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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561



    That’s a long-winded way to write: “i’m a layman pretending to be an expert”. Got it. Just as bad as Twitter.

    This site is full of those - I feel it whenever the conversation turns to my area of expertise, which it often does. As indeed is the entire Internet.

    (And no doubt I'm just as bad on other matters).
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,013
    edited September 2020
    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:



    You want the Navy to get into altercations with fishing boats. Are you sure? What is Britain becoming?

    The RN has a Fisheries Protection Squadron with 5 x River Class OPV precisely for getting in altercations with fishing boats. That's what they're for.

    Widely regarded as one of the worst possible drafts on the job.
    Do you think there are enough for the forthcoming no deal? (seriously.)
    Sure, the tories have accidentally sold a River Class to Bahrain last week but they'll pull one back from the Med and/or Falklands if necessary.

    The clue that they were planning to dispose of one was when The Fireplace Salesman said they wouldn't due to the demands of Brexit.
  • Options
    All this talk of fish on here has made me starving.

    I'm off to Waitrose to do a Fish Friday for me lunch - with 20% knocked off, if I can find my card.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    edited September 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    In 2016 Holyrood election for Edinburgh Southern (not exactly the same as the Westminster seat) Labour won the FPTP seat but on the list the constituency actually voted majority Conservative.

    A true #SNPOUT constituency !
    I think it is about the wealthiest constituency in Scotland with the highest house prices, the Edinburgh equivalent of Kensington, Chelsea and Fulham or Cities of London and Westminster.

    Also seats the Tories still narrowly hold despite big Remain votes
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,293
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Also, race does not impact on pure deep self like gender does. Gender dysphoria - female in a male body and vice versa - is a real condition. There is no equivalent for race. Half black, half japanese "real self" born in a half white, quarter aboriginal, quarter mexican body? Don't think so. Sounds absurd because it IS absurd.

    Race however is important for people's sense of identity, because other people have made it important, so somehow those identities have to be decided. Who decides?

    There's an interesting book by a guy who grew up in Burundi, where they were the "white kids" because their Dad was European. In France they're black, of course. So who decides?

    This comes back to the argument Rowling put herself into. She's been told that she can't define her own identity as a woman, because other people are telling her what it has to be. Why is it that people born and brought up as men are the people who decide what a female identity is?

    I've grown up with the idea that there are only minimal intrinsic differences between the genders, beyond the reproductive essentials. So if someone wants to switch from one to the other it doesn't make much difference to me.

    But it means I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body. I don't think that's a useful message for kids who don't fit into gender stereotypes.
    "I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body."

    It can`t - it`s nonsense. It`s a psychiatric condition, gender dysphoria, and is about what people "feel" rather than facts - i.e. it can`t be disproved by evidence. A non-falsifiable claim if you like.

    Kinabalu thinks we should pander to this. I don`t.
    Not pander. Treat in the way that is best for the afflicted and harms no-one else. The alternative of denying the condition and the treatment would bring misery to many and would also be going backwards since the right to transgender has been recognized for some time.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,658
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    He said McCain was a loser in an election because he, err, lost. He said he was a war hero because he was captured but he preferred people that were not captured.

    To be honest there is so much to criticise about Trump that it can be difficult to know where to start. I am not sure it should be here though.

    Trump is pointing out the hypocrisy around war heroes. That just because you get put into a foreign prison while you are in the service of your country, that puts you beyond any criticism for anything.

    Problem for Trump: that is the observation of the person he is - sneering metropolitan elite - and not the person he presents himself as - standing up for Mr and Mrs Ordinary who have a great respect for soldiers like McCain. What's changed now is that he is up against a challenger whose patriotism is in no doubt and who is making a pitch for the traditional values voter that Trump sees as his own.

    Hence the reverse ferret.
    Of course McCain's herosim wasn't just down to the fact he was a pow. He refused preferential release because of who he was in solidarity with his comrades, amongst other acts which demonstrated the quality of the man.
  • Options
    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,900
    Fishing said:



    That’s a long-winded way to write: “i’m a layman pretending to be an expert”. Got it. Just as bad as Twitter.

    This site is full of those - I feel it whenever the conversation turns to my area of expertise, which it often does. As indeed is the entire Internet.

    (And no doubt I'm just as bad on other matters).
    Reminds me of Harriet's and Eadric's posts analysing Corona data in March.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    nichomar said:

    Interesting, not sure if it’s true

    The Spanish anomaly: fight COVID-19 with the 'highest population density' in Europe. The 47.2 million people who live in Spain are concentrated in only 13% of the territory,

    Sounds correct, Barca and Madrid are full of small flats iirc.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,344
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    He said McCain was a loser in an election because he, err, lost. He said he was a war hero because he was captured but he preferred people that were not captured.

    To be honest there is so much to criticise about Trump that it can be difficult to know where to start. I am not sure it should be here though.

    Trump is pointing out the hypocrisy around war heroes. That just because you get put into a foreign prison while you are in the service of your country, that puts you beyond any criticism for anything.

    Problem for Trump: that is the observation of the person he is - sneering metropolitan elite - and not the person he presents himself as - standing up for Mr and Mrs Ordinary who have a great respect for soldiers like McCain. What's changed now is that he is up against a challenger whose patriotism is in no doubt and who is making a pitch for the traditional values voter that Trump sees as his own.

    Hence the reverse ferret.
    One thing Trump is undoubtedly brilliant at is characterising opponents in a way that highlights their weaknesses. Little Marco, Lying Ted, Pocahontas, crooked Hillary etc. "Sleepy Joe" almost gets there but doesn't quite have the bite of some of his previous efforts. Trying to portray Biden as a raging socialist etc isn't really working either.

    I get the impression he is still looking for some of his wedges and missing live audiences to try them out on.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561



    But I do have actual expertise, experience and knowledge of business, economics, mathematics and being able to read.

    Where did you study your economics as a matter of interest?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,053
    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,758
    kjh said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    He said McCain was a loser in an election because he, err, lost. He said he was a war hero because he was captured but he preferred people that were not captured.

    To be honest there is so much to criticise about Trump that it can be difficult to know where to start. I am not sure it should be here though.

    Trump is pointing out the hypocrisy around war heroes. That just because you get put into a foreign prison while you are in the service of your country, that puts you beyond any criticism for anything.

    Problem for Trump: that is the observation of the person he is - sneering metropolitan elite - and not the person he presents himself as - standing up for Mr and Mrs Ordinary who have a great respect for soldiers like McCain. What's changed now is that he is up against a challenger whose patriotism is in no doubt and who is making a pitch for the traditional values voter that Trump sees as his own.

    Hence the reverse ferret.
    Of course McCain's herosim wasn't just down to the fact he was a pow. He refused preferential release because of who he was in solidarity with his comrades, amongst other acts which demonstrated the quality of the man.
    Indeed. I should have added that McCain is one of the least deserving of that critique. along with Trump being the least qualified to make it.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,053

    All this talk of fish on here has made me starving.

    I'm off to Waitrose to do a Fish Friday for me lunch - with 20% knocked off, if I can find my card.

    Use Apple Pay.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    edited September 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Also, race does not impact on pure deep self like gender does. Gender dysphoria - female in a male body and vice versa - is a real condition. There is no equivalent for race. Half black, half japanese "real self" born in a half white, quarter aboriginal, quarter mexican body? Don't think so. Sounds absurd because it IS absurd.

    Race however is important for people's sense of identity, because other people have made it important, so somehow those identities have to be decided. Who decides?

    There's an interesting book by a guy who grew up in Burundi, where they were the "white kids" because their Dad was European. In France they're black, of course. So who decides?

    This comes back to the argument Rowling put herself into. She's been told that she can't define her own identity as a woman, because other people are telling her what it has to be. Why is it that people born and brought up as men are the people who decide what a female identity is?

    I've grown up with the idea that there are only minimal intrinsic differences between the genders, beyond the reproductive essentials. So if someone wants to switch from one to the other it doesn't make much difference to me.

    But it means I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body. I don't think that's a useful message for kids who don't fit into gender stereotypes.
    "I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body."

    It can`t - it`s nonsense. It`s a psychiatric condition, gender dysphoria, and is about what people "feel" rather than facts - i.e. it can`t be disproved by evidence. A non-falsifiable claim if you like.

    Kinabalu thinks we should pander to this. I don`t.
    Not pander. Treat in the way that is best for the afflicted and harms no-one else. The alternative of denying the condition and the treatment would bring misery to many and would also be going backwards since the right to transgender has been recognized for some time.
    There’s been a right to transition gender for some time, that is true.

    The notion that one can choose their own gender, and then without any actual medical treatment or surgery have the ‘right’ to invade women’s safe spaces such as changing rooms and sporting competitions, is quite recent.

    It’s actually possible to pinpoint the date when the recent trans stuff started in the USA, it was 27th June 2015, the day after the Supreme Court ruled gay marriage legal. For the woke campaigners, trans issues were simply next on the list after they ‘won’ gay marriage.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    edited September 2020

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,344

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    There are a lot of times when I think that this election is a bit like the Boris leadership election where people kept coming up with theories about why it was actually quite close but in fact it never was.

    And then I worry again.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,731
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    He said McCain was a loser in an election because he, err, lost. He said he was a war hero because he was captured but he preferred people that were not captured.

    To be honest there is so much to criticise about Trump that it can be difficult to know where to start. I am not sure it should be here though.

    Trump is pointing out the hypocrisy around war heroes. That just because you get put into a foreign prison while you are in the service of your country, that puts you beyond any criticism for anything.

    Problem for Trump: that is the observation of the person he is - sneering metropolitan elite - and not the person he presents himself as - standing up for Mr and Mrs Ordinary who have a great respect for soldiers like McCain. What's changed now is that he is up against a challenger whose patriotism is in no doubt and who is making a pitch for the traditional values voter that Trump sees as his own.

    Hence the reverse ferret.
    Well, in fact as white College kids in late 1960s America, both Joe and Donald knew what to pull to dodge the Vietnam draft:

    FPT:
    Foxy said:

    Joe Biden also had 5 draft deferments, but for asthma rather than bone spurs.

    https://www.insidesources.com/joe-bidens-draft-record-looks-a-lot-like-donald-trumps-do-democrats-care/

    I think it just shows how unwilling wealthy educated white Americans were to be drafted into an unpopular war, leaving the fighting to rednecks and inner city ghetto kids. 11% of America were Black in the late Sixties, but a third of combat troops, with much of the remainder poor whites. Together they made up "MacNamara's Morons", and who were used as frontline cannon fodder:

    https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/story-behind-mcnamaras-morons
    The American War in Vietnam was quite wrong, as eventually nearly all Americans came to conclude. Remembering the heroism of individuals is a bit like recognising the heroism of the Black and Tans.
  • Options
    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    DavidL said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    There are a lot of times when I think that this election is a bit like the Boris leadership election where people kept coming up with theories about why it was actually quite close but in fact it never was.

    And then I worry again.
    More like 2019 GE perhaps. Lots of expectation that if the Tories could blow one big lead they could blow another.

    And then they just... didn't. Which came as a surprise even though it was exactly what everything seemed to be saying.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,053
    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    I was referring to today’s polls, not the average (scroll down).

    Feel free to unskew those.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    He said McCain was a loser in an election because he, err, lost. He said he was a war hero because he was captured but he preferred people that were not captured.

    To be honest there is so much to criticise about Trump that it can be difficult to know where to start. I am not sure it should be here though.

    Trump is pointing out the hypocrisy around war heroes. That just because you get put into a foreign prison while you are in the service of your country, that puts you beyond any criticism for anything.

    Problem for Trump: that is the observation of the person he is - sneering metropolitan elite - and not the person he presents himself as - standing up for Mr and Mrs Ordinary who have a great respect for soldiers like McCain. What's changed now is that he is up against a challenger whose patriotism is in no doubt and who is making a pitch for the traditional values voter that Trump sees as his own.

    Hence the reverse ferret.
    One thing Trump is undoubtedly brilliant at is characterising opponents in a way that highlights their weaknesses. Little Marco, Lying Ted, Pocahontas, crooked Hillary etc. "Sleepy Joe" almost gets there but doesn't quite have the bite of some of his previous efforts. Trying to portray Biden as a raging socialist etc isn't really working either.

    I get the impression he is still looking for some of his wedges and missing live audiences to try them out on.
    “Hiden’ Biden” is being trialled on Twitter this week, playing into Pelosi’s idea that there shouldn’t be debates.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,053
    DavidL said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    There are a lot of times when I think that this election is a bit like the Boris leadership election where people kept coming up with theories about why it was actually quite close but in fact it never was.

    And then I worry again.
    Oh yes, 100%.

    I still think Trumpton will win.

    But it’s hard to find any evidence for that view, other than my instinctive pessimism.
  • Options

    This tells you all you need to know about UK consumers' appreciation of seafood:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1301846557575335936

    What is chippy sauce?
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    Or more likely they are identifying as undecided which does not equal silent Trump voters.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    MrEd said:

    Nigelb said:

    MrEd said:

    FYI re the Trump campaign:

    https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/08/tanned-rested-and-ready-donald-trump-is-in-much-better-shape-than-he-was-four-years-ago-mulshine.html

    Ignore the comments re Biden etc, focus on what is being said about his organisation vs 4 years ago.

    Difference is, this time round he's the establishment.
    Corrupt establishment, sure, but he can't run as an insurgent any more, and he doesn't know anything else.

    I was thinking more about the comments about his organisation on the ground, enthusiasm etc. It sounds like the ground game is a lot more organised and efficient this time round (no surprise). Also, some interesting comments about his new campaign manager.
    No doubt they will efficiently turn out Trump voters.
    But if the message is not appealing, it doesn’t matter how much you spend on it.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    Grandiose said:

    DavidL said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    There are a lot of times when I think that this election is a bit like the Boris leadership election where people kept coming up with theories about why it was actually quite close but in fact it never was.

    And then I worry again.
    More like 2019 GE perhaps. Lots of expectation that if the Tories could blow one big lead they could blow another.

    And then they just... didn't. Which came as a surprise even though it was exactly what everything seemed to be saying.
    Today's US poll average has Biden's lead closer to Cameron's in 2010 or 2017 than Boris' in 2019
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    Law and Order.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080

    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    Or more likely they are identifying as undecided which does not equal silent Trump voters.
    Undecided voters tend to go with the status quo in the end, if they really wanted to get rid of Trump they would already be saying they will vote for Biden
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    Law and Order.
    LAW AND ORDER!
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,758
    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    He said McCain was a loser in an election because he, err, lost. He said he was a war hero because he was captured but he preferred people that were not captured.

    To be honest there is so much to criticise about Trump that it can be difficult to know where to start. I am not sure it should be here though.

    Trump is pointing out the hypocrisy around war heroes. That just because you get put into a foreign prison while you are in the service of your country, that puts you beyond any criticism for anything.

    Problem for Trump: that is the observation of the person he is - sneering metropolitan elite - and not the person he presents himself as - standing up for Mr and Mrs Ordinary who have a great respect for soldiers like McCain. What's changed now is that he is up against a challenger whose patriotism is in no doubt and who is making a pitch for the traditional values voter that Trump sees as his own.

    Hence the reverse ferret.
    One thing Trump is undoubtedly brilliant at is characterising opponents in a way that highlights their weaknesses. Little Marco, Lying Ted, Pocahontas, crooked Hillary etc. "Sleepy Joe" almost gets there but doesn't quite have the bite of some of his previous efforts. Trying to portray Biden as a raging socialist etc isn't really working either.

    I get the impression he is still looking for some of his wedges and missing live audiences to try them out on.
    Also Biden can talk about Trump with a disgust that comes across as authentic and which the target audience can relate to. Those other politicians were unable to land effective attacks on him
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,270

    This tells you all you need to know about UK consumers' appreciation of seafood:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1301846557575335936

    What is chippy sauce?
    A question I dared not ask, for fear of revealing my elitist ignorance.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,070

    What is chippy sauce?

    Nectar of the gods
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    Or more likely they are identifying as undecided which does not equal silent Trump voters.
    Undecided voters tend to go with the status quo in the end, if they really wanted to get rid of Trump they would already be saying they will vote for Biden
    Wasn't it Peter Kellner who said:' those that don't know don't vote'? I think there is some truth in this anyway.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    He said McCain was a loser in an election because he, err, lost. He said he was a war hero because he was captured but he preferred people that were not captured.

    To be honest there is so much to criticise about Trump that it can be difficult to know where to start. I am not sure it should be here though.

    Trump is pointing out the hypocrisy around war heroes. That just because you get put into a foreign prison while you are in the service of your country, that puts you beyond any criticism for anything.

    Problem for Trump: that is the observation of the person he is - sneering metropolitan elite - and not the person he presents himself as - standing up for Mr and Mrs Ordinary who have a great respect for soldiers like McCain. What's changed now is that he is up against a challenger whose patriotism is in no doubt and who is making a pitch for the traditional values voter that Trump sees as his own.

    Hence the reverse ferret.
    One thing Trump is undoubtedly brilliant at is characterising opponents in a way that highlights their weaknesses. Little Marco, Lying Ted, Pocahontas, crooked Hillary etc. "Sleepy Joe" almost gets there but doesn't quite have the bite of some of his previous efforts. Trying to portray Biden as a raging socialist etc isn't really working either.

    I get the impression he is still looking for some of his wedges and missing live audiences to try them out on.
    “Hiden’ Biden” is being trialled on Twitter this week, playing into Pelosi’s idea that there shouldn’t be debates.
    The Trump campaign has successfully set the stage for the debates such that if Biden goes on stage and says Hello without spasming and collapsing it will be a huge success for Biden.

    This is worse expectation management than Gore vs Bush.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080

    DavidL said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    There are a lot of times when I think that this election is a bit like the Boris leadership election where people kept coming up with theories about why it was actually quite close but in fact it never was.

    And then I worry again.
    Oh yes, 100%.

    I still think Trumpton will win.

    But it’s hard to find any evidence for that view, other than my instinctive pessimism.
    Even Trump thought he was going to lose in 2016 while Hillary was preparing for her coronation.

    'Trump himself expected, based on polling, to lose the election, and rented a small hotel ballroom to make a brief concession speech; "I said if we're going to lose I don't want a big ballroom", he later remarked.

    Clinton was unable to make a public concession that night, as she had no concession speech written.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#Election_night
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    Fishing said:



    That’s a long-winded way to write: “i’m a layman pretending to be an expert”. Got it. Just as bad as Twitter.

    This site is full of those - I feel it whenever the conversation turns to my area of expertise, which it often does. As indeed is the entire Internet.

    (And no doubt I'm just as bad on other matters).
    To be fair, ‘layman pretending to be an expert‘ is the very essence of politics, and this is a politics site.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,053
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    Or more likely they are identifying as undecided which does not equal silent Trump voters.
    Undecided voters tend to go with the status quo in the end, if they really wanted to get rid of Trump they would already be saying they will vote for Biden
    All of them?
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,658

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    The thing is though, say we end up with sole (he he) rights to fish our waters - what then? The French, Spanish etc will carry on fishing in our waters as before even though it is against the rules. Will brexiters demand that this is enforced? How? What follows?
    Of course. Just like Iceland enforces it in their waters. That is what the navy is for.
    You want the Navy to get into altercations with fishing boats. Are you sure? What is Britain becoming?
    The Cod Wars wave a pectoral fin hello.

    Edit: albeit on the other side, so to speak.
    Very much an example of a small nation playing its cards right.
    Indeed, on paper Iceland should have been crushed into submission.

    In fact they won an overwhelmingly victory over the UK. And this was in the days when we still had a rather large navy.
    I did a tour of one of the cod war coastal vessels when in Iceland. Worth noting that they weren't anything special and there were very few of them (2, 3 or 4).

    But what was key is they had this enormous device for cutting net cables that they dragged behind them and the key bit is that these were fitted to all the large Icelandic trawlers. The distance between a fishing boat and their nets and the length of the cutting device cable crossing the net cables and the fact that Iceland could put so many out to sea meant it was impossible to protect the British trawlers from having their nets cut. They might not even see the trawler cutting their nets. Well that is the Icelander's story anyway.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,293

    kinabalu said:

    Also, race does not impact on pure deep self like gender does. Gender dysphoria - female in a male body and vice versa - is a real condition. There is no equivalent for race. Half black, half japanese "real self" born in a half white, quarter aboriginal, quarter mexican body? Don't think so. Sounds absurd because it IS absurd.

    Race however is important for people's sense of identity, because other people have made it important, so somehow those identities have to be decided. Who decides?

    There's an interesting book by a guy who grew up in Burundi, where they were the "white kids" because their Dad was European. In France they're black, of course. So who decides?

    This comes back to the argument Rowling put herself into. She's been told that she can't define her own identity as a woman, because other people are telling her what it has to be. Why is it that people born and brought up as men are the people who decide what a female identity is?

    I've grown up with the idea that there are only minimal intrinsic differences between the genders, beyond the reproductive essentials. So if someone wants to switch from one to the other it doesn't make much difference to me.

    But it means I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body. I don't think that's a useful message for kids who don't fit into gender stereotypes.
    Gender is more profound than race. The clue is in your first para. Race is only important to identity because of matters coming from without rather than within. The importance is imposed by prejudice and exploitation. If we could somehow really be colour blind - see and treat everybody exactly the same regardless of visible ethnic difference - race would disappear as a key indentifier in any politically or socially charged sense. It would become like hair colour. Which given it is skin colour, plus other purely physical externals, makes perfect sense.

    Not so for gender. Even if the patriarchy were to crumble, if women were to become fully emancipated and attain equal rights and power in every area of life, if we were to become truly gender blind, as it were, gender would remain an integral and fundamental part of an individual's identity. There is no difference between a black man and a white man. There is - and will always be - a difference between a black man and a black woman.

    This - what I'm saying here - plays both for and against what JK Rowling is driving at if you think about it.
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    Strong dumping your girlfriend after she's dumped you vibe from Andra here.

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1301822074982404096?s=20

    Expecting a 'Well, England didn't want to be in a Union with Scotland ANYWAY!' from him after Indy Ref II.
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    Linklaters is the first City firm to announce a long-term WFH policy, allowing its employees to work remotely for up to 50% of their time.

    The Magic Circle firm's policy permits its 5,200 staff around the world to work remotely for up to half of their time, provided they tell their teams in advance and subject to operational roles being fulfilled. The firm said its decision was intended to apply beyond the Covid-19 restrictions.

    https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/linklaters-tells-staff-they-can-work-remotely-50-time-setting-city-bar
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    Or more likely they are identifying as undecided which does not equal silent Trump voters.
    Undecided voters tend to go with the status quo in the end, if they really wanted to get rid of Trump they would already be saying they will vote for Biden
    Wasn't it Peter Kellner who said:' those that don't know don't vote'? I think there is some truth in this anyway.
    Not in Quebec's referendum in 1995 for example where don't knows went No and overturned a Yes lead to give No a 51% win
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,053
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    There are a lot of times when I think that this election is a bit like the Boris leadership election where people kept coming up with theories about why it was actually quite close but in fact it never was.

    And then I worry again.
    Oh yes, 100%.

    I still think Trumpton will win.

    But it’s hard to find any evidence for that view, other than my instinctive pessimism.
    Even Trump thought he was going to lose in 2016 while Hillary was preparing for her coronation.

    'Trump himself expected, based on polling, to lose the election, and rented a small hotel ballroom to make a brief concession speech; "I said if we're going to lose I don't want a big ballroom", he later remarked.

    Clinton was unable to make a public concession that night, as she had no concession speech written.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#Election_night
    How is this relevant?

    (Interesting passage however)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    There are a lot of times when I think that this election is a bit like the Boris leadership election where people kept coming up with theories about why it was actually quite close but in fact it never was.

    And then I worry again.
    Oh yes, 100%.

    I still think Trumpton will win.

    But it’s hard to find any evidence for that view, other than my instinctive pessimism.
    Even Trump thought he was going to lose in 2016 while Hillary was preparing for her coronation.

    'Trump himself expected, based on polling, to lose the election, and rented a small hotel ballroom to make a brief concession speech; "I said if we're going to lose I don't want a big ballroom", he later remarked.

    Clinton was unable to make a public concession that night, as she had no concession speech written.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#Election_night
    How is this relevant?

    (Interesting passage however)
    I fear some Democrats are already preparing for a Biden presidency while forgetting they still have to win the election
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    There are a lot of times when I think that this election is a bit like the Boris leadership election where people kept coming up with theories about why it was actually quite close but in fact it never was.

    And then I worry again.
    Oh yes, 100%.

    I still think Trumpton will win.

    But it’s hard to find any evidence for that view, other than my instinctive pessimism.
    Even Trump thought he was going to lose in 2016 while Hillary was preparing for her coronation.

    'Trump himself expected, based on polling, to lose the election, and rented a small hotel ballroom to make a brief concession speech; "I said if we're going to lose I don't want a big ballroom", he later remarked.

    Clinton was unable to make a public concession that night, as she had no concession speech written.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#Election_night
    Worse than that, she’d invited thousands of people to a massive ballroom, complete with symbolic glass ceiling, and kept them all waiting for hours before deciding to no-show.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,053

    Linklaters is the first City firm to announce a long-term WFH policy, allowing its employees to work remotely for up to 50% of their time.

    The Magic Circle firm's policy permits its 5,200 staff around the world to work remotely for up to half of their time, provided they tell their teams in advance and subject to operational roles being fulfilled. The firm said its decision was intended to apply beyond the Covid-19 restrictions.

    https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/linklaters-tells-staff-they-can-work-remotely-50-time-setting-city-bar

    Great move.

    Five day fortnight WFH is the way forward.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    edited September 2020
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    There are a lot of times when I think that this election is a bit like the Boris leadership election where people kept coming up with theories about why it was actually quite close but in fact it never was.

    And then I worry again.
    Oh yes, 100%.

    I still think Trumpton will win.

    But it’s hard to find any evidence for that view, other than my instinctive pessimism.
    Even Trump thought he was going to lose in 2016 while Hillary was preparing for her coronation.

    'Trump himself expected, based on polling, to lose the election, and rented a small hotel ballroom to make a brief concession speech; "I said if we're going to lose I don't want a big ballroom", he later remarked.

    Clinton was unable to make a public concession that night, as she had no concession speech written.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#Election_night
    Worse than that, she’d invited thousands of people to a massive ballroom, complete with symbolic glass ceiling, and kept them all waiting for hours before deciding to no-show.
    Yes her aides spent more time planning the format of her victory celebrations and the symbolism of the glass ceiling smashing in the huge ballroom they hired after the election of the first female president in the final days of that campaign than they did getting out the Democratic vote in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

    Meanwhile Trump was still holding a final rally in Michigan at midnight on eve of poll

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQdwG1xf5dg
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    He said McCain was a loser in an election because he, err, lost. He said he was a war hero because he was captured but he preferred people that were not captured.

    To be honest there is so much to criticise about Trump that it can be difficult to know where to start. I am not sure it should be here though.

    Trump is pointing out the hypocrisy around war heroes. That just because you get put into a foreign prison while you are in the service of your country, that puts you beyond any criticism for anything.

    Problem for Trump: that is the observation of the person he is - sneering metropolitan elite - and not the person he presents himself as - standing up for Mr and Mrs Ordinary who have a great respect for soldiers like McCain. What's changed now is that he is up against a challenger whose patriotism is in no doubt and who is making a pitch for the traditional values voter that Trump sees as his own.

    Hence the reverse ferret.
    One thing Trump is undoubtedly brilliant at is characterising opponents in a way that highlights their weaknesses. Little Marco, Lying Ted, Pocahontas, crooked Hillary etc. "Sleepy Joe" almost gets there but doesn't quite have the bite of some of his previous efforts. Trying to portray Biden as a raging socialist etc isn't really working either.

    I get the impression he is still looking for some of his wedges and missing live audiences to try them out on.
    It’s partly that he’s lost his sharpness (the clip in the thread header is a reminder of that), but I think rather more it’s just that Disser in Chief isn’t really what people look for in a president.

    Along those lines, he seems incapable of campaigning as an incumbent.

    ... Trump’s visit to Kenosha was notable because it had an actual political and policy goal. He was clearly concerned by the widespread criticism that it was ludicrous for an incumbent to point to the chaos engulfing the country on his watch and argue it was actually a harbinger of things to come if his opponent was elected. (The best distillation of the absurdity of this argument was a tweet by Students for Trump that showed the president standing in front of a building burned to the ground with the caption, “President @realDonaldTrump tours what Biden will do to America.”)...

    ... Presidents don’t always have policy tools at their disposal, but they find other ways to ease tensions during a crisis. This is not Trump’s strength, which became clear during remarks with reporters before he left for Kenosha and on the ground touring areas damaged in riots and at a roundtable discussion with local leaders.


    The contrast with the account of Biden’s visit which follows is marked
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,293
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    There are a lot of times when I think that this election is a bit like the Boris leadership election where people kept coming up with theories about why it was actually quite close but in fact it never was.

    And then I worry again.
    Oh yes, 100%.

    I still think Trumpton will win.

    But it’s hard to find any evidence for that view, other than my instinctive pessimism.
    Even Trump thought he was going to lose in 2016 while Hillary was preparing for her coronation.

    'Trump himself expected, based on polling, to lose the election, and rented a small hotel ballroom to make a brief concession speech; "I said if we're going to lose I don't want a big ballroom", he later remarked.

    Clinton was unable to make a public concession that night, as she had no concession speech written.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#Election_night
    Worse than that, she’d invited thousands of people to a massive ballroom, complete with symbolic glass ceiling, and kept them all waiting for hours before deciding to no-show.
    And then, having pulled herself together after probably the most traumatic event in her life, she conceded. Did not even mention the popular vote.

    Let's see how Donald Trump handles it this time.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,897

    This tells you all you need to know about UK consumers' appreciation of seafood:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1301846557575335936

    What is chippy sauce?
    That you ask is proof Scotland must be independent.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,261
    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    You do realise that the average Don't Knows/Third Party in the polls at this stage in 2016 ago was 20%, whereas now it is 7%. And Clinton's lead was less than 4%.

    Comparing to 2016 would probably make you think that Biden is nailed on.

  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,856
    edited September 2020

    This tells you all you need to know about UK consumers' appreciation of seafood:

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1301846557575335936

    What is chippy sauce?
    A rather runny brown sauce popular in the Edinburgh area and (I think) some other airts of Scotland. Basically ordinaryt brown sauce cut 1:1 with vinegar. Glaswegians contemn it.

    https://www.facebook.com/bbcradioscotland/videos/how-to-make-chippy-sauce/2079615688948603/
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,070
    edited September 2020
    Carnyx said:

    Glaswegians contemn it.

    Proof that Weegies are numpties
  • Options
    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    I'm starting to think you contribute some of the puns to ROF quite frankly
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,053
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    There are a lot of times when I think that this election is a bit like the Boris leadership election where people kept coming up with theories about why it was actually quite close but in fact it never was.

    And then I worry again.
    Oh yes, 100%.

    I still think Trumpton will win.

    But it’s hard to find any evidence for that view, other than my instinctive pessimism.
    Even Trump thought he was going to lose in 2016 while Hillary was preparing for her coronation.

    'Trump himself expected, based on polling, to lose the election, and rented a small hotel ballroom to make a brief concession speech; "I said if we're going to lose I don't want a big ballroom", he later remarked.

    Clinton was unable to make a public concession that night, as she had no concession speech written.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#Election_night
    How is this relevant?

    (Interesting passage however)
    I fear some Democrats are already preparing for a Biden presidency while forgetting they still have to win the election
    I see little evidence of that TBH.

    Most are fearful that the odious Trumpton will sneak in again via the back door.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,897
    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:



    That’s a long-winded way to write: “i’m a layman pretending to be an expert”. Got it. Just as bad as Twitter.

    This site is full of those - I feel it whenever the conversation turns to my area of expertise, which it often does. As indeed is the entire Internet.

    (And no doubt I'm just as bad on other matters).
    To be fair, ‘layman pretending to be an expert‘ is the very essence of politics, and this is a politics site.
    Well at it's best one hopes politics is less pretending to be an expert and more applying sound judgement taking account of relevant points including from experts, but the point is well made.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,897
    edited September 2020
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    There are a lot of times when I think that this election is a bit like the Boris leadership election where people kept coming up with theories about why it was actually quite close but in fact it never was.

    And then I worry again.
    Oh yes, 100%.

    I still think Trumpton will win.

    But it’s hard to find any evidence for that view, other than my instinctive pessimism.
    Even Trump thought he was going to lose in 2016 while Hillary was preparing for her coronation.

    'Trump himself expected, based on polling, to lose the election, and rented a small hotel ballroom to make a brief concession speech; "I said if we're going to lose I don't want a big ballroom", he later remarked.

    Clinton was unable to make a public concession that night, as she had no concession speech written.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#Election_night
    What, she couldn't come up with a few words of commiseration on the fly? 'I acknowledge the win of my opponent and hope he will choose to govern well. Now I'd like to thank my supporters who share in my disappointment etc etc'
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    Or more likely they are identifying as undecided which does not equal silent Trump voters.
    Undecided voters tend to go with the status quo in the end, if they really wanted to get rid of Trump they would already be saying they will vote for Biden
    I don't overly agree with that. The undecided didn't go for the status quo for Brexit, nor even US 2016 where Clinton could be seen as status quo, Trump won undecided in final week by around 50-35. There could be many reasons people have still not committed to Trump or Biden.

    From current polling I just don't see Trump gaining 3-4% of the left over 7, some will still fall over to Biden.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    He said McCain was a loser in an election because he, err, lost. He said he was a war hero because he was captured but he preferred people that were not captured.

    To be honest there is so much to criticise about Trump that it can be difficult to know where to start. I am not sure it should be here though.

    Trump is pointing out the hypocrisy around war heroes. That just because you get put into a foreign prison while you are in the service of your country, that puts you beyond any criticism for anything.

    Problem for Trump: that is the observation of the person he is - sneering metropolitan elite - and not the person he presents himself as - standing up for Mr and Mrs Ordinary who have a great respect for soldiers like McCain. What's changed now is that he is up against a challenger whose patriotism is in no doubt and who is making a pitch for the traditional values voter that Trump sees as his own.

    Hence the reverse ferret.
    One thing Trump is undoubtedly brilliant at is characterising opponents in a way that highlights their weaknesses. Little Marco, Lying Ted, Pocahontas, crooked Hillary etc. "Sleepy Joe" almost gets there but doesn't quite have the bite of some of his previous efforts. Trying to portray Biden as a raging socialist etc isn't really working either.

    I get the impression he is still looking for some of his wedges and missing live audiences to try them out on.
    “Hiden’ Biden” is being trialled on Twitter this week, playing into Pelosi’s idea that there shouldn’t be debates.
    Isn’t that just more lowering of expectations for Biden ?
    When he turns up and performs adequately, he’ll likely then be awarded the win.

    And it’s not as though Trump’s camp aren’t expecting the debates to happen:
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/04/trump-biden-presidential-debate-prep-408651

    I’m not convinced the Republicans have a coherent theory of this campaign.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,736
    Why hasn`t Sweden been put on the no-quarantine travel list?

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    You do realise that the average Don't Knows/Third Party in the polls at this stage in 2016 ago was 20%, whereas now it is 7%. And Clinton's lead was less than 4%.

    Comparing to 2016 would probably make you think that Biden is nailed on.

    Depends which poll, ABC on 5th to 8th September had it Clinton 51% Trump 43% in a 2 way matchup ie very close to the polls now and Clinton 46% Trump 41% with third party candidates



    https://www.langerresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/1181a12016Election.pdf
  • Options
    Grandiose said:

    I'm starting to think you contribute some of the puns to ROF quite frankly
    No comment.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,856
    edited September 2020
    kjh said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    The thing is though, say we end up with sole (he he) rights to fish our waters - what then? The French, Spanish etc will carry on fishing in our waters as before even though it is against the rules. Will brexiters demand that this is enforced? How? What follows?
    Of course. Just like Iceland enforces it in their waters. That is what the navy is for.
    You want the Navy to get into altercations with fishing boats. Are you sure? What is Britain becoming?
    The Cod Wars wave a pectoral fin hello.

    Edit: albeit on the other side, so to speak.
    Very much an example of a small nation playing its cards right.
    Indeed, on paper Iceland should have been crushed into submission.

    In fact they won an overwhelmingly victory over the UK. And this was in the days when we still had a rather large navy.
    I did a tour of one of the cod war coastal vessels when in Iceland. Worth noting that they weren't anything special and there were very few of them (2, 3 or 4).

    But what was key is they had this enormous device for cutting net cables that they dragged behind them and the key bit is that these were fitted to all the large Icelandic trawlers. The distance between a fishing boat and their nets and the length of the cutting device cable crossing the net cables and the fact that Iceland could put so many out to sea meant it was impossible to protect the British trawlers from having their nets cut. They might not even see the trawler cutting their nets. Well that is the Icelander's story anyway.
    Coincidentally just been reading about the Royal Navy's use of trawlers for auxiliary roles such as minesweeping in the Great War and WW2. But the UK's trawlers will be too busy fishing for cod to be Taken Up from Trade for netcutting. No doubt the PBTories will tell us there will be oodles of trawlers up for sale on the other side of La Manche.

    Edit: cutting nets would be very much frowned upon today (after that Sir D. Attenborough TV series). Tangling up whales, etc. Not good optics.

    Was this ship in a museum, BTW? I adore preserved ships and had been thinking of an Icelandic hols (for other reasons).
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,370
    Stocky said:

    Why hasn`t Sweden been put on the no-quarantine travel list?

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

    I misread one of those stats as saying 70,837 people are in mint condition.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,261
    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    You do realise that the average Don't Knows/Third Party in the polls at this stage in 2016 ago was 20%, whereas now it is 7%. And Clinton's lead was less than 4%.

    Comparing to 2016 would probably make you think that Biden is nailed on.

    Depends which poll, ABC on 5th to 8th September had it Clinton 51% Trump 43% in a 2 way matchup ie very close to the polls now and Clinton 46% Trump 41% with third party candidates



    https://www.langerresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/1181a12016Election.pdf
    Do you know the meaning of the word "average"? You even used it in your own post that I was replying to.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    edited September 2020
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    He said McCain was a loser in an election because he, err, lost. He said he was a war hero because he was captured but he preferred people that were not captured.

    To be honest there is so much to criticise about Trump that it can be difficult to know where to start. I am not sure it should be here though.

    Trump is pointing out the hypocrisy around war heroes. That just because you get put into a foreign prison while you are in the service of your country, that puts you beyond any criticism for anything.

    Problem for Trump: that is the observation of the person he is - sneering metropolitan elite - and not the person he presents himself as - standing up for Mr and Mrs Ordinary who have a great respect for soldiers like McCain. What's changed now is that he is up against a challenger whose patriotism is in no doubt and who is making a pitch for the traditional values voter that Trump sees as his own.

    Hence the reverse ferret.
    One thing Trump is undoubtedly brilliant at is characterising opponents in a way that highlights their weaknesses. Little Marco, Lying Ted, Pocahontas, crooked Hillary etc. "Sleepy Joe" almost gets there but doesn't quite have the bite of some of his previous efforts. Trying to portray Biden as a raging socialist etc isn't really working either.

    I get the impression he is still looking for some of his wedges and missing live audiences to try them out on.
    “Hiden’ Biden” is being trialled on Twitter this week, playing into Pelosi’s idea that there shouldn’t be debates.
    Isn’t that just more lowering of expectations for Biden ?
    When he turns up and performs adequately, he’ll likely then be awarded the win.

    And it’s not as though Trump’s camp aren’t expecting the debates to happen:
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/04/trump-biden-presidential-debate-prep-408651

    I’m not convinced the Republicans have a coherent theory of this campaign.
    They’re trying to build a narrative that Biden is hiding in his basement, which to be fair he pretty much did for a couple of months before the convention.

    Yes, the risk of that strategy is that Biden has a low bar to get over in the debates.

    Both of them managed to mumble and stumble through speeches last week, I’m not sure either of them are close to mentally cognisant. @Morris_Dancer said it best right at the start of this thread.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    Or more likely they are identifying as undecided which does not equal silent Trump voters.
    Undecided voters tend to go with the status quo in the end, if they really wanted to get rid of Trump they would already be saying they will vote for Biden
    Wasn't it Peter Kellner who said:' those that don't know don't vote'? I think there is some truth in this anyway.
    Not in Quebec's referendum in 1995 for example where don't knows went No and overturned a Yes lead to give No a 51% win
    You say this all the time but there is no factual basis for it.

    In the 2 months during the campaign there were 23 polls of which 13 gave a No lead, 9 gave a Yes lead and 1 had a tie.

    The polling average across those polls of Yes 42.6 and No 43.8 - converting that to a 100% share that becomes Yes 49.3 to No 50.7 - compared with the actual results of Yes 49.42 and No 50.58

    There is absolutely no evidence here that Don't Knows influenced the vote at all.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,293
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Also, race does not impact on pure deep self like gender does. Gender dysphoria - female in a male body and vice versa - is a real condition. There is no equivalent for race. Half black, half japanese "real self" born in a half white, quarter aboriginal, quarter mexican body? Don't think so. Sounds absurd because it IS absurd.

    Race however is important for people's sense of identity, because other people have made it important, so somehow those identities have to be decided. Who decides?

    There's an interesting book by a guy who grew up in Burundi, where they were the "white kids" because their Dad was European. In France they're black, of course. So who decides?

    This comes back to the argument Rowling put herself into. She's been told that she can't define her own identity as a woman, because other people are telling her what it has to be. Why is it that people born and brought up as men are the people who decide what a female identity is?

    I've grown up with the idea that there are only minimal intrinsic differences between the genders, beyond the reproductive essentials. So if someone wants to switch from one to the other it doesn't make much difference to me.

    But it means I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body. I don't think that's a useful message for kids who don't fit into gender stereotypes.
    "I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body."

    It can`t - it`s nonsense. It`s a psychiatric condition, gender dysphoria, and is about what people "feel" rather than facts - i.e. it can`t be disproved by evidence. A non-falsifiable claim if you like.

    Kinabalu thinks we should pander to this. I don`t.
    Not pander. Treat in the way that is best for the afflicted and harms no-one else. The alternative of denying the condition and the treatment would bring misery to many and would also be going backwards since the right to transgender has been recognized for some time.
    There’s been a right to transition gender for some time, that is true.

    The notion that one can choose their own gender, and then without any actual medical treatment or surgery have the ‘right’ to invade women’s safe spaces such as changing rooms and sporting competitions, is quite recent.

    It’s actually possible to pinpoint the date when the recent trans stuff started in the USA, it was 27th June 2015, the day after the Supreme Court ruled gay marriage legal. For the woke campaigners, trans issues were simply next on the list after they ‘won’ gay marriage.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges
    There does need to be protections around women's sport and in one or two other areas. And there does need to be a (not self) diagnosis of dysphoria. I'm not on the extreme edge of this debate. But the idea that people will be switching in and out of genders at the drop of a hat, or that men will ID as women purely in order to invade female changing rooms and toilets is scaremongering. You mention gay rights and it is relevant in that this sort of stuff is similar to that used by antis to fight that battle. They lost but it was effective for quite some time in delaying the defeat. So they are giving it another whirl here.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,261

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    Or more likely they are identifying as undecided which does not equal silent Trump voters.
    Undecided voters tend to go with the status quo in the end, if they really wanted to get rid of Trump they would already be saying they will vote for Biden
    Wasn't it Peter Kellner who said:' those that don't know don't vote'? I think there is some truth in this anyway.
    Not in Quebec's referendum in 1995 for example where don't knows went No and overturned a Yes lead to give No a 51% win
    You say this all the time but there is no factual basis for it.

    In the 2 months during the campaign there were 23 polls of which 13 gave a No lead, 9 gave a Yes lead and 1 had a tie.

    The polling average across those polls of Yes 42.6 and No 43.8 - converting that to a 100% share that becomes Yes 49.3 to No 50.7 - compared with the actual results of Yes 49.42 and No 50.58

    There is absolutely no evidence here that Don't Knows influenced the vote at all.
    Indeed, if you added all the Don't Knows to HYUFD's favoured side like he wants to do, then No should have won by a double-digit margin, rather than a knife-edge.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    edited September 2020
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731

    Strong dumping your girlfriend after she's dumped you vibe from Andra here.

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1301822074982404096?s=20

    Expecting a 'Well, England didn't want to be in a Union with Scotland ANYWAY!' from him after Indy Ref II.

    Isn’t there a law against perpetuities ?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    Top notch analysis in the comments here

    https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/3698
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,658
    Carnyx said:

    kjh said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    The thing is though, say we end up with sole (he he) rights to fish our waters - what then? The French, Spanish etc will carry on fishing in our waters as before even though it is against the rules. Will brexiters demand that this is enforced? How? What follows?
    Of course. Just like Iceland enforces it in their waters. That is what the navy is for.
    You want the Navy to get into altercations with fishing boats. Are you sure? What is Britain becoming?
    The Cod Wars wave a pectoral fin hello.

    Edit: albeit on the other side, so to speak.
    Very much an example of a small nation playing its cards right.
    Indeed, on paper Iceland should have been crushed into submission.

    In fact they won an overwhelmingly victory over the UK. And this was in the days when we still had a rather large navy.
    I did a tour of one of the cod war coastal vessels when in Iceland. Worth noting that they weren't anything special and there were very few of them (2, 3 or 4).

    But what was key is they had this enormous device for cutting net cables that they dragged behind them and the key bit is that these were fitted to all the large Icelandic trawlers. The distance between a fishing boat and their nets and the length of the cutting device cable crossing the net cables and the fact that Iceland could put so many out to sea meant it was impossible to protect the British trawlers from having their nets cut. They might not even see the trawler cutting their nets. Well that is the Icelander's story anyway.
    Coincidentally just been reading about the Royal Navy's use of trawlers for auxiliary roles such as minesweeping in the Great War and WW2. But the UK's trawlers will be too busy fishing for cod to be Taken Up from Trade for netcutting. No doubt the PBTories will tell us there will be oodles of trawlers up for sale on the other side of La Manche.

    Edit: cutting nets would be very much frowned upon today (after that Sir D. Attenborough TV series). Tangling up whales, etc. Not good optics.

    Was this ship in a museum, BTW? I adore preserved ships and had been thinking of an Icelandic hols (for other reasons).
    No in the water adjacent to the museum. Holiday great. Usual stuff done - waterfalls, geysers, whales, northern lights (failed|) hot springs at night, etc. We had the tour of the coastal vessel to ourselves. The guy was a little hesitant as how to pitch it, you know we being the enemy! But we told him to go for it and he was great.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,736
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Also, race does not impact on pure deep self like gender does. Gender dysphoria - female in a male body and vice versa - is a real condition. There is no equivalent for race. Half black, half japanese "real self" born in a half white, quarter aboriginal, quarter mexican body? Don't think so. Sounds absurd because it IS absurd.

    Race however is important for people's sense of identity, because other people have made it important, so somehow those identities have to be decided. Who decides?

    There's an interesting book by a guy who grew up in Burundi, where they were the "white kids" because their Dad was European. In France they're black, of course. So who decides?

    This comes back to the argument Rowling put herself into. She's been told that she can't define her own identity as a woman, because other people are telling her what it has to be. Why is it that people born and brought up as men are the people who decide what a female identity is?

    I've grown up with the idea that there are only minimal intrinsic differences between the genders, beyond the reproductive essentials. So if someone wants to switch from one to the other it doesn't make much difference to me.

    But it means I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body. I don't think that's a useful message for kids who don't fit into gender stereotypes.
    "I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body."

    It can`t - it`s nonsense. It`s a psychiatric condition, gender dysphoria, and is about what people "feel" rather than facts - i.e. it can`t be disproved by evidence. A non-falsifiable claim if you like.

    Kinabalu thinks we should pander to this. I don`t.
    Not pander. Treat in the way that is best for the afflicted and harms no-one else. The alternative of denying the condition and the treatment would bring misery to many and would also be going backwards since the right to transgender has been recognized for some time.
    There’s been a right to transition gender for some time, that is true.

    The notion that one can choose their own gender, and then without any actual medical treatment or surgery have the ‘right’ to invade women’s safe spaces such as changing rooms and sporting competitions, is quite recent.

    It’s actually possible to pinpoint the date when the recent trans stuff started in the USA, it was 27th June 2015, the day after the Supreme Court ruled gay marriage legal. For the woke campaigners, trans issues were simply next on the list after they ‘won’ gay marriage.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges
    There does need to be protections around women's sport and in one or two other areas. And there does need to be a (not self) diagnosis of dysphoria. I'm not on the extreme edge of this debate. But the idea that people will be switching in and out of genders at the drop of a hat, or that men will ID as women purely in order to invade female changing rooms and toilets is scaremongering. You mention gay rights and it is relevant in that this sort of stuff is similar to that used by antis to fight that battle. They lost but it was effective for quite some time in delaying the defeat. So they are giving it another whirl here.
    I agree with you on this. The toilet/sport issue is a curious one for me. The differentiation between sex and gender is a newish construct. Toilets and sports have always been along sex lines, not gender. Obvious when you think about it - gender didn`t exist before the 50s when it was invented.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    Or more likely they are identifying as undecided which does not equal silent Trump voters.
    Undecided voters tend to go with the status quo in the end, if they really wanted to get rid of Trump they would already be saying they will vote for Biden
    Wasn't it Peter Kellner who said:' those that don't know don't vote'? I think there is some truth in this anyway.
    Not in Quebec's referendum in 1995 for example where don't knows went No and overturned a Yes lead to give No a 51% win
    You say this all the time but there is no factual basis for it.

    In the 2 months during the campaign there were 23 polls of which 13 gave a No lead, 9 gave a Yes lead and 1 had a tie.

    The polling average across those polls of Yes 42.6 and No 43.8 - converting that to a 100% share that becomes Yes 49.3 to No 50.7 - compared with the actual results of Yes 49.42 and No 50.58

    There is absolutely no evidence here that Don't Knows influenced the vote at all.
    Final 3 polls in Quebec in 1995

    Leger Yes 47% No 41% Don't Knows 6%

    SOM Yes 46% No 40% Don't Knows 14%

    Angus Reid Yes 48% No 44% Don't Knows 8%

    No won 51% to 49%

    So as I correctly said don't knows won it for No

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,856
    kjh said:

    Carnyx said:

    kjh said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    The thing is though, say we end up with sole (he he) rights to fish our waters - what then? The French, Spanish etc will carry on fishing in our waters as before even though it is against the rules. Will brexiters demand that this is enforced? How? What follows?
    Of course. Just like Iceland enforces it in their waters. That is what the navy is for.
    You want the Navy to get into altercations with fishing boats. Are you sure? What is Britain becoming?
    The Cod Wars wave a pectoral fin hello.

    Edit: albeit on the other side, so to speak.
    Very much an example of a small nation playing its cards right.
    Indeed, on paper Iceland should have been crushed into submission.

    In fact they won an overwhelmingly victory over the UK. And this was in the days when we still had a rather large navy.
    I did a tour of one of the cod war coastal vessels when in Iceland. Worth noting that they weren't anything special and there were very few of them (2, 3 or 4).

    But what was key is they had this enormous device for cutting net cables that they dragged behind them and the key bit is that these were fitted to all the large Icelandic trawlers. The distance between a fishing boat and their nets and the length of the cutting device cable crossing the net cables and the fact that Iceland could put so many out to sea meant it was impossible to protect the British trawlers from having their nets cut. They might not even see the trawler cutting their nets. Well that is the Icelander's story anyway.
    Coincidentally just been reading about the Royal Navy's use of trawlers for auxiliary roles such as minesweeping in the Great War and WW2. But the UK's trawlers will be too busy fishing for cod to be Taken Up from Trade for netcutting. No doubt the PBTories will tell us there will be oodles of trawlers up for sale on the other side of La Manche.

    Edit: cutting nets would be very much frowned upon today (after that Sir D. Attenborough TV series). Tangling up whales, etc. Not good optics.

    Was this ship in a museum, BTW? I adore preserved ships and had been thinking of an Icelandic hols (for other reasons).
    No in the water adjacent to the museum. Holiday great. Usual stuff done - waterfalls, geysers, whales, northern lights (failed|) hot springs at night, etc. We had the tour of the coastal vessel to ourselves. The guy was a little hesitant as how to pitch it, you know we being the enemy! But we told him to go for it and he was great.
    Excellent, thank you. A little google brings up the Coast Guard Vessel Óðinn at Reykjavik Maritine Museum,
    https://reykjavikcitymuseum.is/reykjavik-maritime-museum/odinn

    which must be it. Duly noted.

    This cutter is what you were talking about, I take it?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-41122728
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081
    edited September 2020
    HYUFD said:
    Those Co-op jobs will be undoubtably be worse in terms of pay.
    Better than nothing, but not something to celebrate.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Also, race does not impact on pure deep self like gender does. Gender dysphoria - female in a male body and vice versa - is a real condition. There is no equivalent for race. Half black, half japanese "real self" born in a half white, quarter aboriginal, quarter mexican body? Don't think so. Sounds absurd because it IS absurd.

    Race however is important for people's sense of identity, because other people have made it important, so somehow those identities have to be decided. Who decides?

    There's an interesting book by a guy who grew up in Burundi, where they were the "white kids" because their Dad was European. In France they're black, of course. So who decides?

    This comes back to the argument Rowling put herself into. She's been told that she can't define her own identity as a woman, because other people are telling her what it has to be. Why is it that people born and brought up as men are the people who decide what a female identity is?

    I've grown up with the idea that there are only minimal intrinsic differences between the genders, beyond the reproductive essentials. So if someone wants to switch from one to the other it doesn't make much difference to me.

    But it means I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body. I don't think that's a useful message for kids who don't fit into gender stereotypes.
    "I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body."

    It can`t - it`s nonsense. It`s a psychiatric condition, gender dysphoria, and is about what people "feel" rather than facts - i.e. it can`t be disproved by evidence. A non-falsifiable claim if you like.

    Kinabalu thinks we should pander to this. I don`t.
    Not pander. Treat in the way that is best for the afflicted and harms no-one else. The alternative of denying the condition and the treatment would bring misery to many and would also be going backwards since the right to transgender has been recognized for some time.
    There’s been a right to transition gender for some time, that is true.

    The notion that one can choose their own gender, and then without any actual medical treatment or surgery have the ‘right’ to invade women’s safe spaces such as changing rooms and sporting competitions, is quite recent.

    It’s actually possible to pinpoint the date when the recent trans stuff started in the USA, it was 27th June 2015, the day after the Supreme Court ruled gay marriage legal. For the woke campaigners, trans issues were simply next on the list after they ‘won’ gay marriage.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges
    There does need to be protections around women's sport and in one or two other areas. And there does need to be a (not self) diagnosis of dysphoria. I'm not on the extreme edge of this debate. But the idea that people will be switching in and out of genders at the drop of a hat, or that men will ID as women purely in order to invade female changing rooms and toilets is scaremongering. You mention gay rights and it is relevant in that this sort of stuff is similar to that used by antis to fight that battle. They lost but it was effective for quite some time in delaying the defeat. So they are giving it another whirl here.
    I agree with you on this. The toilet/sport issue is a curious one for me. The differentiation between sex and gender is a newish construct. Toilets and sports have always been along sex lines, not gender. Obvious when you think about it - gender didn`t exist before the 50s when it was invented.
    That will be news to those who studied Latin.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,504
    NHS England hospital numbers

    Headline - 11
    7 Days - 9
    Yesterday - 0

    image
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    StockyStocky Posts: 9,736
    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Also, race does not impact on pure deep self like gender does. Gender dysphoria - female in a male body and vice versa - is a real condition. There is no equivalent for race. Half black, half japanese "real self" born in a half white, quarter aboriginal, quarter mexican body? Don't think so. Sounds absurd because it IS absurd.

    Race however is important for people's sense of identity, because other people have made it important, so somehow those identities have to be decided. Who decides?

    There's an interesting book by a guy who grew up in Burundi, where they were the "white kids" because their Dad was European. In France they're black, of course. So who decides?

    This comes back to the argument Rowling put herself into. She's been told that she can't define her own identity as a woman, because other people are telling her what it has to be. Why is it that people born and brought up as men are the people who decide what a female identity is?

    I've grown up with the idea that there are only minimal intrinsic differences between the genders, beyond the reproductive essentials. So if someone wants to switch from one to the other it doesn't make much difference to me.

    But it means I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body. I don't think that's a useful message for kids who don't fit into gender stereotypes.
    "I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body."

    It can`t - it`s nonsense. It`s a psychiatric condition, gender dysphoria, and is about what people "feel" rather than facts - i.e. it can`t be disproved by evidence. A non-falsifiable claim if you like.

    Kinabalu thinks we should pander to this. I don`t.
    Not pander. Treat in the way that is best for the afflicted and harms no-one else. The alternative of denying the condition and the treatment would bring misery to many and would also be going backwards since the right to transgender has been recognized for some time.
    There’s been a right to transition gender for some time, that is true.

    The notion that one can choose their own gender, and then without any actual medical treatment or surgery have the ‘right’ to invade women’s safe spaces such as changing rooms and sporting competitions, is quite recent.

    It’s actually possible to pinpoint the date when the recent trans stuff started in the USA, it was 27th June 2015, the day after the Supreme Court ruled gay marriage legal. For the woke campaigners, trans issues were simply next on the list after they ‘won’ gay marriage.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges
    There does need to be protections around women's sport and in one or two other areas. And there does need to be a (not self) diagnosis of dysphoria. I'm not on the extreme edge of this debate. But the idea that people will be switching in and out of genders at the drop of a hat, or that men will ID as women purely in order to invade female changing rooms and toilets is scaremongering. You mention gay rights and it is relevant in that this sort of stuff is similar to that used by antis to fight that battle. They lost but it was effective for quite some time in delaying the defeat. So they are giving it another whirl here.
    I agree with you on this. The toilet/sport issue is a curious one for me. The differentiation between sex and gender is a newish construct. Toilets and sports have always been along sex lines, not gender. Obvious when you think about it - gender didn`t exist before the 50s when it was invented.
    That will be news to those who studied Latin.
    Ha ha - nice one.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,856
    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Also, race does not impact on pure deep self like gender does. Gender dysphoria - female in a male body and vice versa - is a real condition. There is no equivalent for race. Half black, half japanese "real self" born in a half white, quarter aboriginal, quarter mexican body? Don't think so. Sounds absurd because it IS absurd.

    Race however is important for people's sense of identity, because other people have made it important, so somehow those identities have to be decided. Who decides?

    There's an interesting book by a guy who grew up in Burundi, where they were the "white kids" because their Dad was European. In France they're black, of course. So who decides?

    This comes back to the argument Rowling put herself into. She's been told that she can't define her own identity as a woman, because other people are telling her what it has to be. Why is it that people born and brought up as men are the people who decide what a female identity is?

    I've grown up with the idea that there are only minimal intrinsic differences between the genders, beyond the reproductive essentials. So if someone wants to switch from one to the other it doesn't make much difference to me.

    But it means I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body. I don't think that's a useful message for kids who don't fit into gender stereotypes.
    "I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body."

    It can`t - it`s nonsense. It`s a psychiatric condition, gender dysphoria, and is about what people "feel" rather than facts - i.e. it can`t be disproved by evidence. A non-falsifiable claim if you like.

    Kinabalu thinks we should pander to this. I don`t.
    Not pander. Treat in the way that is best for the afflicted and harms no-one else. The alternative of denying the condition and the treatment would bring misery to many and would also be going backwards since the right to transgender has been recognized for some time.
    There’s been a right to transition gender for some time, that is true.

    The notion that one can choose their own gender, and then without any actual medical treatment or surgery have the ‘right’ to invade women’s safe spaces such as changing rooms and sporting competitions, is quite recent.

    It’s actually possible to pinpoint the date when the recent trans stuff started in the USA, it was 27th June 2015, the day after the Supreme Court ruled gay marriage legal. For the woke campaigners, trans issues were simply next on the list after they ‘won’ gay marriage.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges
    There does need to be protections around women's sport and in one or two other areas. And there does need to be a (not self) diagnosis of dysphoria. I'm not on the extreme edge of this debate. But the idea that people will be switching in and out of genders at the drop of a hat, or that men will ID as women purely in order to invade female changing rooms and toilets is scaremongering. You mention gay rights and it is relevant in that this sort of stuff is similar to that used by antis to fight that battle. They lost but it was effective for quite some time in delaying the defeat. So they are giving it another whirl here.
    I agree with you on this. The toilet/sport issue is a curious one for me. The differentiation between sex and gender is a newish construct. Toilets and sports have always been along sex lines, not gender. Obvious when you think about it - gender didn`t exist before the 50s when it was invented.
    That will be news to those who studied Latin.
    And Ancient Greek.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,070
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    Or more likely they are identifying as undecided which does not equal silent Trump voters.
    Undecided voters tend to go with the status quo in the end, if they really wanted to get rid of Trump they would already be saying they will vote for Biden
    Wasn't it Peter Kellner who said:' those that don't know don't vote'? I think there is some truth in this anyway.
    Not in Quebec's referendum in 1995 for example where don't knows went No and overturned a Yes lead to give No a 51% win
    You say this all the time but there is no factual basis for it.

    In the 2 months during the campaign there were 23 polls of which 13 gave a No lead, 9 gave a Yes lead and 1 had a tie.

    The polling average across those polls of Yes 42.6 and No 43.8 - converting that to a 100% share that becomes Yes 49.3 to No 50.7 - compared with the actual results of Yes 49.42 and No 50.58

    There is absolutely no evidence here that Don't Knows influenced the vote at all.
    Final 3 polls in Quebec in 1995

    Leger Yes 47% No 41% Don't Knows 6%

    SOM Yes 46% No 40% Don't Knows 14%

    Angus Reid Yes 48% No 44% Don't Knows 8%

    No won 51% to 49%

    So as I correctly said don't knows won it for No

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum
    No you're incorrect as there is no justification for cherrypicking the polls that you like and excluding the rest.

    If the don't knows won it for No, that's only possible if you're claiming that the Don't Knows had swung to Yes the week before. The reality is it was a very split vote and the polls accurately represented that . . . just as they did in 2016 when many polls gave Brexit the lead, even though many final polls gave Remain the lead.

    We aren't at the final poll stage. There is absolutely zero justification for looking at the poll that suits you rather than all of them. Indeed the fact is that No were in the lead in more polls than Yes were.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,731
    If Trump does lose, at least Pence has a potential career in standup.

    https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1301584123627286528
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    Nigelb said:

    Strong dumping your girlfriend after she's dumped you vibe from Andra here.

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1301822074982404096?s=20

    Expecting a 'Well, England didn't want to be in a Union with Scotland ANYWAY!' from him after Indy Ref II.

    Isn’t there a law against perpetuities ?
    No Spectator editor can bind their successor?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,270
    Scott_xP said:
    Another vanity by-election for Haltemprice and Howden?
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Scott_xP said:
    Wonder what odds he is for caretaker PM....!!!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    National polling so far today is rather good for Biden.

    All surveys released so far have his lead at +9 or better.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

    On that average Biden is at 50.3% Trump at 43% nationally in the popular vote today.

    So unless 7% of voters are now going third party, up from 6% in 2016 there could still be a lot of 'silent' Trump voters
    Or more likely they are identifying as undecided which does not equal silent Trump voters.
    Undecided voters tend to go with the status quo in the end, if they really wanted to get rid of Trump they would already be saying they will vote for Biden
    Wasn't it Peter Kellner who said:' those that don't know don't vote'? I think there is some truth in this anyway.
    Not in Quebec's referendum in 1995 for example where don't knows went No and overturned a Yes lead to give No a 51% win
    You say this all the time but there is no factual basis for it.

    In the 2 months during the campaign there were 23 polls of which 13 gave a No lead, 9 gave a Yes lead and 1 had a tie.

    The polling average across those polls of Yes 42.6 and No 43.8 - converting that to a 100% share that becomes Yes 49.3 to No 50.7 - compared with the actual results of Yes 49.42 and No 50.58

    There is absolutely no evidence here that Don't Knows influenced the vote at all.
    Final 3 polls in Quebec in 1995

    Leger Yes 47% No 41% Don't Knows 6%

    SOM Yes 46% No 40% Don't Knows 14%

    Angus Reid Yes 48% No 44% Don't Knows 8%

    No won 51% to 49%

    So as I correctly said don't knows won it for No

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum
    No you're incorrect as there is no justification for cherrypicking the polls that you like and excluding the rest.

    If the don't knows won it for No, that's only possible if you're claiming that the Don't Knows had swung to Yes the week before. The reality is it was a very split vote and the polls accurately represented that . . . just as they did in 2016 when many polls gave Brexit the lead, even though many final polls gave Remain the lead.

    We aren't at the final poll stage. There is absolutely zero justification for looking at the poll that suits you rather than all of them. Indeed the fact is that No were in the lead in more polls than Yes were.
    No I am absolutely correct.

    Not one poll in the final week in the Quebec referendum had No ahead, Opinium, TNS and Yougov all had at least 1 poll with Leave ahead in the final week in 2016.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

    However we already have one Trump election to compare with and his polling now is little different to then
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    edited September 2020
    So reality is once again at odds with what a lot of the press, politicians, and rent-a-gobs have been saying.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    Nigelb said:

    If Trump does lose, at least Pence has a potential career in standup.

    https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1301584123627286528

    If Trump does lose Pence will likely run in 2024
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    One dog that won't bark is the Supreme court this election cycle. The conservative majority is basically secure for the 2020 - 2024 cycle. Was a much bigger issue in 2016 and a driver of some GOP turnout amongst those who might not be a fan of Trump personally.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,504
    edited September 2020
    glw said:

    So reality is once again at odds with what a lot of the press, politicians, and rent-a-gobs have been saying.
    This is what I have been saying here -

    image

    shows that the community level is unchanging

    image

    shows we are finding more cases.

    Edited - they are talking in the report about the latest update of the ONS survey, which shows no change...

    image
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,658
    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Also, race does not impact on pure deep self like gender does. Gender dysphoria - female in a male body and vice versa - is a real condition. There is no equivalent for race. Half black, half japanese "real self" born in a half white, quarter aboriginal, quarter mexican body? Don't think so. Sounds absurd because it IS absurd.

    Race however is important for people's sense of identity, because other people have made it important, so somehow those identities have to be decided. Who decides?

    There's an interesting book by a guy who grew up in Burundi, where they were the "white kids" because their Dad was European. In France they're black, of course. So who decides?

    This comes back to the argument Rowling put herself into. She's been told that she can't define her own identity as a woman, because other people are telling her what it has to be. Why is it that people born and brought up as men are the people who decide what a female identity is?

    I've grown up with the idea that there are only minimal intrinsic differences between the genders, beyond the reproductive essentials. So if someone wants to switch from one to the other it doesn't make much difference to me.

    But it means I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body. I don't think that's a useful message for kids who don't fit into gender stereotypes.
    "I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body."

    It can`t - it`s nonsense. It`s a psychiatric condition, gender dysphoria, and is about what people "feel" rather than facts - i.e. it can`t be disproved by evidence. A non-falsifiable claim if you like.

    Kinabalu thinks we should pander to this. I don`t.
    Not pander. Treat in the way that is best for the afflicted and harms no-one else. The alternative of denying the condition and the treatment would bring misery to many and would also be going backwards since the right to transgender has been recognized for some time.
    There’s been a right to transition gender for some time, that is true.

    The notion that one can choose their own gender, and then without any actual medical treatment or surgery have the ‘right’ to invade women’s safe spaces such as changing rooms and sporting competitions, is quite recent.

    It’s actually possible to pinpoint the date when the recent trans stuff started in the USA, it was 27th June 2015, the day after the Supreme Court ruled gay marriage legal. For the woke campaigners, trans issues were simply next on the list after they ‘won’ gay marriage.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges
    There does need to be protections around women's sport and in one or two other areas. And there does need to be a (not self) diagnosis of dysphoria. I'm not on the extreme edge of this debate. But the idea that people will be switching in and out of genders at the drop of a hat, or that men will ID as women purely in order to invade female changing rooms and toilets is scaremongering. You mention gay rights and it is relevant in that this sort of stuff is similar to that used by antis to fight that battle. They lost but it was effective for quite some time in delaying the defeat. So they are giving it another whirl here.
    I agree with you on this. The toilet/sport issue is a curious one for me. The differentiation between sex and gender is a newish construct. Toilets and sports have always been along sex lines, not gender. Obvious when you think about it - gender didn`t exist before the 50s when it was invented.
    I have similar feelings. I get irritated at the gender issue for most of things in life because it just shouldn't matter. Even sex. I might fancy a male or female, but that tells you nothing about my gender. Your sex/gender is irrelevant for just about everything in life or at least no more important than your age, your race, the colour of your hair, whether you are fat or thin etc eg when addressing letters for instance, so why do we say Mr., Ms, etc and no reference to anything else. Just historic.

    BUT sport has me beat. You have to have that split as otherwise women will be excluded from many sports and then the issue of trans is unavoidable.

    PS Toilets I think we can get over, it is just most gender neutral loos are done badly, causing longer queues for women and queue for the first time for men. You don't have to ban urinals!
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,504
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Stocky said:

    kinabalu said:

    Also, race does not impact on pure deep self like gender does. Gender dysphoria - female in a male body and vice versa - is a real condition. There is no equivalent for race. Half black, half japanese "real self" born in a half white, quarter aboriginal, quarter mexican body? Don't think so. Sounds absurd because it IS absurd.

    Race however is important for people's sense of identity, because other people have made it important, so somehow those identities have to be decided. Who decides?

    There's an interesting book by a guy who grew up in Burundi, where they were the "white kids" because their Dad was European. In France they're black, of course. So who decides?

    This comes back to the argument Rowling put herself into. She's been told that she can't define her own identity as a woman, because other people are telling her what it has to be. Why is it that people born and brought up as men are the people who decide what a female identity is?

    I've grown up with the idea that there are only minimal intrinsic differences between the genders, beyond the reproductive essentials. So if someone wants to switch from one to the other it doesn't make much difference to me.

    But it means I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body. I don't think that's a useful message for kids who don't fit into gender stereotypes.
    "I struggle with the concept that the differences are so large that your mind can have a gender that doesn't match your body."

    It can`t - it`s nonsense. It`s a psychiatric condition, gender dysphoria, and is about what people "feel" rather than facts - i.e. it can`t be disproved by evidence. A non-falsifiable claim if you like.

    Kinabalu thinks we should pander to this. I don`t.
    Not pander. Treat in the way that is best for the afflicted and harms no-one else. The alternative of denying the condition and the treatment would bring misery to many and would also be going backwards since the right to transgender has been recognized for some time.
    There’s been a right to transition gender for some time, that is true.

    The notion that one can choose their own gender, and then without any actual medical treatment or surgery have the ‘right’ to invade women’s safe spaces such as changing rooms and sporting competitions, is quite recent.

    It’s actually possible to pinpoint the date when the recent trans stuff started in the USA, it was 27th June 2015, the day after the Supreme Court ruled gay marriage legal. For the woke campaigners, trans issues were simply next on the list after they ‘won’ gay marriage.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obergefell_v._Hodges
    There does need to be protections around women's sport and in one or two other areas. And there does need to be a (not self) diagnosis of dysphoria. I'm not on the extreme edge of this debate. But the idea that people will be switching in and out of genders at the drop of a hat, or that men will ID as women purely in order to invade female changing rooms and toilets is scaremongering. You mention gay rights and it is relevant in that this sort of stuff is similar to that used by antis to fight that battle. They lost but it was effective for quite some time in delaying the defeat. So they are giving it another whirl here.
    I agree with you on this. The toilet/sport issue is a curious one for me. The differentiation between sex and gender is a newish construct. Toilets and sports have always been along sex lines, not gender. Obvious when you think about it - gender didn`t exist before the 50s when it was invented.
    That will be news to those who studied Latin.
    And Ancient Greek.
    and French, Spanish.....
This discussion has been closed.