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The polling gets tighter and tighter in Texas yet on Betfair Biden is still a 27% chance – political

SystemSystem Posts: 11,016
edited October 2020 in General
imageThe polling gets tighter and tighter in Texas yet on Betfair Biden is still a 27% chance – politicalbetting.com

Above is the latest chart from FiveThirtyEight of the polling trend in Texas – the state with 38 ECVs which of it itself would be enough to give Biden the Presidency.

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,374
    edited October 2020
    Deep in the heart of Texas, the stars at night are big and bright.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Is this before or after Biden announced the closure of the oil industry and zero-carbon by 2025? ;)
  • Options
    Texas will remain Red at this election.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,258
    Third
  • Options
    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.
  • Options
    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    FPT.
    A legal duty to provide Online learning one day.
    But not the equipment, which was promised, to facilitate it the next.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/oct/24/englands-schools-to-receive-fewer-laptops-for-distance-learning
  • Options
    SONGS OF THE BATTLE GROUND STATES - TEXAS

    THE EYES OF TEXAS
    John Sinclair

    The Eyes of Texas are upon you,
    All the livelong day.
    The Eyes of Texas are upon you,
    You cannot get away

    Do not think you can escape them
    At night or early in the morn
    The Eyes of Texas are upon you
    Til Gabriel blows his horn
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,374
    edited October 2020
    Though there maybe an October surprise, imagine if George W. Bush comes out for Biden, absolute scenes.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited October 2020

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Not a bad as Trump's gaffe on the 545 migrant children being held in cages because they can't find their parents.
  • Options
    dixiedean said:

    FPT.
    A legal duty to provide Online learning one day.
    But not the equipment, which was promised, to facilitate it the next.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/oct/24/englands-schools-to-receive-fewer-laptops-for-distance-learning

    From the government that brought you the world beating track and trace system.


  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,374
    edited October 2020
    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    I've been playing with something similar, I think I got it as high as a 9%/Biden lead nationwide and a Trump EC victory.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    Alistair, I said a couple of days ago that I rate Trump`s chances at about 15%. What percentage would you say?
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Texas will remain Red at this election.

    On what do you base that?
  • Options

    Texas will remain Red at this election.

    On what do you base that?
    I'm not sure Joe Biden is the right candidate to turn Texas back to the Dems.
  • Options
    YET ANOTHER SONG (TSE FAVORITE) OF THE LONE STAR STATE

    DEEP IN THE HEART OF TEXAS
    June Hersey & Don Swander

    The stars at night are big and bright (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!
    The prairie sky is wide and high (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!
    The sage in bloom is like perfume (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!
    Reminds me of the one I love (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!

    The coyotes wail along the trail (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!
    The rabbits rush around the brush (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!
    The cowboys cry Ki Yippee Yi (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!
    The dawgies bawl and bawl and bawl (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!

    IMHO best version of this classic was by Dale Evans and the Muppets:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H_pzi-j_cs
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,258
    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    How many states are genuinely in the balance?

    The US system has the same fault as ours, in that only a handful of areas are going to swing the result, and campaigning or voting anywhere else is a waste of time.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited October 2020
    Repost, FPT
    welshowl said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sky confirm the English police will stop Welsh cars and if they do not have grounds to have crossed the border they will be reported to the Welsh police for prosecution

    This is massive overreaction along with restricting supermarket non essential food sales driving business to Amazon. I can buy most things on Amazon on Prime and they are here the next day

    Why the actual fuck are English police following the orders of Mark Drakeford?

    And moreover, why are they following such bloody stupid orders?
    So are they actually using ANPR (number plate recognition) or are they just seeing if your numbers plate starts with a C (I happen to have an English number plate) Either way this is complete dictatorial madness.
    It is possible that Drakeford is a Plaid Cymru double agent.

    First, the intervention of the English police (WTF) arresting Welsh people in Gloucestershire or the Forest of Dean is predictably generating huge anger in Wales.

    And second, the more punitive and costly are Drakeford's lockdowns, the more English taxpayers will baulk at picking up the bills. The comments from some English journalists on the Welsh Government are beginning to resemble the vituperation normally reserved for the Scottish Government.

    Devolution never killed anything stone-dead, it was always going to tear us apart.

    But Drakeford ... WTF .... banning the sale of books .... books of all things (as posted here yesterday by williamglenn).

    I have never heard of anything so stupid. Books are a great way to pass the time in lockdown, but we can only get them from dependable Jeff Bezos.

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.


  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited October 2020

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Not a bad as Trump's gaffe on the 545 migrant children being held in cages because they can't find their parents.
    Awful though that story is, we already knew about it and Trump managed the muddy the water by claiming Biden built them.

    Also, many people at the end of the day vote selfishly for their own interests. Hearing that the potential president in a single simple soundbitable clip say oil is going* will have far more effect on wavering voters in Texas.

    * You won't get the full context or his claim to more than replace all the jobs with renewables.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    Quite a decent-sized crown. Considering people aren’t supposed to be out and about.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,342
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Lol, Johnson and conservative values don't belong in the same sentence.

    But yes, there are two problems with Starmer's Labour; Corbynism runs deep and hasn't been totally excised, but also Starmer isn't the best cultural fit to bring red wall voters back.
    Don't blame me, I voted for Nandy.
    She is a lightweight, for the moment Starmer has Remainers and has won back LD 2019 voters, including in the North but he will not win over Red Wall Leave voters unless we go to No Deal which turns out to be devastating economically or the Tories kept free movement or compromised over fishing which is not happening, though in the latter case many of them would go to Farage
    I would hope that Starmer's strategists are looking at a plan that by-passes the Red wall. There may be ways to win in the South that avoid spending too much time chasing these lost voters in seats like Mansfield.

    Is there a path for Labour to win a majority without both Scotland & the Red Wall seats? I doubt it. (Remember the Welsh seats will be significantly reduced in number as well by the next GE).

    I think Labour must be close to maxing out the metropolitan/University seats in the South.

    They need either Scotland or Red Wall. And maybe substantial chunks of both.
    A non-Red Wall path would involve some kind of alliance with the Liberals.
    I know pb.com is infested with them, but in the real world there are not many liberals left.

    I suspect the path for Labour is more Corbyn without the Antisemites. Especially if there are large-scale economic consequences of the pandemic.

    Labour have yet to come to terms that there were **some** very electorally attractive aspects of Corbynism.

    (After all, OGH voted for him twice in a highly marginal seat 😁)
    Indeed, to most intents and purposes classical liberalism died with Cameron and Clegg and the coalition, what you are left with now is pro Brexit reasonably large state with the Boris Tories and social democracy and diluted Corbynism with Starmer Labour and Scottish social democracy with Sturgeon and the SNP.

    In fact most of the handful of classical liberals left now are mainly to be found in Ed Davey's LDs
    The problem is thus -

    - Net immigration is seen as an un-alloyed good.
    - Part of the *stated* purpose of mass immigration was to hold wages down.
    - It has succeeded in that.
    - The wages that were held down the most, were those at the bottom.
    - Because of the structure of skills shortages, upper middle class saw immigration without massive wage suppression.
    - So, if you are sitting in alt-bank finance startup in London, you are on a great wage and chatting with your new mates from every part of the globe. Living the multicultural dream....
    - The religion of infrastructure-bad - apart from trains. Sometimes. Houses are EVUL.
    - The world of sub-minimum wage jobs, with people living 4 to a room in every room in a property (bunk beds)*, is round the corner, but 200 million miles from alt-bank-guy above.

    *I went to look at a house in a nice area yesterday. The house was in exactly that style of multiple occupation. 12 beds in a nominally 4 bed house. Had a nice chat with the people living there - once they realised I wasn't going to turn them in to the immigration services.
  • Options

    Quite a decent-sized crown. Considering people aren’t supposed to be out and about.
    There has been sizeable Nigerian protests all week in London....anybody would think the pandemic is over.
  • Options
    Hey Siri, can you show me some footage of some incels.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Quite a decent-sized crown. Considering people aren’t supposed to be out and about.
    Are there really restrictions on being outside in that area?
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    How many states are genuinely in the balance?

    The US system has the same fault as ours, in that only a handful of areas are going to swing the result, and campaigning or voting anywhere else is a waste of time.
    The presidential battleground has expanded somewhat this year.

    AND even in states that are NOT competitive for the race to the White House, there are often VERY hot races for US Senate, US House, Governor and other statewide office, state legislatures and local governments. PLUS campaigns for & against ballot measures, ranging from the Mississippi state flag referendum to the Seattle bus sales tax.

    This later issue has already attracted a GREAT DEAL of interest from savvy PBers!
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited October 2020
    Texas is not that keen on Trump eg Trump won it in 2012 by less than Romney did in 2012 or McCain in did in 2008 and by far less than George W Bush did in 2000 and 2004 but it is still a pretty solid red state and he will still win it again even if he loses the election

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1319756986691497984?s=20

  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    edited October 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Texas is not that keen on Trump eg Trump won it in 2012 by less than Romney did in 2012 or McCain in did in 2008 and by far less than George W Bush did in 2000 and 2004 but it is still a pretty solid red state and he will still win it again even if he loses the election

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1319756986691497984?s=20

    I think that`s probably right
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    Repost, FPT

    welshowl said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sky confirm the English police will stop Welsh cars and if they do not have grounds to have crossed the border they will be reported to the Welsh police for prosecution

    This is massive overreaction along with restricting supermarket non essential food sales driving business to Amazon. I can buy most things on Amazon on Prime and they are here the next day

    Why the actual fuck are English police following the orders of Mark Drakeford?

    And moreover, why are they following such bloody stupid orders?
    So are they actually using ANPR (number plate recognition) or are they just seeing if your numbers plate starts with a C (I happen to have an English number plate) Either way this is complete dictatorial madness.
    It is possible that Drakeford is a Plaid Cymru double agent.

    First, the intervention of the English police (WTF) arresting Welsh people in Gloucestershire or the Forest of Dean is predictably generating huge anger in Wales.

    And second, the more punitive and costly are Drakeford's lockdowns, the more English taxpayers will baulk at picking up the bills. The comments from some English journalists on the Welsh Government are beginning to resemble the vituperation normally reserved for the Scottish Government.

    Devolution never killed anything stone-dead, it was always going to tear us apart.

    But Drakeford ... WTF .... banning the sale of books .... books of all things (as posted here yesterday by williamglenn).

    I have never heard of anything so stupid. Books are a great way to pass the time in lockdown, but we can only get them from dependable Jeff Bezos.

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.


    Yeah, sorry replied to this on the other thread.

    Yup having slept I’m more flabbergasted and angrier than yesterday. We can buy tins but not tin openers ffs! Buying a duvet is illegal if you do it down the local high st, where you’d be giving money to support local jobs. Buy a duvet from Jeff Bezos - yup fine, no problem.

    This will have zero effect on the virus, and just weaken the economy further.

  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,342

    Repost, FPT

    welshowl said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sky confirm the English police will stop Welsh cars and if they do not have grounds to have crossed the border they will be reported to the Welsh police for prosecution

    This is massive overreaction along with restricting supermarket non essential food sales driving business to Amazon. I can buy most things on Amazon on Prime and they are here the next day

    Why the actual fuck are English police following the orders of Mark Drakeford?

    And moreover, why are they following such bloody stupid orders?
    So are they actually using ANPR (number plate recognition) or are they just seeing if your numbers plate starts with a C (I happen to have an English number plate) Either way this is complete dictatorial madness.
    It is possible that Drakeford is a Plaid Cymru double agent.

    First, the intervention of the English police (WTF) arresting Welsh people in Gloucestershire or the Forest of Dean is predictably generating huge anger in Wales.

    And second, the more punitive and costly are Drakeford's lockdowns, the more English taxpayers will baulk at picking up the bills. The comments from some English journalists on the Welsh Government are beginning to resemble the vituperation normally reserved for the Scottish Government.

    Devolution never killed anything stone-dead, it was always going to tear us apart.

    But Drakeford ... WTF .... banning the sale of books .... books of all things (as posted here yesterday by williamglenn).

    I have never heard of anything so stupid. Books are a great way to pass the time in lockdown, but we can only get them from dependable Jeff Bezos.

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.


    Books - look at other online sellers. There are tons of ways to avoid Mr Bezos - and get better prices.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Texas is not that keen on Trump eg Trump won it in 2012 by less than Romney did in 2012 or McCain in did in 2008 and by far less than George W Bush did in 2000 and 2004 but it is still a pretty solid red state and he will still win it again even if he loses the election

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1319756986691497984?s=20

    Rather than specifically Trump, is it not more about the fact lots of democrat voters from places California have moved to Texas over the past 10 years, changing the demographics?
  • Options
    theenglishborntheenglishborn Posts: 162
    edited October 2020

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    State poll averages in MI, WI and PA not moved greatly, 0.4-0.7 in the last 5 days. So not showing the same tend of 2016 in MI and PA (WI had next to no polling done) that showed the narrowing 10 days from election day that gave trump the very narrow victories he gained in those three.

    That might change and we should see any movement on Monday/Tuesday as undecideds start to break and movement from the final debate. If there is no to little change then either Trump is in real trouble or the polls are even further out in those states than last time.

    If those 3 stay steady, Biden could if he wanted do a late push in TX, GA, FL, NC, AZ, IA, OH forcing Trump to defend. If they do move Biden will need to try and halt that movement. With NC and AZ still showing some if narrow down air Biden has the advantage as of today, Trump routes to victory remain few and needs a number of things to fall his way.

    Right now only the shadow of 2016 is making me nervous.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,258
    CNN: BORIS JOHNSON’S REPUTATION COLLAPSES

    Johnson's plans appear ruined. He'd wanted to use his personal enthusiasm for Brexit to instil a fresh sense of optimism that the UK's future was brighter outside the European Union. Free from the Brussels bureaucracy, Johnson's government vowed to address the UK's socio-economic imbalance that in some sense led to Brexit by "leveling up" deprived areas. He would also seek to strengthen the bond between the four nations of the UK, which had been stretched to near-breaking point amid the bitterness following the 2016 referendum. In short, the man who led the campaign that caused so much division was on a charm offensive to heal the country.

    However, 10 months on, his government is short on resources and losing good will. Johnson's opponents point to numerous errors made early in the pandemic over testing and confusing messaging over lockdowns, the highest death count in Europe and worst recession of any major economy as evidence of his failures. Worse, members of his own party fear that his lack of attention to detail and instinct for combative politics is causing a shift in the PM's public perception: From affable optimist to incompetent bully who is hopelessly out of his depth. And they worry what long-term damage this might do both to Johnson's personal mission and the brand of the Conservative party writ large.

    “ When you look at Boris's personal brand you see dramatic drop-offs in people who think he is likeable and trustworthy since the start of the pandemic. He now lags behind Keir Starmer (leader of the opposition Labour party) on almost all of those metrics," says Chris Curtis, Political Research Manager at pollster YouGov. This dip in trust is particularly toxic for Johnson when you combine it with the reputation Conservatives have in parts of the country that historically vote Labour and Johnson was able to pick up seats in last December's election -- the so-called Red Wall.

    And as the crisis continues, many of his previous supporters are increasingly skeptical that Boris Johnson was ever really the man to unite a country divided by political chaos for which he was largely responsible.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,342

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    I've been playing with something similar, I think I got it as high as a 9%/Biden lead nationwide and a Trump EC victory.
    That's starting to get into the 1992 "Only x votes different, *in exactly the right places*, and Labour would have been in power" stuff...
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    How many states are genuinely in the balance?

    The US system has the same fault as ours, in that only a handful of areas are going to swing the result, and campaigning or voting anywhere else is a waste of time.
    The presidential battleground has expanded somewhat this year.

    AND even in states that are NOT competitive for the race to the White House, there are often VERY hot races for US Senate, US House, Governor and other statewide office, state legislatures and local governments. PLUS campaigns for & against ballot measures, ranging from the Mississippi state flag referendum to the Seattle bus sales tax.

    This later issue has already attracted a GREAT DEAL of interest from savvy PBers!
    The Seattle bus sales tax? Any market on it?
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    Repost, FPT

    welshowl said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sky confirm the English police will stop Welsh cars and if they do not have grounds to have crossed the border they will be reported to the Welsh police for prosecution

    This is massive overreaction along with restricting supermarket non essential food sales driving business to Amazon. I can buy most things on Amazon on Prime and they are here the next day

    Why the actual fuck are English police following the orders of Mark Drakeford?

    And moreover, why are they following such bloody stupid orders?
    So are they actually using ANPR (number plate recognition) or are they just seeing if your numbers plate starts with a C (I happen to have an English number plate) Either way this is complete dictatorial madness.
    It is possible that Drakeford is a Plaid Cymru double agent.

    First, the intervention of the English police (WTF) arresting Welsh people in Gloucestershire or the Forest of Dean is predictably generating huge anger in Wales.

    And second, the more punitive and costly are Drakeford's lockdowns, the more English taxpayers will baulk at picking up the bills. The comments from some English journalists on the Welsh Government are beginning to resemble the vituperation normally reserved for the Scottish Government.

    Devolution never killed anything stone-dead, it was always going to tear us apart.

    But Drakeford ... WTF .... banning the sale of books .... books of all things (as posted here yesterday by williamglenn).

    I have never heard of anything so stupid. Books are a great way to pass the time in lockdown, but we can only get them from dependable Jeff Bezos.

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.


    Books - look at other online sellers. There are tons of ways to avoid Mr Bezos - and get better prices.
    Yes but the local bookshop ten minutes from me is shut by edict the Govt. I wouldn’t have to go online in the first place without Drakeford’s idiocy.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Texas is not that keen on Trump eg Trump won it in 2012 by less than Romney did in 2012 or McCain in did in 2008 and by far less than George W Bush did in 2000 and 2004 but it is still a pretty solid red state and he will still win it again even if he loses the election

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1319756986691497984?s=20

    You may be right that Texas was less "keen" on Trump than previous GOP presidential candidates.

    However, think the X-factor here is NOT keen-ness per se, but rather demographic creep, as Texas voting population becomes more diverse AND more urban/surburban. AND as the 'burbs have moved from being Republican heartlands to the Lone Star equivalent of the Red Wall in England.

    These trends, along with anti-Trumpsky sentiment, are what may see Democrats make major gains in the Texas congressional delegation AND the state legislature, where they may well win control of the State House of Reps for the first time in a generation.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    Texas is not that keen on Trump eg Trump won it in 2012 by less than Romney did in 2012 or McCain in did in 2008 and by far less than George W Bush did in 2000 and 2004 but it is still a pretty solid red state and he will still win it again even if he loses the election

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1319756986691497984?s=20

    Texas would be icing on the cake for Biden, but I don't think it will go blue this time but likely a single figure margin.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.

    Serious politicians have been trying that for over a hundred years and failing more imposingly than a Cummings education policy.

    If he succeeds in that, he will rank ahead of David Lloyd George as the most formidable Welsh politician of all time.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,342
    welshowl said:

    Repost, FPT

    welshowl said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sky confirm the English police will stop Welsh cars and if they do not have grounds to have crossed the border they will be reported to the Welsh police for prosecution

    This is massive overreaction along with restricting supermarket non essential food sales driving business to Amazon. I can buy most things on Amazon on Prime and they are here the next day

    Why the actual fuck are English police following the orders of Mark Drakeford?

    And moreover, why are they following such bloody stupid orders?
    So are they actually using ANPR (number plate recognition) or are they just seeing if your numbers plate starts with a C (I happen to have an English number plate) Either way this is complete dictatorial madness.
    It is possible that Drakeford is a Plaid Cymru double agent.

    First, the intervention of the English police (WTF) arresting Welsh people in Gloucestershire or the Forest of Dean is predictably generating huge anger in Wales.

    And second, the more punitive and costly are Drakeford's lockdowns, the more English taxpayers will baulk at picking up the bills. The comments from some English journalists on the Welsh Government are beginning to resemble the vituperation normally reserved for the Scottish Government.

    Devolution never killed anything stone-dead, it was always going to tear us apart.

    But Drakeford ... WTF .... banning the sale of books .... books of all things (as posted here yesterday by williamglenn).

    I have never heard of anything so stupid. Books are a great way to pass the time in lockdown, but we can only get them from dependable Jeff Bezos.

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.


    Books - look at other online sellers. There are tons of ways to avoid Mr Bezos - and get better prices.
    Yes but the local bookshop ten minutes from me is shut by edict the Govt. I wouldn’t have to go online in the first place without Drakeford’s idiocy.
    Yes on the whole bookshop shutting thing. I was talking about living with this stuff.

    Hopefully your local bookshop is already online on various platforms. Many small independent book shops are...
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Texas is not that keen on Trump eg Trump won it in 2012 by less than Romney did in 2012 or McCain in did in 2008 and by far less than George W Bush did in 2000 and 2004 but it is still a pretty solid red state and he will still win it again even if he loses the election

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1319756986691497984?s=20

    I think that`s probably right
    Certainly a 4% lead from a Survey Monkey poll is the clincher.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,515

    YET ANOTHER SONG (TSE FAVORITE) OF THE LONE STAR STATE

    DEEP IN THE HEART OF TEXAS
    June Hersey & Don Swander

    The stars at night are big and bright (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!
    The prairie sky is wide and high (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!
    The sage in bloom is like perfume (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!
    Reminds me of the one I love (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!

    The coyotes wail along the trail (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!
    The rabbits rush around the brush (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!
    The cowboys cry Ki Yippee Yi (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!
    The dawgies bawl and bawl and bawl (clap, clap, clap, clap)
    Deep in the heart of Texas!

    IMHO best version of this classic was by Dale Evans and the Muppets:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H_pzi-j_cs

    All that clap might put him off, though.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Stocky said:

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    Alistair, I said a couple of days ago that I rate Trump`s chances at about 15%. What percentage would you say?
    That is where I am at as well. Although given my love of dice I'd round it up to 16.6...% to make it equal to the toss of a 6 sided die.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    alex_ said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said:

    Texas is not that keen on Trump eg Trump won it in 2012 by less than Romney did in 2012 or McCain in did in 2008 and by far less than George W Bush did in 2000 and 2004 but it is still a pretty solid red state and he will still win it again even if he loses the election

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1319756986691497984?s=20

    I think that`s probably right
    Certainly a 4% lead from a Survey Monkey poll is the clincher.
    Ha Ha ... I was referring to HYUFD`s comments rather than that poll.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,342

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    State poll averages in MI, WI and PA not moved greatly, 0.4-0.7 in the last 5 days. So not showing the same tend of 2016 in MI and PA (WI had next to no polling done) that showed the narrowing 10 days from election day that gave trump the very narrow victories he gained in those three.

    That might change and we should see any movement on Monday/Tuesday as undecideds start to break and movement from the final debate. If there is no to little change then either Trump is in real trouble or the polls are even further out in those states than last time.

    If those 3 stay steady, Biden could if he wanted do a late push in TX, GA, FL, NC, AZ, IA, OH forcing Trump to defend. If they do move Biden will need to try and halt that movement. With NC and AZ still showing some if narrow down air Biden has the advantage as of today, Trump routes to victory remain few and needs a number of things to fall his way.

    Right now only the shadow of 2016 is making me nervous.
    The enormous early turn out has also baked in a lot of votes.

    https://electproject.github.io/Early-Vote-2020G/index.html says that 39.4% of 2016 turnout has already voted...

    71.2% in Texas!
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    Stocky said:

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    Alistair, I said a couple of days ago that I rate Trump`s chances at about 15%. What percentage would you say?
    That is where I am at as well. Although given my love of dice I'd round it up to 16.6...% to make it equal to the toss of a 6 sided die.
    I'd put it at half of that, equivalent to rolling 3 or less on 2d6.

    Still depressingly plausible though.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,670

    Repost, FPT

    welshowl said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sky confirm the English police will stop Welsh cars and if they do not have grounds to have crossed the border they will be reported to the Welsh police for prosecution

    This is massive overreaction along with restricting supermarket non essential food sales driving business to Amazon. I can buy most things on Amazon on Prime and they are here the next day

    Why the actual fuck are English police following the orders of Mark Drakeford?

    And moreover, why are they following such bloody stupid orders?
    So are they actually using ANPR (number plate recognition) or are they just seeing if your numbers plate starts with a C (I happen to have an English number plate) Either way this is complete dictatorial madness.
    It is possible that Drakeford is a Plaid Cymru double agent.

    First, the intervention of the English police (WTF) arresting Welsh people in Gloucestershire or the Forest of Dean is predictably generating huge anger in Wales.

    And second, the more punitive and costly are Drakeford's lockdowns, the more English taxpayers will baulk at picking up the bills. The comments from some English journalists on the Welsh Government are beginning to resemble the vituperation normally reserved for the Scottish Government.

    Devolution never killed anything stone-dead, it was always going to tear us apart.

    But Drakeford ... WTF .... banning the sale of books .... books of all things (as posted here yesterday by williamglenn).

    I have never heard of anything so stupid. Books are a great way to pass the time in lockdown, but we can only get them from dependable Jeff Bezos.

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.


    Books - look at other online sellers. There are tons of ways to avoid Mr Bezos - and get better prices.
    By all means find the book/seller cvombination on Amazon, but it's easy to find their own websites with a qucik google.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,515

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Not a bad as Trump's gaffe on the 545 migrant children being held in cages because they can't find their parents.
    Awful though that story is, we already knew about it and Trump managed the muddy the water by claiming Biden built them.

    Also, many people at the end of the day vote selfishly for their own interests. Hearing that the potential president in a single simple soundbitable clip say oil is going* will have far more effect on wavering voters in Texas.

    * You won't get the full context or his claim to more than replace all the jobs with renewables.
    Except that context is pretty clear from simple observation.
    It’s not as though the massive growth in renewables is some distant chimera in Texas; it’s been happening for a while.

    And where is Tesla building its newest factory ?
  • Options

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Not a bad as Trump's gaffe on the 545 migrant children being held in cages because they can't find their parents.
    Awful though that story is, we already knew about it and Trump managed the muddy the water by claiming Biden built them.

    Also, many people at the end of the day vote selfishly for their own interests. Hearing that the potential president in a single simple soundbitable clip say oil is going* will have far more effect on wavering voters in Texas.

    * You won't get the full context or his claim to more than replace all the jobs with renewables.
    PBers seem to be fixating on the impact of Biden's gaffe on Texas.

    BUT it could actually end up having more impact, in its crude (pun intended) formulation in Pennsylvania. Where fracking is seen by many in rust belt as a path to economic improvement if not restored properity.

    For example, in places like Beaver County in western PA, where the steel industry died a hard death decades ago, and where a big new fracking complex is being built at Monaca, PA (pronounced "Mon-ACK-ah"). It will provide only a fraction of the jobs that the steel mill did - but something is better than nothing.

    Personally think Biden will end up winning the Keystone State (and losing the Lone Star State) but certainly his malapropism did NOT help his cause in these important battlegrounds.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721



    IANAL but away from leadership, the backbench MP who is also a lawyer may have an advantage over other colleagues in being able to read and understand the legislation they are voting on. Party leaders and whips might prefer lobby fodder, of course.

    On this point, I found that detailed non-partisan scrutiny was viewed by front-benchers and civil servants alike as tiresome pettifogging. I remember pointing out a mistake in one Bill which reversed the obvious meaning of the clause. The senior clerk in the Table Office who I queried it with said "Well, thank you, but backbenchers aren't usually supposed to worry about this sort of thing - no doubt it would have been picked up later in the proceedings." One would get a similar response in Committee stages - polite acceptance in a tone of exasperated irony. If you wanted to disagree with the principle of the Bill, fine, it was accepted that that's what you were there for. But suggestions on wording to avoid problems in interpretation - I'm not talking about missing commas and suchliker but actual flaws - were seen as annoying.

    Not that it was a surprise, but much the same point was hammered home repeatedly in Isabel Hardman's book on parliament, more so among MPs than Lords (for whom I guess there's not much else to do). No one is really taught how to scrutinise legislation, no one is rewarded for trying to do so, and in fact it is actively avoided as much as possible as even attempted helpful interventions are not wanted. It won't help you get ahead in your career either.
  • Options
    This Grand Prix has the potential to turn into a bigger fiasco than the 2005 USA Grand Prix.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Not a bad as Trump's gaffe on the 545 migrant children being held in cages because they can't find their parents.
    Awful though that story is, we already knew about it and Trump managed the muddy the water by claiming Biden built them.

    Also, many people at the end of the day vote selfishly for their own interests. Hearing that the potential president in a single simple soundbitable clip say oil is going* will have far more effect on wavering voters in Texas.

    * You won't get the full context or his claim to more than replace all the jobs with renewables.
    Except that context is pretty clear from simple observation.
    It’s not as though the massive growth in renewables is some distant chimera in Texas; it’s been happening for a while.

    And where is Tesla building its newest factory ?
    You make some good points - part of the reason I think impact of Biden gaffe may be greater in Pennsylvania.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Not a bad as Trump's gaffe on the 545 migrant children being held in cages because they can't find their parents.
    Awful though that story is, we already knew about it and Trump managed the muddy the water by claiming Biden built them.

    Also, many people at the end of the day vote selfishly for their own interests. Hearing that the potential president in a single simple soundbitable clip say oil is going* will have far more effect on wavering voters in Texas.

    * You won't get the full context or his claim to more than replace all the jobs with renewables.
    Except that context is pretty clear from simple observation.
    It’s not as though the massive growth in renewables is some distant chimera in Texas; it’s been happening for a while.

    And where is Tesla building its newest factory ?
    Exactly. Over 100k Texans already work in the renewable energy sector and that number is growing annually.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,515

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    How many states are genuinely in the balance?

    The US system has the same fault as ours, in that only a handful of areas are going to swing the result, and campaigning or voting anywhere else is a waste of time.
    The presidential battleground has expanded somewhat this year.

    AND even in states that are NOT competitive for the race to the White House, there are often VERY hot races for US Senate, US House, Governor and other statewide office, state legislatures and local governments. PLUS campaigns for & against ballot measures, ranging from the Mississippi state flag referendum to the Seattle bus sales tax.

    This later issue has already attracted a GREAT DEAL of interest from savvy PBers!
    Whether or not they take Texas, Democrats will certainly pick up state house seats.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    dixiedean said:

    FPT.
    A legal duty to provide Online learning one day.
    But not the equipment, which was promised, to facilitate it the next.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/oct/24/englands-schools-to-receive-fewer-laptops-for-distance-learning

    Classic stuff.
  • Options
    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,780
    I can’t see anyway Biden wins Texas after his oil comments , it was a long shot anyway . That gaffe will hurt him there and in places like Pennsylvania with the fracking comments .

    He’s lucky that the gaffe happened after over 50 million have already voted. In better news for him the latest IBDD tracker poll shows him increasing his lead , the previous day it was 49.8 v 45.2, today 50.7 v 44.3 .
  • Options

    This Grand Prix has the potential to turn into a bigger fiasco than the 2005 USA Grand Prix.

    Is "This Grand Prix" code for Donald Trumpsky?

    IF so, who was the USA Grand Prix of 2005? Brad Pitt?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    I've been playing with something similar, I think I got it as high as a 9%/Biden lead nationwide and a Trump EC victory.
    That's starting to get into the 1992 "Only x votes different, *in exactly the right places*, and Labour would have been in power" stuff...
    Wasn't there one doing the rounds of something like 7000 votes in the right places would have seen Corbyn win in 2017?
  • Options
    Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    This Grand Prix has the potential to turn into a bigger fiasco than the 2005 USA Grand Prix.

    Did someone overtake?
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,342
    Nigelb said:

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Biden's oil "gaffe" should get ensure enough Texans hold their noses and get Trump over the line.

    Not a bad as Trump's gaffe on the 545 migrant children being held in cages because they can't find their parents.
    Awful though that story is, we already knew about it and Trump managed the muddy the water by claiming Biden built them.

    Also, many people at the end of the day vote selfishly for their own interests. Hearing that the potential president in a single simple soundbitable clip say oil is going* will have far more effect on wavering voters in Texas.

    * You won't get the full context or his claim to more than replace all the jobs with renewables.
    Except that context is pretty clear from simple observation.
    It’s not as though the massive growth in renewables is some distant chimera in Texas; it’s been happening for a while.

    And where is Tesla building its newest factory ?
    In Texas the wind industry is booming. And despite the snarky comments about retraining - a lot of the jobs are closely related to the oil industry - trucking, welding, moving heavy steel assemblies, crane work, electrical*, trench cutting....

    *A surprising amount of oil work involves electrical work.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    ydoethur said:

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.

    Serious politicians have been trying that for over a hundred years and failing more imposingly than a Cummings education policy.

    If he succeeds in that, he will rank ahead of David Lloyd George as the most formidable Welsh politician of all time.
    Well, I think Mark Drakeford will need something to show from his lockdown -- other than killing off lots of small retailers in favour of a huge, tax-avoiding multinational. (When was that Labour policy?)

    What about enforcement? Is that going to be easy?

    My friends in the South tell me that management of pubs and clubs has been very patchy across the old industrial regions. Is Mark going to be able to enforce his will or is there going to be widespread flouting?

    We need WelshOwl to report on the volume of vomit and other drunkards’ debris in Cardiff to see how things are going.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Honestly, Biden would have to break some sort of record for vote inefficiency in order to lose, not to mention the fact that a huge chunk of the electorate has already voted during the period that he's achieved his highest leads of the campaign, not to mention the fact that increased turnout almost always favours the Democrats, whereas the Republicans thrive in lower-turnout elections in which they can motivate their smaller base.

    As the Yanks say, y'all worryin' about nuthin'!
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    IanB2 said:

    CNN: BORIS JOHNSON’S REPUTATION COLLAPSES

    Johnson's plans appear ruined. He'd wanted to use his personal enthusiasm for Brexit to instil a fresh sense of optimism that the UK's future was brighter outside the European Union. Free from the Brussels bureaucracy, Johnson's government vowed to address the UK's socio-economic imbalance that in some sense led to Brexit by "leveling up" deprived areas. He would also seek to strengthen the bond between the four nations of the UK, which had been stretched to near-breaking point amid the bitterness following the 2016 referendum. In short, the man who led the campaign that caused so much division was on a charm offensive to heal the country.

    However, 10 months on, his government is short on resources and losing good will. Johnson's opponents point to numerous errors made early in the pandemic over testing and confusing messaging over lockdowns, the highest death count in Europe and worst recession of any major economy as evidence of his failures. Worse, members of his own party fear that his lack of attention to detail and instinct for combative politics is causing a shift in the PM's public perception: From affable optimist to incompetent bully who is hopelessly out of his depth. And they worry what long-term damage this might do both to Johnson's personal mission and the brand of the Conservative party writ large.

    “ When you look at Boris's personal brand you see dramatic drop-offs in people who think he is likeable and trustworthy since the start of the pandemic. He now lags behind Keir Starmer (leader of the opposition Labour party) on almost all of those metrics," says Chris Curtis, Political Research Manager at pollster YouGov. This dip in trust is particularly toxic for Johnson when you combine it with the reputation Conservatives have in parts of the country that historically vote Labour and Johnson was able to pick up seats in last December's election -- the so-called Red Wall.

    And as the crisis continues, many of his previous supporters are increasingly skeptical that Boris Johnson was ever really the man to unite a country divided by political chaos for which he was largely responsible.

    I think suggesting he was 'largely' responsible ascribes a little too much power and influence to the man. He has been a significant political figure, and that does help shape things rather than merely reflect things, but he still only stirs the pot, not created the ingredients in it.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    I've been playing with something similar, I think I got it as high as a 9%/Biden lead nationwide and a Trump EC victory.
    I'm using the projected 538 national and state totals as my starting point.

    Interestingly unless I've cocked something up totalling up 538's state forecasts I get Biden on a full percentage point less than their national forecast.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    Horrible thought. But there's snippets of hope in there for Trump.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,258
    ydoethur said:

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.

    Serious politicians have been trying that for over a hundred years and failing more imposingly than a Cummings education policy.

    If he succeeds in that, he will rank ahead of David Lloyd George as the most formidable Welsh politician of all time.
    The woman Welsh Minister on Any Questions wasn’t any better. After a long waffly answer justifying why Welsh people couldn’t replace their broken kettle at the local supermarket because it would drive business away from local shops, when asked by Mason what people should do, then, she said buy a new kettle online.
  • Options
    Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    Is the Red Wall actually the Welsh border?
  • Options
    kle4 said:



    IANAL but away from leadership, the backbench MP who is also a lawyer may have an advantage over other colleagues in being able to read and understand the legislation they are voting on. Party leaders and whips might prefer lobby fodder, of course.

    On this point, I found that detailed non-partisan scrutiny was viewed by front-benchers and civil servants alike as tiresome pettifogging. I remember pointing out a mistake in one Bill which reversed the obvious meaning of the clause. The senior clerk in the Table Office who I queried it with said "Well, thank you, but backbenchers aren't usually supposed to worry about this sort of thing - no doubt it would have been picked up later in the proceedings." One would get a similar response in Committee stages - polite acceptance in a tone of exasperated irony. If you wanted to disagree with the principle of the Bill, fine, it was accepted that that's what you were there for. But suggestions on wording to avoid problems in interpretation - I'm not talking about missing commas and suchliker but actual flaws - were seen as annoying.

    Not that it was a surprise, but much the same point was hammered home repeatedly in Isabel Hardman's book on parliament, more so among MPs than Lords (for whom I guess there's not much else to do). No one is really taught how to scrutinise legislation, no one is rewarded for trying to do so, and in fact it is actively avoided as much as possible as even attempted helpful interventions are not wanted. It won't help you get ahead in your career either.
    What NP exMP describes is pretty typical response of the kind of crapheads that infest many public institutions. They KNOW you are right, but do NOT want some young (or old) whippersnapper pointing it out.

    "Would have been picked up" my rosy red ass! Hopefully they got the distinct feeling, Nick, that your personally bull-shit detector was beeping up a storm in THEIR direction.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    Horrible thought. But there's snippets of hope in there for Trump.
    "Snippets of hope" - like when the news that FDR had died at Warm Springs gave the boys in the Führerbunker a bit of a lift in April, 1945?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    kle4 said:



    IANAL but away from leadership, the backbench MP who is also a lawyer may have an advantage over other colleagues in being able to read and understand the legislation they are voting on. Party leaders and whips might prefer lobby fodder, of course.

    On this point, I found that detailed non-partisan scrutiny was viewed by front-benchers and civil servants alike as tiresome pettifogging. I remember pointing out a mistake in one Bill which reversed the obvious meaning of the clause. The senior clerk in the Table Office who I queried it with said "Well, thank you, but backbenchers aren't usually supposed to worry about this sort of thing - no doubt it would have been picked up later in the proceedings." One would get a similar response in Committee stages - polite acceptance in a tone of exasperated irony. If you wanted to disagree with the principle of the Bill, fine, it was accepted that that's what you were there for. But suggestions on wording to avoid problems in interpretation - I'm not talking about missing commas and suchliker but actual flaws - were seen as annoying.

    Not that it was a surprise, but much the same point was hammered home repeatedly in Isabel Hardman's book on parliament, more so among MPs than Lords (for whom I guess there's not much else to do). No one is really taught how to scrutinise legislation, no one is rewarded for trying to do so, and in fact it is actively avoided as much as possible as even attempted helpful interventions are not wanted. It won't help you get ahead in your career either.
    What NP exMP describes is pretty typical response of the kind of crapheads that infest many public institutions. They KNOW you are right, but do NOT want some young (or old) whippersnapper pointing it out.

    "Would have been picked up" my rosy red ass! Hopefully they got the distinct feeling, Nick, that your personally bull-shit detector was beeping up a storm in THEIR direction.
    But it's also that MPs seem to be actively discouraged from even attempting to discover if they might be right, and get professionally punished if they do try, so most don't even bother.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    welshowl said:

    Repost, FPT

    welshowl said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sky confirm the English police will stop Welsh cars and if they do not have grounds to have crossed the border they will be reported to the Welsh police for prosecution

    This is massive overreaction along with restricting supermarket non essential food sales driving business to Amazon. I can buy most things on Amazon on Prime and they are here the next day

    Why the actual fuck are English police following the orders of Mark Drakeford?

    And moreover, why are they following such bloody stupid orders?
    So are they actually using ANPR (number plate recognition) or are they just seeing if your numbers plate starts with a C (I happen to have an English number plate) Either way this is complete dictatorial madness.
    It is possible that Drakeford is a Plaid Cymru double agent.

    First, the intervention of the English police (WTF) arresting Welsh people in Gloucestershire or the Forest of Dean is predictably generating huge anger in Wales.

    And second, the more punitive and costly are Drakeford's lockdowns, the more English taxpayers will baulk at picking up the bills. The comments from some English journalists on the Welsh Government are beginning to resemble the vituperation normally reserved for the Scottish Government.

    Devolution never killed anything stone-dead, it was always going to tear us apart.

    But Drakeford ... WTF .... banning the sale of books .... books of all things (as posted here yesterday by williamglenn).

    I have never heard of anything so stupid. Books are a great way to pass the time in lockdown, but we can only get them from dependable Jeff Bezos.

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.


    Books - look at other online sellers. There are tons of ways to avoid Mr Bezos - and get better prices.
    Yes but the local bookshop ten minutes from me is shut by edict the Govt. I wouldn’t have to go online in the first place without Drakeford’s idiocy.
    Yes on the whole bookshop shutting thing. I was talking about living with this stuff.

    Hopefully your local bookshop is already online on various platforms. Many small independent book shops are...
    Ah I see. Well yes of course there are, but where I’m coming from is, we try to spend as locally as possible without the tail wagging the dog. Local market, shops etc sort of use it or lose it I guess. Beyond that being a normal 21st C person in this country I totter off to the local supermarkets once a week or so and of course you end up buying food and all the other add ons of life as needed cleaning stuff, light bulbs, tin openers (in that case not often, true)

    Now I simply fail to see how it makes any meaningful difference to R if I buy a tin opener two aisles down from peas if I’m in the shop anyway buying peas. However, Drakeford apparently deems that the local bookshop or hardware store or whatever is a risk to R, and that to “not disadvantage” them the supermarket can’t sell “non essential” stuff either.

    So if I want a book or a tin opener, despite my desire, usual practice, and ability to buy and a willingness for people to supply me in a brief socially distanced transaction that has sod all effect on R, the Govt here has forced me to send the money, and profits of the transaction out of the local area and indeed out of Wales.

    I’m ok, Jeff Bezos and other distant folk online are ok, my local community is poorer both literally and figuratively.

    Thanks Welsh Govt.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,374
    edited October 2020
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    This Grand Prix has the potential to turn into a bigger fiasco than the 2005 USA Grand Prix.

    Did someone overtake?
    Exploding drain covers.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    kle4 said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    Horrible thought. But there's snippets of hope in there for Trump.
    "Snippets of hope" - like when the news that FDR had died at Warm Springs gave the boys in the Führerbunker a bit of a lift in April, 1945?
    Depends how big a snippet! A crack in a wall most of the time won't matter unless something else can force it wider to cause a collapse, and reason death can require a thousand cuts rather than 764, if I may mix metaphors.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.

    Serious politicians have been trying that for over a hundred years and failing more imposingly than a Cummings education policy.

    If he succeeds in that, he will rank ahead of David Lloyd George as the most formidable Welsh politician of all time.
    Well, I think Mark Drakeford will need something to show from his lockdown -- other than killing off lots of small retailers in favour of a huge, tax-avoiding multinational. (When was that Labour policy?)

    What about enforcement? Is that going to be easy?

    My friends in the South tell me that management of pubs and clubs has been very patchy across the old industrial regions. Is Mark going to be able to enforce his will or is there going to be widespread flouting?

    We need WelshOwl to report on the volume of vomit and other drunkards’ debris in Cardiff to see how things are going.
    Here in Spain they are running to catch up with this second wave but things are not improving even as the restrictions are steadily being tightened. Short of full harsh extended lockdowns I do not see anything other than muddling through here or in France, Belgium and all the rest of much of Europe. And I do not support a second full lockdown because the economy simply could not take it. There will be more deaths but probably less overall than before thanks to improved treatments and the fact that the great majority wear masks and keep their distance. It will continue to be messy until the vaccine gets rolled out and I am confident this will come and make a difference. Not a panacaea but a considerable improvement. No magic bullet I'm afraid but we are where we are.
  • Options

    This Grand Prix has the potential to turn into a bigger fiasco than the 2005 USA Grand Prix.

    Is "This Grand Prix" code for Donald Trumpsky?

    IF so, who was the USA Grand Prix of 2005? Brad Pitt?
    Well getting a non French speaking child to read out 'Grand Prix' would be a very accurate description of Donald Trump.
  • Options
    alex_ said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    How many states are genuinely in the balance?

    The US system has the same fault as ours, in that only a handful of areas are going to swing the result, and campaigning or voting anywhere else is a waste of time.
    The presidential battleground has expanded somewhat this year.

    AND even in states that are NOT competitive for the race to the White House, there are often VERY hot races for US Senate, US House, Governor and other statewide office, state legislatures and local governments. PLUS campaigns for & against ballot measures, ranging from the Mississippi state flag referendum to the Seattle bus sales tax.

    This later issue has already attracted a GREAT DEAL of interest from savvy PBers!
    The Seattle bus sales tax? Any market on it?
    Don't think so.

    Anyway, seeing as how Seattle almost always LOVES a tax, reckon that odds of failure are somewhat less than Biden winning Mississippi.
  • Options
    I am shocked, utterly shocked.

    Far right racists are donating to Trump's campaign.

    https://twitter.com/HuffPostPol/status/1319998196496695296
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    I've been playing with something similar, I think I got it as high as a 9%/Biden lead nationwide and a Trump EC victory.
    I'm using the projected 538 national and state totals as my starting point.

    Interestingly unless I've cocked something up totalling up 538's state forecasts I get Biden on a full percentage point less than their national forecast.
    I've studied the data and come to the conclusion either Biden or Trump will win.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187

    Honestly, Biden would have to break some sort of record for vote inefficiency in order to lose, not to mention the fact that a huge chunk of the electorate has already voted during the period that he's achieved his highest leads of the campaign, not to mention the fact that increased turnout almost always favours the Democrats, whereas the Republicans thrive in lower-turnout elections in which they can motivate their smaller base.

    As the Yanks say, y'all worryin' about nuthin'!

    Exactly. Biden does not lose the EC with a PV margin of anything above 4. Just not going to happen. So, unless the national polls are so wrong as to be the death of the sector, he WINS and it's all about the margin. Which I think will be big big BIG.

    Feeling so strong about this - :smile:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89fgNaZRKGc
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited October 2020
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.

    Serious politicians have been trying that for over a hundred years and failing more imposingly than a Cummings education policy.

    If he succeeds in that, he will rank ahead of David Lloyd George as the most formidable Welsh politician of all time.
    The woman Welsh Minister on Any Questions wasn’t any better. After a long waffly answer justifying why Welsh people couldn’t replace their broken kettle at the local supermarket because it would drive business away from local shops, when asked by Mason what people should do, then, she said buy a new kettle online.
    Was this Carolyn Harris MP? Possibly the thickest Welsh MP (against very stiff competition).

    The Carolyn Harris whose evidence in the malevolent prosecution of her aide was disbelieved by the jury, leading to the acquittal of her aide (Jenny Clarke). The Carolyn Harris who was accused of homophobic bullying. That Carolyn Harris.

    She actually said, on prime time radio, that the policy was to shut the big shops so that it would helps save the little shops, but people could go online.

    I think it is good for English Labour supporters to actually see the fucking abysmal standard of Labour MPs we have to put up with in Wales. And they're better than the Labour AMs, who make up the Welsh Government.
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    I've been playing with something similar, I think I got it as high as a 9%/Biden lead nationwide and a Trump EC victory.
    I'm using the projected 538 national and state totals as my starting point.

    Interestingly unless I've cocked something up totalling up 538's state forecasts I get Biden on a full percentage point less than their national forecast.
    I've studied the data and come to the conclusion either Biden or Trump will win.
    Oi, that was the my prediction that I posted on here.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Repost, FPT

    welshowl said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sky confirm the English police will stop Welsh cars and if they do not have grounds to have crossed the border they will be reported to the Welsh police for prosecution

    This is massive overreaction along with restricting supermarket non essential food sales driving business to Amazon. I can buy most things on Amazon on Prime and they are here the next day

    Why the actual fuck are English police following the orders of Mark Drakeford?

    And moreover, why are they following such bloody stupid orders?
    So are they actually using ANPR (number plate recognition) or are they just seeing if your numbers plate starts with a C (I happen to have an English number plate) Either way this is complete dictatorial madness.
    It is possible that Drakeford is a Plaid Cymru double agent.

    First, the intervention of the English police (WTF) arresting Welsh people in Gloucestershire or the Forest of Dean is predictably generating huge anger in Wales.

    And second, the more punitive and costly are Drakeford's lockdowns, the more English taxpayers will baulk at picking up the bills. The comments from some English journalists on the Welsh Government are beginning to resemble the vituperation normally reserved for the Scottish Government.

    Devolution never killed anything stone-dead, it was always going to tear us apart.

    But Drakeford ... WTF .... banning the sale of books .... books of all things (as posted here yesterday by williamglenn).

    I have never heard of anything so stupid. Books are a great way to pass the time in lockdown, but we can only get them from dependable Jeff Bezos.

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.


    Books - look at other online sellers. There are tons of ways to avoid Mr Bezos - and get better prices.
    Yes but the local bookshop ten minutes from me is shut by edict the Govt. I wouldn’t have to go online in the first place without Drakeford’s idiocy.
    Yes on the whole bookshop shutting thing. I was talking about living with this stuff.

    Hopefully your local bookshop is already online on various platforms. Many small independent book shops are...
    Ah I see. Well yes of course there are, but where I’m coming from is, we try to spend as locally as possible without the tail wagging the dog. Local market, shops etc sort of use it or lose it I guess. Beyond that being a normal 21st C person in this country I totter off to the local supermarkets once a week or so and of course you end up buying food and all the other add ons of life as needed cleaning stuff, light bulbs, tin openers (in that case not often, true)

    Now I simply fail to see how it makes any meaningful difference to R if I buy a tin opener two aisles down from peas if I’m in the shop anyway buying peas. However, Drakeford apparently deems that the local bookshop or hardware store or whatever is a risk to R, and that to “not disadvantage” them the supermarket can’t sell “non essential” stuff either.

    So if I want a book or a tin opener, despite my desire, usual practice, and ability to buy and a willingness for people to supply me in a brief socially distanced transaction that has sod all effect on R, the Govt here has forced me to send the money, and profits of the transaction out of the local area and indeed out of Wales.

    I’m ok, Jeff Bezos and other distant folk online are ok, my local community is poorer both literally and figuratively.

    Thanks Welsh Govt.
    Well yes, exactly. The "unfair on local shops" line is nonsensical. What's unfair to local shops is that they are forced to shut. But once that decision has been taken, they aren't losing any additional business by banning the supermarkets from selling the stuff as well. So it's nothing to do with fairness, and nothing really to do with public health (if it was then they would be using that argument exclusively).

    If you were worried about the damage that supermarkets do to local shops, then the politicians would have done better to put greater restrictions on them in normal times. Not when they are the only place that people can get stuff that they need NOW.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,515
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    I've been playing with something similar, I think I got it as high as a 9%/Biden lead nationwide and a Trump EC victory.
    I'm using the projected 538 national and state totals as my starting point.

    Interestingly unless I've cocked something up totalling up 538's state forecasts I get Biden on a full percentage point less than their national forecast.
    I've studied the data and come to the conclusion either Biden or Trump will win.
    Actuarial data ?
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.

    Serious politicians have been trying that for over a hundred years and failing more imposingly than a Cummings education policy.

    If he succeeds in that, he will rank ahead of David Lloyd George as the most formidable Welsh politician of all time.
    Well, I think Mark Drakeford will need something to show from his lockdown -- other than killing off lots of small retailers in favour of a huge, tax-avoiding multinational. (When was that Labour policy?)

    What about enforcement? Is that going to be easy?

    My friends in the South tell me that management of pubs and clubs has been very patchy across the old industrial regions. Is Mark going to be able to enforce his will or is there going to be widespread flouting?

    We need WelshOwl to report on the volume of vomit and other drunkards’ debris in Cardiff to see how things are going.
    I am honoured, of course, to be the Cardiff street vomit correspondent for this august site. Frankly in the rich tapestry that has been 2020, counting and assessing the consistency of pavement pizzas and their average distance from Caroline St would not be the most surprising of tasks.

    However, I’m pleased to report that most ( like all!) the establishments I walk by these days are somewhat more staid and lacking in semi digested carrots on nearby tarmac.

    I also have not been to the city centre in 2020!
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    This is my nightmare scenario, Biden getting close in places like Texas, but not getting votes where it counts.

    So Biden wins the popular vote by 7% and Trump wins the electoral college.

    I can share my spreadsheet showing you how plausible that Nightmare Scenario is.

    Spoiler: depressingly plausible.
    I've been playing with something similar, I think I got it as high as a 9%/Biden lead nationwide and a Trump EC victory.
    I'm using the projected 538 national and state totals as my starting point.

    Interestingly unless I've cocked something up totalling up 538's state forecasts I get Biden on a full percentage point less than their national forecast.
    I suspect that the individual state forecasts factor in a greater degree of non polling factors than the national forecast in aggregate.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    welshowl said:

    ydoethur said:

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.

    Serious politicians have been trying that for over a hundred years and failing more imposingly than a Cummings education policy.

    If he succeeds in that, he will rank ahead of David Lloyd George as the most formidable Welsh politician of all time.
    Well, I think Mark Drakeford will need something to show from his lockdown -- other than killing off lots of small retailers in favour of a huge, tax-avoiding multinational. (When was that Labour policy?)

    What about enforcement? Is that going to be easy?

    My friends in the South tell me that management of pubs and clubs has been very patchy across the old industrial regions. Is Mark going to be able to enforce his will or is there going to be widespread flouting?

    We need WelshOwl to report on the volume of vomit and other drunkards’ debris in Cardiff to see how things are going.
    I am honoured, of course, to be the Cardiff street vomit correspondent for this august site. Frankly in the rich tapestry that has been 2020, counting and assessing the consistency of pavement pizzas and their average distance from Caroline St would not be the most surprising of tasks.

    However, I’m pleased to report that most ( like all!) the establishments I walk by these days are somewhat more staid and lacking in semi digested carrots on nearby tarmac.

    I also have not been to the city centre in 2020!
    I lie - not since the France game in Feb.
  • Options
    Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    I've been really trying to get on board with the indignation being levelled at the Welsh government, but I can't help feeling like people are working themselves up into a bit too much of a froth about it.
    I'm fully behind the fact that there are absurdities; that is very clear to almost everyone. But at the same time, we are still in a crisis, and a few temporary privations aren't the end of the world.

    The kettle one is a great example. Some time ago I was left alone for a week without a kettle. The other half, for reasons that still elude me today, took our only kettle with on a business trip to Scotland. For a week, I had to use a pan to boil water. It wasn't ideal but it wasn't the end of the world. We often hear talk about how some people lack the Blitz spirit, or that some people are too soft and wouldn't have been able to survive when things were really tough. Well, here's the moment. If you're unlucky enough to have your kettle break today, and you absolutely can't or won't get one through an online retailer, will the walls of your mind come tumbling down?

    None of this is to say I even agree with what the Welsh government is doing. I'm only talking about the force of the reaction which, well, seems to be a blend of genuine and inflated outrage.

    I'm posting this in the knowledge that I'll be accused of being an apologist to fascism or something, so before you fly off the handle (replacement handles should be available on Amazon.co.uk for under £20), just take the time to check you are disagreeing with something I have actually said.
  • Options
    Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    This Grand Prix has the potential to turn into a bigger fiasco than the 2005 USA Grand Prix.

    Did someone overtake?
    Exploding drain covers.
    That sounds like the kind of thing that could tempt me to watch.
    (disclaimer: I'm hoping nobody was hurt)
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862

    Repost, FPT

    welshowl said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sky confirm the English police will stop Welsh cars and if they do not have grounds to have crossed the border they will be reported to the Welsh police for prosecution

    This is massive overreaction along with restricting supermarket non essential food sales driving business to Amazon. I can buy most things on Amazon on Prime and they are here the next day

    Why the actual fuck are English police following the orders of Mark Drakeford?

    And moreover, why are they following such bloody stupid orders?
    So are they actually using ANPR (number plate recognition) or are they just seeing if your numbers plate starts with a C (I happen to have an English number plate) Either way this is complete dictatorial madness.
    It is possible that Drakeford is a Plaid Cymru double agent.

    First, the intervention of the English police (WTF) arresting Welsh people in Gloucestershire or the Forest of Dean is predictably generating huge anger in Wales.

    And second, the more punitive and costly are Drakeford's lockdowns, the more English taxpayers will baulk at picking up the bills. The comments from some English journalists on the Welsh Government are beginning to resemble the vituperation normally reserved for the Scottish Government.

    Devolution never killed anything stone-dead, it was always going to tear us apart.

    But Drakeford ... WTF .... banning the sale of books .... books of all things (as posted here yesterday by williamglenn).

    I have never heard of anything so stupid. Books are a great way to pass the time in lockdown, but we can only get them from dependable Jeff Bezos.

    I wonder if, as his final act as a Plaid Cymru double agent, Drakeford could take down Welsh Labour.


    One can only hope, Labour have been as good for Wales as they were for Scotland. Tories and Labour are two cheeks of the same arse.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,988
    My money is on Trump in Texas. It is the only state where I have backed Trump.

    I really really truly hope I lose this bet. Fingers crossed.

    Mainly because it means Trump has lost big time.

    But also because I much more make up the loss on my other state bets and overall.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited October 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Honestly, Biden would have to break some sort of record for vote inefficiency in order to lose, not to mention the fact that a huge chunk of the electorate has already voted during the period that he's achieved his highest leads of the campaign, not to mention the fact that increased turnout almost always favours the Democrats, whereas the Republicans thrive in lower-turnout elections in which they can motivate their smaller base.

    As the Yanks say, y'all worryin' about nuthin'!

    Exactly. Biden does not lose the EC with a PV margin of anything above 4. Just not going to happen. So, unless the national polls are so wrong as to be the death of the sector, he WINS and it's all about the margin. Which I think will be big big BIG.

    Feeling so strong about this - :smile:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89fgNaZRKGc
    kinabalu said:

    Honestly, Biden would have to break some sort of record for vote inefficiency in order to lose, not to mention the fact that a huge chunk of the electorate has already voted during the period that he's achieved his highest leads of the campaign, not to mention the fact that increased turnout almost always favours the Democrats, whereas the Republicans thrive in lower-turnout elections in which they can motivate their smaller base.

    As the Yanks say, y'all worryin' about nuthin'!

    Exactly. Biden does not lose the EC with a PV margin of anything above 4. Just not going to happen. So, unless the national polls are so wrong as to be the death of the sector, he WINS and it's all about the margin. Which I think will be big big BIG.

    Feeling so strong about this - :smile:
    Yep, it's the last day of Gettysburg, and General Lee is launching Pickett's Charge on the Union centre. It may well be glorious, but it isn't going to work.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    I've been really trying to get on board with the indignation being levelled at the Welsh government, but I can't help feeling like people are working themselves up into a bit too much of a froth about it.
    I'm fully behind the fact that there are absurdities; that is very clear to almost everyone. But at the same time, we are still in a crisis, and a few temporary privations aren't the end of the world.

    The kettle one is a great example. Some time ago I was left alone for a week without a kettle. The other half, for reasons that still elude me today, took our only kettle with on a business trip to Scotland. For a week, I had to use a pan to boil water. It wasn't ideal but it wasn't the end of the world. We often hear talk about how some people lack the Blitz spirit, or that some people are too soft and wouldn't have been able to survive when things were really tough. Well, here's the moment. If you're unlucky enough to have your kettle break today, and you absolutely can't or won't get one through an online retailer, will the walls of your mind come tumbling down?

    None of this is to say I even agree with what the Welsh government is doing. I'm only talking about the force of the reaction which, well, seems to be a blend of genuine and inflated outrage.

    I'm posting this in the knowledge that I'll be accused of being an apologist to fascism or something, so before you fly off the handle (replacement handles should be available on Amazon.co.uk for under £20), just take the time to check you are disagreeing with something I have actually said.

    The interesting thing will be if they DON'T lift the restrictions on Nov 3rd.

    But frankly there are all sorts of things that have been deemed "non-essential" that actually people do on occasion need quite urgently. Often due to bad planning. Waiting 2-3 days for it to come through on line isn't even a solution to this. Obviously often they don't REALLY need it. But bear in mind that the official line from the Welsh Govt appears to be that these particular restrictions (supermarkets and non-essential supplies) are not being primarily done for public health purposes. If they are not there for public health purposes then the arguments for them become easily challengeable. Without people worrying about being shouted down by the "BUT IT WILL SAVE LIVES" brigade.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    edited October 2020
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    I've been really trying to get on board with the indignation being levelled at the Welsh government, but I can't help feeling like people are working themselves up into a bit too much of a froth about it.
    I'm fully behind the fact that there are absurdities; that is very clear to almost everyone. But at the same time, we are still in a crisis, and a few temporary privations aren't the end of the world.

    The kettle one is a great example. Some time ago I was left alone for a week without a kettle. The other half, for reasons that still elude me today, took our only kettle with on a business trip to Scotland. For a week, I had to use a pan to boil water. It wasn't ideal but it wasn't the end of the world. We often hear talk about how some people lack the Blitz spirit, or that some people are too soft and wouldn't have been able to survive when things were really tough. Well, here's the moment. If you're unlucky enough to have your kettle break today, and you absolutely can't or won't get one through an online retailer, will the walls of your mind come tumbling down?

    None of this is to say I even agree with what the Welsh government is doing. I'm only talking about the force of the reaction which, well, seems to be a blend of genuine and inflated outrage.

    I'm posting this in the knowledge that I'll be accused of being an apologist to fascism or something, so before you fly off the handle (replacement handles should be available on Amazon.co.uk for under £20), just take the time to check you are disagreeing with something I have actually said.

    I don't think it is necessary to get outraged by the policy, and therefore not necessary to get outraged by defences of that policy, so I take the point that the restriction of purchase of non-essential goods, however nebulously defined, is in most cases really not going to be essential, even if it is a hardship, even a needless hardship. It is always the case that any major policy will have some amount of negative unforeseen consequences, and the existence of those consequences - even if minor or unrepresentative - is used to suggest the policy as a whole is a bad one, which is not always fair.

    However, whilst I do accept we are in a crisis and accept that some temporary privations are not the end of the world - we have, as a nation, already accepted quite a few more in that respect that I would have thought would be accepted, at least so quiescently - I don't think that has a major bearing on reducing criticism of the welsh policy as currently constituted, as the acceptance of privations is usually set against the purported benefits, in essence what are people being asked to suffer - in however big or small a way - for?

    And if the reason for that privation seems to be unjustified, ineffective, or outright beyond the scope of the written law, then the principle of the policy will attract a lot more derision that what may be even harsher policies which have clearer benefits. That the policy will have severe economic effects seems a given, but how it actually achieves additional health benefits than strong guidance not to make unnecessary trips, but if you are there you can buy what is on the shelves, is unclear.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Roy_G_Biv said:



    I'm fully behind the fact that there are absurdities; that is very clear to almost everyone. But at the same time, we are still in a crisis, and a few temporary privations aren't the end of the world.

    Where do you live? Where is the nearest COVID death to you?

    There is no crisis where I live. I live in a remote town where there is no COVID, and the nearest death is about 30 miles away.

    I am locked down and not allowed to travel more than a few miles from my house. (I was due to travel to England for work on Nov 1st. I won't be able to do that now).
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,515
    edited October 2020
    Barnesian said:

    My money is on Trump in Texas. It is the only state where I have backed Trump.

    I really really truly hope I lose this bet. Fingers crossed.

    Mainly because it means Trump has lost big time.

    But also because I much more make up the loss on my other state bets and overall.

    I’ve followed Mike.
    Not sure that Biden will take the state, but his chances are much better than the odds suggest.
    (And my much more substantial hedge is in the Trump EV markets on Betfair exchange.)
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Roy_G_Biv said:



    I'm fully behind the fact that there are absurdities; that is very clear to almost everyone. But at the same time, we are still in a crisis, and a few temporary privations aren't the end of the world.

    Where do you live? Where is the nearest COVID death to you?

    There is no crisis where I live. I live in a remote town where there is no COVID, and the nearest death is about 30 miles away.

    I am locked down and not allowed to travel more than a few miles from my house. (I was due to travel to England for work on Nov 1st. I won't be able to do that now).
    I thought travel for work was an allowed exception?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862
    alex_ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    I've been really trying to get on board with the indignation being levelled at the Welsh government, but I can't help feeling like people are working themselves up into a bit too much of a froth about it.
    I'm fully behind the fact that there are absurdities; that is very clear to almost everyone. But at the same time, we are still in a crisis, and a few temporary privations aren't the end of the world.

    The kettle one is a great example. Some time ago I was left alone for a week without a kettle. The other half, for reasons that still elude me today, took our only kettle with on a business trip to Scotland. For a week, I had to use a pan to boil water. It wasn't ideal but it wasn't the end of the world. We often hear talk about how some people lack the Blitz spirit, or that some people are too soft and wouldn't have been able to survive when things were really tough. Well, here's the moment. If you're unlucky enough to have your kettle break today, and you absolutely can't or won't get one through an online retailer, will the walls of your mind come tumbling down?

    None of this is to say I even agree with what the Welsh government is doing. I'm only talking about the force of the reaction which, well, seems to be a blend of genuine and inflated outrage.

    I'm posting this in the knowledge that I'll be accused of being an apologist to fascism or something, so before you fly off the handle (replacement handles should be available on Amazon.co.uk for under £20), just take the time to check you are disagreeing with something I have actually said.

    The interesting thing will be if they DON'T lift the restrictions on Nov 3rd.

    But frankly there are all sorts of things that have been deemed "non-essential" that actually people do on occasion need quite urgently. Often due to bad planning. Waiting 2-3 days for it to come through on line isn't even a solution to this. Obviously often they don't REALLY need it. But bear in mind that the official line from the Welsh Govt appears to be that these particular restrictions (supermarkets and non-essential supplies) are not being primarily done for public health purposes. If they are not there for public health purposes then the arguments for them become easily challengeable. Without people worrying about being shouted down by the "BUT IT WILL SAVE LIVES" brigade.
    If they need it quickly they should have Amazon Prime
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    alex_ said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:



    I'm fully behind the fact that there are absurdities; that is very clear to almost everyone. But at the same time, we are still in a crisis, and a few temporary privations aren't the end of the world.

    Where do you live? Where is the nearest COVID death to you?

    There is no crisis where I live. I live in a remote town where there is no COVID, and the nearest death is about 30 miles away.

    I am locked down and not allowed to travel more than a few miles from my house. (I was due to travel to England for work on Nov 1st. I won't be able to do that now).
    I thought travel for work was an allowed exception?
    I am not actually sure whether it is any work or "essential work".

    But nonetheless, I will (it seems) run the risk of being stopped by the English police after the border and have to explain and justify my journey and presumably produce evidence that it is "essential".
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,515
    This is not a story which gets written about a campaign with its shit together.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/24/trump-election-paranoia-431330

    Meanwhile, the Democrats are determined, in the words of Sen. Jon Tester, to “Run through the f---ing tape.”
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