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Order of succession. The odds against Sir Keir Starmer being next Prime Minister – politicalbetting.

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited September 2020 in General
imageOrder of succession. The odds against Sir Keir Starmer being next Prime Minister – politicalbetting.com

Labour supporters were euphoric at the weekend with the news of the first opinion poll in over a year showing them in the lead.  Is this a temporary highpoint or the start of a trend? Might Labour be on course to win the next general election?

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,979
    edited September 2020
    First again for a hat trick of firsts (don't ask me how its a fluke).

    Oh and yes - SKS isn't the next PM the Tories will be replacing Boris some point in the next 12 months.
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    The tories do not really fear Starmer. What they fear is a concerted, well organised and well funded attack from the right.

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    eek said:

    First again for a hat trick of firsts (don't ask me how its a fluke).

    Oh and yes - SKS isn't the next PM the Tories will be replacing Boris some point in the next 12 months.

    It's only because I can't post to threads until someone else has.
    I blame @rcs1000 :smile:
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    If polling comes out showing Labour has a sustained lead against the Tories under Boris but the Tories would retake that lead under Sunak then there is a high chance that Sunak would become PM before the next general election certainly
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    The twelfth of never
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,394
    Well, at the moment, the only way to combat COVI19 is restrictions on interactions between people.

    What restrictions are required? is the question. Unless you belong to the party-like-nothing-is-happening brigade.

    Note that the "Swedish Solution" involves restrictions as well - just different ones.
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    OK, my contribution to the Shadsy Christmas Bonus fund is:

    'China Virus' £30 @ 1.73
    'Climate Change' £30@1.33
    'Law and Order' £30@1.44
    'Putin' £25@2.0

    .. but I've also sold 'China Virus' £5 a mention at 5 on Sporting Index (they have spreads on the number of times a few phrases/words are used).
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    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    Yes - it`s as I posted yesterday: the government rationale for lockdown measures has changed, from "protect the NHS and save lives - 12 weeks maximum" to "minimal deaths until a vaccine - unlimited time".
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Tory lead back up to 3% though Brexit Party vote up to 3% and Tory vote down to 41% from 44% in 2019 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1310876138449797121?s=20
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Well, at the moment, the only way to combat COVI19 is restrictions on interactions between people.

    What restrictions are required? is the question. Unless you belong to the party-like-nothing-is-happening brigade.

    Note that the "Swedish Solution" involves restrictions as well - just different ones.
    What are we combatting?

    COVID 19 is not even in the top ten of UK killers right now.

    A handful of deaths a day. Most of those who get it have no symptoms.

    Why should students have best years of their lives ruined so a person of 80 or more with two co-morbidities can eke out a few more months of life?

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited September 2020

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,394
    On the subject of the vaccine and also journalism. Why haven't these questions been asked

    - When does/did production start for each of the vaccines orders by the government?
    - What is the production rate for each vaccine?
    - What is the projected delivery time for x amount of each vaccine? - assuming production ramp ups etc, when will x amount of vaccine actually be ready?
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Stocky said:

    Yes - it`s as I posted yesterday: the government rationale for lockdown measures has changed, from "protect the NHS and save lives - 12 weeks maximum" to "minimal deaths until a vaccine - unlimited time".
    And the medical people have even moved on from a vaccine. Which we are already being told is not a silver bullet.

    Make no mistake. They will always find an excuse. We will be living like this until we decide to break out of it.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    edited September 2020
    (FPT)
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Couple of points on the back of yesterday's news that the WHO and the US are ordering up rapid antigen tests for immediate use, while we're still chuntering about a $100bn 'moonshot'.

    1. Any cheap, universally available, rapid test which is superior to diagnosis by apparent symptoms (which this emphatically is) would be useful now.
    It would, for example, cut by an order of magnitude at least all those parents seeking PCR tests for their kids with colds.
    It would also help isolate immediately those that are infected, rather than waiting a day/many days.

    2. (& this is a general point) Continuous improvement almost always beats waiting for perfection.

    Point 2 the foundation of agile development, something the government seriously struggles with. I'd rather ship a working product and improve it to the point of near perfection over the following few weeks than have nothing and try and ship a perfect product that may need years in development.
    As it stands, we might well end up ordering someone else's solution anyway, but several months later.

    And to make it worse, an imperfect test is already of great utility now.
    You two, @Nigelb and @MaxPB -

    What is your vaccine prognosis please?

    Mine for a while has been we hunker this out - law or guidance, I don't really care about that aspect, think it's overweighted - until a vaccine is rolled out next Summer. And then we can hopefully get back to life as more or less normal albeit with a different looking and screwed for a while economy and public finances.

    Is that overly optimistic do you think? Is there a good chance a vaccine is NOT the answer and we are thus FUBB for a long time?
    There's a long thread on vaccines which I linked to yesterday, and the conclusions start here:
    https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1310426174091333633

    Back to normal next summer is probably a bit optimistic (not utterly impossible).
    On the other hand, the UK seems better provided with contracted supplies of various alternatives than most other countries, so we will be ahead of the rest of the world.

    A companion of mass, cheap antigen testing (which I think is more immediately significant than vaccines) followed by large scale vaccine rollout starting next year (and, FWIW, I have a fairly high degree of confidence that at least one of the vaccines will prove very effective) ought to see a return to normal(ish) life next year.

    And remember that the better the coverage of your testing, the better targeted the initial vaccination program will be (it will take quite some time to vaccinate everyone).
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    Stocky said:

    Yes - it`s as I posted yesterday: the government rationale for lockdown measures has changed, from "protect the NHS and save lives - 12 weeks maximum" to "minimal deaths until a vaccine - unlimited time".
    Yep. No discussion. No debate with our elected representatives. Completely different strategy.

    Indeed, may even be "minimal cases" rather than "deaths", where cases actually means positive test result.
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    HYUFD said:

    Tory lead back up to 3% though Brexit Party vote up to 3% and Tory vote down to 41% from 44% in 2019 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1310876138449797121?s=20

    This is where the tories are vulnerable. A BP resurgence, plus a mushrooming of other parties of the right. What is Farage waiting for? Brexit to be done?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,186

    The tories do not really fear Starmer. What they fear is a concerted, well organised and well funded attack from the right.

    Well that probably means SKSIPM.

    All the red kippers have already peeled off to the Tories, and have no intention of returning to Labour, so those would be easy pickings for The New Blackshirts. Not many voters remaining loyal to Labour in 2019 are likely to go down that road.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    HYUFD said:

    Tory lead back up to 3% though Brexit Party vote up to 3% and Tory vote down to 41% from 44% in 2019 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1310876138449797121?s=20

    Not that I want to bet on this, but I think Greens to get more votes than the Lib Dems is a real possibility at the next election.
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    The fireplace salesman has found time to write a piece for Telegraph about lifelong learning whilst our universities incarcerate students in their halls.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited September 2020
    Nigelb said:
    Though a 10% penalty for offshoring and a 10% 'Made in America' tax credit suggests Biden is no free trader and almost as protectionist as Trump.

    Corporations and high earners will also not like his proposed corporation tax and capital gains tax rise and he will clearly be pro union rather than business
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,186
    HYUFD said:

    Tory lead back up to 3% though Brexit Party vote up to 3% and Tory vote down to 41% from 44% in 2019 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1310876138449797121?s=20

    Didn't we do this one to death last night?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Nigelb said:
    That made in America tax credit looks like it is.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    tlg86 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tory lead back up to 3% though Brexit Party vote up to 3% and Tory vote down to 41% from 44% in 2019 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1310876138449797121?s=20

    Not that I want to bet on this, but I think Greens to get more votes than the Lib Dems is a real possibility at the next election.
    Yes, disgruntled Corbynistas are going Green, 2019 LDs are going to Starmer Labour and most Remain voting Tories are sticking with Boris for now
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,394
    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Couple of points on the back of yesterday's news that the WHO and the US are ordering up rapid antigen tests for immediate use, while we're still chuntering about a $100bn 'moonshot'.

    1. Any cheap, universally available, rapid test which is superior to diagnosis by apparent symptoms (which this emphatically is) would be useful now.
    It would, for example, cut by an order of magnitude at least all those parents seeking PCR tests for their kids with colds.
    It would also help isolate immediately those that are infected, rather than waiting a day/many days.

    2. (& this is a general point) Continuous improvement almost always beats waiting for perfection.

    Point 2 the foundation of agile development, something the government seriously struggles with. I'd rather ship a working product and improve it to the point of near perfection over the following few weeks than have nothing and try and ship a perfect product that may need years in development.
    As it stands, we might well end up ordering someone else's solution anyway, but several months later.

    And to make it worse, an imperfect test is already of great utility now.
    You two, @Nigelb and @MaxPB -

    What is your vaccine prognosis please?

    Mine for a while has been we hunker this out - law or guidance, I don't really care about that aspect, think it's overweighted - until a vaccine is rolled out next Summer. And then we can hopefully get back to life as more or less normal albeit with a different looking and screwed for a while economy and public finances.

    Is that overly optimistic do you think? Is there a good chance a vaccine is NOT the answer and we are thus FUBB for a long time?
    There's a long thread on vaccines which I linked to yesterday, and the conclusions start here:
    https://twitter.com/florian_krammer/status/1310426174091333633

    Back to normal next summer is probably a bit optimistic (not utterly impossible).
    On the other hand, the UK seems better provided with contracted supplies of various alternatives than most other countries, so we will be ahead of the rest of the world.

    A companion of mass, cheap antigen testing (which I think is more immediately significant than vaccines) followed by large scale vaccine rollout starting next year (and, FWIW, I have a fairly high degree of confidence that at least one of the vaccines will prove very effective) ought to see a return to normal(ish) life next year.

    And remember that the better the coverage of your testing, the better targeted the initial vaccination program will be (it will take quite some time to vaccinate everyone).
    We give the Flu shots to 1/3rd of the population each year, in a couple of months. This year the flu shots are running low in supply - due to extra demand - long before any signs of stress on the system in terms of people giving shots etc. This suggests that the long pole in the tent will be manufacture, once we have a vaccine.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    HYUFD said:

    Tory lead back up to 3% though Brexit Party vote up to 3% and Tory vote down to 41% from 44% in 2019 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1310876138449797121?s=20

    Didn't we do this one to death last night?
    Given the numbers only came out in full this morning, no
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,186
    edited September 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tory lead back up to 3% though Brexit Party vote up to 3% and Tory vote down to 41% from 44% in 2019 https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1310876138449797121?s=20

    Didn't we do this one to death last night?
    Given the numbers only came out in full this morning, no
    I thought we had a three point Yougov last night. Maybe it was early this morning. I don't know?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    He'd have lost to Kinnock.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited September 2020
    SNP slightly down to 46% in Scotland on Yougov subsample and Scottish Labour now second on 22%, just ahead of the Scottish Tories on 21%
    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5l5pygu8gt/TimesResults_200924_VI_Trackers_W.pdf
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    Are they doing the debates in person (socially distanced) or is it via Zoom?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    Are they doing the debates in person (socially distanced) or is it via Zoom?

    In person but with limited audience
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    He'd have lost to Kinnock.
    No he wouldn't, he would have beaten Kinnock by about the same margin Major did
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited September 2020
    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    They allowed Tories on the campus at Warwick Uni. Back in the day, I thought that place was so far left, that it was a requirement to prove you had no Tory leanings before being admitted. Having actual meeting of such, well I presume they had to be held in secret.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,186
    HYUFD said:

    SNP slightly down to 46% in Scotland on Yougov subsample and Scottish Labour now second on 22%, just ahead of the Scottish Tories on 21%
    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5l5pygu8gt/TimesResults_200924_VI_Trackers_W.pdf

    Be careful of Scottish subsamples.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:
    That made in America tax credit looks like it is.
    Looks more like nationalism to be. Maybe it's both though :D
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:
    That made in America tax credit looks like it is.
    Protectionist, perhaps. But whatever you think of that list of policies, it's really not socialism.
    (Except in the US sense, where anything that isn't Republican policy of the day is so described. And, of course, Eisenhower's polices, for example, might have been more accurately described as such...)
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    I think he's very confident there'll be a vaccine soon. He keeps talking up vaccines as the solution.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited September 2020

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    They allowed Tories on the campus at Warwick Uni. Back in the day, I thought that place was so far left, that it was a requirement to prove you had no Tory leanings before being admitted. Having actual meeting of such, well I presume they had to be held in secret.
    David Davis used to be involved as did Tim Loughton and Kevin Foster, who was there with me, I think now it is not much more woke than the average university though it was very leftwing in the 1960s and 1970s.

    I was also a member at Aberystwyth when I did my Masters which is a bit more traditional
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    He'd have lost to Kinnock.
    No he wouldn't, he would have beaten Kinnock by about the same margin Major did
    Sure.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,186
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    He'd have lost to Kinnock.
    No he wouldn't, he would have beaten Kinnock by about the same margin Major did
    I am not so sure, but if he had, Hurd would have given Smith and Blair a tougher fight. No cones hotline and back to basics morality (whilst squeezing Edwina) from Douglas Hurd.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:
    That made in America tax credit looks like it is.
    Protectionist, perhaps. But whatever you think of that list of policies, it's really not socialism.
    (Except in the US sense, where anything that isn't Republican policy of the day is so described. And, of course, Eisenhower's polices, for example, might have been more accurately described as such...)
    It could certainly be a platform UK Labour could put forward, showing the idea that the Democrats are the US Tories is a myth, most Tories would basically be independents or RINOs in US terms not Democrats
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited September 2020
    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    They allowed Tories on the campus at Warwick Uni. Back in the day, I thought that place was so far left, that it was a requirement to prove you had no Tory leanings before being admitted. Having actual meeting of such, well I presume they had to be held in secret.
    David Davis used to be involved as did Tim Loughton and Kevin Foster, who was there with me, I think now it is not much more woke than the average university though it was very leftwing in the 1960s and 1970s.

    I was also a member at Aberystwyth when I did my Masters which is a bit more traditional
    My understanding was that Warwick turned themselves rather corporate under an American Vice Chancellor and New Labour years of being comfortable about people becoming filthy rich. All about the monies.

    Certainly the last time I visited, a number of years ago, lots of very impressive new buildings with corporate sponsors.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    They allowed Tories on the campus at Warwick Uni. Back in the day, I thought that place was so far left, that it was a requirement to prove you had no Tory leanings before being admitted. Having actual meeting of such, well I presume they had to be held in secret.
    David Davis used to be involved as did Tim Loughton and Kevin Foster, who was there with me, I think now it is not much more woke than the average university though it was very leftwing in the 1960s and 1970s.

    I was also a member at Aberystwyth when I did my Masters which is a bit more traditional
    My understanding was that Warwick turned themselves rather corporate under an American Vice Chancellor and New Labour years of being comfortable about people becoming filthy rich. All about the monies.
    Thatcher liked it as did Blair, yes
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    He'd have lost to Kinnock.
    No he wouldn't, he would have beaten Kinnock by about the same margin Major did
    Sure.
    Why would someone who voted for Major in 1992 have switched to Kinnock over Hurd? Hurd may even have won over a few more LDs and Chris Patten might have held Bath
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    They allowed Tories on the campus at Warwick Uni. Back in the day, I thought that place was so far left, that it was a requirement to prove you had no Tory leanings before being admitted. Having actual meeting of such, well I presume they had to be held in secret.
    David Davis used to be involved as did Tim Loughton and Kevin Foster, who was there with me, I think now it is not much more woke than the average university though it was very leftwing in the 1960s and 1970s.

    I was also a member at Aberystwyth when I did my Masters which is a bit more traditional
    My understanding was that Warwick turned themselves rather corporate under an American Vice Chancellor and New Labour years of being comfortable about people becoming filthy rich. All about the monies.
    Thatcher liked it as did Blair, yes
    Money? Americans? Warwick?
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    Yes, have to agree with Alastair - the better Starmer does in the short term, the less likely he is to be next PM
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,186

    I think he's very confident there'll be a vaccine soon. He keeps talking up vaccines as the solution.
    He was confident not long ago that UK 'track and trace' was world beating, and assured us many years ago that he had never had a romantic tryst with Petronella Wyatt.
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    HYUFD said:

    Are they doing the debates in person (socially distanced) or is it via Zoom?

    In person but with limited audience
    They are in person, on stage together but will not shake hands. There will be no spin room afterwards. There will be an audience of about 75. You can watch on CNN, Fox News or Cspan.
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    I think he's very confident there'll be a vaccine soon. He keeps talking up vaccines as the solution.
    Your faith in these people relinquishing the political smack of unscrutinised rule by diktat 'cos vaccine' is going to prove to be very wrong.

    We are already being told a vaccine will not be a silver bullet by the medical establishment. We are going to need Johnson out and Cummings with him to break free of this authoritarianism. Johnson stinks of Cummings's arrogance.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,202

    The tories do not really fear Starmer. What they fear is a concerted, well organised and well funded attack from the right.

    And here it comes courtesy of Laurence "Lozza" Fox.

    A brand new political party called RECLAIM. So called because it's mission is "to reclaim British values" from the "cesspit of wokeness into which we are falling" - this last bit in quotes but is in fact my own work.

    https://news.sky.com/story/laurence-fox-controversial-actor-launches-political-party-to-fight-the-culture-wars-12083457
  • Options

    I think he's very confident there'll be a vaccine soon. He keeps talking up vaccines as the solution.
    Your faith in these people relinquishing the political smack of unscrutinised rule by diktat 'cos vaccine' is going to prove to be very wrong.

    We are already being told a vaccine will not be a silver bullet by the medical establishment. We are going to need Johnson out and Cummings with him to break free of this authoritarianism. Johnson stinks of Cummings's arrogance.
    Imagine if Boris said well it is going to be like this for next 2 years with a long winter ahead.

    It was hard enough for people to stick to things for 3 months. I am sure this carrot just out of reach is an approach being offered by the behavioural insight people as a way to keep people thinking I will just do this for another few weeks. Hence why the talk of back to normal for Christmas, to give people some hope.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    edited September 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    He'd have lost to Kinnock.
    No he wouldn't, he would have beaten Kinnock by about the same margin Major did
    Sure.
    Why would someone who voted for Major in 1992 have switched to Kinnock over Hurd? Hurd may even have won over a few more LDs and Chris Patten might have held Bath
    Decent guy, but public persona of a dried cod, and came third out of three in his own party.
    Fantasy.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    The tories do not really fear Starmer. What they fear is a concerted, well organised and well funded attack from the right.

    They seem to crap themselves simply by narrowing polls 10 years into office, judging by how they react in kneejerk fashion to bad press, I think they fear many things even when they need not.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    He'd have lost to Kinnock.
    No he wouldn't, he would have beaten Kinnock by about the same margin Major did
    Sure.
    Why would someone who voted for Major in 1992 have switched to Kinnock over Hurd? Hurd may even have won over a few more LDs and Chris Patten might have held Bath
    Decent guy, but public persona of a dried cod, and came third out of three in his own party.
    Fantasy.
    So what, John Major was also dull as ditchwater and still comfortably beat Kinnock.

    Had Major not emerged Hurd would likely have beaten Heseltine when Major went
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    The tories do not really fear Starmer. What they fear is a concerted, well organised and well funded attack from the right.

    And here it comes courtesy of Laurence "Lozza" Fox.

    A brand new political party called RECLAIM. So called because it's mission is "to reclaim British values" from the "cesspit of wokeness into which we are falling" - this last bit in quotes but is in fact my own work.

    https://news.sky.com/story/laurence-fox-controversial-actor-launches-political-party-to-fight-the-culture-wars-12083457
    A Harrovian to take on the Etonian elite.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    kinabalu said:

    The tories do not really fear Starmer. What they fear is a concerted, well organised and well funded attack from the right.

    And here it comes courtesy of Laurence "Lozza" Fox.

    A brand new political party called RECLAIM. So called because it's mission is "to reclaim British values" from the "cesspit of wokeness into which we are falling" - this last bit in quotes but is in fact my own work.

    https://news.sky.com/story/laurence-fox-controversial-actor-launches-political-party-to-fight-the-culture-wars-12083457
    I think there's plenty of people to challenge excessive wokeness without needing a party to do it. Pretty sure Obama has criticised it for one (albeit not in the same way as Fox presumably does)
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,202
    On topic -

    I agree with the Header that 3/1 Starmer next PM is a pisspoor price.

    Up to now I've held the view that Johnson will stick around for years - people usually do when you'd rather they didn't - but the photo of him at the top here makes me less convinced of this.

    Does that look like a man on top of his brief calmly steering the ship of state through the choppiest waters encountered for 80 years? I'm not sure it does.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    I think he's very confident there'll be a vaccine soon. He keeps talking up vaccines as the solution.
    Your faith in these people relinquishing the political smack of unscrutinised rule by diktat 'cos vaccine' is going to prove to be very wrong.

    We are already being told a vaccine will not be a silver bullet by the medical establishment. We are going to need Johnson out and Cummings with him to break free of this authoritarianism. Johnson stinks of Cummings's arrogance.
    Imagine if Boris said well it is going to be like this for next 2 years with a long winter ahead.

    It was hard enough for people to stick to things for 3 months. I am sure this carrot just out of reach is an approach being offered by the behavioural insight people as a way to keep people thinking I will just do this for another few weeks. Hence why the talk of back to normal for Christmas, to give people some hope.
    Two years? that's the truth? That's what central office really thinks? FFS.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,736

    HYUFD said:

    SNP slightly down to 46% in Scotland on Yougov subsample and Scottish Labour now second on 22%, just ahead of the Scottish Tories on 21%
    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5l5pygu8gt/TimesResults_200924_VI_Trackers_W.pdf

    Be careful of Scottish subsamples.
    I've seen that said before - is it a PB saying, or is there some special issue involved, please?
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    SNP slightly down to 46% in Scotland on Yougov subsample and Scottish Labour now second on 22%, just ahead of the Scottish Tories on 21%
    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5l5pygu8gt/TimesResults_200924_VI_Trackers_W.pdf

    Be careful of Scottish subsamples.
    The SNP were on 60% in the last IPSOS/MORI subsample.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    I think he's very confident there'll be a vaccine soon. He keeps talking up vaccines as the solution.
    politicians have ever held out hope that the future will solve the problems of today, with as little work from them if possible. So he may be very confident, or he might just hope it'll be a problem for future Boris to worry about.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    Great meme I've just been sent.


  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    His behaviour over the civil war in Bosnia was an utter disgrace and a stain on his record.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629
    kinabalu said:

    The tories do not really fear Starmer. What they fear is a concerted, well organised and well funded attack from the right.

    And here it comes courtesy of Laurence "Lozza" Fox.

    A brand new political party called RECLAIM. So called because it's mission is "to reclaim British values" from the "cesspit of wokeness into which we are falling" - this last bit in quotes but is in fact my own work.

    https://news.sky.com/story/laurence-fox-controversial-actor-launches-political-party-to-fight-the-culture-wars-12083457
    I was a bit surprised to find Richard Ayoade is Lozzas brother in Law. Not impressed by his QToutburst apparently. Oh how the establishment inter twine.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    FPT in response to @bondegezou -

    “One of the other issues is that people with existing mental health conditions have been abandoned with existing support services closed. See, for instance, this - https://www.ocduk.org/tag/david-veale/ - from Professor Veale in relation to OCD, a condition I know from personal experience is extremely distressing to those suffering from it and frightening to those around the sufferer.

    I cannot begin to imagine how hard the last six months have been for sufferers and their families with no end in sight. And the fatality rate - ie suicides - for those with it if they do not get help is high.

    There is so much hidden suffering around.”
  • Options

    I think he's very confident there'll be a vaccine soon. He keeps talking up vaccines as the solution.
    Your faith in these people relinquishing the political smack of unscrutinised rule by diktat 'cos vaccine' is going to prove to be very wrong.

    We are already being told a vaccine will not be a silver bullet by the medical establishment. We are going to need Johnson out and Cummings with him to break free of this authoritarianism. Johnson stinks of Cummings's arrogance.
    Imagine if Boris said well it is going to be like this for next 2 years with a long winter ahead.

    It was hard enough for people to stick to things for 3 months. I am sure this carrot just out of reach is an approach being offered by the behavioural insight people as a way to keep people thinking I will just do this for another few weeks. Hence why the talk of back to normal for Christmas, to give people some hope.
    Two years? that's the truth? That's what central office really thinks? FFS.
    I have no idea how long those in the know really think it will be, but the Swedish approach has been based on that timeframe. I am just saying for the British public I don't think if Boris had come out and said that in March the lockdown would have stuck. Instead, it seems like the message is being managed, first it was perhaps September, then perhaps just after Christmas.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited September 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    His behaviour over the civil war in Bosnia was an utter disgrace and a stain on his record.
    Engaging British troops and military hardware in a civil war would not really have achieved much other than mass British casualties and prolonging it and he had an excellent Gulf War and end of the Cold War
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    The tories do not really fear Starmer. What they fear is a concerted, well organised and well funded attack from the right.

    And here it comes courtesy of Laurence "Lozza" Fox.

    A brand new political party called RECLAIM. So called because it's mission is "to reclaim British values" from the "cesspit of wokeness into which we are falling" - this last bit in quotes but is in fact my own work.

    https://news.sky.com/story/laurence-fox-controversial-actor-launches-political-party-to-fight-the-culture-wars-12083457
    I think there's plenty of people to challenge excessive wokeness without needing a party to do it. Pretty sure Obama has criticised it for one (albeit not in the same way as Fox presumably does)
    If Laurence Fox wants to reclaim stuff, he might spend some time actually learning about British history first. He made a fool of himself over the role of Indian soldiers in WW1. Otherwise what does his party stand for: ignorance and a sense of victimhood? Well, we have today’s Tory party for that.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    I think he's very confident there'll be a vaccine soon. He keeps talking up vaccines as the solution.
    Your faith in these people relinquishing the political smack of unscrutinised rule by diktat 'cos vaccine' is going to prove to be very wrong.

    We are already being told a vaccine will not be a silver bullet by the medical establishment. We are going to need Johnson out and Cummings with him to break free of this authoritarianism. Johnson stinks of Cummings's arrogance.
    Imagine if Boris said well it is going to be like this for next 2 years with a long winter ahead.

    It was hard enough for people to stick to things for 3 months. I am sure this carrot just out of reach is an approach being offered by the behavioural insight people as a way to keep people thinking I will just do this for another few weeks. Hence why the talk of back to normal for Christmas, to give people some hope.
    Two years? that's the truth? That's what central office really thinks? FFS.
    I have no idea how long those in the know really think it will be, but the Swedish approach has been based on that timeframe. I am just saying for the British public I don't think if Boris had come out and said that in March the lockdown would have stuck. Instead, it seems like the message is being managed, first it was perhaps September, then perhaps just after Christmas.
    'the message is being managed' is a euphemism for 'the british people are being consistently lied to and misled'


  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,186
    Scott_xP said:
    Is the above picture with the trowel today's campaign photo-op?
  • Options
    Superb post. Well done Alastair.

    I'm laying him too off the back of this.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,186
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    SNP slightly down to 46% in Scotland on Yougov subsample and Scottish Labour now second on 22%, just ahead of the Scottish Tories on 21%
    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5l5pygu8gt/TimesResults_200924_VI_Trackers_W.pdf

    Be careful of Scottish subsamples.
    I've seen that said before - is it a PB saying, or is there some special issue involved, please?
    No special issue!
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    kle4 said:

    The tories do not really fear Starmer. What they fear is a concerted, well organised and well funded attack from the right.

    They seem to crap themselves simply by narrowing polls 10 years into office, judging by how they react in kneejerk fashion to bad press, I think they fear many things even when they need not.
    Best thing that could happen an sdp like split in the right.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,394

    I think he's very confident there'll be a vaccine soon. He keeps talking up vaccines as the solution.
    Your faith in these people relinquishing the political smack of unscrutinised rule by diktat 'cos vaccine' is going to prove to be very wrong.

    We are already being told a vaccine will not be a silver bullet by the medical establishment. We are going to need Johnson out and Cummings with him to break free of this authoritarianism. Johnson stinks of Cummings's arrogance.
    Imagine if Boris said well it is going to be like this for next 2 years with a long winter ahead.

    It was hard enough for people to stick to things for 3 months. I am sure this carrot just out of reach is an approach being offered by the behavioural insight people as a way to keep people thinking I will just do this for another few weeks. Hence why the talk of back to normal for Christmas, to give people some hope.
    Two years? that's the truth? That's what central office really thinks? FFS.
    I have no idea how long those in the know really think it will be, but the Swedish approach has been based on that timeframe. I am just saying for the British public I don't think if Boris had come out and said that in March the lockdown would have stuck. Instead, it seems like the message is being managed, first it was perhaps September, then perhaps just after Christmas.
    'the message is being managed' is a euphemism for 'the british people are being consistently lied to and misled'


    I think there is also the issue of people hearing what they want to hear. Second waves have been talked about since the start. As was the probability of a difficult winter. When the scientists/politicians at the briefing replied with "wait until its actually over" to questions about international comparisons, they were derided.

    Since the zero covid (lockdown until there is no more COVID) was never possible in this country, the question always was - what happens *after* the lockdown.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,186
    Scott_xP said:
    Gillian Keegan sounded very like Priti. Not a "g" within earshot. She talked rubbish too, for a moment I wondered if they are one and the same.
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,897
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    SNP slightly down to 46% in Scotland on Yougov subsample and Scottish Labour now second on 22%, just ahead of the Scottish Tories on 21%
    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5l5pygu8gt/TimesResults_200924_VI_Trackers_W.pdf

    Be careful of Scottish subsamples.
    I've seen that said before - is it a PB saying, or is there some special issue involved, please?
    Isn't there a hint of MacBeth there?
    But in general you should be wary of any opinion poll subsample where the population is noticeably different from the overall population. The polling companies make an effort to ensure that the full sample is representative and any large discrepanceies can be weighted post hoc. For subsamples this not usually feasible.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,186
    Scott_xP said:

    Is the above picture with the trowel today's campaign photo-op?

    Yes.

    He's building a wall, and Kent is going to pay for it...
    So Johnson back in his happy Covid-free, Brexit-free place.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    The tories do not really fear Starmer. What they fear is a concerted, well organised and well funded attack from the right.

    And here it comes courtesy of Laurence "Lozza" Fox.

    A brand new political party called RECLAIM. So called because it's mission is "to reclaim British values" from the "cesspit of wokeness into which we are falling" - this last bit in quotes but is in fact my own work.

    https://news.sky.com/story/laurence-fox-controversial-actor-launches-political-party-to-fight-the-culture-wars-12083457
    I was a bit surprised to find Richard Ayoade is Lozzas brother in Law. Not impressed by his QToutburst apparently. Oh how the establishment inter twine.
    Only the BP has the professionalism, the reach, the name and the organisation to effectively challenge the tories on the right at the moment

    James Forsyth has written that Farage's former acolytes are trying to get him to decide if he wants to lead. I guess he is waiting to see how brexit gets decided.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    His behaviour over the civil war in Bosnia was an utter disgrace and a stain on his record.
    Engaging British troops in a civil war would not really have achieved much other than mass British casualties and he had an excellent Gulf War
    Why do you think that was the choice? Allowing the Bosnians to defend themselves was the right moral choice, one which Hurd - disgracefully IMO - set his face against, for no good reason. I mean, it’s not as if Britain has ever had qualms about selling arms to all sorts of disgusting despotic regimes. But apparently selling arms to poor Muslims being slaughtered by a genocidal fascist regime was a step too far.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,394
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    His behaviour over the civil war in Bosnia was an utter disgrace and a stain on his record.
    Engaging British troops and military hardware in a civil war would not really have achieved much other than mass British casualties and prolonging it and he had an excellent Gulf War and end of the Cold War
    The slaughter in Yogoslavia went on until the Americans staged one of the most effective and nuanced interventions in a civil war, that I have ever heard of.

    Simply - they armed the opposition to the Serbs and gave them air support. When these "allies" started committing war crime (something that was inevitable), the units in question were cut off from support and left to be slaughtered by Serb counter attacks.

    Hurd specifically opposed anything being done to strength the opposition to Serb ethnic cleansing. Or indeed stop it.
  • Options
    Boris wants to stick around for the vaccine not completing Brexit.

    His Churchillian shtick and the desire to be seen having led the "victory" over the virus in his speeches is obvious.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,202

    I think he's very confident there'll be a vaccine soon. He keeps talking up vaccines as the solution.
    Your faith in these people relinquishing the political smack of unscrutinised rule by diktat 'cos vaccine' is going to prove to be very wrong.

    We are already being told a vaccine will not be a silver bullet by the medical establishment. We are going to need Johnson out and Cummings with him to break free of this authoritarianism. Johnson stinks of Cummings's arrogance.
    Imagine if Boris said well it is going to be like this for next 2 years with a long winter ahead.

    It was hard enough for people to stick to things for 3 months. I am sure this carrot just out of reach is an approach being offered by the behavioural insight people as a way to keep people thinking I will just do this for another few weeks. Hence why the talk of back to normal for Christmas, to give people some hope.
    Two years? that's the truth? That's what central office really thinks? FFS.
    I have no idea how long those in the know really think it will be, but the Swedish approach has been based on that timeframe. I am just saying for the British public I don't think if Boris had come out and said that in March the lockdown would have stuck. Instead, it seems like the message is being managed, first it was perhaps September, then perhaps just after Christmas.
    Hang on - a good vaccine by next Summer surely? June to be precise. That's my expectation and it is why I remain quite chipper and support the suppression strategy. If a vaccine is not coming for the general population until 2022 or later - or is only a long shot for working at all - I would start to feel rather bleak. It would mean that herd immunity by infection becomes the best of the bad choices - and the price tag on this is 250k deaths, 1m hospitalizations, large numbers of people left with long term health problems.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    His behaviour over the civil war in Bosnia was an utter disgrace and a stain on his record.
    Engaging British troops in a civil war would not really have achieved much other than mass British casualties and he had an excellent Gulf War
    Why do you think that was the choice? Allowing the Bosnians to defend themselves was the right moral choice, one which Hurd - disgracefully IMO - set his face against, for no good reason. I mean, it’s not as if Britain has ever had qualms about selling arms to all sorts of disgusting despotic regimes. But apparently selling arms to poor Muslims being slaughtered by a genocidal fascist regime was a step too far.
    There was no real national interest in selling British arms to Bosnian rebels in a civil war they were fighting against the Serbs to break up Yugoslavia.

    Britain does sell arms abroad but not regularly to one side only in the middle of a civil war to prolong the conflict
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718

    Superb post. Well done Alastair.

    I'm laying him too off the back of this.

    Yes, it is a good post.

    I`ve already laid Starmer for Next PM a while back, £100 @ 3.01.

    The other bet that stands out to me at the moment is a Lay on Labour to win a Overall Majority at next GE, which I think is ridiculously short at 4.1.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,186
    kinabalu said:

    I think he's very confident there'll be a vaccine soon. He keeps talking up vaccines as the solution.
    Your faith in these people relinquishing the political smack of unscrutinised rule by diktat 'cos vaccine' is going to prove to be very wrong.

    We are already being told a vaccine will not be a silver bullet by the medical establishment. We are going to need Johnson out and Cummings with him to break free of this authoritarianism. Johnson stinks of Cummings's arrogance.
    Imagine if Boris said well it is going to be like this for next 2 years with a long winter ahead.

    It was hard enough for people to stick to things for 3 months. I am sure this carrot just out of reach is an approach being offered by the behavioural insight people as a way to keep people thinking I will just do this for another few weeks. Hence why the talk of back to normal for Christmas, to give people some hope.
    Two years? that's the truth? That's what central office really thinks? FFS.
    I have no idea how long those in the know really think it will be, but the Swedish approach has been based on that timeframe. I am just saying for the British public I don't think if Boris had come out and said that in March the lockdown would have stuck. Instead, it seems like the message is being managed, first it was perhaps September, then perhaps just after Christmas.
    Hang on - a good vaccine by next Summer surely? June to be precise. That's my expectation and it is why I remain quite chipper and support the suppression strategy. If a vaccine is not coming for the general population until 2022 or later - or is only a long shot for working at all - I would start to feel rather bleak. It would mean that herd immunity by infection becomes the best of the bad choices - and the price tag on this is 250k deaths, 1m hospitalizations, large numbers of people left with long term health problems.
    I think I prefer Johnson's implausible optimism to your bleak forecast.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,394
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    His behaviour over the civil war in Bosnia was an utter disgrace and a stain on his record.
    Engaging British troops in a civil war would not really have achieved much other than mass British casualties and he had an excellent Gulf War
    Why do you think that was the choice? Allowing the Bosnians to defend themselves was the right moral choice, one which Hurd - disgracefully IMO - set his face against, for no good reason. I mean, it’s not as if Britain has ever had qualms about selling arms to all sorts of disgusting despotic regimes. But apparently selling arms to poor Muslims being slaughtered by a genocidal fascist regime was a step too far.
    IN the world of realpolitik "proper" diplomacy, the "proper" action was endless rounds of negotiations while the Serbs created more facts on the ground. Hurd et al were stuck in a geo-political view that was out of date. It included not upsetting the Russians by treading on their friends, the Serbs
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,736
    HYUFD said:
    Well, you - as a presumably typical Tory - are always talking about sending the tanks into Scotland and the task forces to invade Spain.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited September 2020

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    It might be an idea to ask Douglas Hurd, who once deployed Belloc with something approaching clairvoyance:

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1223695770085396481

    When I was chairman of Warwick University Tories we had Lord Hurd to speak and he was excellent, would have been a great PM had he won the Tory leadership in 1990, he was a heavyweight Foreign Secretary and not as flashy as Heseltine and brighter than Major but with similar policies
    His behaviour over the civil war in Bosnia was an utter disgrace and a stain on his record.
    Engaging British troops in a civil war would not really have achieved much other than mass British casualties and he had an excellent Gulf War
    Why do you think that was the choice? Allowing the Bosnians to defend themselves was the right moral choice, one which Hurd - disgracefully IMO - set his face against, for no good reason. I mean, it’s not as if Britain has ever had qualms about selling arms to all sorts of disgusting despotic regimes. But apparently selling arms to poor Muslims being slaughtered by a genocidal fascist regime was a step too far.
    IN the world of realpolitik "proper" diplomacy, the "proper" action was endless rounds of negotiations while the Serbs created more facts on the ground. Hurd et al were stuck in a geo-political view that was out of date. It included not upsetting the Russians by treading on their friends, the Serbs
    Hurd also opposed the 2003 Iraq War though and was sceptical about intervening in Syria's and Libya's civil war and as Foreign Secretary in 1990 helped lead the British action in the successful first Gulf War, he was a classic realpolitik Minister
This discussion has been closed.