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  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Polling in the DM, high support for getting rid of license fee criminalisation.

    And so we will get to the inevitable privatisation of the BBC, as was the point in this entire story

    The BBC licence fee is a poll tax and in these days is just out of date and wrong

    Time to make the BBC compete on a level playing field with all the media
    Nope. BBC is different. Tories have ideological objections and can never forgive a non privately owned, non commercial corporation being successful. Goes against their religion. They won’t be happy until it’s gone and the UK goes all Fox News.
    Not at all.

    11,000 plus pensioners pay just for Lineker and it cannot justify that taxpayers keep it afloat on a public subsidy

    Furthermore two thirds of voters want the fee scrapped so not just 'tories'
    Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. Ask people if they want income tax scrapped and see what they say.

    You have an ideological dislike of the BBC, despite it correcting a clear market failure.
    What "clear market failure" in 2020 does it address?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Trafalgar have a poll showing Trump up 47-45 in Michigan.

    To be more accurate, Trump leads 46.6-45.2. Before the Democrat convention, he led 46.9-44.2 and after the Democrat convention, he led 46.5-45.6 so tiny changes with both Trump and Biden votes solid within the margin of error.

    As I suspected, the conventions have made little or no difference (and I suspect the debate won't either). The US electorate is highly polarised and views are entrenched.

    Only 3.6% are still undecided which is extraordinary so far from the election.I have no idea how representative the Trafalgar sampling is because I don't know enough about Michigan.

    Trafalgar adjusts for shy Trump voters. How accurate that will be is the big question.
    It was accurate in 2016, though they have had Biden up in Michigan earlier in the summer.
    On the subject of Trafalgar, didn't they overstate Trump in every state? It led to them giving him the lead in (for example) Florida, but their forecast of a four point lead was a lot bigger than the actual 1.3% lead.
    They lean slightly Republican but they did forecast correctly Trump would win Michigan and Pennsylvania in 2016 unlike every other pollster
  • So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
  • So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Polling in the DM, high support for getting rid of license fee criminalisation.

    And so we will get to the inevitable privatisation of the BBC, as was the point in this entire story

    The BBC licence fee is a poll tax and in these days is just out of date and wrong

    Time to make the BBC compete on a level playing field with all the media
    Nope. BBC is different. Tories have ideological objections and can never forgive a non privately owned, non commercial corporation being successful. Goes against their religion. They won’t be happy until it’s gone and the UK goes all Fox News.
    Not at all.

    11,000 plus pensioners pay just for Lineker and it cannot justify that taxpayers keep it afloat on a public subsidy

    Furthermore two thirds of voters want the fee scrapped so not just 'tories'
    Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. Ask people if they want income tax scrapped and see what they say.

    You have an ideological dislike of the BBC, despite it correcting a clear market failure.
    I have nothing of the sort but the licence fee is over and it seems two thirds of the public agree
    You’ll be telling us you don’t subscribe to the Daily mail next. The right look at America with envious eyes and dream of Fox News UK. They may well have their way. God help us all.
    My wife subscribes to mail plus and I subscribe to Sky and Sky sports, BT sports, Amazon prime, Disney, and have just cancelled my Netflix sub

    You are obsessed with Fox News which is a channel I never watch nor would I anymore than RT
    You are obsessed with the licence fee.
    Along with 65% of the public and 77% of over 75's

    It has to go
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Polling in the DM, high support for getting rid of license fee criminalisation.

    And so we will get to the inevitable privatisation of the BBC, as was the point in this entire story

    The BBC licence fee is a poll tax and in these days is just out of date and wrong

    Time to make the BBC compete on a level playing field with all the media
    Nope. BBC is different. Tories have ideological objections and can never forgive a non privately owned, non commercial corporation being successful. Goes against their religion. They won’t be happy until it’s gone and the UK goes all Fox News.
    Not at all.

    11,000 plus pensioners pay just for Lineker and it cannot justify that taxpayers keep it afloat on a public subsidy

    Furthermore two thirds of voters want the fee scrapped so not just 'tories'
    Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. Ask people if they want income tax scrapped and see what they say.

    You have an ideological dislike of the BBC, despite it correcting a clear market failure.
    What "clear market failure" in 2020 does it address?
    Look at broadcasting in the US and Europe or alternative print news media in the UK. Generally total crap.
  • So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    I watched films of my choice when I subscribed to it but did not watch 'woke' ones !!!
  • The BBC would need to implement a system where you can't watch TV/the BBC without one and I see no way of doing that - they don't have a viewing card like Sky does (did?)

    Yes, they had the option with digital TV of ensuring they could and deliberately sabotaged the system to ensure they couldn't. Oops.

    POBBCWAS.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Polling in the DM, high support for getting rid of license fee criminalisation.

    And so we will get to the inevitable privatisation of the BBC, as was the point in this entire story

    The BBC licence fee is a poll tax and in these days is just out of date and wrong

    Time to make the BBC compete on a level playing field with all the media
    Nope. BBC is different. Tories have ideological objections and can never forgive a non privately owned, non commercial corporation being successful. Goes against their religion. They won’t be happy until it’s gone and the UK goes all Fox News.
    Not at all.

    11,000 plus pensioners pay just for Lineker and it cannot justify that taxpayers keep it afloat on a public subsidy

    Furthermore two thirds of voters want the fee scrapped so not just 'tories'
    Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. Ask people if they want income tax scrapped and see what they say.

    You have an ideological dislike of the BBC, despite it correcting a clear market failure.
    I have nothing of the sort but the licence fee is over and it seems two thirds of the public agree
    You’ll be telling us you don’t subscribe to the Daily mail next. The right look at America with envious eyes and dream of Fox News UK. They may well have their way. God help us all.
    My wife subscribes to mail plus and I subscribe to Sky and Sky sports, BT sports, Amazon prime, Disney, and have just cancelled my Netflix sub

    You are obsessed with Fox News which is a channel I never watch nor would I anymore than RT
    You are obsessed with the licence fee.
    Along with 65% of the public and 77% of over 75's

    It has to go
    No it doesn’t. People have never liked paying taxes and never will.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited August 2020
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Polling in the DM, high support for getting rid of license fee criminalisation.

    And so we will get to the inevitable privatisation of the BBC, as was the point in this entire story

    The BBC licence fee is a poll tax and in these days is just out of date and wrong

    Time to make the BBC compete on a level playing field with all the media
    Nope. BBC is different. Tories have ideological objections and can never forgive a non privately owned, non commercial corporation being successful. Goes against their religion. They won’t be happy until it’s gone and the UK goes all Fox News.
    Not at all.

    11,000 plus pensioners pay just for Lineker and it cannot justify that taxpayers keep it afloat on a public subsidy

    Furthermore two thirds of voters want the fee scrapped so not just 'tories'
    Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. Ask people if they want income tax scrapped and see what they say.

    You have an ideological dislike of the BBC, despite it correcting a clear market failure.
    I have nothing of the sort but the licence fee is over and it seems two thirds of the public agree
    You’ll be telling us you don’t subscribe to the Daily mail next. The right look at America with envious eyes and dream of Fox News UK. They may well have their way. God help us all.
    My wife subscribes to mail plus and I subscribe to Sky and Sky sports, BT sports, Amazon prime, Disney, and have just cancelled my Netflix sub

    You are obsessed with Fox News which is a channel I never watch nor would I anymore than RT
    You are obsessed with the licence fee.
    Along with 65% of the public and 77% of over 75's

    It has to go
    No it doesn’t. People have never liked paying taxes and never will.
    It will not survive (the fee not the BBC)
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Polling in the DM, high support for getting rid of license fee criminalisation.

    And so we will get to the inevitable privatisation of the BBC, as was the point in this entire story

    The BBC licence fee is a poll tax and in these days is just out of date and wrong

    Time to make the BBC compete on a level playing field with all the media
    Nope. BBC is different. Tories have ideological objections and can never forgive a non privately owned, non commercial corporation being successful. Goes against their religion. They won’t be happy until it’s gone and the UK goes all Fox News.
    Not at all.

    11,000 plus pensioners pay just for Lineker and it cannot justify that taxpayers keep it afloat on a public subsidy

    Furthermore two thirds of voters want the fee scrapped so not just 'tories'
    Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. Ask people if they want income tax scrapped and see what they say.

    You have an ideological dislike of the BBC, despite it correcting a clear market failure.
    I have nothing of the sort but the licence fee is over and it seems two thirds of the public agree
    You’ll be telling us you don’t subscribe to the Daily mail next. The right look at America with envious eyes and dream of Fox News UK. They may well have their way. God help us all.
    My wife subscribes to mail plus and I subscribe to Sky and Sky sports, BT sports, Amazon prime, Disney, and have just cancelled my Netflix sub

    You are obsessed with Fox News which is a channel I never watch nor would I anymore than RT
    You are obsessed with the licence fee.
    Along with 65% of the public and 77% of over 75's

    It has to go
    No it doesn’t. People have never liked paying taxes and never will.
    It will not survive
    Ideological, as I said. Fox News UK here we come.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Polling in the DM, high support for getting rid of license fee criminalisation.

    And so we will get to the inevitable privatisation of the BBC, as was the point in this entire story

    The BBC licence fee is a poll tax and in these days is just out of date and wrong

    Time to make the BBC compete on a level playing field with all the media
    Nope. BBC is different. Tories have ideological objections and can never forgive a non privately owned, non commercial corporation being successful. Goes against their religion. They won’t be happy until it’s gone and the UK goes all Fox News.
    Not at all.

    11,000 plus pensioners pay just for Lineker and it cannot justify that taxpayers keep it afloat on a public subsidy

    Furthermore two thirds of voters want the fee scrapped so not just 'tories'
    Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. Ask people if they want income tax scrapped and see what they say.

    You have an ideological dislike of the BBC, despite it correcting a clear market failure.
    I have nothing of the sort but the licence fee is over and it seems two thirds of the public agree
    You’ll be telling us you don’t subscribe to the Daily mail next. The right look at America with envious eyes and dream of Fox News UK. They may well have their way. God help us all.
    My wife subscribes to mail plus and I subscribe to Sky and Sky sports, BT sports, Amazon prime, Disney, and have just cancelled my Netflix sub

    You are obsessed with Fox News which is a channel I never watch nor would I anymore than RT
    You are obsessed with the licence fee.
    Along with 65% of the public and 77% of over 75's

    It has to go
    No it doesn’t. People have never liked paying taxes and never will.
    It will not survive
    Ideological, as I said. Fox News UK here we come.
    I will not be watching Fox news.

    There are and will be myriads of alternative sources of news
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Right now they're desperately defending themselves over a movie called Cuties, that portrays pubescent girls in an overtly sexual manner.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780



    The BBC licence fee is a poll tax and in these days is just out of date and wrong

    Yes in these days a poll tax is just out of date and wrong. Just fund it from some other less inequitable form of taxation.

    That said it's not funded from a poll tax. The licence fee tax is even worse than a poll tax including THE poll tax. A single adult household pays the same as a household with several working adults. And unlike THE poll tax, which did have reductions for people on low incomes, those on low incomes pay the full amount below the age of 75.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited August 2020

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Polling in the DM, high support for getting rid of license fee criminalisation.

    And so we will get to the inevitable privatisation of the BBC, as was the point in this entire story

    The BBC licence fee is a poll tax and in these days is just out of date and wrong

    Time to make the BBC compete on a level playing field with all the media
    Nope. BBC is different. Tories have ideological objections and can never forgive a non privately owned, non commercial corporation being successful. Goes against their religion. They won’t be happy until it’s gone and the UK goes all Fox News.
    Not at all.

    11,000 plus pensioners pay just for Lineker and it cannot justify that taxpayers keep it afloat on a public subsidy

    Furthermore two thirds of voters want the fee scrapped so not just 'tories'
    Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. Ask people if they want income tax scrapped and see what they say.

    You have an ideological dislike of the BBC, despite it correcting a clear market failure.
    I have nothing of the sort but the licence fee is over and it seems two thirds of the public agree
    You’ll be telling us you don’t subscribe to the Daily mail next. The right look at America with envious eyes and dream of Fox News UK. They may well have their way. God help us all.
    My wife subscribes to mail plus and I subscribe to Sky and Sky sports, BT sports, Amazon prime, Disney, and have just cancelled my Netflix sub

    You are obsessed with Fox News which is a channel I never watch nor would I anymore than RT
    You are obsessed with the licence fee.
    Along with 65% of the public and 77% of over 75's

    It has to go
    I would gladly pay an annual subscription to the BBC for BBC4 and BBC1 and Radio 2, 3 and 4 alone but yes I think the BBC license fee has had its day or if it is to continue let it be shared for cultural and current affairs programmes amongst all broadcasters.

    The BBC should be allowed adverts in return
  • https://twitter.com/NHSMillion/status/1299449181241831424

    I had a nurse do my flu jab just last year

    I don't think I have ever had a doctor stick a needle in me, except perhaps as a young child decades ago.
    I’ve had a few, mostly anaesthetists.

    Andy_JS said:

    If we decriminalise paying the license fee, sorry to state the obvious but will people then just not bother to pay it, knowing nothing will happen

    Is it a crime NOT to pay a SKY subscription?
    No you miss my point, if you don't pay your Sky subscription you can't watch Sky, Sky cut the service off.

    The BBC have no way of doing that, from what I understand, so if you decriminalise the fee, nothing can happen if you don't pay. You can watch TV forever with no payment.

    I support decriminalisation BTW, I just can see the argument that it reduces their income.
    The BBC need to think of a way of doing it. People should be able to watch other channels without paying the licence fee.
    I completely agree - but my point was that right now they don't have a way to stop it, I don't think.

    If you plug an aerial into your TV, the BBC cannot stop you from watching BBC1. I don't see how they can ever stop it unless you have to ring them up to activate it, or some other such method.
    I seem to remember that that was down to lobbying by the BBC to prevent the option being built into the specification for digital TV in this country. It would have been simple enough to do to make sure you could not get BBC TV without a license, but they were worried that it would lead to people deciding to opt out.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Polling in the DM, high support for getting rid of license fee criminalisation.

    And so we will get to the inevitable privatisation of the BBC, as was the point in this entire story

    The BBC licence fee is a poll tax and in these days is just out of date and wrong

    Time to make the BBC compete on a level playing field with all the media
    Nope. BBC is different. Tories have ideological objections and can never forgive a non privately owned, non commercial corporation being successful. Goes against their religion. They won’t be happy until it’s gone and the UK goes all Fox News.
    Not at all.

    11,000 plus pensioners pay just for Lineker and it cannot justify that taxpayers keep it afloat on a public subsidy

    Furthermore two thirds of voters want the fee scrapped so not just 'tories'
    Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. Ask people if they want income tax scrapped and see what they say.

    You have an ideological dislike of the BBC, despite it correcting a clear market failure.
    I have nothing of the sort but the licence fee is over and it seems two thirds of the public agree
    You’ll be telling us you don’t subscribe to the Daily mail next. The right look at America with envious eyes and dream of Fox News UK. They may well have their way. God help us all.
    My wife subscribes to mail plus and I subscribe to Sky and Sky sports, BT sports, Amazon prime, Disney, and have just cancelled my Netflix sub

    You are obsessed with Fox News which is a channel I never watch nor would I anymore than RT
    You are obsessed with the licence fee.
    Along with 65% of the public and 77% of over 75's

    It has to go
    No it doesn’t. People have never liked paying taxes and never will.
    It will not survive
    Ideological, as I said. Fox News UK here we come.
    I will not be watching Fox news.

    There are and will be myriads of alternative sources of news
    The customer chooses the facts they prefer. We are doomed to the One Britain News Network.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited August 2020
    I bet these “over 75s” are going to be shocked when the BBC, ITV, and Channel 4 change beyond all recognition. I bet they simply just want to stop paying but continue to receive the exact same service.

    Bit like Brexit really. Funny that.
  • Sandpit said:

    So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Right now they're desperately defending themselves over a movie called Cuties, that portrays pubescent girls in an overtly sexual manner.
    So they have the right to do that right?
  • I think it's repellent from what I've seen BTW
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    The right can’t attack the BBC, so they attack the licence fee. It’s pretty transparent. It’s outdated they cry, despite pretty much everyone still owning a TV. It’s not subtle. Not subtle at all.
  • So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    If you don’t like it you can cancel your subscription. That’s a bit harder with the BBC...
  • So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    I watched films of my choice when I subscribed to it but did not watch 'woke' ones !!!
    Can you not do that with other things, why does the BBC only get complained about for being woke?

    If private companies want to be woke, surely that is up to them, save with whatever else, no?
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Polling in the DM, high support for getting rid of license fee criminalisation.

    And so we will get to the inevitable privatisation of the BBC, as was the point in this entire story

    The BBC licence fee is a poll tax and in these days is just out of date and wrong

    Time to make the BBC compete on a level playing field with all the media
    Nope. BBC is different. Tories have ideological objections and can never forgive a non privately owned, non commercial corporation being successful. Goes against their religion. They won’t be happy until it’s gone and the UK goes all Fox News.
    Not at all.

    11,000 plus pensioners pay just for Lineker and it cannot justify that taxpayers keep it afloat on a public subsidy

    Furthermore two thirds of voters want the fee scrapped so not just 'tories'
    Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. Ask people if they want income tax scrapped and see what they say.

    You have an ideological dislike of the BBC, despite it correcting a clear market failure.
    I have nothing of the sort but the licence fee is over and it seems two thirds of the public agree
    You’ll be telling us you don’t subscribe to the Daily mail next. The right look at America with envious eyes and dream of Fox News UK. They may well have their way. God help us all.
    My wife subscribes to mail plus and I subscribe to Sky and Sky sports, BT sports, Amazon prime, Disney, and have just cancelled my Netflix sub

    You are obsessed with Fox News which is a channel I never watch nor would I anymore than RT
    You are obsessed with the licence fee.
    Along with 65% of the public and 77% of over 75's

    It has to go
    No it doesn’t. People have never liked paying taxes and never will.
    It will not survive
    Ideological, as I said. Fox News UK here we come.
    I will not be watching Fox news.

    There are and will be myriads of alternative sources of news
    The customer chooses the facts they prefer. We are doomed to the One Britain News Network.
    It is not ideal, but it’s been like that for years now.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Polling in the DM, high support for getting rid of license fee criminalisation.

    And so we will get to the inevitable privatisation of the BBC, as was the point in this entire story

    The BBC licence fee is a poll tax and in these days is just out of date and wrong

    Time to make the BBC compete on a level playing field with all the media
    Nope. BBC is different. Tories have ideological objections and can never forgive a non privately owned, non commercial corporation being successful. Goes against their religion. They won’t be happy until it’s gone and the UK goes all Fox News.
    Not at all.

    11,000 plus pensioners pay just for Lineker and it cannot justify that taxpayers keep it afloat on a public subsidy

    Furthermore two thirds of voters want the fee scrapped so not just 'tories'
    Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. Ask people if they want income tax scrapped and see what they say.

    You have an ideological dislike of the BBC, despite it correcting a clear market failure.
    I have nothing of the sort but the licence fee is over and it seems two thirds of the public agree
    You’ll be telling us you don’t subscribe to the Daily mail next. The right look at America with envious eyes and dream of Fox News UK. They may well have their way. God help us all.
    My wife subscribes to mail plus and I subscribe to Sky and Sky sports, BT sports, Amazon prime, Disney, and have just cancelled my Netflix sub

    You are obsessed with Fox News which is a channel I never watch nor would I anymore than RT
    You are obsessed with the licence fee.
    Along with 65% of the public and 77% of over 75's

    It has to go
    No it doesn’t. People have never liked paying taxes and never will.
    It will not survive
    Ideological, as I said. Fox News UK here we come.
    I will not be watching Fox news.

    There are and will be myriads of alternative sources of news
    The customer chooses the facts they prefer. We are doomed to the One Britain News Network.
    It is not ideal, but it’s been like that for years now.
    With the BBC we have one source free of commercial or private political influence. No wonder they want to get rid of it.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,599
    The BBC shows loads of adverts, adverts for its own programming.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    https://twitter.com/NHSMillion/status/1299449181241831424

    I had a nurse do my flu jab just last year

    I don't think I have ever had a doctor stick a needle in me, except perhaps as a young child decades ago.
    I’ve had a few, mostly anaesthetists.

    Andy_JS said:

    If we decriminalise paying the license fee, sorry to state the obvious but will people then just not bother to pay it, knowing nothing will happen

    Is it a crime NOT to pay a SKY subscription?
    No you miss my point, if you don't pay your Sky subscription you can't watch Sky, Sky cut the service off.

    The BBC have no way of doing that, from what I understand, so if you decriminalise the fee, nothing can happen if you don't pay. You can watch TV forever with no payment.

    I support decriminalisation BTW, I just can see the argument that it reduces their income.
    The BBC need to think of a way of doing it. People should be able to watch other channels without paying the licence fee.
    I completely agree - but my point was that right now they don't have a way to stop it, I don't think.

    If you plug an aerial into your TV, the BBC cannot stop you from watching BBC1. I don't see how they can ever stop it unless you have to ring them up to activate it, or some other such method.
    I seem to remember that that was down to lobbying by the BBC to prevent the option being built into the specification for digital TV in this country. It would have been simple enough to do to make sure you could not get BBC TV without a license, but they were worried that it would lead to people deciding to opt out.
    When the TV license was first introduced, there were attempts at analogue scramblers/decoders. But they were easy to hack, so the TV license was the solution the UK/BBC went with.

    When digital TV came in, the BBC (as you say) specifically got the requirement for all digital TV system to support encryption removed. This meant that at least *some* TVs couldn't receive an encrypted signal. So, they thought, protecting the license fee forever.

    Then came streaming.
  • So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    I watched films of my choice when I subscribed to it but did not watch 'woke' ones !!!
    Can you not do that with other things, why does the BBC only get complained about for being woke?

    If private companies want to be woke, surely that is up to them, save with whatever else, no?
    Yes it is upto private companies

    However, the BBC are required to be balanced
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    If it were starting from scratch now, you'd set up the BBC as a publicly funded version of PBS in the US. They'd make the programmes that the market won't - the BBC4 and various high arts, religious, childrens (with no adverts), documentary and maybe some genuine investigative journalism like The Cook Report, Crimewatch of old.

    But Broadcast TV is dead. Once fibre to the home is done, the airwaves of old fashioned TV will be auctioned off. That's a decade away at most.
  • So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    I watched films of my choice when I subscribed to it but did not watch 'woke' ones !!!
    Can you not do that with other things, why does the BBC only get complained about for being woke?

    If private companies want to be woke, surely that is up to them, save with whatever else, no?
    Yes it is upto private companies

    However, the BBC are required to be balanced
    Do you think the BBC should be balanced on climate change, so they have climate change deniers on?
  • Jonathan said:

    The right can’t attack the BBC, so they attack the licence fee. It’s pretty transparent. It’s outdated they cry, despite pretty much everyone still owning a TV. It’s not subtle. Not subtle at all.

    There are an awful lot of people out there who don’t. They use their computers or tablets (or in some cases phones) instead.

    I only use my TV as a big monitor for a computer, console, or DVD player: if I want to watch live TV I use iPlayer or equivalent apps.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Sandpit said:

    If it were starting from scratch now, you'd set up the BBC as a publicly funded version of PBS in the US. They'd make the programmes that the market won't - the BBC4 and various high arts, religious, childrens (with no adverts), documentary and maybe some genuine investigative journalism like The Cook Report, Crimewatch of old.

    But Broadcast TV is dead. Once fibre to the home is done, the airwaves of old fashioned TV will be auctioned off. That's a decade away at most.

    The next battle once the BBC is lost will be net neutrality.
  • So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    I watched films of my choice when I subscribed to it but did not watch 'woke' ones !!!
    Can you not do that with other things, why does the BBC only get complained about for being woke?

    If private companies want to be woke, surely that is up to them, save with whatever else, no?
    Yes it is upto private companies

    However, the BBC are required to be balanced
    Do you think the BBC should be balanced on climate change, so they have climate change deniers on?
    You would think so but I am not a climate change denier
  • So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    I watched films of my choice when I subscribed to it but did not watch 'woke' ones !!!
    Can you not do that with other things, why does the BBC only get complained about for being woke?

    If private companies want to be woke, surely that is up to them, save with whatever else, no?
    Yes it is upto private companies

    However, the BBC are required to be balanced
    Do you think the BBC should be balanced on climate change, so they have climate change deniers on?
    You would think so but I am not a climate change denier
    It was just an example.

    I think it will be a great shame to lose the BBC in its current form but I am not a big BBC user beyond BBC News
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited August 2020
    Sandpit said:

    If it were starting from scratch now, you'd set up the BBC as a publicly funded version of PBS in the US. They'd make the programmes that the market won't - the BBC4 and various high arts, religious, childrens (with no adverts), documentary and maybe some genuine investigative journalism like The Cook Report, Crimewatch of old.

    But Broadcast TV is dead. Once fibre to the home is done, the airwaves of old fashioned TV will be auctioned off. That's a decade away at most.

    I doubt it, on a dark and wet evening like tonight you are still going to watch TV with your family, even if if the BBC is competing with Netflix for your viewing you will still watch it on your TV set on the whole rather than a laptop
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited August 2020

    Sandpit said:

    So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Right now they're desperately defending themselves over a movie called Cuties, that portrays pubescent girls in an overtly sexual manner.
    So they have the right to do that right?
    Yes.

    It's a French arthouse film, and treads a very uncomfortable line between decency and woke. BBFC would rate it 18, despite the fact that most of the actors are younger than that.

    Online commentators are saying things like this would be Roman Polanski's dream movie to make, with all those young girls.
  • Time to say good night folks
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sacre Bleu. That said, death rates are quite different. It’s a puzzle.
    Yes, although you need to adjust for the fact that there's a lot more testing now, so in France (as in the UK) they are no doubt detecting a larger proportion of the true number of cases than they were in March/April. Even allowing for that, though, the current increase in France is alarming.

    As you say, the death rates are also puzzling. One just has to hope that it's not simply a case of a time-lag.
    Let’s hope this time we do not follow the continent, but the deviation between death rates and cases needs to be investigated. It’s striking.
    It's very simple, really - the profile of those infected has massively shifted to younger people. This shows the age profile, for each week of the year, of those infected with COVID19

    image
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    The right can’t attack the BBC, so they attack the licence fee. It’s pretty transparent. It’s outdated they cry, despite pretty much everyone still owning a TV. It’s not subtle. Not subtle at all.

    There are an awful lot of people out there who don’t. They use their computers or tablets (or in some cases phones) instead.

    I only use my TV as a big monitor for a computer, console, or DVD player: if I want to watch live TV I use iPlayer or equivalent apps.
    I dare say many more are using TVs than in the licence fees heyday in he 60s and 70s

    https://www.closer.ac.uk/data/television-ownership-in-domestic-households/
  • So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    I watched films of my choice when I subscribed to it but did not watch 'woke' ones !!!
    Can you not do that with other things, why does the BBC only get complained about for being woke?

    If private companies want to be woke, surely that is up to them, save with whatever else, no?
    Yes it is upto private companies

    However, the BBC are required to be balanced
    Do you think the BBC should be balanced on climate change, so they have climate change deniers on?
    You would think so but I am not a climate change denier
    What about flat earthers ?

    Should they also be on to give balance every time someone talks about anything space related ?
  • So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    Why should we? If you don't like it, don't pay for it. Its simple economics.

    People have to pay for the BBC whether they want to watch it or not, that's the difference. The law says I need to pay the licence fee even if I never watch the BBC if I ever watch or stream any alternative TV live. Even if all I do is to stream Sky Football live hypothetically, I must still pay the Licence Fee.

    Its nonsense and unjustifiable. I'd possibly pay the licence fee voluntarily if I had to choose, but if I did it would be my choice.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Britain will be poorer without the BBC. Sadly folk are hellbent on its demise. They will probably get their way. Enjoy it whilst you still have it.
  • I think "woke" means different things to different people.

    I think a lot of older people think young people are very "woke" but I think most people aren't woke at all, what you might consider "woke" we consider normal.

    I'm trying to think of a good example
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    edited August 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    If it were starting from scratch now, you'd set up the BBC as a publicly funded version of PBS in the US. They'd make the programmes that the market won't - the BBC4 and various high arts, religious, childrens (with no adverts), documentary and maybe some genuine investigative journalism like The Cook Report, Crimewatch of old.

    But Broadcast TV is dead. Once fibre to the home is done, the airwaves of old fashioned TV will be auctioned off. That's a decade away at most.

    I doubt it, on a dark and wet evening like tonight you are still going to watch TV with your family, even if if the BBC is competing with Netflix for your viewing you will still watch it on your TV set on the whole rather than a laptop
    My family are watching different things in separate rooms on multiple devices.
    Me and the Mrs generally watch the same thing.
    But rarely not a streaming service anymore.
    Having said that the BBC is top for radio...couldn't do without it.
  • So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    I watched films of my choice when I subscribed to it but did not watch 'woke' ones !!!
    Can you not do that with other things, why does the BBC only get complained about for being woke?

    If private companies want to be woke, surely that is up to them, save with whatever else, no?
    Yes it is upto private companies

    However, the BBC are required to be balanced
    Do you think the BBC should be balanced on climate change, so they have climate change deniers on?
    You would think so but I am not a climate change denier
    What about flat earthers ?

    Should they also be on to give balance every time someone talks about anything space related ?
    What about Marxists? Should they be allowed to comment on anything to do with economics?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    Trafalgar have a poll showing Trump up 47-45 in Michigan.

    To be more accurate, Trump leads 46.6-45.2. Before the Democrat convention, he led 46.9-44.2 and after the Democrat convention, he led 46.5-45.6 so tiny changes with both Trump and Biden votes solid within the margin of error.

    As I suspected, the conventions have made little or no difference (and I suspect the debate won't either). The US electorate is highly polarised and views are entrenched.

    Only 3.6% are still undecided which is extraordinary so far from the election.I have no idea how representative the Trafalgar sampling is because I don't know enough about Michigan.

    Trafalgar adjusts for shy Trump voters. How accurate that will be is the big question.
    It was accurate in 2016, though they have had Biden up in Michigan earlier in the summer.
    On the subject of Trafalgar, didn't they overstate Trump in every state? It led to them giving him the lead in (for example) Florida, but their forecast of a four point lead was a lot bigger than the actual 1.3% lead.
    They lean slightly Republican but they did forecast correctly Trump would win Michigan and Pennsylvania in 2016 unlike every other pollster
    Here's the thing: if they forecast Michigan as 99% Trump, 1% Clinton, they would have gotten the result right. It's just they would have got the vote shares completely wrong.

    My point is that they typically overstated Trump's margin by around three points (and I think they were similarly out in the 2018 midterms), and we should bear that in mind.

    As an aside, what's your definition of 'slight'?
  • https://twitter.com/NHSMillion/status/1299449181241831424

    I had a nurse do my flu jab just last year

    I don't think I have ever had a doctor stick a needle in me, except perhaps as a young child decades ago.
    I’ve had a few, mostly anaesthetists.

    Andy_JS said:

    If we decriminalise paying the license fee, sorry to state the obvious but will people then just not bother to pay it, knowing nothing will happen

    Is it a crime NOT to pay a SKY subscription?
    No you miss my point, if you don't pay your Sky subscription you can't watch Sky, Sky cut the service off.

    The BBC have no way of doing that, from what I understand, so if you decriminalise the fee, nothing can happen if you don't pay. You can watch TV forever with no payment.

    I support decriminalisation BTW, I just can see the argument that it reduces their income.
    The BBC need to think of a way of doing it. People should be able to watch other channels without paying the licence fee.
    I completely agree - but my point was that right now they don't have a way to stop it, I don't think.

    If you plug an aerial into your TV, the BBC cannot stop you from watching BBC1. I don't see how they can ever stop it unless you have to ring them up to activate it, or some other such method.
    I seem to remember that that was down to lobbying by the BBC to prevent the option being built into the specification for digital TV in this country. It would have been simple enough to do to make sure you could not get BBC TV without a license, but they were worried that it would lead to people deciding to opt out.
    When the TV license was first introduced, there were attempts at analogue scramblers/decoders. But they were easy to hack, so the TV license was the solution the UK/BBC went with.

    When digital TV came in, the BBC (as you say) specifically got the requirement for all digital TV system to support encryption removed. This meant that at least *some* TVs couldn't receive an encrypted signal. So, they thought, protecting the license fee forever.

    Then came streaming.
    POBBCWAS.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    I think "woke" means different things to different people.

    It's a curious pejorative because if you're not woke, what are you? See also: antifa.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Time to say good night folks

    good night folks
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    Why should we? If you don't like it, don't pay for it. Its simple economics.

    People have to pay for the BBC whether they want to watch it or not, that's the difference. The law says I need to pay the licence fee even if I never watch the BBC if I ever watch or stream any alternative TV live. Even if all I do is to stream Sky Football live hypothetically, I must still pay the Licence Fee.

    Its nonsense and unjustifiable. I'd possibly pay the licence fee voluntarily if I had to choose, but if I did it would be my choice.
    I don’t use motorways, primary schools, military bands or nuclear bombs. Can I pay less tax please? It’s nonsense and unjustifiable that I have to pay for these things I don’t use. If I want to use a motorway I’ll pay for it .
  • I don't use the NHS, can I stop paying National Insurance
  • I don't want the Royal Family, can I stop paying taxes to support them
  • Jonathan said:

    Britain will be poorer without the BBC. Sadly folk are hellbent on its demise. They will probably get their way. Enjoy it whilst you still have it.

    If we enjoyed it, there'd be no reason not to pay for it voluntarily.

    Its called free choice. Maybe you should familiarise yourself with the concept.
  • Fundamentally, it is whether you consider the BBC a public good or a public benefit, as to whether you think we should all pay for it.

    If you don't, then we don't, otherwise we should.

    It's the same logic for healthcare, or roads, or railways
  • Jonathan said:

    So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    Why should we? If you don't like it, don't pay for it. Its simple economics.

    People have to pay for the BBC whether they want to watch it or not, that's the difference. The law says I need to pay the licence fee even if I never watch the BBC if I ever watch or stream any alternative TV live. Even if all I do is to stream Sky Football live hypothetically, I must still pay the Licence Fee.

    Its nonsense and unjustifiable. I'd possibly pay the licence fee voluntarily if I had to choose, but if I did it would be my choice.
    I don’t use motorways, primary schools, military bands or nuclear bombs. Can I pay less tax please? It’s nonsense and unjustifiable that I have to pay for these things I don’t use. If I want to use a motorway I’ll pay for it .
    If you don't use roads then I'm assuming you don't pay Vehicle Excise Duty or Fuel Duty. The government makes a profit on providing roads, it doesn't cost the government money. So yes, if you don't use roads you are paying less in tax as you're not paying those duties.

    Schools provide a public service, unlike the BBC.

    The military provides public security, unlike the BBC.
  • Jonathan said:

    Britain will be poorer without the BBC. Sadly folk are hellbent on its demise. They will probably get their way. Enjoy it whilst you still have it.

    If we enjoyed it, there'd be no reason not to pay for it voluntarily.

    Its called free choice. Maybe you should familiarise yourself with the concept.
    So just a question, we shouldn't pay public money for roads right?
  • Hold on, vehicle excise duty doesn't pay for roads, you surely must know this, it goes into the same pot as everything else
  • Jonathan said:

    Britain will be poorer without the BBC. Sadly folk are hellbent on its demise. They will probably get their way. Enjoy it whilst you still have it.

    If we enjoyed it, there'd be no reason not to pay for it voluntarily.

    Its called free choice. Maybe you should familiarise yourself with the concept.
    So just a question, we shouldn't pay public money for roads right?
    If the government abolishes fuel duty and vehicle excise duty then sure I'm happy for all roads to be privatised too.

    Otherwise the government is indirectly charging us for the roads already - and making quite some profit on doing so. Drivers are massively overtaxed already.
  • Jonathan said:

    Britain will be poorer without the BBC. Sadly folk are hellbent on its demise. They will probably get their way. Enjoy it whilst you still have it.

    If we enjoyed it, there'd be no reason not to pay for it voluntarily.

    Its called free choice. Maybe you should familiarise yourself with the concept.
    So just a question, we shouldn't pay public money for roads right?
    If the government abolishes fuel duty and vehicle excise duty then sure I'm happy for all roads to be privatised too.

    Otherwise the government is indirectly charging us for the roads already - and making quite some profit on doing so. Drivers are massively overtaxed already.
    But you're funding the roads without owning a car, so that's the point: can I pay less tax because I don't own a car, nor use the roads
  • Hold on, vehicle excise duty doesn't pay for roads, you surely must know this, it goes into the same pot as everything else

    You're right VED and Fuel Duty pay much more than just the roads. If they were hypothecated then the roads would be getting a lot more money or those taxes would be a lot lower.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    Why should we? If you don't like it, don't pay for it. Its simple economics.

    People have to pay for the BBC whether they want to watch it or not, that's the difference. The law says I need to pay the licence fee even if I never watch the BBC if I ever watch or stream any alternative TV live. Even if all I do is to stream Sky Football live hypothetically, I must still pay the Licence Fee.

    Its nonsense and unjustifiable. I'd possibly pay the licence fee voluntarily if I had to choose, but if I did it would be my choice.
    I don’t use motorways, primary schools, military bands or nuclear bombs. Can I pay less tax please? It’s nonsense and unjustifiable that I have to pay for these things I don’t use. If I want to use a motorway I’ll pay for it .
    If you don't use roads then I'm assuming you don't pay Vehicle Excise Duty or Fuel Duty. The government makes a profit on providing roads, it doesn't cost the government money. So yes, if you don't use roads you are paying less in tax as you're not paying those duties.

    Schools provide a public service, unlike the BBC.

    The military provides public security, unlike the BBC.
    Military bands do not provide security so far as I can see, The BBC most definitely provides a public service.
  • Jonathan said:

    Britain will be poorer without the BBC. Sadly folk are hellbent on its demise. They will probably get their way. Enjoy it whilst you still have it.

    If we enjoyed it, there'd be no reason not to pay for it voluntarily.

    Its called free choice. Maybe you should familiarise yourself with the concept.
    So just a question, we shouldn't pay public money for roads right?
    If the government abolishes fuel duty and vehicle excise duty then sure I'm happy for all roads to be privatised too.

    Otherwise the government is indirectly charging us for the roads already - and making quite some profit on doing so. Drivers are massively overtaxed already.
    But you're funding the roads without owning a car, so that's the point: can I pay less tax because I don't own a car, nor use the roads
    Yes. If you're not owning a car and not using the roads then you're not paying VED and not paying Fuel Duty. Less tax.

    I don't smoke so I don't pay those taxes.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited August 2020

    Fundamentally, it is whether you consider the BBC a public good or a public benefit, as to whether you think we should all pay for it.

    If you don't, then we don't, otherwise we should.

    It's the same logic for healthcare, or roads, or railways

    The "Public Good" bit can be funded from general taxation, without needing everyone to contribute to the rest of it via a bureaucratic and criminal system.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    I think "woke" means different things to different people.

    It's a curious pejorative because if you're not woke, what are you? See also: antifa.
    Woke is just today's politically correct. I frankly hate the term myself.

    I think it's entirely subjective and depends entirely on the person.

    I can't think of anything I'd call "woke" but I'm sure there are things I do that others would say were woke.

    It's this idea there's a single set of "woke" things like the Telegraph believes, that is very bemusing to me.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    Why should we? If you don't like it, don't pay for it. Its simple economics.

    People have to pay for the BBC whether they want to watch it or not, that's the difference. The law says I need to pay the licence fee even if I never watch the BBC if I ever watch or stream any alternative TV live. Even if all I do is to stream Sky Football live hypothetically, I must still pay the Licence Fee.

    Its nonsense and unjustifiable. I'd possibly pay the licence fee voluntarily if I had to choose, but if I did it would be my choice.
    I don’t use motorways, primary schools, military bands or nuclear bombs. Can I pay less tax please? It’s nonsense and unjustifiable that I have to pay for these things I don’t use. If I want to use a motorway I’ll pay for it .
    If you don't use roads then I'm assuming you don't pay Vehicle Excise Duty or Fuel Duty. The government makes a profit on providing roads, it doesn't cost the government money. So yes, if you don't use roads you are paying less in tax as you're not paying those duties.

    Schools provide a public service, unlike the BBC.

    The military provides public security, unlike the BBC.
    Military bands do not provide security so far as I can see, The BBC most definitely provides a public service.
    What public service does Homes Under The Hammer serve?
  • Hold on, vehicle excise duty doesn't pay for roads, you surely must know this, it goes into the same pot as everything else

    You're right VED and Fuel Duty pay much more than just the roads. If they were hypothecated then the roads would be getting a lot more money or those taxes would be a lot lower.
    It's a simple yes or no, if I don't use the roads nor own a car, please can I have a lower tax rate as I don't want any of my taxes going to something I don't use?
  • Jonathan said:

    Britain will be poorer without the BBC. Sadly folk are hellbent on its demise. They will probably get their way. Enjoy it whilst you still have it.

    The BBC at its best is superb, and I would almost certainly continue to pay if the license fee became voluntary.
    However I think they have made some significant mistakes in trying to hold onto a model that has a limited shelf life for too long. While there are many people who sit down in the evening and see what’s on the telly, most now are streaming what they want when they want it (with the major exceptions of live sport and news).

    They have a huge back catalogue of outstanding programmes that they could use to raise revenue in a much more targeted way than the rather pathetic BritBox (which I do subscribe to, but mostly for Midsommer Murders (and yes, I know that is from ITV)) and they could then compete with the likes of Netflix and Amazon Prime. Trying to stick to the old way of doing things and they will end up like BlockBuster.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    On what basis are drivers overtaxed? Especially when we consider the externalities of motoring.

    I say this as someone who loves driving.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    I don't use the NHS, can I stop paying National Insurance

    My kids just left school. That's off my bill too.
  • Fundamentally, it is whether you consider the BBC a public good or a public benefit, as to whether you think we should all pay for it.

    If you don't, then we don't, otherwise we should.

    It's the same logic for healthcare, or roads, or railways

    Its not a public good or a public benefit. Its an entertainment package no more special than any other - and more expensive than comparable ones like Netflix.
  • Sandpit said:

    Fundamentally, it is whether you consider the BBC a public good or a public benefit, as to whether you think we should all pay for it.

    If you don't, then we don't, otherwise we should.

    It's the same logic for healthcare, or roads, or railways

    The "Public Good" bit can be funded from general taxation, without needing everyone to contribute to the rest of it via a bureaucratic and criminal system.
    Okay but you're happy with the BBC continuing to make a loss under that system right, or you think it needs to balance its costs, in which case it presumably needs to start offering advertising, etc?

    I think there's a difference between supporting abolishing the license fee and keeping the BBC as a public corp which we fund through tax, vs privatising it and making it commercial.

    Do you see what I'm getting at? My fear is that with the Tories in charge abolishing the license fee leads to privatisation.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    VED is a tax on emissions...
  • I don't go to school, please can I stop my taxes being spent on that
  • Hold on, vehicle excise duty doesn't pay for roads, you surely must know this, it goes into the same pot as everything else

    You're right VED and Fuel Duty pay much more than just the roads. If they were hypothecated then the roads would be getting a lot more money or those taxes would be a lot lower.
    It's a simple yes or no, if I don't use the roads nor own a car, please can I have a lower tax rate as I don't want any of my taxes going to something I don't use?
    Yes.

    If you don't use the roads, nor own a car, then you have lower taxes as you're not paying fuel duty and you're not paying vehicle excise duty.

    Now if I don't want to watch the BBC, but do want to watch other live channels, then can I not pay the Licence Fee?
  • I am perfectly happy with abolishing the license fee if that means the BBC is funded through general taxation and it is kept publicly owned. No issues with that at all.
  • BBC should be funded via a tax on utility bills so no one can avoid it.

    Probably also should provide some level of local media as local democracy has almost no media to hold it to account any more.
  • So why do we have to pay for university? That's not a public good then? Why can't that come out of general taxation
  • BBC should be funded via a tax on utility bills so no one can avoid it.

    Probably also should provide some level of local media as local democracy has almost no media to hold it to account any more.

    If this is the end case, I am perfectly happy with that
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    Why should we? If you don't like it, don't pay for it. Its simple economics.

    People have to pay for the BBC whether they want to watch it or not, that's the difference. The law says I need to pay the licence fee even if I never watch the BBC if I ever watch or stream any alternative TV live. Even if all I do is to stream Sky Football live hypothetically, I must still pay the Licence Fee.

    Its nonsense and unjustifiable. I'd possibly pay the licence fee voluntarily if I had to choose, but if I did it would be my choice.
    I don’t use motorways, primary schools, military bands or nuclear bombs. Can I pay less tax please? It’s nonsense and unjustifiable that I have to pay for these things I don’t use. If I want to use a motorway I’ll pay for it .
    If you don't use roads then I'm assuming you don't pay Vehicle Excise Duty or Fuel Duty. The government makes a profit on providing roads, it doesn't cost the government money. So yes, if you don't use roads you are paying less in tax as you're not paying those duties.

    Schools provide a public service, unlike the BBC.

    The military provides public security, unlike the BBC.
    Military bands do not provide security so far as I can see, The BBC most definitely provides a public service.
    What public service does Homes Under The Hammer serve?
    Entertainment.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    So here's a question, if Netflix wants to be "woke" does it as a private company have the right to offer whatever programming it wants?

    Of course.
    Netflix is very woke, I am surprised so many here don't spend ages complaining about it
    Why should we? If you don't like it, don't pay for it. Its simple economics.

    People have to pay for the BBC whether they want to watch it or not, that's the difference. The law says I need to pay the licence fee even if I never watch the BBC if I ever watch or stream any alternative TV live. Even if all I do is to stream Sky Football live hypothetically, I must still pay the Licence Fee.

    Its nonsense and unjustifiable. I'd possibly pay the licence fee voluntarily if I had to choose, but if I did it would be my choice.
    I don’t use motorways, primary schools, military bands or nuclear bombs. Can I pay less tax please? It’s nonsense and unjustifiable that I have to pay for these things I don’t use. If I want to use a motorway I’ll pay for it .
    If you don't use roads then I'm assuming you don't pay Vehicle Excise Duty or Fuel Duty. The government makes a profit on providing roads, it doesn't cost the government money. So yes, if you don't use roads you are paying less in tax as you're not paying those duties.

    Schools provide a public service, unlike the BBC.

    The military provides public security, unlike the BBC.
    Military bands do not provide security so far as I can see, The BBC most definitely provides a public service.
    What public service does Homes Under The Hammer serve?
    Preventing folk from taking a look at how disappointing, miserable and devoid of meaning their life is?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Fundamentally, it is whether you consider the BBC a public good or a public benefit, as to whether you think we should all pay for it.

    If you don't, then we don't, otherwise we should.

    It's the same logic for healthcare, or roads, or railways

    Its not a public good or a public benefit. Its an entertainment package no more special than any other - and more expensive than comparable ones like Netflix.
    You do whatever mental gymnastics you need to do to justify your position mate.
  • Like I said above, privatising it is different to just abolishing the license fee.

    I think Philip supports remove license fee + privatise it. I most certainly don't support privatising it
  • Hold on, vehicle excise duty doesn't pay for roads, you surely must know this, it goes into the same pot as everything else

    You're right VED and Fuel Duty pay much more than just the roads. If they were hypothecated then the roads would be getting a lot more money or those taxes would be a lot lower.
    It's a simple yes or no, if I don't use the roads nor own a car, please can I have a lower tax rate as I don't want any of my taxes going to something I don't use?
    Yes.

    If you don't use the roads, nor own a car, then you have lower taxes as you're not paying fuel duty and you're not paying vehicle excise duty.

    Now if I don't want to watch the BBC, but do want to watch other live channels, then can I not pay the Licence Fee?
    Why is my tax money still being spent on the roads then?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    Like I said above, privatising it is different to just abolishing the license fee.

    I think Philip supports remove license fee + privatise it. I most certainly don't support privatising it

    They can’t attack the BBC, so they attack the licence fee instead.
  • Jonathan said:

    Britain will be poorer without the BBC. Sadly folk are hellbent on its demise. They will probably get their way. Enjoy it whilst you still have it.

    The BBC at its best is superb, and I would almost certainly continue to pay if the license fee became voluntary.
    However I think they have made some significant mistakes in trying to hold onto a model that has a limited shelf life for too long. While there are many people who sit down in the evening and see what’s on the telly, most now are streaming what they want when they want it (with the major exceptions of live sport and news).

    They have a huge back catalogue of outstanding programmes that they could use to raise revenue in a much more targeted way than the rather pathetic BritBox (which I do subscribe to, but mostly for Midsommer Murders (and yes, I know that is from ITV)) and they could then compete with the likes of Netflix and Amazon Prime. Trying to stick to the old way of doing things and they will end up like BlockBuster.
    What do you suggest instead of BritBox, isn't that trying to be more modern or have I missed your point?

    The strength is surely in programmes like Top Gear and Doctor Who, that's where all the money is. Can they make more out of them than they already do?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    “Public good” is just whatever @Philip_Thompson thinks the Government should be subsidizing for him. Otherwise everyone else can get stuffed.
  • That survey should have asked opinions on privatising the BBC
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    VED is a tax on emissions...

    VED is a tax on a very carefully defined version of emissions.

    My favorite example of which is the £1m Porsche 918 Spyder, which pays no car tax and is exempt from the congestion charge, but does 217mph and 0-60 in under three seconds when it switches on the big V8.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Hold on, vehicle excise duty doesn't pay for roads, you surely must know this, it goes into the same pot as everything else

    You're right VED and Fuel Duty pay much more than just the roads. If they were hypothecated then the roads would be getting a lot more money or those taxes would be a lot lower.
    It's a simple yes or no, if I don't use the roads nor own a car, please can I have a lower tax rate as I don't want any of my taxes going to something I don't use?
    Yes.

    If you don't use the roads, nor own a car, then you have lower taxes as you're not paying fuel duty and you're not paying vehicle excise duty.

    Now if I don't want to watch the BBC, but do want to watch other live channels, then can I not pay the Licence Fee?
    Why is my tax money still being spent on the roads then?
    You probably use it indirectly. Deliveries to your house, to the supermarket where you buy food, etc.
  • Fundamentally, it is whether you consider the BBC a public good or a public benefit, as to whether you think we should all pay for it.

    If you don't, then we don't, otherwise we should.

    It's the same logic for healthcare, or roads, or railways

    What about newspapers: should you pay for them as well?

    That is actually a serious question. For local government to be properly democratic it needs to be supervised, and local papers are the traditional way of doing that. As many are loss making this becoming harder, so should we use taxes to subsidise them? Perhaps we could have a Reading License and charge anybody who owns a book £50 a year?
  • RobD said:

    Hold on, vehicle excise duty doesn't pay for roads, you surely must know this, it goes into the same pot as everything else

    You're right VED and Fuel Duty pay much more than just the roads. If they were hypothecated then the roads would be getting a lot more money or those taxes would be a lot lower.
    It's a simple yes or no, if I don't use the roads nor own a car, please can I have a lower tax rate as I don't want any of my taxes going to something I don't use?
    Yes.

    If you don't use the roads, nor own a car, then you have lower taxes as you're not paying fuel duty and you're not paying vehicle excise duty.

    Now if I don't want to watch the BBC, but do want to watch other live channels, then can I not pay the Licence Fee?
    Why is my tax money still being spent on the roads then?
    You probably use it indirectly. Deliveries to your house, to the supermarket where you buy food, etc.
    Don't use schools, can I have a reduction for those please
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    RobD said:

    Hold on, vehicle excise duty doesn't pay for roads, you surely must know this, it goes into the same pot as everything else

    You're right VED and Fuel Duty pay much more than just the roads. If they were hypothecated then the roads would be getting a lot more money or those taxes would be a lot lower.
    It's a simple yes or no, if I don't use the roads nor own a car, please can I have a lower tax rate as I don't want any of my taxes going to something I don't use?
    Yes.

    If you don't use the roads, nor own a car, then you have lower taxes as you're not paying fuel duty and you're not paying vehicle excise duty.

    Now if I don't want to watch the BBC, but do want to watch other live channels, then can I not pay the Licence Fee?
    Why is my tax money still being spent on the roads then?
    You probably use it indirectly. Deliveries to your house, to the supermarket where you buy food, etc.
    Don't use schools, can I have a reduction for those please
    I assume you used one in the past?
  • Fundamentally, it is whether you consider the BBC a public good or a public benefit, as to whether you think we should all pay for it.

    If you don't, then we don't, otherwise we should.

    It's the same logic for healthcare, or roads, or railways

    What about newspapers: should you pay for them as well?

    That is actually a serious question. For local government to be properly democratic it needs to be supervised, and local papers are the traditional way of doing that. As many are loss making this becoming harder, so should we use taxes to subsidise them? Perhaps we could have a Reading License and charge anybody who owns a book £50 a year?
    I'm not sure, for me the papers don't even try to be impartial, the BBC does its best.

    I don't see the papers as providing a vital public service, unlike BBC News say.

    If the BBC was Fox News and we were publicly paying for it, I would get the hatred but to me it is fairly balanced and that is shown in getting complaints from both sides
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Hold on, vehicle excise duty doesn't pay for roads, you surely must know this, it goes into the same pot as everything else

    You're right VED and Fuel Duty pay much more than just the roads. If they were hypothecated then the roads would be getting a lot more money or those taxes would be a lot lower.
    It's a simple yes or no, if I don't use the roads nor own a car, please can I have a lower tax rate as I don't want any of my taxes going to something I don't use?
    Yes.

    If you don't use the roads, nor own a car, then you have lower taxes as you're not paying fuel duty and you're not paying vehicle excise duty.

    Now if I don't want to watch the BBC, but do want to watch other live channels, then can I not pay the Licence Fee?
    Why is my tax money still being spent on the roads then?
    You probably use it indirectly. Deliveries to your house, to the supermarket where you buy food, etc.
    Don't use schools, can I have a reduction for those please
    I assume you used one in the past?
    How is that relevant? I'm still paying for schools now.

    Did you use the BBC in the past? You must keep paying your license fee forever
  • Like I said above, privatising it is different to just abolishing the license fee.

    I think Philip supports remove license fee + privatise it. I most certainly don't support privatising it

    I never said that.

    If it was up to me I'd make the BBC Trust a wholly independent Charity like the National Trust. It could then choose to raise revenues however it pleases, whether it be through fundraising drives like PBS, or subscription fees, or charitable donations, or however else it chooses to do it. It would be the BBC's choice not mine.

    The Trust might choose to become a business instead of a charity in which case so be it, but it'd be more tax advantageous to be a charity.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    BBC should be funded via a tax on utility bills so no one can avoid it.

    Probably also should provide some level of local media as local democracy has almost no media to hold it to account any more.

    Really, really good point about local media. Most are now run by either large media companies with no local presence, or groups pushing a political agenda.
  • I don't go to school, please can I stop my taxes being spent on that

    See, I said state schools were bad...
  • Like I said above, privatising it is different to just abolishing the license fee.

    I think Philip supports remove license fee + privatise it. I most certainly don't support privatising it

    I never said that.

    If it was up to me I'd make the BBC Trust a wholly independent Charity like the National Trust. It could then choose to raise revenues however it pleases, whether it be through fundraising drives like PBS, or subscription fees, or charitable donations, or however else it chooses to do it. It would be the BBC's choice not mine.

    The Trust might choose to become a business instead of a charity in which case so be it, but it'd be more tax advantageous to be a charity.
    But that is privatising it?

    The BBC should remain owned by the Government in my view, even if we abolish the license fee.
  • Local media, I think more should be done to support those indeed.
This discussion has been closed.