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  • Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
  • Did Bozo phone Trump and get put on hold?
  • kle4 said:

    I do somewhat struggle with emphasising the disparate and diverse nature of the movement as a positive, but still having the centralised authority to declare which elements of it are representative of it and which are not. I have no real idea which views within it are fringe and which are not.
    In the old days the banner would not have been noticed but now everybody has a phone and these things get picked up and so organisers have to say what they are , what they are not, who is naughty and who is nice to the nth degree. SO tedious really .
  • Alistair said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The ZeroCovid debate: can the disease be eliminated?
    Professor Devi Sridhar makes the case for why we should not tolerate any level of Covid-19"

    https://unherd.com/2020/08/the-zerocovid-debate-can-the-disease-be-eliminated/

    The problem with the elimination strategy is, of course, it involves an enormous amount of pain and effort, at the end of which the "successful" country concerned will then be so afraid of it breaking out again that it will resort to almost any extreme to stamp out fresh outbreaks.

    In other words, it would be exactly like New Zealand. One week:"It's gone, no more horrid masks, we can go back to normal, hooray!" The next week: "A case has been detected in London. Panic panic panic! Everyone in London must now spend six weeks locked in their home. No leaving under any circumstances except to buy food."

    Except, of course, at least New Zealand is so bloody remote that they wouldn't be getting new clusters seeded on a weekly basis by the constant to-ing and fro-ing of truck drivers, or migrants stowing away in the backs of their lorries.
    How long before these zealots have moved onto zero-influenza? We will be in and out of lockdown for the rest of our lives.
    You don't see the benefits of a zero cold strategy?
    In anecdata, from family and friends the cold seems to be running rife in the schools in Scotland, despite all the extra precautions. So let's hope that that isn't also the case with covid.
    My niece has been to a summer scheme and got a cold which she’s given to her family. Hopefully children are genuinely less likely to spread COVID compared with colds that they seem to be brilliant at spreading.
    I'd say it is more that people are paying attention to their children's colds for the first time.

    Children who would normally have gone in to school with a snotty nose are being held back.
    Its like at the start of this pandemic if you were in a supermarket and somebody coughed then everyone would turn and look at the person who coughed.

    Previously you wouldn't have even noticed it.

    Its just observation bias that's all.
  • Alistair said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The ZeroCovid debate: can the disease be eliminated?
    Professor Devi Sridhar makes the case for why we should not tolerate any level of Covid-19"

    https://unherd.com/2020/08/the-zerocovid-debate-can-the-disease-be-eliminated/

    The problem with the elimination strategy is, of course, it involves an enormous amount of pain and effort, at the end of which the "successful" country concerned will then be so afraid of it breaking out again that it will resort to almost any extreme to stamp out fresh outbreaks.

    In other words, it would be exactly like New Zealand. One week:"It's gone, no more horrid masks, we can go back to normal, hooray!" The next week: "A case has been detected in London. Panic panic panic! Everyone in London must now spend six weeks locked in their home. No leaving under any circumstances except to buy food."

    Except, of course, at least New Zealand is so bloody remote that they wouldn't be getting new clusters seeded on a weekly basis by the constant to-ing and fro-ing of truck drivers, or migrants stowing away in the backs of their lorries.
    How long before these zealots have moved onto zero-influenza? We will be in and out of lockdown for the rest of our lives.
    You don't see the benefits of a zero cold strategy?
    In anecdata, from family and friends the cold seems to be running rife in the schools in Scotland, despite all the extra precautions. So let's hope that that isn't also the case with covid.
    My niece has been to a summer scheme and got a cold which she’s given to her family. Hopefully children are genuinely less likely to spread COVID compared with colds that they seem to be brilliant at spreading.
    I'd say it is more that people are paying attention to their children's colds for the first time.

    Children who would normally have gone in to school with a snotty nose are being held back.
    Its like at the start of this pandemic if you were in a supermarket and somebody coughed then everyone would turn and look at the person who coughed.

    Previously you wouldn't have even noticed it.

    Its just observation bias that's all.
    but its delaying those kids education for no need (and social mixing with peers).
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    I always agreed with Tam Dalyell. Devolution was a self inflicted disaster.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    edited September 2020

    Did Bozo phone Trump and get put on hold?
    To be fair it is the best anthem in the world and yes I know a lot of people died under Soviet rule but its still a rip roaring anthem. Very soulful. A pitiful consequence of those Russians cheating with drugs is that the anthem no longer is played in the Olympics .
  • Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
  • Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    Here's a thought.

    If only we had all found Right Wing Comedian Michael Gove funny when he did "A Stab In The Dark", he might have stayed on telly, away from Parliament, and we'd be in a different mess to the one we're in.

    So basically, Brexit and the Cummings phenomenon are all the fault of TV audiences in 1992.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719

    Did Bozo phone Trump and get put on hold?
    To be fair it is the best anthem in the world and yes I know a lot of people died under Soviet rule but its still a rip roaring anthem. Very soulful. A pitiful consequence of those Russians cheating with drugs is that the anthem no longer is played in the Olympics .
    The French beat it.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    They didn’t finish the job granted, but the Tories have been in power since 2010 and have just made the situation worse. Both parties are to blame.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited September 2020
    justin124 said:

    Sanity on defence and foreign policy, not frightening the horses on the economy, balance on crime & justice and pledging not to loosen migration control whilst giving Boris enough rope to hang himself on Brexit.

    Labour has a 10-15 point lead and is back in office in less than 4 years.
    Do you think Labour would actually win by 10-15 points though? In my mind the best is a minority Government
    IF Labour continues at circa 40% across GB , I expect to see its support in Scotland to recover to circa 30% - at least matching its 2017 vote share there. Many SNP seats would then become vulnerable.
    If that were the case Labour would pick up about 20 SNP seats as well as gaining enough Tory seats to at least force a hung parliament and we would likely end up back in the EEA or with a softer Brexit FTA under PM Starmer
  • Labour up to 30% in Scotland? No way
  • HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Sanity on defence and foreign policy, not frightening the horses on the economy, balance on crime & justice and pledging not to loosen migration control whilst giving Boris enough rope to hang himself on Brexit.

    Labour has a 10-15 point lead and is back in office in less than 4 years.
    Do you think Labour would actually win by 10-15 points though? In my mind the best is a minority Government
    IF Labour continues at circa 40% across GB , I expect to see its support in Scotland to recover to circa 30% - at least matching its 2017 vote share there. Many SNP seats would then become vulnerable.
    If that were the case Labour would pick up about 20 SNP seats as well as gaining enough Tory seats to at least force a hung parliament and we would likely end up back in the EEA or with a softer Brexit FTA under PM Starmer
    Fantastic, I want that universe
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Sanity on defence and foreign policy, not frightening the horses on the economy, balance on crime & justice and pledging not to loosen migration control whilst giving Boris enough rope to hang himself on Brexit.

    Labour has a 10-15 point lead and is back in office in less than 4 years.
    Do you think Labour would actually win by 10-15 points though? In my mind the best is a minority Government
    IF Labour continues at circa 40% across GB , I expect to see its support in Scotland to recover to circa 30% - at least matching its 2017 vote share there. Many SNP seats would then become vulnerable.
    If that is were the case Labour would pick up about 20 SNP seats as well as gaining enough Tory seats to at least force a hung parliament and we would likely end up back in the EEA or with a softer Brexit FTA under PM Starmer
    We will have to see what happens , but I believe Starmer needs to become much more visible in Scotland. I would like to see Leonard step aside, but failing that Starmer needs to overshadow him.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    edited September 2020
    I oppose the leaving of the EU and also the break up of the UK. Not because I especially love either the EU or the UK but because creating smaller states just means individuals are confined more to that state . The massive thing the EU gave was freedom to the individual to mover around and effectively choose their country . I thought we were evolving away from tribalism in the last 50 years but its coming back with petty nationalistic (but shrewd) organisations like the SNP and UKIP
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Labour up to 30% in Scotland? No way

    Labour polled over 27% there under Corbyn in 2017. Why is 30% so unreasonable?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Isn't Scottish Labour’s problem that their grassroots are now non-existent? The SNP dominates the left (and centre, and right) of Scottish politics now.

    No recovery in the near future without something drastic happening.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    edited September 2020
    Foxy said:

    Did Bozo phone Trump and get put on hold?
    To be fair it is the best anthem in the world and yes I know a lot of people died under Soviet rule but its still a rip roaring anthem. Very soulful. A pitiful consequence of those Russians cheating with drugs is that the anthem no longer is played in the Olympics .
    The French beat it.
    I suppose it depends on what you like - i prefer soulful music , the French one is a little pompous imho - A bit like Bat of of Hell is superb but Bohemian Rhapsody is pompous
  • justin124 said:

    Labour up to 30% in Scotland? No way

    Labour polled over 27% there under Corbyn in 2017. Why is 30% so unreasonable?
    I take it back, you are right
  • Isn't Scottish Labour’s problem that their grassroots are now non-existent? The SNP dominates the left (and centre, and right) of Scottish politics now.

    No recovery in the near future without something drastic happening.

    To be fair in 2017 Corbyn got 27%, don't see much difference between now and then in terms of Scottish Labour
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The likely death of the Union is also to a large degree because not enough people in its largest member strongly back it.
  • My ideal outcome is EEA UK + federal UK
  • Foxy said:

    Did Bozo phone Trump and get put on hold?
    To be fair it is the best anthem in the world and yes I know a lot of people died under Soviet rule but its still a rip roaring anthem. Very soulful. A pitiful consequence of those Russians cheating with drugs is that the anthem no longer is played in the Olympics .
    The French beat it.
    The Welsh anthem beats the lot
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,707

    Alistair said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The ZeroCovid debate: can the disease be eliminated?
    Professor Devi Sridhar makes the case for why we should not tolerate any level of Covid-19"

    https://unherd.com/2020/08/the-zerocovid-debate-can-the-disease-be-eliminated/

    The problem with the elimination strategy is, of course, it involves an enormous amount of pain and effort, at the end of which the "successful" country concerned will then be so afraid of it breaking out again that it will resort to almost any extreme to stamp out fresh outbreaks.

    In other words, it would be exactly like New Zealand. One week:"It's gone, no more horrid masks, we can go back to normal, hooray!" The next week: "A case has been detected in London. Panic panic panic! Everyone in London must now spend six weeks locked in their home. No leaving under any circumstances except to buy food."

    Except, of course, at least New Zealand is so bloody remote that they wouldn't be getting new clusters seeded on a weekly basis by the constant to-ing and fro-ing of truck drivers, or migrants stowing away in the backs of their lorries.
    How long before these zealots have moved onto zero-influenza? We will be in and out of lockdown for the rest of our lives.
    You don't see the benefits of a zero cold strategy?
    In anecdata, from family and friends the cold seems to be running rife in the schools in Scotland, despite all the extra precautions. So let's hope that that isn't also the case with covid.
    My niece has been to a summer scheme and got a cold which she’s given to her family. Hopefully children are genuinely less likely to spread COVID compared with colds that they seem to be brilliant at spreading.
    I'd say it is more that people are paying attention to their children's colds for the first time.

    Children who would normally have gone in to school with a snotty nose are being held back.
    Its like at the start of this pandemic if you were in a supermarket and somebody coughed then everyone would turn and look at the person who coughed.

    Previously you wouldn't have even noticed it.

    Its just observation bias that's all.
    Well, it was just anecdata.

    But the SG felt that it was important to state that "it was common for other viral infections to circulate after a "prolonged break" away from school, so there may be something in the actual data.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53983392

    I accept that a lot of parents are being cautious, rightly so - but it's very possibly that their kids caught the cold in school in the first place.

    I'm not saying that means covid is rife in schools. I am saying that all the distancing and one-way systems and staggered start/finish times and repeated handwashing and in some cases pupils being told they have a specified timeslot when they are allowed to go to the toilet doesn't really appear to stop viral transmission in schools in the case of the cold at least, so maybe they ought to just go to school and sod all the fiddling round the edges.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    Good evening PB.

    Everything going swimmingly for HMG then? :D
  • justin124 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    I always agreed with Tam Dalyell. Devolution was a self inflicted disaster.
    What was the alternative though? Deny any Scottish government at all?
  • Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    Oh, if the Tories cared that much about the Union they should've repaired it, to be sure, but all the same Labour broke it and it will be poetic justice when the next Labour Prime Minister loses the Union and is dragged down in the process.

    All Boris Johnson has to do when confronted by the inevitable SNP landslide next May is invoke the "once in a generation" defence and stonewall the demands for the second referendum - which a subsequent Labour minority Government will then be forced to concede, and will lose.

    Blair wrecked the Union. If (or, more likely, when) his party has to deal with the consequences then it will serve them right.
  • My ideal outcome is EEA UK + federal UK

    Why?
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Speaking of Russian music, this wets my eye for some reason. What a pity patriotism can't be global.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tw3g88JtWA
  • Rishi to pay the wages of all newly hired under 25's for 6 months is another innovative scheme
  • Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
    Just like the last 10 years of failure, a bit rich to be blaming Labour for your many failures because you won't take credit for being rubbish
  • My ideal outcome is EEA UK + federal UK

    Why?
    Because it would be the best of a bad situation
  • My ideal outcome is EEA UK + federal UK

    Why?

    My ideal outcome is EEA UK + federal UK

    Simplified to (EEA+Federal)UK
  • justin124 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    I always agreed with Tam Dalyell. Devolution was a self inflicted disaster.
    What was the alternative though? Deny any Scottish government at all?
    He could have created an English Parliament with English devolution equivalent to the Scottish one. Then the PM would be PM of the UK and not primarily PM of England. But then someone else would have been English First Minister and he'd have lost much of his powers. So he didn't give away his toys to the English First Minister he kept them for himself.

    But him wanting the powers of First Minister of England isn't a reason to have asymmetric devolution.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited September 2020

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    Oh, if the Tories cared that much about the Union they should've repaired it, to be sure, but all the same Labour broke it and it will be poetic justice when the next Labour Prime Minister loses the Union and is dragged down in the process.

    All Boris Johnson has to do when confronted by the inevitable SNP landslide next May is invoke the "once in a generation" defence and stonewall the demands for the second referendum - which a subsequent Labour minority Government will then be forced to concede, and will lose.

    Blair wrecked the Union. If (or, more likely, when) his party has to deal with the consequences then it will serve them right.
    I think No would narrowly win again if Starmer was PM and we were back in the EEA and Scotland got devomax as is likely from Labour.

    The SNP's problem is their best hope of a Yes vote is PM Boris and a hard Brexit ideally on WTO Terms but Boris will refuse to allow indyref2 with a Tory majority of 80.

    They may get indyref2 with PM Starmer reliant on their support in a hung parliament but they are less likely to win it then
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Rishi to pay the wages of all newly hired under 25's for 6 months is another innovative scheme
    I think you mean: Rishi to make the taxpayer pay the wages of all newly hired under 25's for 6 months.
  • justin124 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    I always agreed with Tam Dalyell. Devolution was a self inflicted disaster.
    What was the alternative though? Deny any Scottish government at all?
    He could have created an English Parliament with English devolution equivalent to the Scottish one. Then the PM would be PM of the UK and not primarily PM of England. But then someone else would have been English First Minister and he'd have lost much of his powers. So he didn't give away his toys to the English First Minister he kept them for himself.

    But him wanting the powers of First Minister of England isn't a reason to have asymmetric devolution.
    Boris Johnson is able to do that now, get on with it
  • Rishi to pay the wages of all newly hired under 25's for 6 months is another innovative scheme
    I think you mean: Rishi to make the taxpayer pay the wages of all newly hired under 25's for 6 months.
    And do you object ?
  • Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
    Just like the last 10 years of failure, a bit rich to be blaming Labour for your many failures because you won't take credit for being rubbish
    The point of what I quoted is that some things once broken can not be fixed.

    Like Humpty Dumpty falling off the wall, Blair has broken the UK. I do not believe it is possible to be put back together again.
  • Rishi to pay the wages of all newly hired under 25's for 6 months is another innovative scheme
    When you write "Rishi" you mean "UK taxpayers"?

    (But not for many years yet...)
  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    Oh, if the Tories cared that much about the Union they should've repaired it, to be sure, but all the same Labour broke it and it will be poetic justice when the next Labour Prime Minister loses the Union and is dragged down in the process.

    All Boris Johnson has to do when confronted by the inevitable SNP landslide next May is invoke the "once in a generation" defence and stonewall the demands for the second referendum - which a subsequent Labour minority Government will then be forced to concede, and will lose.

    Blair wrecked the Union. If (or, more likely, when) his party has to deal with the consequences then it will serve them right.
    I think No would win again if Starmer was PM and we were back in the EEA, narrowly.

    The SNP's problem is there best hope of a Yes vote is PM Boris and a hard Brexit ideally on WTO Terms but Boris will refuse to allow indyref2.

    They may get indyref2 with PM Starmer but they are less likely to win it then
    I agree with you HYUFD
  • justin124 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    I always agreed with Tam Dalyell. Devolution was a self inflicted disaster.
    What was the alternative though? Deny any Scottish government at all?
    He could have created an English Parliament with English devolution equivalent to the Scottish one. Then the PM would be PM of the UK and not primarily PM of England. But then someone else would have been English First Minister and he'd have lost much of his powers. So he didn't give away his toys to the English First Minister he kept them for himself.

    But him wanting the powers of First Minister of England isn't a reason to have asymmetric devolution.
    Boris Johnson is able to do that now, get on with it
    He won't for the same reason Blair didn't.

    The UK is dead. RIP. People just need to get past the first stage of grief and get on with it.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    edited September 2020

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
    As a kid, I could always just about get the concept of a cat jumping over the moon but how on earth does a load of kings horses help put a big egg back together again?. The kings men will struggle but c'mon how do horses even begin to start ?
  • Rishi to pay the wages of all newly hired under 25's for 6 months is another innovative scheme
    When you write "Rishi" you mean "UK taxpayers"?

    (But not for many years yet...)
    Rishi is the architect and of course taxpayers will pay
  • justin124 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    I always agreed with Tam Dalyell. Devolution was a self inflicted disaster.
    What was the alternative though? Deny any Scottish government at all?
    He could have created an English Parliament with English devolution equivalent to the Scottish one. Then the PM would be PM of the UK and not primarily PM of England. But then someone else would have been English First Minister and he'd have lost much of his powers. So he didn't give away his toys to the English First Minister he kept them for himself.

    But him wanting the powers of First Minister of England isn't a reason to have asymmetric devolution.
    Boris Johnson is able to do that now, get on with it
    Have you any idea of the legislation required to make such a constitutional change

    It is not going to happen
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Isn't Scottish Labour’s problem that their grassroots are now non-existent? The SNP dominates the left (and centre, and right) of Scottish politics now.

    No recovery in the near future without something drastic happening.

    We are only 5 years on from 2015. The grass roots are still around. It was the tall poppies that we're scythed down.

    Now some of those tall poppies let their gardens go fallow as they felt they were so secure they didn't need to invest time and effort into the rank and file but SLab still has infrastructure
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    Oh, if the Tories cared that much about the Union they should've repaired it, to be sure, but all the same Labour broke it and it will be poetic justice when the next Labour Prime Minister loses the Union and is dragged down in the process.

    All Boris Johnson has to do when confronted by the inevitable SNP landslide next May is invoke the "once in a generation" defence and stonewall the demands for the second referendum - which a subsequent Labour minority Government will then be forced to concede, and will lose.

    Blair wrecked the Union. If (or, more likely, when) his party has to deal with the consequences then it will serve them right.
    I think No would narrowly win again if Starmer was PM and we were back in the EEA and Scotland got devomax as is likely from Labour.

    The SNP's problem is there best hope of a Yes vote is PM Boris and a hard Brexit ideally on WTO Terms but Boris will refuse to allow indyref2.

    They may get indyref2 with PM Starmer but they are less likely to win it then
    So essentially the SNP is stuffed either way: no referendum from Boris, so nothing to win; a referendum from Starmer, but enough concessions or persuasive circumstances to deprive Yes of a majority.

    Why are we worrying about Scottish independence, again?
  • justin124 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    I always agreed with Tam Dalyell. Devolution was a self inflicted disaster.
    What was the alternative though? Deny any Scottish government at all?
    He could have created an English Parliament with English devolution equivalent to the Scottish one. Then the PM would be PM of the UK and not primarily PM of England. But then someone else would have been English First Minister and he'd have lost much of his powers. So he didn't give away his toys to the English First Minister he kept them for himself.

    But him wanting the powers of First Minister of England isn't a reason to have asymmetric devolution.
    Boris Johnson is able to do that now, get on with it
    Have you any idea of the legislation required to make such a constitutional change

    It is not going to happen
    Cop. Out.
  • justin124 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    I always agreed with Tam Dalyell. Devolution was a self inflicted disaster.
    What was the alternative though? Deny any Scottish government at all?
    He could have created an English Parliament with English devolution equivalent to the Scottish one. Then the PM would be PM of the UK and not primarily PM of England. But then someone else would have been English First Minister and he'd have lost much of his powers. So he didn't give away his toys to the English First Minister he kept them for himself.

    But him wanting the powers of First Minister of England isn't a reason to have asymmetric devolution.
    I like that in principle but the problem has always been that the English First Minister would be so powerful as to overpower the UK PM.
  • justin124 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    I always agreed with Tam Dalyell. Devolution was a self inflicted disaster.
    What was the alternative though? Deny any Scottish government at all?
    He could have created an English Parliament with English devolution equivalent to the Scottish one. Then the PM would be PM of the UK and not primarily PM of England. But then someone else would have been English First Minister and he'd have lost much of his powers. So he didn't give away his toys to the English First Minister he kept them for himself.

    But him wanting the powers of First Minister of England isn't a reason to have asymmetric devolution.
    I like that in principle but the problem has always been that the English First Minister would be so powerful as to overpower the UK PM.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    That scheme really f*cks me, as someone who's attempting a career change at age 28. Why would any firm hire me at entry level when they could hire a 25 year old for free?

    Jeez.
  • Alistair said:

    Isn't Scottish Labour’s problem that their grassroots are now non-existent? The SNP dominates the left (and centre, and right) of Scottish politics now.

    No recovery in the near future without something drastic happening.

    We are only 5 years on from 2015. The grass roots are still around. It was the tall poppies that we're scythed down.

    Now some of those tall poppies let their gardens go fallow as they felt they were so secure they didn't need to invest time and effort into the rank and file but SLab still has infrastructure
    Many on here will not remember the time when labour were all powerful Scotland (I do) and thought they would always rule. Much like the SNP today who have commandeered their voters
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Isn't Scottish Labour’s problem that their grassroots are now non-existent? The SNP dominates the left (and centre, and right) of Scottish politics now.

    No recovery in the near future without something drastic happening.

    I recall that polls in Scotland in late April and early May 2017 had Labour struggling to reach 15% there. On 8th June the party managed over 27%. Some polls currently have Labour on circa 20% for Westminster elections - but I suspect that the SNP vote remains pretty flakey - particularly in the context of Labour performing strongly across GB.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    In 2017 SLab picked up left wing pro indy voters.

    In 2019 they lost them to the SNP again.

    How exactly does a strong pro-Union stance win them back. And if you aren't winning the left wing indy vote back where are you getting those votes to go to 30%?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    justin124 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    I always agreed with Tam Dalyell. Devolution was a self inflicted disaster.
    What was the alternative though? Deny any Scottish government at all?
    He could have created an English Parliament with English devolution equivalent to the Scottish one. Then the PM would be PM of the UK and not primarily PM of England. But then someone else would have been English First Minister and he'd have lost much of his powers. So he didn't give away his toys to the English First Minister he kept them for himself.

    But him wanting the powers of First Minister of England isn't a reason to have asymmetric devolution.
    Boris Johnson is able to do that now, get on with it
    Have you any idea of the legislation required to make such a constitutional change

    It is not going to happen
    And so bye bye Scotland.

    Even if the Tories hold off the second independence referendum until Labour gets back in, AND Labour bribes the Scottish electorate to stay with Devomax, AND the bribe succeeds, then it would leave 59 Scottish MPs in the House of Commons with almost nothing left to do with their time except to meddle in English legislation. That's not sustainable.

    This problem needs to be resolved. So, sorry, but if England doesn't get parity of esteem with Scotland then the sooner Scotland is gone the better.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,412

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
    As a kid, I could always just about get the concept of a cat jumping over the moon but how on earth does a load of kings horses help put a big egg back together again?. The kings men will struggle but c'mon how do horses even begin to start ?
    Wasn't Humpty Dumpty a cannon?
    I believe the egg was a Victorian illustrator's imagination.
  • I definitely buy the idea of Labour becoming the second party in Scotland
  • That scheme really f*cks me, as someone who's attempting a career change at age 28. Why would any firm hire me at entry level when they could hire a 25 year old for free?

    Jeez.

    I am in a nosey mood tonight so do you mind me asking what you are wanting to do?
  • That scheme really f*cks me, as someone who's attempting a career change at age 28. Why would any firm hire me at entry level when they could hire a 25 year old for free?

    Jeez.

    For 6 months
  • MaxPB said:

    We shouldn't either and neither should Europe. Refloating the western economies will save more lives in the developing world than a vaccine.
    We should do whatever most effectively saves lives in the UK, resuscitates the UK economy most quickly (and sustainably) and most effectively advances UK interests.

    That may involve distributing the vaccine globally but if so it should be done for those reasons (and scientific reasons) and not out of pan-global internationalist ideology.
  • If you are between 25 and 30 you are utterly shafted by the under 25 policy
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    justin124 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    I always agreed with Tam Dalyell. Devolution was a self inflicted disaster.
    What was the alternative though? Deny any Scottish government at all?
    He could have created an English Parliament with English devolution equivalent to the Scottish one. Then the PM would be PM of the UK and not primarily PM of England. But then someone else would have been English First Minister and he'd have lost much of his powers. So he didn't give away his toys to the English First Minister he kept them for himself.

    But him wanting the powers of First Minister of England isn't a reason to have asymmetric devolution.
    I like that in principle but the problem has always been that the English First Minister would be so powerful as to overpower the UK PM.
    So what?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,605
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Sanity on defence and foreign policy, not frightening the horses on the economy, balance on crime & justice and pledging not to loosen migration control whilst giving Boris enough rope to hang himself on Brexit.

    Labour has a 10-15 point lead and is back in office in less than 4 years.
    Do you think Labour would actually win by 10-15 points though? In my mind the best is a minority Government
    IF Labour continues at circa 40% across GB , I expect to see its support in Scotland to recover to circa 30% - at least matching its 2017 vote share there. Many SNP seats would then become vulnerable.
    If that were the case Labour would pick up about 20 SNP seats as well as gaining enough Tory seats to at least force a hung parliament and we would likely end up back in the EEA or with a softer Brexit FTA under PM Starmer
    We are talking 2024. Starmer is not going to go into bat in that election talking about any form of ongoing relationship with the EU. Not unless he wants to plummet ten points....
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited September 2020

    That scheme really f*cks me, as someone who's attempting a career change at age 28. Why would any firm hire me at entry level when they could hire a 25 year old for free?

    Jeez.

    I am in a nosey mood tonight so do you mind me asking what you are wanting to do?
    I previously worked as a project engineer in various industries (oil & gas, construction, renewable energy, biopharmaceuticals) but for the past year I've been at university working towards a career in law - hopefully as a solicitor.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Alistair said:

    In 2017 SLab picked up left wing pro indy voters.

    In 2019 they lost them to the SNP again.

    How exactly does a strong pro-Union stance win them back. And if you aren't winning the left wing indy vote back where are you getting those votes to go to 30%?

    I suspect that had Labour been better placed across GB in 2019 many of the gains made in 2017 would have been retained. In reality,however, every indicator pointed to a clear Tory win.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
    dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
    As a kid, I could always just about get the concept of a cat jumping over the moon but how on earth does a load of kings horses help put a big egg back together again?. The kings men will struggle but c'mon how do horses even begin to start ?
    Wasn't Humpty Dumpty a cannon?
    I believe the egg was a Victorian illustrator's imagination.
    To be fair, I think the Kings horses wouldn't be much use in cannon repair either.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited September 2020
    Alistair said:

    In 2017 SLab picked up left wing pro indy voters.

    In 2019 they lost them to the SNP again.

    How exactly does a strong pro-Union stance win them back. And if you aren't winning the left wing indy vote back where are you getting those votes to go to 30%?

    They lost them as Corbyn Labour was clearly not the strongest alternative to the Boris Tories in Scotland unlike the SNP in 2019, in 2024 however Starmer Labour would be a much more effective anti Tory force.

    Starmer also polls far better in Scotland than Corbyn ever did
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited September 2020

    That scheme really f*cks me, as someone who's attempting a career change at age 28. Why would any firm hire me at entry level when they could hire a 25 year old for free?

    Jeez.

    For 6 months
    That's still a hell of an incentive not to hire me though! Oh well. Will have to make sure the CV is tip-top.
  • I definitely buy the idea of Labour becoming the second party in Scotland

    You do not understand Scottish politics if you think that.

    Labour was the party of Scotland for ever until one day the SNP came and stole their clothes and there is no way back to relevance
  • That scheme really f*cks me, as someone who's attempting a career change at age 28. Why would any firm hire me at entry level when they could hire a 25 year old for free?

    Jeez.

    I am in a nosey mood tonight so do you mind me asking what you are wanting to do?
    I previously worked as a project engineer in various industries (oil & gas, construction, renewable energy, biopharmaceuticals) but for the past year I've been at university working towards a career in law - hopefully as a solicitor.
    Thanks for that - Good luck then!

    Seriously this under 25 scheme is an expensive way of discriminating by age and carrying on identity politics.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited September 2020

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    Sanity on defence and foreign policy, not frightening the horses on the economy, balance on crime & justice and pledging not to loosen migration control whilst giving Boris enough rope to hang himself on Brexit.

    Labour has a 10-15 point lead and is back in office in less than 4 years.
    Do you think Labour would actually win by 10-15 points though? In my mind the best is a minority Government
    IF Labour continues at circa 40% across GB , I expect to see its support in Scotland to recover to circa 30% - at least matching its 2017 vote share there. Many SNP seats would then become vulnerable.
    If that were the case Labour would pick up about 20 SNP seats as well as gaining enough Tory seats to at least force a hung parliament and we would likely end up back in the EEA or with a softer Brexit FTA under PM Starmer
    We are talking 2024. Starmer is not going to go into bat in that election talking about any form of ongoing relationship with the EU. Not unless he wants to plummet ten points....
    If we are on WTO terms Brexit in 2024 and the economy is in deep recession and the government very unpopular of course he will be, if WTO terms Brexit or any FTA agreed with the EU is going brilliantly then the Tories will likely win again anyway.

  • I definitely buy the idea of Labour becoming the second party in Scotland

    You do not understand Scottish politics if you think that.

    Labour was the party of Scotland for ever until one day the SNP came and stole their clothes and there is no way back to relevance
    There is definitely a way to being the second largest party in Scotland
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Someone was saying earlier how dangerous a profession policing was in the US...

    https://twitter.com/COVID19Tracking/status/1300898747233177602
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    I definitely buy the idea of Labour becoming the second party in Scotland

    You do not understand Scottish politics if you think that.

    Labour was the party of Scotland for ever until one day the SNP came and stole their clothes and there is no way back to relevance
    In vote share Labour was barely 1% behind the Tories in Scotland in 2017.
  • dixiedean said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
    As a kid, I could always just about get the concept of a cat jumping over the moon but how on earth does a load of kings horses help put a big egg back together again?. The kings men will struggle but c'mon how do horses even begin to start ?
    Wasn't Humpty Dumpty a cannon?
    I believe the egg was a Victorian illustrator's imagination.
    I bow to your expert knowledge but would argue that the kings horses (even if they were called Red Rum, Cigar ,Shergar and Black Beauty ) would find putting a canon back together just as hard .
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137
    edited September 2020
    O/T Excellent new adaptation of All Creatures Great and Small on Channel 5 this evening with Samuel West for anyone who remembers the 1980s Robert Hardy and Christopher Timothy version, continues next week at 9pm
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
    Nigelb said:

    Someone was saying earlier how dangerous a profession policing was in the US...

    https://twitter.com/COVID19Tracking/status/1300898747233177602

    On that subject, from the "Leicester Hotspot":

    https://twitter.com/MartinSamuelSCE/status/1300873324118126595?s=09
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Toms said:

    Speaking of Russian music, this wets my eye for some reason. What a pity patriotism can't be global.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tw3g88JtWA

    His eyebrows are too distracting to focus on the music...
  • justin124 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    I always agreed with Tam Dalyell. Devolution was a self inflicted disaster.
    What was the alternative though? Deny any Scottish government at all?
    He could have created an English Parliament with English devolution equivalent to the Scottish one. Then the PM would be PM of the UK and not primarily PM of England. But then someone else would have been English First Minister and he'd have lost much of his powers. So he didn't give away his toys to the English First Minister he kept them for himself.

    But him wanting the powers of First Minister of England isn't a reason to have asymmetric devolution.
    Boris Johnson is able to do that now, get on with it
    Have you any idea of the legislation required to make such a constitutional change

    It is not going to happen
    And so bye bye Scotland.

    Even if the Tories hold off the second independence referendum until Labour gets back in, AND Labour bribes the Scottish electorate to stay with Devomax, AND the bribe succeeds, then it would leave 59 Scottish MPs in the House of Commons with almost nothing left to do with their time except to meddle in English legislation. That's not sustainable.

    This problem needs to be resolved. So, sorry, but if England doesn't get parity of esteem with Scotland then the sooner Scotland is gone the better.
    That's effectively what the SNP did when they blocked Cameron's attempt to liberalise the fox hunting ban in 2015. It was an effort to piss off the English the other way.

    Of course, on that issue - on which public opinion had moved rapidly in the last ten years, even in England - they got away with it but it wouldn't end there.

    Wedge Wedge Wedge. It's the SNP leitmotif.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
    As a kid, I could always just about get the concept of a cat jumping over the moon but how on earth does a load of kings horses help put a big egg back together again?. The kings men will struggle but c'mon how do horses even begin to start ?
    Humpty Dumpty was a particularly big cannon that the Royalists had in the English Civil War.

    It fell off the wall when the Parliamentarians attacked - the King's men and horses tried to drag it back into position but to no avail...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Biden is almost guaranteed to take Arizona based on the polling.
  • Biden is almost guaranteed to take Arizona based on the polling.
    Let's not risk it. Get Biden to Minnesota now!!!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Biden is almost guaranteed to take Arizona based on the polling.
    Trump needs to hit loads of places where Biden is ahead to win.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    That scheme really f*cks me, as someone who's attempting a career change at age 28. Why would any firm hire me at entry level when they could hire a 25 year old for free?

    Jeez.

    Now do you see the problem with cleverly designed state run schemes replacing the free market?

    Vote Tory in future...
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,707
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    In 2017 SLab picked up left wing pro indy voters.

    In 2019 they lost them to the SNP again.

    How exactly does a strong pro-Union stance win them back. And if you aren't winning the left wing indy vote back where are you getting those votes to go to 30%?

    They lost them as Corbyn Labour was clearly not the strongest alternative to the Boris Tories in Scotland unlike the SNP in 2019, in 2024 however Starmer Labour would be a much more effective anti Tory force.

    Starmer also polls far better in Scotland than Corbyn ever did
    So why is SLab polling so badly in Scotland just now?

    Their real problem is the SNP are the pro-indy vote and the SCon are the pro-Union vote and SLab are trying to go after a dwindling pro-Union vote that the Conservatives are much better at picking up. They are the third party squeezed out of a two-sided issue that is the only game in town in Scottish politics at present.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Charles said:

    That scheme really f*cks me, as someone who's attempting a career change at age 28. Why would any firm hire me at entry level when they could hire a 25 year old for free?

    Jeez.

    Now do you see the problem with cleverly designed state run schemes replacing the free market?

    Vote Tory in future...
    But the Tories are in power?
  • Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well some of us did warn that Brexit may well lead to the breakup of the Union but we were denounced as engaging in Project Fear.

    Brexiteers like Gove are absolute tossers, they wanted to destroy the EU but may well end up destroying the Union, I hope he gets a paper cut on his todger every day for the rest of his life.
    I'm sure many of us will enjoy blaming Johnson, Gove et al for their recklessness when the Union dies, but it was already on its way to the grave regardless. All they may have done is hurry it along a bit, that's all.
    Blair killed the Union.

    Asymmetric devolution left the constitution fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable.

    Tam Dalyell warned what would happen. He was right.
    The Tories killed the Union
    There's plenty of blame to go around, but I'm afraid that New Labour is top of the list in this particular instance. They created devolution for party political ends, and made a complete dog's breakfast of it into the bargain.
    The Tories had 10 years to unbreak it and they have not, their problem now
    All the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again.
    As a kid, I could always just about get the concept of a cat jumping over the moon but how on earth does a load of kings horses help put a big egg back together again?. The kings men will struggle but c'mon how do horses even begin to start ?
    Humpty Dumpty was a particularly big cannon that the Royalists had in the English Civil War.

    It fell off the wall when the Parliamentarians attacked - the King's men and horses tried to drag it back into position but to no avail...
    then the song should surely say that they couldn't put Humpty back again (and not together again!).
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Dr. Luntz occasionally knows a thing or two. He famously assisted Boris in his very first election victory - the presidency of the Oxford Union.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,137

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    In 2017 SLab picked up left wing pro indy voters.

    In 2019 they lost them to the SNP again.

    How exactly does a strong pro-Union stance win them back. And if you aren't winning the left wing indy vote back where are you getting those votes to go to 30%?

    They lost them as Corbyn Labour was clearly not the strongest alternative to the Boris Tories in Scotland unlike the SNP in 2019, in 2024 however Starmer Labour would be a much more effective anti Tory force.

    Starmer also polls far better in Scotland than Corbyn ever did
    So why is SLab polling so badly in Scotland just now?

    Their real problem is the SNP are the pro-indy vote and the SCon are the pro-Union vote and SLab are trying to go after a dwindling pro-Union vote that the Conservatives are much better at picking up. They are the third party squeezed out of a two-sided issue that is the only game in town in Scottish politics at present.
    Labour got 27% at GE17, general elections are a different beast and if Labour looks like it might win that is especially the case
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,412
    Charles said:

    That scheme really f*cks me, as someone who's attempting a career change at age 28. Why would any firm hire me at entry level when they could hire a 25 year old for free?

    Jeez.

    Now do you see the problem with cleverly designed state run schemes replacing the free market?

    Vote Tory in future...
    Eh? A Tory government brings in a scheme which discriminates against him.
    So he should therefore vote Tory??
  • HYUFD said:

    O/T Excellent new adaptation of All Creatures Great and Small on Channel 5 this evening with Samuel West for anyone who remembers the 1980s Robert Hardy and Christopher Timothy version, continues next week at 9pm

    Agreed. This was first rate
This discussion has been closed.