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Johnson’s Commons response on the UK’s COVID infection rate is really quite extraordinary – politica

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 22 in General
Johnson’s Commons response on the UK’s COVID infection rate is really quite extraordinary – politicalbetting.com

What an amazing answer from Johnson. Asked why the UK's Covid infection rate is worse than Germany and Italy he says it's because we're a "freedom loving country" pic.twitter.com/vbOFSzgpfM

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • He is extraordinarily inept.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 49,487
    edited September 22
    The big news is a new scheme to replace furlough is going to be announced by Dishy Rishi in the next few days.

    It will directly affect millions of people lives and i am sure will be incredibly expensive, he needs to get it right.
  • In the Ipsos-MORI poll 40% approved of Boris.

    Prior to the last election in the Ipsos-MORI poll 36% approved of Boris.

    4% more people approve of Boris than did nine months ago as we were heading to the polls according to Ipsos-MORI.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 17,396
    Republican talking heads and Senators have been ramping up the rhetoric today.

    Looks like they will ram through the nominee before the election.
  • isamisam Posts: 34,038
    edited September 22

    In the Ipsos-MORI poll 40% approved of Boris.

    Prior to the last election in the Ipsos-MORI poll 36% approved of Boris.

    4% more people approve of Boris than did nine months ago as we were heading to the polls according to Ipsos-MORI.

    Quite surprised that his personality rating has gone up since June, (64 to 67, whilst Sir Keir's has dropped to 25 from 30. Maybe not having much personality is a positive in this Cowardly New World.
  • Interesting that Boris made no mention of the new app that comes out in a couple of days.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 15,142
    Today’s Conservatives do live their cliches and ideologies. A very long way from old school pragmatic conservatism.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 3,155
    Does he explain Brexit on us being a "freedom loving country" as well?

    And given that he's going on TV blaming these "freedom loving" people for not following the rules, perhaps he might be having second thoughts about whether being "freedom loving" always leads to optimal outcomes...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 7,479
    Evening all :)

    There's something in the Prime Minister's response - not the usual jingoistic hyperbole but a cultural nuance that seems unique to Britain and America around respect for the law and willingness to obey guidelines and restrictions.

    I saw a man on the Tube this afternoon NOT wearing a mask - should I have challenged him? Should there have been an authority presence on the train to ensure mask wearing was followed?

    "Freedom" as practised by some in the UK seems to be the individual freedom TO do whatever suits and in particular whatever the individual thinks they can get away with. The notion collective action might lead to freedom FROM further restrictions or the virus itself is going to struggle to get past this individualist self-obsessed aspect of our character.
  • What would you suggest he say ?

    "There are more Asian people in this country" ?

    "There are more self-obsessed people in this country" ?

    Both of which are a factor but not necessarily wise to say.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 3,155

    Interesting that Boris made no mention of the new app that comes out in a couple of days.

    Why would he? It's only the cherry on top of a system that apparently now has no purpose.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,498
    edited September 22
    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 15,142
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    There's something in the Prime Minister's response - not the usual jingoistic hyperbole but a cultural nuance that seems unique to Britain and America around respect for the law and willingness to obey guidelines and restrictions.

    I saw a man on the Tube this afternoon NOT wearing a mask - should I have challenged him? Should there have been an authority presence on the train to ensure mask wearing was followed?

    "Freedom" as practised by some in the UK seems to be the individual freedom TO do whatever suits and in particular whatever the individual thinks they can get away with. The notion collective action might lead to freedom FROM further restrictions or the virus itself is going to struggle to get past this individualist self-obsessed aspect of our character.

    I think you’re reading a little too much into it. Boris had to say that to deal with rumblings on his back benches. Today was scene setting for the restrictions that will likely follow.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 49,135

    Interesting that Boris made no mention of the new app that comes out in a couple of days.

    Do you realise how confusing it is for someone to talk about two different things in one announcement?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 3,155
    Alistair said:

    Republican talking heads and Senators have been ramping up the rhetoric today.

    Looks like they will ram through the nominee before the election.

    And in so doing ruins any hope that Biden might win and pursue a unifying agenda. He will have to seek to settle scores and continue the cycle.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 33,190
    Alistair said:

    Republican talking heads and Senators have been ramping up the rhetoric today.

    Looks like they will ram through the nominee before the election.

    The question is:

    - will Conservatives thank Trump by coming out to vote for him
    or
    - will they think 'job done'

    I've always felt that a liberal Supreme Court - and Roe vs Wade in particular - were amazing recruiting sargeants for the Republican Party. We're about to see that reversed.

    The other thing worth remembering, of course, is that Supreme Court nominees do not always behave as expected. Did many Gorusch backers expect that he would expand sexual discrimination to include homosexuality? Or that he would make Indian tribal rights a priority? (Or more specifically, Gorusch said that legislatures an executives couldn't just make override signed treaties... Hmmm...)
  • alex_ said:

    Does he explain Brexit on us being a "freedom loving country" as well?

    And given that he's going on TV blaming these "freedom loving" people for not following the rules, perhaps he might be having second thoughts about whether being "freedom loving" always leads to optimal outcomes...

    Yes I think Brexit can be explained on us being a freedom loving country, we are a different country to most of Europe which is why we were fundamentally unsuited to Europe.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 3,155

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    It's a bit difficult though, for the vast majority of people who are by and large seeking to follow the rules (ok they might have their little mini rebellion here and there), to have it implied that the 20% ruining for everybody are nevertheless "freedom loving". Because how much can you really convincingly criticise somebody for that?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 33,190

    Interesting that Boris made no mention of the new app that comes out in a couple of days.

    Dido is still only half way through this, but she'll write it as soon as she's done.
  • He is extraordinarily inept.

    Yes, that is the right word in this case. Quite apart from anything else, he has set himself up for criticism and rule-breaking by those who say his latest measures aren't acceptable in a 'freedom-living country'.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 10,899
    edited September 22

    In the Ipsos-MORI poll 40% approved of Boris.

    Prior to the last election in the Ipsos-MORI poll 36% approved of Boris.

    4% more people approve of Boris than did nine months ago as we were heading to the polls according to Ipsos-MORI.

    Let's see how those ratings are in a few months, I think they're heading in one direction and it's down
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 10,706
    edited September 22

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,498
    edited September 22
    alex_ said:

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    It's a bit difficult though, for the vast majority of people who are by and large seeking to follow the rules (ok they might have their little mini rebellion here and there), to have it implied that the 20% ruining for everybody are nevertheless "freedom loving". Because how much can you really convincingly criticise somebody for that?
    By flattering their noble impulses before telling them to bloody well buckle up. There are plenty of rumbles off - amongst the public, MPs, press - who would prefer a more 'muscular' (i.e. ignore it and hope it goes away) response to the virus. Better to make them feel heard, at least.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,915
    Wow, that is one crappy ballot paper.
    Even if the vote is as one might wish.

  • Nigelb said:

    Wow, that is one crappy ballot paper.
    Even if the vote is as one might wish.

    It looks more like a lottery ticket.
  • FF43 said:

    Just listened to Johnsons's and Sturgeon's talks to the nations.

    Sturgeon wins because she explains why people are being asked to take restrictive measures. Priorities are saving lives, opening schools, doing other NHS treatments and saving jobs in that order. Meeting other households isn't a priority so it gets chopped. You may or may not agree with those priorities but the rationale is clear.

    Johnson was seven minutes of drivel.

    Johnson's message was also surprisingly backward-looking. The stuff about "most people have kept the rules, but there have been too many breeches" was obviously going to lead to a chunk of the population shouting "but what about that scruffy Mekon bloke who bosses you about?" at their televisions. The stuff about the things that went wrong with PPE.

    But BoJo's speeches are always "meh" at best. And what was he doing with his hands?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 11,624
    Not sure there's a lot to read into Johnson's response to Ben Bradshaw. He talks a lot of mince...
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,344
    New Reuters/Ipsos polls:

    MICHIGAN: Biden 49%, Trump 44%
    NORTH CAROLINA: Biden 47%, Trump 47%
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,498

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Just as yours is the usual pointless whining.

    At least we're both staying true to type, eh?
  • This nails it:

    twitter.com/chrisgreybrexit/status/1308486165226496001

    His instincts are just so wrong on this. They were in March, he saw what happened and yet he is repeating it now.

    He will have to be back in a couple of weeks to tell everybody to get in their homes (again).
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 1,015
    It's sort of starting to feel like we must only be a few months away from the government using it's nationalised train set to take its furloughed workers to its nationalised sporting grounds with them all going out for a national eat out to help out meal on the way home just before we all get our spending vouchers to stimulate the economy at nationalised Christmas.

    Maybe there's efficiency savings that can be made here along the way.
  • 'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Our Genial Host chose to highlight the Ipsos-MORI poll in which 40% say they are satisfied with Boris.

    Whether by coincidence or not 40% is also the Tory vote share in the latest Ipsos-MORI poll.

    So if your hypothesis is right that there are plenty of Conservatives who dislike Boris there must be plenty of non-Conservatives who do like him to balance that out.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,915
    Great thread pointing out that regular mass testing & tracing does work - even when set up by physicists...



    Proactive works, even (or especially) if there are bumps along the way.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 10,706

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Our Genial Host chose to highlight the Ipsos-MORI poll in which 40% say they are satisfied with Boris.

    Whether by coincidence or not 40% is also the Tory vote share in the latest Ipsos-MORI poll.

    So if your hypothesis is right that there are plenty of Conservatives who dislike Boris there must be plenty of non-Conservatives who do like him to balance that out.
    What’s your point?
  • If we think its bad here, Trump is holding multiple rallies, i mean protests, a day now.

    Just so incredibly irresponsible.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 78,329
    edited September 22
    I expect those Tory MPs think the Tories are still ahead





    Also, no question from Bradshaw about why the UK has a lower Covid infection rate than Spain or France was there?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 7,453

    New Reuters/Ipsos polls:

    MICHIGAN: Biden 49%, Trump 44%
    NORTH CAROLINA: Biden 47%, Trump 47%

    These polls justify the latest betting odds IMO with Biden ahead but not hugely so.
  • The last person we need running the country right now is someone who delights in locking people up and taking away their liberties for the fun of it.

    Thank goodness the odious May was gone before this hit. We dodged a bullet there.
  • alex_ said:

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    It's a bit difficult though, for the vast majority of people who are by and large seeking to follow the rules (ok they might have their little mini rebellion here and there), to have it implied that the 20% ruining for everybody are nevertheless "freedom loving". Because how much can you really convincingly criticise somebody for that?
    By flattering their noble impulses before telling them to bloody well buckle up. There are plenty of rumbles off - amongst the public, MPs, press - who would prefer a more 'muscular' (i.e. ignore it and hope it goes away) response to the virus. Better to make them feel heard, at least.
    So what's the cost of that time lag between flattering noble impulses and telling them to buckle up?

    As far as anyone can tell, the infection count is increasing 10% a day at the moment, doubling every week.

    Do we have to wait for the problem to become obvious to the most bone-headed MPs on the government benches before taking further action?
  • Nigelb said:

    Great thread pointing out that regular mass testing & tracing does work - even when set up by physicists...



    Proactive works, even (or especially) if there are bumps along the way.
    I posted this on the last thread about the guest Sam Harris had on a couple of weeks ago, saying with this virus you have to use testing to find people with the virus, not wait for people with the virus to come to you.
  • 'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Our Genial Host chose to highlight the Ipsos-MORI poll in which 40% say they are satisfied with Boris.

    Whether by coincidence or not 40% is also the Tory vote share in the latest Ipsos-MORI poll.

    So if your hypothesis is right that there are plenty of Conservatives who dislike Boris there must be plenty of non-Conservatives who do like him to balance that out.
    What’s your point?
    Most dislike of Boris is no more than party partisan politics. He's got 40% of the country behind him right now which is a great share for a PM in approval ratings historically.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,915
    One university; ten thousand tests per day.

    Puts our current world beating system in context.
  • If I were Boris (admittedly a difficult Gedankenexperiment), I'd be trying to look forward more than one move. [OK, OK, in that case I wouldn't be Boris, but bear with me..]. And the big move I'd be looking to get right would be to ensure that Christmas will be as free of disruption as possible.

    Clearly I'm not Boris, because he seems to be trying to avoid a bit of short-term pain in what should be full knowledge that that approach maximises the chance of major disruption at Christmas.
  • Nigelb said:

    One university; ten thousand tests per day.

    Puts our current world beating system in context.

    However the average turn around time in the US is now a week.
  • alex_ said:

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    It's a bit difficult though, for the vast majority of people who are by and large seeking to follow the rules (ok they might have their little mini rebellion here and there), to have it implied that the 20% ruining for everybody are nevertheless "freedom loving". Because how much can you really convincingly criticise somebody for that?
    By flattering their noble impulses before telling them to bloody well buckle up. There are plenty of rumbles off - amongst the public, MPs, press - who would prefer a more 'muscular' (i.e. ignore it and hope it goes away) response to the virus. Better to make them feel heard, at least.
    So what's the cost of that time lag between flattering noble impulses and telling them to buckle up?

    As far as anyone can tell, the infection count is increasing 10% a day at the moment, doubling every week.

    Do we have to wait for the problem to become obvious to the most bone-headed MPs on the government benches before taking further action?
    I know this may seem like a shocking concept but how about trying to treat people like adults, tell them its serious and we need to be more careful, do some minor changes and see if that works before throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 3,161
    On the subject of responses, the response of Momentum to Keir Starmer's keynote conference speech was to criticise it for containing no more than "slogans and platitudes". An embittered rump, willing Starmer to fail.
  • If I were Boris (admittedly a difficult Gedankenexperiment), I'd be trying to look forward more than one move. [OK, OK, in that case I wouldn't be Boris, but bear with me..]. And the big move I'd be looking to get right would be to ensure that Christmas will be as free of disruption as possible.

    Clearly I'm not Boris, because he seems to be trying to avoid a bit of short-term pain in what should be full knowledge that that approach maximises the chance of major disruption at Christmas.

    I don't think it is realistic that Christmas won't be disrupted. We have to prepare for 6 months of this now, unless we want to keep stop / starting full lockdowns.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 10,706

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Our Genial Host chose to highlight the Ipsos-MORI poll in which 40% say they are satisfied with Boris.

    Whether by coincidence or not 40% is also the Tory vote share in the latest Ipsos-MORI poll.

    So if your hypothesis is right that there are plenty of Conservatives who dislike Boris there must be plenty of non-Conservatives who do like him to balance that out.
    What’s your point?
    Most dislike of Boris is no more than party partisan politics. He's got 40% of the country behind him right now which is a great share for a PM in approval ratings historically.
    So? What has that got to do with my comment?

    @BluestBlue posted some dog whistle culture war nonsense and I called him out on it. Thats it.
  • alex_ said:

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    It's a bit difficult though, for the vast majority of people who are by and large seeking to follow the rules (ok they might have their little mini rebellion here and there), to have it implied that the 20% ruining for everybody are nevertheless "freedom loving". Because how much can you really convincingly criticise somebody for that?
    By flattering their noble impulses before telling them to bloody well buckle up. There are plenty of rumbles off - amongst the public, MPs, press - who would prefer a more 'muscular' (i.e. ignore it and hope it goes away) response to the virus. Better to make them feel heard, at least.
    So what's the cost of that time lag between flattering noble impulses and telling them to buckle up?

    As far as anyone can tell, the infection count is increasing 10% a day at the moment, doubling every week.

    Do we have to wait for the problem to become obvious to the most bone-headed MPs on the government benches before taking further action?
    But it isn't doubling in a week.
  • On the subject of responses, the response of Momentum to Keir Starmer's keynote conference speech was to criticise it for containing no more than "slogans and platitudes". An embittered rump, willing Starmer to fail.

    A bit like certain ex-Tories on here I could name with regards to Boris.
  • If I were Boris (admittedly a difficult Gedankenexperiment), I'd be trying to look forward more than one move. [OK, OK, in that case I wouldn't be Boris, but bear with me..]. And the big move I'd be looking to get right would be to ensure that Christmas will be as free of disruption as possible.

    Clearly I'm not Boris, because he seems to be trying to avoid a bit of short-term pain in what should be full knowledge that that approach maximises the chance of major disruption at Christmas.

    I don't think it is realistic that Christmas won't be disrupted. We have to prepare for 6 months of this now, unless we want to keep stop / starting full lockdowns.
    Yes, but it's a question of degree.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,498

    alex_ said:

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    It's a bit difficult though, for the vast majority of people who are by and large seeking to follow the rules (ok they might have their little mini rebellion here and there), to have it implied that the 20% ruining for everybody are nevertheless "freedom loving". Because how much can you really convincingly criticise somebody for that?
    By flattering their noble impulses before telling them to bloody well buckle up. There are plenty of rumbles off - amongst the public, MPs, press - who would prefer a more 'muscular' (i.e. ignore it and hope it goes away) response to the virus. Better to make them feel heard, at least.
    So what's the cost of that time lag between flattering noble impulses and telling them to buckle up?

    As far as anyone can tell, the infection count is increasing 10% a day at the moment, doubling every week.

    Do we have to wait for the problem to become obvious to the most bone-headed MPs on the government benches before taking further action?
    The measures are coming into effect now whether they like it or not - this was a rhetorical positioning, not a policy one - and Boris explicitly reserved the right to take much harsher measures if these don't work. Sometimes it helps to take people with you - unless you'd prefer the nuttier elements to start forcing votes in Parliament on whether we do anything at all?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,915
    Incredible, but somehow unsurprising story.

    A Young Kennedy, in Kushnerland, Turned Whistle-Blower

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/09/28/a-young-kennedy-in-kushnerland-turned-whistle-blower
    When Robert F. Kennedy’s grandson Max volunteered with Jared Kushner’s COVID-19 task force, he likened the Trump Administration’s pandemic response to “a family office meets organized crime, melded with ‘Lord of the Flies.’ ”...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 17,396
    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    Republican talking heads and Senators have been ramping up the rhetoric today.

    Looks like they will ram through the nominee before the election.

    The question is:

    - will Conservatives thank Trump by coming out to vote for him
    or
    - will they think 'job done'

    I've always felt that a liberal Supreme Court - and Roe vs Wade in particular - were amazing recruiting sargeants for the Republican Party. We're about to see that reversed.

    Wasn't Roe vs Wade decided by a majority of Justices appointed by Republicans?
  • 'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Our Genial Host chose to highlight the Ipsos-MORI poll in which 40% say they are satisfied with Boris.

    Whether by coincidence or not 40% is also the Tory vote share in the latest Ipsos-MORI poll.

    So if your hypothesis is right that there are plenty of Conservatives who dislike Boris there must be plenty of non-Conservatives who do like him to balance that out.
    What’s your point?
    Most dislike of Boris is no more than party partisan politics. He's got 40% of the country behind him right now which is a great share for a PM in approval ratings historically.
    So? What has that got to do with my comment?

    @BluestBlue posted some dog whistle culture war nonsense and I called him out on it. Thats it.
    BluestBlue was right, I don't think people in this country who like this country and like our freedom loving nature are going to object to Boris saying it. People who like to bash the country and think we're no different to anywhere else will object. That's not culture war, that's reality.

    As for what its got to do with your comment, you claimed plenty of Tories think Boris is inept. The evidence from the polling is to the contrary, unless an equally balanced amount of non-Tories like him.
  • 'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Our Genial Host chose to highlight the Ipsos-MORI poll in which 40% say they are satisfied with Boris.

    Whether by coincidence or not 40% is also the Tory vote share in the latest Ipsos-MORI poll.

    So if your hypothesis is right that there are plenty of Conservatives who dislike Boris there must be plenty of non-Conservatives who do like him to balance that out.
    What’s your point?
    Most dislike of Boris is no more than party partisan politics. He's got 40% of the country behind him right now which is a great share for a PM in approval ratings historically.
    Yes, dislike of Boris is partisan politics. But the view that he's not up to the job is shared by a lot of Tories, including several on here and quite a few MPs on his own backbenches.
  • If I were Boris (admittedly a difficult Gedankenexperiment), I'd be trying to look forward more than one move. [OK, OK, in that case I wouldn't be Boris, but bear with me..]. And the big move I'd be looking to get right would be to ensure that Christmas will be as free of disruption as possible.

    Clearly I'm not Boris, because he seems to be trying to avoid a bit of short-term pain in what should be full knowledge that that approach maximises the chance of major disruption at Christmas.

    I don't think it is realistic that Christmas won't be disrupted. We have to prepare for 6 months of this now, unless we want to keep stop / starting full lockdowns.
    Yes, but it's a question of degree.
    I honestly think in 2-3 weeks we will follow Scotland with restrictions on home visits, and they will be in place for 6 months. And we might need to go even harder at times.

    So whichever way you butter it, that Christmas and New Year out the window.
  • Nigelb said:

    One university; ten thousand tests per day.

    Puts our current world beating system in context.

    How many UK universities have set up such a system ?
  • alex_ said:

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    It's a bit difficult though, for the vast majority of people who are by and large seeking to follow the rules (ok they might have their little mini rebellion here and there), to have it implied that the 20% ruining for everybody are nevertheless "freedom loving". Because how much can you really convincingly criticise somebody for that?
    By flattering their noble impulses before telling them to bloody well buckle up. There are plenty of rumbles off - amongst the public, MPs, press - who would prefer a more 'muscular' (i.e. ignore it and hope it goes away) response to the virus. Better to make them feel heard, at least.
    So what's the cost of that time lag between flattering noble impulses and telling them to buckle up?

    As far as anyone can tell, the infection count is increasing 10% a day at the moment, doubling every week.

    Do we have to wait for the problem to become obvious to the most bone-headed MPs on the government benches before taking further action?
    But it isn't doubling in a week.
    "COVID doubling every 7 days"

    https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/update-18-september
  • If I were Boris (admittedly a difficult Gedankenexperiment), I'd be trying to look forward more than one move. [OK, OK, in that case I wouldn't be Boris, but bear with me..]. And the big move I'd be looking to get right would be to ensure that Christmas will be as free of disruption as possible.

    Clearly I'm not Boris, because he seems to be trying to avoid a bit of short-term pain in what should be full knowledge that that approach maximises the chance of major disruption at Christmas.

    I don't think it is realistic that Christmas won't be disrupted. We have to prepare for 6 months of this now, unless we want to keep stop / starting full lockdowns.
    Yes, but it's a question of degree.
    I honestly think in 2-3 weeks we will follow Scotland with restrictions on home visits, and they will be in place for 6 months. And we might need to go even harder at times.

    So whichever way you butter it, that Christmas and New Year out the window.
    There's a lot more to Christmas than seeing the oldies.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 10,706

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Our Genial Host chose to highlight the Ipsos-MORI poll in which 40% say they are satisfied with Boris.

    Whether by coincidence or not 40% is also the Tory vote share in the latest Ipsos-MORI poll.

    So if your hypothesis is right that there are plenty of Conservatives who dislike Boris there must be plenty of non-Conservatives who do like him to balance that out.
    What’s your point?
    Most dislike of Boris is no more than party partisan politics. He's got 40% of the country behind him right now which is a great share for a PM in approval ratings historically.
    So? What has that got to do with my comment?

    @BluestBlue posted some dog whistle culture war nonsense and I called him out on it. Thats it.
    BluestBlue was right, I don't think people in this country who like this country and like our freedom loving nature are going to object to Boris saying it. People who like to bash the country and think we're no different to anywhere else will object. That's not culture war, that's reality.

    As for what its got to do with your comment, you claimed plenty of Tories think Boris is inept. The evidence from the polling is to the contrary, unless an equally balanced amount of non-Tories like him.
    There’s plenty of Con leaners on here that are currently unhappy with the Government.

    The rest of your comment is just repeating the same dog whistle culture war tosh.

    “Those who think Boris is clueless hate this country and what it stands for” give me strength.

  • I honestly think in 2-3 weeks we will follow Scotland with restrictions on home visits, and they will be in place for 6 months. And we might need to go even harder at times.

    So whichever way you butter it, that Christmas and New Year out the window.

    That's probably right. I'm not sure what the political impact will be, but I expect not great for the government.
  • If I were Boris (admittedly a difficult Gedankenexperiment), I'd be trying to look forward more than one move. [OK, OK, in that case I wouldn't be Boris, but bear with me..]. And the big move I'd be looking to get right would be to ensure that Christmas will be as free of disruption as possible.

    Clearly I'm not Boris, because he seems to be trying to avoid a bit of short-term pain in what should be full knowledge that that approach maximises the chance of major disruption at Christmas.

    I don't think it is realistic that Christmas won't be disrupted. We have to prepare for 6 months of this now, unless we want to keep stop / starting full lockdowns.
    Yes, but it's a question of degree.
    I honestly think in 2-3 weeks we will follow Scotland with restrictions on home visits, and they will be in place for 6 months. And we might need to go even harder at times.

    So whichever way you butter it, that Christmas and New Year out the window.
    There's a lot more to Christmas than seeing the oldies.
    For a lot of people catching up with friends and family is Christmas. If you can't visit them, that does mean it is cancelled.
  • 'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Our Genial Host chose to highlight the Ipsos-MORI poll in which 40% say they are satisfied with Boris.

    Whether by coincidence or not 40% is also the Tory vote share in the latest Ipsos-MORI poll.

    So if your hypothesis is right that there are plenty of Conservatives who dislike Boris there must be plenty of non-Conservatives who do like him to balance that out.
    What’s your point?
    Most dislike of Boris is no more than party partisan politics. He's got 40% of the country behind him right now which is a great share for a PM in approval ratings historically.
    So? What has that got to do with my comment?

    @BluestBlue posted some dog whistle culture war nonsense and I called him out on it. Thats it.
    BluestBlue was right, I don't think people in this country who like this country and like our freedom loving nature are going to object to Boris saying it. People who like to bash the country and think we're no different to anywhere else will object. That's not culture war, that's reality.

    As for what its got to do with your comment, you claimed plenty of Tories think Boris is inept. The evidence from the polling is to the contrary, unless an equally balanced amount of non-Tories like him.
    There’s plenty of Con leaners on here that are currently unhappy with the Government.

    The rest of your comment is just repeating the same dog whistle culture war tosh.

    “Those who think Boris is clueless hate this country and what it stands for” give me strength.
    Who said that "those who think Boris is clueless hate this country and what it stands for"? I think you may need to improve your reading comprehension as that to the best of my knowledge was never said.
  • If I were Boris (admittedly a difficult Gedankenexperiment), I'd be trying to look forward more than one move. [OK, OK, in that case I wouldn't be Boris, but bear with me..]. And the big move I'd be looking to get right would be to ensure that Christmas will be as free of disruption as possible.

    Clearly I'm not Boris, because he seems to be trying to avoid a bit of short-term pain in what should be full knowledge that that approach maximises the chance of major disruption at Christmas.

    I don't think it is realistic that Christmas won't be disrupted. We have to prepare for 6 months of this now, unless we want to keep stop / starting full lockdowns.
    Yes, but it's a question of degree.
    I honestly think in 2-3 weeks we will follow Scotland with restrictions on home visits, and they will be in place for 6 months. And we might need to go even harder at times.

    So whichever way you butter it, that Christmas and New Year out the window.
    I'm a bit of an antisocial so and so, but secretly me and my other half are rather looking forward to having Christmas on our own without all our darling children and all that hassle. Am I/we alone?
  • If I were Boris (admittedly a difficult Gedankenexperiment), I'd be trying to look forward more than one move. [OK, OK, in that case I wouldn't be Boris, but bear with me..]. And the big move I'd be looking to get right would be to ensure that Christmas will be as free of disruption as possible.

    Clearly I'm not Boris, because he seems to be trying to avoid a bit of short-term pain in what should be full knowledge that that approach maximises the chance of major disruption at Christmas.

    I don't think it is realistic that Christmas won't be disrupted. We have to prepare for 6 months of this now, unless we want to keep stop / starting full lockdowns.
    Yes, but it's a question of degree.
    I honestly think in 2-3 weeks we will follow Scotland with restrictions on home visits, and they will be in place for 6 months. And we might need to go even harder at times.

    So whichever way you butter it, that Christmas and New Year out the window.
    There's a lot more to Christmas than seeing the oldies.
    Probably see the Amazon delivery driver more than the oldies this year.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 1,015
    The U.K. has a shortage of EU-compliant widden pallets, delighting Burnistoun fans everywhere.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 10,706

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Our Genial Host chose to highlight the Ipsos-MORI poll in which 40% say they are satisfied with Boris.

    Whether by coincidence or not 40% is also the Tory vote share in the latest Ipsos-MORI poll.

    So if your hypothesis is right that there are plenty of Conservatives who dislike Boris there must be plenty of non-Conservatives who do like him to balance that out.
    What’s your point?
    Most dislike of Boris is no more than party partisan politics. He's got 40% of the country behind him right now which is a great share for a PM in approval ratings historically.
    So? What has that got to do with my comment?

    @BluestBlue posted some dog whistle culture war nonsense and I called him out on it. Thats it.
    BluestBlue was right, I don't think people in this country who like this country and like our freedom loving nature are going to object to Boris saying it. People who like to bash the country and think we're no different to anywhere else will object. That's not culture war, that's reality.

    As for what its got to do with your comment, you claimed plenty of Tories think Boris is inept. The evidence from the polling is to the contrary, unless an equally balanced amount of non-Tories like him.
    There’s plenty of Con leaners on here that are currently unhappy with the Government.

    The rest of your comment is just repeating the same dog whistle culture war tosh.

    “Those who think Boris is clueless hate this country and what it stands for” give me strength.
    Who said that "those who think Boris is clueless hate this country and what it stands for"? I think you may need to improve your reading comprehension as that to the best of my knowledge was never said.
    Yes it is. That’s literally all @BluestBlue ever says.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,846

    If I were Boris (admittedly a difficult Gedankenexperiment), I'd be trying to look forward more than one move. [OK, OK, in that case I wouldn't be Boris, but bear with me..]. And the big move I'd be looking to get right would be to ensure that Christmas will be as free of disruption as possible.

    Clearly I'm not Boris, because he seems to be trying to avoid a bit of short-term pain in what should be full knowledge that that approach maximises the chance of major disruption at Christmas.

    I don't think it is realistic that Christmas won't be disrupted. We have to prepare for 6 months of this now, unless we want to keep stop / starting full lockdowns.
    Yes, but it's a question of degree.
    I honestly think in 2-3 weeks we will follow Scotland with restrictions on home visits, and they will be in place for 6 months. And we might need to go even harder at times.

    So whichever way you butter it, that Christmas and New Year out the window.
    There's a lot more to Christmas than seeing the oldies.
    Just wait until the travel ban is imposed on the North Pole...

  • I honestly think in 2-3 weeks we will follow Scotland with restrictions on home visits, and they will be in place for 6 months. And we might need to go even harder at times.

    So whichever way you butter it, that Christmas and New Year out the window.

    That's probably right. I'm not sure what the political impact will be, but I expect not great for the government.
    I think people will grumble about restrictions, too much, not enough, too confusing, but lets be positive and hope the 2nd wave is better handled, but what will really do for the government is mass job losses.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 62,066
    Just seen that clip independently of this thread myself. Embarrasment of an answer.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,498

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Our Genial Host chose to highlight the Ipsos-MORI poll in which 40% say they are satisfied with Boris.

    Whether by coincidence or not 40% is also the Tory vote share in the latest Ipsos-MORI poll.

    So if your hypothesis is right that there are plenty of Conservatives who dislike Boris there must be plenty of non-Conservatives who do like him to balance that out.
    What’s your point?
    Most dislike of Boris is no more than party partisan politics. He's got 40% of the country behind him right now which is a great share for a PM in approval ratings historically.
    So? What has that got to do with my comment?

    @BluestBlue posted some dog whistle culture war nonsense and I called him out on it. Thats it.
    BluestBlue was right, I don't think people in this country who like this country and like our freedom loving nature are going to object to Boris saying it. People who like to bash the country and think we're no different to anywhere else will object. That's not culture war, that's reality.

    As for what its got to do with your comment, you claimed plenty of Tories think Boris is inept. The evidence from the polling is to the contrary, unless an equally balanced amount of non-Tories like him.
    There’s plenty of Con leaners on here that are currently unhappy with the Government.

    The rest of your comment is just repeating the same dog whistle culture war tosh.

    “Those who think Boris is clueless hate this country and what it stands for” give me strength.
    Who said that "those who think Boris is clueless hate this country and what it stands for"? I think you may need to improve your reading comprehension as that to the best of my knowledge was never said.
    Yes it is. That’s literally all @BluestBlue ever says.
    You seem not to know what the word 'literally' means, which is really quite sad.
  • alex_ said:

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    It's a bit difficult though, for the vast majority of people who are by and large seeking to follow the rules (ok they might have their little mini rebellion here and there), to have it implied that the 20% ruining for everybody are nevertheless "freedom loving". Because how much can you really convincingly criticise somebody for that?
    By flattering their noble impulses before telling them to bloody well buckle up. There are plenty of rumbles off - amongst the public, MPs, press - who would prefer a more 'muscular' (i.e. ignore it and hope it goes away) response to the virus. Better to make them feel heard, at least.
    So what's the cost of that time lag between flattering noble impulses and telling them to buckle up?

    As far as anyone can tell, the infection count is increasing 10% a day at the moment, doubling every week.

    Do we have to wait for the problem to become obvious to the most bone-headed MPs on the government benches before taking further action?
    I know this may seem like a shocking concept but how about trying to treat people like adults, tell them its serious and we need to be more careful, do some minor changes and see if that works before throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
    Simple answer is that the maths and biology of this is very asymmetric. If you overreact to start with, there's some annoyance and some economic harm, but you can tweak in three weeks. If you underreact to start with, there are more dead bodies (who aren't coming back to life) and you need to put the brakes on even harder in a really damaging way. As happened in March.

    And if that means annoying the fringes of your party, so be it. It's the difference between a statesman and a partisan hack.
  • alex_ said:

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    It's a bit difficult though, for the vast majority of people who are by and large seeking to follow the rules (ok they might have their little mini rebellion here and there), to have it implied that the 20% ruining for everybody are nevertheless "freedom loving". Because how much can you really convincingly criticise somebody for that?
    By flattering their noble impulses before telling them to bloody well buckle up. There are plenty of rumbles off - amongst the public, MPs, press - who would prefer a more 'muscular' (i.e. ignore it and hope it goes away) response to the virus. Better to make them feel heard, at least.
    So what's the cost of that time lag between flattering noble impulses and telling them to buckle up?

    As far as anyone can tell, the infection count is increasing 10% a day at the moment, doubling every week.

    Do we have to wait for the problem to become obvious to the most bone-headed MPs on the government benches before taking further action?
    But it isn't doubling in a week.
    "COVID doubling every 7 days"

    https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/update-18-september
    I thought you were referring to the official positive cases and that ridiculous graph of yesterday.

    The zoe app doesn't at least suggest that the rate of increase might be reducing.

    But we will see.
  • 'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Our Genial Host chose to highlight the Ipsos-MORI poll in which 40% say they are satisfied with Boris.

    Whether by coincidence or not 40% is also the Tory vote share in the latest Ipsos-MORI poll.

    So if your hypothesis is right that there are plenty of Conservatives who dislike Boris there must be plenty of non-Conservatives who do like him to balance that out.
    What’s your point?
    Most dislike of Boris is no more than party partisan politics. He's got 40% of the country behind him right now which is a great share for a PM in approval ratings historically.
    So? What has that got to do with my comment?

    @BluestBlue posted some dog whistle culture war nonsense and I called him out on it. Thats it.
    BluestBlue was right, I don't think people in this country who like this country and like our freedom loving nature are going to object to Boris saying it. People who like to bash the country and think we're no different to anywhere else will object. That's not culture war, that's reality.

    As for what its got to do with your comment, you claimed plenty of Tories think Boris is inept. The evidence from the polling is to the contrary, unless an equally balanced amount of non-Tories like him.
    There’s plenty of Con leaners on here that are currently unhappy with the Government.

    The rest of your comment is just repeating the same dog whistle culture war tosh.

    “Those who think Boris is clueless hate this country and what it stands for” give me strength.
    Who said that "those who think Boris is clueless hate this country and what it stands for"? I think you may need to improve your reading comprehension as that to the best of my knowledge was never said.
    Yes it is. That’s literally all @BluestBlue ever says.
    No, its not. He literally didn't use the words you put in quotation marks. If you're going to put words in quotation marks then everything in the quotation marks should be what was said - but it is not.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 14,967

    Nigelb said:

    Wow, that is one crappy ballot paper.
    Even if the vote is as one might wish.

    It looks more like a lottery ticket.
    Reminds me very strongly of the placepot - but more complicated.

    Can Americans in the flyover states handle such a grainy exercise?
  • alex_ said:

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    It's a bit difficult though, for the vast majority of people who are by and large seeking to follow the rules (ok they might have their little mini rebellion here and there), to have it implied that the 20% ruining for everybody are nevertheless "freedom loving". Because how much can you really convincingly criticise somebody for that?
    By flattering their noble impulses before telling them to bloody well buckle up. There are plenty of rumbles off - amongst the public, MPs, press - who would prefer a more 'muscular' (i.e. ignore it and hope it goes away) response to the virus. Better to make them feel heard, at least.
    So what's the cost of that time lag between flattering noble impulses and telling them to buckle up?

    As far as anyone can tell, the infection count is increasing 10% a day at the moment, doubling every week.

    Do we have to wait for the problem to become obvious to the most bone-headed MPs on the government benches before taking further action?
    I know this may seem like a shocking concept but how about trying to treat people like adults, tell them its serious and we need to be more careful, do some minor changes and see if that works before throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
    Simple answer is that the maths and biology of this is very asymmetric. If you overreact to start with, there's some annoyance and some economic harm, but you can tweak in three weeks. If you underreact to start with, there are more dead bodies (who aren't coming back to life) and you need to put the brakes on even harder in a really damaging way. As happened in March.

    And if that means annoying the fringes of your party, so be it. It's the difference between a statesman and a partisan hack.
    There's more than just biology there's economics and livelihoods on the line too. Overreacting now could see perfectly viable businesses, livelihoods, life works, jobs etc being destroyed. And why? Because you're two impatient to see if other measures worked first?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,498

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    Plenty of Conservatives think Boris is inept. This is not a case of “those who dislike this country and its character”.

    Quite frankly your entire comment is just the usual pointless bait-seeking drivel from you.
    Our Genial Host chose to highlight the Ipsos-MORI poll in which 40% say they are satisfied with Boris.

    Whether by coincidence or not 40% is also the Tory vote share in the latest Ipsos-MORI poll.

    So if your hypothesis is right that there are plenty of Conservatives who dislike Boris there must be plenty of non-Conservatives who do like him to balance that out.
    What’s your point?
    Most dislike of Boris is no more than party partisan politics. He's got 40% of the country behind him right now which is a great share for a PM in approval ratings historically.
    So? What has that got to do with my comment?

    @BluestBlue posted some dog whistle culture war nonsense and I called him out on it. Thats it.
    BluestBlue was right, I don't think people in this country who like this country and like our freedom loving nature are going to object to Boris saying it. People who like to bash the country and think we're no different to anywhere else will object. That's not culture war, that's reality.

    As for what its got to do with your comment, you claimed plenty of Tories think Boris is inept. The evidence from the polling is to the contrary, unless an equally balanced amount of non-Tories like him.
    There’s plenty of Con leaners on here that are currently unhappy with the Government.

    The rest of your comment is just repeating the same dog whistle culture war tosh.

    “Those who think Boris is clueless hate this country and what it stands for” give me strength.
    Who said that "those who think Boris is clueless hate this country and what it stands for"? I think you may need to improve your reading comprehension as that to the best of my knowledge was never said.
    Yes it is. That’s literally all @BluestBlue ever says.
    No, its not. He literally didn't use the words you put in quotation marks. If you're going to put words in quotation marks then everything in the quotation marks should be what was said - but it is not.
    Doesn't know what 'literally' means, doesn't know how to use quotation marks...

    Doesn't know much, does he?
  • FF43 said:

    Just listened to Johnsons's and Sturgeon's talks to the nations.

    Sturgeon wins because she explains why people are being asked to take restrictive measures. Priorities are saving lives, opening schools, doing other NHS treatments and saving jobs in that order. Meeting other households isn't a priority so it gets chopped. You may or may not agree with those priorities but the rationale is clear.

    Johnson was seven minutes of drivel.

    But was it Churchillian drivel?
  • theProletheProle Posts: 171
    edited September 22

    If I were Boris (admittedly a difficult Gedankenexperiment), I'd be trying to look forward more than one move. [OK, OK, in that case I wouldn't be Boris, but bear with me..]. And the big move I'd be looking to get right would be to ensure that Christmas will be as free of disruption as possible.

    Clearly I'm not Boris, because he seems to be trying to avoid a bit of short-term pain in what should be full knowledge that that approach maximises the chance of major disruption at Christmas.

    I don't think it is realistic that Christmas won't be disrupted. We have to prepare for 6 months of this now, unless we want to keep stop / starting full lockdowns.
    Yes, but it's a question of degree.
    I honestly think in 2-3 weeks we will follow Scotland with restrictions on home visits, and they will be in place for 6 months. And we might need to go even harder at times.

    So whichever way you butter it, that Christmas and New Year out the window.
    There's a lot more to Christmas than seeing the oldies.
    Going to be great for those like me who live alone, as well as terribly hard on my parents who are likely to not meet their first grandchild (my sister's baby) for four months.

    It's just not worth it. Why bother living if everything worthwhile in life is taken away, so all you can do is work? Those advocating more lockdown have got this terribly terribly wrong - it's time to give up on this stupid idea that we can control a viral disease forever.
  • SO when are Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer next schedule to face off in the House of Commons?

    Talk about must-see TV.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 15,142
    edited September 22

    FF43 said:

    Just listened to Johnsons's and Sturgeon's talks to the nations.

    Sturgeon wins because she explains why people are being asked to take restrictive measures. Priorities are saving lives, opening schools, doing other NHS treatments and saving jobs in that order. Meeting other households isn't a priority so it gets chopped. You may or may not agree with those priorities but the rationale is clear.

    Johnson was seven minutes of drivel.

    But was it Churchillian drivel?
    If the Chuckle Brothers had done a Churchill impression you would be close to Boris’ performance.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,915

    Nigelb said:

    Great thread pointing out that regular mass testing & tracing does work - even when set up by physicists...



    Proactive works, even (or especially) if there are bumps along the way.
    I posted this on the last thread about the guest Sam Harris had on a couple of weeks ago, saying with this virus you have to use testing to find people with the virus, not wait for people with the virus to come to you.
    Agreed.
    That’s been clear for months now - and a practical proposition for some time, too. Had we chosen to pursue it.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,782
    I couldn’t give a monkeys about Christmas. It’s cold, it’s dark and it’s damp. Awful time of year. Holing up and drinking wine is pretty much all there is to do. I suspect even Boris and his bunging coterie of fuckwits won’t stop me doing that.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 14,967
    FF43 said:

    Not sure there's a lot to read into Johnson's response to Ben Bradshaw. He talks a lot of mince...

    Quite. It's like he's chuntering away down at whatever's the posho version of the Old Bull & Bush a lot of the time.

    Which is why so many people - mainly shallow apolitical types - like him. His gross approval rating will therefore never drop though the floor.
  • alex_ said:

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    It's a bit difficult though, for the vast majority of people who are by and large seeking to follow the rules (ok they might have their little mini rebellion here and there), to have it implied that the 20% ruining for everybody are nevertheless "freedom loving". Because how much can you really convincingly criticise somebody for that?
    By flattering their noble impulses before telling them to bloody well buckle up. There are plenty of rumbles off - amongst the public, MPs, press - who would prefer a more 'muscular' (i.e. ignore it and hope it goes away) response to the virus. Better to make them feel heard, at least.
    So what's the cost of that time lag between flattering noble impulses and telling them to buckle up?

    As far as anyone can tell, the infection count is increasing 10% a day at the moment, doubling every week.

    Do we have to wait for the problem to become obvious to the most bone-headed MPs on the government benches before taking further action?
    I know this may seem like a shocking concept but how about trying to treat people like adults, tell them its serious and we need to be more careful, do some minor changes and see if that works before throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
    Simple answer is that the maths and biology of this is very asymmetric. If you overreact to start with, there's some annoyance and some economic harm, but you can tweak in three weeks. If you underreact to start with, there are more dead bodies (who aren't coming back to life) and you need to put the brakes on even harder in a really damaging way. As happened in March.

    And if that means annoying the fringes of your party, so be it. It's the difference between a statesman and a partisan hack.
    There's more than just biology there's economics and livelihoods on the line too. Overreacting now could see perfectly viable businesses, livelihoods, life works, jobs etc being destroyed. And why? Because you're two impatient to see if other measures worked first?
    No, not impatience.

    The thing to be avoided, if at all possible, is a second full-fat lockdown, because that really would stuff the economy and mental health of people. The only way to do that is to stop infections running out of control.

    England is set to have weaker controls than other parts of the UK, which you would expect to lead to faster growth going forwards. The kindest thing you can say is that it's a heck of a gamble.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,915

    Nigelb said:

    One university; ten thousand tests per day.

    Puts our current world beating system in context.

    However the average turn around time in the US is now a week.
    Yes - puts their national system equally to shame.
    One university doing over 1% of the entire US testing effort, with no such lags.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 49,487
    edited September 22
    The other thing that is missing from any plan, at what stage will shielding of the vulnerable be triggered.

    At the moment, they literally said, no need to shield, keep calm and carry on. However, i think it is inevitable that they will have to be shielded for 3+ months. We should be preparing people for this to be the case.

    I have told my elderly parents today, you are going to be doing this again. Lets get everything you need and make a plan.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 223
    edited September 22
    Apparently Cindy McCain will be formally endorsing Joe Biden tomorrow and will be on the three morning shows on CBS, NBC and ABC . It’s no secret that Biden and the McCains have been very good friends for many years but this is quite a big deal . John McCain was hugely popular in Arizona and her endorsement should help with both the President and down ballot races in the Senate and House . Mark Kelly the ex astronaut is leading the vile Martha Mcsally in the Senate race and should hopefully rid the state of the Trump arse licker.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 78,329
    nico679 said:

    Apparently Cindy McCain will be formally endorsing Joe Biden tomorrow and will be on the three morning shows on CBS, NBC and ABC . It’s no secret that Biden and the McCains have been very good friends for many years but this is quite a big deal . John McCain was hugely popular in Arizona and her endorsement should help with both the President and down ballot races in the Senate and House . Mark Kelly the ex astronaut is leading the vile Martha Mcsally and should hopefully rid the state of the Trump arse licker.

    Though the McCains hated Trump in 2016 too but he still won Arizona and the EC
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 42,679
    edited September 22

    alex_ said:

    'I just wonder what those CON MPs who gained seats at the last election think.'

    That they won their seats because of him and without him we'd be in for more years of Hung Parliament hell?

    People who actually like this country and its character are unlikely to have much issue with Boris' answer.

    It's a bit difficult though, for the vast majority of people who are by and large seeking to follow the rules (ok they might have their little mini rebellion here and there), to have it implied that the 20% ruining for everybody are nevertheless "freedom loving". Because how much can you really convincingly criticise somebody for that?
    By flattering their noble impulses before telling them to bloody well buckle up. There are plenty of rumbles off - amongst the public, MPs, press - who would prefer a more 'muscular' (i.e. ignore it and hope it goes away) response to the virus. Better to make them feel heard, at least.
    So what's the cost of that time lag between flattering noble impulses and telling them to buckle up?

    As far as anyone can tell, the infection count is increasing 10% a day at the moment, doubling every week.

    Do we have to wait for the problem to become obvious to the most bone-headed MPs on the government benches before taking further action?
    I know this may seem like a shocking concept but how about trying to treat people like adults, tell them its serious and we need to be more careful, do some minor changes and see if that works before throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
    Simple answer is that the maths and biology of this is very asymmetric. If you overreact to start with, there's some annoyance and some economic harm, but you can tweak in three weeks. If you underreact to start with, there are more dead bodies (who aren't coming back to life) and you need to put the brakes on even harder in a really damaging way. As happened in March.

    And if that means annoying the fringes of your party, so be it. It's the difference between a statesman and a partisan hack.
    There's more than just biology there's economics and livelihoods on the line too. Overreacting now could see perfectly viable businesses, livelihoods, life works, jobs etc being destroyed. And why? Because you're two impatient to see if other measures worked first?
    No, not impatience.

    The thing to be avoided, if at all possible, is a second full-fat lockdown, because that really would stuff the economy and mental health of people. The only way to do that is to stop infections running out of control.

    England is set to have weaker controls than other parts of the UK, which you would expect to lead to faster growth going forwards. The kindest thing you can say is that it's a heck of a gamble.
    The R rate has been below 1 for months and has only just gone up above 1 and is estimated not much higher than 1 currently.

    I don't view treating adults as adults as that big of a gamble. We'll see.

    If we don't need a further national lockdown in a couple of weeks will you put your hands up and say fair enough?
  • Well at least we can all waste away the hours lockdown playing on our new xbox series x, ps5 or pc with gtx 3080...oh wait all the pre-orders have all sold out.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,782

    The other thing that is missing from any plan, at what stage will shielding of the vulnerable be triggered.

    At the moment, they literally said, no need to shield, keep calm and carry on. However, i think it is inevitable that they will have to be shielded for 3+ months. We should be preparing people for this to be the case.

    I have told my elderly parents today, you are going to be doing this again. Lets get everything you need and make a plan.

    Yes. Risk segmentation is the only sensible strategy absent a vaccine. We need to have a robust national debate about this. Unlikely with a clown like Bozza in charge.
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