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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour’s Corbynistas have yet to face the unpalatable fact tha

SystemSystem Posts: 11,016
edited August 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour’s Corbynistas have yet to face the unpalatable fact that their man won GE2019 for Boris

A reminder of why LAB lost a fifth of its vote at GE2019 thus giving Johnson his whopping majority. pic.twitter.com/C040mLsHLK

Read the full story here

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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    edited August 2020
    1st like Swinson into the job centre
  • Options
    CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited August 2020
    FPT:
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It's no exaggeration to say the government could be brought down by the exams / grading fiasco. This is really serious, even more so than the Covid-19 situation itself IMO (although they're obviously related).

    Nah no chance.
    We'll see what happens. Just been listening to an interview with a student on Radio Five Live.
    Problem is, young people don't bother to vote.
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    CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited August 2020
    Good header Mike - and my apologies earlier for posting a user that had used it without credit.

    Labour will do better I think in 2024, because their leader is not Corbyn. I think at worst they could do as badly as Ed M.

    At best, I think they have a C&S with the Lib Dems. I think realistically it's a small Tory majority or Labour as a minority with the SNP propping them up.

    Recent polls really show how much of a mess Labour is in without a stronger Lib Dem vote. The Tories being as strong as they are, means they really need to fall below 40% for Labour to gain enough seats to govern even as a minority. Right now that does not look likely.

    39% though for Starmer is decent progress from the 20 points behind they were a few months ago. Post 2017 in the polls I believe Corbyn had 45% at one point, so I wonder where those extra 6 points are now.
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    @MikeSmithson that poll breaks down by region but do you have breakdown for red wall seats lost to the Tories?

    I find it stunning even in the North Brexit was so small compared to the leadership. I did think it would be more for Brexit.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    @MikeSmithson that poll breaks down by region but do you have breakdown for red wall seats lost to the Tories?

    I find it stunning even in the North Brexit was so small compared to the leadership. I did think it would be more for Brexit.

    The only breakdown is by region as shown
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    @MikeSmithson - PalatialBetting? Is this server roomier or better appointed than the other one?
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    On topic: The rejection of Corbyn was, for many of his supporters, a rejection of their core belief system. It was like telling a religious person that there is no God.

    Rather than face the fact that their belief system is a flawed, unwanted failure, it is easier to believe that election was stolen or that a bit more effort would have made the difference.

    How many of us like the thought of admitting that a large part of our life was a complete and utter waste of time? Blaming someone / something else is always easier than facing the truth
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    So I had a pretty major complication with my surgery - a clipped artery causing major bleeding - so had to go back into theatre. Luckily it looks to be all sorted now so I’m on the mend. 👍

    I hope you are well and I am glad it was caught in time. Get well soon :+1:
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    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    @MikeSmithson - PalatialBetting? Is this server roomier or better appointed than the other one?

    A new poster popped up on here a couple of days back to say that the site was easy to hack, and he changed the header to PalatialBetting as a means of demonstrating this.

    My understanding was he was being helpful rather than malevolent and he said that he had emailed Robert to inform him about the weakness.
  • Options
    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Gadfly said:

    @MikeSmithson - PalatialBetting? Is this server roomier or better appointed than the other one?

    A new poster popped up on here a couple of days back to say that the site was easy to hack, and he changed the header to PalatialBetting as a means of demonstrating this.

    My understanding was he was being helpful rather than malevolent and he said that he had emailed Robert to inform him about the weakness.
    Wordpress plugins are notoriously unsafe which is why Wordpress is the favourite target of the criminal elements.
  • Options
    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    In particular, was it below-the-radar (or even open) denigration of Jeremy Corbyn by CCHQ? Was it changes in Corbyn himself? He seemed to age a lot in two years and there was even some speculation about a stroke iirc; he seemed grumpier; his glasses lenses meant he no longer "appeared" to be making eye contact with television audiences.

    If the problem was Corbyn, and not Corbynism, is this what Labour centrists want to hear? The implication is that Labour needs all of Corbyn's policies but not the man himself.

    And who took that idea and ran with it? Boris won on Labour's 2017 platform. Boris won by being a better Jeremy Corbyn than Corbyn himself. (Earlier I'd bet against Boris as leader because I believed Conservative MPs would reject a man susceptible to all the attacks they made against Corbyn.)
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
  • Options

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    edited August 2020

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,287
    edited August 2020
    There's a rule which applies at least to British and US politics for the last 50+ years.

    To become PM or President, you must win at your first attempt - or at least your first serious attempt.

    At your first attempt you are new and fresh and there has been less time for people to take a disliking to you or to your record. Second time around none of these apply so your job is much harder.

    Corbyn 1st attempt was 2017. Lost again at 2nd attempt.

    Hilary's 1st attempt was 2008. Lost again at 2nd attempt.

    The last people to clearly break the rule were Heath and Nixon.

    I would exclude someone going for President and winning Vice-President in the same year as that sort of negates the loss and gives you a step up the ladder for better shot next time - eg Bush Snr.
  • Options

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    The other problem with OGH's graph is the use of the word "leadership". Labour had no leadership because those in charge were not politicians, they were activists.
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Scott_xP said:
    Oops!

    I think that the lawyers have a point. This is going to be another 2020 sh*tshow along with Covid, unemployment and Brexit
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,328
    edited August 2020
    One 2017 factor that is invariably overlooked is the terrorist attacks during the campaign. Although normally law-and-order boosts Conservative votes, in this case Labour could point to the Conservatives' police cuts.

    That's why Boris promised 20,000 new police officers, the same number Labour blamed the Tories for cutting; CCHQ did not simply pluck the number from thin air. To repeat, Boris won on Labour's 2017 platform.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,328
    edited August 2020
    A-levels -- what is the kremlinology of the downgrading fiasco?

    Good for Cummings and bad for the Blob, or bad for Cummings as the leading advocate of blind faith in weirdos and their algorithms?
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    A-levels -- what is the kremlinology of the downgrading fiasco?

    Good for Cummings and bad for the Blob, or bad for Cummings as the leading advocate of blind faith in weirdos and their algorithms?

    If Boris goes, Cummings goes too.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,328
    edited August 2020

    A-levels -- what is the kremlinology of the downgrading fiasco?

    Good for Cummings and bad for the Blob, or bad for Cummings as the leading advocate of blind faith in weirdos and their algorithms?

    If Boris goes, Cummings goes too.
    Yes but what of the other way round? Cummings is in the middle of a huge (but not much-reported) turf war and power grab from Whitehall to Number 10; as well as Brexit and the pandemic and now the exams stramash.

    If two or more of these go badly, will Cummings become a human shield for Boris? Will the party force Boris to ditch Cummings as the price of his own survival, like Theresa May was forced to axe Nick and Fiona after the 2017 election disaster (which imo was more the responsibility of Lynton Crosby)?
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    A-levels and algorithms. One confounding factor might be that in real exams, grades are not distributed identically by subject or by year.

    There is also wide variation this year with the non-exam exam results this year.

    ... in French, for example, the share of pupils getting an A or above increased to nearly a half – 46.0% – from 36.4% last year. At grade C or above, there was an increase from 85.2% to 89.6%.
    https://ffteducationdatalab.org.uk/2020/08/a-level-results-2020-the-main-trends-in-grades-and-entries/

    Look at music! And PBers will note history did worse than physics; worse in terms of sudden jumps in performance, that is.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good morning, everyone.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Scott_xP said:
    Not really a solution to that since Williamson’s “triple lock” and promise was made on the hoof in completely ignorance of what Mock exams are, whether everyone had done them(they hadn’t) and the completely different ways schools use and mark them.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,510

    So I had a pretty major complication with my surgery - a clipped artery causing major bleeding - so had to go back into theatre. Luckily it looks to be all sorted now so I’m on the mend. 👍

    Sounds nasty, and I’m very glad they sorted it.
    Was it painful ? I suffered post-op internal bleeding back in the 80s, and it remains the most painful thing I have ever experienced.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
    Mike's graph is about those folk who changed their vote away from Labour between 2017 and 2019. Even the relatively small number who shifted over Brexit don't say why. For at least some it may have been a move to LDs, SNP and Greens to a more clearly anti Brexit party, particularly so in London and SE. Swinson for all her failures did increase the LD popular vote from 8 to 12%.

    It does indicate that folk didn't like the Labour leadership, but not why. Mostly the novelty of Corbyn wore off as his toxicity and vacuity became clear.

    Worth noting too that Corbyns best performance was a hundred seats worse than Blairs worst performance.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592

    A-levels -- what is the kremlinology of the downgrading fiasco?

    Good for Cummings and bad for the Blob, or bad for Cummings as the leading advocate of blind faith in weirdos and their algorithms?

    It does rather show that his "Superforecasters" are a bunch of duffers, downgrading the oiks and upgrading the poshest, with a large random element mixed in.

    It doesn't take much forecasting ability to have spotted that would not go down well.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Foxy said:

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
    Mike's graph is about those folk who changed their vote away from Labour between 2017 and 2019. Even the relatively small number who shifted over Brexit don't say why. For at least some it may have been a move to LDs, SNP and Greens to a more clearly anti Brexit party, particularly so in London and SE. Swinson for all her failures did increase the LD popular vote from 8 to 12%.

    It does indicate that folk didn't like the Labour leadership, but not why. Mostly the novelty of Corbyn wore off as his toxicity and vacuity became clear.

    Worth noting too that Corbyns best performance was a hundred seats worse than Blairs worst performance.
    Bad as Corbyn was you have to go back to the 1970s to see Labour winning elections with one glaring exception - the one many Labour supporters and probably a big majority of members are wholly embarrassed by. But he was the only one who could take the public with him - the rest simply couldn't do it.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    The USPS story is seeing a strong, strong reaction from the Conservative wing of the Dem party. Joe Manchin is furious, this is a hill he is willing to die on. The Conservative Dems have always been recommending against hearings and the like but on this they are screaming for a hearing right now this second.

    https://twitter.com/stevebenen/status/1294788800972029954?s=19
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Betting Post

    F1: couple of tips. Due to lack of time today the follow-up may be delayed or not posted at all:
    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2020/08/spain-pre-race-2020.html

    Backed Leclerc to be best of the rest and Verstappen to win.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Old People's home in Almeria city in Spain has gone from 4 cases to 67 over this w/e - 20 of them staff. It's pretty extraordinary that this has happened after all that has gone before. However, some say the authorities have everything under control.....no doubt the place will be disinfected now and the stable door closed...
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
    Mike's graph is about those folk who changed their vote away from Labour between 2017 and 2019. Even the relatively small number who shifted over Brexit don't say why. For at least some it may have been a move to LDs, SNP and Greens to a more clearly anti Brexit party, particularly so in London and SE. Swinson for all her failures did increase the LD popular vote from 8 to 12%.

    It does indicate that folk didn't like the Labour leadership, but not why. Mostly the novelty of Corbyn wore off as his toxicity and vacuity became clear.

    Worth noting too that Corbyns best performance was a hundred seats worse than Blairs worst performance.
    Bad as Corbyn was you have to go back to the 1970s to see Labour winning elections with one glaring exception - the one many Labour supporters and probably a big majority of members are wholly embarrassed by. But he was the only one who could take the public with him - the rest simply couldn't do it.
    Of course, Labour got over the finishing line just the once in four attempts in the 70s, and that only by a majority of 3. Labour's last working majority prior to He Who Shall Not Be Named was won 54 years ago - and Keir Starmer is going to need to outperform HWSNBN on Con-to-Lab swing in order to break that pattern.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
    Mike's graph is about those folk who changed their vote away from Labour between 2017 and 2019. Even the relatively small number who shifted over Brexit don't say why. For at least some it may have been a move to LDs, SNP and Greens to a more clearly anti Brexit party, particularly so in London and SE. Swinson for all her failures did increase the LD popular vote from 8 to 12%.

    It does indicate that folk didn't like the Labour leadership, but not why. Mostly the novelty of Corbyn wore off as his toxicity and vacuity became clear.

    Worth noting too that Corbyns best performance was a hundred seats worse than Blairs worst performance.
    Bad as Corbyn was you have to go back to the 1970s to see Labour winning elections with one glaring exception - the one many Labour supporters and probably a big majority of members are wholly embarrassed by. But he was the only one who could take the public with him - the rest simply couldn't do it.
    I joined the Labour Party in the mid nineties and voted New Labour in 1997 and 2001. I quit the party in 2003 because of 2 things: 1) the warmongering 2) the increased marketisation and privatisation of the NHS. With this it was not just the policy itself, but also that it was a betrayal of the 1997 pledge to abolish the internal market.

    Iraq hangs like an albatross around the neck of Blair, and was in many ways part of the rise of Corbyn.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    felix said:

    Old People's home in Almeria city in Spain has gone from 4 cases to 67 over this w/e - 20 of them staff. It's pretty extraordinary that this has happened after all that has gone before. However, some say the authorities have everything under control.....no doubt the place will be disinfected now and the stable door closed...

    We had a similar case in Leicester. An old peoples home that previously not had a case had a sudden outbreak in July, with nearly all residents infected and several deaths. This was before visiting was permitted. Complete biosecurity is very difficult to arrange.

    I note that Robert Trump died overnight, it is not known what from.
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,814

    FPT:


    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    It's no exaggeration to say the government could be brought down by the exams / grading fiasco. This is really serious, even more so than the Covid-19 situation itself IMO (although they're obviously related).

    Nah no chance.
    We'll see what happens. Just been listening to an interview with a student on Radio Five Live.
    Problem is, young people don't bother to vote.
    Parents do.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
    Mike's graph is about those folk who changed their vote away from Labour between 2017 and 2019. Even the relatively small number who shifted over Brexit don't say why. For at least some it may have been a move to LDs, SNP and Greens to a more clearly anti Brexit party, particularly so in London and SE. Swinson for all her failures did increase the LD popular vote from 8 to 12%.

    It does indicate that folk didn't like the Labour leadership, but not why. Mostly the novelty of Corbyn wore off as his toxicity and vacuity became clear.

    Worth noting too that Corbyns best performance was a hundred seats worse than Blairs worst performance.
    Bad as Corbyn was you have to go back to the 1970s to see Labour winning elections with one glaring exception - the one many Labour supporters and probably a big majority of members are wholly embarrassed by. But he was the only one who could take the public with him - the rest simply couldn't do it.
    I joined the Labour Party in the mid nineties and voted New Labour in 1997 and 2001. I quit the party in 2003 because of 2 things: 1) the warmongering 2) the increased marketisation and privatisation of the NHS. With this it was not just the policy itself, but also that it was a betrayal of the 1997 pledge to abolish the internal market.

    Iraq hangs like an albatross around the neck of Blair, and was in many ways part of the rise of Corbyn.
    Blair's Iraq policy is the epitome of an unforced error. Wilson was very sympathetic to LBJ on social policy, but kept his distance over Vietnam.
    The recent BBC2 series on Iraq showed what a disaster the aftermath of the invasion turned out to be. Saddam was evil personified, and deserved removal but the way the Americans conducted things after 'victory' will be in the textbooks as an example of how not to do things!
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Old People's home in Almeria city in Spain has gone from 4 cases to 67 over this w/e - 20 of them staff. It's pretty extraordinary that this has happened after all that has gone before. However, some say the authorities have everything under control.....no doubt the place will be disinfected now and the stable door closed...

    We had a similar case in Leicester. An old peoples home that previously not had a case had a sudden outbreak in July, with nearly all residents infected and several deaths. This was before visiting was permitted. Complete biosecurity is very difficult to arrange.

    I note that Robert Trump died overnight, it is not known what from.
    Re the Leicester case. Any agency staff involved?
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    No press report on the cause of death for Trump jnr. Any 'word on the street'? He had apparently been seriously ill for some time, though this too was reported little.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,987
    If Bielsa goes to Barcelona Leeds are going get fucked harder than a tory MP's research assistant.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Old People's home in Almeria city in Spain has gone from 4 cases to 67 over this w/e - 20 of them staff. It's pretty extraordinary that this has happened after all that has gone before. However, some say the authorities have everything under control.....no doubt the place will be disinfected now and the stable door closed...

    We had a similar case in Leicester. An old peoples home that previously not had a case had a sudden outbreak in July, with nearly all residents infected and several deaths. This was before visiting was permitted. Complete biosecurity is very difficult to arrange.

    I note that Robert Trump died overnight, it is not known what from.
    Re the Leicester case. Any agency staff involved?
    I don't know. Apparently the manager took some annual leave for a week and it happened then.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,885

    Yes but what of the other way round? Cummings is in the middle of a huge (but not much-reported) turf war and power grab from Whitehall to Number 10; as well as Brexit and the pandemic and now the exams stramash.

    If two or more of these go badly, will Cummings become a human shield for Boris? Will the party force Boris to ditch Cummings as the price of his own survival, like Theresa May was forced to axe Nick and Fiona after the 2017 election disaster (which imo was more the responsibility of Lynton Crosby)?

    This is the test of Cummings "Never backdown, never explain, never apologise" strategy.

    OfQual have been nobbled because they contradicted a statement by the minister.

    The government can't now fix this issue without sacking someone.

    Which is nice...
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592

    No press report on the cause of death for Trump jnr. Any 'word on the street'? He had apparently been seriously ill for some time, though this too was reported little.

    He has apparently been unwell for a few months, including a week in a neuro centre.
  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    Nigelb said:
    Morning all. I posted this last night but I will repeat it since it’s missing from this linked paper.

    Singapore has had +55k confirmed infections and only 27 deaths. There are only 83 still in hospital and all are said to be stable/improving with none in ICU. So Singapore’s CFR is < 0.1%.

    So why is that? We can hypothesise all we like about low viral loads due to mask wearing or cultural factors. But almost nowhere in APAC has been severely affected by covid, despite it being the area with the highest preponderance of travellers from inland mainland China.

    So why are studies like the linked one here ignoring that? Singapore really does have a very very low CFR. It’s possible it’s barely missed a case and we’ve missed millions in our estimates. And that everywhere has a CFR much less than 1%. But where are the cascades of deaths in the much larger Vietnam and Indonesia?

    Seems to me the background immunity theory has strong merit (from a previous corona outbreak?) and it just depends on how widespread it was in a given population that determines the severity of a cv-19 outbreak.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,097
    ydoethur said:

    A-levels -- what is the kremlinology of the downgrading fiasco?

    Good for Cummings and bad for the Blob, or bad for Cummings as the leading advocate of blind faith in weirdos and their algorithms?

    Bad for Cummings. He claims to be largely responsible for the current incarnation of OFQUAL and the DfE (although that isn’t strictly true) and it’s the botching of his reforms that are partly to blame for the current shambles (although not wholly - cf the devolved regions).

    Ultimately the blame for this fiasco will devolve on the government. They panicked and called off exams too early, then put in place a flawed replacement process, lied about what would happen, rejected expert advice warning them it wouldn’t work, failed to properly investigate their concerns instead working with an algorithm that when fed real data gave the wrong results, panicked and u-turned willy nilly when it became obvious nobody was buying their lies, and now appear to not even understand their own processes.

    Meanwhile, schools did what they were told. Hard to see how that can be held against them except insofar as the orders were dumb - but many of us were pointing that out at the time.

    I do not see how the exam regulators survive this. Teachers have known for years they were useless, but now everyone else knows it too. Their job is too maintain public confidence in assessments,’ and nobody with a brain has confidence in them to do that now.
    Why does everyone assume the exams situation is a fiasco or a mistake? The Tories have favoured their own people (private school pupils) while fucking over their enemies (state school pupils who want to go to university - surely the group least likely to be Tories), while their new supporters in the red wall (people who think university is for pinkos) don't care. I'm sure that Cummings views it as job done.
    If you don't understand that the Tories' entire raison d'etre is to halt social mobility, you're just not paying attention.
  • Options
    Foxy said:
    Interesting to see the Mail front page today with Priti Patel making clear France is not a safe country, thereby giving desperate refugees every reason to try to get to the UK from there.

  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    edited August 2020

    ydoethur said:

    A-levels -- what is the kremlinology of the downgrading fiasco?

    Good for Cummings and bad for the Blob, or bad for Cummings as the leading advocate of blind faith in weirdos and their algorithms?

    Bad for Cummings. He claims to be largely responsible for the current incarnation of OFQUAL and the DfE (although that isn’t strictly true) and it’s the botching of his reforms that are partly to blame for the current shambles (although not wholly - cf the devolved regions).

    Ultimately the blame for this fiasco will devolve on the government. They panicked and called off exams too early, then put in place a flawed replacement process, lied about what would happen, rejected expert advice warning them it wouldn’t work, failed to properly investigate their concerns instead working with an algorithm that when fed real data gave the wrong results, panicked and u-turned willy nilly when it became obvious nobody was buying their lies, and now appear to not even understand their own processes.

    Meanwhile, schools did what they were told. Hard to see how that can be held against them except insofar as the orders were dumb - but many of us were pointing that out at the time.

    I do not see how the exam regulators survive this. Teachers have known for years they were useless, but now everyone else knows it too. Their job is too maintain public confidence in assessments,’ and nobody with a brain has confidence in them to do that now.
    Why does everyone assume the exams situation is a fiasco or a mistake? The Tories have favoured their own people (private school pupils) while fucking over their enemies (state school pupils who want to go to university - surely the group least likely to be Tories), while their new supporters in the red wall (people who think university is for pinkos) don't care. I'm sure that Cummings views it as job done.
    If you don't understand that the Tories' entire raison d'etre is to halt social mobility, you're just not paying attention.
    Of course, everybody takes GCSEs, even in the purple wall*

    *Purple as it is contested electoral territory, it is no longer a red wall and neither is it a blue one.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited August 2020
    Foxy said:
    More likely to be Greek police of the islands, who are some of the least professional in the country, as the Sicilian police are in Italy, acting on their own steam, I think.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    No press report on the cause of death for Trump jnr. Any 'word on the street'? He had apparently been seriously ill for some time, though this too was reported little.

    He has apparently been unwell for a few months, including a week in a neuro centre.
    News Agencies are being very respectful in their avoidance of speculation.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,097

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
    Mike's graph is about those folk who changed their vote away from Labour between 2017 and 2019. Even the relatively small number who shifted over Brexit don't say why. For at least some it may have been a move to LDs, SNP and Greens to a more clearly anti Brexit party, particularly so in London and SE. Swinson for all her failures did increase the LD popular vote from 8 to 12%.

    It does indicate that folk didn't like the Labour leadership, but not why. Mostly the novelty of Corbyn wore off as his toxicity and vacuity became clear.

    Worth noting too that Corbyns best performance was a hundred seats worse than Blairs worst performance.
    Bad as Corbyn was you have to go back to the 1970s to see Labour winning elections with one glaring exception - the one many Labour supporters and probably a big majority of members are wholly embarrassed by. But he was the only one who could take the public with him - the rest simply couldn't do it.
    I joined the Labour Party in the mid nineties and voted New Labour in 1997 and 2001. I quit the party in 2003 because of 2 things: 1) the warmongering 2) the increased marketisation and privatisation of the NHS. With this it was not just the policy itself, but also that it was a betrayal of the 1997 pledge to abolish the internal market.

    Iraq hangs like an albatross around the neck of Blair, and was in many ways part of the rise of Corbyn.
    Blair's Iraq policy is the epitome of an unforced error. Wilson was very sympathetic to LBJ on social policy, but kept his distance over Vietnam.
    The recent BBC2 series on Iraq showed what a disaster the aftermath of the invasion turned out to be. Saddam was evil personified, and deserved removal but the way the Americans conducted things after 'victory' will be in the textbooks as an example of how not to do things!
    I was passionately opposed to the Iraq war at the time, but when you have the entire force of the US government pressing you to join them it's s stretch to call it an unforced error. The UK is a lot less powerful relative to the US than it was during Vietnam in military and diplomatic terms (and is even more reliant on the US now, of course, post Brexit). We could have stayed out of the Iraq misadventure, and should have, but the US would have punished us for it.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
    Mike's graph is about those folk who changed their vote away from Labour between 2017 and 2019. Even the relatively small number who shifted over Brexit don't say why. For at least some it may have been a move to LDs, SNP and Greens to a more clearly anti Brexit party, particularly so in London and SE. Swinson for all her failures did increase the LD popular vote from 8 to 12%.

    It does indicate that folk didn't like the Labour leadership, but not why. Mostly the novelty of Corbyn wore off as his toxicity and vacuity became clear.

    Worth noting too that Corbyns best performance was a hundred seats worse than Blairs worst performance.
    Bad as Corbyn was you have to go back to the 1970s to see Labour winning elections with one glaring exception - the one many Labour supporters and probably a big majority of members are wholly embarrassed by. But he was the only one who could take the public with him - the rest simply couldn't do it.
    I joined the Labour Party in the mid nineties and voted New Labour in 1997 and 2001. I quit the party in 2003 because of 2 things: 1) the warmongering 2) the increased marketisation and privatisation of the NHS. With this it was not just the policy itself, but also that it was a betrayal of the 1997 pledge to abolish the internal market.

    Iraq hangs like an albatross around the neck of Blair, and was in many ways part of the rise of Corbyn.
    Well, I wholly disagree with your beliefs but that is neither here nor there. The voters never really left Blair as such but many stopped voting Labour after he went. I suspect the members and voters may have deserted for largely different reasons - the latter because they tend to vote centre left or right in most elections and while the country as a whole has become much more socially liberal in the last 30 years on many issues they lean much more to the right economically and one issues relating to immigration. On Iraq - clearly massive mistakes were made afterwards but I don't miss Saddam Hussein.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    Ofqual: Anyone know what is going on?

    My hunch is that Williamson is annoyed that Ofqual`s announcement yesterday doesn`t honour his triple-lock pledge and he`s stuck his oar in.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592

    Foxy said:
    More likely to be Greek police of the islands, who are some of the least professional in the country, as the Sicilian police are in Italy, acting on their own steam, I think.
    Yes, I am sure it is unofficial.

    Some of my Greek colleagues have told similar tales of unofficial actions by Coastguard cutters.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    Trump`s younger brother has died.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited August 2020
    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
    Mike's graph is about those folk who changed their vote away from Labour between 2017 and 2019. Even the relatively small number who shifted over Brexit don't say why. For at least some it may have been a move to LDs, SNP and Greens to a more clearly anti Brexit party, particularly so in London and SE. Swinson for all her failures did increase the LD popular vote from 8 to 12%.

    It does indicate that folk didn't like the Labour leadership, but not why. Mostly the novelty of Corbyn wore off as his toxicity and vacuity became clear.

    Worth noting too that Corbyns best performance was a hundred seats worse than Blairs worst performance.
    Bad as Corbyn was you have to go back to the 1970s to see Labour winning elections with one glaring exception - the one many Labour supporters and probably a big majority of members are wholly embarrassed by. But he was the only one who could take the public with him - the rest simply couldn't do it.
    I joined the Labour Party in the mid nineties and voted New Labour in 1997 and 2001. I quit the party in 2003 because of 2 things: 1) the warmongering 2) the increased marketisation and privatisation of the NHS. With this it was not just the policy itself, but also that it was a betrayal of the 1997 pledge to abolish the internal market.

    Iraq hangs like an albatross around the neck of Blair, and was in many ways part of the rise of Corbyn.
    Well, I wholly disagree with your beliefs but that is neither here nor there. The voters never really left Blair as such but many stopped voting Labour after he went. I suspect the members and voters may have deserted for largely different reasons - the latter because they tend to vote centre left or right in most elections and while the country as a whole has become much more socially liberal in the last 30 years on many issues they lean much more to the right economically and one issues relating to immigration. On Iraq - clearly massive mistakes were made afterwards but I don't miss Saddam Hussein.
    I'm not sure I totally agree here. Blair did suffer big cumulative drops in support up to 2007. The drop in support began in 2000 when New Labour tried to manipulate the London mayoral election, continued in the 2005 election, and then accelerated in the polls after that.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Old People's home in Almeria city in Spain has gone from 4 cases to 67 over this w/e - 20 of them staff. It's pretty extraordinary that this has happened after all that has gone before. However, some say the authorities have everything under control.....no doubt the place will be disinfected now and the stable door closed...

    We had a similar case in Leicester. An old peoples home that previously not had a case had a sudden outbreak in July, with nearly all residents infected and several deaths. This was before visiting was permitted. Complete biosecurity is very difficult to arrange.

    I note that Robert Trump died overnight, it is not known what from.
    On the care home issue it still worries me that, knowing the problems regarding biosecurity and the huge vulnerability of the residents, that it all seems to be happening again. All we get are messages that all is under control and pictures of street cleaning - the latter seems to me largely a waste of scarce resources. On Spanish news today they showed a football being sprayed before a match yesterday! I mean, really, WTF!
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    ydoethur said:

    A-levels -- what is the kremlinology of the downgrading fiasco?

    Good for Cummings and bad for the Blob, or bad for Cummings as the leading advocate of blind faith in weirdos and their algorithms?

    Bad for Cummings. He claims to be largely responsible for the current incarnation of OFQUAL and the DfE (although that isn’t strictly true) and it’s the botching of his reforms that are partly to blame for the current shambles (although not wholly - cf the devolved regions).

    Ultimately the blame for this fiasco will devolve on the government. They panicked and called off exams too early, then put in place a flawed replacement process, lied about what would happen, rejected expert advice warning them it wouldn’t work, failed to properly investigate their concerns instead working with an algorithm that when fed real data gave the wrong results, panicked and u-turned willy nilly when it became obvious nobody was buying their lies, and now appear to not even understand their own processes.

    Meanwhile, schools did what they were told. Hard to see how that can be held against them except insofar as the orders were dumb - but many of us were pointing that out at the time.

    I do not see how the exam regulators survive this. Teachers have known for years they were useless, but now everyone else knows it too. Their job is too maintain public confidence in assessments,’ and nobody with a brain has confidence in them to do that now.
    Why does everyone assume the exams situation is a fiasco or a mistake? The Tories have favoured their own people (private school pupils) while fucking over their enemies (state school pupils who want to go to university - surely the group least likely to be Tories), while their new supporters in the red wall (people who think university is for pinkos) don't care. I'm sure that Cummings views it as job done.
    If you don't understand that the Tories' entire raison d'etre is to halt social mobility, you're just not paying attention.
    The state school pupils aiming for the top universities are most likely to be aspirational lower middle/upper working class.

    Those are slightly more likely to be Tory than the university educated middle classes who pay for private schools.

    So, yes, it is clearly a cockup.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,510
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    A-levels -- what is the kremlinology of the downgrading fiasco?

    Good for Cummings and bad for the Blob, or bad for Cummings as the leading advocate of blind faith in weirdos and their algorithms?

    Bad for Cummings. He claims to be largely responsible for the current incarnation of OFQUAL and the DfE (although that isn’t strictly true) and it’s the botching of his reforms that are partly to blame for the current shambles (although not wholly - cf the devolved regions).

    Ultimately the blame for this fiasco will devolve on the government. They panicked and called off exams too early, then put in place a flawed replacement process, lied about what would happen, rejected expert advice warning them it wouldn’t work, failed to properly investigate their concerns instead working with an algorithm that when fed real data gave the wrong results, panicked and u-turned willy nilly when it became obvious nobody was buying their lies, and now appear to not even understand their own processes.

    Meanwhile, schools did what they were told. Hard to see how that can be held against them except insofar as the orders were dumb - but many of us were pointing that out at the time.

    I do not see how the exam regulators survive this. Teachers have known for years they were useless, but now everyone else knows it too. Their job is too maintain public confidence in assessments,’ and nobody with a brain has confidence in them to do that now.
    Why does everyone assume the exams situation is a fiasco or a mistake? The Tories have favoured their own people (private school pupils) while fucking over their enemies (state school pupils who want to go to university - surely the group least likely to be Tories), while their new supporters in the red wall (people who think university is for pinkos) don't care. I'm sure that Cummings views it as job done.
    If you don't understand that the Tories' entire raison d'etre is to halt social mobility, you're just not paying attention.
    Of course, everybody takes GCSEs, even in the purple wall*

    *Purple as it is contested electoral territory, it is no longer a red wall and neither is it a blue one.
    And it’s no longer a wall, either.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Stocky said:

    Ofqual: Anyone know what is going on?

    Yes. They’re shit and don’t understand basic educational processes.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718

    Corbyn was electoral poison. The polls had been telling everyone that for a long, long time, so it’s no surprise that when Labour failed to listen the voters told us again - and this time at the ballot box.

    But it wasn’t just Corbyn himself. It was those he brought in to advise him, the ridiculously weak shadow cabinet, and the media outliers like Owen Jones, Aaron Bastani and Ash Sarkar all over the TV screens. If the Tories could have designed an opposition from scratch, it’s hard to think what they would have changed about Corbyn Labour.

    So now the party has a massive rebuild to go through. The one thing to remember is this: in the last internal Momentum election, held in the spring, 8,500 people voted. Keir Starmer was elected by 276,000 Labour members.

    The far-left is furious and it is very, very loud. But it is a rump.

    Good post - and thank`s for highlighting the role of three utter arseholes: Owen Jones, Aaron Bastani and Ash Sarkar.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Ofqual: Anyone know what is going on?

    Yes. They’re shit and don’t understand basic educational processes.
    Can`t believe I`ve woken up to this news - I actually slept well last night! First time in ages.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited August 2020
    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Ofqual: Anyone know what is going on?

    Yes. They’re shit and don’t understand basic educational processes.
    Can`t believe I`ve woken up to this news - I actually slept well last night! First time in ages.
    I am desperately sorry for all parents caught up in this - the likes of you, Scrapheap, Eek, RP. It’s bad enough for me, I hate to think what you’re going through.

    But I am afraid that the problem lies not with your daughter’s school, who from what you have said have done all the right things, but with OFQUAL and the government.

    They are amply and cruelly displaying how shite they are, and why they need removing and replacing.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
    Mike's graph is about those folk who changed their vote away from Labour between 2017 and 2019. Even the relatively small number who shifted over Brexit don't say why. For at least some it may have been a move to LDs, SNP and Greens to a more clearly anti Brexit party, particularly so in London and SE. Swinson for all her failures did increase the LD popular vote from 8 to 12%.

    It does indicate that folk didn't like the Labour leadership, but not why. Mostly the novelty of Corbyn wore off as his toxicity and vacuity became clear.

    Worth noting too that Corbyns best performance was a hundred seats worse than Blairs worst performance.
    Bad as Corbyn was you have to go back to the 1970s to see Labour winning elections with one glaring exception - the one many Labour supporters and probably a big majority of members are wholly embarrassed by. But he was the only one who could take the public with him - the rest simply couldn't do it.
    I joined the Labour Party in the mid nineties and voted New Labour in 1997 and 2001. I quit the party in 2003 because of 2 things: 1) the warmongering 2) the increased marketisation and privatisation of the NHS. With this it was not just the policy itself, but also that it was a betrayal of the 1997 pledge to abolish the internal market.

    Iraq hangs like an albatross around the neck of Blair, and was in many ways part of the rise of Corbyn.
    Well, I wholly disagree with your beliefs but that is neither here nor there. The voters never really left Blair as such but many stopped voting Labour after he went. I suspect the members and voters may have deserted for largely different reasons - the latter because they tend to vote centre left or right in most elections and while the country as a whole has become much more socially liberal in the last 30 years on many issues they lean much more to the right economically and one issues relating to immigration. On Iraq - clearly massive mistakes were made afterwards but I don't miss Saddam Hussein.
    I'm not sure I totally agree here. Blair did suffer big cumulative drops in support up to 2007. The drop in support began in 2000 when New Labour tried to manipulate the London mayoral election, continued in the 2005 election, and then accelerated in the polls after that.
    Fair point but the majorities remained very secure - maybe these were more left-wing voters drifting away while the centrists stayed loyal? So the ultra safe seats just had smaller majorities. Once Blair was gone the centre returned to the Tories.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Foxy said:
    Interesting to see the Mail front page today with Priti Patel making clear France is not a safe country, thereby giving desperate refugees every reason to try to get to the UK from there.
    I doubt that many of the boat people have heard of Priti Patel, let alone that they need her encouragement to board their leaky dinghies. In any event, the issue of migrants willing to dice with death in order to escape the horrors of France significantly predates her tenure.

    Given how frequently we are told that England is a robber capitalist, racist hellhole, it does make it hard for one to imagine just how terrible France must be for anyone to want to leave it to come here. Perhaps we should all congratulate the Home Secretary for her courage in revealing this to us?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,137
    ydoethur said:

    A-levels -- what is the kremlinology of the downgrading fiasco?

    Good for Cummings and bad for the Blob, or bad for Cummings as the leading advocate of blind faith in weirdos and their algorithms?

    Bad for Cummings. He claims to be largely responsible for the current incarnation of OFQUAL and the DfE (although that isn’t strictly true) and it’s the botching of his reforms that are partly to blame for the current shambles (although not wholly - cf the devolved regions).

    Ultimately the blame for this fiasco will devolve on the government. They panicked and called off exams too early, then put in place a flawed replacement process, lied about what would happen, rejected expert advice warning them it wouldn’t work, failed to properly investigate their concerns instead working with an algorithm that when fed real data gave the wrong results, panicked and u-turned willy nilly when it became obvious nobody was buying their lies, and now appear to not even understand their own processes.

    Meanwhile, schools did what they were told. Hard to see how that can be held against them except insofar as the orders were dumb - but many of us were pointing that out at the time.

    I do not see how the exam regulators survive this. Teachers have known for years they were useless, but now everyone else knows it too. Their job is too maintain public confidence in assessments,’ and nobody with a brain has confidence in them to do that now.
    Politically, this can go away in England by some high level sackings at the awarding bodies and the regulator.

    I don't see any long term damage to key Government people. Johnson was on holiday so he will claim it had nothing to do with him. Williamson can claim he inherited a flawed system. No one remembers it was Cummings and Gove who broke the system.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,510
    moonshine said:

    Nigelb said:
    Morning all. I posted this last night but I will repeat it since it’s missing from this linked paper.

    Singapore has had +55k confirmed infections and only 27 deaths. There are only 83 still in hospital and all are said to be stable/improving with none in ICU. So Singapore’s CFR is < 0.1%.

    So why is that? We can hypothesise all we like about low viral loads due to mask wearing or cultural factors. But almost nowhere in APAC has been severely affected by covid, despite it being the area with the highest preponderance of travellers from inland mainland China.

    So why are studies like the linked one here ignoring that? Singapore really does have a very very low CFR. It’s possible it’s barely missed a case and we’ve missed millions in our estimates. And that everywhere has a CFR much less than 1%. But where are the cascades of deaths in the much larger Vietnam and Indonesia?

    Seems to me the background immunity theory has strong merit (from a previous corona outbreak?) and it just depends on how widespread it was in a given population that determines the severity of a cv-19 outbreak.
    Without a recent detailed country study (which I’ve not been able to find), it’s hard to say.
    What is the age profile of their infected ? All I can find is a note on wikipedia that the “vast majority” of infections has been in migrant worker dorms,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Singapore
    FWIW, they are almost certain to be under 60, and most considerably younger.

    The IFR in China has been nowhere near as low.
  • Options
    I see the next part of the government’s levelling up agenda is to find ways to throw more money at Dido Harding.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Ofqual: Anyone know what is going on?

    Yes. They’re shit and don’t understand basic educational processes.
    Can`t believe I`ve woken up to this news - I actually slept well last night! First time in ages.
    I am desperately sorry for all parents caught up in this - the likes of you, Scrapheap, Eek, RP. It’s bad enough for me, I hate to think what you’re going through.

    But I am afraid that the problem lies not with your daughter’s school, who from what you have said have done all the right things, but with OFQUAL and the government.

    They are amply and cruelly displaying how shite they are, and why they need removing and replacing.
    At bottom, though, they are trying to get to an outcome which mirrors overall gradings from previous years to maintain the integrity of this year`s results and are seeking the input of teachers as to which pupil, in their opinion, would have got the highest grades, by league, top to bottom.

    What else could they have done?

    I`m concerned about the decision Scotland has made, but seems to me that the rest of the UK has no option but to follow it.

    It irritates me, I must admit, that the clever kids who didn`t try in their mocks because they were lazy and complacent could get away with this and come out with top grades just because their teachers think that`s they would have got top grades if they sat the exam because they are clever.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Scott_xP said:

    Yes but what of the other way round? Cummings is in the middle of a huge (but not much-reported) turf war and power grab from Whitehall to Number 10; as well as Brexit and the pandemic and now the exams stramash.

    If two or more of these go badly, will Cummings become a human shield for Boris? Will the party force Boris to ditch Cummings as the price of his own survival, like Theresa May was forced to axe Nick and Fiona after the 2017 election disaster (which imo was more the responsibility of Lynton Crosby)?

    This is the test of Cummings "Never backdown, never explain, never apologise" strategy.

    OfQual have been nobbled because they contradicted a statement by the minister.

    The government can't now fix this issue.

    Which is nice...
    FTFY

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    ydoethur said:

    A-levels -- what is the kremlinology of the downgrading fiasco?

    Good for Cummings and bad for the Blob, or bad for Cummings as the leading advocate of blind faith in weirdos and their algorithms?

    Bad for Cummings. He claims to be largely responsible for the current incarnation of OFQUAL and the DfE (although that isn’t strictly true) and it’s the botching of his reforms that are partly to blame for the current shambles (although not wholly - cf the devolved regions).

    Ultimately the blame for this fiasco will devolve on the government. They panicked and called off exams too early, then put in place a flawed replacement process, lied about what would happen, rejected expert advice warning them it wouldn’t work, failed to properly investigate their concerns instead working with an algorithm that when fed real data gave the wrong results, panicked and u-turned willy nilly when it became obvious nobody was buying their lies, and now appear to not even understand their own processes.

    Meanwhile, schools did what they were told. Hard to see how that can be held against them except insofar as the orders were dumb - but many of us were pointing that out at the time.

    I do not see how the exam regulators survive this. Teachers have known for years they were useless, but now everyone else knows it too. Their job is too maintain public confidence in assessments,’ and nobody with a brain has confidence in them to do that now.
    Politically, this can go away in England by some high level sackings at the awarding bodies and the regulator.

    I don't see any long term damage to key Government people. Johnson was on holiday so he will claim it had nothing to do with him. Williamson can claim he inherited a flawed system. No one remembers it was Cummings and Gove who broke the system.
    No. It goes beyond that. The system has demonstrated it is fundamentally flawed. Civil Servants of low grade should not be running exams.

    This has got to lead to fundamental reform if anyone is to have confidence in the exam systems.

    The only problem is nobody in government has either the imagination or executive ability to carry such reform through. And worse, some think they do and are wrong.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Ofqual: Anyone know what is going on?

    Yes. They’re shit and don’t understand basic educational processes.
    Can`t believe I`ve woken up to this news - I actually slept well last night! First time in ages.
    I am desperately sorry for all parents caught up in this - the likes of you, Scrapheap, Eek, RP. It’s bad enough for me, I hate to think what you’re going through.

    But I am afraid that the problem lies not with your daughter’s school, who from what you have said have done all the right things, but with OFQUAL and the government.

    They are amply and cruelly displaying how shite they are, and why they need removing and replacing.
    The levels of incompetence really are spellbinding. To be treating young people in this way - unless they are privately educated, of course - shows just how much contempt the government has for them and reveals levelling up to be no more than a clever electoral slogan. If Cummings were serious about it, he would not be doing what he is.

  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,137

    I see the next part of the government’s levelling up agenda is to find ways to throw more money at Dido Harding.

    How and why? She really is the personification of useless.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Ofqual: Anyone know what is going on?

    Yes. They’re shit and don’t understand basic educational processes.
    Can`t believe I`ve woken up to this news - I actually slept well last night! First time in ages.
    I am desperately sorry for all parents caught up in this - the likes of you, Scrapheap, Eek, RP. It’s bad enough for me, I hate to think what you’re going through.

    But I am afraid that the problem lies not with your daughter’s school, who from what you have said have done all the right things, but with OFQUAL and the government.

    They are amply and cruelly displaying how shite they are, and why they need removing and replacing.
    At bottom, though, they are trying to get to an outcome which mirrors overall gradings from previous years to maintain the integrity of this year`s results and are seeking the input of teachers as to which pupil, in their opinion, would have got the highest grades, by league, top to bottom.

    What else could they have done?
    Well, for a start, they should not have pretended that this algorithm led to fair outcomes when they knew it didn’t.

    Yes, they were in a tough spot, but they have made the wrong call at every turn. Which raises alarming questions about their knowledge and judgement.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,023
    edited August 2020
    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
    Mike's graph is about those folk who changed their vote away from Labour between 2017 and 2019. Even the relatively small number who shifted over Brexit don't say why. For at least some it may have been a move to LDs, SNP and Greens to a more clearly anti Brexit party, particularly so in London and SE. Swinson for all her failures did increase the LD popular vote from 8 to 12%.

    It does indicate that folk didn't like the Labour leadership, but not why. Mostly the novelty of Corbyn wore off as his toxicity and vacuity became clear.

    Worth noting too that Corbyns best performance was a hundred seats worse than Blairs worst performance.
    Bad as Corbyn was you have to go back to the 1970s to see Labour winning elections with one glaring exception - the one many Labour supporters and probably a big majority of members are wholly embarrassed by. But he was the only one who could take the public with him - the rest simply couldn't do it.
    I joined the Labour Party in the mid nineties and voted New Labour in 1997 and 2001. I quit the party in 2003 because of 2 things: 1) the warmongering 2) the increased marketisation and privatisation of the NHS. With this it was not just the policy itself, but also that it was a betrayal of the 1997 pledge to abolish the internal market.

    Iraq hangs like an albatross around the neck of Blair, and was in many ways part of the rise of Corbyn.
    Well, I wholly disagree with your beliefs but that is neither here nor there. The voters never really left Blair as such but many stopped voting Labour after he went. I suspect the members and voters may have deserted for largely different reasons - the latter because they tend to vote centre left or right in most elections and while the country as a whole has become much more socially liberal in the last 30 years on many issues they lean much more to the right economically and one issues relating to immigration. On Iraq - clearly massive mistakes were made afterwards but I don't miss Saddam Hussein.
    I don't know if you've watched Once Upon a Time in Iraq (everyone should I think) but there's a strand going going through it suggesting that the massive, massive mistakes made afterwards negated any benefits from Saddam being removed. Some Iraqis who detested Saddam and lost family to him, hate the US (and presumably us) even more for the way we comprehensively fcuked their country.

    Of course a decent chunk of voters stopped voting Labour while Blair was still around (4m in eight years). Ed got almost as many votes in 2015 as TB did in 2005, and Corbyn more in both 2017 and 2019. It's interesting to consider if Blair could have bullshitted his way out of the great financial crash if he'd stuck around, the trajectory of his vote winning ways suggests not.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Ofqual: Anyone know what is going on?

    Yes. They’re shit and don’t understand basic educational processes.
    Can`t believe I`ve woken up to this news - I actually slept well last night! First time in ages.
    I am desperately sorry for all parents caught up in this - the likes of you, Scrapheap, Eek, RP. It’s bad enough for me, I hate to think what you’re going through.

    But I am afraid that the problem lies not with your daughter’s school, who from what you have said have done all the right things, but with OFQUAL and the government.

    They are amply and cruelly displaying how shite they are, and why they need removing and replacing.
    The levels of incompetence really are spellbinding. To be treating young people in this way - unless they are privately educated, of course - shows just how much contempt the government has for them and reveals levelling up to be no more than a clever electoral slogan. If Cummings were serious about it, he would not be doing what he is.

    These jibes at privately educated children are getting a bit tiresome, to be honest. My daughter goes to a private school and I can assure you they these pupils - and their parents - are as concerned as anyone.
  • Options

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
    Mike's graph is about those folk who changed their vote away from Labour between 2017 and 2019. Even the relatively small number who shifted over Brexit don't say why. For at least some it may have been a move to LDs, SNP and Greens to a more clearly anti Brexit party, particularly so in London and SE. Swinson for all her failures did increase the LD popular vote from 8 to 12%.

    It does indicate that folk didn't like the Labour leadership, but not why. Mostly the novelty of Corbyn wore off as his toxicity and vacuity became clear.

    Worth noting too that Corbyns best performance was a hundred seats worse than Blairs worst performance.
    Bad as Corbyn was you have to go back to the 1970s to see Labour winning elections with one glaring exception - the one many Labour supporters and probably a big majority of members are wholly embarrassed by. But he was the only one who could take the public with him - the rest simply couldn't do it.
    I joined the Labour Party in the mid nineties and voted New Labour in 1997 and 2001. I quit the party in 2003 because of 2 things: 1) the warmongering 2) the increased marketisation and privatisation of the NHS. With this it was not just the policy itself, but also that it was a betrayal of the 1997 pledge to abolish the internal market.

    Iraq hangs like an albatross around the neck of Blair, and was in many ways part of the rise of Corbyn.
    Blair's Iraq policy is the epitome of an unforced error. Wilson was very sympathetic to LBJ on social policy, but kept his distance over Vietnam.
    The recent BBC2 series on Iraq showed what a disaster the aftermath of the invasion turned out to be. Saddam was evil personified, and deserved removal but the way the Americans conducted things after 'victory' will be in the textbooks as an example of how not to do things!
    I was passionately opposed to the Iraq war at the time, but when you have the entire force of the US government pressing you to join them it's s stretch to call it an unforced error. The UK is a lot less powerful relative to the US than it was during Vietnam in military and diplomatic terms (and is even more reliant on the US now, of course, post Brexit). We could have stayed out of the Iraq misadventure, and should have, but the US would have punished us for it.
    Untrue. President Bush offered Blair a way out.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2006/apr/23/uk.iraq
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    So I had a pretty major complication with my surgery - a clipped artery causing major bleeding - so had to go back into theatre. Luckily it looks to be all sorted now so I’m on the mend. 👍

    Good luck
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,988

    Foxy said:

    No press report on the cause of death for Trump jnr. Any 'word on the street'? He had apparently been seriously ill for some time, though this too was reported little.

    He has apparently been unwell for a few months, including a week in a neuro centre.
    News Agencies are being very respectful in their avoidance of speculation.
    I read he was on blood thinners and suffered bleeding in the brain. I can't find the link. I think It was the NYT.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Ofqual: Anyone know what is going on?

    Yes. They’re shit and don’t understand basic educational processes.
    Can`t believe I`ve woken up to this news - I actually slept well last night! First time in ages.
    I am desperately sorry for all parents caught up in this - the likes of you, Scrapheap, Eek, RP. It’s bad enough for me, I hate to think what you’re going through.

    But I am afraid that the problem lies not with your daughter’s school, who from what you have said have done all the right things, but with OFQUAL and the government.

    They are amply and cruelly displaying how shite they are, and why they need removing and replacing.
    At bottom, though, they are trying to get to an outcome which mirrors overall gradings from previous years to maintain the integrity of this year`s results and are seeking the input of teachers as to which pupil, in their opinion, would have got the highest grades, by league, top to bottom.

    What else could they have done?
    Well, for a start, they should not have pretended that this algorithm led to fair outcomes when they knew it didn’t.

    Yes, they were in a tough spot, but they have made the wrong call at every turn. Which raises alarming questions about their knowledge and judgement.
    Apparently some of the league tables will make, er, "interesting" reading. Pretty poor private schools catapulted into the top rank of country's schools etc etc
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,885
    Stocky said:

    I`m concerned about the decision Scotland has made, but seems to me that the rest of the UK has no option but to follow it.

    Only if Williamson also goes.

    In The Times today

    Gavin Williamson, England’s education secretary, has angered Scottish ministers by accusing them of “degrading” this year’s exam results.

    He rejected criticism of his approach and told The Times yesterday that moving to a system like Scotland’s, based on predictions, would be unwise. “In Scotland you’ve got a system where there aren’t any controls; you’ve got rampant grade inflation,” he said. “There’s been no checks and balances in that system; it degrades every single grade.

    “If we see one year where you see the grade distributions so distorted and so changed, then actually the value and worth of what those grades are is damaged as a result.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/gavin-williamson-scotland-has-degraded-its-exam-results-xfgvwkxck
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    The headline finding is almost useless in and of itself. The question should be: what changed since 2017?

    The robotic Theresa was replaced by Boris the showman and Corbyn's 2019 manifesto was an uncoordinated shambles.
    Yes, both those points are correct. However, neither is the same as saying the problem was Corbyn personally, which was what the polls found. (So that raises another question: were poll respondents blaming Corbyn as shorthand for one of these other factors?)
    I think it was a gestalt of factors rather than a single one. Boris looked better than TMay, in 2019 Corbyn was a proven election loser thanks to 2017, the British public has never liked Marxism since the 1970s and Corbyn put a lot of Marxists in post giving the Tories easy targets to attack.

    Corbyn also showed almost zero interest in any current political topic of the time and was apparently more interested in preparing for the socialist utopia to come instead of offering an alternative to the govt of the day.

    Come 2019 and what was on offer to the electorate? Nothing that was going to make their lives better.
    I sort-of agree about there being multiple factors but that is not what the polls in OGH's header found. I think the polls are at best misleading and probably just wrong.
    OGH's graph in the header suggests that Labour was more disliked than Brexit, but Brexit was a fact whereas Corbyn was a possibility so not really comparable IMO
    Mike's graph is about those folk who changed their vote away from Labour between 2017 and 2019. Even the relatively small number who shifted over Brexit don't say why. For at least some it may have been a move to LDs, SNP and Greens to a more clearly anti Brexit party, particularly so in London and SE. Swinson for all her failures did increase the LD popular vote from 8 to 12%.

    It does indicate that folk didn't like the Labour leadership, but not why. Mostly the novelty of Corbyn wore off as his toxicity and vacuity became clear.

    Worth noting too that Corbyns best performance was a hundred seats worse than Blairs worst performance.
    Bad as Corbyn was you have to go back to the 1970s to see Labour winning elections with one glaring exception - the one many Labour supporters and probably a big majority of members are wholly embarrassed by. But he was the only one who could take the public with him - the rest simply couldn't do it.
    I joined the Labour Party in the mid nineties and voted New Labour in 1997 and 2001. I quit the party in 2003 because of 2 things: 1) the warmongering 2) the increased marketisation and privatisation of the NHS. With this it was not just the policy itself, but also that it was a betrayal of the 1997 pledge to abolish the internal market.

    Iraq hangs like an albatross around the neck of Blair, and was in many ways part of the rise of Corbyn.
    Blair's Iraq policy is the epitome of an unforced error. Wilson was very sympathetic to LBJ on social policy, but kept his distance over Vietnam.
    The recent BBC2 series on Iraq showed what a disaster the aftermath of the invasion turned out to be. Saddam was evil personified, and deserved removal but the way the Americans conducted things after 'victory' will be in the textbooks as an example of how not to do things!
    I was passionately opposed to the Iraq war at the time, but when you have the entire force of the US government pressing you to join them it's s stretch to call it an unforced error. The UK is a lot less powerful relative to the US than it was during Vietnam in military and diplomatic terms (and is even more reliant on the US now, of course, post Brexit). We could have stayed out of the Iraq misadventure, and should have, but the US would have punished us for it.
    Untrue. President Bush offered Blair a way out.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2006/apr/23/uk.iraq
    I've never thought Blair's policy was based around fear of US punishment. He thought that the World would be a much more dangerous place if US was completely isolated (but went ahead anyway), and thought that by offering complete support that wouldn't happen.
  • Options
    OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,097
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A-levels -- what is the kremlinology of the downgrading fiasco?

    Good for Cummings and bad for the Blob, or bad for Cummings as the leading advocate of blind faith in weirdos and their algorithms?

    Bad for Cummings. He claims to be largely responsible for the current incarnation of OFQUAL and the DfE (although that isn’t strictly true) and it’s the botching of his reforms that are partly to blame for the current shambles (although not wholly - cf the devolved regions).

    Ultimately the blame for this fiasco will devolve on the government. They panicked and called off exams too early, then put in place a flawed replacement process, lied about what would happen, rejected expert advice warning them it wouldn’t work, failed to properly investigate their concerns instead working with an algorithm that when fed real data gave the wrong results, panicked and u-turned willy nilly when it became obvious nobody was buying their lies, and now appear to not even understand their own processes.

    Meanwhile, schools did what they were told. Hard to see how that can be held against them except insofar as the orders were dumb - but many of us were pointing that out at the time.

    I do not see how the exam regulators survive this. Teachers have known for years they were useless, but now everyone else knows it too. Their job is too maintain public confidence in assessments,’ and nobody with a brain has confidence in them to do that now.
    Why does everyone assume the exams situation is a fiasco or a mistake? The Tories have favoured their own people (private school pupils) while fucking over their enemies (state school pupils who want to go to university - surely the group least likely to be Tories), while their new supporters in the red wall (people who think university is for pinkos) don't care. I'm sure that Cummings views it as job done.
    If you don't understand that the Tories' entire raison d'etre is to halt social mobility, you're just not paying attention.
    The state school pupils aiming for the top universities are most likely to be aspirational lower middle/upper working class.

    Those are slightly more likely to be Tory than the university educated middle classes who pay for private schools.

    So, yes, it is clearly a cockup.
    I doubt that. Most state school kids who go to university are middle class, kids of teachers and other professionals. And a lot of aspirant working class kids are from minorities, not big Tory voters. People who go private skew massively Tory.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Scott_xP said:
    And he’s been saying it for weeks.

    And he’s not wrong.

    Given that his own judgement is to put it mildly not all it might be, the fact that he sees so much more clearly than OFQUAL on this suggests they have an alarming level of complacency or ignorance about their operations.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited August 2020

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A-levels -- what is the kremlinology of the downgrading fiasco?

    Good for Cummings and bad for the Blob, or bad for Cummings as the leading advocate of blind faith in weirdos and their algorithms?

    Bad for Cummings. He claims to be largely responsible for the current incarnation of OFQUAL and the DfE (although that isn’t strictly true) and it’s the botching of his reforms that are partly to blame for the current shambles (although not wholly - cf the devolved regions).

    Ultimately the blame for this fiasco will devolve on the government. They panicked and called off exams too early, then put in place a flawed replacement process, lied about what would happen, rejected expert advice warning them it wouldn’t work, failed to properly investigate their concerns instead working with an algorithm that when fed real data gave the wrong results, panicked and u-turned willy nilly when it became obvious nobody was buying their lies, and now appear to not even understand their own processes.

    Meanwhile, schools did what they were told. Hard to see how that can be held against them except insofar as the orders were dumb - but many of us were pointing that out at the time.

    I do not see how the exam regulators survive this. Teachers have known for years they were useless, but now everyone else knows it too. Their job is too maintain public confidence in assessments,’ and nobody with a brain has confidence in them to do that now.
    Why does everyone assume the exams situation is a fiasco or a mistake? The Tories have favoured their own people (private school pupils) while fucking over their enemies (state school pupils who want to go to university - surely the group least likely to be Tories), while their new supporters in the red wall (people who think university is for pinkos) don't care. I'm sure that Cummings views it as job done.
    If you don't understand that the Tories' entire raison d'etre is to halt social mobility, you're just not paying attention.
    The state school pupils aiming for the top universities are most likely to be aspirational lower middle/upper working class.

    Those are slightly more likely to be Tory than the university educated middle classes who pay for private schools.

    So, yes, it is clearly a cockup.
    I doubt that. Most state school kids who go to university are middle class, kids of teachers and other professionals. And a lot of aspirant working class kids are from minorities, not big Tory voters. People who go private skew massively Tory.
    There's a bit of a Venn diagram issue on this one between pro/anti-Tory, and pro/anti Brexit. There is a tendency to conflate one with the other in assuming that all remainers are anti-Tory. They may be furious with the Tory party over Brexit, but all there base political instincts haven't changed.
  • Options
    Stocky said:

    Corbyn was electoral poison. The polls had been telling everyone that for a long, long time, so it’s no surprise that when Labour failed to listen the voters told us again - and this time at the ballot box.

    But it wasn’t just Corbyn himself. It was those he brought in to advise him, the ridiculously weak shadow cabinet, and the media outliers like Owen Jones, Aaron Bastani and Ash Sarkar all over the TV screens. If the Tories could have designed an opposition from scratch, it’s hard to think what they would have changed about Corbyn Labour.

    So now the party has a massive rebuild to go through. The one thing to remember is this: in the last internal Momentum election, held in the spring, 8,500 people voted. Keir Starmer was elected by 276,000 Labour members.

    The far-left is furious and it is very, very loud. But it is a rump.

    Good post - and thank`s for highlighting the role of three utter arseholes: Owen Jones, Aaron Bastani and Ash Sarkar.
    Although I voted labour and wanted a labour govt the YouTube video of Bastani, Sarkar and another Novara clown waiting for, then seeing the result of,the exit poll is priceless.
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    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Ofqual: Anyone know what is going on?

    Yes. They’re shit and don’t understand basic educational processes.
    Can`t believe I`ve woken up to this news - I actually slept well last night! First time in ages.
    I am desperately sorry for all parents caught up in this - the likes of you, Scrapheap, Eek, RP. It’s bad enough for me, I hate to think what you’re going through.

    But I am afraid that the problem lies not with your daughter’s school, who from what you have said have done all the right things, but with OFQUAL and the government.

    They are amply and cruelly displaying how shite they are, and why they need removing and replacing.
    The levels of incompetence really are spellbinding. To be treating young people in this way - unless they are privately educated, of course - shows just how much contempt the government has for them and reveals levelling up to be no more than a clever electoral slogan. If Cummings were serious about it, he would not be doing what he is.

    These jibes at privately educated children are getting a bit tiresome, to be honest. My daughter goes to a private school and I can assure you they these pupils - and their parents - are as concerned as anyone.
    The fact is that privately educated kids have not been downgraded in the way state school pupils have. That’s not their fault, but it’s what has happened. It’s not levelling up. A government that cared about such an agenda would have spotted the issue and done all it could to mitigate it. But Boris Johnson put Gavin Williamson in charge of education, which tells you exactly what priority he gives it.

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    eekeek Posts: 24,958
    edited August 2020
    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Ofqual: Anyone know what is going on?

    Yes. They’re shit and don’t understand basic educational processes.
    Can`t believe I`ve woken up to this news - I actually slept well last night! First time in ages.
    I am desperately sorry for all parents caught up in this - the likes of you, Scrapheap, Eek, RP. It’s bad enough for me, I hate to think what you’re going through.

    But I am afraid that the problem lies not with your daughter’s school, who from what you have said have done all the right things, but with OFQUAL and the government.

    They are amply and cruelly displaying how shite they are, and why they need removing and replacing.
    The levels of incompetence really are spellbinding. To be treating young people in this way - unless they are privately educated, of course - shows just how much contempt the government has for them and reveals levelling up to be no more than a clever electoral slogan. If Cummings were serious about it, he would not be doing what he is.

    These jibes at privately educated children are getting a bit tiresome, to be honest. My daughter goes to a private school and I can assure you they these pupils - and their parents - are as concerned as anyone.
    Well that explains your bias.

    Simply put all the issue relates to how OFQUAL handle small cohorts where statistical estimates completely falls apart (which mainly occur in private schools who have done very well out of this).
    what then screwed everything (and everyone else) up was that statistical analysis was used to identify appropriate grades after a whole set of A grades has been rendered untouchable. Leaving the larger cohorts suffering the reductions...

    And yes, no result here would have been perfect but this solution introduced a bias towards private schools because they saw an obvious problem and fixed it but didn't see the immediate (and far bigger) flaw that fixing the initial problem created.

    But hey experts aren't to be trusted...
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,137

    Corbyn was electoral poison. The polls had been telling everyone that for a long, long time, so it’s no surprise that when Labour failed to listen the voters told us again - and this time at the ballot box.

    But it wasn’t just Corbyn himself. It was those he brought in to advise him, the ridiculously weak shadow cabinet, and the media outliers like Owen Jones, Aaron Bastani and Ash Sarkar all over the TV screens. If the Tories could have designed an opposition from scratch, it’s hard to think what they would have changed about Corbyn Labour.

    So now the party has a massive rebuild to go through. The one thing to remember is this: in the last internal Momentum election, held in the spring, 8,500 people voted. Keir Starmer was elected by 276,000 Labour members.

    The far-left is furious and it is very, very loud. But it is a rump.

    An old picture of Derek Robinson standing on a wooden box, megaphone in hand, shouting nonsense at a few hundred like minded militants sums it all up for me. That was Corbyn forty years on, preaching to the converted.

    I don't know much about Bastani's background, but the working class warriors that are Jones and Sarkar have never had to do a day's graft in their lives.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Old People's home in Almeria city in Spain has gone from 4 cases to 67 over this w/e - 20 of them staff. It's pretty extraordinary that this has happened after all that has gone before. However, some say the authorities have everything under control.....no doubt the place will be disinfected now and the stable door closed...

    We had a similar case in Leicester. An old peoples home that previously not had a case had a sudden outbreak in July, with nearly all residents infected and several deaths. This was before visiting was permitted. Complete biosecurity is very difficult to arrange.

    I note that Robert Trump died overnight, it is not known what from.
    Re the Leicester case. Any agency staff involved?
    I don't know. Apparently the manager took some annual leave for a week and it happened then.
    Hmm. Cases identified at the end of the week? When the manager came back?
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