thousands of votes which is ludicrous .

    There is another upside....imagine being part of the British civil service over the past 4 years, trying to deal with the ever changing cast of crazy appointments Trump made. Trying to get anything done must have been nearly impossible, because even if your opposite number in the US wasn't mad as a box of frogs, their boss / bosses boss, either was or got the sack because they said something against the emperor.

    I presume a more orderly business like set of appointments will be made. Then, even though Biden and Boris might not be best of buddies, I presume lots of the work that goes on in the background should return to more normal.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It would be helpful for international comparison purposes if the British Tories could switch their colour to red and Labour to blue.

    Surely Tories to red and the LibDems to Blue. Labour and the Democrats aren't a valid comparison when you look at their policies.
    Yes, the Democrats don’t really have a sister party here right now. Clearly Biden, Harris and all the Obama Dems likely to be in his admin don’t identify with Boris and Cummings. Equally though, Labour’s vision would definitely be seen as ‘radical leftist’ by Dems in the US, with the exception of those such as Bernie and AOC.
    Strip out the issue of Brexit/the EU and Biden is very close to Boris on most international issues. So too though is Starmer actually.
    Yeah, apparently Biden doesn’t see it like though re Boris:

    https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1325036405400236032?s=21
    Sounds like an excuse to me - world leaders work with people and countries they may find outright despicable and who have committed actual violent crimes, nevermind one who years ago said something racist. I don't doubt there may be genuine feeling against Boris, but it would only lead to significant effect if they also thought it was in american interests, which they would act towards regardless of if Boris had in fact worshipped Obama. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest Biden and co are unprofessional and pretty bad at their jobs, and I don't see the evidence of that. But Boris doesn't seem well placed for any favours, nor to strike up a casual bonhomie at least.
    Yes, but it would probably be a fair guess that Biden hates Trump, and if he sees Johnson as a British Trump this is plenty enough reason to humiliate him. I think we could be about to see an all time low in UK-US relations until Bozo leaves office.
    A cooling may occur, but that's about it I think. I think the first time they meet Boris would be able to impress upon Biden that he is not a British Trump. People will cry two face at that, but as is even accepted by many of us who dislike Boris, he is more complex a character than Trump and while I do not think they would ever be friendly, so long as the Irish situation gets a resolution I find it hard to believe Biden, a man praised for willing to work with others, would seriously hold a grudge against the British PM to the point of compromising relations between the countries, because he insulted his boss and friend years ago.
    Kamala Harris insulted Joe Biden to his face and became his running mate.

    Biden and Boris will work together for the same reason as every PM and President has in the modern era. Respect goes to the office not the individual.
    Respect for individuals and offices is earned, or thrown away. Boris Johnson is very good at the latter.
    No he's not, you've gone off the deep end in your dislike of him but Boris has successfully been able to charm and work with every foreign leader he's dealt with so far, including the Irish Taoiseach.

    I see no reason why Biden will be the exception to the rule.
    Ancestral dislike of the British empire might come in to it.
    No. No it won't.

    Only in the imaginations of fevered Remainers who are willing along Boris to fail.
    And in the minds of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

    It's just about the worst thing you can say about anybody, "Trump's failure to secure re-election was a great blow to him."
    Yawn.

    Biden isn't a petty grudge holder like Trump. I have more respect for him than you do it seems. He is a professional and competent deal maker who is comfortable dealing with political opponents even within his own country, he will be professional on the global stage, which is why I've been saying all along a deal is far more realistic under Biden than Trump.

    Because Biden actually does want to reach deals, Trump doesn't.
    We'll see.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    Great news on the vaccine, told you the Oxford one would let us all done.

    Cambridge didn't even bother getting started.
    Prepping for the next Coronavirus mutation. Covid-19 may have been a warning, like. a pre shock before a big earthquake.

    The scary thing is this fecker mutates.
    Chr1st, that wouldn't be good. At the moment, though, let's take the victories.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    edited November 2020

    Regardless of the where the vaccine comes from I suspect it's not over yet, the big problem will be getting people to accept it.

    People attending yesterday's anti lockdown protest in Manchester, the likes of A.C. Grayling, Nigel Farage, James Dellingpole, Trumpers, The QAnon twats, Rachel from Swindon et al, and enough plebs will refuse to take the vaccine because of 5G/The Jews/Because of Boris/Because of Biden's Dems want to create a white genocide/something their mate posted on Facebook.

    I'm happy to put people who refuse to take the vaccine for non medical reasons on Pitcairn Island and make Rockall.

    Of course, another bright spot is that if it's 90% effective rather than 60%, they can get the same effect on overall spread from vaccinating only 2/3 as many people.
  • MrEd said:

    Great news on the vaccine, told you the Oxford one would let us all done.

    Cambridge didn't even bother getting started.
    No-one expects anything from Fenland Poly. Except indifferent art experts and Russian spies.
    Number of Nobel Laureates from Fen Poly = 110

    Number of Nobel Laureates from the Dump = 54.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,998
    edited November 2020

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    However you cut it, stuff will be more expensive.

    If smaller, nimble, agile really was better (it's not), then TVR would still be selling cars and Sainsbury's would be out of business
    Hey! I was the dog's bollocks in my Chimaera.
    I can hear it rusting over the Internet.
    TVR - one of those British white elephants, like the Sinclair Spectrum.
    Wasn't TVR Russian owned when it went to shit? A few metaphors there for the taking.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    edited November 2020
    nico679 said:

    Far too much is being made of how difficult the Johnson , Biden relationship will be .

    They agree on climate change , NATO, Iran . The disagreements over Brexit would be resolved if a trade deal is done . You don’t have to be best friends to work together .

    As an aside in terms of the Supreme Court it will not intervene and simply hand states to Trump. There seems to be some bizarre thinking that it will throw out thousands of votes which is ludicrous .

    Gaining a SC majority has been the Holy Grail for the Right for decades. A Wishfulfilling Jewel. Meanwhile they kept losing the popular vote.
    This attitude is the logical result of magical thinking.
  • "Sadly, as we have again seen recently, the influence of economic considerations in the key decisions taken with regard to controlling the virus is next to zero.

    Coincidentally, the standards of statistical analysis and forecasting technique employed by those senior medical professionals supporting a complete lockdown would not pass muster on the most basic economics course."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/11/08/forget-negative-rates-time-start-listening-economists/
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    However you cut it, stuff will be more expensive.

    If smaller, nimble, agile really was better (it's not), then TVR would still be selling cars and Sainsbury's would be out of business
    Hey! I was the dog's bollocks in my Chimaera.
    I can hear it rusting over the Internet.
    TVR - one of those British white elephants, like the Sinclair Spectrum.
    Wasn't TVR Russian owned when it went to shit? A few metaphors there for the taking.
    That was their final phase. No-one else wanted them at the end...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366

    MrEd said:

    Great news on the vaccine, told you the Oxford one would let us all done.

    Cambridge didn't even bother getting started.
    No-one expects anything from Fenland Poly. Except indifferent art experts and Russian spies.
    Number of Nobel Laureates from Fen Poly = 110

    Number of Nobel Laureates from the Dump = 54.
    How many of those were MurderPeace Prizes?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    MrEd said:

    Great news on the vaccine, told you the Oxford one would let us all done.

    Cambridge didn't even bother getting started.
    Prepping for the next Coronavirus mutation. Covid-19 may have been a warning, like. a pre shock before a big earthquake.

    The scary thing is this fecker mutates.
    Informed opinion seems to be that other vaccine types, including the Oxford vaccine, will be less likely to be undermined by mutations than mRNA vaccines like the Pfizer one. And perhaps inactivated virus vaccines such as the ones the Chinese are concentrating on will be most robust of all.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It would be helpful for international comparison purposes if the British Tories could switch their colour to red and Labour to blue.

    Surely Tories to red and the LibDems to Blue. Labour and the Democrats aren't a valid comparison when you look at their policies.
    Yes, the Democrats don’t really have a sister party here right now. Clearly Biden, Harris and all the Obama Dems likely to be in his admin don’t identify with Boris and Cummings. Equally though, Labour’s vision would definitely be seen as ‘radical leftist’ by Dems in the US, with the exception of those such as Bernie and AOC.
    Strip out the issue of Brexit/the EU and Biden is very close to Boris on most international issues. So too though is Starmer actually.
    Yeah, apparently Biden doesn’t see it like though re Boris:

    https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1325036405400236032?s=21
    Sounds like an excuse to me - world leaders work with people and countries they may find outright despicable and who have committed actual violent crimes, nevermind one who years ago said something racist. I don't doubt there may be genuine feeling against Boris, but it would only lead to significant effect if they also thought it was in american interests, which they would act towards regardless of if Boris had in fact worshipped Obama. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest Biden and co are unprofessional and pretty bad at their jobs, and I don't see the evidence of that. But Boris doesn't seem well placed for any favours, nor to strike up a casual bonhomie at least.
    Yes, but it would probably be a fair guess that Biden hates Trump, and if he sees Johnson as a British Trump this is plenty enough reason to humiliate him. I think we could be about to see an all time low in UK-US relations until Bozo leaves office.
    A cooling may occur, but that's about it I think. I think the first time they meet Boris would be able to impress upon Biden that he is not a British Trump. People will cry two face at that, but as is even accepted by many of us who dislike Boris, he is more complex a character than Trump and while I do not think they would ever be friendly, so long as the Irish situation gets a resolution I find it hard to believe Biden, a man praised for willing to work with others, would seriously hold a grudge against the British PM to the point of compromising relations between the countries, because he insulted his boss and friend years ago.
    Kamala Harris insulted Joe Biden to his face and became his running mate.

    Biden and Boris will work together for the same reason as every PM and President has in the modern era. Respect goes to the office not the individual.
    Respect for individuals and offices is earned, or thrown away. Boris Johnson is very good at the latter.
    No he's not, you've gone off the deep end in your dislike of him but Boris has successfully been able to charm and work with every foreign leader he's dealt with so far, including the Irish Taoiseach.

    I see no reason why Biden will be the exception to the rule.
    Ancestral dislike of the British empire might come in to it.
    No. No it won't.

    Only in the imaginations of fevered Remainers who are willing along Boris to fail.
    And in the minds of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

    It's just about the worst thing you can say about anybody, "Trump's failure to secure re-election was a great blow to him."
    Yawn.

    Biden isn't a petty grudge holder like Trump. I have more respect for him than you do it seems. He is a professional and competent deal maker who is comfortable dealing with political opponents even within his own country, he will be professional on the global stage, which is why I've been saying all along a deal is far more realistic under Biden than Trump.

    Because Biden actually does want to reach deals, Trump doesn't.
    We'll see.
    We will indeed. I expect (Covid permitting) we will see Biden and Boris working together professionally at some form of leaders conference within the next 12 months, especially since the UK is hosting COP etc

    I am surprised you have such a low opinion of Biden you think he will be petty instead of professional.
  • Mr. Eagles, I loathe wearing one, but the people who irritate me the most are chinmaskers.

    I disagree with Farage et al. but people who wear masks around their chins are like the ineffable dopey sods who take a bag to clean up after their dog and then hang it from tree branches. It's inexplicable how people can have sufficient forward thinking only to bugger it up at the last moment. Might as well carry condoms and then use them as mittens.

    Mr. Rentool, it'd hugely cut infection risks and be a great step forward. Take time, I imagine, to move to real world application, though.
  • dixiedean said:

    nico679 said:

    Far too much is being made of how difficult the Johnson , Biden relationship will be .

    They agree on climate change , NATO, Iran . The disagreements over Brexit would be resolved if a trade deal is done . You don’t have to be best friends to work together .

    As an aside in terms of the Supreme Court it will not intervene and simply hand states to Trump. There seems to be some bizarre thinking that it will throw out thousands of votes which is ludicrous .

    Gaining a SC majority has been the Holy Grail for the Right for decades. A Wishfulfulling Jewel. Meanwhile they kept losing the popular vote.
    This attitude is the logical result of magical thinking.
    The "Right" has had a SC majority for as long as I can remember. When did they last not have one?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366

    90% efficacy is plenty to achieve herd immunity.

    We don't need perfection.

    90% is well above what we need for it to be very, very useful.

    if you vaccinated the whole population, an R of 1.3 becomes an R of 0.13
  • Chris said:

    MrEd said:

    Great news on the vaccine, told you the Oxford one would let us all done.

    Cambridge didn't even bother getting started.
    Prepping for the next Coronavirus mutation. Covid-19 may have been a warning, like. a pre shock before a big earthquake.

    The scary thing is this fecker mutates.
    Informed opinion seems to be that other vaccine types, including the Oxford vaccine, will be less likely to be undermined by mutations than mRNA vaccines like the Pfizer one. And perhaps inactivated virus vaccines such as the ones the Chinese are concentrating on will be most robust of all.
    I hope so, but with this plague it has been wise to expect the worst case scenario then double it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1325578272302903296

    Good news for Biden out of Arizona.

    Arizona + Nevada gets Biden to 270 outwith Pennsylvania and Georgia. Given republicans did well downballot in Az (Ex McSally) the legislature there is less likely to indulge any shenanigans in my opinion.
  • MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Great news on the vaccine, told you the Oxford one would let us all done.

    Cambridge didn't even bother getting started.
    Prepping for the next Coronavirus mutation. Covid-19 may have been a warning, like. a pre shock before a big earthquake.

    The scary thing is this fecker mutates.
    Chr1st, that wouldn't be good. At the moment, though, let's take the victories.
    The virologists do not really worry about Covid. They worry about the Nipah virus mutating and becoming transmissable. Fatality rate... 70%-100%. At the moment, humans catch it from bats or pigs infected by bats.

    Luckily, it is so lethal that the infected become ill very, very quickly which cuts down the spread.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    edited November 2020

    Regardless of the where the vaccine comes from I suspect it's not over yet, the big problem will be getting people to accept it.

    People attending yesterday's anti lockdown protest in Manchester, the likes of A.C. Grayling, Nigel Farage, James Dellingpole, Trumpers, The QAnon twats, Rachel from Swindon et al, and enough plebs will refuse to take the vaccine because of 5G/The Jews/Because of Boris/Because of Biden's Dems want to create a white genocide/something their mate posted on Facebook.

    I'm happy to put people who refuse to take the vaccine for non medical reasons on Pitcairn Island and make Rockall.

    Is Rachel from Swindon an anti-vaxxer....is that because it will be organized by a Tory government?
    Yup.
    Is that the Oxford Brookes graduate who got upset at the idea that a British vaccine would save lives. Or is that another, different idiot?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805
    felix said:

    I presume this one doesn't get the ban hammer from twitter?

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1325778096151203843?s=20

    That is probably his best tweet ever!
    Yes it is weird. Why isn't he spitting feathers. Even I would say 'I damn well told you so'
  • Nigelb said:
    Nothing but a bunch of muck rakers........

    :D:D
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,129

    Mr. Eagles, is Grayling the very, very pro-EU chap?

    If so, seems slightly unexpected for him and Farage to be in agreement on, er, anything.

    Not at all. People who see irrational conspiracies everywhere will naturally align to one another since they are, by definition, irrational, even if they are right on some things.
  • World at One:

    Can we say with confidence that we can return to some sort of normality by next spring?

    Sir John Bell: Yes. Yes. Yes.
  • I presume this one doesn't get the ban hammer from twitter?

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1325778096151203843?s=20

    He thinks he's convinced the stock market that he won bigly.
  • Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1325578272302903296

    Good news for Biden out of Arizona.

    Arizona + Nevada gets Biden to 270 outwith Pennsylvania and Georgia. Given republicans did well downballot in Az (Ex McSally) the legislature there is less likely to indulge any shenanigans in my opinion.

    Does anyone know why the Dem vote rigging was so good in Arizona, Wisconsin, Nevada, Georgia, and Pennsylvania but so shit in Florida?
  • Charles said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Mfing vaccine.......

    Covid-19 vaccine candidate is 90% effective, says manufacturer
    Interim analysis of vaccine by Pfizer/BioNTech far exceeds expectations of most experts

    Peer reviewed or ignore.
    Don’t be childish

    I'm not being childish. I'm arguing against leaping to hope -- or worse, complacency -- before the scientific process is finished. I desperately want this to be true. But I don't trust purported medical breakthroughs until they've gone through the the processes. Nor should you.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Now all we have to worry about is how f##ked the world economy is due to 18 months of shut down.....and just how all that money required to support it will be paid back.

    You are full of the joys of spring again today I see Francis.
  • I presume this one doesn't get the ban hammer from twitter?

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1325778096151203843?s=20

    Trump gone. Even better news :+1::+1::+1::+1:
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It would be helpful for international comparison purposes if the British Tories could switch their colour to red and Labour to blue.

    Surely Tories to red and the LibDems to Blue. Labour and the Democrats aren't a valid comparison when you look at their policies.
    Yes, the Democrats don’t really have a sister party here right now. Clearly Biden, Harris and all the Obama Dems likely to be in his admin don’t identify with Boris and Cummings. Equally though, Labour’s vision would definitely be seen as ‘radical leftist’ by Dems in the US, with the exception of those such as Bernie and AOC.
    Strip out the issue of Brexit/the EU and Biden is very close to Boris on most international issues. So too though is Starmer actually.
    Yeah, apparently Biden doesn’t see it like though re Boris:

    https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1325036405400236032?s=21
    Sounds like an excuse to me - world leaders work with people and countries they may find outright despicable and who have committed actual violent crimes, nevermind one who years ago said something racist. I don't doubt there may be genuine feeling against Boris, but it would only lead to significant effect if they also thought it was in american interests, which they would act towards regardless of if Boris had in fact worshipped Obama. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest Biden and co are unprofessional and pretty bad at their jobs, and I don't see the evidence of that. But Boris doesn't seem well placed for any favours, nor to strike up a casual bonhomie at least.
    Yes, but it would probably be a fair guess that Biden hates Trump, and if he sees Johnson as a British Trump this is plenty enough reason to humiliate him. I think we could be about to see an all time low in UK-US relations until Bozo leaves office.
    A cooling may occur, but that's about it I think. I think the first time they meet Boris would be able to impress upon Biden that he is not a British Trump. People will cry two face at that, but as is even accepted by many of us who dislike Boris, he is more complex a character than Trump and while I do not think they would ever be friendly, so long as the Irish situation gets a resolution I find it hard to believe Biden, a man praised for willing to work with others, would seriously hold a grudge against the British PM to the point of compromising relations between the countries, because he insulted his boss and friend years ago.
    Kamala Harris insulted Joe Biden to his face and became his running mate.

    Biden and Boris will work together for the same reason as every PM and President has in the modern era. Respect goes to the office not the individual.
    Respect for individuals and offices is earned, or thrown away. Boris Johnson is very good at the latter.
    No he's not, you've gone off the deep end in your dislike of him but Boris has successfully been able to charm and work with every foreign leader he's dealt with so far, including the Irish Taoiseach.

    I see no reason why Biden will be the exception to the rule.
    Ancestral dislike of the British empire might come in to it.
    No. No it won't.

    Only in the imaginations of fevered Remainers who are willing along Boris to fail.
    And in the minds of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

    It's just about the worst thing you can say about anybody, "Trump's failure to secure re-election was a great blow to him."
    Yawn.

    Biden isn't a petty grudge holder like Trump. I have more respect for him than you do it seems. He is a professional and competent deal maker who is comfortable dealing with political opponents even within his own country, he will be professional on the global stage, which is why I've been saying all along a deal is far more realistic under Biden than Trump.

    Because Biden actually does want to reach deals, Trump doesn't.
    We'll see.
    We will indeed. I expect (Covid permitting) we will see Biden and Boris working together professionally at some form of leaders conference within the next 12 months, especially since the UK is hosting COP etc

    I am surprised you have such a low opinion of Biden you think he will be petty instead of professional.
    I think this is exactly right.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    dixiedean said:

    nico679 said:

    Far too much is being made of how difficult the Johnson , Biden relationship will be .

    They agree on climate change , NATO, Iran . The disagreements over Brexit would be resolved if a trade deal is done . You don’t have to be best friends to work together .

    As an aside in terms of the Supreme Court it will not intervene and simply hand states to Trump. There seems to be some bizarre thinking that it will throw out thousands of votes which is ludicrous .

    Gaining a SC majority has been the Holy Grail for the Right for decades. A Wishfulfulling Jewel. Meanwhile they kept losing the popular vote.
    This attitude is the logical result of magical thinking.
    The "Right" has had a SC majority for as long as I can remember. When did they last not have one?
    It has never been "Right" enough. Hence their current mindset.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Chris said:

    One more relevant point. If I understand correctly, that 90% figure is based on the reduction in symptomatic cases, not overall infections (which may be asymptomatic) or cases with severe symptoms.

    But a figure as high as 90% can only be good news.

    And tested only on young people, I assume.
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 437

    MrEd said:

    Great news on the vaccine, told you the Oxford one would let us all done.

    Cambridge didn't even bother getting started.
    No-one expects anything from Fenland Poly. Except indifferent art experts and Russian spies.
    Number of Nobel Laureates from Fen Poly = 110

    Number of Nobel Laureates from the Dump = 54.
    Which puts the world's most distinguished university at roughly two Swedens and (grrr) just behind France, while Fenland Poly just beats Germany, with only the UK and US ahead.

    And of course, we beat Fenland Poly into dust on canonised saints, Prime Ministers, Viceroys of India and (over the past 20 years) Olympic Gold Medallists. I THINK we do on Oscars as well.

    It's educating the whole person that marks out the great from the nerdy labrats
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Charles said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Mfing vaccine.......

    Covid-19 vaccine candidate is 90% effective, says manufacturer
    Interim analysis of vaccine by Pfizer/BioNTech far exceeds expectations of most experts

    Peer reviewed or ignore.
    Don’t be childish

    I'm not being childish. I'm arguing against leaping to hope -- or worse, complacency -- before the scientific process is finished. I desperately want this to be true. But I don't trust purported medical breakthroughs until they've gone through the the processes. Nor should you.
    I don't trust it in the sense of rushing out and trying to get a shot.

    But given the repetitional risk on that press release, the company must have some really solid science behind that.

    Come to think of it, if they can't justify the 90% bit, the stock market regulators will come for them....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1325578272302903296

    Good news for Biden out of Arizona.

    Arizona + Nevada gets Biden to 270 outwith Pennsylvania and Georgia. Given republicans did well downballot in Az (Ex McSally) the legislature there is less likely to indulge any shenanigans in my opinion.

    Does anyone know why the Dem vote rigging was so good in Arizona, Wisconsin, Nevada, Georgia, and Pennsylvania but so shit in Florida?
    Trump's spanish language campaign was much better than in 2016

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-ZwOfaTMBc&ab_channel=DonaldJTrump

    Also got Biden painted as Castro's friend which is particularly relevant to South Florida.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,129
    Ocado presumably now no longer worth more than Tesco, which even assuming increased and prolonged increases was pretty ridiculous on the face of it.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Trump is going to lose his pooh over this.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Scott_xP said:
    Only if somebody is bringing biscuits.
    Custard Cream equities on the rise.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It would be helpful for international comparison purposes if the British Tories could switch their colour to red and Labour to blue.

    Surely Tories to red and the LibDems to Blue. Labour and the Democrats aren't a valid comparison when you look at their policies.
    Yes, the Democrats don’t really have a sister party here right now. Clearly Biden, Harris and all the Obama Dems likely to be in his admin don’t identify with Boris and Cummings. Equally though, Labour’s vision would definitely be seen as ‘radical leftist’ by Dems in the US, with the exception of those such as Bernie and AOC.
    Strip out the issue of Brexit/the EU and Biden is very close to Boris on most international issues. So too though is Starmer actually.
    Yeah, apparently Biden doesn’t see it like though re Boris:

    https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1325036405400236032?s=21
    Sounds like an excuse to me - world leaders work with people and countries they may find outright despicable and who have committed actual violent crimes, nevermind one who years ago said something racist. I don't doubt there may be genuine feeling against Boris, but it would only lead to significant effect if they also thought it was in american interests, which they would act towards regardless of if Boris had in fact worshipped Obama. To suggest otherwise would be to suggest Biden and co are unprofessional and pretty bad at their jobs, and I don't see the evidence of that. But Boris doesn't seem well placed for any favours, nor to strike up a casual bonhomie at least.
    Yes, but it would probably be a fair guess that Biden hates Trump, and if he sees Johnson as a British Trump this is plenty enough reason to humiliate him. I think we could be about to see an all time low in UK-US relations until Bozo leaves office.
    A cooling may occur, but that's about it I think. I think the first time they meet Boris would be able to impress upon Biden that he is not a British Trump. People will cry two face at that, but as is even accepted by many of us who dislike Boris, he is more complex a character than Trump and while I do not think they would ever be friendly, so long as the Irish situation gets a resolution I find it hard to believe Biden, a man praised for willing to work with others, would seriously hold a grudge against the British PM to the point of compromising relations between the countries, because he insulted his boss and friend years ago.
    Kamala Harris insulted Joe Biden to his face and became his running mate.

    Biden and Boris will work together for the same reason as every PM and President has in the modern era. Respect goes to the office not the individual.
    Respect for individuals and offices is earned, or thrown away. Boris Johnson is very good at the latter.
    No he's not, you've gone off the deep end in your dislike of him but Boris has successfully been able to charm and work with every foreign leader he's dealt with so far, including the Irish Taoiseach.

    I see no reason why Biden will be the exception to the rule.
    Ancestral dislike of the British empire might come in to it.
    No. No it won't.

    Only in the imaginations of fevered Remainers who are willing along Boris to fail.
    And in the minds of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

    It's just about the worst thing you can say about anybody, "Trump's failure to secure re-election was a great blow to him."
    Yawn.

    Biden isn't a petty grudge holder like Trump. I have more respect for him than you do it seems. He is a professional and competent deal maker who is comfortable dealing with political opponents even within his own country, he will be professional on the global stage, which is why I've been saying all along a deal is far more realistic under Biden than Trump.

    Because Biden actually does want to reach deals, Trump doesn't.
    We'll see.
    We will indeed. I expect (Covid permitting) we will see Biden and Boris working together professionally at some form of leaders conference within the next 12 months, especially since the UK is hosting COP etc

    I am surprised you have such a low opinion of Biden you think he will be petty instead of professional.
    Making your usual mistake of thinking that politics has no moral content. What made Johnson write that Obama article is also what makes him want to shit on the GFA. Biden's personal and professional feelings towards him are exactly aligned; your are looking for a dichotomy which ain't there.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366

    Mr. Eagles, I loathe wearing one, but the people who irritate me the most are chinmaskers.

    I disagree with Farage et al. but people who wear masks around their chins are like the ineffable dopey sods who take a bag to clean up after their dog and then hang it from tree branches. It's inexplicable how people can have sufficient forward thinking only to bugger it up at the last moment. Might as well carry condoms and then use them as mittens.

    Mr. Rentool, it'd hugely cut infection risks and be a great step forward. Take time, I imagine, to move to real world application, though.

    Most chin maskers I have seen, wear it like that when in the street, away from people. Then put it on properly when they go into shops.

    One thing I have noticed - a non-trivial percentage of sensible people who really can't deal with masks. Panic breathing etc.

    I actually showed someone how to do some.... breathing exercises, the other day, to help them through it. Stuff I picked up when learning to scuba dive - in the group a number of people couldn't deal with breathing through a device. The instructor did this routine with them, and cured them in a few minutes.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1325578272302903296

    Good news for Biden out of Arizona.

    Arizona + Nevada gets Biden to 270 outwith Pennsylvania and Georgia. Given republicans did well downballot in Az (Ex McSally) the legislature there is less likely to indulge any shenanigans in my opinion.

    Great call by Fox/AP – I hope those who attacked them for the call will now recant.
This discussion has been closed.