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  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Yes strikingly similar stories.

    And in both cases following the demise of the talented but vulnerable founding member the bands went on to enormous commercial success.
    I used to be a big fan of early Floyd ft Syd, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, but now it sounds like absolute nonsense. Peter Green, in contrast, was a serious musician, and his music with Fleetwood Mac still sounds fantastic today
    Barrett wrote some interesting songs, the very best of them - from his solo album - have a poetically uncanny quality.

    He's still a bit of a folk hero to me, maybe because of his madness.

    But the band was definitely and hugely improved by his leaving, and Gilmour joining. Only that band could have made Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    rcs1000 said:

    That doesn't really sound like much of a scandal.
    St. Jeremy would never have taken the shilling from the dark side.

    Certainly not when there was paymaster Len on hand anyway
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    But those are not new factors compared with 2019 - and by 2024 Brexit is likely to be a peripheral issue.
    Well, Starmer isn’t racist. So any people with latent racist tendencies may feel awkward about voting for him.

    It was OK with Corbyn.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disappointing. I would have thought most people are exercising more than before.

    "The public has been snacking more in lockdown and, despite increases in sales of bikes and exercise equipment, overall activity levels appear to have dropped compared to before the pandemic"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-24/experts-warn-over-huge-risk-of-covid-death-in-obese-people-as-gyms-reopen

    But not at all surprising. There will have been a lot of boredom and anxiety eating going on during this period, and the proportion of gym users who've taken up outdoor exercise will be well short of 100%, despite the fact that we've had a lot of good weather.

    This period of enforced inactivity - the prolonged closure of leisure facilities, and prohibition of sports - will likely have undone many years of effort to get the population more active, just as many people have also developed serious chocolate biscuit fixations. Alas, good habits are often as easy to lose as bad habits are hard to give up.
    I've been doing a decent amount of exercise. Ran so many daily 5ks my knee started to protest. Got back into biking which I've pushed further and further - rode from Thornaby just south of the Tees to Newcastle yesterday. Monster ride. Epic.

    But I am depressed and working from home. Which makes snacky goodness not just possible but essential. A weekly beer night. With some midweek wee dram action. OK so I've finally decided that self medication isn't working and need professional attention. But weight management isn't exactly a priority at the moment.
    Sympathies and although I do respect your earnest endeavours to comply with guidance , if it is making you depressed and you want to do something to make you happier I would just do it and sod the covid -19 overregulations
    The last few days of having to wear a mask isn't making me depressed. As for sod it, isn't that how we have ended up in this mess with 20k dead who needn't have been?
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    I live near Bridgend, and I would have thought you are right, particularly with the fallout from the closure of the engine plant, but WAG rather than Johnson are taking the hit on that.

    Labour have a very frosty relationship with the TV broadcast media here in Wales. Local BBC news is very hostile. Drakeford's stock has risen through Covid, but he and the Assembly Government are compared poorly against Johnson's performance, particularly in relation to the "late" opening of retail and hospitality sectors. Still no mandatory mask wearing in Wales, so Drakeford and Gething are being hammered in the media (rightly?) for that.

    Johnson is an enigma here in Wales. Historically the Welsh were hostile to English Tory Toffs, but Johnson seems to transcend that.
    The last poll in Wales showed a big shift back to Labour.I believe it would be a mistake to extrapolate much from Welsh Assembly elections where turnout is much lower and party alleigances much looser. Were I on the electoral roll there, I would support the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party.
    I voted "No" in 1998, but I am a convert now.
    I did not have a vote in Autumn 1997 - but have certainly not changed my mind.Very content if Johnson called a Referendum there to ascertain whether voters still wanted the Assembly. I am firmly of the Left but would vote Tory in a Tory v Plaid contest. Ditto in Scotland re-SNP.
    Again, I'm going to go all HYFUD and show the latest polls on the Wales and the Welsh *Parliament* (It's not an Assembly anymore)

    https://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinwales/2020/06/05/attitudes-to-devolution-and-welsh-independence/

    "If there were a referendum tomorrow on abolishing the Senedd (Welsh Parliament) and this was the question, how would you vote? Should Wales abolish the Senedd (Welsh Parliament)?” The result for this question (with changes since January again in brackets) were:

    Yes: 25% (+1)
    No: 48% (+1)
    Would not vote: 8% (no change)
    Don’t Know: 16% (-1)
    Refused: 3% (-1)"

    The new Barometer poll also repeated the now standard multiple-choice constitutional preference question that has been used in several previous Barometer polls as well as in many other studies. The findings here (with changes since January again in brackets) were:

    No devolved government in Wales: 22% (+5)
    Senedd with fewer powers: 5% (-3)
    Leave things as they are now: 24% (no change)
    Senedd with more powers: 20% (+2)
    Independent Wales: 16% (+2)
    Don’t Know: 12% (-4)
    Refused: 2% (-1)"
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Yes strikingly similar stories.

    And in both cases following the demise of the talented but vulnerable founding member the bands went on to enormous commercial success.
    I used to be a big fan of early Floyd ft Syd, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, but now it sounds like absolute nonsense. Peter Green, in contrast, was a serious musician, and his music with Fleetwood Mac still sounds fantastic today
    Barrett wrote some interesting songs, the very best of them - from his solo album - have a poetically uncanny quality.

    He's still a bit of a folk hero to me, maybe because of his madness.

    But the band was definitely and hugely improved by his leaving, and Gilmour joining. Only that band could have made Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here.
    Not sure he "left". More like one day they didn't bother to pick him up in the band van.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    But those are not new factors compared with 2019 - and by 2024 Brexit is likely to be a peripheral issue.
    I hope you are right.
    People who didn't want Brexit seem to say it wont be an issue for Starmer to have been the Brexit blocker he was, but it will be terrible for Boris who will have to own the consequences etc... Aren't they just talking their book?
    How many people actually blame Starmer rather than Corbyn for Labour’s Brexit policy?

    Or let me put it to you another way - one of the most criticised aspects of Labour’s 1992 campaign was a mock budget. Who delivered it? The man who would almost certainly have led Labour to victory in the 1997 election but for his fatal heart attack in 1994.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Yes strikingly similar stories.

    And in both cases following the demise of the talented but vulnerable founding member the bands went on to enormous commercial success.
    I used to be a big fan of early Floyd ft Syd, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, but now it sounds like absolute nonsense. Peter Green, in contrast, was a serious musician, and his music with Fleetwood Mac still sounds fantastic today
    Barrett wrote some interesting songs, the very best of them - from his solo album - have a poetically uncanny quality.

    He's still a bit of a folk hero to me, maybe because of his madness.

    But the band was definitely and hugely improved by his leaving, and Gilmour joining. Only that band could have made Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here.
    Not sure he "left". More like one day they didn't bother to pick him up in the band van.

    Yes, a sad story.

    And then he came back to see them when they were making Wish You Were Here, and he was all fat and weird.

    At the same time, they were recording Shine On You Crazy Diamond, which is all about him.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Don't get this whole hedge manager business - who'd have thought there was quite SO much money in supervising shrubbery?
    It requires the utmost discretion, looking after all those privet matters.
    Yew are right about that, it is no day at the beech.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    But those are not new factors compared with 2019 - and by 2024 Brexit is likely to be a peripheral issue.
    I hope you are right.
    People who didn't want Brexit seem to say it wont be an issue for Starmer to have been the Brexit blocker he was, but it will be terrible for Boris who will have to own the consequences etc... Aren't they just talking their book?
    I have been saying all evening Johnson's Brexit credentials are making him popular in blue collar South Wales.

    Whether that continues will depend on how well, or badly Brexit pans out. I am not convinced Johnson will suffer even if it leaves the whole of Wales destitute.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    rcs1000 said:

    That doesn't really sound like much of a scandal.
    St. Jeremy would never have taken the shilling from the dark side.

    Certainly not when there was paymaster Len on hand anyway
    He preferred to give it away to them.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/18/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-claims-ludicrous-and-wrong
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disappointing. I would have thought most people are exercising more than before.

    "The public has been snacking more in lockdown and, despite increases in sales of bikes and exercise equipment, overall activity levels appear to have dropped compared to before the pandemic"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-24/experts-warn-over-huge-risk-of-covid-death-in-obese-people-as-gyms-reopen

    But not at all surprising. There will have been a lot of boredom and anxiety eating going on during this period, and the proportion of gym users who've taken up outdoor exercise will be well short of 100%, despite the fact that we've had a lot of good weather.

    This period of enforced inactivity - the prolonged closure of leisure facilities, and prohibition of sports - will likely have undone many years of effort to get the population more active, just as many people have also developed serious chocolate biscuit fixations. Alas, good habits are often as easy to lose as bad habits are hard to give up.
    I've been doing a decent amount of exercise. Ran so many daily 5ks my knee started to protest. Got back into biking which I've pushed further and further - rode from Thornaby just south of the Tees to Newcastle yesterday. Monster ride. Epic.

    But I am depressed and working from home. Which makes snacky goodness not just possible but essential. A weekly beer night. With some midweek wee dram action. OK so I've finally decided that self medication isn't working and need professional attention. But weight management isn't exactly a priority at the moment.
    Sympathies and although I do respect your earnest endeavours to comply with guidance , if it is making you depressed and you want to do something to make you happier I would just do it and sod the covid -19 overregulations
    The last few days of having to wear a mask isn't making me depressed. As for sod it, isn't that how we have ended up in this mess with 20k dead who needn't have been?
    well no I dont think so - at some point herd immunity is needed - no point in destroying the economy and also peoples mental state - NY .London ,Sweden wont have a second wave of any significance because there is herd immunity - those that try and stop it full stop with have a miserable population , terrible unemployment and still get it
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,600
    "Boris must accept that the people do not want to bail out inner-city London
    Voters will not respond well to a city-centric vision for national recovery

    JETHRO ELSDEN" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/25/boris-must-accept-people-do-not-want-bail-inner-city-london/
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    edited July 2020
    isam said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Yes strikingly similar stories.

    And in both cases following the demise of the talented but vulnerable founding member the bands went on to enormous commercial success.
    I used to be a big fan of early Floyd ft Syd, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, but now it sounds like absolute nonsense. Peter Green, in contrast, was a serious musician, and his music with Fleetwood Mac still sounds fantastic today
    Sorry, but you're saying that Pink Floyd in contrast were *not* serious musicians? Its an opinion...

    Nick Mason's Saucerful of Secrets. Fantastic band playing fantastic music. And the best thing on their setlist? Vegetable Man, which is literally - and gloriously - nonsense.
    Syd Barrett, not the rest of Pink Floyd. I have probably listened to every song Barrett ever recorded, and read every book written about him - when I was 20 I could probably have had him as my specialist subject on Mastermind! But, 25 years on I have to say I think his music has aged very badly - I actually played "The Gnome" to my 8 month old son the other day and it wasn't out of place with the nonsense he listens to!

    Green, on the other hand, is a genuine rock legend whose music aged beautifully
    The material the character of Syd Barrett inspired Pink Floyd to create after he'd left was probably far better than anything he'd done himself while he was a member.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2020

    SONGS OF THE BATTLE GROUND (AND POSSIBLE VP) STATES - NEW MEXICO

    BILLY THE KID
    Bill Dean & Paul Nelson (and performed by Ry Cooder)

    I'll sing you a song about Billy the Kid
    I'll sing the record of deeds that he did
    Way out in New Mexico a long time ago
    When a (G) man's only friend was his his own .44

    Now when Billy the Kid was a very young lad
    In old Silver City he went to the bad
    Way out west with a knife in his hand
    At the age of twelve years he killed his first man

    Fair Mexican maidens play guitars and sing
    Songs about Billy their boy bandit king
    Before his young manhood reached its sad end
    He'd a notch on his pistol for twenty one men

    It was on one black night that poor Billy died
    He said to his friends, I'm not satisfied
    There's twenty one men that I've put bullets through
    And sheriff Pat Garrett's gonna make twenty-two

    Well, this is how Billy the Kid met his fate
    A big moon was shining and the hour was late
    Shot down by Pat Garrett, Silver City's best friend
    The poor outlaw's life have reached its sad end

    From a town known as Wheeling West Virginia
    Rode a boy with a six-gun in his hand
    And his daring life of crime
    Made him a legend in his time
    East and West of the Rio Grande

    Well he started with a bank in Colorado
    In the pocket of his vest, a Colt he hid
    And his age and his size took the teller by surprise
    And word spread of Billy the Kid

    Well he never traveled heavy
    Yes, he always rode alone
    And he soon put other older guns to shame
    And he never had a sweetheart
    And he never had a home
    But the cowboy and the rancher knew his name

    Well he robbed his way from Utah to Oklahoma
    And the law just could not seem to track him down
    And it served his legend well
    For the folks they'd love to tell 'bout when Billy the Kid came to town

    Well one cold day a posse captured Billy
    And the judge said "String 'I'm up for what he did!"
    And the cowboys and their kin like the sea, came pourin' in to watch the hangin' of Billy the Kid

    Well he never traveled heavy
    Yes, he always rode alone
    And he soon put other older guns to shame
    And he never had a sweetheart
    But he finally found a home
    Underneath the boot hill grave that bears his name

    From a town known as Oyster Bay, Long Island
    Rode a boy with a six-pack in his hand
    And his daring life of crime
    Made him a legend in his time
    East and West of the Rio Grande

    Billy Joel ~ The Ballad of the Billy the Kid
    BJ song clearly NOT about historic William Bonney aka Billy the Kid. Who was born in New York City (Manhattan) - NOT Wheeling, West Virginia (which was still in VA when WB was born). Who was shot to death - NOT hanged - by Pat Garrett; the Kid's reputed last words were "¿Quién es? ¿Quién es?" ("Who is it? Who is it?")

    As for the "boy" from "Oyster Bay, Long Island" that sounds like Theodore Roosevelt, esp. IF you consider imperialism, racisim & war-mongering crimes.
    Yes there was a lot of artistic licence in his song.

    I doubt Joel was calling Teddy Roosevelt a war criminal, more likely self-referential considering that I believe is where he's from himself.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disappointing. I would have thought most people are exercising more than before.

    "The public has been snacking more in lockdown and, despite increases in sales of bikes and exercise equipment, overall activity levels appear to have dropped compared to before the pandemic"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-24/experts-warn-over-huge-risk-of-covid-death-in-obese-people-as-gyms-reopen

    But not at all surprising. There will have been a lot of boredom and anxiety eating going on during this period, and the proportion of gym users who've taken up outdoor exercise will be well short of 100%, despite the fact that we've had a lot of good weather.

    This period of enforced inactivity - the prolonged closure of leisure facilities, and prohibition of sports - will likely have undone many years of effort to get the population more active, just as many people have also developed serious chocolate biscuit fixations. Alas, good habits are often as easy to lose as bad habits are hard to give up.
    I've been doing a decent amount of exercise. Ran so many daily 5ks my knee started to protest. Got back into biking which I've pushed further and further - rode from Thornaby just south of the Tees to Newcastle yesterday. Monster ride. Epic.

    But I am depressed and working from home. Which makes snacky goodness not just possible but essential. A weekly beer night. With some midweek wee dram action. OK so I've finally decided that self medication isn't working and need professional attention. But weight management isn't exactly a priority at the moment.
    "But weight management isn't exactly a priority at the moment."

    You and about thirty million other people. Regardless of whether or not you regard the Government's reported weight loss drive as nannying, I fear that it's not going to have much effect - at least, not in time to help if there is a Winter resurgence.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Yes strikingly similar stories.

    And in both cases following the demise of the talented but vulnerable founding member the bands went on to enormous commercial success.
    I used to be a big fan of early Floyd ft Syd, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, but now it sounds like absolute nonsense. Peter Green, in contrast, was a serious musician, and his music with Fleetwood Mac still sounds fantastic today
    Barrett wrote some interesting songs, the very best of them - from his solo album - have a poetically uncanny quality.

    He's still a bit of a folk hero to me, maybe because of his madness.

    But the band was definitely and hugely improved by his leaving, and Gilmour joining. Only that band could have made Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here.
    The solo albums were more of a psychiatric case study than musical entertainment for me - I wanted them to be great, but it's debatable that they should have been released IMO. He was supposed to be beyond impossible to work with in the studio by then, and they left on a couple of bad takes on the first one which I thought was a bit cruel.

    There is a clip of Dave Gilmour playing "Octopus" with his family from about a week a go on Youtube or twitter - very strange to see a compos mentis 70-something sing that with a straight face
  • On old boundaries Tories are on 327 as per Opinium poll.

    I wonder if Tories will see a poll boost if Brexit is perceived to be a success
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    Andy_JS said:

    "Boris must accept that the people do not want to bail out inner-city London
    Voters will not respond well to a city-centric vision for national recovery

    JETHRO ELSDEN" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/25/boris-must-accept-people-do-not-want-bail-inner-city-london/

    Which is a pity in a way as central london is diverse and ambitious and forward thinking ,Not that bailing out is needed as such but just a chance to get back to normal
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    CatMan said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    I live near Bridgend, and I would have thought you are right, particularly with the fallout from the closure of the engine plant, but WAG rather than Johnson are taking the hit on that.

    Labour have a very frosty relationship with the TV broadcast media here in Wales. Local BBC news is very hostile. Drakeford's stock has risen through Covid, but he and the Assembly Government are compared poorly against Johnson's performance, particularly in relation to the "late" opening of retail and hospitality sectors. Still no mandatory mask wearing in Wales, so Drakeford and Gething are being hammered in the media (rightly?) for that.

    Johnson is an enigma here in Wales. Historically the Welsh were hostile to English Tory Toffs, but Johnson seems to transcend that.
    The last poll in Wales showed a big shift back to Labour.I believe it would be a mistake to extrapolate much from Welsh Assembly elections where turnout is much lower and party alleigances much looser. Were I on the electoral roll there, I would support the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party.
    I voted "No" in 1998, but I am a convert now.
    I did not have a vote in Autumn 1997 - but have certainly not changed my mind.Very content if Johnson called a Referendum there to ascertain whether voters still wanted the Assembly. I am firmly of the Left but would vote Tory in a Tory v Plaid contest. Ditto in Scotland re-SNP.
    Again, I'm going to go all HYFUD and show the latest polls on the Wales and the Welsh *Parliament* (It's not an Assembly anymore)

    https://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinwales/2020/06/05/attitudes-to-devolution-and-welsh-independence/

    "If there were a referendum tomorrow on abolishing the Senedd (Welsh Parliament) and this was the question, how would you vote? Should Wales abolish the Senedd (Welsh Parliament)?” The result for this question (with changes since January again in brackets) were:

    Yes: 25% (+1)
    No: 48% (+1)
    Would not vote: 8% (no change)
    Don’t Know: 16% (-1)
    Refused: 3% (-1)"

    The new Barometer poll also repeated the now standard multiple-choice constitutional preference question that has been used in several previous Barometer polls as well as in many other studies. The findings here (with changes since January again in brackets) were:

    No devolved government in Wales: 22% (+5)
    Senedd with fewer powers: 5% (-3)
    Leave things as they are now: 24% (no change)
    Senedd with more powers: 20% (+2)
    Independent Wales: 16% (+2)
    Don’t Know: 12% (-4)
    Refused: 2% (-1)"
    I have seen that poll - but also recall polls leading up to the 1997 Devolution Referendum predicting a Yes win by at least 60% to 40%. In the event, it was 50.3% to 49.7%. My general sense is that the Assembly excites few voters - as reflected in low turnouts.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249
    edited July 2020

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    One would hope that by then Mr Starmer has substantially dealt with that issue, though it may cost him the casually racist part of of his party - who may go to / return to some sort of SWP or Socialist Unity structure, or switch to the Greens, which is were some of the SWP went after their 'keep rape investigations in the party' scandal.

    Suspect his position on Brexit will be quite tactical, given that the Tories will perhaps still be dogmatic, and the LDs may still have their head in a gooseberry bush.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disappointing. I would have thought most people are exercising more than before.

    "The public has been snacking more in lockdown and, despite increases in sales of bikes and exercise equipment, overall activity levels appear to have dropped compared to before the pandemic"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-24/experts-warn-over-huge-risk-of-covid-death-in-obese-people-as-gyms-reopen

    But not at all surprising. There will have been a lot of boredom and anxiety eating going on during this period, and the proportion of gym users who've taken up outdoor exercise will be well short of 100%, despite the fact that we've had a lot of good weather.

    This period of enforced inactivity - the prolonged closure of leisure facilities, and prohibition of sports - will likely have undone many years of effort to get the population more active, just as many people have also developed serious chocolate biscuit fixations. Alas, good habits are often as easy to lose as bad habits are hard to give up.
    I've been doing a decent amount of exercise. Ran so many daily 5ks my knee started to protest. Got back into biking which I've pushed further and further - rode from Thornaby just south of the Tees to Newcastle yesterday. Monster ride. Epic.

    But I am depressed and working from home. Which makes snacky goodness not just possible but essential. A weekly beer night. With some midweek wee dram action. OK so I've finally decided that self medication isn't working and need professional attention. But weight management isn't exactly a priority at the moment.
    Sympathies and although I do respect your earnest endeavours to comply with guidance , if it is making you depressed and you want to do something to make you happier I would just do it and sod the covid -19 overregulations
    The last few days of having to wear a mask isn't making me depressed. As for sod it, isn't that how we have ended up in this mess with 20k dead who needn't have been?
    well no I dont think so - at some point herd immunity is needed - no point in destroying the economy and also peoples mental state - NY .London ,Sweden wont have a second wave of any significance because there is herd immunity - those that try and stop it full stop with have a miserable population , terrible unemployment and still get it
    Let’s see what happens in Madrid as far a second wave goes! And I seem to remember Barcelona had a major outbreak as well where the major uptick is happening now.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    But those are not new factors compared with 2019 - and by 2024 Brexit is likely to be a peripheral issue.
    Well, Starmer isn’t racist. So any people with latent racist tendencies may feel awkward about voting for him.

    It was OK with Corbyn.
    You are being very impish here! You know full well my earlier racism themed comment was not aimed at the anti-Semite that is Catweasel, but the hilarious jolly jape dog whistles, which play so well to a certain audience, by the Jester-in-Chief.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    But those are not new factors compared with 2019 - and by 2024 Brexit is likely to be a peripheral issue.
    I hope you are right.
    People who didn't want Brexit seem to say it wont be an issue for Starmer to have been the Brexit blocker he was, but it will be terrible for Boris who will have to own the consequences etc... Aren't they just talking their book?
    I have been saying all evening Johnson's Brexit credentials are making him popular in blue collar South Wales.

    Whether that continues will depend on how well, or badly Brexit pans out. I am not convinced Johnson will suffer even if it leaves the whole of Wales destitute.
    I have not encountered people talking about Brexit for months! It really already seems to have become a background noise topic reserved for political anoraks. I am intrigued as to where you are finding these people.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    rcs1000 said:

    RH1992 said:

    But to me this is how the system should be working. Spain reports a spike and we act accordingly and swiftly. If we dithered then we'd be making the same mistakes as at the start of the pandemic.

    Most holiday providers have COVID guarantees now but there's always going to be some who lose out, it's a risk you take when you go abroad right now.

    Whack-a-mole is entirely appropriate here. Deal with problems as and when they pop up until they stop popping up.
    Of course it is

    This is UK wide and top marks to HMG for taking this decision
    For goodness sake, Spain was on the radar for 14 days quarantine remaining in place when it was lifted elsewhere (and at the last minute Span). Johnson is behind the 8 ball again.

    Take the blinkers off!
    I thought Spain with all its mask wearing would be safe - are we sure mask wearing does anything?
    Would you support surgeons not wearing masks during surgery? Because the principle is the same: you don't spread your particles far when you breath or cough.
    for all the good it has done Spain . Masks do sod all because most people (especially those who dont want to wear them do not use them properly. All that disgusting garbage as well .
    What part of masks block particulates which helps protect others are you struggling to understand?

    I am kind of curious how "not properly" they're being worn such that they're not blocking any particulates? Are you putting them over your eyes instead of your mouth in order to look like the Lone Ranger?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    MattW said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    One would hope that by then Mr Starmer has substantially dealt with that issue, though it may cost him the casually racist part of of his party - who may go to / return to some sort of SWP or Socialist Unity structure, or switch to the Greens, which is were some of the SWP went after their 'keep rape investigations in the party' scandal.

    Suspect his position on Brexit will be quite tactical, given that the Tories will perhaps still be dogmatic, and the LDs may still have their head in a gooseberry bush.
    I was suggesting Mr Johnson's water melon smiles and letter box jokes play well in former, and soon to be former Labour seats.

    Clearly, as two posters have misunderstood that, my mistake!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Donald Trump and Boris Johnson are both political marvels.

    > Both rose to power despite - or rather because of - their buffoonish demeanor and outrageous persona.
    > Both succeeded in rallying the most conservative AND populist sections of the own party.
    > And both won office by making striking inroads and millions of converts among voters who just a few elections ago were a key part of the opposition's own base.

    It may well end in tears for both Boris and Trumpsky. But nobody can ever take away their amazing political achievement. Which may well be more symptomatic of systemic ills than individual brilliance. Nevertheless, the achievement remains.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    But those are not new factors compared with 2019 - and by 2024 Brexit is likely to be a peripheral issue.
    I hope you are right.
    People who didn't want Brexit seem to say it wont be an issue for Starmer to have been the Brexit blocker he was, but it will be terrible for Boris who will have to own the consequences etc... Aren't they just talking their book?
    I have been saying all evening Johnson's Brexit credentials are making him popular in blue collar South Wales.

    Whether that continues will depend on how well, or badly Brexit pans out. I am not convinced Johnson will suffer even if it leaves the whole of Wales destitute.
    I have not encountered people talking about Brexit for months! It really already seems to have become a background noise topic reserved for political anoraks. I am intrigued as to where you are finding these people.
    Port Talbot.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    MattW said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    One would hope that by then Mr Starmer has substantially dealt with that issue, though it may cost him the casually racist part of of his party - who may go to / return to some sort of SWP or Socialist Unity structure, or switch to the Greens, which is were some of the SWP went after their 'keep rape investigations in the party' scandal.

    Suspect his position on Brexit will be quite tactical, given that the Tories will perhaps still be dogmatic, and the LDs may still have their head in a gooseberry bush.
    I was suggesting Mr Johnson's water melon smiles and letter box jokes play well in former, and soon to be former Labour seats.

    Clearly, as two posters have misunderstood that, my mistake!
    I didn’t misunderstand you. I just saw an excellent opportunity to annoy a certain poster (not Justin) who gets very agitated every time I make a dig at Corbyn!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    On old boundaries Tories are on 327 as per Opinium poll.

    I wonder if Tories will see a poll boost if Brexit is perceived to be a success

    Hopefully, for everyone's sake whatever you thought about it at the time, it is good if it is perceived to be a success in hindsight is it not?

    The last thing anyone should want is a catastrophe.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Yes strikingly similar stories.

    And in both cases following the demise of the talented but vulnerable founding member the bands went on to enormous commercial success.
    I used to be a big fan of early Floyd ft Syd, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, but now it sounds like absolute nonsense. Peter Green, in contrast, was a serious musician, and his music with Fleetwood Mac still sounds fantastic today
    Barrett wrote some interesting songs, the very best of them - from his solo album - have a poetically uncanny quality.

    He's still a bit of a folk hero to me, maybe because of his madness.

    But the band was definitely and hugely improved by his leaving, and Gilmour joining. Only that band could have made Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here.
    The solo albums were more of a psychiatric case study than musical entertainment for me - I wanted them to be great, but it's debatable that they should have been released IMO. He was supposed to be beyond impossible to work with in the studio by then, and they left on a couple of bad takes on the first one which I thought was a bit cruel.

    There is a clip of Dave Gilmour playing "Octopus" with his family from about a week a go on Youtube or twitter - very strange to see a compos mentis 70-something sing that with a straight face
    I will still happily listen to Effervescing Elephant, Bike, Here I Go, Gigolo Aunt, and Golden Hair. I love their mix of innocent wonder and dreaming sadness.

    Barrett was also an extremely handsome young man, which adds to the poignancy of his story.

  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    I get the point, but portraying Nixon as a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war is a bit of a stretch.
  • On old boundaries Tories are on 327 as per Opinium poll.

    I wonder if Tories will see a poll boost if Brexit is perceived to be a success

    Hopefully, for everyone's sake whatever you thought about it at the time, it is good if it is perceived to be a success in hindsight is it not?

    The last thing anyone should want is a catastrophe.
    I hope it is a success but I don't think it will be.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    SONGS OF THE BATTLE GROUND (AND POSSIBLE VP) STATES - NEW MEXICO

    BILLY THE KID
    Bill Dean & Paul Nelson (and performed by Ry Cooder)

    I'll sing you a song about Billy the Kid
    I'll sing the record of deeds that he did
    Way out in New Mexico a long time ago
    When a (G) man's only friend was his his own .44

    Now when Billy the Kid was a very young lad
    In old Silver City he went to the bad
    Way out west with a knife in his hand
    At the age of twelve years he killed his first man

    Fair Mexican maidens play guitars and sing
    Songs about Billy their boy bandit king
    Before his young manhood reached its sad end
    He'd a notch on his pistol for twenty one men

    It was on one black night that poor Billy died
    He said to his friends, I'm not satisfied
    There's twenty one men that I've put bullets through
    And sheriff Pat Garrett's gonna make twenty-two

    Well, this is how Billy the Kid met his fate
    A big moon was shining and the hour was late
    Shot down by Pat Garrett, Silver City's best friend
    The poor outlaw's life have reached its sad end

    From a town known as Wheeling West Virginia
    Rode a boy with a six-gun in his hand
    And his daring life of crime
    Made him a legend in his time
    East and West of the Rio Grande

    Well he started with a bank in Colorado
    In the pocket of his vest, a Colt he hid
    And his age and his size took the teller by surprise
    And word spread of Billy the Kid

    Well he never traveled heavy
    Yes, he always rode alone
    And he soon put other older guns to shame
    And he never had a sweetheart
    And he never had a home
    But the cowboy and the rancher knew his name

    Well he robbed his way from Utah to Oklahoma
    And the law just could not seem to track him down
    And it served his legend well
    For the folks they'd love to tell 'bout when Billy the Kid came to town

    Well one cold day a posse captured Billy
    And the judge said "String 'I'm up for what he did!"
    And the cowboys and their kin like the sea, came pourin' in to watch the hangin' of Billy the Kid

    Well he never traveled heavy
    Yes, he always rode alone
    And he soon put other older guns to shame
    And he never had a sweetheart
    But he finally found a home
    Underneath the boot hill grave that bears his name

    From a town known as Oyster Bay, Long Island
    Rode a boy with a six-pack in his hand
    And his daring life of crime
    Made him a legend in his time
    East and West of the Rio Grande

    Billy Joel ~ The Ballad of the Billy the Kid
    BJ song clearly NOT about historic William Bonney aka Billy the Kid. Who was born in New York City (Manhattan) - NOT Wheeling, West Virginia (which was still in VA when WB was born). Who was shot to death - NOT hanged - by Pat Garrett; the Kid's reputed last words were "¿Quién es? ¿Quién es?" ("Who is it? Who is it?")

    As for the "boy" from "Oyster Bay, Long Island" that sounds like Theodore Roosevelt, esp. IF you consider imperialism, racisim & war-mongering crimes.
    Yes there was a lot of artistic licence in his song.

    I doubt Joel was calling Teddy Roosevelt a war criminal, more likely self-referential considering that I believe is where he's from himself.
    I stand corrected re: Billy Joel & Oyster Bay. That puts the autobio element into clear focus. BUT will still think of Teddy NOT Billy when OB is mentioned!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    The last thing anyone should want is a catastrophe.

    That's why some of us voted against it.

    Too late to wish it away now
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    But those are not new factors compared with 2019 - and by 2024 Brexit is likely to be a peripheral issue.
    I hope you are right.
    People who didn't want Brexit seem to say it wont be an issue for Starmer to have been the Brexit blocker he was, but it will be terrible for Boris who will have to own the consequences etc... Aren't they just talking their book?
    I have been saying all evening Johnson's Brexit credentials are making him popular in blue collar South Wales.

    Whether that continues will depend on how well, or badly Brexit pans out. I am not convinced Johnson will suffer even if it leaves the whole of Wales destitute.
    I have not encountered people talking about Brexit for months! It really already seems to have become a background noise topic reserved for political anoraks. I am intrigued as to where you are finding these people.
    Port Talbot.
    Are people bringing up Brexit spontaneously? Or are they responding to questions asked of them?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    Agree. I've been wondering for the last couple of days, whilst the possible causes of the Spanish spike have been debated, whether nightclubs are a key component - although it could also be that the Spaniards are less reticent about going out generally and have more of a culture of eating out, as a consequence of which they're packing out the bars and restaurants in much higher densities? Though someone who's actually familiar with what conditions are like over there at the moment would be better placed to comment.

    Specifically with regard to nightclubs, I have no time for them either but then again I'm a stick-in-the-mud fortysomething who's not exactly part of their target demographic. They are popular with a lot of people and, as with the arts, they should be propped up until it is safe for them to resume normal operations. Apart from anything else, since this has all started I've read more than one piece of comment on the nightclubs to the effect that, if the sector is allowed to collapse, the venues are a prime target to be bought up on the cheap and re-opened later by organised crime. This makes sense. They'd be somewhere ideal to ply the naive or reckless young with drugs.
    Let’s start with the temperature, it’s currently 28 there’s no way you are going to sleep anytime soon. Therefore eating in or out for most starts at 9:30 and goes into the early hours. Groups gather in restaurants, bars and on terraces until 4 or 5 in the morning, the young look for something more exciting so in the absence of discos etc just gather in larger groups. It’s holiday time but there are no fiestas, people are getting together for the first time in months, they hug and kiss. Yes many are bloody irresponsible it would not be too difficult to enjoy life with just a little thought but maybe alcohol is to blame. The R number is still below one, the ICU cases very low and the deaths negligible so maybe some are saying ‘what’s the problem’

    Even if you shut the bars down at 11 people would carry on on their terrace. It’s frustrating to us more elderly locals but that’s how it is. 10,000 people from Madrid on their way to our small town on Friday what On earth could could Go wrong?
    Hmmmm... I think we all well remember that there have been similar concerns about mass gatherings over here as well - notably the great Bournemouth and Lulworth Cove beach panics - but this theory does sound as though it could be plausible nonetheless. Little knots of sunbathers will consist largely of family household groups and aren't going to be interacting with one another. Sounds like there's a lot more socialising going on in this instance.

    I wonder if there have been any clusters of cases traced back to illegal raves in this country?
    If we are not careful we will nanny ourselves back into the dark ages.
    I'm not fond of the restrictions under which we currently labour either (and I think we could still do with better evidence on masks,) but it seems not unreasonable to conclude that the solution to keeping a lid on this highly infectious disease lies somewhere between sitting in our houses the entire time and carrying on as if nothing had happened. The only question is how much we can get away with.

    The Government's approach appears to be working at the moment, but it also seems appropriate to look at what is happening in other countries to try to preempt any future problems. Frankly, if it turns out at the end of all this that everything can open back up except nightclubs, then that doesn't seem like such a bad result.
    You will still need an outlet for those who would have gone to clubs, illegal raves?
    As a bad dancer and not a fan of loud music I wont miss nightclubs personally but then again I am not 18 -25 . I really dont think the existence of civilisation rests with not having nightclubs. It spretty obvious you need herd immunity from this and NY .London ,Sweden have gone a way to it - others will get there , mask wearing /nightclubs whatever .All that is lost by overly restrictive laws now is common humanity and hope that people will still have jobs
    So, Sweden's done better than us economically, right?

    Err. No. Normality has returned more to places that had lockdowns than didn't.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Donald Trump and Boris Johnson are both political marvels.

    > Both rose to power despite - or rather because of - their buffoonish demeanor and outrageous persona.
    > Both succeeded in rallying the most conservative AND populist sections of the own party.
    > And both won office by making striking inroads and millions of converts among voters who just a few elections ago were a key part of the opposition's own base.

    It may well end in tears for both Boris and Trumpsky. But nobody can ever take away their amazing political achievement. Which may well be more symptomatic of systemic ills than individual brilliance. Nevertheless, the achievement remains.

    Adolf Hitler enjoyed similar success in 1932.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disappointing. I would have thought most people are exercising more than before.

    "The public has been snacking more in lockdown and, despite increases in sales of bikes and exercise equipment, overall activity levels appear to have dropped compared to before the pandemic"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-24/experts-warn-over-huge-risk-of-covid-death-in-obese-people-as-gyms-reopen

    But not at all surprising. There will have been a lot of boredom and anxiety eating going on during this period, and the proportion of gym users who've taken up outdoor exercise will be well short of 100%, despite the fact that we've had a lot of good weather.

    This period of enforced inactivity - the prolonged closure of leisure facilities, and prohibition of sports - will likely have undone many years of effort to get the population more active, just as many people have also developed serious chocolate biscuit fixations. Alas, good habits are often as easy to lose as bad habits are hard to give up.
    Don't forget that a huge number of gym members never attended the gym anyway. Perhaps half.

    Ten or twenty million people utility cycling will be far more likely to have an impact - if and only if we make using a bike a perceived-safe (it actually is very safe, but people assume not), and a more attractive option than driving.

    And that requires a generation of reasonable investment in high quality infrastructure; at present we are about 50 years out of date.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    One would hope that by then Mr Starmer has substantially dealt with that issue, though it may cost him the casually racist part of of his party - who may go to / return to some sort of SWP or Socialist Unity structure, or switch to the Greens, which is were some of the SWP went after their 'keep rape investigations in the party' scandal.

    Suspect his position on Brexit will be quite tactical, given that the Tories will perhaps still be dogmatic, and the LDs may still have their head in a gooseberry bush.
    I was suggesting Mr Johnson's water melon smiles and letter box jokes play well in former, and soon to be former Labour seats.

    Clearly, as two posters have misunderstood that, my mistake!
    I didn’t misunderstand you. I just saw an excellent opportunity to annoy a certain poster (not Justin) who gets very agitated every time I make a dig at Corbyn!
    You've tumbled my game! I live for every word from the Great Jezziah. I didn't think it showed.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    MattW said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    One would hope that by then Mr Starmer has substantially dealt with that issue, though it may cost him the casually racist part of of his party - who may go to / return to some sort of SWP or Socialist Unity structure, or switch to the Greens, which is were some of the SWP went after their 'keep rape investigations in the party' scandal.

    Suspect his position on Brexit will be quite tactical, given that the Tories will perhaps still be dogmatic, and the LDs may still have their head in a gooseberry bush.
    I was suggesting Mr Johnson's water melon smiles and letter box jokes play well in former, and soon to be former Labour seats.

    Clearly, as two posters have misunderstood that, my mistake!
    "Letter box" isn't racist. No race wears the burqa. No religion either.

    The burqa is cultural not religious or racial. It is oppressive misogyny and should be called out for what it is.

    Anyone who suggests that any race wears the burqa is themselves being racists.

    It is Islamophobic to suggest that Muslims wear the Burqa, only extremists do. Suggesting Islam = Burqa is as ignorant as trying to suggest all Christians are extremists.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    edited July 2020
    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    I live near Bridgend, and I would have thought you are right, particularly with the fallout from the closure of the engine plant, but WAG rather than Johnson are taking the hit on that.

    Labour have a very frosty relationship with the TV broadcast media here in Wales. Local BBC news is very hostile. Drakeford's stock has risen through Covid, but he and the Assembly Government are compared poorly against Johnson's performance, particularly in relation to the "late" opening of retail and hospitality sectors. Still no mandatory mask wearing in Wales, so Drakeford and Gething are being hammered in the media (rightly?) for that.

    Johnson is an enigma here in Wales. Historically the Welsh were hostile to English Tory Toffs, but Johnson seems to transcend that.
    The last poll in Wales showed a big shift back to Labour.I believe it would be a mistake to extrapolate much from Welsh Assembly elections where turnout is much lower and party alleigances much looser. Were I on the electoral roll there, I would support the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party.
    I voted "No" in 1998, but I am a convert now.
    I did not have a vote in Autumn 1997 - but have certainly not changed my mind.Very content if Johnson called a Referendum there to ascertain whether voters still wanted the Assembly. I am firmly of the Left but would vote Tory in a Tory v Plaid contest. Ditto in Scotland re-SNP.
    Again, I'm going to go all HYFUD and show the latest polls on the Wales and the Welsh *Parliament* (It's not an Assembly anymore)

    https://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinwales/2020/06/05/attitudes-to-devolution-and-welsh-independence/

    "If there were a referendum tomorrow on abolishing the Senedd (Welsh Parliament) and this was the question, how would you vote? Should Wales abolish the Senedd (Welsh Parliament)?” The result for this question (with changes since January again in brackets) were:

    Yes: 25% (+1)
    No: 48% (+1)
    Would not vote: 8% (no change)
    Don’t Know: 16% (-1)
    Refused: 3% (-1)"

    The new Barometer poll also repeated the now standard multiple-choice constitutional preference question that has been used in several previous Barometer polls as well as in many other studies. The findings here (with changes since January again in brackets) were:

    No devolved government in Wales: 22% (+5)
    Senedd with fewer powers: 5% (-3)
    Leave things as they are now: 24% (no change)
    Senedd with more powers: 20% (+2)
    Independent Wales: 16% (+2)
    Don’t Know: 12% (-4)
    Refused: 2% (-1)"
    I have seen that poll - but also recall polls leading up to the 1997 Devolution Referendum predicting a Yes win by at least 60% to 40%. In the event, it was 50.3% to 49.7%. My general sense is that the Assembly excites few voters - as reflected in low turnouts.
    I don't agree. The last referendum in Wales, on increasing the powers of the Welsh (as it was then) Assembly passed comfortably.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Welsh_devolution_referendum

    I think the Welsh Independence genie has been let out of the bottle. It will take longer than Scottish Independence, but I think eventually it will happen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    The ghost of William Beveridge squawks angrily.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249
    rcs1000 said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    Agree. I've been wondering for the last couple of days, whilst the possible causes of the Spanish spike have been debated, whether nightclubs are a key component - although it could also be that the Spaniards are less reticent about going out generally and have more of a culture of eating out, as a consequence of which they're packing out the bars and restaurants in much higher densities? Though someone who's actually familiar with what conditions are like over there at the moment would be better placed to comment.

    Specifically with regard to nightclubs, I have no time for them either but then again I'm a stick-in-the-mud fortysomething who's not exactly part of their target demographic. They are popular with a lot of people and, as with the arts, they should be propped up until it is safe for them to resume normal operations. Apart from anything else, since this has all started I've read more than one piece of comment on the nightclubs to the effect that, if the sector is allowed to collapse, the venues are a prime target to be bought up on the cheap and re-opened later by organised crime. This makes sense. They'd be somewhere ideal to ply the naive or reckless young with drugs.
    Let’s start with the temperature, it’s currently 28 there’s no way you are going to sleep anytime soon. Therefore eating in or out for most starts at 9:30 and goes into the early hours. Groups gather in restaurants, bars and on terraces until 4 or 5 in the morning, the young look for something more exciting so in the absence of discos etc just gather in larger groups. It’s holiday time but there are no fiestas, people are getting together for the first time in months, they hug and kiss. Yes many are bloody irresponsible it would not be too difficult to enjoy life with just a little thought but maybe alcohol is to blame. The R number is still below one, the ICU cases very low and the deaths negligible so maybe some are saying ‘what’s the problem’

    Even if you shut the bars down at 11 people would carry on on their terrace. It’s frustrating to us more elderly locals but that’s how it is. 10,000 people from Madrid on their way to our small town on Friday what On earth could could Go wrong?
    Hmmmm... I think we all well remember that there have been similar concerns about mass gatherings over here as well - notably the great Bournemouth and Lulworth Cove beach panics - but this theory does sound as though it could be plausible nonetheless. Little knots of sunbathers will consist largely of family household groups and aren't going to be interacting with one another. Sounds like there's a lot more socialising going on in this instance.

    I wonder if there have been any clusters of cases traced back to illegal raves in this country?
    If we are not careful we will nanny ourselves back into the dark ages.
    I'm not fond of the restrictions under which we currently labour either (and I think we could still do with better evidence on masks,) but it seems not unreasonable to conclude that the solution to keeping a lid on this highly infectious disease lies somewhere between sitting in our houses the entire time and carrying on as if nothing had happened. The only question is how much we can get away with.

    The Government's approach appears to be working at the moment, but it also seems appropriate to look at what is happening in other countries to try to preempt any future problems. Frankly, if it turns out at the end of all this that everything can open back up except nightclubs, then that doesn't seem like such a bad result.
    You will still need an outlet for those who would have gone to clubs, illegal raves?
    As a bad dancer and not a fan of loud music I wont miss nightclubs personally but then again I am not 18 -25 . I really dont think the existence of civilisation rests with not having nightclubs. It spretty obvious you need herd immunity from this and NY .London ,Sweden have gone a way to it - others will get there , mask wearing /nightclubs whatever .All that is lost by overly restrictive laws now is common humanity and hope that people will still have jobs
    So, Sweden's done better than us economically, right?

    Err. No. Normality has returned more to places that had lockdowns than didn't.
    Good dancers don't go to nightclubs :-) .
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    I get the point, but portraying Nixon as a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war is a bit of a stretch.
    Think comparing Trump with Nixon is a winning strategy - for Biden. So keep it up!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    CatMan said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    I live near Bridgend, and I would have thought you are right, particularly with the fallout from the closure of the engine plant, but WAG rather than Johnson are taking the hit on that.

    Labour have a very frosty relationship with the TV broadcast media here in Wales. Local BBC news is very hostile. Drakeford's stock has risen through Covid, but he and the Assembly Government are compared poorly against Johnson's performance, particularly in relation to the "late" opening of retail and hospitality sectors. Still no mandatory mask wearing in Wales, so Drakeford and Gething are being hammered in the media (rightly?) for that.

    Johnson is an enigma here in Wales. Historically the Welsh were hostile to English Tory Toffs, but Johnson seems to transcend that.
    The last poll in Wales showed a big shift back to Labour.I believe it would be a mistake to extrapolate much from Welsh Assembly elections where turnout is much lower and party alleigances much looser. Were I on the electoral roll there, I would support the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party.
    I voted "No" in 1998, but I am a convert now.
    I did not have a vote in Autumn 1997 - but have certainly not changed my mind.Very content if Johnson called a Referendum there to ascertain whether voters still wanted the Assembly. I am firmly of the Left but would vote Tory in a Tory v Plaid contest. Ditto in Scotland re-SNP.
    Again, I'm going to go all HYFUD and show the latest polls on the Wales and the Welsh *Parliament* (It's not an Assembly anymore)

    https://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinwales/2020/06/05/attitudes-to-devolution-and-welsh-independence/

    "If there were a referendum tomorrow on abolishing the Senedd (Welsh Parliament) and this was the question, how would you vote? Should Wales abolish the Senedd (Welsh Parliament)?” The result for this question (with changes since January again in brackets) were:

    Yes: 25% (+1)
    No: 48% (+1)
    Would not vote: 8% (no change)
    Don’t Know: 16% (-1)
    Refused: 3% (-1)"

    The new Barometer poll also repeated the now standard multiple-choice constitutional preference question that has been used in several previous Barometer polls as well as in many other studies. The findings here (with changes since January again in brackets) were:

    No devolved government in Wales: 22% (+5)
    Senedd with fewer powers: 5% (-3)
    Leave things as they are now: 24% (no change)
    Senedd with more powers: 20% (+2)
    Independent Wales: 16% (+2)
    Don’t Know: 12% (-4)
    Refused: 2% (-1)"
    I have seen that poll - but also recall polls leading up to the 1997 Devolution Referendum predicting a Yes win by at least 60% to 40%. In the event, it was 50.3% to 49.7%. My general sense is that the Assembly excites few voters - as reflected in low turnouts.
    I don't agree. The last referendum in Wales (on increasing the powers of the Welsh (as it was then) Assembly passed comfortably.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Welsh_devolution_referendum

    I think the Welsh Independence genie has been let out of the bottle. It will take longer than Scottish Independence, but I think eventually it will happen.
    The Welsh devolution bottle has, I see no evidence for surging support for Welsh independence though.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited July 2020

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    One would hope that by then Mr Starmer has substantially dealt with that issue, though it may cost him the casually racist part of of his party - who may go to / return to some sort of SWP or Socialist Unity structure, or switch to the Greens, which is were some of the SWP went after their 'keep rape investigations in the party' scandal.

    Suspect his position on Brexit will be quite tactical, given that the Tories will perhaps still be dogmatic, and the LDs may still have their head in a gooseberry bush.
    I was suggesting Mr Johnson's water melon smiles and letter box jokes play well in former, and soon to be former Labour seats.

    Clearly, as two posters have misunderstood that, my mistake!
    I didn’t misunderstand you. I just saw an excellent opportunity to annoy a certain poster (not Justin) who gets very agitated every time I make a dig at Corbyn!
    You've tumbled my game! I live for every word from the Great Jezziah. I didn't think it showed.
    For some reason he hasn’t been around recently. I wonder why.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    rcs1000 said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    Agree. I've been wondering for the last couple of days, whilst the possible causes of the Spanish spike have been debated, whether nightclubs are a key component - although it could also be that the Spaniards are less reticent about going out generally and have more of a culture of eating out, as a consequence of which they're packing out the bars and restaurants in much higher densities? Though someone who's actually familiar with what conditions are like over there at the moment would be better placed to comment.

    Specifically with regard to nightclubs, I have no time for them either but then again I'm a stick-in-the-mud fortysomething who's not exactly part of their target demographic. They are popular with a lot of people and, as with the arts, they should be propped up until it is safe for them to resume normal operations. Apart from anything else, since this has all started I've read more than one piece of comment on the nightclubs to the effect that, if the sector is allowed to collapse, the venues are a prime target to be bought up on the cheap and re-opened later by organised crime. This makes sense. They'd be somewhere ideal to ply the naive or reckless young with drugs.
    Let’s start with the temperature, it’s currently 28 there’s no way you are going to sleep anytime soon. Therefore eating in or out for most starts at 9:30 and goes into the early hours. Groups gather in restaurants, bars and on terraces until 4 or 5 in the morning, the young look for something more exciting so in the absence of discos etc just gather in larger groups. It’s holiday time but there are no fiestas, people are getting together for the first time in months, they hug and kiss. Yes many are bloody irresponsible it would not be too difficult to enjoy life with just a little thought but maybe alcohol is to blame. The R number is still below one, the ICU cases very low and the deaths negligible so maybe some are saying ‘what’s the problem’

    Even if you shut the bars down at 11 people would carry on on their terrace. It’s frustrating to us more elderly locals but that’s how it is. 10,000 people from Madrid on their way to our small town on Friday what On earth could could Go wrong?
    Hmmmm... I think we all well remember that there have been similar concerns about mass gatherings over here as well - notably the great Bournemouth and Lulworth Cove beach panics - but this theory does sound as though it could be plausible nonetheless. Little knots of sunbathers will consist largely of family household groups and aren't going to be interacting with one another. Sounds like there's a lot more socialising going on in this instance.

    I wonder if there have been any clusters of cases traced back to illegal raves in this country?
    If we are not careful we will nanny ourselves back into the dark ages.
    I'm not fond of the restrictions under which we currently labour either (and I think we could still do with better evidence on masks,) but it seems not unreasonable to conclude that the solution to keeping a lid on this highly infectious disease lies somewhere between sitting in our houses the entire time and carrying on as if nothing had happened. The only question is how much we can get away with.

    The Government's approach appears to be working at the moment, but it also seems appropriate to look at what is happening in other countries to try to preempt any future problems. Frankly, if it turns out at the end of all this that everything can open back up except nightclubs, then that doesn't seem like such a bad result.
    You will still need an outlet for those who would have gone to clubs, illegal raves?
    As a bad dancer and not a fan of loud music I wont miss nightclubs personally but then again I am not 18 -25 . I really dont think the existence of civilisation rests with not having nightclubs. It spretty obvious you need herd immunity from this and NY .London ,Sweden have gone a way to it - others will get there , mask wearing /nightclubs whatever .All that is lost by overly restrictive laws now is common humanity and hope that people will still have jobs
    So, Sweden's done better than us economically, right?

    Err. No. Normality has returned more to places that had lockdowns than didn't.
    Sweden HAS done better than us, economically. Stats show they've gone back to normal life quicker, mobility is returning faster, restaurants filling up better. And of course they never closed their schools.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    But those are not new factors compared with 2019 - and by 2024 Brexit is likely to be a peripheral issue.
    I hope you are right.
    People who didn't want Brexit seem to say it wont be an issue for Starmer to have been the Brexit blocker he was, but it will be terrible for Boris who will have to own the consequences etc... Aren't they just talking their book?
    I have been saying all evening Johnson's Brexit credentials are making him popular in blue collar South Wales.

    Whether that continues will depend on how well, or badly Brexit pans out. I am not convinced Johnson will suffer even if it leaves the whole of Wales destitute.
    I have not encountered people talking about Brexit for months! It really already seems to have become a background noise topic reserved for political anoraks. I am intrigued as to where you are finding these people.
    Port Talbot.
    Are people bringing up Brexit spontaneously? Or are they responding to questions asked of them?
    Brexit is the undercurrent. Queueing for the doctors because of "foreigners". " My boy can't get a job at Amazon in Jersey Marine because of "foreigners". "Boris will sort them out! Bloody foreigners!"
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    On old boundaries Tories are on 327 as per Opinium poll.

    I wonder if Tories will see a poll boost if Brexit is perceived to be a success

    Hopefully, for everyone's sake whatever you thought about it at the time, it is good if it is perceived to be a success in hindsight is it not?

    The last thing anyone should want is a catastrophe.
    I hope it is a success but I don't think it will be.
    I can respect that.
  • So Labour is at 38%, to reclaim their 2% of voters from 2017 should not be too hard. I suspect they are waiting on decisive action, for example on anti-Semitism.

    I suspect if Corbyn is kicked out, they will get a large polling boost
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    I'm sure the Corbyn Cult will be tweeting shortly about how he betrayed the working classes and let down the Palestinians whilst not closing enough main stream newspapers down.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    But those are not new factors compared with 2019 - and by 2024 Brexit is likely to be a peripheral issue.
    I hope you are right.
    People who didn't want Brexit seem to say it wont be an issue for Starmer to have been the Brexit blocker he was, but it will be terrible for Boris who will have to own the consequences etc... Aren't they just talking their book?
    I have been saying all evening Johnson's Brexit credentials are making him popular in blue collar South Wales.

    Whether that continues will depend on how well, or badly Brexit pans out. I am not convinced Johnson will suffer even if it leaves the whole of Wales destitute.
    I have not encountered people talking about Brexit for months! It really already seems to have become a background noise topic reserved for political anoraks. I am intrigued as to where you are finding these people.
    Port Talbot.
    Are people bringing up Brexit spontaneously? Or are they responding to questions asked of them?
    Brexit is the undercurrent. Queueing for the doctors because of "foreigners". " My boy can't get a job at Amazon in Jersey Marine because of "foreigners". "Boris will sort them out! Bloody foreigners!"
    And what happens when he fails to 'sort them out' after several years in office with a majority of 80?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disappointing. I would have thought most people are exercising more than before.

    "The public has been snacking more in lockdown and, despite increases in sales of bikes and exercise equipment, overall activity levels appear to have dropped compared to before the pandemic"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-24/experts-warn-over-huge-risk-of-covid-death-in-obese-people-as-gyms-reopen

    But not at all surprising. There will have been a lot of boredom and anxiety eating going on during this period, and the proportion of gym users who've taken up outdoor exercise will be well short of 100%, despite the fact that we've had a lot of good weather.

    This period of enforced inactivity - the prolonged closure of leisure facilities, and prohibition of sports - will likely have undone many years of effort to get the population more active, just as many people have also developed serious chocolate biscuit fixations. Alas, good habits are often as easy to lose as bad habits are hard to give up.
    I've been doing a decent amount of exercise. Ran so many daily 5ks my knee started to protest. Got back into biking which I've pushed further and further - rode from Thornaby just south of the Tees to Newcastle yesterday. Monster ride. Epic.

    But I am depressed and working from home. Which makes snacky goodness not just possible but essential. A weekly beer night. With some midweek wee dram action. OK so I've finally decided that self medication isn't working and need professional attention. But weight management isn't exactly a priority at the moment.
    "But weight management isn't exactly a priority at the moment."

    You and about thirty million other people. Regardless of whether or not you regard the Government's reported weight loss drive as nannying, I fear that it's not going to have much effect - at least, not in time to help if there is a Winter resurgence.
    I don't think I'm adding any more fat to my midriff but I'm not losing it. I am adding muscle tone to my arms and legs though - the cycling is at least adding muscle and my cardio fitness is probably better than its been for a decade or more
  • I'm sure the Corbyn Cult will be tweeting shortly about how he betrayed the working classes and let down the Palestinians whilst not closing enough main stream newspapers down.
    The comments are as you'd expect
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2020

    I get the point, but portraying Nixon as a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war is a bit of a stretch.
    Nixon was a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war.

    Nixon was one of the greatest Presidents of all time initially . . . who got carried away with Watergate and cover ups and so became regarded as one of the most toxic and worst of all time. People will only ever associate Nixon with Watergate now but its worth remembering just how incredibly successful he was before Watergate.

    If Nixon had been assassinated, JFK-style, in the weeks after his second election victory then I strongly believe history would now be remembering Nixon as one of the greatest Presidents of all time.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    SONGS OF THE BATTLE GROUND STATES - ARIZONA

    BIG IRON
    Marty Robbins

    To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day
    Hardly spoke to folks around him, didn't have too much to say
    No one dared to ask his business, no one dared to make a slip
    The stranger there among them had a big iron on his hip
    Big iron on his hip

    It was early in the morning when he rode into the town
    He came riding from the south side, slowly lookin' all around
    He's an outlaw loose and runnin', came a whisper from each lip
    And he's here to do some business with a big iron on his hip
    Big iron on his hip

    In this town there lived an outlaw by the name of Texas Red
    Many men had tried to take him and that many men were dead
    He was vicious and a killer, though a youth of twenty four
    And the notches on his pistol numbered one and nineteen more
    One and nineteen more

    Now the stranger started talkin' made it plain to folks around
    Was an Arizona ranger, wouldn't be too long in town
    He was here to take an outlaw back alive or maybe dead
    And he said it didn't matter he was after Texas Red
    After Texas Red

    Wasn't long before this story was relayed to Texas Red
    But the outlaw didn't worry, men that tried before were dead
    Twenty men had tried to take him, twenty men had made a slip
    Twenty one would be the ranger with the big iron on his hip
    Big iron on his hip

    Now the morning passed so quickly it was time for them to meet
    It was twenty past eleven when they walked out in the street
    Folks were watchin' from the windows
    Every body held their breath
    They knew this handsome ranger was about to meet his death
    About to meet his death

    There was twenty feet between them
    When they stopped to make their play
    And the swiftness of the Ranger is still talked about today
    Texas Red had not cleared leather for a bullet fairly ripped
    And the ranger's aim was deadly, with the big iron on his hip
    Big iron on his hip

    It was over in a moment and the folks had gathered 'round
    There before them lay the body of the outlaw on the ground
    Oh, he might have went on livin' but he made one fatal slip
    When he tried to match the ranger with the big iron on his hip
    Big iron on his hip
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    CatMan said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    I live near Bridgend, and I would have thought you are right, particularly with the fallout from the closure of the engine plant, but WAG rather than Johnson are taking the hit on that.

    Labour have a very frosty relationship with the TV broadcast media here in Wales. Local BBC news is very hostile. Drakeford's stock has risen through Covid, but he and the Assembly Government are compared poorly against Johnson's performance, particularly in relation to the "late" opening of retail and hospitality sectors. Still no mandatory mask wearing in Wales, so Drakeford and Gething are being hammered in the media (rightly?) for that.

    Johnson is an enigma here in Wales. Historically the Welsh were hostile to English Tory Toffs, but Johnson seems to transcend that.
    The last poll in Wales showed a big shift back to Labour.I believe it would be a mistake to extrapolate much from Welsh Assembly elections where turnout is much lower and party alleigances much looser. Were I on the electoral roll there, I would support the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party.
    I voted "No" in 1998, but I am a convert now.
    I did not have a vote in Autumn 1997 - but have certainly not changed my mind.Very content if Johnson called a Referendum there to ascertain whether voters still wanted the Assembly. I am firmly of the Left but would vote Tory in a Tory v Plaid contest. Ditto in Scotland re-SNP.
    Again, I'm going to go all HYFUD and show the latest polls on the Wales and the Welsh *Parliament* (It's not an Assembly anymore)

    https://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinwales/2020/06/05/attitudes-to-devolution-and-welsh-independence/

    "If there were a referendum tomorrow on abolishing the Senedd (Welsh Parliament) and this was the question, how would you vote? Should Wales abolish the Senedd (Welsh Parliament)?” The result for this question (with changes since January again in brackets) were:

    Yes: 25% (+1)
    No: 48% (+1)
    Would not vote: 8% (no change)
    Don’t Know: 16% (-1)
    Refused: 3% (-1)"

    The new Barometer poll also repeated the now standard multiple-choice constitutional preference question that has been used in several previous Barometer polls as well as in many other studies. The findings here (with changes since January again in brackets) were:

    No devolved government in Wales: 22% (+5)
    Senedd with fewer powers: 5% (-3)
    Leave things as they are now: 24% (no change)
    Senedd with more powers: 20% (+2)
    Independent Wales: 16% (+2)
    Don’t Know: 12% (-4)
    Refused: 2% (-1)"
    I have seen that poll - but also recall polls leading up to the 1997 Devolution Referendum predicting a Yes win by at least 60% to 40%. In the event, it was 50.3% to 49.7%. My general sense is that the Assembly excites few voters - as reflected in low turnouts.
    I don't agree. The last referendum in Wales, on increasing the powers of the Welsh (as it was then) Assembly passed comfortably.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Welsh_devolution_referendum

    I think the Welsh Independence genie has been let out of the bottle. It will take longer than Scottish Independence, but I think eventually it will happen.
    No it will not
  • The public are more likely to think that the Russian government has interfered in the last 3 general elections, and the Scottish referendum and the EU referendum than not

    Via Opinium
  • This interference is generally perceived to be at the benefit of the conservatives, the Leave side and of the yes to independence side
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    rcs1000 said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    Agree. I've been wondering for the last couple of days, whilst the possible causes of the Spanish spike have been debated, whether nightclubs are a key component - although it could also be that the Spaniards are less reticent about going out generally and have more of a culture of eating out, as a consequence of which they're packing out the bars and restaurants in much higher densities? Though someone who's actually familiar with what conditions are like over there at the moment would be better placed to comment.

    Specifically with regard to nightclubs, I have no time for them either but then again I'm a stick-in-the-mud fortysomething who's not exactly part of their target demographic. They are popular with a lot of people and, as with the arts, they should be propped up until it is safe for them to resume normal operations. Apart from anything else, since this has all started I've read more than one piece of comment on the nightclubs to the effect that, if the sector is allowed to collapse, the venues are a prime target to be bought up on the cheap and re-opened later by organised crime. This makes sense. They'd be somewhere ideal to ply the naive or reckless young with drugs.
    Let’s start with the temperature, it’s currently 28 there’s no way you are going to sleep anytime soon. Therefore eating in or out for most starts at 9:30 and goes into the early hours. Groups gather in restaurants, bars and on terraces until 4 or 5 in the morning, the young look for something more exciting so in the absence of discos etc just gather in larger groups. It’s holiday time but there are no fiestas, people are getting together for the first time in months, they hug and kiss. Yes many are bloody irresponsible it would not be too difficult to enjoy life with just a little thought but maybe alcohol is to blame. The R number is still below one, the ICU cases very low and the deaths negligible so maybe some are saying ‘what’s the problem’

    Even if you shut the bars down at 11 people would carry on on their terrace. It’s frustrating to us more elderly locals but that’s how it is. 10,000 people from Madrid on their way to our small town on Friday what On earth could could Go wrong?
    Hmmmm... I think we all well remember that there have been similar concerns about mass gatherings over here as well - notably the great Bournemouth and Lulworth Cove beach panics - but this theory does sound as though it could be plausible nonetheless. Little knots of sunbathers will consist largely of family household groups and aren't going to be interacting with one another. Sounds like there's a lot more socialising going on in this instance.

    I wonder if there have been any clusters of cases traced back to illegal raves in this country?
    If we are not careful we will nanny ourselves back into the dark ages.
    I'm not fond of the restrictions under which we currently labour either (and I think we could still do with better evidence on masks,) but it seems not unreasonable to conclude that the solution to keeping a lid on this highly infectious disease lies somewhere between sitting in our houses the entire time and carrying on as if nothing had happened. The only question is how much we can get away with.

    The Government's approach appears to be working at the moment, but it also seems appropriate to look at what is happening in other countries to try to preempt any future problems. Frankly, if it turns out at the end of all this that everything can open back up except nightclubs, then that doesn't seem like such a bad result.
    You will still need an outlet for those who would have gone to clubs, illegal raves?
    As a bad dancer and not a fan of loud music I wont miss nightclubs personally but then again I am not 18 -25 . I really dont think the existence of civilisation rests with not having nightclubs. It spretty obvious you need herd immunity from this and NY .London ,Sweden have gone a way to it - others will get there , mask wearing /nightclubs whatever .All that is lost by overly restrictive laws now is common humanity and hope that people will still have jobs
    So, Sweden's done better than us economically, right?

    Err. No. Normality has returned more to places that had lockdowns than didn't.
    And we aren't going to get normality until the rona isn't a menace to public health. I fear that state go away approaches are the very worst of ideas in this crisis guaranteed to ensure that normal is a long long way away.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680

    I get the point, but portraying Nixon as a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war is a bit of a stretch.
    Nixon was a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war.

    Nixon was one of the greatest Presidents of all time . . . who got carried away with Watergate and cover ups and so became regarded as one of the most toxic and worst of all time. People will only ever associate Nixon with Watergate now but its worth remembering just how incredibly successful he was before Watergate.

    If Nixon had been assassinated, JFK-style, in the weeks after his second election victory then I strongly believe history would now be remembering Nixon as one of the greatest Presidents of all time.
    It's now known that Nixon went out of his way to prolong it.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/nixons-vietnam-treachery.html
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disappointing. I would have thought most people are exercising more than before.

    "The public has been snacking more in lockdown and, despite increases in sales of bikes and exercise equipment, overall activity levels appear to have dropped compared to before the pandemic"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-24/experts-warn-over-huge-risk-of-covid-death-in-obese-people-as-gyms-reopen

    But not at all surprising. There will have been a lot of boredom and anxiety eating going on during this period, and the proportion of gym users who've taken up outdoor exercise will be well short of 100%, despite the fact that we've had a lot of good weather.

    This period of enforced inactivity - the prolonged closure of leisure facilities, and prohibition of sports - will likely have undone many years of effort to get the population more active, just as many people have also developed serious chocolate biscuit fixations. Alas, good habits are often as easy to lose as bad habits are hard to give up.
    I've been doing a decent amount of exercise. Ran so many daily 5ks my knee started to protest. Got back into biking which I've pushed further and further - rode from Thornaby just south of the Tees to Newcastle yesterday. Monster ride. Epic.

    But I am depressed and working from home. Which makes snacky goodness not just possible but essential. A weekly beer night. With some midweek wee dram action. OK so I've finally decided that self medication isn't working and need professional attention. But weight management isn't exactly a priority at the moment.
    That's a good ride. I am not up to those currently - recovery from nasty medical treatmenr.

    My (part owned Crossfit) gym reopened today with a BBQ and socially distanced classes, after a pretty comprehensive refurbishment during the lockdown to create new treatment rooms sublet to a sports therapist, a putative cafeteria, install hot water everywhere etc, and with an offer over the last week we already have more members back than we lost. Though history teaches that we should hang on to about 2/3 of people who take offers and pay for induction.

    Different to globo gyms though - they have half the members who never attend; we get nearly half the members in every day.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    I get the point, but portraying Nixon as a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war is a bit of a stretch.
    Nixon was a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war.

    Nixon was one of the greatest Presidents of all time . . . who got carried away with Watergate and cover ups and so became regarded as one of the most toxic and worst of all time. People will only ever associate Nixon with Watergate now but its worth remembering just how incredibly successful he was before Watergate.

    If Nixon had been assassinated, JFK-style, in the weeks after his second election victory then I strongly believe history would now be remembering Nixon as one of the greatest Presidents of all time.
    It's now known that Nixon went out of his way to prolong it.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/nixons-vietnam-treachery.html
    I think it is fair to say his strategy bombed in Vietnam.

    Good night.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Good news! Now the Jeremy can keep saying what he thinks and the cult can keep funding his legal defences and libel payouts. True Socialism in action
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    I get the point, but portraying Nixon as a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war is a bit of a stretch.
    Nixon was a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war.

    Nixon was one of the greatest Presidents of all time . . . who got carried away with Watergate and cover ups and so became regarded as one of the most toxic and worst of all time. People will only ever associate Nixon with Watergate now but its worth remembering just how incredibly successful he was before Watergate.

    If Nixon had been assassinated, JFK-style, in the weeks after his second election victory then I strongly believe history would now be remembering Nixon as one of the greatest Presidents of all time.
    I was around when Nixon was President. Opening with China was his biggest achievement, hailed by Dems & Reps, liberals & (most) conservatives alike. AND you forgot to mention his founding the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) which is applauded by many enviros & progressives.

    His "ending" of Vietnam War, not so much. He did extract US military, but way he it left VERY bad taste in American mouths. AND Nixon & his stodge Spiro Agnew (back when presidents got somebody else to play the Buffoon) certainly did nothing to "bring us together" like that famous sign said back in 1968.

    Even at the height of his electoral glory in November 1972 he was NEVER loved by more than a fringe of weirdos (such as Roger Stone). My old man was a Republican who voted for him three times (1960, 1968, 1972) and never did like the SOB.

    So was NOT shocking when people started flaunting their "Don't Blame Me - I'm From Massachusetts" bumper-stickers in 1973 . . .
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    MattW said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    One would hope that by then Mr Starmer has substantially dealt with that issue, though it may cost him the casually racist part of of his party - who may go to / return to some sort of SWP or Socialist Unity structure, or switch to the Greens, which is were some of the SWP went after their 'keep rape investigations in the party' scandal.

    Suspect his position on Brexit will be quite tactical, given that the Tories will perhaps still be dogmatic, and the LDs may still have their head in a gooseberry bush.
    I was suggesting Mr Johnson's water melon smiles and letter box jokes play well in former, and soon to be former Labour seats.

    Clearly, as two posters have misunderstood that, my mistake!
    "Letter box" isn't racist. No race wears the burqa. No religion either.

    The burqa is cultural not religious or racial. It is oppressive misogyny and should be called out for what it is.

    Anyone who suggests that any race wears the burqa is themselves being racists.

    It is Islamophobic to suggest that Muslims wear the Burqa, only extremists do. Suggesting Islam = Burqa is as ignorant as trying to suggest all Christians are extremists.
    Time to go. I can't read such nonsense without getting annoyed.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Corbyn's fee fund now at 1/4 million.
  • Corbyn's fee fund now at 1/4 million.

    Bunch of utter morons.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    rcs1000 said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    Agree. I've been wondering for the last couple of days, whilst the possible causes of the Spanish spike have been debated, whether nightclubs are a key component - although it could also be that the Spaniards are less reticent about going out generally and have more of a culture of eating out, as a consequence of which they're packing out the bars and restaurants in much higher densities? Though someone who's actually familiar with what conditions are like over there at the moment would be better placed to comment.

    Specifically with regard to nightclubs, I have no time for them either but then again I'm a stick-in-the-mud fortysomething who's not exactly part of their target demographic. They are popular with a lot of people and, as with the arts, they should be propped up until it is safe for them to resume normal operations. Apart from anything else, since this has all started I've read more than one piece of comment on the nightclubs to the effect that, if the sector is allowed to collapse, the venues are a prime target to be bought up on the cheap and re-opened later by organised crime. This makes sense. They'd be somewhere ideal to ply the naive or reckless young with drugs.
    Let’s start with the temperature, it’s currently 28 there’s no way you are going to sleep anytime soon. Therefore eating in or out for most starts at 9:30 and goes into the early hours. Groups gather in restaurants, bars and on terraces until 4 or 5 in the morning, the young look for something more exciting so in the absence of discos etc just gather in larger groups. It’s holiday time but there are no fiestas, people are getting together for the first time in months, they hug and kiss. Yes many are bloody irresponsible it would not be too difficult to enjoy life with just a little thought but maybe alcohol is to blame. The R number is still below one, the ICU cases very low and the deaths negligible so maybe some are saying ‘what’s the problem’

    Even if you shut the bars down at 11 people would carry on on their terrace. It’s frustrating to us more elderly locals but that’s how it is. 10,000 people from Madrid on their way to our small town on Friday what On earth could could Go wrong?
    Hmmmm... I think we all well remember that there have been similar concerns about mass gatherings over here as well - notably the great Bournemouth and Lulworth Cove beach panics - but this theory does sound as though it could be plausible nonetheless. Little knots of sunbathers will consist largely of family household groups and aren't going to be interacting with one another. Sounds like there's a lot more socialising going on in this instance.

    I wonder if there have been any clusters of cases traced back to illegal raves in this country?
    If we are not careful we will nanny ourselves back into the dark ages.
    I'm not fond of the restrictions under which we currently labour either (and I think we could still do with better evidence on masks,) but it seems not unreasonable to conclude that the solution to keeping a lid on this highly infectious disease lies somewhere between sitting in our houses the entire time and carrying on as if nothing had happened. The only question is how much we can get away with.

    The Government's approach appears to be working at the moment, but it also seems appropriate to look at what is happening in other countries to try to preempt any future problems. Frankly, if it turns out at the end of all this that everything can open back up except nightclubs, then that doesn't seem like such a bad result.
    You will still need an outlet for those who would have gone to clubs, illegal raves?
    As a bad dancer and not a fan of loud music I wont miss nightclubs personally but then again I am not 18 -25 . I really dont think the existence of civilisation rests with not having nightclubs. It spretty obvious you need herd immunity from this and NY .London ,Sweden have gone a way to it - others will get there , mask wearing /nightclubs whatever .All that is lost by overly restrictive laws now is common humanity and hope that people will still have jobs
    So, Sweden's done better than us economically, right?

    Err. No. Normality has returned more to places that had lockdowns than didn't.
    And we aren't going to get normality until the rona isn't a menace to public health. I fear that state go away approaches are the very worst of ideas in this crisis guaranteed to ensure that normal is a long long way away.
    That's absolutely right.

    If people don't feel safe, they don't go out. You have de facto, rather than de jure lockdowns.
  • Good news! Now the Jeremy can keep saying what he thinks and the cult can keep funding his legal defences and libel payouts. True Socialism in action
    Can they just fuck off and join the SWP.

    I supported Corbyn until he lost an election, it is not sane for anyone to be supporting him now.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Yes strikingly similar stories.

    And in both cases following the demise of the talented but vulnerable founding member the bands went on to enormous commercial success.
    I used to be a big fan of early Floyd ft Syd, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, but now it sounds like absolute nonsense. Peter Green, in contrast, was a serious musician, and his music with Fleetwood Mac still sounds fantastic today
    Barrett wrote some interesting songs, the very best of them - from his solo album - have a poetically uncanny quality.

    He's still a bit of a folk hero to me, maybe because of his madness.

    But the band was definitely and hugely improved by his leaving, and Gilmour joining. Only that band could have made Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here.
    The solo albums were more of a psychiatric case study than musical entertainment for me - I wanted them to be great, but it's debatable that they should have been released IMO. He was supposed to be beyond impossible to work with in the studio by then, and they left on a couple of bad takes on the first one which I thought was a bit cruel.

    There is a clip of Dave Gilmour playing "Octopus" with his family from about a week a go on Youtube or twitter - very strange to see a compos mentis 70-something sing that with a straight face
    I will still happily listen to Effervescing Elephant, Bike, Here I Go, Gigolo Aunt, and Golden Hair. I love their mix of innocent wonder and dreaming sadness.

    Barrett was also an extremely handsome young man, which adds to the poignancy of his story.

    Bike used to be my answering machine message. Back in the days when I had an answering machine.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    ydoethur said:

    I get the point, but portraying Nixon as a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war is a bit of a stretch.
    Nixon was a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war.

    Nixon was one of the greatest Presidents of all time . . . who got carried away with Watergate and cover ups and so became regarded as one of the most toxic and worst of all time. People will only ever associate Nixon with Watergate now but its worth remembering just how incredibly successful he was before Watergate.

    If Nixon had been assassinated, JFK-style, in the weeks after his second election victory then I strongly believe history would now be remembering Nixon as one of the greatest Presidents of all time.
    It's now known that Nixon went out of his way to prolong it.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/nixons-vietnam-treachery.html
    I think it is fair to say his strategy bombed in Vietnam.

    Good night.
    We're in no place to criticise given our long 'for the sake of it' wars with France.

    I actually don't know of any other examples, but there must be very many. (Sparta during the Peloponnesian war seems a good example, but I'm not so sure of my history)
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Corbyn's fee fund now at 1/4 million.

    Bunch of utter morons.
    Wonder how many are Tories? Who feel - quite rightly - a donation to JC is a contribution to C&UP.
  • Look I can understand supporting Corbyn up until he lost.

    But to support him now, I cannot understand such levels of stupidity.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878

    Good news! Now the Jeremy can keep saying what he thinks and the cult can keep funding his legal defences and libel payouts. True Socialism in action
    Can they just fuck off and join the SWP.

    I supported Corbyn until he lost an election, it is not sane for anyone to be supporting him now.
    So the only thing wrong with Jeremy was he lost an election. Is that really what you are saying?
  • Well done Jezza, you're going to bankrupt the Labour Party
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    LadyG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    Agree. I've been wondering for the last couple of days, whilst the possible causes of the Spanish spike have been debated, whether nightclubs are a key component - although it could also be that the Spaniards are less reticent about going out generally and have more of a culture of eating out, as a consequence of which they're packing out the bars and restaurants in much higher densities? Though someone who's actually familiar with what conditions are like over there at the moment would be better placed to comment.

    Specifically with regard to nightclubs, I have no time for them either but then again I'm a stick-in-the-mud fortysomething who's not exactly part of their target demographic. They are popular with a lot of people and, as with the arts, they should be propped up until it is safe for them to resume normal operations. Apart from anything else, since this has all started I've read more than one piece of comment on the nightclubs to the effect that, if the sector is allowed to collapse, the venues are a prime target to be bought up on the cheap and re-opened later by organised crime. This makes sense. They'd be somewhere ideal to ply the naive or reckless young with drugs.
    Let’s start with the temperature, it’s currently 28 there’s no way you are going to sleep anytime soon. Therefore eating in or out for most starts at 9:30 and goes into the early hours. Groups gather in restaurants, bars and on terraces until 4 or 5 in the morning, the young look for something more exciting so in the absence of discos etc just gather in larger groups. It’s holiday time but there are no fiestas, people are getting together for the first time in months, they hug and kiss. Yes many are bloody irresponsible it would not be too difficult to enjoy life with just a little thought but maybe alcohol is to blame. The R number is still below one, the ICU cases very low and the deaths negligible so maybe some are saying ‘what’s the problem’

    Even if you shut the bars down at 11 people would carry on on their terrace. It’s frustrating to us more elderly locals but that’s how it is. 10,000 people from Madrid on their way to our small town on Friday what On earth could could Go wrong?
    Hmmmm... I think we all well remember that there have been similar concerns about mass gatherings over here as well - notably the great Bournemouth and Lulworth Cove beach panics - but this theory does sound as though it could be plausible nonetheless. Little knots of sunbathers will consist largely of family household groups and aren't going to be interacting with one another. Sounds like there's a lot more socialising going on in this instance.

    I wonder if there have been any clusters of cases traced back to illegal raves in this country?
    If we are not careful we will nanny ourselves back into the dark ages.
    I'm not fond of the restrictions under which we currently labour either (and I think we could still do with better evidence on masks,) but it seems not unreasonable to conclude that the solution to keeping a lid on this highly infectious disease lies somewhere between sitting in our houses the entire time and carrying on as if nothing had happened. The only question is how much we can get away with.

    The Government's approach appears to be working at the moment, but it also seems appropriate to look at what is happening in other countries to try to preempt any future problems. Frankly, if it turns out at the end of all this that everything can open back up except nightclubs, then that doesn't seem like such a bad result.
    You will still need an outlet for those who would have gone to clubs, illegal raves?
    As a bad dancer and not a fan of loud music I wont miss nightclubs personally but then again I am not 18 -25 . I really dont think the existence of civilisation rests with not having nightclubs. It spretty obvious you need herd immunity from this and NY .London ,Sweden have gone a way to it - others will get there , mask wearing /nightclubs whatever .All that is lost by overly restrictive laws now is common humanity and hope that people will still have jobs
    So, Sweden's done better than us economically, right?

    Err. No. Normality has returned more to places that had lockdowns than didn't.
    Sweden HAS done better than us, economically. Stats show they've gone back to normal life quicker, mobility is returning faster, restaurants filling up better. And of course they never closed their schools.
    Unemployment there has reached 10%, and is still rising, while we are now seeing improving trends.

    Sweden PMIs have yet to reach 50, again showing the economy contracting month after month, while ours are back above 50.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I get the point, but portraying Nixon as a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war is a bit of a stretch.
    Nixon was a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war.

    Nixon was one of the greatest Presidents of all time . . . who got carried away with Watergate and cover ups and so became regarded as one of the most toxic and worst of all time. People will only ever associate Nixon with Watergate now but its worth remembering just how incredibly successful he was before Watergate.

    If Nixon had been assassinated, JFK-style, in the weeks after his second election victory then I strongly believe history would now be remembering Nixon as one of the greatest Presidents of all time.
    I was around when Nixon was President. Opening with China was his biggest achievement, hailed by Dems & Reps, liberals & (most) conservatives alike. AND you forgot to mention his founding the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) which is applauded by many enviros & progressives.

    His "ending" of Vietnam War, not so much. He did extract US military, but way he it left VERY bad taste in American mouths. AND Nixon & his stodge Spiro Agnew (back when presidents got somebody else to play the Buffoon) certainly did nothing to "bring us together" like that famous sign said back in 1968.

    Even at the height of his electoral glory in November 1972 he was NEVER loved by more than a fringe of weirdos (such as Roger Stone). My old man was a Republican who voted for him three times (1960, 1968, 1972) and never did like the SOB.

    So was NOT shocking when people started flaunting their "Don't Blame Me - I'm From Massachusetts" bumper-stickers in 1973 . . .
    I didn't forget, I didn't want to go into a longer dragged out post. Yes China, EPA etc Nixon had a lot of great successes in his first term. Of course its worth thinking why Massachusetts was referred to, Nixon was very popular overall.

    At the time I'm referring to if he'd been shot then and we remembered him from then . . . he had an approval rating in January 1973 of 67%

    Not many Presidents have had 67% approval ratings! By the end of 73 of course it was a very different matter!
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    Andy_JS said:

    "Boris must accept that the people do not want to bail out inner-city London
    Voters will not respond well to a city-centric vision for national recovery

    JETHRO ELSDEN" (£)

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/25/boris-must-accept-people-do-not-want-bail-inner-city-london/

    Which is a pity in a way as central london is diverse and ambitious and forward thinking ,Not that bailing out is needed as such but just a chance to get back to normal
    These articles are also economically illiterate. They opine as if "central London" is some distant entity, a kind of wealthy colony on another continent, essentially unconnected to the rest of the UK, so its demise is sad but irrelevant.

    The opposite is the case. London contributes fully 25% of the UK tax take. It is a huge employer. It drags in foreign tourists who then go elsewhere in the UK

    If London starts collapsing, from the inside out, the economic effects on all of us in the UK will be profoundly negative.
  • I'll say it, we made such an error electing Corbyn and I'm embarrassed I ever supported him
  • Posted yesterday so it's not for one of the Sundays.

    Regardless, 8 point lead in that one
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    When we learn Grayling's holidaying on the Isle of Wight and a hundred-year quarantine has been imposed it'll all make sense.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898



    His "ending" of Vietnam War, not so much. He did extract US military, but way he it left VERY bad taste in American mouths. AND Nixon & his stodge Spiro Agnew (back when presidents got somebody else to play the Buffoon) certainly did nothing to "bring us together" like that famous sign said back in 1968.

    Sir, I take great exception at being compared to Spiro Agnew.

    I shall expect an apology or a witty rejoinder in response.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:
    Leading by example.

    Glad the quarantine wasn't delayed until he returned.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249

    MattW said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    One would hope that by then Mr Starmer has substantially dealt with that issue, though it may cost him the casually racist part of of his party - who may go to / return to some sort of SWP or Socialist Unity structure, or switch to the Greens, which is were some of the SWP went after their 'keep rape investigations in the party' scandal.

    Suspect his position on Brexit will be quite tactical, given that the Tories will perhaps still be dogmatic, and the LDs may still have their head in a gooseberry bush.
    I was suggesting Mr Johnson's water melon smiles and letter box jokes play well in former, and soon to be former Labour seats.

    Clearly, as two posters have misunderstood that, my mistake!
    To give you a slightly more serious answer:

    1 - I think that we all know that "watermelon smiles" is from 2 decades ago and is colourful journalistic language. In my view it is acceptable satire of Blair's Imperial Progress through Africa. I think we disagree on that.

    2 - "Letterboxes" - again colourful, but pointing to a very serious issue of the burka and similar as an oppressive garment, which has been highlighted as an issue by the likes of Harriet Harman. Such face coverings are not required by Islam.

    For those attempting to frame the scarf / face covering issue as being only about 'freedom of expression' in the UK and so on, and those women in Iran who have been imprisoned for refusing to follow the imposed dress-code. That's without getting into burkas in Afghanistan etc.

    3 - On the 'the Tories are racist too" stuff, the Muslim Council of Britain put in a comprehensive complaint to the EHCR, which decided that there were insufficient grounds to launch a full scale investigation.

    I agree that the Tories should have had an independent investigation long ago.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    I get the point, but portraying Nixon as a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war is a bit of a stretch.
    Nixon was a supreme statesman who ended the Vietnam war.

    Nixon was one of the greatest Presidents of all time . . . who got carried away with Watergate and cover ups and so became regarded as one of the most toxic and worst of all time. People will only ever associate Nixon with Watergate now but its worth remembering just how incredibly successful he was before Watergate.

    If Nixon had been assassinated, JFK-style, in the weeks after his second election victory then I strongly believe history would now be remembering Nixon as one of the greatest Presidents of all time.
    I was around when Nixon was President. Opening with China was his biggest achievement, hailed by Dems & Reps, liberals & (most) conservatives alike. AND you forgot to mention his founding the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) which is applauded by many enviros & progressives.

    His "ending" of Vietnam War, not so much. He did extract US military, but way he it left VERY bad taste in American mouths. AND Nixon & his stodge Spiro Agnew (back when presidents got somebody else to play the Buffoon) certainly did nothing to "bring us together" like that famous sign said back in 1968.

    Even at the height of his electoral glory in November 1972 he was NEVER loved by more than a fringe of weirdos (such as Roger Stone). My old man was a Republican who voted for him three times (1960, 1968, 1972) and never did like the SOB.

    So was NOT shocking when people started flaunting their "Don't Blame Me - I'm From Massachusetts" bumper-stickers in 1973 . . .
    I didn't forget, I didn't want to go into a longer dragged out post. Yes China, EPA etc Nixon had a lot of great successes in his first term. Of course its worth thinking why Massachusetts was referred to, Nixon was very popular overall.

    At the time I'm referring to if he'd been shot then and we remembered him from then . . . he had an approval rating in January 1973 of 67%

    Not many Presidents have had 67% approval ratings! By the end of 73 of course it was a very different matter!
    Swiftness his fall shows hollowness of his popularity.

    Which Nixon himself recognized; one reason why Watergate happened at all.

    Also a reason why he kept Spiro Agnew on the ticket, despite wanting to dump him in favor of John Connolly, a politico crony who'd previously mastered in abhorrent psychology under Lyndon Johnson). Because he reasoned that NOBODY would want to remove RN from office IF the replacement was Spiro.

    Unfortunately for him, the Vice President suffered his own fall from grace in 1973, leading to HIS resignation and replacement by Gerald Ford. Who when push came to shove, replaced Tricky Dick to the relief of 90% plus of the American people.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    Cabinet ministers making the most of EU travel while they still can...

    Heartwarming.
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