Tories asked Starmer for a plan. He merely reiterated scientists recommendation.
Tories in meltdown 🤷♂️
Except SAGE is only viewing this from a health perspective. The government does have to consider the effect on the economy before coming to a decision.
In fact SAGE is viewing it in terms of tomorrow's problems. This is storing up a lot of serious problems for the future in terms of poverty and mental health as well as social breakdown. Apparently missing a million cancer screenings is no big deal to them.
Tories asked Starmer for a plan. He merely reiterated scientists recommendation.
Tories in meltdown 🤷♂️
Except SAGE is only viewing this from a health perspective. The government does have to consider the effect on the economy before coming to a decision.
Things are in a bad state. It’s clearly sadly an option that needs serious consideration.
Yeah, and I don't doubt it was seriously considered.
Its smart politics from SKS. Or is it - we know Red Wall Lab > Tory switchers are still backing Shagger. I get that - when you make that kind of leap you might look like a bit of a fool to switch back straight away. Are Red wallers going to back SKS saying stay home - when in a lot of places it seems "normal" still? Or back Shagger still...?
At least Starmer has committed one way or the other. I think it is fairly low risk, but you are right the Red Wall won't like it.
It does seem like the right thing to do politics aside.
The "red wall" is already in near lockdown. The change would be marginal.
But they can still bang on about their freedom being eroded by Labour. Johnsonians like doing that.
The lockdown should be as long as necessary to get the cases down.
The problem is the strong possibility that more people will die in the long-term from the effects of the lockdown than from Covid-19 itself.
Why is more people dying from the effects of lockdown than from Covid-19 a problem?
One is people being killed by our government and the other by an incurable disease. I'd say the latter would be easier for the deceased's loved ones to deal with
Tories asked Starmer for a plan. He merely reiterated scientists recommendation.
Tories in meltdown 🤷♂️
Except SAGE is only viewing this from a health perspective. The government does have to consider the effect on the economy before coming to a decision.
Things are in a bad state. It’s clearly sadly an option that needs serious consideration.
Yeah, and I don't doubt it was seriously considered.
If you want serious consideration , I am not confident that this administration is the first place to look.
PB Tories will deny it but the only thing that has worked in the UK was a lockdown. The mistake was coming out too quickly without a proper track and trace system. We can only blame Johnson for that.
Tories asked Starmer for a plan. He merely reiterated scientists recommendation.
Tories in meltdown 🤷♂️
Except SAGE is only viewing this from a health perspective. The government does have to consider the effect on the economy before coming to a decision.
Things are in a bad state. It’s clearly sadly an option that needs serious consideration.
So just teachers going to work, everything else to close?
PB Tories will deny it but the only thing that has worked in the UK was a lockdown. The mistake was coming out too quickly without a proper track and trace system. We can only blame Johnson for that.
Ok think this through for more than two seconds then. What will another lockdown achieve, given that we know there still won't be a properr track, trace and isolate system in place afterwards.
Its smart politics from SKS. Or is it - we know Red Wall Lab > Tory switchers are still backing Shagger. I get that - when you make that kind of leap you might look like a bit of a fool to switch back straight away. Are Red wallers going to back SKS saying stay home - when in a lot of places it seems "normal" still? Or back Shagger still...?
At least Starmer has committed one way or the other. I think it is fairly low risk, but you are right the Red Wall won't like it.
It does seem like the right thing to do politics aside.
They'll come round to it when the hospitals are full of dying covid patients this Christmas. It'll be far too late then, of course.
In order for it to be effective it needs Serco Test Trace and Isolate to be turned into world class service or even a bit above average in the next 3 weeks when it hasnt managed that in last 6 months.
Tories asked Starmer for a plan. He merely reiterated scientists recommendation.
Tories in meltdown 🤷♂️
Except SAGE is only viewing this from a health perspective. The government does have to consider the effect on the economy before coming to a decision.
Things are in a bad state. It’s clearly sadly an option that needs serious consideration.
So just teachers going to work, everything else to close?
It's also I suspect (may be wrong - normally am when guessing how things will play politically) smart politics.
Crucially Keir needs to make it clear this short lockdown is to prevent a longer lockdown.
Boris is going to have to go to lockdown at some point, and now he is following Keir. And when Boris' lockdown is longer, Labour can say 'we could have prevented this and we said so at the time'.
Unfortunately, two weeks is probably not long enough now. It would likely have been sufficient if implemented promptly when SAGE said so, but the virus has spread since then. Every day of delay in starting a lockdown adds multiple days to the length of lockdown needed as well as multiple deaths. We should have learned that from March/April.
Take your point but let's see. The rate of rise is slower than in March/April I think. So the delay may not be quite as costly. I note Labour said 2-3 weeks so they gave themselves some room.
PB Tories will deny it but the only thing that has worked in the UK was a lockdown. The mistake was coming out too quickly without a proper track and trace system. We can only blame Johnson for that.
And Sturgeon, Drakeford and Foster
This was a UK wide decision.
You are aware that Starmer has no say on health in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
The lockdown should be as long as necessary to get the cases down.
The problem is the strong possibility that more people will die in the long-term from the effects of the lockdown than from Covid-19 itself.
You say a strong possibility, but what is that possibility? If the epidemic goes back to the levels we saw in April where there were more than one thousand deaths a day in the UK (which also prevented treatment of other curable diseases), what are the deaths of an even greater magnitude that are triggered only through lockdown?
Is this necessarily a good thing? I'm wondering whether if people don't get flu for a year they won't have any immunity to it the future and it could be more dangerous to them when it does return.
"The WHO's special envoy on COVID-19 said they should not be used as the primary method of control.
Dr Nabarro made the statements in an interview with The Spectator.
"The only time we believe a lockdown in justified is to buy you time to reorganise, regroup, rebalance your resources; protect your health workers who are exhausted," Dr Nabarro said.
"But by and large, we'd rather not do it."
So, lockdowns are a bad thing, but needed to buy time if things existing measures aren't working and a country needs to reorganise and regroup.
Because if that is the story you're referring to, maybe "WHO have said to all leaders to stop using lockdowns" is a bit of an oversimplification. Integrity of the record and all that.
Its smart politics from SKS. Or is it - we know Red Wall Lab > Tory switchers are still backing Shagger. I get that - when you make that kind of leap you might look like a bit of a fool to switch back straight away. Are Red wallers going to back SKS saying stay home - when in a lot of places it seems "normal" still? Or back Shagger still...?
At least Starmer has committed one way or the other. I think it is fairly low risk, but you are right the Red Wall won't like it.
It does seem like the right thing to do politics aside.
They'll come round to it when the hospitals are full of dying covid patients this Christmas. It'll be far too late then, of course.
In order for it to be effective it needs Serco Test Trace and Isolate to be turned into world class service or even a bit above average in the next 3 weeks when it hasnt managed that in last 6 months.
LOL. Spoke to a self employed lifetime Labour voter today.
He is appalled at the left's lockdown solution. Applauds the Tory right for accepting that we're going to have to live with this virus, and not shutdown the economy.
I'll take a guess that there's 250 people on the Parliamentary Estate, all dialled in individually to the same call via an Internet-based (rather than local server-based) conference solution.
Its smart politics from SKS. Or is it - we know Red Wall Lab > Tory switchers are still backing Shagger. I get that - when you make that kind of leap you might look like a bit of a fool to switch back straight away. Are Red wallers going to back SKS saying stay home - when in a lot of places it seems "normal" still? Or back Shagger still...?
At least Starmer has committed one way or the other. I think it is fairly low risk, but you are right the Red Wall won't like it.
It does seem like the right thing to do politics aside.
They'll come round to it when the hospitals are full of dying covid patients this Christmas. It'll be far too late then, of course.
In order for it to be effective it needs Serco Test Trace and Isolate to be turned into world class service or even a bit above average in the next 3 weeks when it hasnt managed that in last 6 months.
Everyone *breathe*. There are no right and wrong answers, and at the moment I don't respect either party playing silly political games.
What we do know is that SAGE wanted stronger measures than were announced yesterday, and on a 3 tier scale immediately said "Very High" top tier isn't enough and an "Extremely High" tier would need to be added. So 4 tiers on a 3 tier scale - plus "Low" makes 5 tiers on a 3 tier scale. Plus local twattery where mayors and MPs get the rules fiddled just for them.
This isn't going to work. Politically or Clinically. So scrapping all of that in favour of simplicity makes sense. And that ultimately is why we will end up back in lockdown. Tier 3 will become Tier 4 and sweep across urban areas with people flaunting the chaos.
And at the end of it SKS saying "I told you". Frankly I don't want him to "win" this game. We need consensus. And we can't get it when spineless morons run the government. If we had a PM who took tough unpopular decisions and stood his ground that would be one thing. Instead Shagger has an 80 seat majority built on sand out of playing cards and the wind is blowing.
The lockdown should be as long as necessary to get the cases down.
The problem is the strong possibility that more people will die in the long-term from the effects of the lockdown than from Covid-19 itself.
You say a strong possibility, but what is that possibility? If the epidemic goes back to the levels we saw in April where there were more than one thousand deaths a day in the UK (which also prevented treatment of other curable diseases), what are the deaths of an even greater magnitude that are triggered only through lockdown?
The experts said the maximum number of deaths from Covid-19 would be around 250,000. It's entirely possible that more people than that could die from the effects of a prolonged lockdown, especially if they're not able to have treatment for conditions like cancer.
PB Tories will deny it but the only thing that has worked in the UK was a lockdown. The mistake was coming out too quickly without a proper track and trace system. We can only blame Johnson for that.
The NHS app is now full operative and I have used it in cafes and the cinema over the last week, the UK has also tested more per million than every nation on earth bar Israel, Denmark, Luxembourg, Andorra, Iceland and the UAE
"The WHO's special envoy on COVID-19 said they should not be used as the primary method of control.
Dr Nabarro made the statements in an interview with The Spectator.
"The only time we believe a lockdown in justified is to buy you time to reorganise, regroup, rebalance your resources; protect your health workers who are exhausted," Dr Nabarro said.
"But by and large, we'd rather not do it."
So, lockdowns are a bad thing, but needed to buy time if things existing measures aren't working and a country needs to reorganise and regroup.
Because if that is the story you're referring to, maybe "WHO have said to all leaders to stop using lockdowns" is a bit of an oversimplification. Integrity of the record and all that.
So the Tories go into meltdown when someone dares to suggest a way to clear up the latest mess they have allowed to develop.
If they had showed half as much interest and energy in solving the problem we might not have arrived in the shitshow we find ourselves in again.
To shut every business in England for at least three weeks, and have just teachers working?
And supermarket workers and bus/train drivers and hospital workers and care workers and takeaway workers and delivery drivers and warehouse fulfilment workers and everyone working in the food processing supply chain and port/dock workers and airport workers.
Basically just shitting on the hospitality and non food retail sector because the government hasn't figured out a way to ensure people who test positive are separated from the community.
A two or three week lockdown will achieve the square root of fuck all. I'm actually for it now and for the government to put a 14 or 21 day countdown in place and then shit on Labour and Starmer when it is shown to achieve the square root of fuck all.
The lockdown fascists are back and they are once again sitting comfortably with their office based jobs dictating to the part of the county that doesn't that their livelihoods are expendable.
LOL. Spoke to a self employed lifetime Labour voter today.
He is appalled at the left's lockdown solution. Applauds the Tory right for accepting that we're going to have to live with this virus, and not shutdown the economy.
Unfortunately, and I think it is unfortunate, Starmer is right on the epidemic facts, that doesn't pay any attention to political Left or Right. If we don't take belated and rigorous action now we will see mass death and the economy will be shut down harder. Johnson may be weak and feckless, but he is reasonably intelligent. He knows this.
The way the media were hyping this Starmer announcement up, it was like he was going to call for something truly radical. Instead he is clearly just going to attack the government and say we should follow SAGE.
No he's calling for a two week circuit breaker lockdown.
That's what I mean. SAGE proposed a 2 week circuit breaker, he is going to say we should do that. I presume he will also attack the government for sending kids back to uni, etc.
However, its pie in the sky if you think 2 week lockdown will solve the problem, it just bumps it down the road a little bit.
Two weeks is better than nothing - I would support longer personally.
I actually don't think it is. It kills business, and it gives the public false hope. The reality is if we go down the circuit breaker route, we will more than likely end up doing 2 weeks on, 2 week off for months.
That's basically what Imperial College said right back at the beginning; the adaptive triggering of supression measures (lockdown) in reponse to rising and falling ICU admission rates.
Bozo with a big majority has ended up as weak as Theresa was without one.
In a strange sense, managing this kind of situation without a majority might be easier because he wouldn't be so exposed to a divergence between his own party and the mainstream consensus.
PB Tories will deny it but the only thing that has worked in the UK was a lockdown. The mistake was coming out too quickly without a proper track and trace system. We can only blame Johnson for that.
The NHS app is now full operative and I have used it in cafes and the cinema over the last week, the UK has also tested more per million than every nation on earth bar Israel, Denmark, Luxembourg, Andorra, Iceland and the UAE
Everyone *breathe*. There are no right and wrong answers, and at the moment I don't respect either party playing silly political games.
What we do know is that SAGE wanted stronger measures than were announced yesterday, and on a 3 tier scale immediately said "Very High" top tier isn't enough and an "Extremely High" tier would need to be added. So 4 tiers on a 3 tier scale - plus "Low" makes 5 tiers on a 3 tier scale. Plus local twattery where mayors and MPs get the rules fiddled just for them.
This isn't going to work. Politically or Clinically. So scrapping all of that in favour of simplicity makes sense. And that ultimately is why we will end up back in lockdown. Tier 3 will become Tier 4 and sweep across urban areas with people flaunting the chaos.
And at the end of it SKS saying "I told you". Frankly I don't want him to "win" this game. We need consensus. And we can't get it when spineless morons run the government. If we had a PM who took tough unpopular decisions and stood his ground that would be one thing. Instead Shagger has an 80 seat majority built on sand out of playing cards and the wind is blowing.
The political reason behind my feeling that Starmer has made a rare error of commission here (his last one was the BLM kneel, IMO - he tends to make more errors of ommision) is that down in the South we are in a pretty good position right now. The idea of a two week nationwide circuit breaker, with associated magic money tree costs, in Torridge, for example, would be crackers. Similar in small midland towns, presumably.
These are the sort of places where Labour need to gain ground OR they need the Lib Dems to gain ground. Instead, they're sending voters to the (relatively) sound money economics of the Conservatives yet again.
PB Tories will deny it but the only thing that has worked in the UK was a lockdown. The mistake was coming out too quickly without a proper track and trace system. We can only blame Johnson for that.
The NHS app is now full operative and I have used it in cafes and the cinema over the last week, the UK has also tested more per million than every nation on earth bar Israel, Denmark, Luxembourg, Andorra, Iceland and the UAE
Well indeed. He's the MP for Bolton West. Who campaigned for Bolton to be excluded from the GM restrictions. Strongly implied it was all Asians. Then saw cases rocket. Not just amongst Asians. Now thinks restrictions don't work. Fails to explain what does.
PB Tories will deny it but the only thing that has worked in the UK was a lockdown. The mistake was coming out too quickly without a proper track and trace system. We can only blame Johnson for that.
The NHS app is now full operative and I have used it in cafes and the cinema over the last week, the UK has also tested more per million than every nation on earth bar Israel, Denmark, Luxembourg, Andorra, Iceland and the UAE
Who could have guessed starting with one arm tied behind your back (in terms of the bluetooth tech) was going to make this at best incredibly difficult. But nobody will agree to a South Korean style system in the West.
PB Tories will deny it but the only thing that has worked in the UK was a lockdown. The mistake was coming out too quickly without a proper track and trace system. We can only blame Johnson for that.
The NHS app is now full operative and I have used it in cafes and the cinema over the last week, the UK has also tested more per million than every nation on earth bar Israel, Denmark, Luxembourg, Andorra, Iceland and the UAE
How many alerts leading to concrete actions to stem the spread of the virus has it achieved?
Plenty, you are alerted if anyone is isolating with symptoms who was in a public location you were at the same time
You do realise that we need to have much higher usage of the app in order for it to be useful? Do we have official numbers on how many million active users it has?
LOL. Spoke to a self employed lifetime Labour voter today.
He is appalled at the left's lockdown solution. Applauds the Tory right for accepting that we're going to have to live with this virus, and not shutdown the economy.
Unfortunately, and I think it is unfortunate, Starmer is right on the epidemic facts, that doesn't pay any attention to political Left or Right. If we don't take belated and rigorous action now we will see mass death and the economy will be shut down harder. Johnson may be weak and feckless, but he is reasonably intelligent. He knows this.
Nationwide lockdown (however short, and 2 weeks wouldn't be enough IMO) is a nonsense when large parts of the country have almost no cases....
Well indeed. He's the MP for Bolton West. Who campaigned for Bolton to be excluded from the GM restrictions. Strongly implied it was all Asians. Then saw cases rocket. Not just amongst Asians. Now thinks restrictions don't work. Fails to explain what does.
On the upside, it would bankrupt the country quicker than the tory plan....so.....
Starmer talks as if a circuit breaker will resolve covid
And what happens after three weeks
What is a "circuit breaker" lockdown? All businesses to shut? What happens to students at UNI? What happens to public transport? etc etc
Circuit breaker is closing businesses across the England for 3 weeks at least while Scotland and Wales continue on a tier basis
It is a completely mad idea
Where is SAGE's evidence that a 2 or 3 week break will reduce R sufficiently?
And why has Nicola Sturgeon not implemented it
The "2 week circuit breaker proper lockdown" thing has been doing the rounds in Scotland for a good few weeks, never entirely denied by the Scottish Government and discussion of it has leaked at certain moments.
My guess is Sturgeon wanted to do it when SAGE suggested it, but without Boris immediately doing the same for England she couldn't do it purely from the financial side of e.g. furlough or whatever the replacement is/was. So the semi sort of partial shutdown depending on your alcohol license, which didn't really make much sense, was the result. The arguments were all simultaneously "we need to shut places down so people can't congregate, we need to keep places open so lonely people can meet, and we need to balance the effect on the economy". Hence a bit of a hodge-podge of everything.
If the tier stuff had come earlier, with the additional clarity from HMG over what support there is in situations where businesses are being told to close, then the circuit breaker may have already happened.
But either way I think we can safely assume it is coming, it's just a matter of when.
Comments
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/13/amy-coney-barrett-confirmation-hearing-democrats-429172
Does anyone really believe that ?
https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1316057226826723333
https://twitter.com/CGreenUK/status/1316056810235797504
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1316057760824528901
What a Tory shitshow
Only 5?
Perhaps they need FTTH. What happened to that?
So the delay may not be quite as costly. I note Labour said 2-3 weeks so they gave themselves some room.
If they had showed half as much interest and energy in solving the problem we might not have arrived in the shitshow we find ourselves in again.
This was a UK wide decision.
You are aware that Starmer has no say on health in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
Johnson is rattled just like PB Tories!
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018767843/near-extinction-of-influenza-in-nz-as-numbers-drop-due-to-lockdown
Is this necessarily a good thing? I'm wondering whether if people don't get flu for a year they won't have any immunity to it the future and it could be more dangerous to them when it does return.
The man needs to get a grip and start playing at being Prime Minister.
Suddenly, I am starting to feel a little sorry for him.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-12/world-health-organization-coronavirus-lockdown-advice/12753688
"The WHO's special envoy on COVID-19 said they should not be used as the primary method of control.
Dr Nabarro made the statements in an interview with The Spectator.
"The only time we believe a lockdown in justified is to buy you time to reorganise, regroup, rebalance your resources; protect your health workers who are exhausted," Dr Nabarro said.
"But by and large, we'd rather not do it."
So, lockdowns are a bad thing, but needed to buy time if things existing measures aren't working and a country needs to reorganise and regroup.
Because if that is the story you're referring to, maybe "WHO have said to all leaders to stop using lockdowns" is a bit of an oversimplification. Integrity of the record and all that.
He is appalled at the left's lockdown solution. Applauds the Tory right for accepting that we're going to have to live with this virus, and not shutdown the economy.
You are turning back into a Boris fanboi, which is a shame.
What we do know is that SAGE wanted stronger measures than were announced yesterday, and on a 3 tier scale immediately said "Very High" top tier isn't enough and an "Extremely High" tier would need to be added. So 4 tiers on a 3 tier scale - plus "Low" makes 5 tiers on a 3 tier scale. Plus local twattery where mayors and MPs get the rules fiddled just for them.
This isn't going to work. Politically or Clinically. So scrapping all of that in favour of simplicity makes sense. And that ultimately is why we will end up back in lockdown. Tier 3 will become Tier 4 and sweep across urban areas with people flaunting the chaos.
And at the end of it SKS saying "I told you". Frankly I don't want him to "win" this game. We need consensus. And we can't get it when spineless morons run the government. If we had a PM who took tough unpopular decisions and stood his ground that would be one thing. Instead Shagger has an 80 seat majority built on sand out of playing cards and the wind is blowing.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Basically just shitting on the hospitality and non food retail sector because the government hasn't figured out a way to ensure people who test positive are separated from the community.
A two or three week lockdown will achieve the square root of fuck all. I'm actually for it now and for the government to put a 14 or 21 day countdown in place and then shit on Labour and Starmer when it is shown to achieve the square root of fuck all.
The lockdown fascists are back and they are once again sitting comfortably with their office based jobs dictating to the part of the county that doesn't that their livelihoods are expendable.
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1316059811428081664
Or had he moved on already?
These are the sort of places where Labour need to gain ground OR they need the Lib Dems to gain ground. Instead, they're sending voters to the (relatively) sound money economics of the Conservatives yet again.
My opinion on Boris has not changed
Fails to explain what does.
My guess is Sturgeon wanted to do it when SAGE suggested it, but without Boris immediately doing the same for England she couldn't do it purely from the financial side of e.g. furlough or whatever the replacement is/was. So the semi sort of partial shutdown depending on your alcohol license, which didn't really make much sense, was the result. The arguments were all simultaneously "we need to shut places down so people can't congregate, we need to keep places open so lonely people can meet, and we need to balance the effect on the economy". Hence a bit of a hodge-podge of everything.
If the tier stuff had come earlier, with the additional clarity from HMG over what support there is in situations where businesses are being told to close, then the circuit breaker may have already happened.
But either way I think we can safely assume it is coming, it's just a matter of when.