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  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited September 2020

    One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories are above 40% because - well everyone knows tax rises are coming. People are just hoping those tax rises won't disproportionately affect them. Soon as the tax rises hit the Tories are sub 40 with Labour taking a lead I think.

    Which is why Tory MPs will likely vote down any budget with significant tax rises
    If they do that, does is mean the end of the Johnson experiment? And of Cummings too?

    And if he does not get way with tax changes, will Sunak resign?

    I look forward to the reply from young HY...
    No, not necessarily but Tory MPs, especially newly elected ones now see themselves as closer to US Congressmen then voting fodder ie they will put what their voters want not what No 10 and 11 wants first
    And then be deselected right?
    Not by their local associations no, their local parties will be right behind them.

    Same problem Blair had with the over 100 Labour MPs who voted against the Iraq War, local CLPs backed them
    But the party would withdraw the whip and kick them out of the party, right?
    It couldn't if over 100 MPs rebelled as it would no longer have a majority and if big taxes were proposed the rebellion would be that big if not bigger
    You are delusional. When have MPs ever voted down a budget and kept the whip? This is nonsense, you don't vote against your party on confidence or supply - no ifs or buts.

    If tax rises are proposed MPs may grumble, they will brief the press, but they will go through the appropriate lobby as they have to do so.
    Labour did in the Iraq War vote as the rebellion was so big they could not remove the whip from over rebel 100 MPs, if there were big tax rises the rebellion would match it, Tory MPs will not vote for political suicide in their own seats with their core voters
    The Iraq War rebellion wasn't a confidence and supply issue.

    The budget is.
    Not in itself
    WHAT!?

    What do you think the "supply" in "confidence and supply" refers to?
    Legally a loss of supply is still not a vote of confidence, the government can then amend the budget, if it loses a vote of no confidence however an election has to be called by the monarch
    That's pushing things to breaking point. I'd imagine that the budget would be made a matter of confidence and if lost there would be an election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sorry, has HYUFD gone off the rails again

    Voting down a Tory budget, are you mad

    No, voting down a big tax rising budget which would be a left wing budget not a Tory budget anyway
    Horse do you see why I call him a "blue Corbynite"? He does not represent me or the party any more than Corbynites represent you.
    If you think keeping taxes low does not represent the views of most Tories you really are better off in the LDs or even Starmer Labour
    I think taxes and deficits need to be kept low.

    In order to keep the deficit low, which in the long term keeps taxes low, sometimes tax rises are necessary. Every Tory Chancellor worth their salt has had to increase taxes sometimes. Because sometimes its necessary - or sometimes it can balance out a tax cut elsewhere.
    The Tory manifesto promised not to raise income tax, national insurance or VAT, certainly if any of those were raised the rebellion from Tory MPs would be triple figures

    https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan
    That was pre-COVID.

    The Government will want to stick to that plan but if they deem a tax rise necessary then it will be voted for by anyone holding the whip and anyone who doesn't would lose the whip.
    Nope, any breach of the Tory manifesto on those taxes will be a breach of the platform those MPs won on, they will vote down such a budget without question and without those MPs the government has no majority.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Noting the prior discussion on UK Q3 GDP growth, worth pointing out that growth in Q3 is mostly a function of how big the decline in GDP was in Q2 (ie the deeper the hole, the bigger is the climb out of it). Recall that UK GDP fell 20% in Q2, vs 9% in the US, 8% in Japan and 12% in the euro area. So yes, we should get some strong data for July next Friday and for Q3 as a whole (I currently expect 16% for Q3) but don't kid yourself that this is anything to crow about.

    Getting your excuses in early, I see...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Sorry to be obtuse, but just why is the Common Fisheries Policy so hated? Looks to me as though it's an effort to share out stocks reasonably fairly, although obviously various species of fish swim in different waters, due to temperature, food specials and so on.

    Because it shares out our stocks between multiple nations.

    When else do you ever see a nation's sovereign natural resource get shared out between countries? We don't share the North Sea Oil between the whole of Europe, why do we share our fish?
    IIRC it was done that way by a Conservative government to secure special privileges for the City of London. But that was a bit before myt time.

    It was also a convenient excuse fior overfishing/a whipping boy when conservation measures came in, eas it not?

    And some of the fishermen had done their bit to share it out by selling their rights to non-UK nationals.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Guido’s been doing some digging. Turns out the ‘bereaved families’ group is being run by a long-standing Momentum activist.
    https://order-order.com/2020/09/02/covid-justice-group-is-momentum-front-organisation/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    HYUFD said:
    Party in charge of previous policy of allowing leopards to eat faces cries piteously 'Why won't you support us in our fight to stop leopards eating faces?'
    I've not been looking at the matter in detail but is not fisheries policy and conservation a devolved matter anyway? If so then the SNP should be praised for following EVEL (or for resisting a Whitehall powers grab, depending on the details).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    Sorry to be obtuse, but just why is the Common Fisheries Policy so hated? Looks to me as though it's an effort to share out stocks reasonably fairly, although obviously various species of fish swim in different waters, due to temperature, food specials and so on.

    Because it shares out our stocks between multiple nations.

    When else do you ever see a nation's sovereign natural resource get shared out between countries? We don't share the North Sea Oil between the whole of Europe, why do we share our fish?
    Presumably then our lads can fish in Irish, French or Portuguese (etc) waters?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Sandpit said:

    Guido’s been doing some digging. Turns out the ‘bereaved families’ group is being run by a long-standing Momentum activist.
    https://order-order.com/2020/09/02/covid-justice-group-is-momentum-front-organisation/

    In the least surprising news ever...
  • One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
  • https://twitter.com/katyballs/status/1301159424959053829

    Doesn't the red wall actually support higher taxes, wasn't there polling done on this
  • Noting the prior discussion on UK Q3 GDP growth, worth pointing out that growth in Q3 is mostly a function of how big the decline in GDP was in Q2 (ie the deeper the hole, the bigger is the climb out of it). Recall that UK GDP fell 20% in Q2, vs 9% in the US, 8% in Japan and 12% in the euro area. So yes, we should get some strong data for July next Friday and for Q3 as a whole (I currently expect 16% for Q3) but don't kid yourself that this is anything to crow about.

    Getting your excuses in early, I see...
    I doubt anyone will remember this post when the Q3 GDP data are published on November 12, to be honest. I just thought that some on here might be unfamiliar with the concept of dead cat bounce.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sorry, has HYUFD gone off the rails again

    Voting down a Tory budget, are you mad

    No, voting down a big tax rising budget which would be a left wing budget not a Tory budget anyway
    Horse do you see why I call him a "blue Corbynite"? He does not represent me or the party any more than Corbynites represent you.
    If you think keeping taxes low does not represent the views of most Tories you really are better off in the LDs or even Starmer Labour
    I think taxes and deficits need to be kept low.

    In order to keep the deficit low, which in the long term keeps taxes low, sometimes tax rises are necessary. Every Tory Chancellor worth their salt has had to increase taxes sometimes. Because sometimes its necessary - or sometimes it can balance out a tax cut elsewhere.
    The Tory manifesto promised not to raise income tax, national insurance or VAT, certainly if any of those were raised the rebellion from Tory MPs would be triple figures

    https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan
    That was pre-COVID.

    The Government will want to stick to that plan but if they deem a tax rise necessary then it will be voted for by anyone holding the whip and anyone who doesn't would lose the whip.
    Nope, any breach of the Tory manifesto on those taxes will be a breach of the platform those MPs won on, they will vote down such a budget without question and without those MPs the government has no majority.
    You are off your rocker again, there is a reason not a single soul is agreeing with you.

    MPs do not vote down the government on issues of confidence and supply and keep the whip - no ifs, no buts.

    You seem to think for some reason the Budget is not an issue of confidence and supply so I ask again just what do you think the "and supply" refers to?
  • One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    https://twitter.com/katyballs/status/1301159424959053829

    Doesn't the red wall actually support higher taxes, wasn't there polling done on this

    They do not support higher income taxes or National Insurance or VAT being paid by themselves no, higher taxes for the very rich maybe
  • One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    MaxPB said:

    Just seen some new forecasts come through for Q3. City consensus looks like 17%, European and American banks closer to 15%, UK banks (and UK branches of European banks) closer to 20%. There isn't usually such a big spread but I think European banks especially have underestimated the scale of WFH in the UK and are misunderstanding the real-time indicators showing that public transport use is still only 55% of the prior year.

    One of our guys thinks that the £500m EOTHO spend has got close to a 9x economic multiplier based on transaction data we've received from POS and merchant services companies. He says it's the single most successful economic policy of the last 50 years. He thinks the chancellor should extend it for non franchise restaurants with 50 or fewer locations until the end of the year, essentially locking out the big chains like McDonalds and KFC but allowing smaller chains and independents to continue benefiting. It would also cut the cost of the policy by 50-60%.

    July GDP data is going to be a very big day for the UK, it should show that the UK is currently the fastest growing global economy and is having the best bounceback and give us a sense of where we're headed by December.

    I presume we have another week or so to wait for that?
    Found the data on transport usage -

    image

    Food for thought among the London centric, I think
    Wow so pretty much back at 100% for most of the country.

    And people were claiming here yesterday that Boris was lying for saying that huge numbers of people had gone back to work. I said here that the roads seem as busy as they were preCOVID and this demonstrates it.

    The country exists outside of London not that you'd know it from people saying "look at this empty Tube, nobody is working!"
    But the buses are empty in the bits of Islington that Guardian columnists aspire to live in.
    Not many journalists can realistically aspire to live in Islington. You need to have serious inherited wealth to live there, like Dominic Cummings or Boris Johnson*
    * until his wife threw him out.
    But they go to the pubs there and dream. And then go and write columns on the horrors of living in zone 4.
    Do they? I've never read one. Don't understand why anyone would want to live north of the river anyway.
    I'd have to dig - there was a hilarious one, not long ago, about how the writer felt his precious middle class status was slipping. He could only afford to live in a flat in a "bad" area, and his daughter was speaking in a "common" accent, picked up at the local school.

    Even he was trying to justify staying in London - he was a writer and had no actual desk to go to.....
    Ha ha my son is full on South London - innit tho fam.
    He (the writer) sounded throughly miserable, so I wouldn't laugh.

    It was just that if he moved out of London to the horrors of Wiltshire (say), he could be living in a nice village, his daughter at a grammar school etc.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
    Gaurn feed makes it clear (a) a lot of shite and (b) the security risks were to Mr Blackford.
    "12:43
    PMQs is over, but the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, allows a point of order.

    It’s from Ian Blackford, the SNP leader at Westminster. He says in August the Sun quoted a No 10 source blaming Blackford for revealing the location of the PM’s holiday in Scotland. He says this was a political smear. He says he did not reveal where the PM was staying, and was not aware of it. He says this has resulted in Blackford himself, and his family, facing security threats. He says Johnson’s face in the chamber suggests he does not take this seriously, but it is a serious matter.

    Johnson says he had a wonderful staycation in Blackford’s constituency. He says he is happy to accept the assurances Blackford gives. But he quotes a tweet from the Daily Record journalist Torcuil Crichton, which he seems to imply undermines what Blackford was saying.

    Here is the tweet. It does not at all prove what Johnson implies that it does (that Crichton heard about where Johnson was camping from Blackford).

    [tweet here]
    Hoyle says he is very concerned about the security implications."

    The TC tweet i shere ...

    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1295460638592991233

    Mr Johnson does not seem on top of the detail, no?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited September 2020
    How many years did Starmer serve in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet and campaign for him to be Prime Minister?

    Because that's this Labour hypocrisy in a nutshell.
  • One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
    This isn't rocket science. What did you hear that made you come to the conclusion that it was justified to suggest Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited September 2020

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sorry, has HYUFD gone off the rails again

    Voting down a Tory budget, are you mad

    No, voting down a big tax rising budget which would be a left wing budget not a Tory budget anyway
    Horse do you see why I call him a "blue Corbynite"? He does not represent me or the party any more than Corbynites represent you.
    If you think keeping taxes low does not represent the views of most Tories you really are better off in the LDs or even Starmer Labour
    I think taxes and deficits need to be kept low.

    In order to keep the deficit low, which in the long term keeps taxes low, sometimes tax rises are necessary. Every Tory Chancellor worth their salt has had to increase taxes sometimes. Because sometimes its necessary - or sometimes it can balance out a tax cut elsewhere.
    The Tory manifesto promised not to raise income tax, national insurance or VAT, certainly if any of those were raised the rebellion from Tory MPs would be triple figures

    https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan
    That was pre-COVID.

    The Government will want to stick to that plan but if they deem a tax rise necessary then it will be voted for by anyone holding the whip and anyone who doesn't would lose the whip.
    Nope, any breach of the Tory manifesto on those taxes will be a breach of the platform those MPs won on, they will vote down such a budget without question and without those MPs the government has no majority.
    You are off your rocker again, there is a reason not a single soul is agreeing with you.

    MPs do not vote down the government on issues of confidence and supply and keep the whip - no ifs, no buts.

    You seem to think for some reason the Budget is not an issue of confidence and supply so I ask again just what do you think the "and supply" refers to?
    Governments which breach their core manifesto guarantees personally signed off by the PM not to raise income tax, NI or VAT do not get supported by their MPs on such a platform. It would be political suicide to vote for it and those MPs would even prefer an election now than in 4 years time facing certain defeat by voting for it.

    Though I repeat there may be a convention loss of Budget votes sees the government fall but there is no legal constitutional requirement for that to be so, only loss of a confidence vote does that. The chancellor would likely simply amend the Budget in response to a defeat to get it passed.

    However I have seen no evidence Sunak would be idiotic enough to raise income tax, NI or VAT in clear breach of the 2019 manifesto anyway, at most it will be things like equating CGT with income tax rates
  • MaxPB said:

    Just seen some new forecasts come through for Q3. City consensus looks like 17%, European and American banks closer to 15%, UK banks (and UK branches of European banks) closer to 20%. There isn't usually such a big spread but I think European banks especially have underestimated the scale of WFH in the UK and are misunderstanding the real-time indicators showing that public transport use is still only 55% of the prior year.

    One of our guys thinks that the £500m EOTHO spend has got close to a 9x economic multiplier based on transaction data we've received from POS and merchant services companies. He says it's the single most successful economic policy of the last 50 years. He thinks the chancellor should extend it for non franchise restaurants with 50 or fewer locations until the end of the year, essentially locking out the big chains like McDonalds and KFC but allowing smaller chains and independents to continue benefiting. It would also cut the cost of the policy by 50-60%.

    July GDP data is going to be a very big day for the UK, it should show that the UK is currently the fastest growing global economy and is having the best bounceback and give us a sense of where we're headed by December.

    I presume we have another week or so to wait for that?
    Found the data on transport usage -

    image

    Food for thought among the London centric, I think
    Wow so pretty much back at 100% for most of the country.

    And people were claiming here yesterday that Boris was lying for saying that huge numbers of people had gone back to work. I said here that the roads seem as busy as they were preCOVID and this demonstrates it.

    The country exists outside of London not that you'd know it from people saying "look at this empty Tube, nobody is working!"
    But the buses are empty in the bits of Islington that Guardian columnists aspire to live in.
    Not many journalists can realistically aspire to live in Islington. You need to have serious inherited wealth to live there, like Dominic Cummings or Boris Johnson*
    * until his wife threw him out.
    But they go to the pubs there and dream. And then go and write columns on the horrors of living in zone 4.
    Do they? I've never read one. Don't understand why anyone would want to live north of the river anyway.
    I'd have to dig - there was a hilarious one, not long ago, about how the writer felt his precious middle class status was slipping. He could only afford to live in a flat in a "bad" area, and his daughter was speaking in a "common" accent, picked up at the local school.

    Even he was trying to justify staying in London - he was a writer and had no actual desk to go to.....
    Ha ha my son is full on South London - innit tho fam.
    He (the writer) sounded throughly miserable, so I wouldn't laugh.

    It was just that if he moved out of London to the horrors of Wiltshire (say), he could be living in a nice village, his daughter at a grammar school etc.
    Hmm I've been to Malmesbury, no offence but I'd rather be living in South London.
  • So 2024 GE is going to be a re-hash of 2015 then
  • One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    From memory a Tweet Mr Blackford wrote in reply about an Eton education. Something on those lines. Blackford not Torcuil.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    edited September 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sorry, has HYUFD gone off the rails again

    Voting down a Tory budget, are you mad

    No, voting down a big tax rising budget which would be a left wing budget not a Tory budget anyway
    Horse do you see why I call him a "blue Corbynite"? He does not represent me or the party any more than Corbynites represent you.
    If you think keeping taxes low does not represent the views of most Tories you really are better off in the LDs or even Starmer Labour
    I think taxes and deficits need to be kept low.

    In order to keep the deficit low, which in the long term keeps taxes low, sometimes tax rises are necessary. Every Tory Chancellor worth their salt has had to increase taxes sometimes. Because sometimes its necessary - or sometimes it can balance out a tax cut elsewhere.
    The Tory manifesto promised not to raise income tax, national insurance or VAT, certainly if any of those were raised the rebellion from Tory MPs would be triple figures

    https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan
    That was pre-COVID.

    The Government will want to stick to that plan but if they deem a tax rise necessary then it will be voted for by anyone holding the whip and anyone who doesn't would lose the whip.
    Nope, any breach of the Tory manifesto on those taxes will be a breach of the platform those MPs won on, they will vote down such a budget without question and without those MPs the government has no majority.
    You are off your rocker again, there is a reason not a single soul is agreeing with you.

    MPs do not vote down the government on issues of confidence and supply and keep the whip - no ifs, no buts.

    You seem to think for some reason the Budget is not an issue of confidence and supply so I ask again just what do you think the "and supply" refers to?
    Governments which breach their core manifesto guarantees personally signed off by the PM not to raise income tax, NI or VAT do not get supported by their MPs on such a platform. It would be political suicide to vote for it and those MPs would even prefer an election now than in 4 years time facing certain defeat by voting for it.

    Though I repeat there may be a convention loss of Budget votes sees the government fall but there is no legal constitutional requirement for that to be so, only loss of a confidence vote does that.

    However I have seen no evidence Sunak would be idiotic enough to raise income tax, NI or VAT in clear breach of the 2019 manifesto anyway, at most it will be things like equating CGT with income tax rates
    How much would that raise, Young HY?

    And how much would he need to raise to pay off his deficit?

    And how would he do that?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited September 2020
    Carnyx said:

    One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
    Gaurn feed makes it clear (a) a lot of shite and (b) the security risks were to Mr Blackford.
    "12:43
    PMQs is over, but the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, allows a point of order.

    It’s from Ian Blackford, the SNP leader at Westminster. He says in August the Sun quoted a No 10 source blaming Blackford for revealing the location of the PM’s holiday in Scotland. He says this was a political smear. He says he did not reveal where the PM was staying, and was not aware of it. He says this has resulted in Blackford himself, and his family, facing security threats. He says Johnson’s face in the chamber suggests he does not take this seriously, but it is a serious matter.

    Johnson says he had a wonderful staycation in Blackford’s constituency. He says he is happy to accept the assurances Blackford gives. But he quotes a tweet from the Daily Record journalist Torcuil Crichton, which he seems to imply undermines what Blackford was saying.

    Here is the tweet. It does not at all prove what Johnson implies that it does (that Crichton heard about where Johnson was camping from Blackford).

    [tweet here]
    Hoyle says he is very concerned about the security implications."

    The TC tweet i shere ...

    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1295460638592991233

    Mr Johnson does not seem on top of the detail, no?
    Johnson was complaining that Blackford retweeted the Torcuil Crichton tweet and implied strongly that Crichton was referring to Johnson in his tweet [fair-skinned and from Eton].

    In this case Johnson has the greater complaint than Blackford IMO.

    EDIT. The Guardian corrected the take quoted above
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    eristdoof said:

    kamski said:

    If Trump does win in the EC, but loses the national vote by 2-3%, how sustainable is this? In a national vote for a national president, with effectively a 2 party system, that the party that keeps getting millions fewer votes keeps winning?

    Add to that the gerrymandered House and Senate, and the highly political judiciary stuffed with increasingly out of touch with majority opinion ultra-conservative judges - isn't it a recipe for the disenfranchised majority getting extremely pissed off?

    I agree with you, but have one pedantic point. The senate cannot be gerrymandered, unless state boundaries are redrawn, or significant populations are moved accross state borders. You can complain that Hawaii and Texas both having 2 senators is unfair, but that is not gerrymandering.

    The constituency boundaries in the House though, are a disgrace.
    Jungle primaries comes pretty close

    California Democrats legislate that the top 2 candidates in a primary are the only ones eligible to run for senator

    Hmmm: that means that it’s always only 2 Democrats that get to stand

    You can vote for anyone you like so long as they are a Democrat
    Ah, are Republicans banned from standing in the jungle primaries then?

    That sounds pretty serious.
    Only the top 2 candidates are allowed to stand in the election

    So (I think) in every election it has been 2 democrats running against each other.

    It’s introducing a hurdle which is deliberately designed to discriminate against a smaller but meaningful party.

    It basically prevents the splits in the Democrat voting base resulting in the GOP ever having the chance to win the senate seat
  • Carnyx said:

    Sorry to be obtuse, but just why is the Common Fisheries Policy so hated? Looks to me as though it's an effort to share out stocks reasonably fairly, although obviously various species of fish swim in different waters, due to temperature, food specials and so on.

    Because it shares out our stocks between multiple nations.

    When else do you ever see a nation's sovereign natural resource get shared out between countries? We don't share the North Sea Oil between the whole of Europe, why do we share our fish?
    IIRC it was done that way by a Conservative government to secure special privileges for the City of London. But that was a bit before myt time.

    It was also a convenient excuse fior overfishing/a whipping boy when conservation measures came in, eas it not?

    And some of the fishermen had done their bit to share it out by selling their rights to non-UK nationals.
    There's also the fact that fish swim around while oil stays put. This means that heavy fishing in one area can deplete the stocks in another, hence the need for a common fisheries policy.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kamski said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    If Trump does win in the EC, but loses the national vote by 2-3%, how sustainable is this? In a national vote for a national president, with effectively a 2 party system, that the party that keeps getting millions fewer votes keeps winning?

    Add to that the gerrymandered House and Senate, and the highly political judiciary stuffed with increasingly out of touch with majority opinion ultra-conservative judges - isn't it a recipe for the disenfranchised majority getting extremely pissed off?

    It's entirely sustainable. The Democrats if that happens will need to target states other than California.

    That is the system working by design and not a flaw.
    It IS a flaw, and plenty of Americans hate it quite understandably. The fact that you think it is a good system doesn't make it one. None of the better democracies use such a stupid system, and I don't see any country racing to copy it. That might tell you something.
    We use an equivalent one in the U.K.

    Fundamentally it represents communities not individuals.

    You disagree. Fine. But it’s not stupid
    But it doesn't represent communities. That's the bizarrest defence of the EC yet.
    It defines a state as a community - it’s just a language point
    You do realise that all the Electoral College does is choose the president and vice-president?
    Because your comments imply that you don't know this.
    I know that.

    The president is a federal role chosen by the states through the mechanism of the electoral college. That is deliberately different to a popular vote mechanism.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    It’s as if Johnson hasn’t realised that Corbyn is no longer LoTo.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kamski said:

    Charles said:

    kamski said:

    Charles said:

    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    If Trump does win in the EC, but loses the national vote by 2-3%, how sustainable is this? In a national vote for a national president, with effectively a 2 party system, that the party that keeps getting millions fewer votes keeps winning?

    Add to that the gerrymandered House and Senate, and the highly political judiciary stuffed with increasingly out of touch with majority opinion ultra-conservative judges - isn't it a recipe for the disenfranchised majority getting extremely pissed off?

    It's entirely sustainable. The Democrats if that happens will need to target states other than California.

    That is the system working by design and not a flaw.
    It IS a flaw, and plenty of Americans hate it quite understandably. The fact that you think it is a good system doesn't make it one. None of the better democracies use such a stupid system, and I don't see any country racing to copy it. That might tell you something.
    We use an equivalent one in the U.K.

    Fundamentally it represents communities not individuals.

    You disagree. Fine. But it’s not stupid
    The Electoral College is stupid (if you like it, fine, but it is still stupid). And we do not use an equivalent one in the UK.
    States / constituencies elect MPs

    The MPs caucus together and select a head of the executive branch

    What’s fundamentally different?
    The MPs don't then go home job done, they continue to represent their constituencies, and are also able select someone else as Prime Minister whenever they want. Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really believe there is any kind of comparison, in which case you are much stupider than I thought?
    How charming.

    MPs have multiple roles. They are both legislators and Electors.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    BoZo's message to MPs worried about how badly he has performed thus far...

    "These were the good times"

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1301163238185369600
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sorry, has HYUFD gone off the rails again

    Voting down a Tory budget, are you mad

    No, voting down a big tax rising budget which would be a left wing budget not a Tory budget anyway
    Horse do you see why I call him a "blue Corbynite"? He does not represent me or the party any more than Corbynites represent you.
    If you think keeping taxes low does not represent the views of most Tories you really are better off in the LDs or even Starmer Labour
    I think taxes and deficits need to be kept low.

    In order to keep the deficit low, which in the long term keeps taxes low, sometimes tax rises are necessary. Every Tory Chancellor worth their salt has had to increase taxes sometimes. Because sometimes its necessary - or sometimes it can balance out a tax cut elsewhere.
    The Tory manifesto promised not to raise income tax, national insurance or VAT, certainly if any of those were raised the rebellion from Tory MPs would be triple figures

    https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan
    That was pre-COVID.

    The Government will want to stick to that plan but if they deem a tax rise necessary then it will be voted for by anyone holding the whip and anyone who doesn't would lose the whip.
    Nope, any breach of the Tory manifesto on those taxes will be a breach of the platform those MPs won on, they will vote down such a budget without question and without those MPs the government has no majority.
    You are off your rocker again, there is a reason not a single soul is agreeing with you.

    MPs do not vote down the government on issues of confidence and supply and keep the whip - no ifs, no buts.

    You seem to think for some reason the Budget is not an issue of confidence and supply so I ask again just what do you think the "and supply" refers to?
    Governments which breach their core manifesto guarantees personally signed off by the PM not to raise income tax, NI or VAT do not get supported by their MPs on such a platform. It would be political suicide to vote for it and those MPs would even prefer an election now than in 4 years time facing certain defeat by voting for it.

    Though I repeat there may be a convention loss of Budget votes sees the government fall but there is no legal constitutional requirement for that to be so, only loss of a confidence vote does that.

    However I have seen no evidence Sunak would be idiotic enough to raise income tax, NI or VAT in clear breach of the 2019 manifesto anyway, at most it will be things like equating CGT with income tax rates
    How much would that raise, Young HY?

    And how uch would he need to raise to pay off his deficit?

    And how would he do that?
    The Tory Party is the party of low tax before it is the party of the deficit, if you raise taxes you lose, see Bush Snr 1992 even if you reduce the deficit.

    If people put cutting the deficit first they can vote for Davey's LDs.

    There is even an argument we should cut taxes to grow the economy now, once growth has been restored and revenues increased then we can start to repay the deficit again
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    DavidL said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    ClippP said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    The Tories are above 40% because - well everyone knows tax rises are coming. People are just hoping those tax rises won't disproportionately affect them. Soon as the tax rises hit the Tories are sub 40 with Labour taking a lead I think.

    Which is why Tory MPs will likely vote down any budget with significant tax rises
    If they do that, does is mean the end of the Johnson experiment? And of Cummings too?

    And if he does not get way with tax changes, will Sunak resign?

    I look forward to the reply from young HY...
    No, not necessarily but Tory MPs, especially newly elected ones now see themselves as closer to US Congressmen then voting fodder ie they will put what their voters want not what No 10 and 11 wants first
    Do you think that Cummings and Johnson have taken this factor into account when they go in for their war-gaming?
    Hmm... I think that they might want to ask those remainers such as Philip Hammond, Oliver Letwin and Dominic Grieve how that goes.
    Yes. Boris has shown from the start he means business.
    Will you be applying to the Beeb for one of the new 'right wing comedy' slots, Philip?

    I think you should strongly consider it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    ID cards are not necessarily a bad idea but of course it's Cummings so what he really wants is to mine our data and give the contracts to his friends

    No, ID cards are a terrible idea.

    A single sign on for government services is a good idea, providing that Ms @Cyclefree or a well-known privacy advocate is involved in setting it up to avoid the big database.
    As pointed out upthread, we already have one.

    As for ID cards, the reasons government want them is because they want the data, to monitor and surveil us and, most likely to monetise and sell it.

    And as far as my data is concerned, they can fuck right off.

    I was against Blair’s monstrous ID cards idea and I’m not going to go for this Brexit-Tory one either.

    Ah okay, I didn’t know there was already a single sign on.

    So they’re trying to do Blair’s ID card but without the actual card. No thanks.
  • Just wondering if PB Tories agree with Claire Fox, IRA supporter, going into the HoL, or whether their hatred for the IRA is only useful as a Labour attack line
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    eristdoof said:

    kamski said:

    If Trump does win in the EC, but loses the national vote by 2-3%, how sustainable is this? In a national vote for a national president, with effectively a 2 party system, that the party that keeps getting millions fewer votes keeps winning?

    Add to that the gerrymandered House and Senate, and the highly political judiciary stuffed with increasingly out of touch with majority opinion ultra-conservative judges - isn't it a recipe for the disenfranchised majority getting extremely pissed off?

    I agree with you, but have one pedantic point. The senate cannot be gerrymandered, unless state boundaries are redrawn, or significant populations are moved accross state borders. You can complain that Hawaii and Texas both having 2 senators is unfair, but that is not gerrymandering.

    The constituency boundaries in the House though, are a disgrace.
    Jungle primaries comes pretty close

    California Democrats legislate that the top 2 candidates in a primary are the only ones eligible to run for senator

    Hmmm: that means that it’s always only 2 Democrats that get to stand

    You can vote for anyone you like so long as they are a Democrat
    Ah, are Republicans banned from standing in the jungle primaries then?

    That sounds pretty serious.
    Only the top 2 candidates are allowed to stand in the election

    So (I think) in every election it has been 2 democrats running against each other.

    It’s introducing a hurdle which is deliberately designed to discriminate against a smaller but meaningful party.

    It basically prevents the splits in the Democrat voting base resulting in the GOP ever having the chance to win the senate seat
    Maybe Republicans could come up with policies that appeal to the average California voter, with sound economic policies, rather than their bizarre niche identity politics.

    It really sounds like you think Republicans should get special dispensation despite being unpopular.
  • ladupnorthladupnorth Posts: 93
    edited September 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    How many of the 12 original decisions did Starmer disagree with in advance, and how many of the revisions did he disagree with? Anyone know?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
    Gaurn feed makes it clear (a) a lot of shite and (b) the security risks were to Mr Blackford.
    "12:43
    PMQs is over, but the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, allows a point of order.

    It’s from Ian Blackford, the SNP leader at Westminster. He says in August the Sun quoted a No 10 source blaming Blackford for revealing the location of the PM’s holiday in Scotland. He says this was a political smear. He says he did not reveal where the PM was staying, and was not aware of it. He says this has resulted in Blackford himself, and his family, facing security threats. He says Johnson’s face in the chamber suggests he does not take this seriously, but it is a serious matter.

    Johnson says he had a wonderful staycation in Blackford’s constituency. He says he is happy to accept the assurances Blackford gives. But he quotes a tweet from the Daily Record journalist Torcuil Crichton, which he seems to imply undermines what Blackford was saying.

    Here is the tweet. It does not at all prove what Johnson implies that it does (that Crichton heard about where Johnson was camping from Blackford).

    [tweet here]
    Hoyle says he is very concerned about the security implications."

    The TC tweet i shere ...

    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1295460638592991233

    Mr Johnson does not seem on top of the detail, no?
    Johnson was complaining that Blackford retweeted the Torcuil Crichton tweet and implied strongly that Crichton was referring to Johnson in his tweet [fair-skinned and from Eton].

    In this case Johnson has the greater complaint than Blackford IMO.

    EDIT. The Guardian corrected the take quoted above
    FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
    Gaurn feed makes it clear (a) a lot of shite and (b) the security risks were to Mr Blackford.
    "12:43
    PMQs is over, but the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, allows a point of order.

    It’s from Ian Blackford, the SNP leader at Westminster. He says in August the Sun quoted a No 10 source blaming Blackford for revealing the location of the PM’s holiday in Scotland. He says this was a political smear. He says he did not reveal where the PM was staying, and was not aware of it. He says this has resulted in Blackford himself, and his family, facing security threats. He says Johnson’s face in the chamber suggests he does not take this seriously, but it is a serious matter.

    Johnson says he had a wonderful staycation in Blackford’s constituency. He says he is happy to accept the assurances Blackford gives. But he quotes a tweet from the Daily Record journalist Torcuil Crichton, which he seems to imply undermines what Blackford was saying.

    Here is the tweet. It does not at all prove what Johnson implies that it does (that Crichton heard about where Johnson was camping from Blackford).

    [tweet here]
    Hoyle says he is very concerned about the security implications."

    The TC tweet i shere ...

    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1295460638592991233

    Mr Johnson does not seem on top of the detail, no?
    Johnson was complaining that Blackford retweeted the Torcuil Crichton tweet and implied strongly that Crichton was referring to Johnson in his tweet [fair-skinned and from Eton].

    In this case Johnson has the greater complaint than Blackford IMO.

    EDIT. The Guardian corrected the take quoted above
    But it was well known that Mr J was camping in a 'remote' area in Scotland already - eg

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12357014/boris-johnson-carrie-symonds-camping-holiday/

    So pretty obvious who TC was referring to - I certainly read his tweet in that sense at the time. Though Mr B's crack did not help, I agree.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    How many years did Starmer serve in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet and campaign for him to be Prime Minister?

    Because that's this Labour hypocrisy in a nutshell.
    If that is the best you can come up with as an attack line the Tory party has a big problem...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited September 2020
    He keeps saying that, but fails to understand that British fish are no longer common EU resources. The U.K. is asking for simply a similar deal to those already done with Canada and Japan.
  • Just wondering if PB Tories agree with Claire Fox, IRA supporter, going into the HoL, or whether their hatred for the IRA is only useful as a Labour attack line

    I doubt the IRA stuff is a useful attack line for anyone nowadays.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    edited September 2020
    Sandpit said:

    He keeps saying that, but fails to understand that British fish are no longer common EU resources.
    Did Mr Grayling remember to tell the fish wehn they cross the borders?* Or arrange to issue them with blue passports?

    *I won't even ask about the Irish Sea.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    eek said:

    How many years did Starmer serve in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet and campaign for him to be Prime Minister?

    Because that's this Labour hypocrisy in a nutshell.
    If that is the best you can come up with as an attack line the Tory party has a big problem...
    We're always told we have a 'big problem'. We're always told we're finished. But then election time comes round, and ...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608

    Just wondering if PB Tories agree with Claire Fox, IRA supporter, going into the HoL, or whether their hatred for the IRA is only useful as a Labour attack line

    Anything that allows you to make that point means either (a) Claire must REALLY have impressed to make the pain worth it or (b) people who proposed her don't give a shit about her past pronouncements.
  • FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
    Gaurn feed makes it clear (a) a lot of shite and (b) the security risks were to Mr Blackford.
    "12:43
    PMQs is over, but the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, allows a point of order.

    It’s from Ian Blackford, the SNP leader at Westminster. He says in August the Sun quoted a No 10 source blaming Blackford for revealing the location of the PM’s holiday in Scotland. He says this was a political smear. He says he did not reveal where the PM was staying, and was not aware of it. He says this has resulted in Blackford himself, and his family, facing security threats. He says Johnson’s face in the chamber suggests he does not take this seriously, but it is a serious matter.

    Johnson says he had a wonderful staycation in Blackford’s constituency. He says he is happy to accept the assurances Blackford gives. But he quotes a tweet from the Daily Record journalist Torcuil Crichton, which he seems to imply undermines what Blackford was saying.

    Here is the tweet. It does not at all prove what Johnson implies that it does (that Crichton heard about where Johnson was camping from Blackford).

    [tweet here]
    Hoyle says he is very concerned about the security implications."

    The TC tweet i shere ...

    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1295460638592991233

    Mr Johnson does not seem on top of the detail, no?
    Johnson was complaining that Blackford retweeted the Torcuil Crichton tweet and implied strongly that Crichton was referring to Johnson in his tweet [fair-skinned and from Eton].

    In this case Johnson has the greater complaint than Blackford IMO.

    EDIT. The Guardian corrected the take quoted above
    Wester Ross is 600+ square miles in area. I fear that the GRU assassins may have had their work cut out for them, particularly as there would be no shortage of fair skinned Old Etonians kicking about the place at that time of the year.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    He keeps saying that, but fails to understand that British fish are no longer common EU resources.
    Did Mr Grayling remember to tell the fish wehn they cross the borders?* Or arrange to issue them with blue passports?

    *I won't even ask about the Irish Sea.
    Will we have to sort out a new agreement with Iceland, the Faros and Norway? Or don't we fish the waters any more?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    Is ANYBODY listening to Barnier any more?

    The rest of the EU. The ones that matter.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Ah I see. Hike taxes and then promise to slash them if reelected in 2024.

    "We've come through the storm together, we the People's Conservative government and you the People. Now is the time to reap the rewards. Don't let all your sacrifice and hard work be in vain. Don't let Labour spoil it all. You know what they're like, Labour. They're like teenagers. You can't trust them with money."
  • Sandpit said:

    He keeps saying that, but fails to understand that British fish are no longer common EU resources. The U.K. is asking for simply a similar deal to those already done with Canada and Japan.
    Didn't some EU companies buy fishing rights - in a similar way that foreign companies buy UK companies?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52420116
  • Just wondering if PB Tories agree with Claire Fox, IRA supporter, going into the HoL, or whether their hatred for the IRA is only useful as a Labour attack line

    Anything that allows you to make that point means either (a) Claire must REALLY have impressed to make the pain worth it or (b) people who proposed her don't give a shit about her past pronouncements.
    Which makes it doubly strange why Johnson brought it up in the HoC today
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Scott_xP said:
    No mater what people might think of Kushner, this is what he’s been doing in the Middle East this week - genuinely ground-breaking.
    https://twitter.com/TheNationalUAE/status/1300781506630242304
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
    Gaurn feed makes it clear (a) a lot of shite and (b) the security risks were to Mr Blackford.
    "12:43
    PMQs is over, but the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, allows a point of order.

    It’s from Ian Blackford, the SNP leader at Westminster. He says in August the Sun quoted a No 10 source blaming Blackford for revealing the location of the PM’s holiday in Scotland. He says this was a political smear. He says he did not reveal where the PM was staying, and was not aware of it. He says this has resulted in Blackford himself, and his family, facing security threats. He says Johnson’s face in the chamber suggests he does not take this seriously, but it is a serious matter.

    Johnson says he had a wonderful staycation in Blackford’s constituency. He says he is happy to accept the assurances Blackford gives. But he quotes a tweet from the Daily Record journalist Torcuil Crichton, which he seems to imply undermines what Blackford was saying.

    Here is the tweet. It does not at all prove what Johnson implies that it does (that Crichton heard about where Johnson was camping from Blackford).

    [tweet here]
    Hoyle says he is very concerned about the security implications."

    The TC tweet i shere ...

    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1295460638592991233

    Mr Johnson does not seem on top of the detail, no?
    Johnson was complaining that Blackford retweeted the Torcuil Crichton tweet and implied strongly that Crichton was referring to Johnson in his tweet [fair-skinned and from Eton].

    In this case Johnson has the greater complaint than Blackford IMO.

    EDIT. The Guardian corrected the take quoted above
    Wester Ross is 600+ square miles in area. I fear that the GRU assassins may have had their work cut out for them, particularly as there would be no shortage of fair skinned Old Etonians kicking about the place at that time of the year.
    Reminds one of a passage in Paul Torday's 'Salmon Fishing in the Yemen'!
  • FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
    Gaurn feed makes it clear (a) a lot of shite and (b) the security risks were to Mr Blackford.
    "12:43
    PMQs is over, but the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, allows a point of order.

    It’s from Ian Blackford, the SNP leader at Westminster. He says in August the Sun quoted a No 10 source blaming Blackford for revealing the location of the PM’s holiday in Scotland. He says this was a political smear. He says he did not reveal where the PM was staying, and was not aware of it. He says this has resulted in Blackford himself, and his family, facing security threats. He says Johnson’s face in the chamber suggests he does not take this seriously, but it is a serious matter.

    Johnson says he had a wonderful staycation in Blackford’s constituency. He says he is happy to accept the assurances Blackford gives. But he quotes a tweet from the Daily Record journalist Torcuil Crichton, which he seems to imply undermines what Blackford was saying.

    Here is the tweet. It does not at all prove what Johnson implies that it does (that Crichton heard about where Johnson was camping from Blackford).

    [tweet here]
    Hoyle says he is very concerned about the security implications."

    The TC tweet i shere ...

    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1295460638592991233

    Mr Johnson does not seem on top of the detail, no?
    Johnson was complaining that Blackford retweeted the Torcuil Crichton tweet and implied strongly that Crichton was referring to Johnson in his tweet [fair-skinned and from Eton].

    In this case Johnson has the greater complaint than Blackford IMO.

    EDIT. The Guardian corrected the take quoted above
    Wester Ross is 600+ square miles in area. I fear that the GRU assassins may have had their work cut out for them, particularly as there would be no shortage of fair skinned Old Etonians kicking about the place at that time of the year.
    Is it even true that fair skinned people suffer more from midges? My wife, who is much darker skinned than me, came off far worse in our recent encounter with midges. Perhaps my comprehensive schooling offered me some protection?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    Sandpit said:

    He keeps saying that, but fails to understand that British fish are no longer common EU resources. The U.K. is asking for simply a similar deal to those already done with Canada and Japan.
    Didn't some EU companies buy fishing rights - in a similar way that foreign companies buy UK companies?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52420116
    Who could sell them; the UK Government or the fishermen?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    He keeps saying that, but fails to understand that British fish are no longer common EU resources.
    Did Mr Grayling remember to tell the fish wehn they cross the borders?* Or arrange to issue them with blue passports?

    *I won't even ask about the Irish Sea.
    Will we have to sort out a new agreement with Iceland, the Faros and Norway? Or don't we fish the waters any more?
    Coincidentally I've been sorting through some old books on the Royal Navy. Some photos of the Cod Wars - sending frigates in to play dodgems with Icelandic gunboats with ice-reinforced bows, and not always coming off the better, because British fishermen had the right to fish in other folks' waters. One doesn't hear much about that naval campaign these days. I certainly sympathise with the sailors sent to those waters!
  • FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
    Gaurn feed makes it clear (a) a lot of shite and (b) the security risks were to Mr Blackford.
    "12:43
    PMQs is over, but the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, allows a point of order.

    It’s from Ian Blackford, the SNP leader at Westminster. He says in August the Sun quoted a No 10 source blaming Blackford for revealing the location of the PM’s holiday in Scotland. He says this was a political smear. He says he did not reveal where the PM was staying, and was not aware of it. He says this has resulted in Blackford himself, and his family, facing security threats. He says Johnson’s face in the chamber suggests he does not take this seriously, but it is a serious matter.

    Johnson says he had a wonderful staycation in Blackford’s constituency. He says he is happy to accept the assurances Blackford gives. But he quotes a tweet from the Daily Record journalist Torcuil Crichton, which he seems to imply undermines what Blackford was saying.

    Here is the tweet. It does not at all prove what Johnson implies that it does (that Crichton heard about where Johnson was camping from Blackford).

    [tweet here]
    Hoyle says he is very concerned about the security implications."

    The TC tweet i shere ...

    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1295460638592991233

    Mr Johnson does not seem on top of the detail, no?
    Johnson was complaining that Blackford retweeted the Torcuil Crichton tweet and implied strongly that Crichton was referring to Johnson in his tweet [fair-skinned and from Eton].

    In this case Johnson has the greater complaint than Blackford IMO.

    EDIT. The Guardian corrected the take quoted above
    Wester Ross is 600+ square miles in area. I fear that the GRU assassins may have had their work cut out for them, particularly as there would be no shortage of fair skinned Old Etonians kicking about the place at that time of the year.
    Is it even true that fair skinned people suffer more from midges? My wife, who is much darker skinned than me, came off far worse in our recent encounter with midges. Perhaps my comprehensive schooling offered me some protection?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Carnyx said:

    FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
    Gaurn feed makes it clear (a) a lot of shite and (b) the security risks were to Mr Blackford.
    "12:43
    PMQs is over, but the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, allows a point of order.

    It’s from Ian Blackford, the SNP leader at Westminster. He says in August the Sun quoted a No 10 source blaming Blackford for revealing the location of the PM’s holiday in Scotland. He says this was a political smear. He says he did not reveal where the PM was staying, and was not aware of it. He says this has resulted in Blackford himself, and his family, facing security threats. He says Johnson’s face in the chamber suggests he does not take this seriously, but it is a serious matter.

    Johnson says he had a wonderful staycation in Blackford’s constituency. He says he is happy to accept the assurances Blackford gives. But he quotes a tweet from the Daily Record journalist Torcuil Crichton, which he seems to imply undermines what Blackford was saying.

    Here is the tweet. It does not at all prove what Johnson implies that it does (that Crichton heard about where Johnson was camping from Blackford).

    [tweet here]
    Hoyle says he is very concerned about the security implications."

    The TC tweet i shere ...

    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1295460638592991233

    Mr Johnson does not seem on top of the detail, no?
    Johnson was complaining that Blackford retweeted the Torcuil Crichton tweet and implied strongly that Crichton was referring to Johnson in his tweet [fair-skinned and from Eton].

    In this case Johnson has the greater complaint than Blackford IMO.

    EDIT. The Guardian corrected the take quoted above

    But it was well known that Mr J was camping in a 'remote' area in Scotland already - eg

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12357014/boris-johnson-carrie-symonds-camping-holiday/

    So pretty obvious who TC was referring to - I certainly read his tweet in that sense at the time. Though Mr B's crack did not help, I agree.
    Point Johnson is making, correctly in my view, is that Blackford is disingenuous in his accusations of No 10 smearing him. He did reveal through implication where the PM was staying. And obviously in that case he also knew or believed Johnson to be there, despite his current denial.

    If Blackford hadn't sent out that tweet his complaint would be justified. But he did, and it isn't.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Sandpit said:

    He keeps saying that, but fails to understand that British fish are no longer common EU resources. The U.K. is asking for simply a similar deal to those already done with Canada and Japan.
    Didn't some EU companies buy fishing rights - in a similar way that foreign companies buy UK companies?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52420116
    Who could sell them; the UK Government or the fishermen?
    The fishermen, which is one thing I don't understand - what happens when the current system ends?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    eek said:

    How many years did Starmer serve in Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet and campaign for him to be Prime Minister?

    Because that's this Labour hypocrisy in a nutshell.
    If that is the best you can come up with as an attack line the Tory party has a big problem...
    Let's see what the EHRC report says - and how Starmer handles questions about his being part of the Shadow Cabinet that the report will pass judgment upon.

    The draft was given to Labour in July. They had 28 days to comment, so the report could be published imminently.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
    Gaurn feed makes it clear (a) a lot of shite and (b) the security risks were to Mr Blackford.
    "12:43
    PMQs is over, but the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, allows a point of order.

    It’s from Ian Blackford, the SNP leader at Westminster. He says in August the Sun quoted a No 10 source blaming Blackford for revealing the location of the PM’s holiday in Scotland. He says this was a political smear. He says he did not reveal where the PM was staying, and was not aware of it. He says this has resulted in Blackford himself, and his family, facing security threats. He says Johnson’s face in the chamber suggests he does not take this seriously, but it is a serious matter.

    Johnson says he had a wonderful staycation in Blackford’s constituency. He says he is happy to accept the assurances Blackford gives. But he quotes a tweet from the Daily Record journalist Torcuil Crichton, which he seems to imply undermines what Blackford was saying.

    Here is the tweet. It does not at all prove what Johnson implies that it does (that Crichton heard about where Johnson was camping from Blackford).

    [tweet here]
    Hoyle says he is very concerned about the security implications."

    The TC tweet i shere ...

    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1295460638592991233

    Mr Johnson does not seem on top of the detail, no?
    Johnson was complaining that Blackford retweeted the Torcuil Crichton tweet and implied strongly that Crichton was referring to Johnson in his tweet [fair-skinned and from Eton].

    In this case Johnson has the greater complaint than Blackford IMO.

    EDIT. The Guardian corrected the take quoted above
    Wester Ross is 600+ square miles in area. I fear that the GRU assassins may have had their work cut out for them, particularly as there would be no shortage of fair skinned Old Etonians kicking about the place at that time of the year.
    Is it even true that fair skinned people suffer more from midges? My wife, who is much darker skinned than me, came off far worse in our recent encounter with midges. Perhaps my comprehensive schooling offered me some protection?
    I've never heard such a thing - my dark haired partner is also more susceptible than gingery me.

    I think Torcuil Crichton was just being mischievous.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    FF43 said:

    Carnyx said:

    One of the lesser piles of bullshit BJ managed to step in at PMQs, but sill delightfully pungent.

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/1301126412833820673?s=20

    That's not all Boris said, what was the next part that Boris said about what a certain Mr Blackford said in reply about midges?
    Did it reveal what the justification was for suggesting Blackford was involved in endangering BJ's safety?
    Yes.
    Which was?
    You'll have to watch the clip sorry, I don't have the transcript or a link.
    Gaurn feed makes it clear (a) a lot of shite and (b) the security risks were to Mr Blackford.
    "12:43
    PMQs is over, but the Speaker, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, allows a point of order.

    It’s from Ian Blackford, the SNP leader at Westminster. He says in August the Sun quoted a No 10 source blaming Blackford for revealing the location of the PM’s holiday in Scotland. He says this was a political smear. He says he did not reveal where the PM was staying, and was not aware of it. He says this has resulted in Blackford himself, and his family, facing security threats. He says Johnson’s face in the chamber suggests he does not take this seriously, but it is a serious matter.

    Johnson says he had a wonderful staycation in Blackford’s constituency. He says he is happy to accept the assurances Blackford gives. But he quotes a tweet from the Daily Record journalist Torcuil Crichton, which he seems to imply undermines what Blackford was saying.

    Here is the tweet. It does not at all prove what Johnson implies that it does (that Crichton heard about where Johnson was camping from Blackford).

    [tweet here]
    Hoyle says he is very concerned about the security implications."

    The TC tweet i shere ...

    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1295460638592991233

    Mr Johnson does not seem on top of the detail, no?
    Johnson was complaining that Blackford retweeted the Torcuil Crichton tweet and implied strongly that Crichton was referring to Johnson in his tweet [fair-skinned and from Eton].

    In this case Johnson has the greater complaint than Blackford IMO.

    EDIT. The Guardian corrected the take quoted above

    But it was well known that Mr J was camping in a 'remote' area in Scotland already - eg

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12357014/boris-johnson-carrie-symonds-camping-holiday/

    So pretty obvious who TC was referring to - I certainly read his tweet in that sense at the time. Though Mr B's crack did not help, I agree.
    Point Johnson is making, correctly in my view, is that Blackford is disingenuous in his accusations of No 10 smearing him. He did reveal through implication where the PM was staying. And obviously in that case he also knew or believed Johnson to be there, despite his current denial.

    If Blackford hadn't sent out that tweet his complaint would be justified. But he did, and it isn't.
    Didn't reveal it - at best corroborated it (all of Wester Ross?) - but agreed, not sensible.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited September 2020
    Not to those of us who live in North Wales, indeed my daughter and her family live very close to the Castle
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    eristdoof said:

    kamski said:

    If Trump does win in the EC, but loses the national vote by 2-3%, how sustainable is this? In a national vote for a national president, with effectively a 2 party system, that the party that keeps getting millions fewer votes keeps winning?

    Add to that the gerrymandered House and Senate, and the highly political judiciary stuffed with increasingly out of touch with majority opinion ultra-conservative judges - isn't it a recipe for the disenfranchised majority getting extremely pissed off?

    I agree with you, but have one pedantic point. The senate cannot be gerrymandered, unless state boundaries are redrawn, or significant populations are moved accross state borders. You can complain that Hawaii and Texas both having 2 senators is unfair, but that is not gerrymandering.

    The constituency boundaries in the House though, are a disgrace.
    Jungle primaries comes pretty close

    California Democrats legislate that the top 2 candidates in a primary are the only ones eligible to run for senator

    Hmmm: that means that it’s always only 2 Democrats that get to stand

    You can vote for anyone you like so long as they are a Democrat
    Ah, are Republicans banned from standing in the jungle primaries then?

    That sounds pretty serious.
    Only the top 2 candidates are allowed to stand in the election

    So (I think) in every election it has been 2 democrats running against each other.

    It’s introducing a hurdle which is deliberately designed to discriminate against a smaller but meaningful party.

    It basically prevents the splits in the Democrat voting base resulting in the GOP ever having the chance to win the senate seat
    So is this a run-off election where every voter gets a free choice from all candidates in the first round, and the top two go through to round two?
    Or is the first round run like the usual US primaries with only registered voters voting choosing from Dem candidates and only Republican Voters choosing from GOP candidates, and if second place Dem gets more votes than the top GOP candidate then both Dems go through to the "second round"?

    If it's the first, I don't really see anything wrong, if it's the second that's bad. It does mean that there is an insentive to vote in the primaries though, and if the Republicans could get a succesful "Register as a Republican Voter" campaign, it might nullify the Dem advantage.

    That said there is so much wrong in US democracy, that this is not so high up on the list.
  • Carnyx said:

    Sorry to be obtuse, but just why is the Common Fisheries Policy so hated? Looks to me as though it's an effort to share out stocks reasonably fairly, although obviously various species of fish swim in different waters, due to temperature, food specials and so on.

    Because it shares out our stocks between multiple nations.

    When else do you ever see a nation's sovereign natural resource get shared out between countries? We don't share the North Sea Oil between the whole of Europe, why do we share our fish?
    IIRC it was done that way by a Conservative government to secure special privileges for the City of London. But that was a bit before myt time.

    It was also a convenient excuse fior overfishing/a whipping boy when conservation measures came in, eas it not?

    And some of the fishermen had done their bit to share it out by selling their rights to non-UK nationals.
    The rights and wrongs of UK fishermen selling their individual quotas to overseas concerns is quite a different issue to the UK's quota under the CFP, and it's not that helpful to conflate the two.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Is ANYBODY listening to Barnier any more?

    The rest of the EU. The ones that matter.
    And in the event of no deal Barnier will forever be the EU negotiator who lost the UK to Europe

    Not the legacy he would have wanted
  • Sorry to be obtuse, but just why is the Common Fisheries Policy so hated? Looks to me as though it's an effort to share out stocks reasonably fairly, although obviously various species of fish swim in different waters, due to temperature, food specials and so on.

    Because it shares out our stocks between multiple nations.

    When else do you ever see a nation's sovereign natural resource get shared out between countries? We don't share the North Sea Oil between the whole of Europe, why do we share our fish?
    Presumably then our lads can fish in Irish, French or Portuguese (etc) waters?
    Certainly Irish fishing boats fish in Spanish waters. There's some bad feeling about it though, and the Irish boats aren't welcomed in Spanish ports. They normally land their catch back in Ireland even when it's then sent straight back to Spain.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    Scott_xP said:

    Is ANYBODY listening to Barnier any more?

    The rest of the EU. The ones that matter.
    We'll see. Easy to cut him adrift at five to midnight.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Putin to me resembles a gangster more than he does a politician. I just do not understand the attraction. These "Strongman" leaders who are all the rage these days, they seem to validate and celebrate everything that is worst in human nature. Possessiveness. Narcissism. Spite. Vengefulness. Primitive views on race and gender. You name it, they exhibit it and feed it. Such a downer that so many of them are prospering and fouling up the place. 3/11 will, I hope and expect, strike a much needed blow the other way.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Andy_JS said:
    Even for Peter Hitchens you need a jump in logic for a law to go from Australia to Scotland and then to England.
  • Sorry to be obtuse, but just why is the Common Fisheries Policy so hated? Looks to me as though it's an effort to share out stocks reasonably fairly, although obviously various species of fish swim in different waters, due to temperature, food specials and so on.

    Because it shares out our stocks between multiple nations.

    When else do you ever see a nation's sovereign natural resource get shared out between countries? We don't share the North Sea Oil between the whole of Europe, why do we share our fish?
    Presumably then our lads can fish in Irish, French or Portuguese (etc) waters?
    Not exactly.

    Yes they can fish in other waters but it is stocks that matter. Our share of stocks is artificially deflated so does not represent the UK's natural sovereign resources in our waters. So we lose out.

    Being able to fish in other waters might be nice if we were getting from those waters the same stocks we are letting people take from ours . . . but that's not the case.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Is ANYBODY listening to Barnier any more?

    The rest of the EU. The ones that matter.
    And in the event of no deal Barnier will forever be the EU negotiator who lost the UK to Europe

    Not the legacy he would have wanted
    I'm sorry but "lost the UK to Europe"? I think you need to drop the hyperbole. If the UK leaves the transition period on 1 January 2021 without an FTA with the EU the negotiations will continue until one is agreed: its not like the withdrawal agreement with a hard deadline. As far as the EU is concerned the Withdrawal Agreement is signed, the money paid, the citizens rights protected and the Northern Ireland protocol being effected.

    The UK is asking for an FTA and the EU is setting out the terms for one eventually the UK will agree. Michel Barnier would be the negotiator who followed his brief not to compromise the Customs Union and Single Market but allowing the UK unbalanced access to it.

    On and by the way on the fish this is from a recent article in the Economist:

    "“it is worth emphasising that under international law, Britain can never revert to becoming an independent coastal state. This nationalistic trope was eagerly seized upon by Brexiteers. Unfortunately for them there is a binding international treaty obligation on post-Brexit Britain to allow any surplus fisheries within the United Kingdom’s 200 nautical mile exclusive economic (fishing) zone to be shared with fishermen from other countries, especially those who have traditionally fished in British waters.

    This obligation is contained within the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. Non-compliance may result in the British government being brought before a Conciliation Commission. While conciliation sounds friendly, a similar commission established as a result of an application by the tiny state of East Timor ultimately led to mighty Australia being compelled to negotiate a maritime boundary treaty that, inter alia, provides for the equitable sharing of any offshore hydrocarbon resources found in the seabed between these two countries.”
  • Scott_xP said:

    Is ANYBODY listening to Barnier any more?

    The rest of the EU. The ones that matter.
    And in the event of no deal Barnier will forever be the EU negotiator who lost the UK to Europe

    Not the legacy he would have wanted
    The UK is already lost to Europe. Barnier's job is to get the best deal he can without threatening the integrity of the Single Market. Whether such a deal is possible is largely in the hands of the UK.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Is ANYBODY listening to Barnier any more?

    The rest of the EU. The ones that matter.
    And in the event of no deal Barnier will forever be the EU negotiator who lost the UK to Europe

    Not the legacy he would have wanted
    In the event of no deal, how much blame should be apportioned to UK negotiators?
  • Sorry to be obtuse, but just why is the Common Fisheries Policy so hated? Looks to me as though it's an effort to share out stocks reasonably fairly, although obviously various species of fish swim in different waters, due to temperature, food specials and so on.

    Because it shares out our stocks between multiple nations.

    When else do you ever see a nation's sovereign natural resource get shared out between countries? We don't share the North Sea Oil between the whole of Europe, why do we share our fish?
    Presumably then our lads can fish in Irish, French or Portuguese (etc) waters?
    Not exactly.

    Yes they can fish in other waters but it is stocks that matter. Our share of stocks is artificially deflated so does not represent the UK's natural sovereign resources in our waters. So we lose out.

    Being able to fish in other waters might be nice if we were getting from those waters the same stocks we are letting people take from ours . . . but that's not the case.
    If that is indeed the case, why did we agree to having our share of the stocks "artificially deflated"? Was this in return for something else?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Carnyx said:

    Sorry to be obtuse, but just why is the Common Fisheries Policy so hated? Looks to me as though it's an effort to share out stocks reasonably fairly, although obviously various species of fish swim in different waters, due to temperature, food specials and so on.

    Because it shares out our stocks between multiple nations.

    When else do you ever see a nation's sovereign natural resource get shared out between countries? We don't share the North Sea Oil between the whole of Europe, why do we share our fish?
    IIRC it was done that way by a Conservative government to secure special privileges for the City of London. But that was a bit before myt time.

    It was also a convenient excuse fior overfishing/a whipping boy when conservation measures came in, eas it not?

    And some of the fishermen had done their bit to share it out by selling their rights to non-UK nationals.
    There's also the fact that fish swim around while oil stays put. This means that heavy fishing in one area can deplete the stocks in another, hence the need for a common fisheries policy.
    Everyone (sensible anyway) agrees with the fact that there is a common interest in managing fish stocks

    There are fundamental disagreements on how to do that

    And the CFP is horribly adverse to U.K. interests - it was where Heath was legged over but accepted it as the price of getting a deal done on EC entry IIRC
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Scott_xP said:

    Is ANYBODY listening to Barnier any more?

    The rest of the EU. The ones that matter.
    And in the event of no deal Barnier will forever be the EU negotiator who lost the UK to Europe

    Not the legacy he would have wanted
    No Deal in Channel, Continent cut off will be his epitaph.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Sorry to be obtuse, but just why is the Common Fisheries Policy so hated? Looks to me as though it's an effort to share out stocks reasonably fairly, although obviously various species of fish swim in different waters, due to temperature, food specials and so on.

    Because it shares out our stocks between multiple nations.

    When else do you ever see a nation's sovereign natural resource get shared out between countries? We don't share the North Sea Oil between the whole of Europe, why do we share our fish?
    Presumably then our lads can fish in Irish, French or Portuguese (etc) waters?
    Not exactly.

    Yes they can fish in other waters but it is stocks that matter. Our share of stocks is artificially deflated so does not represent the UK's natural sovereign resources in our waters. So we lose out.

    Being able to fish in other waters might be nice if we were getting from those waters the same stocks we are letting people take from ours . . . but that's not the case.
    If that is indeed the case, why did we agree to having our share of the stocks "artificially deflated"? Was this in return for something else?
    Yep, more goodies for the City.
  • Does rather suggest some of the righteous indignation directed Corbyn’s way was somewhat fabricated.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2020
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    He keeps saying that, but fails to understand that British fish are no longer common EU resources. The U.K. is asking for simply a similar deal to those already done with Canada and Japan.
    Didn't some EU companies buy fishing rights - in a similar way that foreign companies buy UK companies?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52420116
    Who could sell them; the UK Government or the fishermen?
    The fishermen, which is one thing I don't understand - what happens when the current system ends?
    If the current system ends then the rights lapse. A new system will need to be created to issue new rights. Depending upon how the rights were framed there may or may not be compensation for this and the possibility for rights lapsing has always existed.

    This for instance happened when the EU abolished its milk quotas - the value of the quotas that were purchased was simply lost when the scheme lapsed and farmers had to write off the value of the milk quotas they had paid for, with no compensation given I believe.

    https://www.fwi.co.uk/business/milk-quota-abolition-everything-need-know
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Scott_xP said:

    Is ANYBODY listening to Barnier any more?

    The rest of the EU. The ones that matter.
    We'll see. Easy to cut him adrift at five to midnight.....
    Oh yes, I forgot, we hold all the cards.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Is ANYBODY listening to Barnier any more?

    The rest of the EU. The ones that matter.
    We'll see. Easy to cut him adrift at five to midnight.....
    Oh yes, I forgot, we hold all the cards.
    Indeed and don't you forget it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    Charles said:

    Carnyx said:

    Sorry to be obtuse, but just why is the Common Fisheries Policy so hated? Looks to me as though it's an effort to share out stocks reasonably fairly, although obviously various species of fish swim in different waters, due to temperature, food specials and so on.

    Because it shares out our stocks between multiple nations.

    When else do you ever see a nation's sovereign natural resource get shared out between countries? We don't share the North Sea Oil between the whole of Europe, why do we share our fish?
    IIRC it was done that way by a Conservative government to secure special privileges for the City of London. But that was a bit before myt time.

    It was also a convenient excuse fior overfishing/a whipping boy when conservation measures came in, eas it not?

    And some of the fishermen had done their bit to share it out by selling their rights to non-UK nationals.
    There's also the fact that fish swim around while oil stays put. This means that heavy fishing in one area can deplete the stocks in another, hence the need for a common fisheries policy.
    Everyone (sensible anyway) agrees with the fact that there is a common interest in managing fish stocks

    There are fundamental disagreements on how to do that

    And the CFP is horribly adverse to U.K. interests - it was where Heath was legged over but accepted it as the price of getting a deal done on EC entry IIRC
    CFP came later than the Heath deal. Mrs T was at the helm by then, see this take on the matter (which is not quite what is portrayed in Brexiter discourse)

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/06/ukip-british-fishing-westminster-brussels-brexit
  • eek said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Even for Peter Hitchens you need a jump in logic for a law to go from Australia to Scotland and then to England.
    Priti needs to get more involved in securing our borders against being swamped by them foreign laws.
This discussion has been closed.