Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

The Trump Presidency – are we about to start the end days? – politicalbetting.com

135678

Comments

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,425

    I'm not seeing positives when I look at Trump's Middle East foreign policy.
    1. He's been utterly craven in the face of authoritarian leaders, as in general.
    2. Betrayed US allies the Kurds to Erdogan who had done so much of the ground fighting against IS.
    3. Failed to ensure that Saudi Arabia paid a price for the brutal murder of a journalist.
    4. Ceded influence in the region to Russia.
    5. Further eroded Palestinian trust in the US as an honest broker by moving the US Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.
    6. Tore up the deal with Iran solely because it was an Obama achievement.

    I'm no fan of US foreign policy over the decades, far from it, but there's no basis to say that he made things at all better.

    The positives depend on your perspective. If the US is no longer needing ME oil, then why get involved in a cesspit that eats your citizens money and lives. China and Europe depend more on ME oil so they should do their own police work.
    If the US had simply disengaged that would be one thing, but Trump has made active interventions in the Middle East that have made the situation worse, even if those interventions didn't involve armoured divisions.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Trump given a 4% chance in the final version of the Economist model, which has been very bullish on Biden throughout. G. Elliott Morris (the guy behind it) predicts the election may be effectively over as early as 9:30 EST
  • Roger said:

    kamski said:

    Thoughts on Biden:

    1) If, back in April when it was clear he would be the nominee, you'd offered me Biden being 8.4% ahead in the 538 national polling average on the eve of the election, I would have happily taken it.
    2) Warren, who was once front-runner, would in some ways have made a much better president. I have no idea if she would do better or worse than Biden against Trump. However, it might be that the Democrats have a better chance of taking the Senate with Biden running - I would take President Biden + Dem Senate over President Warren and Republican Senate.
    3) For me, the Hunter Biden influence peddling is a much worse "scandal" than Hillary Clinton using a private email server. It might be all legal, but it is legalised corruption, and it's a shame the Democrats couldn't find a candidate with a totally clean contrast with Trump's nepotism, conflict of interests, and general gangsterism. On the other hand, I'm happy that the media weren't as obsessed with Hunter Biden as they were last time with Hillary's emails.

    I know nothing about Hunter Biden's shenanigans but If you watched the BBC 2 3 part prog on Trump whatever he did was unlikely to have been as corrupt as Guiliani and Trumps attempts at 'persuading' the Ukrainian leader to dig the dirt on him or their attempts afterwards to cover their tracks by removing the whisleblower. Guiliani is amoral and poisonous
    You really need to read up on Hunter Biden Roger. Makes Trump look angelic.
    Hunter Biden might have been a significant story were it not for the Covid-19 pandemic and if the KGB had devised a more convincing provenance for the laptop. If you want to know what was on it, you've got two days before the lockdown to fly to Russia and watch Hunter's sex tapes.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13086776/hunter-biden-sex-videos-russia/
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449

    Trump seems to have shortened on BF overnight. Have I missed something?

    No idea, I just had a look on oddschecker to see if it was worth a small bet on Trump.

    Not at those prices.
    Lots of people putting in "consolation" bets on Trump to ease the pain of him winning?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Gaussian said:

    Biden has had a really grey campaign, hasn't he? Seems the only memorable moment was "Will you shut up man", and that was five weeks ago.

    How about his suggestion that black people who voted for Trump weren't really African Americans?
    Curious why you are sympathetic to Trump.
    I'm not. He's a carnival barker and wannabe strongman.

    But Biden is everything I dislike about machine politicians. And I suspect he's as corrupt AF (although not notably more than most American politicians)
    Who would you vote for Trump or Biden? Sounds like your a Trump voter.
    Marquee, Charles and Alanbrooke are all Trumptons I think.
    Fuck off am I a "Trumpton". Wouldn't have voted for either Trump or Clinton in 2016, wouldn't vote for either Trmp or Biden in 2020.

    Trump does not deserve a second term. Biden does not deserve a first. Biden is very, very lucky to be up against Trump. Against any other Republican, he barely wins 200 EC votes.

    I expect him to be President by this time tomorrow.

    I do not expect him to serve a full term.
    I wouldnt get too excited, Anabobazina is just one of those people who feels the need to conform to herd thinking. The funniest moment of the campaign was when John Lydon wrongfooted the hysteria and said he was voting Trump.
    Pretty sure you’re part of a different herd with its own set of predictable opinions. :smile:
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    nico679 said:

    stjohn said:

    A big uncertainty for me is the apparently huge amount of additional Registered Voters this election. How many are there? What % increase on last time? How come? How do they split on party lines? Is it all legit?

    It seems likely that the vast majority of Registered Voters will vote so if the numbers have truly gone up as much as is suggested then 160 million + votes does seem to be likely.

    Those who didn’t vote in 2016 and those who chose third party candidates then are breaking heavily for Biden . The Reps have narrowed the gap in voter registration in the swing states but this could be previous non affiliated who supported Trump in 2016.

    In terms of independents Biden is currently winning those although in the current polarization it’s hard to believe there’s really any true independent voters out there.
    nico. When you say the Republicans have narrowed the gap in voter registration in the swing states, do you mean there are proportionately more Republicans than Democrats registered to vote in the swing states in 2020 compared with 2016? If so, that could be hugely significant and could explain why Trump’s price is holding up in the betting.
  • Trump given a 4% chance in the final version of the Economist model, which has been very bullish on Biden throughout. G. Elliott Morris (the guy behind it) predicts the election may be effectively over as early as 9:30 EST

    That would absolutely brilliant.

    But also completely and utterly out of character for the year 2020.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Nigelb said:

    Texas results will start coming in very early:
    https://www.texastribune.org/2020/10/30/texas-election-night/
    The vast majority of the votes in Texas will be cast before Election Day. In 2016, 73% of votes were cast early. This year, that share could be higher. Most counties will report their early votes in one big batch, within about an hour of when the polls close...

    Polls close at 7pm Central time (except for a few counties an hour later), which is 1pm our time, I think.

    1am?
    Yes, of course. :smile:
  • Whatever you think of the whole "return America to a mythical bygone age of decency" schtick, you have to admit Biden's team have played that hand flawlessly. Dixville Notch Republican endorsing Biden:

    https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/1323471920117985280

    From a very obvious autocue, more like.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    Trump seems to have shortened on BF overnight. Have I missed something?

    Probably due to Nate Silver's (pbuh) last-minute hedging.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Never mind the news, the ads on Fox News are clearly aimed at morons. And keep on coming. I doubt I will be able to take this all night.
  • Trump seems to have shortened on BF overnight. Have I missed something?

    Don't follow the markets.

    I expect Trump to be shorter than that at some point in the next 24 hours.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    How else can BoZo and chums screw up the latest lockdown?

    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/1323527178773008384

    Golf is 60 hectares of outdoor space and about 100 people. Short of visiting Outer Hebrides I am not sure how to be more socially distanced in the UK.
    UK Trump supporter party?
    I think the polling was about 20% Trump fans in the UK?

    UK population density 280, so Trump UK fan population density 56, vs global land population density 52 so still more crowded than average. And many wont be wearing MASKS.
    The strongest Constituency for Trump is Grimsby at 35%, but even there 2:1 for Biden. Hull and Castle Point were not far behind.

    It would be good if the UK got some EC votes. I’d suggest 10 would be about fair.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    Thoughts on Biden:

    1) If, back in April when it was clear he would be the nominee, you'd offered me Biden being 8.4% ahead in the 538 national polling average on the eve of the election, I would have happily taken it.
    2) Warren, who was once front-runner, would in some ways have made a much better president. I have no idea if she would do better or worse than Biden against Trump. However, it might be that the Democrats have a better chance of taking the Senate with Biden running - I would take President Biden + Dem Senate over President Warren and Republican Senate.
    3) For me, the Hunter Biden influence peddling is a much worse "scandal" than Hillary Clinton using a private email server. It might be all legal, but it is legalised corruption, and it's a shame the Democrats couldn't find a candidate with a totally clean contrast with Trump's nepotism, conflict of interests, and general gangsterism. On the other hand, I'm happy that the media weren't as obsessed with Hunter Biden as they were last time with Hillary's emails.

    I know nothing about Hunter Biden's shenanigans but If you watched the BBC 2 3 part prog on Trump whatever he did was unlikely to have been as corrupt as Guiliani and Trumps attempts at 'persuading' the Ukrainian leader to dig the dirt on him or their attempts afterwards to cover their tracks by removing the whisleblower. Guiliani is amoral and poisonous
    Is there any provable link between what Hunter Biden did (or may have done) and his father? If not, why should he be accountable for the actions of his adult son?
    Sure, but the whole thing doesn't exactly smell of roses:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-54553132

    Joining the board of Burisma while his father was vice-president was obviously wrong. If we care about Trump and family's multiple conflicts of interests, then we should care about this too. Trump is obviously orders of magnitude worse, but the Democrats should be able to be really clear and clean on these issues.

  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005

    Scott_xP said:

    How else can BoZo and chums screw up the latest lockdown?

    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/1323527178773008384

    Golf is 60 hectares of outdoor space and about 100 people. Short of visiting Outer Hebrides I am not sure how to be more socially distanced in the UK.
    There's solo microlight flying, or paramotoring, or paragliding, all of which are also off the cards.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited November 2020

    Trump seems to have shortened on BF overnight. Have I missed something?

    Probably due to Nate Silver's (pbuh) last-minute hedging.
    And reported 6- and 7-figure bets on President Trump, though I am surprised the big hitters have not appeared for Biden.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,129

    Charles said:

    nichomar said:

    Every republican they have on Sky news is a repulsive lizard with no insight, most look like spivs and appear to be thicker than pig shit. They really are scared.

    Indeed, and every democrat they have on CNN is a screeching harpy.

    Truly we are blessed in this time, the end of times
    Wow. With its regular dockside analogies and this sort of stuff, it’s hard to grasp why PB attracts so few women to the site.
    Women aren't allowed to be coarse?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,129

    nichomar said:

    What happens if London Bridge falls down in the next four weeks?

    huh?
    Code for Her Majesty passing away i think.
  • IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,129

    Whatever you think of the whole "return America to a mythical bygone age of decency" schtick, you have to admit Biden's team have played that hand flawlessly. Dixville Notch Republican endorsing Biden:

    https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/1323471920117985280

    From a very obvious autocue, more like.
    Words being scripted doesn't necessarily mean they aren't heartfelt though.
  • kle4 said:

    nichomar said:

    What happens if London Bridge falls down in the next four weeks?

    huh?
    Code for Her Majesty passing away i think.
    It would never happen in an ideal world but I wonder if next year she should effectively retire/abdicate and hand over to Charles to be coronated in 2022.

    She's 95. She's done enough - more than anyone ever has. And I think she deserves to enjoy the last few years of her life with her husband in peace.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Scott_xP said:
    The best Labour figures since 2018, with a potential gain of 5 Westminster seats. We are short of a pro-Labour Welsh contributor here for balance - if you only went by PB, you'd think that Drakeford was generally despised and Labour was falling apart there.
    I was disappointed when Drakeford was elected FM to replace Carwyn at peak Corbyn.

    Drakeford has been forthright during the pandemic, although he tied himself up in knots over the non-essential selling issue, which somewhat undermined the first weekend of lockdown. Of course subsequently Johnson has made Drakeford's decision look like the work of a genius, although a particular (English?) poster took consolation in Drakeford's erroneously only calling for two weeks lockdown as opposed to Johnson's relative magnificence in calling for four. In partial defence of the Welsh Government I put that poster right.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,315
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    One can only hope tonight will be the turning of many corners,

    It's really interesting. I have a lot of friends on the right, some of them ardent Conservatives and Boris fans, who are equally strongly cheering for Joe Biden.
    It’s interesting

    Biden is weak and will be a mediocre President as well

    Trump has been quite effective at foreign policy certainly vs Obama

    But if he is re-elected it will be a sign than rampant cronyism is acceptable.

    So, despite his manifold weaknesses, it should be Biden
    Hopefully only for a year or two. President Harris has a lot more potential. The Democrats came seriously close to screwing this up again this year but Covid limitations on campaigning have done them a considerable favour. In contrast Trump has shown again what he is capable of as a campaigner in the last week or so. Had he had another couple of months of that he would probably have won.
    He may still win. I’m not at all confident that he will lose.
  • kle4 said:

    Whatever you think of the whole "return America to a mythical bygone age of decency" schtick, you have to admit Biden's team have played that hand flawlessly. Dixville Notch Republican endorsing Biden:

    https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/1323471920117985280

    From a very obvious autocue, more like.
    Words being scripted doesn't necessarily mean they aren't heartfelt though.
    The general sentiment, yes, but that was a bit too obvious. It needs a personal touch otherwise you can smell it a mile away.

    It's clearly a script he's agreed to read out by the Dems/Lincoln Project which makes it seem less sincere.
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
    Scott_xP said:
    Incredible, even allowing for the Covid factor , thats some number
  • Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    One can only hope tonight will be the turning of many corners,

    It's really interesting. I have a lot of friends on the right, some of them ardent Conservatives and Boris fans, who are equally strongly cheering for Joe Biden.
    It’s interesting

    Biden is weak and will be a mediocre President as well

    Trump has been quite effective at foreign policy certainly vs Obama

    But if he is re-elected it will be a sign than rampant cronyism is acceptable.

    So, despite his manifold weaknesses, it should be Biden
    Hopefully only for a year or two. President Harris has a lot more potential. The Democrats came seriously close to screwing this up again this year but Covid limitations on campaigning have done them a considerable favour. In contrast Trump has shown again what he is capable of as a campaigner in the last week or so. Had he had another couple of months of that he would probably have won.
    He may still win. I’m not at all confident that he will lose.
    It's time for ByeDon.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805

    kle4 said:

    Whatever you think of the whole "return America to a mythical bygone age of decency" schtick, you have to admit Biden's team have played that hand flawlessly. Dixville Notch Republican endorsing Biden:

    https://twitter.com/AndrewSolender/status/1323471920117985280

    From a very obvious autocue, more like.
    Words being scripted doesn't necessarily mean they aren't heartfelt though.
    The general sentiment, yes, but that was a bit too obvious. It needs a personal touch otherwise you can smell it a mile away.

    It's clearly a script he's agreed to read out by the Dems/Lincoln Project which makes it seem less sincere.
    Looked ok to me.
  • stjohn said:

    nico679 said:

    stjohn said:

    A big uncertainty for me is the apparently huge amount of additional Registered Voters this election. How many are there? What % increase on last time? How come? How do they split on party lines? Is it all legit?

    It seems likely that the vast majority of Registered Voters will vote so if the numbers have truly gone up as much as is suggested then 160 million + votes does seem to be likely.

    Those who didn’t vote in 2016 and those who chose third party candidates then are breaking heavily for Biden . The Reps have narrowed the gap in voter registration in the swing states but this could be previous non affiliated who supported Trump in 2016.

    In terms of independents Biden is currently winning those although in the current polarization it’s hard to believe there’s really any true independent voters out there.
    nico. When you say the Republicans have narrowed the gap in voter registration in the swing states, do you mean there are proportionately more Republicans than Democrats registered to vote in the swing states in 2020 compared with 2016? If so, that could be hugely significant and could explain why Trump’s price is holding up in the betting.
    Would it? The newly-registered Republicans were presumably already Trump voters.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,129

    kle4 said:

    nichomar said:

    What happens if London Bridge falls down in the next four weeks?

    huh?
    Code for Her Majesty passing away i think.
    It would never happen in an ideal world but I wonder if next year she should effectively retire/abdicate and hand over to Charles to be coronated in 2022.

    She's 95. She's done enough - more than anyone ever has. And I think she deserves to enjoy the last few years of her life with her husband in peace.
    Several years back David Herdson speculated they were preparing the way for a Regency.

    I like to think that, out of character, she's obsessed with records and wants to top Louis XIV.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness.

    Biden is the most likely. The Vaccine will come at some point, but may not be a panacea. Brexit is a shitshow, delivered or otherwise.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    .. then Boris has outlived his usefulness.
    I must have missed that earlier bit
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Scott_xP said:

    How else can BoZo and chums screw up the latest lockdown?

    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/1323527178773008384

    Golf is 60 hectares of outdoor space and about 100 people. Short of visiting Outer Hebrides I am not sure how to be more socially distanced in the UK.
    There's solo microlight flying, or paramotoring, or paragliding, all of which are also off the cards.
    Unless you are on your way to work
  • Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
    The last Rasmussen poll for PA yesterday (their final one) showed Biden +3 , even though thats closer than most the fact they didn't show Trump up or level at best, gives me a fair bit of confidence ,Biden will win the state, and my prediction is based on that being the key state.
    https://www.270towin.com/maps/n0Kld.png
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.
    Are.

    The data are now starting to show.

    But same question to you as to on the bus off the bus Big G - why wait? He is a solipsistic, ineffective, useless twat. Why wait to get rid of him?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390
    Well, I may as well throw my hat in the ring despite knowing much less than most here.

    Biden 406, Trump 132. An anti-Trump landslide - Biden takes Texas, Florida, Georgia, Ohio, NC, AZ, as well as the ones Clinton lost narrowly last time.

    Contrary to popular wisdom, this time round the silent majority is against Trump. The pollsters haven't quite spotted the extent of this (and nor have the gamblers). There's no great love for Biden, but people are fearful of another 4 years of Trump, and fearful of Covid. Apart from the Trumpsters, most Americans now think he's mad and dangerous and it's time for him to go.

    I desperately hope I'm right. But I've not put much money on it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,129
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    .. then Boris has outlived his usefulness.
    I must have missed that earlier bit
    He won the election, in dominating fashion, that's pretty useful to a Tory mp.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    .. then Boris has outlived his usefulness.
    I must have missed that earlier bit
    He won the election, in dominating fashion, that's pretty useful to a Tory mp.
    I was thinking of ends, not means, and of greater goods.

    Changing the subject, there doesn't seem to be any problem you can't solve by sending off for something advertised on Fox.

  • Contrary to popular wisdom, this time round the silent majority is against Trump. The pollsters haven't quite spotted the extent of this (and nor have the gamblers). There's no great love for Biden, but people are fearful of another 4 years of Trump, and fearful of Covid. Apart from the Trumpsters, most Americans now think he's mad and dangerous and it's time for him to go.

    Not saying you're wrong, but if it's there why don't you think the pollsters can see it?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    Thoughts on Biden:

    1) If, back in April when it was clear he would be the nominee, you'd offered me Biden being 8.4% ahead in the 538 national polling average on the eve of the election, I would have happily taken it.
    2) Warren, who was once front-runner, would in some ways have made a much better president. I have no idea if she would do better or worse than Biden against Trump. However, it might be that the Democrats have a better chance of taking the Senate with Biden running - I would take President Biden + Dem Senate over President Warren and Republican Senate.
    3) For me, the Hunter Biden influence peddling is a much worse "scandal" than Hillary Clinton using a private email server. It might be all legal, but it is legalised corruption, and it's a shame the Democrats couldn't find a candidate with a totally clean contrast with Trump's nepotism, conflict of interests, and general gangsterism. On the other hand, I'm happy that the media weren't as obsessed with Hunter Biden as they were last time with Hillary's emails.

    I know nothing about Hunter Biden's shenanigans but If you watched the BBC 2 3 part prog on Trump whatever he did was unlikely to have been as corrupt as Guiliani and Trumps attempts at 'persuading' the Ukrainian leader to dig the dirt on him or their attempts afterwards to cover their tracks by removing the whisleblower. Guiliani is amoral and poisonous
    You really need to read up on Hunter Biden Roger. Makes Trump look angelic.
    Even if that were true, which it isn't, Hunter Biden isn't running for President, and Donald Trump is.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381



    The best Labour figures since 2018, with a potential gain of 5 Westminster seats. We are short of a pro-Labour Welsh contributor here for balance - if you only went by PB, you'd think that Drakeford was generally despised and Labour was falling apart there.

    Short of a pro-Labour contributor from Wales? MexicanPete? ValleyBoy? I think the Jezziah also used to post from South Wales, although no more.

    You have done some cherry-picking in the article regarding the Westminster seat tally (the Westminsterr Welsh seats are to be reduced dramatically next time). However, here are some cherries I picked :)

    "The most unpopular measure was the closure of supermarket aisles selling goods deemed "non-essential". Just 30% of people said they supported the decision made by the Welsh Government to close supermarket aisles selling these items."

    Or,

    "People were also asked how much they like or dislike the political leaders. The First Minister, Mark Drakeford saw his rating out of 10 drop from 5.4 to 4.9."
    Quoted in the same paragraph as "the Jezziah", is up there with other lifetime landmarks like the birth of my children.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.

    That would require the Tories to effectively admit that they made massive mistake in electing Johnson. Now obviously everyone can see they made a mistake, but do political types like admitting mistakes?
  • kle4 said:

    nichomar said:

    What happens if London Bridge falls down in the next four weeks?

    huh?
    Code for Her Majesty passing away i think.
    It would never happen in an ideal world but I wonder if next year she should effectively retire/abdicate and hand over to Charles to be coronated in 2022.

    She's 95. She's done enough - more than anyone ever has. And I think she deserves to enjoy the last few years of her life with her husband in peace.
    "coronated" are you American?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    kle4 said:

    He won the election, in dominating fashion, that's pretty useful to a Tory mp.

    It's useful to a Brexit MP

    It's no use to a Conservative and Unionist MP, in fact it's positively toxic.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,315


    Contrary to popular wisdom, this time round the silent majority is against Trump. The pollsters haven't quite spotted the extent of this (and nor have the gamblers). There's no great love for Biden, but people are fearful of another 4 years of Trump, and fearful of Covid. Apart from the Trumpsters, most Americans now think he's mad and dangerous and it's time for him to go.

    Not saying you're wrong, but if it's there why don't you think the pollsters can see it?
    I wonder whether there aren’t in reality a lot of shy Trump voters.
  • pcb21pcb21 Posts: 1

    Trump seems to have shortened on BF overnight. Have I missed something?

    Probably due to Nate Silver's (pbuh) last-minute hedging.
    And reported 6- and 7-figure bets on President Trump, though I am surprised the big hitters have not appeared for Biden.
    It does seem quite a big move on no significant (public) news. On the other hand, the volumes seem quite a bit thinner today - ~£10k available to back Biden at 1.61 right now. Has typically been above £100k for a good week or more.
  • TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.
    Are.

    The data are now starting to show.

    But same question to you as to on the bus off the bus Big G - why wait? He is a solipsistic, ineffective, useless twat. Why wait to get rid of him?
    Unless you want to guarantee a crash out No Deal end to transition there simy isn't time to replace him this year.
  • Trump is into 6/4 generally but Betfair has a small amount of 3 (2/1 in old money) available for Yes in its thin market, Will Next President Lose Popular Vote?
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    .. then Boris has outlived his usefulness.
    I must have missed that earlier bit
    You have to see it from a Tory point of view: he's there to legitimate the final Brexit deal and because of his supposed electoral Midas touch.

    Without either of those he is nothing.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    Thoughts on Biden:

    1) If, back in April when it was clear he would be the nominee, you'd offered me Biden being 8.4% ahead in the 538 national polling average on the eve of the election, I would have happily taken it.
    2) Warren, who was once front-runner, would in some ways have made a much better president. I have no idea if she would do better or worse than Biden against Trump. However, it might be that the Democrats have a better chance of taking the Senate with Biden running - I would take President Biden + Dem Senate over President Warren and Republican Senate.
    3) For me, the Hunter Biden influence peddling is a much worse "scandal" than Hillary Clinton using a private email server. It might be all legal, but it is legalised corruption, and it's a shame the Democrats couldn't find a candidate with a totally clean contrast with Trump's nepotism, conflict of interests, and general gangsterism. On the other hand, I'm happy that the media weren't as obsessed with Hunter Biden as they were last time with Hillary's emails.

    I know nothing about Hunter Biden's shenanigans but If you watched the BBC 2 3 part prog on Trump whatever he did was unlikely to have been as corrupt as Guiliani and Trumps attempts at 'persuading' the Ukrainian leader to dig the dirt on him or their attempts afterwards to cover their tracks by removing the whisleblower. Guiliani is amoral and poisonous
    You really need to read up on Hunter Biden Roger. Makes Trump look angelic.
    If I wanted to hear about another American sleazeball I'd read Lee Child!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Scott_xP said:

    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness.

    Biden is the most likely. The Vaccine will come at some point, but may not be a panacea. Brexit is a shitshow, delivered or otherwise.
    But who replaced the blond clown? Gove, Raab, Priti or the increasingly embarrassed looking Sunak?

    I saw Philip Davies on the BBC News yesterday, and thought to myself this man personifies today's Conservative Party.
  • glw said:

    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.

    That would require the Tories to effectively admit that they made massive mistake in electing Johnson. Now obviously everyone can see they made a mistake, but do political types like admitting mistakes?
    Electing Johnson wasn't a mistake, the 2019 election result shows that.

    Whether Johnson is the right man for another election is another question.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    You have to see it from a Tory point of view: he's there to legitimate the final Brexit deal and because of his supposed electoral Midas touch.

    Without either of those he is nothing.

    Again, that's a Brexit point of view.

    From a Conservative and Unionist point of view, he's a liability.
  • Cyclefree said:




    Contrary to popular wisdom, this time round the silent majority is against Trump. The pollsters haven't quite spotted the extent of this (and nor have the gamblers). There's no great love for Biden, but people are fearful of another 4 years of Trump, and fearful of Covid. Apart from the Trumpsters, most Americans now think he's mad and dangerous and it's time for him to go.

    Not saying you're wrong, but if it's there why don't you think the pollsters can see it?
    I wonder whether there aren’t in reality a lot of shy Trump voters.
    I think there are but not enough to win.

    Without Covid and with a good economy I think he would win though. Some minority Americans have moved toward him but what's killing him is the older whites he's lost and women over Covid and his blabber.

    People will put up with blabber if the economy is good and the country largely peaceful.
  • OT my phone alarm has just gone off to wake me up. Unfortunately I've been awake and posting on here all night.
  • Biden is down by a couple of points on Sporting's ECV spread-betting market this morning where his current quote is 307-313, Trump meanwhile is at 225-231. After Biden gained some ground about 4 weeks ago, it's remarkable how stable this market has been since.
    It will be interesting to see in which direction these spreads move and to what extent when the very first results are announced.
  • Scott_xP said:

    You have to see it from a Tory point of view: he's there to legitimate the final Brexit deal and because of his supposed electoral Midas touch.

    Without either of those he is nothing.

    Again, that's a Brexit point of view.

    From a Conservative and Unionist point of view, he's a liability.
    You seem to have missed the hundreds of elected Conservative and Unionists elected at the last election.
  • glw said:

    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.

    That would require the Tories to effectively admit that they made massive mistake in electing Johnson. Now obviously everyone can see they made a mistake, but do political types like admitting mistakes?
    Political types will do what's needed to save their seats and careers and work out the mental gymnastics later.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    Jonathan said:

    Are we all enjoying the last vestiges of hope before we settle down to 8 more years of Trump?

    Yes. Electoral college tied at 269-269. Trump wins the tie break in the House 24-23.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Anyone else having problems placing bets on Betfair ?
  • Mich happening today, or just another quiet Covid spreading day?
  • TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.
    Are.

    The data are now starting to show.

    But same question to you as to on the bus off the bus Big G - why wait? He is a solipsistic, ineffective, useless twat. Why wait to get rid of him?
    I've wanted him gone for months and originally voted for Hunt, as you'd know if you'd read my posts.

    I'm postulating how the Tory party will see it and when they'll move.

    I think that's Spring/locals next year.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Jonathan said:

    Are we all enjoying the last vestiges of hope before we settle down to 8 more years of Trump?

    Followed by 32 more of Don Jnr.?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Cyclefree said:




    Contrary to popular wisdom, this time round the silent majority is against Trump. The pollsters haven't quite spotted the extent of this (and nor have the gamblers). There's no great love for Biden, but people are fearful of another 4 years of Trump, and fearful of Covid. Apart from the Trumpsters, most Americans now think he's mad and dangerous and it's time for him to go.

    Not saying you're wrong, but if it's there why don't you think the pollsters can see it?
    I wonder whether there aren’t in reality a lot of shy Trump voters.
    You do have an example of this from the 2016 Brexit referendum.

    In the days before Jo Cox's murder, Leave was winning in a good number of the polls. In the days after, the polling momentum swung and most polls showed Remain in the lead.

    In hindsight, that wasn't an actual change in opinion but it seemed a few people didn't like their names being associated with what was seen as a repulsive cause (and which many in the public eye criticised vehemently).

  • MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:




    Contrary to popular wisdom, this time round the silent majority is against Trump. The pollsters haven't quite spotted the extent of this (and nor have the gamblers). There's no great love for Biden, but people are fearful of another 4 years of Trump, and fearful of Covid. Apart from the Trumpsters, most Americans now think he's mad and dangerous and it's time for him to go.

    Not saying you're wrong, but if it's there why don't you think the pollsters can see it?
    I wonder whether there aren’t in reality a lot of shy Trump voters.
    You do have an example of this from the 2016 Brexit referendum.

    In the days before Jo Cox's murder, Leave was winning in a good number of the polls. In the days after, the polling momentum swung and most polls showed Remain in the lead.

    In hindsight, that wasn't an actual change in opinion but it seemed a few people didn't like their names being associated with what was seen as a repulsive cause (and which many in the public eye criticised vehemently).

    I find it remarkable how few US pollsters are weighting by past vote recall which would be one obvious way of testing this.
  • glw said:

    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.

    That would require the Tories to effectively admit that they made massive mistake in electing Johnson. Now obviously everyone can see they made a mistake, but do political types like admitting mistakes?
    If there is one thing the Tories are good at it is replacing leaders when they have outlived their usefulness.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Scott_xP said:

    You have to see it from a Tory point of view: he's there to legitimate the final Brexit deal and because of his supposed electoral Midas touch.

    Without either of those he is nothing.

    Again, that's a Brexit point of view.

    From a Conservative and Unionist point of view, he's a liability.
    You seem to have missed the hundreds of elected Conservative and Unionists elected at the last election.
    By name only
  • Scott_xP said:

    You have to see it from a Tory point of view: he's there to legitimate the final Brexit deal and because of his supposed electoral Midas touch.

    Without either of those he is nothing.

    Again, that's a Brexit point of view.

    From a Conservative and Unionist point of view, he's a liability.
    That's WHY he became party leader - you might not like that fact (I certainly didn't) but that was certainly the rationale.

    He won't be going anywhere until there is a Brexit deal, because otherwise one wing would cry blue murder.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:




    Contrary to popular wisdom, this time round the silent majority is against Trump. The pollsters haven't quite spotted the extent of this (and nor have the gamblers). There's no great love for Biden, but people are fearful of another 4 years of Trump, and fearful of Covid. Apart from the Trumpsters, most Americans now think he's mad and dangerous and it's time for him to go.

    Not saying you're wrong, but if it's there why don't you think the pollsters can see it?
    I wonder whether there aren’t in reality a lot of shy Trump voters.
    You do have an example of this from the 2016 Brexit referendum.

    In the days before Jo Cox's murder, Leave was winning in a good number of the polls. In the days after, the polling momentum swung and most polls showed Remain in the lead.

    In hindsight, that wasn't an actual change in opinion but it seemed a few people didn't like their names being associated with what was seen as a repulsive cause (and which many in the public eye criticised vehemently).

    There is a rather large difference, though.
    People were voting for Brexit, not the murderer. In Trump's case the repulsive thing is the candidate himself.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited November 2020

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    .. then Boris has outlived his usefulness.
    I must have missed that earlier bit
    You have to see it from a Tory point of view: he's there to legitimate the final Brexit deal and because of his supposed electoral Midas touch.

    Without either of those he is nothing.
    More likely he's there to take the rap for both - a bad Brexit and dreadful local elections.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    glw said:

    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.

    That would require the Tories to effectively admit that they made massive mistake in electing Johnson. Now obviously everyone can see they made a mistake, but do political types like admitting mistakes?
    Electing Johnson wasn't a mistake, the 2019 election result shows that.

    Electing Johnson was a mistake, his performance in office shows that.
  • Mr. Urquhart, is that true?

    They let May linger on far too long then replaced her with the only candidate who would be worse.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905

    glw said:

    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.

    That would require the Tories to effectively admit that they made massive mistake in electing Johnson. Now obviously everyone can see they made a mistake, but do political types like admitting mistakes?
    If there is one thing the Tories are good at it is replacing leaders when they have outlived their usefulness.
    They don´t seem to be very good at it at the moment.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.
    Are.

    The data are now starting to show.

    But same question to you as to on the bus off the bus Big G - why wait? He is a solipsistic, ineffective, useless twat. Why wait to get rid of him?
    Unless you want to guarantee a crash out No Deal end to transition there simy isn't time to replace him this year.
    If he is replaced promptly then there is no reason why, say, Jeremy Hunt couldn't continue the negotiations.

    But it is the principle. If you think he is bad, then you should want to get rid as soon as possible. If not, say you want to keep him.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    Thoughts on Biden:

    1) If, back in April when it was clear he would be the nominee, you'd offered me Biden being 8.4% ahead in the 538 national polling average on the eve of the election, I would have happily taken it.
    2) Warren, who was once front-runner, would in some ways have made a much better president. I have no idea if she would do better or worse than Biden against Trump. However, it might be that the Democrats have a better chance of taking the Senate with Biden running - I would take President Biden + Dem Senate over President Warren and Republican Senate.
    3) For me, the Hunter Biden influence peddling is a much worse "scandal" than Hillary Clinton using a private email server. It might be all legal, but it is legalised corruption, and it's a shame the Democrats couldn't find a candidate with a totally clean contrast with Trump's nepotism, conflict of interests, and general gangsterism. On the other hand, I'm happy that the media weren't as obsessed with Hunter Biden as they were last time with Hillary's emails.

    I know nothing about Hunter Biden's shenanigans but If you watched the BBC 2 3 part prog on Trump whatever he did was unlikely to have been as corrupt as Guiliani and Trumps attempts at 'persuading' the Ukrainian leader to dig the dirt on him or their attempts afterwards to cover their tracks by removing the whisleblower. Guiliani is amoral and poisonous
    You really need to read up on Hunter Biden Roger. Makes Trump look angelic.
    I'm not sure why someone's grown up son should tell me much about the father. What I saw on the documentary wasn't just the sleaziest STUPIDEST president of anyone's imagination but also the nastiest bunch of hoodlums outside of Godfather1. Guiliani wasn't even the worst. Steve Bannon made you want to shower.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.
    Are.

    The data are now starting to show.

    But same question to you as to on the bus off the bus Big G - why wait? He is a solipsistic, ineffective, useless twat. Why wait to get rid of him?
    I've wanted him gone for months and originally voted for Hunt, as you'd know if you'd read my posts.

    I'm postulating how the Tory party will see it and when they'll move.

    I think that's Spring/locals next year.
    Fair enough.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:




    Contrary to popular wisdom, this time round the silent majority is against Trump. The pollsters haven't quite spotted the extent of this (and nor have the gamblers). There's no great love for Biden, but people are fearful of another 4 years of Trump, and fearful of Covid. Apart from the Trumpsters, most Americans now think he's mad and dangerous and it's time for him to go.

    Not saying you're wrong, but if it's there why don't you think the pollsters can see it?
    I wonder whether there aren’t in reality a lot of shy Trump voters.
    You do have an example of this from the 2016 Brexit referendum.

    In the days before Jo Cox's murder, Leave was winning in a good number of the polls. In the days after, the polling momentum swung and most polls showed Remain in the lead.

    In hindsight, that wasn't an actual change in opinion but it seemed a few people didn't like their names being associated with what was seen as a repulsive cause (and which many in the public eye criticised vehemently).

    I find it remarkable how few US pollsters are weighting by past vote recall which would be one obvious way of testing this.
    Not going to help much with all the newly registered voters.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    On topic -

    The problem is differential turnout. Most posters here don't know anyone who would vote for Trump. Yet, he is nailed on to get at least 40%.

    Yes, the Democrats are united and fired up. The question is how fired up are the Trumpets? There seem to be a lot of very angry, very enthusiastic (even dangerously violent) Trump supporters out there. How will that turn into votes?

    On COVID

    One for MaxPB

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54786130
  • MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:




    Contrary to popular wisdom, this time round the silent majority is against Trump. The pollsters haven't quite spotted the extent of this (and nor have the gamblers). There's no great love for Biden, but people are fearful of another 4 years of Trump, and fearful of Covid. Apart from the Trumpsters, most Americans now think he's mad and dangerous and it's time for him to go.

    Not saying you're wrong, but if it's there why don't you think the pollsters can see it?
    I wonder whether there aren’t in reality a lot of shy Trump voters.
    You do have an example of this from the 2016 Brexit referendum.

    In the days before Jo Cox's murder, Leave was winning in a good number of the polls. In the days after, the polling momentum swung and most polls showed Remain in the lead.

    In hindsight, that wasn't an actual change in opinion but it seemed a few people didn't like their names being associated with what was seen as a repulsive cause (and which many in the public eye criticised vehemently).

    The place to watch there would be Michigan, which had all that stuff with the attempted kidnapping of the (popular) governor.
  • ClippP said:

    glw said:

    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.

    That would require the Tories to effectively admit that they made massive mistake in electing Johnson. Now obviously everyone can see they made a mistake, but do political types like admitting mistakes?
    If there is one thing the Tories are good at it is replacing leaders when they have outlived their usefulness.
    They don´t seem to be very good at it at the moment.
    He still is useful...they can pin brexit deal and covid response on him.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.
    Are.

    The data are now starting to show.

    But same question to you as to on the bus off the bus Big G - why wait? He is a solipsistic, ineffective, useless twat. Why wait to get rid of him?
    Unless you want to guarantee a crash out No Deal end to transition there simy isn't time to replace him this year.
    If he is replaced promptly then there is no reason why, say, Jeremy Hunt couldn't continue the negotiations.

    But it is the principle. If you think he is bad, then you should want to get rid as soon as possible. If not, say you want to keep him.
    His usefulness includes taking a bit more of the blame for the handling of Covid and Brexit before the new leader gets to take over when the worst is hopefully over.
  • TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.
    Are.

    The data are now starting to show.

    But same question to you as to on the bus off the bus Big G - why wait? He is a solipsistic, ineffective, useless twat. Why wait to get rid of him?
    I've wanted him gone for months and originally voted for Hunt, as you'd know if you'd read my posts.

    I'm postulating how the Tory party will see it and when they'll move.

    I think that's Spring/locals next year.
    I increasingly think that Boris won't fight the next election. The next election has to be by December 2024 but I would expect it to revert to spring and be April/May 2024.

    Due to the need to have an MPs' part and a members' part the best time to run a Tory leadership election is over the summer recess. That gives us summer 2021, summer 2022 and summer 2023 as possibles.

    Summer 2023 doesn't give the new PM much chance to establish themselves before the election.
    The COVID crisis may not be fully resolved by next summer.

    Therefore the best bet to me looks like summer 2022.

    The exception is if Boris has to stand down due to ill health. In this case, I would expect the MPs to pick someone as a caretaker with a proper leadership election in due course.
  • Mr. Urquhart, that does sound rather like letting the PM drive them off a cliff, and then changing drivers.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,366
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    kamski said:

    Thoughts on Biden:

    1) If, back in April when it was clear he would be the nominee, you'd offered me Biden being 8.4% ahead in the 538 national polling average on the eve of the election, I would have happily taken it.
    2) Warren, who was once front-runner, would in some ways have made a much better president. I have no idea if she would do better or worse than Biden against Trump. However, it might be that the Democrats have a better chance of taking the Senate with Biden running - I would take President Biden + Dem Senate over President Warren and Republican Senate.
    3) For me, the Hunter Biden influence peddling is a much worse "scandal" than Hillary Clinton using a private email server. It might be all legal, but it is legalised corruption, and it's a shame the Democrats couldn't find a candidate with a totally clean contrast with Trump's nepotism, conflict of interests, and general gangsterism. On the other hand, I'm happy that the media weren't as obsessed with Hunter Biden as they were last time with Hillary's emails.

    I know nothing about Hunter Biden's shenanigans but If you watched the BBC 2 3 part prog on Trump whatever he did was unlikely to have been as corrupt as Guiliani and Trumps attempts at 'persuading' the Ukrainian leader to dig the dirt on him or their attempts afterwards to cover their tracks by removing the whisleblower. Guiliani is amoral and poisonous
    You really need to read up on Hunter Biden Roger. Makes Trump look angelic.
    If I wanted to hear about another American sleazeball I'd read Lee Child!
    The problem is the ocean of money in American politics. Biden is quite ordinary in his financial behaviour. While Trump is quite extraordinary.

    The problem comes when it is considered completely fine for a politician to vote on a subject were the parties involved have donated large sums of money their campaign. Providing you do the right dance moves - perfectly legal. When you add in the you-vote-for-my-pork-i'll-vote-for-yours stuff..... Well, you get AOC voting to build a giant, over priced rocket in Alabama. Why?

    As Pres. Bartlett said "We have legalised bribery".
  • Mr. Urquhart, is that true?

    They let May linger on far too long then replaced her with the only candidate who would be worse.

    They did initially shoot and miss, but despite the rules and totally unwillingness to go, they found a way to get her out. He got them a massive majority. That was his purpose.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Pointed to that this morning.
    I've little doubt that Max will share my dismay at the apparent complete lack of plans to do anything to improve the rate of those found infected actually isolating.
    The boffins interviewed on the radio this morning were all saying they 'hoped' that people would isolate. The reality is that maybe a third of those testing positive will actually do so, unless incentives and practical help to do so are much improved.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ex minister: "[Johnson's] just seen as a dead duck, and every time they fail to deliver they just double down with a bigger promise."

    Telegraph blog

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1323541830428954624
    The piece is worth reading in full:

    https://thecritic.co.uk/whole-lotta-lockdown/

    One of the great skills in opposition is to work out what the government is going to do, and then call for it first. And you don’t have to get out of bed very early to get ahead of this government. Simply making a cup of coffee in your dressing gown gives you a strategic advantage.

    Johnson was on his feet for two and a quarter hours, and almost none of the Tory MPs who asked him questions offered wholehearted support to their leader.

    The prime minister made little effort to take on the critics behind him. This may have been an effort to be conciliatory, but it left the impression that he felt more at the mercy of events than their master. “It is only 28 days,” he said at one point.

    A prime minister with a majority of 80 is disappearing before our eyes, unable to defend his appointees, his decisions or his policies, despised by his own side and opposition alike. It is all so terribly difficult, being in government. If only someone had warned him.
    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.
    Are.

    The data are now starting to show.

    But same question to you as to on the bus off the bus Big G - why wait? He is a solipsistic, ineffective, useless twat. Why wait to get rid of him?
    Unless you want to guarantee a crash out No Deal end to transition there simy isn't time to replace him this year.
    If he is replaced promptly then there is no reason why, say, Jeremy Hunt couldn't continue the negotiations.

    But it is the principle. If you think he is bad, then you should want to get rid as soon as possible. If not, say you want to keep him.
    Oh don't be ridiculous. You think there could be a coronation for Hunt without another Tory MP putting their name forwards?

    I don't personally want Johnson gone but can see he might go in next few years. He can't go this year.

    I do want Trump replaced with Biden but I don't expect that to happen before 20/1/21.
  • Mr. Urquhart, I agree.

    Mission accomplished. Time to fire him from a giant cannon into the heart of the sun and replace him with someone vaguely competent.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2020

    ClippP said:

    glw said:

    Once Brexit is secured, Biden is elected and a vaccine is imminent then Boris has outlived his usefulness. The data is now starting to show him to be a liability with his GE2019 voters too.

    Then ditching him becomes the logical thing to do with the next big challenge - IndyRef2 - where him going may help save the Union.

    I'm thinking someone moderate who can build bridges with the US and EU, who's largely untainted by Brexit, who can govern competently for the whole Union, who understands health and who will not scare the horses.

    I'm thinking Hunt.

    That would require the Tories to effectively admit that they made massive mistake in electing Johnson. Now obviously everyone can see they made a mistake, but do political types like admitting mistakes?
    If there is one thing the Tories are good at it is replacing leaders when they have outlived their usefulness.
    They don´t seem to be very good at it at the moment.
    He still is useful...they can pin brexit deal and covid response on him.
    And midterm elections next May.

    And he's still miles better than May.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,315
    edited November 2020
    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:




    Contrary to popular wisdom, this time round the silent majority is against Trump. The pollsters haven't quite spotted the extent of this (and nor have the gamblers). There's no great love for Biden, but people are fearful of another 4 years of Trump, and fearful of Covid. Apart from the Trumpsters, most Americans now think he's mad and dangerous and it's time for him to go.

    Not saying you're wrong, but if it's there why don't you think the pollsters can see it?
    I wonder whether there aren’t in reality a lot of shy Trump voters.
    You do have an example of this from the 2016 Brexit referendum.

    In the days before Jo Cox's murder, Leave was winning in a good number of the polls. In the days after, the polling momentum swung and most polls showed Remain in the lead.

    In hindsight, that wasn't an actual change in opinion but it seemed a few people didn't like their names being associated with what was seen as a repulsive cause (and which many in the public eye criticised vehemently).

    Because most of us find Trump repulsive, there is a tendency to assume others will too and that people will not therefore vote for him. We don’t understand why many love him. Nor do we understand that many will vote for him despite disliking him personally.

    He has cleverly turned one of the criticisms made of him - that he does not follow conventions - into a strength by telling voters that he is there to serve them (unlike the conventional politicians). Regardless of whether it is true, it is an attractive message. And it may well work.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,103
    edited November 2020

    Mr. Urquhart, I agree.

    Mission accomplished. Time to fire him from a giant cannon into the heart of the sun and replace him with someone vaguely competent.

    They agree a brexit deal and we get a vaccine, then perfect time to claim he has never managed to fully recover from COVID, wants to spend more time with his new son and shuffle off to write books.

    He is so piss poor as a leader, I just can't see them letting his stagger on to the next GE as they wil lose.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    TRUMP SURGE OR SHY BIDEN?

    For reasons that escape me I have only just looked at North Carolina Party Registration change by County.

    The rise of Unaffilaited is eye popping, especially in the way it is happening.

    In Trump Counties the amount of extra Republicans and amount of extra Unaffilaited is pretty much matched 1 for 1.

    In Clinton counties Unaffiliated have exploded compared to changes in Republican and Dem votes.

    In Mecklenburgh Dems are up 24k, GOP down 2k and Unaffiliated up 55k

    In Gaston (a typical Trump county) Dems down 3.5k, GOP up 5k and Unaffiliated up 6.5k

    For me this is a fascinating question - what is the nature of the Unaffiliated in these counties.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    nichomar said:

    What happens if London Bridge falls down in the next four weeks?

    huh?
    Code for Her Majesty passing away i think.
    It would never happen in an ideal world but I wonder if next year she should effectively retire/abdicate and hand over to Charles to be coronated in 2022.

    She's 95. She's done enough - more than anyone ever has. And I think she deserves to enjoy the last few years of her life with her husband in peace.
    Several years back David Herdson speculated they were preparing the way for a Regency.

    I like to think that, out of character, she's obsessed with records and wants to top Louis XIV.
    Wasn´t that Louis XVI?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Mr. Urquhart, I agree.

    Mission accomplished. Time to fire him from a giant cannon into the heart of the sun and replace him with someone vaguely competent.

    They agree a brexit deal and we get a vaccine, then perfect time to claim he has never managed to fully recover from COVID, wants to spend more time with his new son and shuffle off to write books.
    I thought he needed to make money?
  • Cyclefree said:

    MrEd said:

    Cyclefree said:




    Contrary to popular wisdom, this time round the silent majority is against Trump. The pollsters haven't quite spotted the extent of this (and nor have the gamblers). There's no great love for Biden, but people are fearful of another 4 years of Trump, and fearful of Covid. Apart from the Trumpsters, most Americans now think he's mad and dangerous and it's time for him to go.

    Not saying you're wrong, but if it's there why don't you think the pollsters can see it?
    I wonder whether there aren’t in reality a lot of shy Trump voters.
    You do have an example of this from the 2016 Brexit referendum.

    In the days before Jo Cox's murder, Leave was winning in a good number of the polls. In the days after, the polling momentum swung and most polls showed Remain in the lead.

    In hindsight, that wasn't an actual change in opinion but it seemed a few people didn't like their names being associated with what was seen as a repulsive cause (and which many in the public eye criticised vehemently).

    Because most of us find Trump repulsive, there is a tendency to assume others will too and that people will not therefore vote for him.we don’t understand why many love him. Nor do we understand that many will vote for him despite disliking him personally.

    He has cleverly turned one of the criticisms made of him - that he does not follow conventions - into a strength by telling voters that he is there to serve them (unlike the conventional politicians). Regardless of whether it is true, it is an attractive message. And it may well work.
    It worked last time but it's stale now.

    Plus he's losing due to simple maths. He has no room to lose voters last time but he has lost some. So for every voter he lost he needed to gain a new one. Where is he gaining new ones from?
This discussion has been closed.