Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
Personally although I can see the advantages of that it would feel a bit too much like the EU trying to keep us in various control mechanisms after Brexit. I suspect it would generate resentment and more strife. So I think it would be better to say that there will be a clean break but then at the same time negotiate joint ventures and cross border cooperation as equal independent partners.
The problem is this relies upon having a Government in Westminster adult enough to see that once Scotland has chosen independence it is in everyone's interests to make it work as well as possible including making concessions and compromises on the English side. I fear we have neither the politicians (of any party) or the public who are intelligent enough to realise that that is in our best interests.
If Scotland ever chose independence we would of course treat them exactly as the EU treated us and rightly so, if you choose to leave a union you should not expect any concessions from the larger state you are leaving, if you wish to become a foreign power you will be treated as one
In the real world if Scotland ever chose to leave if you want to know how we'd treat them, look at how we treat the Republic of Ireland.
We are not the EU.
We ignore them and rip up the Withdrawal Agreement and remove the border in the Irish Sea Dublin wanted you mean?
Plus of course if Scotland left us to rejoin the EU it would be treated exactly the same as any other EU nation with no favours and if that means tariffs on Scottish exports to England after we have left the Single Market and Customs Union then so be it
Yes, miraculous, that when you haven't finished counting the votes, the amounts then change. I'd say he was just shit stirring, but I think he genuinely believes is.
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
No as Scots voted against independence in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
And Brexit doesn’t change that? the desire of majority of English and Welsh, those original Roman Britons, to brexit, can’t have the same powerful Brexit arguments to escape from vassalage, to take back sovereignty and control, turned back upon them in ScotRef2 now because of brexit?
No, Cameron had said he would hold an EUref even before the indyref in 2014, it was a once in a generation referendum and that will stand.
Plus the prospect of a hard border with England still keeps Scots behind the Union post Brexit
I’m sure you agree with Richard and myself, just don’t realise it. It hinges upon understanding what a nation actually is. 🙂
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
The UK is older as a nation than Germany, Italy, India, the USA, Canada and Australia, all of them manage to be effective unions of states and so can we, otherwise on your absurd argument they should all dissolve too
Its not a question of whether it is effective or not. There have been lots of dictatorships which have been quite effective but that is not an argument for having one today.
This is a question of national aspiration. If the Scots, who have been an independent country for much of their history, wish to return to that status then we should not be standing in the way of them making that choice. Anymore than it would have been right for the EU to prevent the UK from leaving. Yes it is entirely possible that, given that choice, the majority might choose the status quo. But to try and argue that nothing materially has changed since 2014 is thoroughly disingenuous.
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
No as Scots voted against independence in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
And Brexit doesn’t change that? the desire of majority of English and Welsh, those original Roman Britons, to brexit, can’t have the same powerful Brexit arguments to escape from vassalage, to take back sovereignty and control, turned back upon them in ScotRef2 now because of brexit?
No, Cameron had said he would hold an EUref even before the indyref in 2014, it was a once in a generation referendum and that will stand.
Plus the prospect of a hard border with England still keeps Scots behind the Union post Brexit
I’m sure you agree with Richard and myself, just don’t realise it. It hinges upon understanding what a nation actually is. 🙂
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
The UK is older as a nation than Germany, Italy, India, the USA, Canada and Australia, all of them manage to be effective union of states and so can we, otherwise on your absurd argument they should all dissolve too
What made Italy? Nationalism. What made India? Nationalism. What made Germany? Nationalism.
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
No as Scots voted against independence in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
And Brexit doesn’t change that? the desire of majority of English and Welsh, those original Roman Britons, to brexit, can’t have the same powerful Brexit arguments to escape from vassalage, to take back sovereignty and control, turned back upon them in ScotRef2 now because of brexit?
No, Cameron had said he would hold an EUref even before the indyref in 2014, it was a once in a generation referendum and that will stand.
Plus the prospect of a hard border with England still keeps Scots behind the Union post Brexit
I’m sure you agree with Richard and myself, just don’t realise it. It hinges upon understanding what a nation actually is. 🙂
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
The UK is older as a nation than Germany, Italy, India, the USA, Canada and Australia, all of them manage to be effective union of states and so can we, otherwise on your absurd argument they should all dissolve too
What made Italy? Nationalism. What made India? Nationalism. What made Germany? Nationalism.
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
No as Scots voted against independence in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
And Brexit doesn’t change that? the desire of majority of English and Welsh, those original Roman Britons, to brexit, can’t have the same powerful Brexit arguments to escape from vassalage, to take back sovereignty and control, turned back upon them in ScotRef2 now because of brexit?
No, Cameron had said he would hold an EUref even before the indyref in 2014, it was a once in a generation referendum and that will stand.
Plus the prospect of a hard border with England still keeps Scots behind the Union post Brexit
I’m sure you agree with Richard and myself, just don’t realise it. It hinges upon understanding what a nation actually is. 🙂
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
The UK is older as a nation than Germany, Italy, India, the USA, Canada and Australia, all of them manage to be effective union of states and so can we, otherwise on your absurd argument they should all dissolve too
What made Italy? Nationalism. What made India? Nationalism. What made Germany? Nationalism.
What made the UK? Pragmatism.
What shall unmake the UK? Nationalism.
Some would have argued that throwing off the chains of colonialism was both pragmatic and nationalistic for the USA. Sometimes pragmatism and nationalism oppose, sometimes they pull in the same direction. Not for me to say which in the case of Scotland, but most fair minded people see both attractions and detriments in independence.
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
No as Scots voted against independence in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
And Brexit doesn’t change that? the desire of majority of English and Welsh, those original Roman Britons, to brexit, can’t have the same powerful Brexit arguments to escape from vassalage, to take back sovereignty and control, turned back upon them in ScotRef2 now because of brexit?
No, Cameron had said he would hold an EUref even before the indyref in 2014, it was a once in a generation referendum and that will stand.
Plus the prospect of a hard border with England still keeps Scots behind the Union post Brexit
I’m sure you agree with Richard and myself, just don’t realise it. It hinges upon understanding what a nation actually is. 🙂
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
The UK is older as a nation than Germany, Italy, India, the USA, Canada and Australia, all of them manage to be effective unions of states and so can we, otherwise on your absurd argument they should all dissolve too
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
Personally although I can see the advantages of that it would feel a bit too much like the EU trying to keep us in various control mechanisms after Brexit. I suspect it would generate resentment and more strife. So I think it would be better to say that there will be a clean break but then at the same time negotiate joint ventures and cross border cooperation as equal independent partners.
The problem is this relies upon having a Government in Westminster adult enough to see that once Scotland has chosen independence it is in everyone's interests to make it work as well as possible including making concessions and compromises on the English side. I fear we have neither the politicians (of any party) or the public who are intelligent enough to realise that that is in our best interests.
If Scotland ever chose independence we would of course treat them exactly as the EU treated us and rightly so, if you choose to leave a union you should not expect any concessions from the larger state you are leaving, if you wish to become a foreign power you will be treated as one
No, that is how YOU would treat them. Which is a great shame and I pity you for it.
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
No as Scots voted against independence in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
And Brexit doesn’t change that? the desire of majority of English and Welsh, those original Roman Britons, to brexit, can’t have the same powerful Brexit arguments to escape from vassalage, to take back sovereignty and control, turned back upon them in ScotRef2 now because of brexit?
I'm against splitting up - the world is quite divided enough without further splits in countries that function reasonably well together. But I think that if the Scottish government really wants a new referendum then we shouldn't try to make it illegal (how?). A possible compromise would be to offer an earlier decisive referendum but with a higher threshold than 50%+1 - say 55% for something of that magnitude? (And yes, if we'd had that for Brexit it would have been a good idea.
Should have made it contingent that all 4 UK nations had to vote for Brexit to occur (although it would have caused other problems).
It would certainly have hastened the end of the Union far more effectively than Brexit has.
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
Personally although I can see the advantages of that it would feel a bit too much like the EU trying to keep us in various control mechanisms after Brexit. I suspect it would generate resentment and more strife. So I think it would be better to say that there will be a clean break but then at the same time negotiate joint ventures and cross border cooperation as equal independent partners.
The problem is this relies upon having a Government in Westminster adult enough to see that once Scotland has chosen independence it is in everyone's interests to make it work as well as possible including making concessions and compromises on the English side. I fear we have neither the politicians (of any party) or the public who are intelligent enough to realise that that is in our best interests.
If Scotland ever chose independence we would of course treat them exactly as the EU treated us and rightly so, if you choose to leave a union you should not expect any concessions from the larger state you are leaving, if you wish to become a foreign power you will be treated as one
No, that is how YOU would treat them. Which is a great shame and I pity you for it.
No it is called realpolitik and what most English voters would demand, no concessions to Sturgeon and the SNP at all
We just received 437 additional votes from Pennsylvania. Biden is currently up by 16,784 votes. 6m ago
The figures from different sources seem a bit inconsistent, but 538 says: "Pennsylvania just released 2,292 more votes from Philadelphia County and 1,043 more from Northampton County. Biden did very well in each of them (he got 82 percent of the Philadelphia votes and 71 percent of the Northampton votes), extending his statewide lead even further, as he’s done all day. When we woke up this morning, Trump was leading in Pennsylvania. Now, Biden has a 17,012-vote lead."
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
Personally although I can see the advantages of that it would feel a bit too much like the EU trying to keep us in various control mechanisms after Brexit. I suspect it would generate resentment and more strife. So I think it would be better to say that there will be a clean break but then at the same time negotiate joint ventures and cross border cooperation as equal independent partners.
The problem is this relies upon having a Government in Westminster adult enough to see that once Scotland has chosen independence it is in everyone's interests to make it work as well as possible including making concessions and compromises on the English side. I fear we have neither the politicians (of any party) or the public who are intelligent enough to realise that that is in our best interests.
If Scotland ever chose independence we would of course treat them exactly as the EU treated us and rightly so, if you choose to leave a union you should not expect any concessions from the larger state you are leaving, if you wish to become a foreign power you will be treated as one
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
No as Scots voted against independence in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
And Brexit doesn’t change that? the desire of majority of English and Welsh, those original Roman Britons, to brexit, can’t have the same powerful Brexit arguments to escape from vassalage, to take back sovereignty and control, turned back upon them in ScotRef2 now because of brexit?
No, Cameron had said he would hold an EUref even before the indyref in 2014, it was a once in a generation referendum and that will stand.
Plus the prospect of a hard border with England still keeps Scots behind the Union post Brexit
I’m sure you agree with Richard and myself, just don’t realise it. It hinges upon understanding what a nation actually is. 🙂
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
The UK is older as a nation than Germany, Italy, India, the USA, Canada and Australia, all of them manage to be effective unions of states and so can we, otherwise on your absurd argument they should all dissolve too
Italy isn't federal, but the others are.
Italy has regional governments so in effect now it is
Yes, miraculous, that when you haven't finished counting the votes, the amounts then change. I'd say he was just shit stirring, but I think he genuinely believes is.
Poor RCP has been in meltdown for the last week even before polling closed, and today their conservative lead article is openly calling for Republican state houses to nullify Democrat wins by appointing Republican electors!
RCP's final forecast of Biden 319 and Trump 219 could well however end up being almost spot on, they just wrongly called Florida for Biden and Georgia for Trump
So by "almost spot on" you mean "not particularly close" because flipping Georgia and Florida changes the winning margin from 100 to 74. You could say the states called were almost spot on but not the ECV forecast.
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
No as Scots voted against independence in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
And Brexit doesn’t change that? the desire of majority of English and Welsh, those original Roman Britons, to brexit, can’t have the same powerful Brexit arguments to escape from vassalage, to take back sovereignty and control, turned back upon them in ScotRef2 now because of brexit?
No, Cameron had said he would hold an EUref even before the indyref in 2014, it was a once in a generation referendum and that will stand.
Plus the prospect of a hard border with England still keeps Scots behind the Union post Brexit
I’m sure you agree with Richard and myself, just don’t realise it. It hinges upon understanding what a nation actually is. 🙂
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
The UK is older as a nation than Germany, Italy, India, the USA, Canada and Australia, all of them manage to be effective unions of states and so can we, otherwise on your absurd argument they should all dissolve too
Italy isn't federal, but the others are.
Italy has regional governments so in effect now it is
No, Italy is a unitary state, like France. Both have "regions", but these are NOT States.
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
Personally although I can see the advantages of that it would feel a bit too much like the EU trying to keep us in various control mechanisms after Brexit. I suspect it would generate resentment and more strife. So I think it would be better to say that there will be a clean break but then at the same time negotiate joint ventures and cross border cooperation as equal independent partners.
The problem is this relies upon having a Government in Westminster adult enough to see that once Scotland has chosen independence it is in everyone's interests to make it work as well as possible including making concessions and compromises on the English side. I fear we have neither the politicians (of any party) or the public who are intelligent enough to realise that that is in our best interests.
If Scotland ever chose independence we would of course treat them exactly as the EU treated us and rightly so, if you choose to leave a union you should not expect any concessions from the larger state you are leaving, if you wish to become a foreign power you will be treated as one
WTF?
I mean WTF?
Nationalism breeds nationalism ever and always, you and Richard Tyndall and Philip Thompson all voted Leave in a rather naive libertarian view I think that the EU would wave us off and wish us good luck as a free trading liberal utopia and want to stay the bestest of friends, in fact all that has happened is a form of EU nationalism has developed in backlash at the Brexit British nationalism and we have been treated accordingly in the Brexit talks.
Scottish independence would almost certainly equally be met by a surge in English nationalism and no mood for concessions to Edinburgh at all
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
No as Scots voted against independence in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
And Brexit doesn’t change that? the desire of majority of English and Welsh, those original Roman Britons, to brexit, can’t have the same powerful Brexit arguments to escape from vassalage, to take back sovereignty and control, turned back upon them in ScotRef2 now because of brexit?
No, Cameron had said he would hold an EUref even before the indyref in 2014, it was a once in a generation referendum and that will stand.
Plus the prospect of a hard border with England still keeps Scots behind the Union post Brexit
I’m sure you agree with Richard and myself, just don’t realise it. It hinges upon understanding what a nation actually is. 🙂
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
The UK is older as a nation than Germany, Italy, India, the USA, Canada and Australia, all of them manage to be effective union of states and so can we, otherwise on your absurd argument they should all dissolve too
What made Italy? Nationalism. What made India? Nationalism. What made Germany? Nationalism.
At time of the 1789 French Revolution only half of the French people spoke some French, the state made the French nation not a French nationalism. During the Italian unification the % of people speaking the Italian language was even lower. To the creation of Germany following the Austro Prussian war, all those people with different languages and culture who didn’t wish to be part of Germany, the Schleswig-Holstein question that clearly proves a nation did not exist before the German state.
Biden is up 20k in pa after carrying the latest batch from Pittsburgh 4-1. They have 29k votes to count now but that might be slow because they need to open the two envelopes, verify the ballots and scan.
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
Personally although I can see the advantages of that it would feel a bit too much like the EU trying to keep us in various control mechanisms after Brexit. I suspect it would generate resentment and more strife. So I think it would be better to say that there will be a clean break but then at the same time negotiate joint ventures and cross border cooperation as equal independent partners.
The problem is this relies upon having a Government in Westminster adult enough to see that once Scotland has chosen independence it is in everyone's interests to make it work as well as possible including making concessions and compromises on the English side. I fear we have neither the politicians (of any party) or the public who are intelligent enough to realise that that is in our best interests.
If Scotland ever chose independence we would of course treat them exactly as the EU treated us and rightly so, if you choose to leave a union you should not expect any concessions from the larger state you are leaving, if you wish to become a foreign power you will be treated as one
WTF?
I mean WTF?
Nationalism breeds nationalism ever and always, you and Richard Tyndall and Philip Thompson all voted Leave in a rather naive libertarian view I think that the EU would wave us off and wish us good luck as a free trading liberal utopia and want to stay the bestest of friends, in fact all that has happened is a form of EU nationalism has developed in backlash at the Brexit British nationalism and we have been treated accordingly in the Brexit talks.
Scottish independence would almost certainly equally be met by a surge in English nationalism and no mood for concessions to Edinburgh at all
Bollocks has it.
The EU are seeking their own interests in the Brexit talks but they do wish to remain friends. It isn't some mutual nationalist dickwaving contest.
In the mid 80s when I was about 10 I got really obsessively into the punk music of the late 70s. Watching BBC4s show about it tonight I can’t believe what a load of old shit it was. My poor parents
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
Personally although I can see the advantages of that it would feel a bit too much like the EU trying to keep us in various control mechanisms after Brexit. I suspect it would generate resentment and more strife. So I think it would be better to say that there will be a clean break but then at the same time negotiate joint ventures and cross border cooperation as equal independent partners.
The problem is this relies upon having a Government in Westminster adult enough to see that once Scotland has chosen independence it is in everyone's interests to make it work as well as possible including making concessions and compromises on the English side. I fear we have neither the politicians (of any party) or the public who are intelligent enough to realise that that is in our best interests.
If Scotland ever chose independence we would of course treat them exactly as the EU treated us and rightly so, if you choose to leave a union you should not expect any concessions from the larger state you are leaving, if you wish to become a foreign power you will be treated as one
No, that is how YOU would treat them. Which is a great shame and I pity you for it.
No it is called realpolitik and what most English voters would demand, no concessions to Sturgeon and the SNP at all
Given the trillions that we are in debt due to covid I wonder whether the massive debt that an independent Scotland would start off with when the debt is divvied up would make the Scots realise what they are signing up to.
An astonishing revelation from 538: "It could be a slow night"
Here's the rest of it: "— and we may not get the network projection we’ve been waiting for. Apart from the regular updates from Pennsylvania we’ve all come to know and love (including the Allegheny County absentees I posted about earlier), the big thing we’re expecting is a batch of 60,000-70,000 votes from Maricopa County, Arizona, at 9 p.m. Eastern. Trump’s path in Arizona is narrowing, so those results could be crucial."
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
No as Scots voted against independence in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
And Brexit doesn’t change that? the desire of majority of English and Welsh, those original Roman Britons, to brexit, can’t have the same powerful Brexit arguments to escape from vassalage, to take back sovereignty and control, turned back upon them in ScotRef2 now because of brexit?
No, Cameron had said he would hold an EUref even before the indyref in 2014, it was a once in a generation referendum and that will stand.
Plus the prospect of a hard border with England still keeps Scots behind the Union post Brexit
I’m sure you agree with Richard and myself, just don’t realise it. It hinges upon understanding what a nation actually is. 🙂
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
The UK is older as a nation than Germany, Italy, India, the USA, Canada and Australia, all of them manage to be effective union of states and so can we, otherwise on your absurd argument they should all dissolve too
What made Italy? Nationalism. What made India? Nationalism. What made Germany? Nationalism.
At time of the 1789 French Revolution only half of the French people spoke some French, the state made the French nation not a French nationalism. During the Italian unification the % of people speaking the Italian language was even lower. To the creation of Germany following the Austro Prussian war, all those people with different languages and culture who didn’t wish to be part of Germany, the Schleswig-Holstein question that clearly proves a nation did not exist before the German state.
Is British a Nationalism?
I don't think that's true re only half of French people speaking French. The Académie Française (formed 125 years earlier under Louix XIV) had already eliminatd most of the regional dialects.
Plus the GOP would fancy their chances against Harris far more than they did against Biden, so Democrats should be careful what they wish for, Biden has won them back the rustbelt but it is only on loan, a California left liberal like Harris could easily see them lose it again
Yes, miraculous, that when you haven't finished counting the votes, the amounts then change. I'd say he was just shit stirring, but I think he genuinely believes is.
I'm afraid the conspiracy theory is growing legs judging by MAGA social media.
Yes, miraculous, that when you haven't finished counting the votes, the amounts then change. I'd say he was just shit stirring, but I think he genuinely believes is.
I'm afraid the conspiracy theory is growing legs judging by MAGA social media.
If they move from a conspiracy of "liberals eat babies" to "liberals vote" then that's actually progress.
Plus the GOP would fancy their chances against Harris far more than they did against Biden, so Democrats should be careful what they wish for, Biden has won them back the rustbelt but it is only on loan, a California left liberal like Harris could easily see them lose it again
Agreed. I would like to see Biden be a Democratic Reagan and serve two terms. I think he could be a great president as long as he uses the energies and ideas of those around him.
I wish these gormless fcukers could get their stories straight.
'Alister Jack has undermined Boris Johnson‘s position on a second Scottish independence referendum by claiming that the SNP could win the right to hold one in 2021.
The Scottish Secretary said the SNP securing an outright majority at the next Scottish Parliament election would constitute a “democratic mandate” for indyref2.'
On Trump voters. "But a far better word for them would be ‘the unconquerables’. These are minds and hearts uncolonised by the new orthodoxies. Seventy million people in a peaceful state of revolt against the new establishment and its eccentric, authoritarian ideologies."
Brendan my friend. May I gently point out who has been in power for 4 years?
Poor RCP has been in meltdown for the last week even before polling closed, and today their conservative lead article is openly calling for Republican state houses to nullify Democrat wins by appointing Republican electors!
RCP's final forecast of Biden 319 and Trump 219 could well however end up being almost spot on, they just wrongly called Florida for Biden and Georgia for Trump
In the mid 80s when I was about 10 I got really obsessively into the punk music of the late 70s. Watching BBC4s show about it tonight I can’t believe what a load of old shit it was. My poor parents
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
No as Scots voted against independence in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
And Brexit doesn’t change that? the desire of majority of English and Welsh, those original Roman Britons, to brexit, can’t have the same powerful Brexit arguments to escape from vassalage, to take back sovereignty and control, turned back upon them in ScotRef2 now because of brexit?
No, Cameron had said he would hold an EUref even before the indyref in 2014, it was a once in a generation referendum and that will stand.
Plus the prospect of a hard border with England still keeps Scots behind the Union post Brexit
I’m sure you agree with Richard and myself, just don’t realise it. It hinges upon understanding what a nation actually is. 🙂
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
The UK is older as a nation than Germany, Italy, India, the USA, Canada and Australia, all of them manage to be effective union of states and so can we, otherwise on your absurd argument they should all dissolve too
What made Italy? Nationalism. What made India? Nationalism. What made Germany? Nationalism.
At time of the 1789 French Revolution only half of the French people spoke some French, the state made the French nation not a French nationalism. During the Italian unification the % of people speaking the Italian language was even lower. To the creation of Germany following the Austro Prussian war, all those people with different languages and culture who didn’t wish to be part of Germany, the Schleswig-Holstein question that clearly proves a nation did not exist before the German state.
Is British a Nationalism?
It's pretty difficult to tell how widespread the sentiment was in those times, and using language as a proxy for that sentiment brings even more problems to the table, probably more than it solves. However, it's not really my point. The idea that the coalescing of the Sicilies, and the Papal States, and Lombardy, etc into a single "Italy" was a nationalist idea. It is one that was successfully implemented, for good or for ill. Nationalism made Italy. Did all "Italians" speak the same languages? No, not at all. Was there a popular sentiment for a nation state? Difficult to say, but let's say no for sake of argument. Nevertheless, it happened. The beliefs of the common people, the great majority who didn't have a political say and didn't participate one way or another aren't what counts here -- they should have done, but these were not democracies. The French revolution was (to begin with, the 1789 edition) a liberal revolution against absolutist monarchy. The change for the French state from absolutist to liberal state with successive constitutions reflects the change in the organisation of political power. That's all we're talking about here. Whether or not the popular will followed, lead, recoiled, or stayed indifferent is an interesting but separate question. And so in Italy. Risorgimento was a nationalism movement, lead by nationalists, to create a state that reflected their idea of a nation. I don't make any claims about the prior existence of subjective or objective nationality among the peasantry of the day.
Poor RCP has been in meltdown for the last week even before polling closed, and today their conservative lead article is openly calling for Republican state houses to nullify Democrat wins by appointing Republican electors!
RCP's final forecast of Biden 319 and Trump 219 could well however end up being almost spot on, they just wrongly called Florida for Biden and Georgia for Trump
So by "almost spot on" you mean "not particularly close" because flipping Georgia and Florida changes the winning margin from 100 to 74. You could say the states called were almost spot on but not the ECV forecast.
So far as I can see from this map -- and I may be wrong -- Surveymonkey also got all bar two states right, flipping North Carolina and Nevada. I suppose this raises the question of what pollsters are supposed to be predicting: binary win/lose, or margin.
Poor RCP has been in meltdown for the last week even before polling closed, and today their conservative lead article is openly calling for Republican state houses to nullify Democrat wins by appointing Republican electors!
RCP's final forecast of Biden 319 and Trump 219 could well however end up being almost spot on, they just wrongly called Florida for Biden and Georgia for Trump
What an absurd idea, you may as well say Manchester City and Manchester United fans do not belong in the same city because of their rivalry on match day
CNN reporter in Pittsburgh reporting another delay before the next 7k votes are announced. Stood in front of a virtually empty warehouse, a few blokes standing around with their hands in their pockets...
Why is the US so terrible at vote counting?
TBF they don't really need to do it fast, since their constitution lumbers them with a 3-month transition.
I wish these gormless fcukers could get their stories straight.
'Alister Jack has undermined Boris Johnson‘s position on a second Scottish independence referendum by claiming that the SNP could win the right to hold one in 2021.
The Scottish Secretary said the SNP securing an outright majority at the next Scottish Parliament election would constitute a “democratic mandate” for indyref2.'
That was a year ago before Boris made clear to him the position, Jack is now spouting the correct government line, 'no surrrender, no surrender, no surrender to the SNP!!'
Something to remember. A Biden win in all of these last count states other than NC makes it easier for the GOP to back away from a dragged out legal process because the victory is decisive.
What an absurd idea, you may as well say Manchester City and Manchester United fans do not belong in the same city because of their rivalry on match day
Tbf they generally don't. City fans are from Manchester. United are from Salford, Trafford, Surrey, Singapore, Nigeria, everywhere else basically
Yes, miraculous, that when you haven't finished counting the votes, the amounts then change. I'd say he was just shit stirring, but I think he genuinely believes is.
It doesn't matter what he believes, what he's doing is *fund-raising*.
What an absurd idea, you may as well say Manchester City and Manchester United fans do not belong in the same city because of their rivalry on match day
That’s actually quite a funny post, when you realise how and why Britain was invented. I’m saying they don’t share in the way you claim. Not Culture. Not Identity. Certainly not history. And the Vassal state no longer wishes to share politically. They can’t influence it enough.
If you insist these are part of the same Nation, I’m calling it a complete fabrication.
In the first half of the 1700s political plans and aspirations, to foster a British identity, including and transcending the older English and Scottish identities – the subjugation of the individual nationalisms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland into one union, one nation, under one King. Just as you said. Though of course you’ve lost Ireland from it.
At what point have the Scots ever been on board with being Vassal state of England? You saying all the shared history is good?
for God to Grant Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring, May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, This was sung as part of God Save The King during Jacobite Rising 1745-46, though it turned out Field Marshall Wade failed and was sacked, England still went on to achieve another famous victory over the old Enemy. So it began. The Nation you feel part of.
An astonishing revelation from 538: "It could be a slow night"
Here's the rest of it: "— and we may not get the network projection we’ve been waiting for. Apart from the regular updates from Pennsylvania we’ve all come to know and love (including the Allegheny County absentees I posted about earlier), the big thing we’re expecting is a batch of 60,000-70,000 votes from Maricopa County, Arizona, at 9 p.m. Eastern. Trump’s path in Arizona is narrowing, so those results could be crucial."
With that I think I'll be off to bed.
9 p.m. eastern ? (takes off socks to aid counting) that's 5.a.m. here. See you all in the morning.
CNN reporter in Pittsburgh reporting another delay before the next 7k votes are announced. Stood in front of a virtually empty warehouse, a few blokes standing around with their hands in their pockets...
Why is the US so terrible at vote counting?
TBF they don't really need to do it fast, since their constitution lumbers them with a 3-month transition.
The Electoral College meets on 14 December (and it looks like there is an earlier deadline of 8 December by which time votes are supposed to be counted). So about one month. This was (claimed to be) a consideration in the Supreme Court's controversial judgement in 2020. https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11641
An astonishing revelation from 538: "It could be a slow night"
Here's the rest of it: "— and we may not get the network projection we’ve been waiting for. Apart from the regular updates from Pennsylvania we’ve all come to know and love (including the Allegheny County absentees I posted about earlier), the big thing we’re expecting is a batch of 60,000-70,000 votes from Maricopa County, Arizona, at 9 p.m. Eastern. Trump’s path in Arizona is narrowing, so those results could be crucial."
With that I think I'll be off to bed.
9 p.m. eastern ? (takes off socks to aid counting) that's 5.a.m. here. See you all in the morning.
No 9pm Eastern is 2am here isn't it?
Eastern is 5h behind GMT isn't it? So 5am here would be midnight Eastern?
An astonishing revelation from 538: "It could be a slow night"
Here's the rest of it: "— and we may not get the network projection we’ve been waiting for. Apart from the regular updates from Pennsylvania we’ve all come to know and love (including the Allegheny County absentees I posted about earlier), the big thing we’re expecting is a batch of 60,000-70,000 votes from Maricopa County, Arizona, at 9 p.m. Eastern. Trump’s path in Arizona is narrowing, so those results could be crucial."
With that I think I'll be off to bed.
9 p.m. eastern ? (takes off socks to aid counting) that's 5.a.m. here. See you all in the morning.
What an absurd idea, you may as well say Manchester City and Manchester United fans do not belong in the same city because of their rivalry on match day
That’s actually quite a funny post, when you realise how and why Britain was invented. I’m saying they don’t share in the way you claim. Not Culture. Not Identity. Certainly not history. And the Vassal state no longer wishes to share politically. They can’t influence it enough.
If you insist these are part of the same Nation, I’m calling it a complete fabrication.
In the first half of the 1700s political plans and aspirations, to foster a British identity, including and transcending the older English and Scottish identities – the subjugation of the individual nationalisms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland into one union, one nation, under one King. Just as you said. Though of course you’ve lost Ireland from it.
At what point have the Scots ever been on board with being Vassal state of England? You saying all the shared history is good?
for God to Grant Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring, May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, This was sung as part of God Save The King during Jacobite Rising 1745-46, though it turned out Field Marshall Wade failed and was sacked, England still went on to achieve another famous victory over the old Enemy. So it began. The Nation you feel part of.
So what Germany was forged far later than the UK by Bismark with an iron fist under the leadership of Prussia, the USA was forged and cemented after a bloody civil war
“Please, don’t be too nice.” “When you guys put somebody in the car and you're protecting their head, you know, the way you put their hand over, like, don't hit their head and they've just killed somebody. Don't hit their head. I said, you can take the hand away, okay?”
CNN reporter in Pittsburgh reporting another delay before the next 7k votes are announced. Stood in front of a virtually empty warehouse, a few blokes standing around with their hands in their pockets...
Why is the US so terrible at vote counting?
TBF they don't really need to do it fast, since their constitution lumbers them with a 3-month transition.
The Electoral College meets on 14 December (and it looks like there is an earlier deadline of 8 December by which time votes are supposed to be counted). So about one month. This was (claimed to be) a consideration in the Supreme Court's controversial judgement in 2020. https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11641
Well right, that's over a month, so the first week or so isn't a big deal, it's not like Britain where there's a removal van waiting outside 10 Downing Street with the engine running.
What an absurd idea, you may as well say Manchester City and Manchester United fans do not belong in the same city because of their rivalry on match day
That’s actually quite a funny post, when you realise how and why Britain was invented. I’m saying they don’t share in the way you claim. Not Culture. Not Identity. Certainly not history. And the Vassal state no longer wishes to share politically. They can’t influence it enough.
If you insist these are part of the same Nation, I’m calling it a complete fabrication.
In the first half of the 1700s political plans and aspirations, to foster a British identity, including and transcending the older English and Scottish identities – the subjugation of the individual nationalisms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland into one union, one nation, under one King. Just as you said. Though of course you’ve lost Ireland from it.
At what point have the Scots ever been on board with being Vassal state of England? You saying all the shared history is good?
for God to Grant Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring, May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, This was sung as part of God Save The King during Jacobite Rising 1745-46, though it turned out Field Marshall Wade failed and was sacked, England still went on to achieve another famous victory over the old Enemy. So it began. The Nation you feel part of.
So what Germany was forged far later than the UK by Bismark with an iron fist under the leadership of Prussia, the USA was forged and cemented after a bloody civil war
You are hard work 🙂
That’s them, let’s focus on you. it is important to start with the Romans and ancient Greeks. Originally, Great Britain was called Albion (White Land) by the Roman conquerors, from the Latin word for white. Presumably they saw the white cliffs of Dover and thought we were one big choc ice. This later became ‘Britannia’. The word ‘Britannia’ is derived from ‘Pretannia’, from the term Greek historian Diodorus Siculus (1BC) used for the Pretani people, who the Greeks believed lived in Britain. Those living in Britannia would be referred to as Britanni.
The Romans created a goddess of Britannia, wearing a Centurion helmet and toga, with her right breast exposed. In the Victorian period, when the British Empire was rapidly expanding, this was altered to include her brandishing a trident and a shield with the British flag on, a patriotic representation of a nation’s militarism. She was also standing in the water, representing the nation’s oceanic dominance, often with a lion to represent trait for fiercely guarding territory whilst sporting fine mane of hair – England’s national animal came to us with the Norman dynasty following the 1066 papal crusade on England. (1066 wasn’t a Papal Crusade? Who funded them and legalised their capture in the name of God?).
18 years shy of two hundred years prior to his Saxon Britain defeated by Normans, Alfred is hiding out in the hut of the shepherd Corin and his wife Emma, nursing a good kicking by the Vikings. Alfred expresses his anguish at the state of affairs of his kingdom and prays to the Genius of Britannia (the Roman Goddess presumably, maybe a little odd for a Christian but carry on). Edward brings news that twelve hundred Britons loyal to Alfred are camped nearby and awaiting his command. Emma and Corrin now realise the true identity of their guests as Alfred departs for battle. When news of his victory reaches them, all rejoice. Edward praises the return of British values. Alfred, exhorts his people: "Britons, proceed, the subject deep command, awe with your navies ev'ry hostile land". In response, all sing "Rule Britania", an ode in honour of Great Britain.
Can you not see what is staring at you there? Scotland has never been part of a British nation. The whole idea of Britain never existed in any reality outside of political fabrication, outside a court to please a King.
Once the President has calmed down, it is hard to know where this strategy is supposed to lead, as there are just too many states where the result would need to be overturned and the Supreme Court will not retrospectively bar all absentee ballots (and is not being asked to do so).
Once the President has calmed down, it is hard to know where this strategy is supposed to lead, as there are just too many states where the result would need to be overturned and the Supreme Court will not retrospectively bar all absentee ballots (and is not being asked to do so).
It's not a mystery, it's supposed to lead to people sending him money.
Note that Trump lends his own campaign money (which it spends leasing property from him among other things), so paying back its debts often means giving money directly to Donald Trump.
Quite right too, well done Alister Jack, a generation means precisely that
We tend to be in broad agreement on the Independence issue , but I cannot accept that a further 25 to 40 years is reasonable. We are already over 6 years beyond the 2014 Referendum and whilst I see a further Referendum within the next few years as being contrary to the spirit of the last vote, I would not oppose another vote post 2035 should Scotland want that.
What an absurd idea, you may as well say Manchester City and Manchester United fans do not belong in the same city because of their rivalry on match day
That’s actually quite a funny post, when you realise how and why Britain was invented. I’m saying they don’t share in the way you claim. Not Culture. Not Identity. Certainly not history. And the Vassal state no longer wishes to share politically. They can’t influence it enough.
If you insist these are part of the same Nation, I’m calling it a complete fabrication.
In the first half of the 1700s political plans and aspirations, to foster a British identity, including and transcending the older English and Scottish identities – the subjugation of the individual nationalisms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland into one union, one nation, under one King. Just as you said. Though of course you’ve lost Ireland from it.
At what point have the Scots ever been on board with being Vassal state of England? You saying all the shared history is good?
for God to Grant Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring, May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, This was sung as part of God Save The King during Jacobite Rising 1745-46, though it turned out Field Marshall Wade failed and was sacked, England still went on to achieve another famous victory over the old Enemy. So it began. The Nation you feel part of.
So what Germany was forged far later than the UK by Bismark with an iron fist under the leadership of Prussia, the USA was forged and cemented after a bloody civil war
You are hard work 🙂
That’s them, let’s focus on you. it is important to start with the Romans and ancient Greeks. Originally, Great Britain was called Albion (White Land) by the Roman conquerors, from the Latin word for white. Presumably they saw the white cliffs of Dover and thought we were one big choc ice. This later became ‘Britannia’. The word ‘Britannia’ is derived from ‘Pretannia’, from the term Greek historian Diodorus Siculus (1BC) used for the Pretani people, who the Greeks believed lived in Britain. Those living in Britannia would be referred to as Britanni.
The Romans created a goddess of Britannia, wearing a Centurion helmet and toga, with her right breast exposed. In the Victorian period, when the British Empire was rapidly expanding, this was altered to include her brandishing a trident and a shield with the British flag on, a patriotic representation of a nation’s militarism. She was also standing in the water, representing the nation’s oceanic dominance, often with a lion to represent trait for fiercely guarding territory whilst sporting fine mane of hair – England’s national animal came to us with the Norman dynasty following the 1066 papal crusade on England. (1066 wasn’t a Papal Crusade? Who funded them and legalised their capture in the name of God?).
18 years shy of two hundred years prior to his Saxon Britain defeated by Normans, Alfred is hiding out in the hut of the shepherd Corin and his wife Emma, nursing a good kicking by the Vikings. Alfred expresses his anguish at the state of affairs of his kingdom and prays to the Genius of Britannia (the Roman Goddess presumably, maybe a little odd for a Christian but carry on). Edward brings news that twelve hundred Britons loyal to Alfred are camped nearby and awaiting his command. Emma and Corrin now realise the true identity of their guests as Alfred departs for battle. When news of his victory reaches them, all rejoice. Edward praises the return of British values. Alfred, exhorts his people: "Britons, proceed, the subject deep command, awe with your navies ev'ry hostile land". In response, all sing "Rule Britania", an ode in honour of Great Britain.
Can you not see what is staring at you there? Scotland has never been part of a British nation. The whole idea of Britain never existed in any reality outside of political fabrication, outside a court to please a King.
Yet again irrelevant, every nation in history has only been cobbled together out of different composite regions and areas, including Scotland itself which was only created by bringing together Pictland, part of Northumbria and Dal Riata.
Scots themselves voted 55% to stay in the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
Quite right too, well done Alister Jack, a generation means precisely that
We tend to be in broad agreement on the Independence issue , but I cannot accept that a further 25 to 40 years is reasonable. We are already over 6 years beyond the 2014 Referendum and whilst I see a further Referendum within the next few years as being contrary to the spirit of the last vote, I would not oppose another vote post 2035 should Scotland want that.
Quite right too, well done Alister Jack, a generation means precisely that
We tend to be in broad agreement on the Independence issue , but I cannot accept that a further 25 to 40 years is reasonable. We are already over 6 years beyond the 2014 Referendum and whilst I see a further Referendum within the next few years as being contrary to the spirit of the last vote, I would not oppose another vote post 2035 should Scotland want that.
The abiding question is, though, what if there was a settled and obvious will for a new referendum in Scotland in 2021? As I recall, the referendum was on Scotland becoming an independent country, and the question of there being a new referendum (or not) was not decided at all by voters that day.
Have a look at the UKIP stats in Scotland and at SNP policy on who gets Scottish passports - not to mention who gets to live in Sciotland at all.
The SNP{ aren't the ones who scream and shout at other Europeans sitting in Holyrood. Or in Westminster. Hell, the Tories scream and shout at Scots sitting in Westminster.
Gotta say TSE, with the exception of some of the older school nutters, the SNP are much much less nativist than the Tory part.
You obviously have not encountered the cybernats
Now Trump's toast, who's going to be your populist nationalist poster boy?
I always said I would have voted for Biden but GOP for Congress and I voted Remain, the only nationalist amongst the 2 of us is you and your fellow English hating, ranting, Bannockburn obsessing, saltire waving, whinging, bitter Scottish nationalists!!!
That told them 😁
But in the interests of balance though, If Ireland can exist okay out the U.K. in EU, what is the argument an independent Scotland can’t as well?
But nations need to keep their identity, their culture, their democracy, and where these are smothered by any union with other nations, with so much surrender of your sovereignty into the pool, so some far away government, speaking a language other than your own, now rules over you, you vote and everything stays the same, building up your desire to take back control - something has got to change hasn’t it?
Are you saying that feeling just made up? Got up by scoundrels? It’s not really real? That there is no excuse to feel that?
Great post. That is why I am an English supporter of Scottish Independence. For entirely positive and well meant reasons.
Thank you. 🙂
Would it be best then to have a conscious decoupling, like via a Royal Commission. So as not to throw out with the change cooperation that really is helpful win win?
No as Scots voted against independence in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
And Brexit doesn’t change that? the desire of majority of English and Welsh, those original Roman Britons, to brexit, can’t have the same powerful Brexit arguments to escape from vassalage, to take back sovereignty and control, turned back upon them in ScotRef2 now because of brexit?
No, Cameron had said he would hold an EUref even before the indyref in 2014, it was a once in a generation referendum and that will stand.
Plus the prospect of a hard border with England still keeps Scots behind the Union post Brexit
I’m sure you agree with Richard and myself, just don’t realise it. It hinges upon understanding what a nation actually is. 🙂
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
The UK is older as a nation than Germany, Italy, India, the USA, Canada and Australia, all of them manage to be effective union of states and so can we, otherwise on your absurd argument they should all dissolve too
What made Italy? Nationalism. What made India? Nationalism. What made Germany? Nationalism.
At time of the 1789 French Revolution only half of the French people spoke some French, the state made the French nation not a French nationalism. During the Italian unification the % of people speaking the Italian language was even lower. To the creation of Germany following the Austro Prussian war, all those people with different languages and culture who didn’t wish to be part of Germany, the Schleswig-Holstein question that clearly proves a nation did not exist before the German state.
Is British a Nationalism?
It's pretty difficult to tell how widespread the sentiment was in those times, and using language as a proxy for that sentiment brings even more problems to the table, probably more than it solves. However, it's not really my point. The idea that the coalescing of the Sicilies, and the Papal States, and Lombardy, etc into a single "Italy" was a nationalist idea. It is one that was successfully implemented, for good or for ill. Nationalism made Italy. Did all "Italians" speak the same languages? No, not at all. Was there a popular sentiment for a nation state? Difficult to say, but let's say no for sake of argument. Nevertheless, it happened. The beliefs of the common people, the great majority who didn't have a political say and didn't participate one way or another aren't what counts here -- they should have done, but these were not democracies. The French revolution was (to begin with, the 1789 edition) a liberal revolution against absolutist monarchy. The change for the French state from absolutist to liberal state with successive constitutions reflects the change in the organisation of political power. That's all we're talking about here. Whether or not the popular will followed, lead, recoiled, or stayed indifferent is an interesting but separate question. And so in Italy. Risorgimento was a nationalism movement, lead by nationalists, to create a state that reflected their idea of a nation. I don't make any claims about the prior existence of subjective or objective nationality among the peasantry of the day.
So how do you answer my questions? I’m seriously interested to read them answered by an eloquent defender of that certain type of contrived Nationalism.
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
Quite right too, well done Alister Jack, a generation means precisely that
We tend to be in broad agreement on the Independence issue , but I cannot accept that a further 25 to 40 years is reasonable. We are already over 6 years beyond the 2014 Referendum and whilst I see a further Referendum within the next few years as being contrary to the spirit of the last vote, I would not oppose another vote post 2035 should Scotland want that.
The abiding question is, though, what if there was a settled and obvious will for a new referendum in Scotland in 2021? As I recall, the referendum was on Scotland becoming an independent country, and the question of there being a new referendum (or not) was not decided at all by voters that day.
There was a settled will in Catalonia for a referendum in 2017, Madrid just ignored it and they have not even had one referendum, under our constitution Westminster is sovereign
What an absurd idea, you may as well say Manchester City and Manchester United fans do not belong in the same city because of their rivalry on match day
That’s actually quite a funny post, when you realise how and why Britain was invented. I’m saying they don’t share in the way you claim. Not Culture. Not Identity. Certainly not history. And the Vassal state no longer wishes to share politically. They can’t influence it enough.
If you insist these are part of the same Nation, I’m calling it a complete fabrication.
In the first half of the 1700s political plans and aspirations, to foster a British identity, including and transcending the older English and Scottish identities – the subjugation of the individual nationalisms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland into one union, one nation, under one King. Just as you said. Though of course you’ve lost Ireland from it.
At what point have the Scots ever been on board with being Vassal state of England? You saying all the shared history is good?
for God to Grant Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring, May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, This was sung as part of God Save The King during Jacobite Rising 1745-46, though it turned out Field Marshall Wade failed and was sacked, England still went on to achieve another famous victory over the old Enemy. So it began. The Nation you feel part of.
You write as if the battle of Culloden pitted England against Scotland, which is just hooey even if you can cite a song to prove the existence of opposition in England a couple of centuries ago, among Hanoverians, to those among the Scots who were "rebels". Big deal.
What an absurd idea, you may as well say Manchester City and Manchester United fans do not belong in the same city because of their rivalry on match day
That’s actually quite a funny post, when you realise how and why Britain was invented. I’m saying they don’t share in the way you claim. Not Culture. Not Identity. Certainly not history. And the Vassal state no longer wishes to share politically. They can’t influence it enough.
If you insist these are part of the same Nation, I’m calling it a complete fabrication.
In the first half of the 1700s political plans and aspirations, to foster a British identity, including and transcending the older English and Scottish identities – the subjugation of the individual nationalisms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland into one union, one nation, under one King. Just as you said. Though of course you’ve lost Ireland from it.
At what point have the Scots ever been on board with being Vassal state of England? You saying all the shared history is good?
for God to Grant Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring, May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, This was sung as part of God Save The King during Jacobite Rising 1745-46, though it turned out Field Marshall Wade failed and was sacked, England still went on to achieve another famous victory over the old Enemy. So it began. The Nation you feel part of.
So what Germany was forged far later than the UK by Bismark with an iron fist under the leadership of Prussia, the USA was forged and cemented after a bloody civil war
You are hard work 🙂
That’s them, let’s focus on you. it is important to start with the Romans and ancient Greeks. Originally, Great Britain was called Albion (White Land) by the Roman conquerors, from the Latin word for white. Presumably they saw the white cliffs of Dover and thought we were one big choc ice. This later became ‘Britannia’. The word ‘Britannia’ is derived from ‘Pretannia’, from the term Greek historian Diodorus Siculus (1BC) used for the Pretani people, who the Greeks believed lived in Britain. Those living in Britannia would be referred to as Britanni.
The Romans created a goddess of Britannia, wearing a Centurion helmet and toga, with her right breast exposed. In the Victorian period, when the British Empire was rapidly expanding, this was altered to include her brandishing a trident and a shield with the British flag on, a patriotic representation of a nation’s militarism. She was also standing in the water, representing the nation’s oceanic dominance, often with a lion to represent trait for fiercely guarding territory whilst sporting fine mane of hair – England’s national animal came to us with the Norman dynasty following the 1066 papal crusade on England. (1066 wasn’t a Papal Crusade? Who funded them and legalised their capture in the name of God?).
18 years shy of two hundred years prior to his Saxon Britain defeated by Normans, Alfred is hiding out in the hut of the shepherd Corin and his wife Emma, nursing a good kicking by the Vikings. Alfred expresses his anguish at the state of affairs of his kingdom and prays to the Genius of Britannia (the Roman Goddess presumably, maybe a little odd for a Christian but carry on). Edward brings news that twelve hundred Britons loyal to Alfred are camped nearby and awaiting his command. Emma and Corrin now realise the true identity of their guests as Alfred departs for battle. When news of his victory reaches them, all rejoice. Edward praises the return of British values. Alfred, exhorts his people: "Britons, proceed, the subject deep command, awe with your navies ev'ry hostile land". In response, all sing "Rule Britania", an ode in honour of Great Britain.
Can you not see what is staring at you there? Scotland has never been part of a British nation. The whole idea of Britain never existed in any reality outside of political fabrication, outside a court to please a King.
If many on both sides of the border believe they belong to a country called Britain that includes England and Scotland then it does exist. For them. That's how national identity works. Yes, it's an illusion, or a cultural construct, but so it is for every nation, including Scotland. You can't prove otherwise with reference to some masque written in the 18th century about a 9th century Saxon king.
Several of your premises are crazed, e.g. Scotland as a "vassal state of England", and when reflected in a mirror they give an image of a crazed English counterpart (funnily enough perhaps he's dressed as a Crusader) who believes Edinburgh belongs to England because it used to be Edwin's Burgh and can cite as evidence what Edwin's men had for breakfast in Northumbria in the 7th century and how it didn't include oats.
Live in the real world, mate. Of course Scottish figures played a major role in what is called the British Empire - commanding army regiments, owning slaves, planting the Union Jack around the world, the lot of it.
What an absurd idea, you may as well say Manchester City and Manchester United fans do not belong in the same city because of their rivalry on match day
That’s actually quite a funny post, when you realise how and why Britain was invented. I’m saying they don’t share in the way you claim. Not Culture. Not Identity. Certainly not history. And the Vassal state no longer wishes to share politically. They can’t influence it enough.
If you insist these are part of the same Nation, I’m calling it a complete fabrication.
In the first half of the 1700s political plans and aspirations, to foster a British identity, including and transcending the older English and Scottish identities – the subjugation of the individual nationalisms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland into one union, one nation, under one King. Just as you said. Though of course you’ve lost Ireland from it.
At what point have the Scots ever been on board with being Vassal state of England? You saying all the shared history is good?
for God to Grant Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring, May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, This was sung as part of God Save The King during Jacobite Rising 1745-46, though it turned out Field Marshall Wade failed and was sacked, England still went on to achieve another famous victory over the old Enemy. So it began. The Nation you feel part of.
So what Germany was forged far later than the UK by Bismark with an iron fist under the leadership of Prussia, the USA was forged and cemented after a bloody civil war
You are hard work 🙂
That’s them, let’s focus on you. it is important to start with the Romans and ancient Greeks. Originally, Great Britain was called Albion (White Land) by the Roman conquerors, from the Latin word for white. Presumably they saw the white cliffs of Dover and thought we were one big choc ice. This later became ‘Britannia’. The word ‘Britannia’ is derived from ‘Pretannia’, from the term Greek historian Diodorus Siculus (1BC) used for the Pretani people, who the Greeks believed lived in Britain. Those living in Britannia would be referred to as Britanni.
The Romans created a goddess of Britannia, wearing a Centurion helmet and toga, with her right breast exposed. In the Victorian period, when the British Empire was rapidly expanding, this was altered to include her brandishing a trident and a shield with the British flag on, a patriotic representation of a nation’s militarism. She was also standing in the water, representing the nation’s oceanic dominance, often with a lion to represent trait for fiercely guarding territory whilst sporting fine mane of hair – England’s national animal came to us with the Norman dynasty following the 1066 papal crusade on England. (1066 wasn’t a Papal Crusade? Who funded them and legalised their capture in the name of God?).
18 years shy of two hundred years prior to his Saxon Britain defeated by Normans, Alfred is hiding out in the hut of the shepherd Corin and his wife Emma, nursing a good kicking by the Vikings. Alfred expresses his anguish at the state of affairs of his kingdom and prays to the Genius of Britannia (the Roman Goddess presumably, maybe a little odd for a Christian but carry on). Edward brings news that twelve hundred Britons loyal to Alfred are camped nearby and awaiting his command. Emma and Corrin now realise the true identity of their guests as Alfred departs for battle. When news of his victory reaches them, all rejoice. Edward praises the return of British values. Alfred, exhorts his people: "Britons, proceed, the subject deep command, awe with your navies ev'ry hostile land". In response, all sing "Rule Britania", an ode in honour of Great Britain.
Can you not see what is staring at you there? Scotland has never been part of a British nation. The whole idea of Britain never existed in any reality outside of political fabrication, outside a court to please a King.
Yet again irrelevant, every nation in history has only been cobbled together out of different composite regions and areas, including Scotland itself which was only created by bringing together Pictland, part of Northumbria and Dal Riata.
Scots themselves voted 55% to stay in the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
Okay. Scottish Nationalism and its desire to break from the UK is a little close to home and sensitive to us, can we better appreciate the situation with aid of a black mirror, to a time and place distant from our own sentimentalities.
Freedom Trilogy (Victoria 1, 2, and 3 from 1983 to 1984 by Antoni Ribas). The period setting used for these films is Barcelona during the First World War, throughout which Spain maintained neutrality. The Trilogy as a whole, across a series of allegorical situations are slyly built on historical accuracy concern separate national and ethnic identity of Catalonia, a film project only possible in Spain after end of the Franco era and transition period 75 to 82, enjoying a push upon boundaries of its own newly found artistic and political “freedoms”.
The language may simply sound foreign, presumably Spanish, is in fact Catalan. A language predating Spanish historically.
Not simply regarding the vibrant state of Catalan and Scottish independence movements today, but considering also electoral success of populist governments in USA and Italy, and not forgetting Brexit, themes explored in this film series, identification with community, the perception of the local distinction, centralisation versus freedom and independence, as relevant to us as ever. And never anything which can be decided once and for all. Or feelings that are parked after a once in generation vote. As they say in this film: governments change, for us everything remains the same - does this sentiment also pair nicely with, then lets “take back control?”
Take back control in this instance, regardless who sits in government in Madrid, Madrid governs Barcelona from the castle overlooking the city - so the separatists plot to blow up the castle. Blowing up the castle and the government employees may sound like terrorism to you? Yet, the castle on the hill remains home to spy’s and apparatchiks, functioning as a deepstate jackboot upon the neck of Catalan culture and its language, identity, financial and democratic independence.
Quite right too, well done Alister Jack, a generation means precisely that
We tend to be in broad agreement on the Independence issue , but I cannot accept that a further 25 to 40 years is reasonable. We are already over 6 years beyond the 2014 Referendum and whilst I see a further Referendum within the next few years as being contrary to the spirit of the last vote, I would not oppose another vote post 2035 should Scotland want that.
The abiding question is, though, what if there was a settled and obvious will for a new referendum in Scotland in 2021? As I recall, the referendum was on Scotland becoming an independent country, and the question of there being a new referendum (or not) was not decided at all by voters that day.
In the absence of a 75% plus turnout for Holyrood I will remain unpersuaded.
What an absurd idea, you may as well say Manchester City and Manchester United fans do not belong in the same city because of their rivalry on match day
That’s actually quite a funny post, when you realise how and why Britain was invented. I’m saying they don’t share in the way you claim. Not Culture. Not Identity. Certainly not history. And the Vassal state no longer wishes to share politically. They can’t influence it enough.
If you insist these are part of the same Nation, I’m calling it a complete fabrication.
In the first half of the 1700s political plans and aspirations, to foster a British identity, including and transcending the older English and Scottish identities – the subjugation of the individual nationalisms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland into one union, one nation, under one King. Just as you said. Though of course you’ve lost Ireland from it.
At what point have the Scots ever been on board with being Vassal state of England? You saying all the shared history is good?
for God to Grant Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring, May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, This was sung as part of God Save The King during Jacobite Rising 1745-46, though it turned out Field Marshall Wade failed and was sacked, England still went on to achieve another famous victory over the old Enemy. So it began. The Nation you feel part of.
You write as if the battle of Culloden pitted England against Scotland, which is just hooey even if you can cite a song to prove the existence of opposition in England a couple of centuries ago, among Hanoverians, to those among the Scots who were "rebels". Big deal.
What an absurd idea, you may as well say Manchester City and Manchester United fans do not belong in the same city because of their rivalry on match day
That’s actually quite a funny post, when you realise how and why Britain was invented. I’m saying they don’t share in the way you claim. Not Culture. Not Identity. Certainly not history. And the Vassal state no longer wishes to share politically. They can’t influence it enough.
If you insist these are part of the same Nation, I’m calling it a complete fabrication.
In the first half of the 1700s political plans and aspirations, to foster a British identity, including and transcending the older English and Scottish identities – the subjugation of the individual nationalisms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland into one union, one nation, under one King. Just as you said. Though of course you’ve lost Ireland from it.
At what point have the Scots ever been on board with being Vassal state of England? You saying all the shared history is good?
for God to Grant Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring, May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, This was sung as part of God Save The King during Jacobite Rising 1745-46, though it turned out Field Marshall Wade failed and was sacked, England still went on to achieve another famous victory over the old Enemy. So it began. The Nation you feel part of.
So what Germany was forged far later than the UK by Bismark with an iron fist under the leadership of Prussia, the USA was forged and cemented after a bloody civil war
You are hard work 🙂
That’s them, let’s focus on you. it is important to start with the Romans and ancient Greeks. Originally, Great Britain was called Albion (White Land) by the Roman conquerors, from the Latin word for white. Presumably they saw the white cliffs of Dover and thought we were one big choc ice. This later became ‘Britannia’. The word ‘Britannia’ is derived from ‘Pretannia’, from the term Greek historian Diodorus Siculus (1BC) used for the Pretani people, who the Greeks believed lived in Britain. Those living in Britannia would be referred to as Britanni.
The Romans created a goddess of Britannia, wearing a Centurion helmet and toga, with her right breast exposed. In the Victorian period, when the British Empire was rapidly expanding, this was altered to include her brandishing a trident and a shield with the British flag on, a patriotic representation of a nation’s militarism. She was also standing in the water, representing the nation’s oceanic dominance, often with a lion to represent trait for fiercely guarding territory whilst sporting fine mane of hair – England’s national animal came to us with the Norman dynasty following the 1066 papal crusade on England. (1066 wasn’t a Papal Crusade? Who funded them and legalised their capture in the name of God?).
18 years shy of two hundred years prior to his Saxon Britain defeated by Normans, Alfred is hiding out in the hut of the shepherd Corin and his wife Emma, nursing a good kicking by the Vikings. Alfred expresses his anguish at the state of affairs of his kingdom and prays to the Genius of Britannia (the Roman Goddess presumably, maybe a little odd for a Christian but carry on). Edward brings news that twelve hundred Britons loyal to Alfred are camped nearby and awaiting his command. Emma and Corrin now realise the true identity of their guests as Alfred departs for battle. When news of his victory reaches them, all rejoice. Edward praises the return of British values. Alfred, exhorts his people: "Britons, proceed, the subject deep command, awe with your navies ev'ry hostile land". In response, all sing "Rule Britania", an ode in honour of Great Britain.
Can you not see what is staring at you there? Scotland has never been part of a British nation. The whole idea of Britain never existed in any reality outside of political fabrication, outside a court to please a King.
If many on both sides of the border believe they belong to a country called Britain that includes England and Scotland then it does exist. For them. That's how national identity works. Yes, it's an illusion, or a cultural construct, but so it is for every nation, including Scotland. You can't prove otherwise with reference to some masque written in the 18th century about a 9th century Saxon king.
Several of your premises are crazed, e.g. Scotland as a "vassal state of England", and when reflected in a mirror they give an image of a crazed English counterpart (funnily enough perhaps he's dressed as a Crusader) who believes Edinburgh belongs to England because it used to be Edwin's Burgh and can cite as evidence what Edwin's men had for breakfast in Northumbria in the 7th century and how it didn't include oats.
Live in the real world, mate. Of course Scottish figures played a major role in what is called the British Empire - commanding army regiments, owning slaves, planting the Union Jack around the world, the lot of it.
What an absurd idea, you may as well say Manchester City and Manchester United fans do not belong in the same city because of their rivalry on match day
That’s actually quite a funny post, when you realise how and why Britain was invented. I’m saying they don’t share in the way you claim. Not Culture. Not Identity. Certainly not history. And the Vassal state no longer wishes to share politically. They can’t influence it enough.
If you insist these are part of the same Nation, I’m calling it a complete fabrication.
In the first half of the 1700s political plans and aspirations, to foster a British identity, including and transcending the older English and Scottish identities – the subjugation of the individual nationalisms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland into one union, one nation, under one King. Just as you said. Though of course you’ve lost Ireland from it.
At what point have the Scots ever been on board with being Vassal state of England? You saying all the shared history is good?
for God to Grant Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring, May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, This was sung as part of God Save The King during Jacobite Rising 1745-46, though it turned out Field Marshall Wade failed and was sacked, England still went on to achieve another famous victory over the old Enemy. So it began. The Nation you feel part of.
So what Germany was forged far later than the UK by Bismark with an iron fist under the leadership of Prussia, the USA was forged and cemented after a bloody civil war
You are hard work 🙂
That’s them, let’s focus on you. it is important to start with the Romans and ancient Greeks. Originally, Great Britain was called Albion (White Land) by the Roman conquerors, from the Latin word for white. Presumably they saw the white cliffs of Dover and thought we were one big choc ice. This later became ‘Britannia’. The word ‘Britannia’ is derived from ‘Pretannia’, from the term Greek historian Diodorus Siculus (1BC) used for the Pretani people, who the Greeks believed lived in Britain. Those living in Britannia would be referred to as Britanni.
The Romans created a goddess of Britannia, wearing a Centurion helmet and toga, with her right breast exposed. In the Victorian period, when the British Empire was rapidly expanding, this was altered to include her brandishing a trident and a shield with the British flag on, a patriotic representation of a nation’s militarism. She was also standing in the water, representing the nation’s oceanic dominance, often with a lion to represent trait for fiercely guarding territory whilst sporting fine mane of hair – England’s national animal came to us with the Norman dynasty following the 1066 papal crusade on England. (1066 wasn’t a Papal Crusade? Who funded them and legalised their capture in the name of God?).
18 years shy of two hundred years prior to his Saxon Britain defeated by Normans, Alfred is hiding out in the hut of the shepherd Corin and his wife Emma, nursing a good kicking by the Vikings. Alfred expresses his anguish at the state of affairs of his kingdom and prays to the Genius of Britannia (the Roman Goddess presumably, maybe a little odd for a Christian but carry on). Edward brings news that twelve hundred Britons loyal to Alfred are camped nearby and awaiting his command. Emma and Corrin now realise the true identity of their guests as Alfred departs for battle. When news of his victory reaches them, all rejoice. Edward praises the return of British values. Alfred, exhorts his people: "Britons, proceed, the subject deep command, awe with your navies ev'ry hostile land". In response, all sing "Rule Britania", an ode in honour of Great Britain.
Can you not see what is staring at you there? Scotland has never been part of a British nation. The whole idea of Britain never existed in any reality outside of political fabrication, outside a court to please a King.
Yet again irrelevant, every nation in history has only been cobbled together out of different composite regions and areas, including Scotland itself which was only created by bringing together Pictland, part of Northumbria and Dal Riata.
Scots themselves voted 55% to stay in the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
Okay. Scottish Nationalism and its desire to break from the UK is a little close to home and sensitive to us, can we better appreciate the situation with aid of a black mirror, to a time and place distant from our own sentimentalities.
Freedom Trilogy (Victoria 1, 2, and 3 from 1983 to 1984 by Antoni Ribas). The period setting used for these films is Barcelona during the First World War, throughout which Spain maintained neutrality. The Trilogy as a whole, across a series of allegorical situations are slyly built on historical accuracy concern separate national and ethnic identity of Catalonia, a film project only possible in Spain after end of the Franco era and transition period 75 to 82, enjoying a push upon boundaries of its own newly found artistic and political “freedoms”.
The language may simply sound foreign, presumably Spanish, is in fact Catalan. A language predating Spanish historically.
Not simply regarding the vibrant state of Catalan and Scottish independence movements today, but considering also electoral success of populist governments in USA and Italy, and not forgetting Brexit, themes explored in this film series, identification with community, the perception of the local distinction, centralisation versus freedom and independence, as relevant to us as ever. And never anything which can be decided once and for all. Or feelings that are parked after a once in generation vote. As they say in this film: governments change, for us everything remains the same - does this sentiment also pair nicely with, then lets “take back control?”
Take back control in this instance, regardless who sits in government in Madrid, Madrid governs Barcelona from the castle overlooking the city - so the separatists plot to blow up the castle. Blowing up the castle and the government employees may sound like terrorism to you? Yet, the castle on the hill remains home to spy’s and apparatchiks, functioning as a deepstate jackboot upon the neck of Catalan culture and its language, identity, financial and democratic independence.
So what would you do in their situation?
We faced the same with the IRA, as with Madrid I would not give in to terrorism
Comments
Plus of course if Scotland left us to rejoin the EU it would be treated exactly the same as any other EU nation with no favours and if that means tariffs on Scottish exports to England after we have left the Single Market and Customs Union then so be it
This is a question of national aspiration. If the Scots, who have been an independent country for much of their history, wish to return to that status then we should not be standing in the way of them making that choice. Anymore than it would have been right for the EU to prevent the UK from leaving. Yes it is entirely possible that, given that choice, the majority might choose the status quo. But to try and argue that nothing materially has changed since 2014 is thoroughly disingenuous.
The missus supports NUFC. So the hat trick is some way off.
"Pennsylvania just released 2,292 more votes from Philadelphia County and 1,043 more from Northampton County. Biden did very well in each of them (he got 82 percent of the Philadelphia votes and 71 percent of the Northampton votes), extending his statewide lead even further, as he’s done all day. When we woke up this morning, Trump was leading in Pennsylvania. Now, Biden has a 17,012-vote lead."
https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/11/06/the-real-resistance/
I mean WTF?
https://twitter.com/RileySnyder/status/1324866765562634240
Roy the Retread
Scottish independence would almost certainly equally be met by a surge in English nationalism and no mood for concessions to Edinburgh at all
Is British a Nationalism?
The EU are seeking their own interests in the Brexit talks but they do wish to remain friends. It isn't some mutual nationalist dickwaving contest.
Here's the rest of it:
"— and we may not get the network projection we’ve been waiting for. Apart from the regular updates from Pennsylvania we’ve all come to know and love (including the Allegheny County absentees I posted about earlier), the big thing we’re expecting is a batch of 60,000-70,000 votes from Maricopa County, Arizona, at 9 p.m. Eastern. Trump’s path in Arizona is narrowing, so those results could be crucial."
With that I think I'll be off to bed.
Perhaps the last eight years can be written out of the history books like the English Commonwealth?
'Alister Jack has undermined Boris Johnson‘s position on a second Scottish independence referendum by claiming that the SNP could win the right to hold one in 2021.
The Scottish Secretary said the SNP securing an outright majority at the next Scottish Parliament election would constitute a “democratic mandate” for indyref2.'
https://tinyurl.com/y533zsvw
What do you call this Nation?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBL_P2qDNtw&feature=emb_logo
"But a far better word for them would be ‘the unconquerables’. These are minds and hearts uncolonised by the new orthodoxies. Seventy million people in a peaceful state of revolt against the new establishment and its eccentric, authoritarian ideologies."
Brendan my friend. May I gently point out who has been in power for 4 years?
19k lead for Biden
102k ballots outstanding
Majority outstanding Alleghany or Pittsburgh (strong blue counties)
Too Close To Call.
WTAF?
“It's true hard work never killed anybody, but I figure, why take the chance?”
However, it's not really my point. The idea that the coalescing of the Sicilies, and the Papal States, and Lombardy, etc into a single "Italy" was a nationalist idea. It is one that was successfully implemented, for good or for ill. Nationalism made Italy. Did all "Italians" speak the same languages? No, not at all. Was there a popular sentiment for a nation state? Difficult to say, but let's say no for sake of argument. Nevertheless, it happened. The beliefs of the common people, the great majority who didn't have a political say and didn't participate one way or another aren't what counts here -- they should have done, but these were not democracies.
The French revolution was (to begin with, the 1789 edition) a liberal revolution against absolutist monarchy. The change for the French state from absolutist to liberal state with successive constitutions reflects the change in the organisation of political power. That's all we're talking about here. Whether or not the popular will followed, lead, recoiled, or stayed indifferent is an interesting but separate question. And so in Italy. Risorgimento was a nationalism movement, lead by nationalists, to create a state that reflected their idea of a nation. I don't make any claims about the prior existence of subjective or objective nationality among the peasantry of the day.
Did you want leave or Trump to win?
https://www.tableau.com/data-insights/us-election-2020/candidate-preference
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/
This is important to where we go next.
If you insist these are part of the same Nation, I’m calling it a complete fabrication.
In the first half of the 1700s political plans and aspirations, to foster a British identity, including and transcending the older English and Scottish identities – the subjugation of the individual nationalisms of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland into one union, one nation, under one King. Just as you said. Though of course you’ve lost Ireland from it.
At what point have the Scots ever been on board with being Vassal state of England? You saying all the shared history is good?
for God to Grant Marshal Wade, May by thy mighty aid, Victory bring, May he sedition hush, And like a torrent rush, Rebellious Scots to crush, This was sung as part of God Save The King during Jacobite Rising 1745-46, though it turned out Field Marshall Wade failed and was sacked, England still went on to achieve another famous victory over the old Enemy. So it began. The Nation you feel part of.
https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1324868110529277958
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11641
Eastern is 5h behind GMT isn't it? So 5am here would be midnight Eastern?
“When you guys put somebody in the car and you're protecting their head, you know, the way you put their hand over, like, don't hit their head and they've just killed somebody. Don't hit their head. I said, you can take the hand away, okay?”
That’s them, let’s focus on you. it is important to start with the Romans and ancient Greeks. Originally, Great Britain was called Albion (White Land) by the Roman conquerors, from the Latin word for white. Presumably they saw the white cliffs of Dover and thought we were one big choc ice. This later became ‘Britannia’. The word ‘Britannia’ is derived from ‘Pretannia’, from the term Greek historian Diodorus Siculus (1BC) used for the Pretani people, who the Greeks believed lived in Britain. Those living in Britannia would be referred to as Britanni.
The Romans created a goddess of Britannia, wearing a Centurion helmet and toga, with her right breast exposed. In the Victorian period, when the British Empire was rapidly expanding, this was altered to include her brandishing a trident and a shield with the British flag on, a patriotic representation of a nation’s militarism. She was also standing in the water, representing the nation’s oceanic dominance, often with a lion to represent trait for fiercely guarding territory whilst sporting fine mane of hair – England’s national animal came to us with the Norman dynasty following the 1066 papal crusade on England. (1066 wasn’t a Papal Crusade? Who funded them and legalised their capture in the name of God?).
18 years shy of two hundred years prior to his Saxon Britain defeated by Normans, Alfred is hiding out in the hut of the shepherd Corin and his wife Emma, nursing a good kicking by the Vikings. Alfred expresses his anguish at the state of affairs of his kingdom and prays to the Genius of Britannia (the Roman Goddess presumably, maybe a little odd for a Christian but carry on). Edward brings news that twelve hundred Britons loyal to Alfred are camped nearby and awaiting his command. Emma and Corrin now realise the true identity of their guests as Alfred departs for battle. When news of his victory reaches them, all rejoice. Edward praises the return of British values. Alfred, exhorts his people: "Britons, proceed, the subject deep command, awe with your navies ev'ry hostile land". In response, all sing "Rule Britania", an ode in honour of Great Britain.
Can you not see what is staring at you there? Scotland has never been part of a British nation. The whole idea of Britain never existed in any reality outside of political fabrication, outside a court to please a King.
Note that Trump lends his own campaign money (which it spends leasing property from him among other things), so paying back its debts often means giving money directly to Donald Trump.
See also:
https://twitter.com/rickhasen/status/1324825242716446725
Scots themselves voted 55% to stay in the Union in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum
As I recall, the referendum was on Scotland becoming an independent country, and the question of there being a new referendum (or not) was not decided at all by voters that day.
Can you be part of a nation and not share the same language?
Can you have members of a Nation outside its borders?
Does the nation have a border or are you a member through culture?
if ScotRef2 goes ahead, who is entitled to vote, the Scottish Nation which straddles borders and is anywhere in the world?
To what degree minorities have to assimilate to culture to have membership and rights?
What about people without a common territory or economic life, who do not have material prerequisites to form a separate nationstate?
Several of your premises are crazed, e.g. Scotland as a "vassal state of England", and when reflected in a mirror they give an image of a crazed English counterpart (funnily enough perhaps he's dressed as a Crusader) who believes Edinburgh belongs to England because it used to be Edwin's Burgh and can cite as evidence what Edwin's men had for breakfast in Northumbria in the 7th century and how it didn't include oats.
Live in the real world, mate. Of course Scottish figures played a major role in what is called the British Empire - commanding army regiments, owning slaves, planting the Union Jack around the world, the lot of it.
Freedom Trilogy (Victoria 1, 2, and 3 from 1983 to 1984 by Antoni Ribas). The period setting used for these films is Barcelona during the First World War, throughout which Spain maintained neutrality. The Trilogy as a whole, across a series of allegorical situations are slyly built on historical accuracy concern separate national and ethnic identity of Catalonia, a film project only possible in Spain after end of the Franco era and transition period 75 to 82, enjoying a push upon boundaries of its own newly found artistic and political “freedoms”.
The language may simply sound foreign, presumably Spanish, is in fact Catalan. A language predating Spanish historically.
Not simply regarding the vibrant state of Catalan and Scottish independence movements today, but considering also electoral success of populist governments in USA and Italy, and not forgetting Brexit, themes explored in this film series, identification with community, the perception of the local distinction, centralisation versus freedom and independence, as relevant to us as ever. And never anything which can be decided once and for all. Or feelings that are parked after a once in generation vote. As they say in this film: governments change, for us everything remains the same - does this sentiment also pair nicely with, then lets “take back control?”
Take back control in this instance, regardless who sits in government in Madrid, Madrid governs Barcelona from the castle overlooking the city - so the separatists plot to blow up the castle. Blowing up the castle and the government employees may sound like terrorism to you? Yet, the castle on the hill remains home to spy’s and apparatchiks, functioning as a deepstate jackboot upon the neck of Catalan culture and its language, identity, financial and democratic independence.
So what would you do in their situation?