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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump’s describes as “fake news” his WH2016 comments that John

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited September 2020 in General
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Trump’s describes as “fake news” his WH2016 comments that John McCain was not a hero because he was captured

..Country, had to be approved by me, as President, & I did so without hesitation or complaint. Quite the contrary, I felt it was well deserved. I even sent Air Force One to bring his body, in casket, from Arizona to Washington. It was my honor to do so. Also, I never called..

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Comments

  • First like Biden.

    I hope.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,672
    edited September 2020
    Trump’s a liar, who knew?

    Perhaps he’s got dementia like people say Biden has when Biden makes an apparent faux pas.
  • Trump being defensive. That's something to see. Usually he doubles down on his outrageous statements.
  • Trump being defensive. That's something to see. Usually he doubles down on his outrageous statements.

    I wonder if that military poll has him worried?
  • Trump being defensive. That's something to see. Usually he doubles down on his outrageous statements.

    I wonder if that military poll has him worried?
    That was before the latest brouhaha, wasn't it?
  • FPT
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:
    Why has it sparked fury?

    According to remainers, fish are inconsequential. Nobody cares. Its a red herring. ha ha ha.
    Problem with this announcement is that it certainly won't happen. If there is a deal, this doubling of UK fish catches is the UK opening gambit that will be whittled down by the EU to a much smaller increase.

    Or there won't be a deal with the consequences of UK fisherman being locked out of the market that represents 70% of their catch. As the Covid catastrophe for fishermen has shown, this market isn't easily replaceable.
    Even were the UK fishermen to be locked out of exports (they won't and can't be, but that's another matter) the fishermen will still gain from extra stock and will be able to sell to the UK.

    Currently the UK is catching 9% of the cod in the UK's Channel waters. France catches 66% of it and exports it to the UK. The UK eats a heck of a lot of cod.

    Why on earth do you think UK fishermen would be incapable of catching cod in UK waters and selling it to the UK if the EU tried to lock them out?

    Having a product that people want to buy and people able to buy it is better than being able to sell a product but not having anything to sell.
  • Trump being defensive. That's something to see. Usually he doubles down on his outrageous statements.

    I wonder if that military poll has him worried?
    That was before the latest brouhaha, wasn't it?
    It was.

    There are some speculating that the October surprise will be one of John Kelly or James Mattie confirming the overnight stories/backing Biden.
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited September 2020
    Trump we know is telling a few porkies here, he was not only not his greatest fan, he and McCain despised each other, hence Cindy McCain spoke at Biden's convention last month.

    However the McCain Republican vote in 2008 is not the same as the Trump Republican vote in 2016, a few establishment McCain voting Republicans even voted for Hillary last time while plenty of Trump voters in 2016 did not vote for McCain in the Republican primaries in 2008 or even voted for Obama in the general or stayed home.

    Remember too in the Republican primaries in 2000 McCain was also the media and liberals candidate over George W Bush
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908

    Trump being defensive. That's something to see. Usually he doubles down on his outrageous statements.

    Trump can and does get away with racism and misogyny, but most Republicans will draw the line at disrespecting the military. Trump may yet get away with it if there are no recordings or people willing to go on the record, but if there are this could be very bad for him.
  • Military do a lot of postal voting, lots of bases in North Carolina, ballots going out today.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
  • Disgusting.

    This white Jewish woman has been stealing opportunities from black women.

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1301803613417865216?s=21
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    A debate could be very akin to two residents in an old people's home accusing one another of cheating at dominoes.

    LOL, brilliant.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    Michel Barnier REALLY cares about fishing.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131
    edited September 2020
    Trump doesnt care about being caught in an obvious lie, clearly, and usually the voters backing him dont care either. But that he isnt sticking to his guns is notable - as Richard nabavi suggests its not his usual MO.
  • OT Firefox search seems broken, and not just on this site. I shall look into what I've done wrong after lunch -- Friday so it is (probably imported) cod and chips.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
  • Military do a lot of postal voting, lots of bases in North Carolina, ballots going out today.

    And the polling suggests that Trump is 4% behind amongst servicemen and women
  • OT Firefox search seems broken, and not just on this site. I shall look into what I've done wrong after lunch -- Friday so it is (probably imported) cod and chips.

    Firefox did an upgrade that was more of a downgrade.

    Is it related to that?
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131

    Trump’s a liar, who knew?

    Perhaps he’s got dementia like people say Biden has when Biden makes an apparent faux pas.

    People have said Trump may have dementia before, yes.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Trump being defensive. That's something to see. Usually he doubles down on his outrageous statements.

    The notion of a US president referring to American servicemen captured or killed whilst serving as "losers" would normally be so ridiculous that in the absence of clear and direct evidence one would reject it out of hand.

    With Donald Trump, because of his known character, this is reversed. In the absence of clear and direct evidence that he did not say it the perfectly reasonable conclusion is that he did.

    This is the level he has brought us all to, I'm afraid.
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Disgusting.

    This white Jewish woman has been stealing opportunities from black women.

    ttps://twitter.com/skynews/status/1301803613417865216?s=21

    Rachel Dolezal MkII.
  • Disgusting.

    This white Jewish woman has been stealing opportunities from black women.

    twitter.com/skynews/status/1301803613417865216?s=21

    I must have missed something - I thought the modern idea was that you can self-identify to be whoever you want to be, and that was incontestable by mere facts?
    Well I’ve tried to self identify as working class but it hasn’t worked.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131

    Disgusting.

    This white Jewish woman has been stealing opportunities from black women.

    twitter.com/skynews/status/1301803613417865216?s=21

    I must have missed something - I thought the modern idea was that you can self-identify to be whoever you want to be, and that was incontestable by mere facts?
    Transracialism is probably the next big thing, but we dont seem there yet. We're in hyper race awareness mode at present
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2020
    kle4 said:

    Disgusting.

    This white Jewish woman has been stealing opportunities from black women.

    twitter.com/skynews/status/1301803613417865216?s=21

    I must have missed something - I thought the modern idea was that you can self-identify to be whoever you want to be, and that was incontestable by mere facts?
    Transracialism is probably the next big thing, but we dont seem there yet. We're in hyper race awareness mode at present
    I thought we were already there with the Metropolitan Black Police Association and a BAME group in the Labour Party, in the vanguard of progress as usual. And in the census or any of those stupid government forms which ask you about your ethnicity, of course.
  • Disgusting.

    This white Jewish woman has been stealing opportunities from black women.

    twitter.com/skynews/status/1301803613417865216?s=21

    I must have missed something - I thought the modern idea was that you can self-identify to be whoever you want to be, and that was incontestable by mere facts?
    Well I’ve tried to self identify as working class but it hasn’t worked.
    Must have been the shoes which stymied you.
  • Military do a lot of postal voting, lots of bases in North Carolina, ballots going out today.

    And the polling suggests that Trump is 4% behind amongst servicemen and women
    And then for everyone on active service, the proud parents, grandparents, spouses and cousins...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
    The UK only gets 9% of the cod quota in the UK's waters in the Channel, the French get 66% despite it being UK waters.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-looms-after-boris-johnson-seeks-to-double-fishing-quota-mwk785bhd

    And we will still be able to export fish post-Brexit, any country can. But the UK i despite being a coastal island remarkably a net importer of fish as it stands too.

    Doubling or quadrupling our quota is not going to hurt UK fishermen. It is insane to suggest otherwise. Oh and we export to more than just the EU.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited September 2020

    Even were the UK fishermen to be locked out of exports (they won't and can't be, but that's another matter) the fishermen will still gain from extra stock and will be able to sell to the UK.

    Currently the UK is catching 9% of the cod in the UK's Channel waters. France catches 66% of it and exports it to the UK. The UK eats a heck of a lot of cod.

    Why on earth do you think UK fishermen would be incapable of catching cod in UK waters and selling it to the UK if the EU tried to lock them out?

    Having a product that people want to buy and people able to buy it is better than being able to sell a product but not having anything to sell.

    It depends on which fishermen. Some would benefit from No Deal; more wouldn't. Starting with processed fish, which employs more people than caught fish. They have no catch to protect so there is no upside there; only downside to not being able to sell into their main market. Next shellfish. This is a more valuable product than deep sea fish and mostly caught by UK fishermen in local waters. They couldn't boost their catch enough to compensate for the loss of their main market. Sea fish - overall they might benefit from No Deal but it depends on the species of fish

  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Trump’s a liar, who knew?

    Perhaps he’s got dementia like people say Biden has when Biden makes an apparent faux pas.

    That's Trumpster propaganda that Biden has dementia. He comes across as a 77 year old man who is not as sharp or robust as he used to be. Dementia is something quite different.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Trump being defensive. That's something to see. Usually he doubles down on his outrageous statements.

    I wonder if that military poll has him worried?
    That was before the latest brouhaha, wasn't it?
    It was.

    There are some speculating that the October surprise will be one of John Kelly or James Mattie confirming the overnight stories/backing Biden.
    The October Surprise is that there is a government shutdown going ot happen in October.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    So do Americans prefer Trump, who allegedly makes a silly unguarded comment about the military but has avoided overseas expeditions as president.

    Or do they prefer Biden, who says how proud he is of the military, while overseeing as VP thousands of coffins returning to the US from abroad?

    I say the above only slightly tongue in cheek. One of Trump’s few achievements is to get out of the foreign wars.
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131
    edited September 2020

    Disgusting.

    This white Jewish woman has been stealing opportunities from black women.

    twitter.com/skynews/status/1301803613417865216?s=21

    I must have missed something - I thought the modern idea was that you can self-identify to be whoever you want to be, and that was incontestable by mere facts?
    Well I’ve tried to self identify as working class but it hasn’t worked.
    The trick is to compare yourself to someone super posh who claims to be middle class. Charles?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Military do a lot of postal voting, lots of bases in North Carolina, ballots going out today.

    Anyone who wants to do some state betting on NC should read http://www.oldnorthstatepolitics.com/
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited September 2020

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Alistair said:

    Military do a lot of postal voting, lots of bases in North Carolina, ballots going out today.

    Anyone who wants to do some state betting on NC should read http://www.oldnorthstatepolitics.com/
    538 has North Carolina on a knife edge and Biden's final state that he takes (51% chance).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131

    kle4 said:

    Disgusting.

    This white Jewish woman has been stealing opportunities from black women.

    twitter.com/skynews/status/1301803613417865216?s=21

    I must have missed something - I thought the modern idea was that you can self-identify to be whoever you want to be, and that was incontestable by mere facts?
    Transracialism is probably the next big thing, but we dont seem there yet. We're in hyper race awareness mode at present
    I thought we were already there with the Metropolitan Black Police Association and a BAME group in the Labour Party, in the vanguard of progress as usual. And in the census or any of those stupid government forms which ask you about your ethnicity, of course.
    And yet some people get mad if you have a hairstyle not approved for your race, so I doubt they approve of people deciding they feel like a different race than they were classified at birth.

    Race really is a stupid human invention, but it's hard to break out of it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Disgusting.

    This white Jewish woman has been stealing opportunities from black women.

    https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1301803613417865216?s=21

    All started with Elvis. But at least he was open about it.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Disgusting.

    This white Jewish woman has been stealing opportunities from black women.

    twitter.com/skynews/status/1301803613417865216?s=21

    I must have missed something - I thought the modern idea was that you can self-identify to be whoever you want to be, and that was incontestable by mere facts?
    Transracialism is probably the next big thing, but we dont seem there yet. We're in hyper race awareness mode at present
    I thought we were already there with the Metropolitan Black Police Association and a BAME group in the Labour Party, in the vanguard of progress as usual. And in the census or any of those stupid government forms which ask you about your ethnicity, of course.
    And yet some people get mad if you have a hairstyle not approved for your race, so I doubt they approve of people deciding they feel like a different race than they were classified at birth.

    Race really is a stupid human invention, but it's hard to break out of it.
    Yes I agree.
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    If the choice is between screwing over a minority or getting a deal, I choose no deal.

    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2020

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
    The UK only gets 9% of the cod quota in the UK's waters in the Channel, the French get 66% despite it being UK waters.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-looms-after-boris-johnson-seeks-to-double-fishing-quota-mwk785bhd

    And we will still be able to export fish post-Brexit, any country can. But the UK i despite being a coastal island remarkably a net importer of fish as it stands too.

    Doubling or quadrupling our quota is not going to hurt UK fishermen. It is insane to suggest otherwise. Oh and we export to more than just the EU.
    You are doing a good job explaining why this is a red line for the EU, but you are making the schoolboy error of thinking that 'fish' are interchangeable, UK consumers don't eat much fish, but what they do eat is largely imported and doesn't come from UK or EU waters: canned tuna, tropical prawns, Norwegian/Icelandic cod and Alaskan pollack. Most of the high-value UK catch is exported to the EU. That catch will be worth very little if we don't have a deal which allows it to be landed in EU ports and sold on within hours of catching it. There's no other distribution avenue immediately available.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    If the choice is between screwing over a minority or getting a deal, I choose no deal.

    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
    Your last sentence is a hope, and an opinion, not a fact. We will see.

    When push comes to shove, the majority of people will not choose to trade their existing jobs and livelihood so that Michael Gove can get on board a fishing boat wearing a yellow coat in the North Sea and wave the Union Jack.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Playing into Trump's hands ?




  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
    The UK only gets 9% of the cod quota in the UK's waters in the Channel, the French get 66% despite it being UK waters.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-looms-after-boris-johnson-seeks-to-double-fishing-quota-mwk785bhd

    And we will still be able to export fish post-Brexit, any country can. But the UK i despite being a coastal island remarkably a net importer of fish as it stands too.

    Doubling or quadrupling our quota is not going to hurt UK fishermen. It is insane to suggest otherwise. Oh and we export to more than just the EU.
    You are doing a good job explaining why this is a red line for the EU, but you are making the schoolboy error of thinking that 'fish' are interchangeable, UK consumers don't eat much fish, but what they do eat is largely imported and doesn't come from UK or EU waters: canned tuna, tropical prawns, Norwegian/Icelandic cod and Alaskan pollack. Most of the high-value UK catch is exported to the EU. That catch will be worth very little if we don't have a deal which allows it to be landed in EU ports and sold on within hours of catching it. There's no other distribution avenue immediately available.
    All of that may be true, but if the EU essentially banned their people from buying it, do you think they'd say "oh well, it's all for a greater good."
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Sandpit said:

    So do Americans prefer Trump, who allegedly makes a silly unguarded comment about the military but has avoided overseas expeditions as president.

    Or do they prefer Biden, who says how proud he is of the military, while overseeing as VP thousands of coffins returning to the US from abroad?

    I say the above only slightly tongue in cheek. One of Trump’s few achievements is to get out of the foreign wars.

    Bit more than "silly", such a comment. The fact you describe it so lightly - and that I know many others would too - illustrates what 4 years of Trump in the White House has done to standards and expectations. This, above all else, is his legacy. And even as a one term president it will be a lasting one.
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
    The UK only gets 9% of the cod quota in the UK's waters in the Channel, the French get 66% despite it being UK waters.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-looms-after-boris-johnson-seeks-to-double-fishing-quota-mwk785bhd

    And we will still be able to export fish post-Brexit, any country can. But the UK i despite being a coastal island remarkably a net importer of fish as it stands too.

    Doubling or quadrupling our quota is not going to hurt UK fishermen. It is insane to suggest otherwise. Oh and we export to more than just the EU.
    You are doing a good job explaining why this is a red line for the EU, but you are making the schoolboy error of thinking that 'fish' are interchangeable, UK consumers don't eat much fish, but what they do eat is largely imported and doesn't come from UK or EU waters: canned tuna, tropical prawns, Norwegian/Icelandic cod and Alaskan pollack. Most of the high-value UK catch is exported to the EU. That catch will be worth very little if we don't have a deal which allows it to be landed in EU ports and sold on within hours of catching it. There's no other distribution avenue immediately available.
    The UK doesn't eat much fish? I must be confused when I thought fish and chips was one of the country's most popular dishes. Plus the UK is actually a net importer of seafood!

    We have a balance of trade deficit on seafood which is insane given our coastal island status. Given we are a coastal island with major stocks of seafood as a natural resource why do we have a balance of trade deficit on seafood, that is madness. But it is less insane when you realise that we only get one quarter of our stocks.

    Plus a significant chunk of our exports already go to outside the EU27 anyway and some of what is exported to the EU27 is frozen anyway.

    Getting 4x the stocks would be profitable even if at a lower margin.
  • This won't be popular.
    "The UK is preparing to build lorry parks in up to 29 parts of the UK in order to deal with the additional checks required after Brexit.
    Boris Johnson's government on Thursday changed the law to give itself the authority to grant emergency planning permission for "temporary" lorry parks across the country, Bloomberg reported."
    https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-boris-johnson-uk-lorry-parks-chaos-checks-2020-9?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+businessinsider+(Business+Insider)&utm_content=FeedBurner+user+view&r=US&IR=T
  • tlg86 said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
    The UK only gets 9% of the cod quota in the UK's waters in the Channel, the French get 66% despite it being UK waters.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-looms-after-boris-johnson-seeks-to-double-fishing-quota-mwk785bhd

    And we will still be able to export fish post-Brexit, any country can. But the UK i despite being a coastal island remarkably a net importer of fish as it stands too.

    Doubling or quadrupling our quota is not going to hurt UK fishermen. It is insane to suggest otherwise. Oh and we export to more than just the EU.
    You are doing a good job explaining why this is a red line for the EU, but you are making the schoolboy error of thinking that 'fish' are interchangeable, UK consumers don't eat much fish, but what they do eat is largely imported and doesn't come from UK or EU waters: canned tuna, tropical prawns, Norwegian/Icelandic cod and Alaskan pollack. Most of the high-value UK catch is exported to the EU. That catch will be worth very little if we don't have a deal which allows it to be landed in EU ports and sold on within hours of catching it. There's no other distribution avenue immediately available.
    All of that may be true, but if the EU essentially banned their people from buying it, do you think they'd say "oh well, it's all for a greater good."
    No, I think they would blame the UK in general and Boris Johnson in particular.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,463

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    There's a misty eyed myth about our brave fishermen challenging the seas to provide us with our staple Friday diet.

    Of course they are brave; nasty, dangerous job. But in reality it's a tiny proportion of our GDP.
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    If the choice is between screwing over a minority or getting a deal, I choose no deal.

    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
    Your last sentence is a hope, and an opinion, not a fact. We will see.

    When push comes to shove, the majority of people will not choose to trade their existing jobs and livelihood so that Michael Gove can get on board a fishing boat wearing a yellow coat in the North Sea and wave the Union Jack.
    When push came to shove, they already did.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    Playing into Trump's hands ?




    It makes 2020-to-2016 analysis impossible. When you looked at the graphs for 2016-vs-2012 it was a clear after an initial surge that the Dem registered vote was not performing as well in early voting as it had done previously.

    This year, how the fuck can you tell how well it is performing!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited September 2020

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
    The UK only gets 9% of the cod quota in the UK's waters in the Channel, the French get 66% despite it being UK waters.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-looms-after-boris-johnson-seeks-to-double-fishing-quota-mwk785bhd

    And we will still be able to export fish post-Brexit, any country can. But the UK i despite being a coastal island remarkably a net importer of fish as it stands too.

    Doubling or quadrupling our quota is not going to hurt UK fishermen. It is insane to suggest otherwise. Oh and we export to more than just the EU.
    You are doing a good job explaining why this is a red line for the EU, but you are making the schoolboy error of thinking that 'fish' are interchangeable, UK consumers don't eat much fish, but what they do eat is largely imported and doesn't come from UK or EU waters: canned tuna, tropical prawns, Norwegian/Icelandic cod and Alaskan pollack. Most of the high-value UK catch is exported to the EU. That catch will be worth very little if we don't have a deal which allows it to be landed in EU ports and sold on within hours of catching it. There's no other distribution avenue immediately available.
    Interestingly*, it says "supply" but the UK looks like it consumes 20kg/person of fish per year.

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fish-and-seafood-consumption-per-capita?tab=table

    The UK is way, way, way on down the table.

    *to a tiny, tiny minority who should get to dictate the terms of our trade agreement with the EU, obvs.
  • tlg86 said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
    The UK only gets 9% of the cod quota in the UK's waters in the Channel, the French get 66% despite it being UK waters.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-looms-after-boris-johnson-seeks-to-double-fishing-quota-mwk785bhd

    And we will still be able to export fish post-Brexit, any country can. But the UK i despite being a coastal island remarkably a net importer of fish as it stands too.

    Doubling or quadrupling our quota is not going to hurt UK fishermen. It is insane to suggest otherwise. Oh and we export to more than just the EU.
    You are doing a good job explaining why this is a red line for the EU, but you are making the schoolboy error of thinking that 'fish' are interchangeable, UK consumers don't eat much fish, but what they do eat is largely imported and doesn't come from UK or EU waters: canned tuna, tropical prawns, Norwegian/Icelandic cod and Alaskan pollack. Most of the high-value UK catch is exported to the EU. That catch will be worth very little if we don't have a deal which allows it to be landed in EU ports and sold on within hours of catching it. There's no other distribution avenue immediately available.
    All of that may be true, but if the EU essentially banned their people from buying it, do you think they'd say "oh well, it's all for a greater good."
    Funny how Mr Nabavi seems to think the EU consumers aren't going to object to empty shelves when suddenly billions of pounds of seafood goes missing from their shelves in his scenario.

    There is only one party that will lose out if the UK gets 100% of our waters - and it is not the UK.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    If the choice is between screwing over a minority or getting a deal, I choose no deal.

    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
    Your last sentence is a hope, and an opinion, not a fact. We will see.

    When push comes to shove, the majority of people will not choose to trade their existing jobs and livelihood so that Michael Gove can get on board a fishing boat wearing a yellow coat in the North Sea and wave the Union Jack.
    When push came to shove, they already did.
    They have not. Nothing has happened yet, nothing has changed.

    When things actually start to change, we’ll see if people are happy with our new reality.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
    LOL!!!

    You I presume have been in the UK these past few months. Can you really make such a claim so blithely?!

    DFG!
  • TOPPING said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
    The UK only gets 9% of the cod quota in the UK's waters in the Channel, the French get 66% despite it being UK waters.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-looms-after-boris-johnson-seeks-to-double-fishing-quota-mwk785bhd

    And we will still be able to export fish post-Brexit, any country can. But the UK i despite being a coastal island remarkably a net importer of fish as it stands too.

    Doubling or quadrupling our quota is not going to hurt UK fishermen. It is insane to suggest otherwise. Oh and we export to more than just the EU.
    You are doing a good job explaining why this is a red line for the EU, but you are making the schoolboy error of thinking that 'fish' are interchangeable, UK consumers don't eat much fish, but what they do eat is largely imported and doesn't come from UK or EU waters: canned tuna, tropical prawns, Norwegian/Icelandic cod and Alaskan pollack. Most of the high-value UK catch is exported to the EU. That catch will be worth very little if we don't have a deal which allows it to be landed in EU ports and sold on within hours of catching it. There's no other distribution avenue immediately available.
    Interestingly*, it says "supply" but the UK looks like it consumes 20kg/person of fish per year.

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fish-and-seafood-consumption-per-capita?tab=table

    The UK is way, way, way on down the table.

    *to a tiny, tiny minority who should get to dictate the terms of our trade agreement with the EU, obvs.
    Yet despite being a coastal island with one of the biggest stocks of seafood in Europe, we are a net importer of seafood.

    So apparently if we don't have a trade deal then supposed British fishermen will have access to 4x the catch but go bust as a result and EU consumers will lose billions of pounds of catch from their shelves and plates but not object. Wut?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    There's a misty eyed myth about our brave fishermen challenging the seas to provide us with our staple Friday diet.

    Of course they are brave; nasty, dangerous job. But in reality it's a tiny proportion of our GDP.
    I don’t dispute that at all. I know we have that misty eyed myth. But when push actually comes to the shove, people are not going to cheer on the “success of the fishing industry” if their jobs go, or their shopping gets more expensive or less varied.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
    The UK only gets 9% of the cod quota in the UK's waters in the Channel, the French get 66% despite it being UK waters.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-looms-after-boris-johnson-seeks-to-double-fishing-quota-mwk785bhd

    And we will still be able to export fish post-Brexit, any country can. But the UK i despite being a coastal island remarkably a net importer of fish as it stands too.

    Doubling or quadrupling our quota is not going to hurt UK fishermen. It is insane to suggest otherwise. Oh and we export to more than just the EU.
    You are doing a good job explaining why this is a red line for the EU, but you are making the schoolboy error of thinking that 'fish' are interchangeable, UK consumers don't eat much fish, but what they do eat is largely imported and doesn't come from UK or EU waters: canned tuna, tropical prawns, Norwegian/Icelandic cod and Alaskan pollack. Most of the high-value UK catch is exported to the EU. That catch will be worth very little if we don't have a deal which allows it to be landed in EU ports and sold on within hours of catching it. There's no other distribution avenue immediately available.
    All of that may be true, but if the EU essentially banned their people from buying it, do you think they'd say "oh well, it's all for a greater good."
    No, I think they would blame the UK in general and Boris Johnson in particular.
    Hopefully no remainers on here will be dumb enough to sympathize with them.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
    The UK only gets 9% of the cod quota in the UK's waters in the Channel, the French get 66% despite it being UK waters.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-looms-after-boris-johnson-seeks-to-double-fishing-quota-mwk785bhd

    And we will still be able to export fish post-Brexit, any country can. But the UK i despite being a coastal island remarkably a net importer of fish as it stands too.

    Doubling or quadrupling our quota is not going to hurt UK fishermen. It is insane to suggest otherwise. Oh and we export to more than just the EU.
    You are doing a good job explaining why this is a red line for the EU, but you are making the schoolboy error of thinking that 'fish' are interchangeable, UK consumers don't eat much fish, but what they do eat is largely imported and doesn't come from UK or EU waters: canned tuna, tropical prawns, Norwegian/Icelandic cod and Alaskan pollack. Most of the high-value UK catch is exported to the EU. That catch will be worth very little if we don't have a deal which allows it to be landed in EU ports and sold on within hours of catching it. There's no other distribution avenue immediately available.
    The UK doesn't eat much fish? I must be confused when I thought fish and chips was one of the country's most popular dishes. Plus the UK is actually a net importer of seafood!

    We have a balance of trade deficit on seafood which is insane given our coastal island status. Given we are a coastal island with major stocks of seafood as a natural resource why do we have a balance of trade deficit on seafood, that is madness. But it is less insane when you realise that we only get one quarter of our stocks.

    Plus a significant chunk of our exports already go to outside the EU27 anyway and some of what is exported to the EU27 is frozen anyway.

    Getting 4x the stocks would be profitable even if at a lower margin.
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fish-and-seafood-consumption-per-capita?tab=table

    We don't eat much fish. You walking past a queue at your local chippie notwithstanding.
  • TOPPING said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
    LOL!!!

    You I presume have been in the UK these past few months. Can you really make such a claim so blithely?!

    DFG!
    Yes. We just went through a global pandemic that disrupted supply chains far more than Brexit ever could, with far more panic buying than could ever be seen - and the supermarkets coped throughout.

    We've just been through a major stress test and came through it intact.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    If the choice is between screwing over a minority or getting a deal, I choose no deal.

    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
    Your last sentence is a hope, and an opinion, not a fact. We will see.

    When push comes to shove, the majority of people will not choose to trade their existing jobs and livelihood so that Michael Gove can get on board a fishing boat wearing a yellow coat in the North Sea and wave the Union Jack.
    When push came to shove, they already did.
    It is good to see you acknowledge that jobs and livelihoods will be lost with Brexit.

    And I'm loving the serves them bloody well right tone to your post.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    @Philip_Thompson I doubt the EU cares very much in the grand scheme of things if British fish gets more expensive.

    They do know that for some reason the Government is obsessed with it though, and thus they are using it for leverage.
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    If the choice is between screwing over a minority or getting a deal, I choose no deal.

    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
    Brexit itself involves screwing over countless minorities (eg the 48% who didn't want to leave). A no deal Brexit would screw over many minorities. A deal will screw over some different minorities. The art of government is choosing, not simply prioritising one minority arbitrarily and refusing to countenance any arrangement that does not privilege them to the detriment of everyone else. What about hauliers? People who export to the EU? People who hope to retire to the EU? The airline industry? The financial sector?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited September 2020
    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Playing into Trump's hands ?




    It makes 2020-to-2016 analysis impossible. When you looked at the graphs for 2016-vs-2012 it was a clear after an initial surge that the Dem registered vote was not performing as well in early voting as it had done previously.

    This year, how the fuck can you tell how well it is performing!
    You can do the following thought experiment..

    Would you be happier as (I presume you're a Biden backer/supporter) seeing Dem registrations at 58k whilst GOP is over 200 ?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2020



    Funny how Mr Nabavi seems to think the EU consumers aren't going to object to empty shelves when suddenly billions of pounds of seafood goes missing from their shelves in his scenario.

    There is only one party that will lose out if the UK gets 100% of our waters - and it is not the UK.

    Err, the EU won't have empty shelves. It could have shortages of some specific seafood items, but that's it. The EU imports very little food from the UK, whereas around 30% of food we eat comes from the EU. Any disruption from the expected chaos at Dover is going to hit us very badly indeed.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Pulpstar said:

    Playing into Trump's hands ?




    Oh!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    If the choice is between screwing over a minority or getting a deal, I choose no deal.

    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
    That isn't the choice, though. The choice is between the interests of different groups.

    Now I accept deep sea fishermen would win from a No Deal. They can catch considerably more fish and be able to sell enough of it even with EU tariffs to come out ahead.

    Deep sea fishermen are a minority albeit a high profile one within the UK fishing industry. The rest of the industry loses out if there is No Deal. You would be compromising their interest for those of Deep Sea fishermen. Which is a reasonable thing to do but that is the choice you are making.

    If there is No Deal that has negative consequences for almost everyone else outside fishing. You would be compromising the interest of the vast majority for that of a tiny minority. Again you can choose to do this, but I suggest it is getting increasingly difficult to justify.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Trump being defensive. That's something to see. Usually he doubles down on his outrageous statements.

    Thing that struck me looking at that clip is that he's aged rather more dramatically than Biden.
  • TOPPING said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
    The UK only gets 9% of the cod quota in the UK's waters in the Channel, the French get 66% despite it being UK waters.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-looms-after-boris-johnson-seeks-to-double-fishing-quota-mwk785bhd

    And we will still be able to export fish post-Brexit, any country can. But the UK i despite being a coastal island remarkably a net importer of fish as it stands too.

    Doubling or quadrupling our quota is not going to hurt UK fishermen. It is insane to suggest otherwise. Oh and we export to more than just the EU.
    You are doing a good job explaining why this is a red line for the EU, but you are making the schoolboy error of thinking that 'fish' are interchangeable, UK consumers don't eat much fish, but what they do eat is largely imported and doesn't come from UK or EU waters: canned tuna, tropical prawns, Norwegian/Icelandic cod and Alaskan pollack. Most of the high-value UK catch is exported to the EU. That catch will be worth very little if we don't have a deal which allows it to be landed in EU ports and sold on within hours of catching it. There's no other distribution avenue immediately available.
    The UK doesn't eat much fish? I must be confused when I thought fish and chips was one of the country's most popular dishes. Plus the UK is actually a net importer of seafood!

    We have a balance of trade deficit on seafood which is insane given our coastal island status. Given we are a coastal island with major stocks of seafood as a natural resource why do we have a balance of trade deficit on seafood, that is madness. But it is less insane when you realise that we only get one quarter of our stocks.

    Plus a significant chunk of our exports already go to outside the EU27 anyway and some of what is exported to the EU27 is frozen anyway.

    Getting 4x the stocks would be profitable even if at a lower margin.
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fish-and-seafood-consumption-per-capita?tab=table

    We don't eat much fish. You walking past a queue at your local chippie notwithstanding.
    https://www.undercurrentnews.com/2019/04/10/trade-insights-more-than-70-of-uk-seafood-exports-go-to-eu/

    2018 the UK imported £3.28 billion in seafood and exported £1.87 billion. A trade deficit of £1.41 billion pounds.

    Despite the fact we're an island nation with 4x the stocks than we are currently catching.
  • French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    If the choice is between screwing over a minority or getting a deal, I choose no deal.

    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
    Your last sentence is a hope, and an opinion, not a fact. We will see.

    When push comes to shove, the majority of people will not choose to trade their existing jobs and livelihood so that Michael Gove can get on board a fishing boat wearing a yellow coat in the North Sea and wave the Union Jack.
    If it comes to it people won't have that choice. The choice they will have is who to blame.

    I predict a majority of Leavers will blame the EU and a majority of Remainers will blame Johnson.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
    LOL!!!

    You I presume have been in the UK these past few months. Can you really make such a claim so blithely?!

    DFG!
    Yes. We just went through a global pandemic that disrupted supply chains far more than Brexit ever could, with far more panic buying than could ever be seen - and the supermarkets coped throughout.

    We've just been through a major stress test and came through it intact.
    Finally you accept that in the midst of a global pandemic (you haven't scheduled it to end by Jan 2021 have you?) is not the time to Brexit.

    Because we had empty shelves in supermarkets during the global pandemic and you are now seeking to add chaos via new rules on trade which are likely to empty those shelves again.

    Again. The shelves were empty as recently as a few months ago. Empty.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Disgusting.

    This white Jewish woman has been stealing opportunities from black women.

    twitter.com/skynews/status/1301803613417865216?s=21

    I must have missed something - I thought the modern idea was that you can self-identify to be whoever you want to be, and that was incontestable by mere facts?
    Transracialism is probably the next big thing, but we dont seem there yet. We're in hyper race awareness mode at present
    I thought we were already there with the Metropolitan Black Police Association and a BAME group in the Labour Party, in the vanguard of progress as usual. And in the census or any of those stupid government forms which ask you about your ethnicity, of course.
    And yet some people get mad if you have a hairstyle not approved for your race, so I doubt they approve of people deciding they feel like a different race than they were classified at birth.
    Are we classified racially at birth? There's no race on my birth cert.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited September 2020
    @Philip_Thompson assures us that there will be no negative consequences whatsoever to having no trade deal with the EU. Great. We’ll probably find out very soon.

    But he also says that even if there are negative consequences, people won’t care because independent fishing policy, or something.

    Consider me sceptical.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    edited September 2020

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    The thing is though, say we end up with sole (he he) rights to fish our waters - what then? The French, Spanish etc will carry on fishing in our waters as before even though it is against the rules. Will brexiters demand that this is enforced? How? What follows?


  • Funny how Mr Nabavi seems to think the EU consumers aren't going to object to empty shelves when suddenly billions of pounds of seafood goes missing from their shelves in his scenario.

    There is only one party that will lose out if the UK gets 100% of our waters - and it is not the UK.

    Err, the EU won't have empty shelves. It could have shortages of some specific seafood items, but that's it. The EU imports very little food from the UK, whereas around 30% of food we eat comes from the EU. Any disruption from the expected chaos at Dover is going to hit us very badly indeed.
    Err no because the 75% of UK stocks that are currently caught by EU fishermen are not classed as a UK export.

    The EU imports £1.11 billion of seafood from us . . . but that is only from what we catch ourselves. On top of that they also get 75% of the catch from UK waters.

    If that vanishes overnight then what do you think is going to replace it?
  • Stocky said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    The thing is though, say we end up with sole (he he) rights to fish our waters - what then? The French, Spanish etc will carry on fishing in our waters as before even though it is against the rules. Will brexiters demand that this is enforced? How? What follows?
    Of course. Just like Iceland enforces it in their waters. That is what the navy is for.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    If the choice is between screwing over a minority or getting a deal, I choose no deal.

    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
    Your last sentence is a hope, and an opinion, not a fact. We will see.

    When push comes to shove, the majority of people will not choose to trade their existing jobs and livelihood so that Michael Gove can get on board a fishing boat wearing a yellow coat in the North Sea and wave the Union Jack.
    If it comes to it people won't have that choice. The choice they will have is who to blame.

    I predict a majority of Leavers will blame the EU and a majority of Remainers will blame Johnson.
    You may be right. Keir’s big test will be whether he can control the narrative.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited September 2020

    TOPPING said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Mainly the fish we catch is exported and the fish we eat is imported.
    Yes because we're only allowed to catch 9% of cod in our waters.

    66% of the cod in our own waters are caught by French fishermen who then export them to us.

    If there was no deal and the fishermen started catch 100% of cod in our waters when what do you think our fishermen would do with those cod?
    Not sure where you get those figures from. We export a lot of cod to the EU - see chart here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/46401558
    The UK only gets 9% of the cod quota in the UK's waters in the Channel, the French get 66% despite it being UK waters.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-looms-after-boris-johnson-seeks-to-double-fishing-quota-mwk785bhd

    And we will still be able to export fish post-Brexit, any country can. But the UK i despite being a coastal island remarkably a net importer of fish as it stands too.

    Doubling or quadrupling our quota is not going to hurt UK fishermen. It is insane to suggest otherwise. Oh and we export to more than just the EU.
    You are doing a good job explaining why this is a red line for the EU, but you are making the schoolboy error of thinking that 'fish' are interchangeable, UK consumers don't eat much fish, but what they do eat is largely imported and doesn't come from UK or EU waters: canned tuna, tropical prawns, Norwegian/Icelandic cod and Alaskan pollack. Most of the high-value UK catch is exported to the EU. That catch will be worth very little if we don't have a deal which allows it to be landed in EU ports and sold on within hours of catching it. There's no other distribution avenue immediately available.
    The UK doesn't eat much fish? I must be confused when I thought fish and chips was one of the country's most popular dishes. Plus the UK is actually a net importer of seafood!

    We have a balance of trade deficit on seafood which is insane given our coastal island status. Given we are a coastal island with major stocks of seafood as a natural resource why do we have a balance of trade deficit on seafood, that is madness. But it is less insane when you realise that we only get one quarter of our stocks.

    Plus a significant chunk of our exports already go to outside the EU27 anyway and some of what is exported to the EU27 is frozen anyway.

    Getting 4x the stocks would be profitable even if at a lower margin.
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fish-and-seafood-consumption-per-capita?tab=table

    We don't eat much fish. You walking past a queue at your local chippie notwithstanding.
    https://www.undercurrentnews.com/2019/04/10/trade-insights-more-than-70-of-uk-seafood-exports-go-to-eu/

    2018 the UK imported £3.28 billion in seafood and exported £1.87 billion. A trade deficit of £1.41 billion pounds.

    Despite the fact we're an island nation with 4x the stocks than we are currently catching.
    Yes, and it will be worse in the event of no deal. We'll still be importing canned tuna, tropical prawns, Norwegian/Icelandic cod and Alaskan pollack, and we'll have nowhere to sell the high-end stuff we currently sell fresh to the EU. I really don't get why you can't understand that imported cod and tuna are not the same as exported scallops and herring.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    French fishermen catch British fish in British waters and export them to Britain - and the delusional Remainers on here think British fishermen would be devastated by our fishermen no longer being confined to 1/4 of British stocks?

    Its laughable.

    Nobody cares about fishing.
    That is self-evidently not true.
    It is. It’s only the frothers in the government and its supporters who really care. The average person on the street does not give two sh*ts.
    If nobody cares why doesn't Barnier concede in this subject?

    People care.
    I’m not talking about Barnier. I don’t care about Barnier. I’m talking about the general public.
    So you think the general public in coastal communities don't care about fish?

    Because that's not true either. Many vote quite heavily on this matter.
    Who cares? They are a tiny, tiny minority.

    If you think the vast majority of people would choose “independent fishing”, which will have no impact on them whatsoever, over empty supermarket shelves and increased cost of imported consumer goods then you’re seriously deluded.
    Coastal communities are a tiny, tiny minority?

    Oh ok then. So we should just ignore minority interests is that what you're saying? The voters in coastal communities and the MPs they represent absolutely do care and so they should.

    If the 'vast majority' don't get about fishing then they should ignore the subject. Let the people who do care get a say - and the people that do care, care very passionately.
    I live in a coastal community. The vast majority don’t give a crap. They really don’t.

    I’m sorry Philip but you’re just wrong.
    I'm sorry Gallowgate but you're just wrong. Many do give a crap and do so passionately.

    Even if a majority don't - if they don't give a crap then they're irrelevant. If they don't care then they'll be happy with whatever the people who do care decide. For those that do give a crap, they are the ones that matter.

    If you don't care then just move on. Let the people who do care speak up - and there are many of them and they vote.
    It’s not a zero sum game. We have a choice. “Fishing”, which affects a tiny, tiny minority of people, and a better chance of a deal.

    You guys have an obsession with something that is just not important. On the hierarchy of “what people care about”, people want cheap consumer goods, and they want full supermarket shelves.

    The majority will not be willing to trade the hypothetical concept of an “independent fishing policy” for the possible reality of lorries piling up in Dover and causing trade issues.

    If you suggest otherwise, you’re deluded. You just are. Go out and speak to people.
    The country will have full supermarket shelves and cheap consumer goods either way.
    LOL!!!

    You I presume have been in the UK these past few months. Can you really make such a claim so blithely?!

    DFG!
    Yes. We just went through a global pandemic that disrupted supply chains far more than Brexit ever could, with far more panic buying than could ever be seen - and the supermarkets coped throughout.

    We've just been through a major stress test and came through it intact.
    Finally you accept that in the midst of a global pandemic (you haven't scheduled it to end by Jan 2021 have you?) is not the time to Brexit.

    Because we had empty shelves in supermarkets during the global pandemic and you are now seeking to add chaos via new rules on trade which are likely to empty those shelves again.

    Again. The shelves were empty as recently as a few months ago. Empty.
    No I do not accept that, that is not what I said.

    The shelves were not empty a few months ago. I was able to get stock from the shelves constantly for everything except toilet paper as a unique product. The shelves were never completely empty.

    In one week at the peak of it I went to the supermarket and they had no chicken so I bought something else instead. Its called substitution, a well known economic effect. By the next week they had chicken again.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,463

    @Philip_Thompson I doubt the EU cares very much in the grand scheme of things if British fish gets more expensive.

    They do know that for some reason the Government is obsessed with it though, and thus they are using it for leverage.

    AIUI, much of the fish our lads catch isn't what 'we' like; so it's exported. And, as was pointed out upthread, exporting fish is a matter of ashore > refrigerated lorry> vendor> consumers double-quick time.
    Sitting in a ferry off Calais while Monsieur le Douane works his way through the paperwork won't do it a lot of good.
  • Scott_xP said:
    "that we catch"

    The EU catches 75% of the stocks in our waters genius.
This discussion has been closed.