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  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    RH1992 said:

    But to me this is how the system should be working. Spain reports a spike and we act accordingly and swiftly. If we dithered then we'd be making the same mistakes as at the start of the pandemic.

    Most holiday providers have COVID guarantees now but there's always going to be some who lose out, it's a risk you take when you go abroad right now.

    Whack-a-mole is entirely appropriate here. Deal with problems as and when they pop up until they stop popping up.
    Of course it is

    This is UK wide and top marks to HMG for taking this decision
    For goodness sake, Spain was on the radar for 14 days quarantine remaining in place when it was lifted elsewhere (and at the last minute Span). Johnson is behind the 8 ball again.

    Take the blinkers off!
    Err. All the UK lifted the ban and have acted together to close it

    No blinkers needex
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53536471

    Wiley is being cancelled, do we support this decision or is he entitled to free speech?

    Why is he an MBE?!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    Agree. I've been wondering for the last couple of days, whilst the possible causes of the Spanish spike have been debated, whether nightclubs are a key component - although it could also be that the Spaniards are less reticent about going out generally and have more of a culture of eating out, as a consequence of which they're packing out the bars and restaurants in much higher densities? Though someone who's actually familiar with what conditions are like over there at the moment would be better placed to comment.

    Specifically with regard to nightclubs, I have no time for them either but then again I'm a stick-in-the-mud fortysomething who's not exactly part of their target demographic. They are popular with a lot of people and, as with the arts, they should be propped up until it is safe for them to resume normal operations. Apart from anything else, since this has all started I've read more than one piece of comment on the nightclubs to the effect that, if the sector is allowed to collapse, the venues are a prime target to be bought up on the cheap and re-opened later by organised crime. This makes sense. They'd be somewhere ideal to ply the naive or reckless young with drugs.
    Let’s start with the temperature, it’s currently 28 there’s no way you are going to sleep anytime soon. Therefore eating in or out for most starts at 9:30 and goes into the early hours. Groups gather in restaurants, bars and on terraces until 4 or 5 in the morning, the young look for something more exciting so in the absence of discos etc just gather in larger groups. It’s holiday time but there are no fiestas, people are getting together for the first time in months, they hug and kiss. Yes many are bloody irresponsible it would not be too difficult to enjoy life with just a little thought but maybe alcohol is to blame. The R number is still below one, the ICU cases very low and the deaths negligible so maybe some are saying ‘what’s the problem’

    Even if you shut the bars down at 11 people would carry on on their terrace. It’s frustrating to us more elderly locals but that’s how it is. 10,000 people from Madrid on their way to our small town on Friday what On earth could could Go wrong?
    Hmmmm... I think we all well remember that there have been similar concerns about mass gatherings over here as well - notably the great Bournemouth and Lulworth Cove beach panics - but this theory does sound as though it could be plausible nonetheless. Little knots of sunbathers will consist largely of family household groups and aren't going to be interacting with one another. Sounds like there's a lot more socialising going on in this instance.

    I wonder if there have been any clusters of cases traced back to illegal raves in this country?
    If we are not careful we will nanny ourselves back into the dark ages.
    We'll have a vaccine in six months time, and life will then go back to normal. And we'll have - probably - avoided nasty second waves like have been seen in countries that lifted restrictions too rapidly, like Israel or South Africa.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    Agree. I've been wondering for the last couple of days, whilst the possible causes of the Spanish spike have been debated, whether nightclubs are a key component - although it could also be that the Spaniards are less reticent about going out generally and have more of a culture of eating out, as a consequence of which they're packing out the bars and restaurants in much higher densities? Though someone who's actually familiar with what conditions are like over there at the moment would be better placed to comment.

    Specifically with regard to nightclubs, I have no time for them either but then again I'm a stick-in-the-mud fortysomething who's not exactly part of their target demographic. They are popular with a lot of people and, as with the arts, they should be propped up until it is safe for them to resume normal operations. Apart from anything else, since this has all started I've read more than one piece of comment on the nightclubs to the effect that, if the sector is allowed to collapse, the venues are a prime target to be bought up on the cheap and re-opened later by organised crime. This makes sense. They'd be somewhere ideal to ply the naive or reckless young with drugs.
    Let’s start with the temperature, it’s currently 28 there’s no way you are going to sleep anytime soon. Therefore eating in or out for most starts at 9:30 and goes into the early hours. Groups gather in restaurants, bars and on terraces until 4 or 5 in the morning, the young look for something more exciting so in the absence of discos etc just gather in larger groups. It’s holiday time but there are no fiestas, people are getting together for the first time in months, they hug and kiss. Yes many are bloody irresponsible it would not be too difficult to enjoy life with just a little thought but maybe alcohol is to blame. The R number is still below one, the ICU cases very low and the deaths negligible so maybe some are saying ‘what’s the problem’

    Even if you shut the bars down at 11 people would carry on on their terrace. It’s frustrating to us more elderly locals but that’s how it is. 10,000 people from Madrid on their way to our small town on Friday what On earth could could Go wrong?
    Hmmmm... I think we all well remember that there have been similar concerns about mass gatherings over here as well - notably the great Bournemouth and Lulworth Cove beach panics - but this theory does sound as though it could be plausible nonetheless. Little knots of sunbathers will consist largely of family household groups and aren't going to be interacting with one another. Sounds like there's a lot more socialising going on in this instance.

    I wonder if there have been any clusters of cases traced back to illegal raves in this country?
    If we are not careful we will nanny ourselves back into the dark ages.
    Was under impression many PBers already in dark ages - without help from Covid.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited July 2020
    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    RH1992 said:

    But to me this is how the system should be working. Spain reports a spike and we act accordingly and swiftly. If we dithered then we'd be making the same mistakes as at the start of the pandemic.

    Most holiday providers have COVID guarantees now but there's always going to be some who lose out, it's a risk you take when you go abroad right now.

    Whack-a-mole is entirely appropriate here. Deal with problems as and when they pop up until they stop popping up.
    Of course it is

    This is UK wide and top marks to HMG for taking this decision
    For goodness sake, Spain was on the radar for 14 days quarantine remaining in place when it was lifted elsewhere (and at the last minute Span). Johnson is behind the 8 ball again.

    Take the blinkers off!
    I thought Spain with all its mask wearing would be safe - are we sure mask wearing does anything?
    Would you support surgeons not wearing masks during surgery? Because the principle is the same: you don't spread your particles far when you breath or cough.
  • Nicola Sturgeon or Boris Johnson?
    Don’t make me choose! Ultimately I’d be keen to work with both of them where we can to get problems fixed, especially in a time of national crisis.

    Left on suicide watch
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    RH1992 said:

    But to me this is how the system should be working. Spain reports a spike and we act accordingly and swiftly. If we dithered then we'd be making the same mistakes as at the start of the pandemic.

    Most holiday providers have COVID guarantees now but there's always going to be some who lose out, it's a risk you take when you go abroad right now.

    Whack-a-mole is entirely appropriate here. Deal with problems as and when they pop up until they stop popping up.
    Of course it is

    This is UK wide and top marks to HMG for taking this decision
    For goodness sake, Spain was on the radar for 14 days quarantine remaining in place when it was lifted elsewhere (and at the last minute Span). Johnson is behind the 8 ball again.

    Take the blinkers off!
    I thought Spain with all its mask wearing would be safe - are we sure mask wearing does anything?
    Opening the pubs and clubs is currently the issue. I assume the earlier question mark over Spain was reported infection rates, but unlike many experts (some genuine, some only in their own minds) on here, I don't know and that is pure conjecture on my part.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    SONGS OF THE BATTLE GROUND (AND POSSIBLE VP) STATES - NEW MEXICO

    BILLY THE KID
    Bill Dean & Paul Nelson (and performed by Ry Cooder)

    I'll sing you a song about Billy the Kid
    I'll sing the record of deeds that he did
    Way out in New Mexico a long time ago
    When a (G) man's only friend was his his own .44

    Now when Billy the Kid was a very young lad
    In old Silver City he went to the bad
    Way out west with a knife in his hand
    At the age of twelve years he killed his first man

    Fair Mexican maidens play guitars and sing
    Songs about Billy their boy bandit king
    Before his young manhood reached its sad end
    He'd a notch on his pistol for twenty one men

    It was on one black night that poor Billy died
    He said to his friends, I'm not satisfied
    There's twenty one men that I've put bullets through
    And sheriff Pat Garrett's gonna make twenty-two

    Well, this is how Billy the Kid met his fate
    A big moon was shining and the hour was late
    Shot down by Pat Garrett, Silver City's best friend
    The poor outlaw's life have reached its sad end

    From a town known as Wheeling West Virginia
    Rode a boy with a six-gun in his hand
    And his daring life of crime
    Made him a legend in his time
    East and West of the Rio Grande

    Well he started with a bank in Colorado
    In the pocket of his vest, a Colt he hid
    And his age and his size took the teller by surprise
    And word spread of Billy the Kid

    Well he never traveled heavy
    Yes, he always rode alone
    And he soon put other older guns to shame
    And he never had a sweetheart
    And he never had a home
    But the cowboy and the rancher knew his name

    Well he robbed his way from Utah to Oklahoma
    And the law just could not seem to track him down
    And it served his legend well
    For the folks they'd love to tell 'bout when Billy the Kid came to town

    Well one cold day a posse captured Billy
    And the judge said "String 'I'm up for what he did!"
    And the cowboys and their kin like the sea, came pourin' in to watch the hangin' of Billy the Kid

    Well he never traveled heavy
    Yes, he always rode alone
    And he soon put other older guns to shame
    And he never had a sweetheart
    But he finally found a home
    Underneath the boot hill grave that bears his name

    From a town known as Oyster Bay, Long Island
    Rode a boy with a six-pack in his hand
    And his daring life of crime
    Made him a legend in his time
    East and West of the Rio Grande

    Billy Joel ~ The Ballad of the Billy the Kid
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    rcs1000 said:

    RH1992 said:

    But to me this is how the system should be working. Spain reports a spike and we act accordingly and swiftly. If we dithered then we'd be making the same mistakes as at the start of the pandemic.

    Most holiday providers have COVID guarantees now but there's always going to be some who lose out, it's a risk you take when you go abroad right now.

    Whack-a-mole is entirely appropriate here. Deal with problems as and when they pop up until they stop popping up.
    Of course it is

    This is UK wide and top marks to HMG for taking this decision
    For goodness sake, Spain was on the radar for 14 days quarantine remaining in place when it was lifted elsewhere (and at the last minute Span). Johnson is behind the 8 ball again.

    Take the blinkers off!
    I thought Spain with all its mask wearing would be safe - are we sure mask wearing does anything?
    Would you support surgeons not wearing masks during surgery? Because the principle is the same: you don't spread your particles far when you breath or cough.
    for all the good it has done Spain . Masks do sod all because most people (especially those who dont want to wear them do not use them properly. All that disgusting garbage as well .
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/anneliese-dodds-putting-up-taxes-would-not-be-sensible-we-must-go-for-growth-tmjccfb8p

    Labour has come to a view on taxation then. This is sure to piss off the left.

    Anneliese Dodds: Putting up taxes would not be sensible, we must go for growth

    The Tories will have done quite a bit of putting up taxes by the time Labour get back into power.
  • justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    Why do you perceive 3-4%?

    We must not forget the analysis posted here on PB that the red wall is moving back to Labour more than the rest of the country, I suppose not surprising if they are more naturally Labour anyway and many of the millions that stayed at home might not feel so inclined again
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones quite often deriving more benefit from it, and also generally only rarely returning to the drug afterwards.
    Yes, both fascinating stories. At least PG came back to some kind of normality in his later years. To be fair though, he loved the drugs - in the MOTW doc he doesn't really seem to regret taking LSD at all!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    This is a bitter blow to Spain's tourist industry
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
  • Labour up to 38% again, Tories down to 42%.

    Labour still not hit 40% consistently, still more room to grow
  • Conservative lead falls back to 4 points short lived boost to the government’s rating comes to an end

    The Conservatives have lost two points while Labour have gained two, taking the overall Tory lead from 8 points to 4. The Lib Dems and Greens remain unchanged on last week.

    Approval of the government’s handling of the crisis drops

    Last week the government’s net approval rating for the handling of the Coronavirus crisis was its most positive rating since mid-May, at a net approval of -5. However, this week approval worsened and has now dropped to a net approval of -15. Disapproval rose from 43% last week to 46% this week, while approval has fallen from 38% last week to 32% this week.

    Boris Johnson’s approval rating remains underwater with 36% approving and 45% disapproving. His net rating had dropped from -4 last week to -8 this week.

    Keir Starmer remains firmly in positive territory and fairly stable compared to last week. 44% approve of his job performance, while 22% disapprove. His net rating has increase from +20 last week to +22 this week. .
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816

    This is a bitter blow to Spain's tourist industry

    yes exactly - causes untold misery for all that rely on it and obviously stops people having a deserved break as well .
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    rcs1000 said:

    RH1992 said:

    But to me this is how the system should be working. Spain reports a spike and we act accordingly and swiftly. If we dithered then we'd be making the same mistakes as at the start of the pandemic.

    Most holiday providers have COVID guarantees now but there's always going to be some who lose out, it's a risk you take when you go abroad right now.

    Whack-a-mole is entirely appropriate here. Deal with problems as and when they pop up until they stop popping up.
    Of course it is

    This is UK wide and top marks to HMG for taking this decision
    For goodness sake, Spain was on the radar for 14 days quarantine remaining in place when it was lifted elsewhere (and at the last minute Span). Johnson is behind the 8 ball again.

    Take the blinkers off!
    I thought Spain with all its mask wearing would be safe - are we sure mask wearing does anything?
    Would you support surgeons not wearing masks during surgery? Because the principle is the same: you don't spread your particles far when you breath or cough.
    for all the good it has done Spain . Masks do sod all because most people (especially those who dont want to wear them do not use them properly. All that disgusting garbage as well .
    You are talking rot, the main reason for the rise in infections is because the kids won’t wear them in social situations unless the police are physically present. I don’t know where you are getting your information input on spain,
  • Starmer increasing his rating, Johnson dropped 4 points
  • The government’s handling of the Coronavirus crisis drops from a net approval of -5 to a
    net approval of -15

    Big fall
  • But is it an outlier? More polls to come
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    100 days to go until the US presidential election.

    At current rates the US will have recorded 250,000 covid-19 deaths by then. :disappointed:
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    This is a bitter blow to Spain's tourist industry

    yes exactly - causes untold misery for all that rely on it and obviously stops people having a deserved break as well .
    Would be interested in any info on how many Brits have come out to Spain, on the ground in our residential area it’s very low.
  • Starmer has such a high neither/don't know rating, many remain unconvinced either way - I wonder if EHRC/kicking Corbyn out will change those ratings
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816

    The government’s handling of the Coronavirus crisis drops from a net approval of -5 to a
    net approval of -15

    Big fall

    yes to do with making everyone wear a mask when in a shop- big draconian law with no effect - could half see the logic if pubs etc were shut but just looks like weak government
  • On the question of who would be the best prime minister, Johnson and Starmer remain close with 35% choosing the incumbent, 33% choosing the Labour leader and 16% answering “none of these”.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Conservative lead falls back to 4 points short lived boost to the government’s rating comes to an end

    The Conservatives have lost two points while Labour have gained two, taking the overall Tory lead from 8 points to 4. The Lib Dems and Greens remain unchanged on last week.

    Approval of the government’s handling of the crisis drops

    Last week the government’s net approval rating for the handling of the Coronavirus crisis was its most positive rating since mid-May, at a net approval of -5. However, this week approval worsened and has now dropped to a net approval of -15. Disapproval rose from 43% last week to 46% this week, while approval has fallen from 38% last week to 32% this week.

    Boris Johnson’s approval rating remains underwater with 36% approving and 45% disapproving. His net rating had dropped from -4 last week to -8 this week.

    Keir Starmer remains firmly in positive territory and fairly stable compared to last week. 44% approve of his job performance, while 22% disapprove. His net rating has increase from +20 last week to +22 this week. .

    Those approval ratings would be very siginificant if held in the run-up to a GE.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Interesting times with Spain. One of my team is Spanish and is home with her family in Murcia. Due back in a week - ok so like all of us we've been mainly WFH but could be complicated. As for Mrs RP and the kids "unless easyJet cancel the flights we're going". Which is fair. 2 weeks self-isolation not a major problem when she's a TA and its the holidays!

    What it really does reinforce to me is that this bloody virus isn't going away fast and the "get back to work and spending money you plebs" policy from the government is going to increasingly backfire - badly - as it increasingly sounds desperate and flying in the face of the obvious. If nothing else having to wear masks whilst shopping really reinforces things aren't remotely normal.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    SONGS OF THE BATTLE GROUND (AND POSSIBLE VP) STATES - NEW MEXICO

    BILLY THE KID
    Bill Dean & Paul Nelson (and performed by Ry Cooder)

    I'll sing you a song about Billy the Kid
    I'll sing the record of deeds that he did
    Way out in New Mexico a long time ago
    When a (G) man's only friend was his his own .44

    Now when Billy the Kid was a very young lad
    In old Silver City he went to the bad
    Way out west with a knife in his hand
    At the age of twelve years he killed his first man

    Fair Mexican maidens play guitars and sing
    Songs about Billy their boy bandit king
    Before his young manhood reached its sad end
    He'd a notch on his pistol for twenty one men

    It was on one black night that poor Billy died
    He said to his friends, I'm not satisfied
    There's twenty one men that I've put bullets through
    And sheriff Pat Garrett's gonna make twenty-two

    Well, this is how Billy the Kid met his fate
    A big moon was shining and the hour was late
    Shot down by Pat Garrett, Silver City's best friend
    The poor outlaw's life have reached its sad end

    From a town known as Wheeling West Virginia
    Rode a boy with a six-gun in his hand
    And his daring life of crime
    Made him a legend in his time
    East and West of the Rio Grande

    Well he started with a bank in Colorado
    In the pocket of his vest, a Colt he hid
    And his age and his size took the teller by surprise
    And word spread of Billy the Kid

    Well he never traveled heavy
    Yes, he always rode alone
    And he soon put other older guns to shame
    And he never had a sweetheart
    And he never had a home
    But the cowboy and the rancher knew his name

    Well he robbed his way from Utah to Oklahoma
    And the law just could not seem to track him down
    And it served his legend well
    For the folks they'd love to tell 'bout when Billy the Kid came to town

    Well one cold day a posse captured Billy
    And the judge said "String 'I'm up for what he did!"
    And the cowboys and their kin like the sea, came pourin' in to watch the hangin' of Billy the Kid

    Well he never traveled heavy
    Yes, he always rode alone
    And he soon put other older guns to shame
    And he never had a sweetheart
    But he finally found a home
    Underneath the boot hill grave that bears his name

    From a town known as Oyster Bay, Long Island
    Rode a boy with a six-pack in his hand
    And his daring life of crime
    Made him a legend in his time
    East and West of the Rio Grande

    Billy Joel ~ The Ballad of the Billy the Kid
    BJ song clearly NOT about historic William Bonney aka Billy the Kid. Who was born in New York City (Manhattan) - NOT Wheeling, West Virginia (which was still in VA when WB was born). Who was shot to death - NOT hanged - by Pat Garrett; the Kid's reputed last words were "¿Quién es? ¿Quién es?" ("Who is it? Who is it?")

    As for the "boy" from "Oyster Bay, Long Island" that sounds like Theodore Roosevelt, esp. IF you consider imperialism, racisim & war-mongering crimes.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    Johnson is a hero to some working class voters in the same way that many people in the East End of London liked the Kray twins.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    RH1992 said:

    But to me this is how the system should be working. Spain reports a spike and we act accordingly and swiftly. If we dithered then we'd be making the same mistakes as at the start of the pandemic.

    Most holiday providers have COVID guarantees now but there's always going to be some who lose out, it's a risk you take when you go abroad right now.

    Whack-a-mole is entirely appropriate here. Deal with problems as and when they pop up until they stop popping up.
    Of course it is

    This is UK wide and top marks to HMG for taking this decision
    For goodness sake, Spain was on the radar for 14 days quarantine remaining in place when it was lifted elsewhere (and at the last minute Span). Johnson is behind the 8 ball again.

    Take the blinkers off!
    I thought Spain with all its mask wearing would be safe - are we sure mask wearing does anything?
    It does help - most of the outbreaks are occurring in situations where masks are not worn - parties, family reunions, discos, and some among agricultural workers living in close proximity.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    I live near Bridgend, and I would have thought you are right, particularly with the fallout from the closure of the engine plant, but WAG rather than Johnson are taking the hit on that.

    Labour have a very frosty relationship with the TV broadcast media here in Wales. Local BBC news is very hostile. Drakeford's stock has risen through Covid, but he and the Assembly Government are compared poorly against Johnson's performance, particularly in relation to the "late" opening of retail and hospitality sectors. Still no mandatory mask wearing in Wales, so Drakeford and Gething are being hammered in the media (rightly?) for that.

    Johnson is an enigma here in Wales. Historically the Welsh were hostile to English Tory Toffs, but Johnson seems to transcend that.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/anneliese-dodds-putting-up-taxes-would-not-be-sensible-we-must-go-for-growth-tmjccfb8p

    Labour has come to a view on taxation then. This is sure to piss off the left.

    Anneliese Dodds: Putting up taxes would not be sensible, we must go for growth

    Lol - annelise backing boris!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Interesting times with Spain. One of my team is Spanish and is home with her family in Murcia. Due back in a week - ok so like all of us we've been mainly WFH but could be complicated. As for Mrs RP and the kids "unless easyJet cancel the flights we're going". Which is fair. 2 weeks self-isolation not a major problem when she's a TA and its the holidays!

    What it really does reinforce to me is that this bloody virus isn't going away fast and the "get back to work and spending money you plebs" policy from the government is going to increasingly backfire - badly - as it increasingly sounds desperate and flying in the face of the obvious. If nothing else having to wear masks whilst shopping really reinforces things aren't remotely normal.

    "If nothing else having to wear masks whilst shopping really reinforces things aren't remotely normal."

    That's why they introduced it imho. Nothing to do with reducing transmission in itself.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    Johnson is a hero to some working class voters in the same way that many people in the East End of London liked the Kray twins.
    Comparable villainy in my book!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Yes strikingly similar stories.

    And in both cases following the demise of the talented but vulnerable founding member the bands went on to enormous commercial success.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Seems like a city shrewdie... who bankrolled Ed Miliband
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Interesting times with Spain. One of my team is Spanish and is home with her family in Murcia. Due back in a week - ok so like all of us we've been mainly WFH but could be complicated. As for Mrs RP and the kids "unless easyJet cancel the flights we're going". Which is fair. 2 weeks self-isolation not a major problem when she's a TA and its the holidays!

    What it really does reinforce to me is that this bloody virus isn't going away fast and the "get back to work and spending money you plebs" policy from the government is going to increasingly backfire - badly - as it increasingly sounds desperate and flying in the face of the obvious. If nothing else having to wear masks whilst shopping really reinforces things aren't remotely normal.

    Murcia seems to be suffering from having such a low initial wave of infections, not scientific but a possibility. Whereabouts is she or did you mean Murcia city?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    I find it hard to imagine a President that has not managed to inspire anyone along the way.

    Trump's an idiot appealing to idiots. Biden's an idiot appealing to those that see through him.
    (Sweeping generalities here - Trump supporters are clearly not all idiots for example)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Interesting how this Spanish position will impact on the European and Europa cup games due in August
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    This is a bitter blow to Spain's tourist industry

    yes exactly - causes untold misery for all that rely on it and obviously stops people having a deserved break as well .
    Mrs RP and the childs going over to Alicante next Sunday. The way her dad has described what they can and can't do whilst out there I'm not sure there is much of a tourist industry to miss any Brits who choose not to travel.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    nichomar said:

    Interesting times with Spain. One of my team is Spanish and is home with her family in Murcia. Due back in a week - ok so like all of us we've been mainly WFH but could be complicated. As for Mrs RP and the kids "unless easyJet cancel the flights we're going". Which is fair. 2 weeks self-isolation not a major problem when she's a TA and its the holidays!

    What it really does reinforce to me is that this bloody virus isn't going away fast and the "get back to work and spending money you plebs" policy from the government is going to increasingly backfire - badly - as it increasingly sounds desperate and flying in the face of the obvious. If nothing else having to wear masks whilst shopping really reinforces things aren't remotely normal.

    Murcia seems to be suffering from having such a low initial wave of infections, not scientific but a possibility. Whereabouts is she or did you mean Murcia city?
    ie you need herd immunity - no point in draconian measures because it has to go through a populations sometime
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    Agree. I've been wondering for the last couple of days, whilst the possible causes of the Spanish spike have been debated, whether nightclubs are a key component - although it could also be that the Spaniards are less reticent about going out generally and have more of a culture of eating out, as a consequence of which they're packing out the bars and restaurants in much higher densities? Though someone who's actually familiar with what conditions are like over there at the moment would be better placed to comment.

    Specifically with regard to nightclubs, I have no time for them either but then again I'm a stick-in-the-mud fortysomething who's not exactly part of their target demographic. They are popular with a lot of people and, as with the arts, they should be propped up until it is safe for them to resume normal operations. Apart from anything else, since this has all started I've read more than one piece of comment on the nightclubs to the effect that, if the sector is allowed to collapse, the venues are a prime target to be bought up on the cheap and re-opened later by organised crime. This makes sense. They'd be somewhere ideal to ply the naive or reckless young with drugs.
    Let’s start with the temperature, it’s currently 28 there’s no way you are going to sleep anytime soon. Therefore eating in or out for most starts at 9:30 and goes into the early hours. Groups gather in restaurants, bars and on terraces until 4 or 5 in the morning, the young look for something more exciting so in the absence of discos etc just gather in larger groups. It’s holiday time but there are no fiestas, people are getting together for the first time in months, they hug and kiss. Yes many are bloody irresponsible it would not be too difficult to enjoy life with just a little thought but maybe alcohol is to blame. The R number is still below one, the ICU cases very low and the deaths negligible so maybe some are saying ‘what’s the problem’

    Even if you shut the bars down at 11 people would carry on on their terrace. It’s frustrating to us more elderly locals but that’s how it is. 10,000 people from Madrid on their way to our small town on Friday what On earth could could Go wrong?
    Hmmmm... I think we all well remember that there have been similar concerns about mass gatherings over here as well - notably the great Bournemouth and Lulworth Cove beach panics - but this theory does sound as though it could be plausible nonetheless. Little knots of sunbathers will consist largely of family household groups and aren't going to be interacting with one another. Sounds like there's a lot more socialising going on in this instance.

    I wonder if there have been any clusters of cases traced back to illegal raves in this country?
    If we are not careful we will nanny ourselves back into the dark ages.
    I'm not fond of the restrictions under which we currently labour either (and I think we could still do with better evidence on masks,) but it seems not unreasonable to conclude that the solution to keeping a lid on this highly infectious disease lies somewhere between sitting in our houses the entire time and carrying on as if nothing had happened. The only question is how much we can get away with.

    The Government's approach appears to be working at the moment, but it also seems appropriate to look at what is happening in other countries to try to preempt any future problems. Frankly, if it turns out at the end of all this that everything can open back up except nightclubs, then that doesn't seem like such a bad result.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    Why do you perceive 3-4%?

    We must not forget the analysis posted here on PB that the red wall is moving back to Labour more than the rest of the country, I suppose not surprising if they are more naturally Labour anyway and many of the millions that stayed at home might not feel so inclined again
    I am well aware of the red wall analysis but the evidence there is far from clear. Tonight's Opinium poll shows a pro- Labour swing of almost 4% since December 2019. Were that to be the outcome of the next election across GB, I see little chance of Labour failing to recover ground lost in Wales under Corbyn in 2019.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775

    Interesting how this Spanish position will impact on the European and Europa cup games due in August

    Armada II is off as well.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,599
    edited July 2020
    This is disappointing. I would have thought most people are exercising more than before.

    "The public has been snacking more in lockdown and, despite increases in sales of bikes and exercise equipment, overall activity levels appear to have dropped compared to before the pandemic"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-24/experts-warn-over-huge-risk-of-covid-death-in-obese-people-as-gyms-reopen
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    Johnson is a hero to some working class voters in the same way that many people in the East End of London liked the Kray twins.
    Comparable villainy in my book!

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    Johnson is a hero to some working class voters in the same way that many people in the East End of London liked the Kray twins.
    Comparable villainy in my book!

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    Johnson is a hero to some working class voters in the same way that many people in the East End of London liked the Kray twins.
    Comparable villainy in my book!
    Really
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Don't get this whole hedge manager business - who'd have thought there was quite SO much money in supervising shrubbery?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Yes strikingly similar stories.

    And in both cases following the demise of the talented but vulnerable founding member the bands went on to enormous commercial success.
    I used to be a big fan of early Floyd ft Syd, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, but now it sounds like absolute nonsense. Peter Green, in contrast, was a serious musician, and his music with Fleetwood Mac still sounds fantastic today
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    Agree. I've been wondering for the last couple of days, whilst the possible causes of the Spanish spike have been debated, whether nightclubs are a key component - although it could also be that the Spaniards are less reticent about going out generally and have more of a culture of eating out, as a consequence of which they're packing out the bars and restaurants in much higher densities? Though someone who's actually familiar with what conditions are like over there at the moment would be better placed to comment.

    Specifically with regard to nightclubs, I have no time for them either but then again I'm a stick-in-the-mud fortysomething who's not exactly part of their target demographic. They are popular with a lot of people and, as with the arts, they should be propped up until it is safe for them to resume normal operations. Apart from anything else, since this has all started I've read more than one piece of comment on the nightclubs to the effect that, if the sector is allowed to collapse, the venues are a prime target to be bought up on the cheap and re-opened later by organised crime. This makes sense. They'd be somewhere ideal to ply the naive or reckless young with drugs.
    Let’s start with the temperature, it’s currently 28 there’s no way you are going to sleep anytime soon. Therefore eating in or out for most starts at 9:30 and goes into the early hours. Groups gather in restaurants, bars and on terraces until 4 or 5 in the morning, the young look for something more exciting so in the absence of discos etc just gather in larger groups. It’s holiday time but there are no fiestas, people are getting together for the first time in months, they hug and kiss. Yes many are bloody irresponsible it would not be too difficult to enjoy life with just a little thought but maybe alcohol is to blame. The R number is still below one, the ICU cases very low and the deaths negligible so maybe some are saying ‘what’s the problem’

    Even if you shut the bars down at 11 people would carry on on their terrace. It’s frustrating to us more elderly locals but that’s how it is. 10,000 people from Madrid on their way to our small town on Friday what On earth could could Go wrong?
    Hmmmm... I think we all well remember that there have been similar concerns about mass gatherings over here as well - notably the great Bournemouth and Lulworth Cove beach panics - but this theory does sound as though it could be plausible nonetheless. Little knots of sunbathers will consist largely of family household groups and aren't going to be interacting with one another. Sounds like there's a lot more socialising going on in this instance.

    I wonder if there have been any clusters of cases traced back to illegal raves in this country?
    If we are not careful we will nanny ourselves back into the dark ages.
    I'm not fond of the restrictions under which we currently labour either (and I think we could still do with better evidence on masks,) but it seems not unreasonable to conclude that the solution to keeping a lid on this highly infectious disease lies somewhere between sitting in our houses the entire time and carrying on as if nothing had happened. The only question is how much we can get away with.

    The Government's approach appears to be working at the moment, but it also seems appropriate to look at what is happening in other countries to try to preempt any future problems. Frankly, if it turns out at the end of all this that everything can open back up except nightclubs, then that doesn't seem like such a bad result.
    You will still need an outlet for those who would have gone to clubs, illegal raves?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Was there ever a resolution to the concern that all UK deaths of people who had tested positive were being counted as CV-19, even if they died later from other causes?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    There is only 1 of 40 seats for Wales within the statutory quota for electorate size. (1 too big the other 38 too small).
    So we can say that virtually none of them will exist in anything like their current configuration.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    Agree. I've been wondering for the last couple of days, whilst the possible causes of the Spanish spike have been debated, whether nightclubs are a key component - although it could also be that the Spaniards are less reticent about going out generally and have more of a culture of eating out, as a consequence of which they're packing out the bars and restaurants in much higher densities? Though someone who's actually familiar with what conditions are like over there at the moment would be better placed to comment.

    Specifically with regard to nightclubs, I have no time for them either but then again I'm a stick-in-the-mud fortysomething who's not exactly part of their target demographic. They are popular with a lot of people and, as with the arts, they should be propped up until it is safe for them to resume normal operations. Apart from anything else, since this has all started I've read more than one piece of comment on the nightclubs to the effect that, if the sector is allowed to collapse, the venues are a prime target to be bought up on the cheap and re-opened later by organised crime. This makes sense. They'd be somewhere ideal to ply the naive or reckless young with drugs.
    Let’s start with the temperature, it’s currently 28 there’s no way you are going to sleep anytime soon. Therefore eating in or out for most starts at 9:30 and goes into the early hours. Groups gather in restaurants, bars and on terraces until 4 or 5 in the morning, the young look for something more exciting so in the absence of discos etc just gather in larger groups. It’s holiday time but there are no fiestas, people are getting together for the first time in months, they hug and kiss. Yes many are bloody irresponsible it would not be too difficult to enjoy life with just a little thought but maybe alcohol is to blame. The R number is still below one, the ICU cases very low and the deaths negligible so maybe some are saying ‘what’s the problem’

    Even if you shut the bars down at 11 people would carry on on their terrace. It’s frustrating to us more elderly locals but that’s how it is. 10,000 people from Madrid on their way to our small town on Friday what On earth could could Go wrong?
    Hmmmm... I think we all well remember that there have been similar concerns about mass gatherings over here as well - notably the great Bournemouth and Lulworth Cove beach panics - but this theory does sound as though it could be plausible nonetheless. Little knots of sunbathers will consist largely of family household groups and aren't going to be interacting with one another. Sounds like there's a lot more socialising going on in this instance.

    I wonder if there have been any clusters of cases traced back to illegal raves in this country?
    If we are not careful we will nanny ourselves back into the dark ages.
    I'm not fond of the restrictions under which we currently labour either (and I think we could still do with better evidence on masks,) but it seems not unreasonable to conclude that the solution to keeping a lid on this highly infectious disease lies somewhere between sitting in our houses the entire time and carrying on as if nothing had happened. The only question is how much we can get away with.

    The Government's approach appears to be working at the moment, but it also seems appropriate to look at what is happening in other countries to try to preempt any future problems. Frankly, if it turns out at the end of all this that everything can open back up except nightclubs, then that doesn't seem like such a bad result.
    You will still need an outlet for those who would have gone to clubs, illegal raves?
    Brixton block parties? There was an illegal rave in the woods near my in laws the other day
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    This is a bitter blow to Spain's tourist industry

    yes exactly - causes untold misery for all that rely on it and obviously stops people having a deserved break as well .
    Mrs RP and the childs going over to Alicante next Sunday. The way her dad has described what they can and can't do whilst out there I'm not sure there is much of a tourist industry to miss any Brits who choose not to travel.
    They won’t be missed until mid September when the bulk of the spanish have gone back to Madrid and Murcia then it will really bite
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    Johnson is a hero to some working class voters in the same way that many people in the East End of London liked the Kray twins.
    Comparable villainy in my book!
    Charming & amusing even when nailing your head to the floor?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    Interesting times with Spain. One of my team is Spanish and is home with her family in Murcia. Due back in a week - ok so like all of us we've been mainly WFH but could be complicated. As for Mrs RP and the kids "unless easyJet cancel the flights we're going". Which is fair. 2 weeks self-isolation not a major problem when she's a TA and its the holidays!

    What it really does reinforce to me is that this bloody virus isn't going away fast and the "get back to work and spending money you plebs" policy from the government is going to increasingly backfire - badly - as it increasingly sounds desperate and flying in the face of the obvious. If nothing else having to wear masks whilst shopping really reinforces things aren't remotely normal.

    "If nothing else having to wear masks whilst shopping really reinforces things aren't remotely normal."

    That's why they introduced it imho. Nothing to do with reducing transmission in itself.
    Huh? This government are *desperate* for normal. Go back to the office. Buy Pret. Go to the pub. Spend money. Send your kids back into crowded schools in September. Why would they needlessly impose masks now to derail all that?

    I despise wearing a mask. Its all the things the Keep Britain Free wazzocks say it is. It makes shopping and travelling by train utterly utterly miserable. But unlike those selfish cockwombles I'm wearing one without question because we have to. Collectively. It's called society.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    Johnson is a hero to some working class voters in the same way that many people in the East End of London liked the Kray twins.
    Comparable villainy in my book!

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    Johnson is a hero to some working class voters in the same way that many people in the East End of London liked the Kray twins.
    Comparable villainy in my book!

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    Johnson is a hero to some working class voters in the same way that many people in the East End of London liked the Kray twins.
    Comparable villainy in my book!
    Really
    Jack "the hat"McVitie might have disagreed with me.

    From your post it seems I am so convinced I said it three times!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    nichomar said:

    Interesting times with Spain. One of my team is Spanish and is home with her family in Murcia. Due back in a week - ok so like all of us we've been mainly WFH but could be complicated. As for Mrs RP and the kids "unless easyJet cancel the flights we're going". Which is fair. 2 weeks self-isolation not a major problem when she's a TA and its the holidays!

    What it really does reinforce to me is that this bloody virus isn't going away fast and the "get back to work and spending money you plebs" policy from the government is going to increasingly backfire - badly - as it increasingly sounds desperate and flying in the face of the obvious. If nothing else having to wear masks whilst shopping really reinforces things aren't remotely normal.

    Murcia seems to be suffering from having such a low initial wave of infections, not scientific but a possibility. Whereabouts is she or did you mean Murcia city?
    Not sure exatly where her folks are, small village nearby I believe.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited July 2020
    isam said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones quite often deriving more benefit from it, and also generally only rarely returning to the drug afterwards.
    Yes, both fascinating stories. At least PG came back to some kind of normality in his later years. To be fair though, he loved the drugs - in the MOTW doc he doesn't really seem to regret taking LSD at all!
    Yes, in Peter Green's case I don't think he understood that this involuntary and so more negative form of LSD experience had changed him for the aggressive worse ; Syd Barrett just disappeared, looking after his sister's house. Kinabalu makes the good point that once these maybe most sensitive souls were basically dispensed with, the bands went on to storming commercial success.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    I live near Bridgend, and I would have thought you are right, particularly with the fallout from the closure of the engine plant, but WAG rather than Johnson are taking the hit on that.

    Labour have a very frosty relationship with the TV broadcast media here in Wales. Local BBC news is very hostile. Drakeford's stock has risen through Covid, but he and the Assembly Government are compared poorly against Johnson's performance, particularly in relation to the "late" opening of retail and hospitality sectors. Still no mandatory mask wearing in Wales, so Drakeford and Gething are being hammered in the media (rightly?) for that.

    Johnson is an enigma here in Wales. Historically the Welsh were hostile to English Tory Toffs, but Johnson seems to transcend that.
    The last poll in Wales showed a big shift back to Labour.I believe it would be a mistake to extrapolate much from Welsh Assembly elections where turnout is much lower and party alleigances much looser. Were I on the electoral roll there, I would support the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    Johnson is a hero to some working class voters in the same way that many people in the East End of London liked the Kray twins.
    Comparable villainy in my book!
    Charming & amusing even when nailing your head to the floor?
    Who? Boris or Reggie and Ronnie.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    Interesting times with Spain. One of my team is Spanish and is home with her family in Murcia. Due back in a week - ok so like all of us we've been mainly WFH but could be complicated. As for Mrs RP and the kids "unless easyJet cancel the flights we're going". Which is fair. 2 weeks self-isolation not a major problem when she's a TA and its the holidays!

    What it really does reinforce to me is that this bloody virus isn't going away fast and the "get back to work and spending money you plebs" policy from the government is going to increasingly backfire - badly - as it increasingly sounds desperate and flying in the face of the obvious. If nothing else having to wear masks whilst shopping really reinforces things aren't remotely normal.

    Murcia seems to be suffering from having such a low initial wave of infections, not scientific but a possibility. Whereabouts is she or did you mean Murcia city?
    Not sure exatly where her folks are, small village nearby I believe.
    Hopefully not Totana in total lockdown at present.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Yes strikingly similar stories.

    And in both cases following the demise of the talented but vulnerable founding member the bands went on to enormous commercial success.
    I used to be a big fan of early Floyd ft Syd, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, but now it sounds like absolute nonsense. Peter Green, in contrast, was a serious musician, and his music with Fleetwood Mac still sounds fantastic today
    Sorry, but you're saying that Pink Floyd in contrast were *not* serious musicians? Its an opinion...

    Nick Mason's Saucerful of Secrets. Fantastic band playing fantastic music. And the best thing on their setlist? Vegetable Man, which is literally - and gloriously - nonsense.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    Agree. I've been wondering for the last couple of days, whilst the possible causes of the Spanish spike have been debated, whether nightclubs are a key component - although it could also be that the Spaniards are less reticent about going out generally and have more of a culture of eating out, as a consequence of which they're packing out the bars and restaurants in much higher densities? Though someone who's actually familiar with what conditions are like over there at the moment would be better placed to comment.

    Specifically with regard to nightclubs, I have no time for them either but then again I'm a stick-in-the-mud fortysomething who's not exactly part of their target demographic. They are popular with a lot of people and, as with the arts, they should be propped up until it is safe for them to resume normal operations. Apart from anything else, since this has all started I've read more than one piece of comment on the nightclubs to the effect that, if the sector is allowed to collapse, the venues are a prime target to be bought up on the cheap and re-opened later by organised crime. This makes sense. They'd be somewhere ideal to ply the naive or reckless young with drugs.
    Let’s start with the temperature, it’s currently 28 there’s no way you are going to sleep anytime soon. Therefore eating in or out for most starts at 9:30 and goes into the early hours. Groups gather in restaurants, bars and on terraces until 4 or 5 in the morning, the young look for something more exciting so in the absence of discos etc just gather in larger groups. It’s holiday time but there are no fiestas, people are getting together for the first time in months, they hug and kiss. Yes many are bloody irresponsible it would not be too difficult to enjoy life with just a little thought but maybe alcohol is to blame. The R number is still below one, the ICU cases very low and the deaths negligible so maybe some are saying ‘what’s the problem’

    Even if you shut the bars down at 11 people would carry on on their terrace. It’s frustrating to us more elderly locals but that’s how it is. 10,000 people from Madrid on their way to our small town on Friday what On earth could could Go wrong?
    Hmmmm... I think we all well remember that there have been similar concerns about mass gatherings over here as well - notably the great Bournemouth and Lulworth Cove beach panics - but this theory does sound as though it could be plausible nonetheless. Little knots of sunbathers will consist largely of family household groups and aren't going to be interacting with one another. Sounds like there's a lot more socialising going on in this instance.

    I wonder if there have been any clusters of cases traced back to illegal raves in this country?
    If we are not careful we will nanny ourselves back into the dark ages.
    I'm not fond of the restrictions under which we currently labour either (and I think we could still do with better evidence on masks,) but it seems not unreasonable to conclude that the solution to keeping a lid on this highly infectious disease lies somewhere between sitting in our houses the entire time and carrying on as if nothing had happened. The only question is how much we can get away with.

    The Government's approach appears to be working at the moment, but it also seems appropriate to look at what is happening in other countries to try to preempt any future problems. Frankly, if it turns out at the end of all this that everything can open back up except nightclubs, then that doesn't seem like such a bad result.
    You will still need an outlet for those who would have gone to clubs, illegal raves?
    As a bad dancer and not a fan of loud music I wont miss nightclubs personally but then again I am not 18 -25 . I really dont think the existence of civilisation rests with not having nightclubs. It spretty obvious you need herd immunity from this and NY .London ,Sweden have gone a way to it - others will get there , mask wearing /nightclubs whatever .All that is lost by overly restrictive laws now is common humanity and hope that people will still have jobs
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Was there ever a resolution to the concern that all UK deaths of people who had tested positive were being counted as CV-19, even if they died later from other causes?

    No - the enquiry into that has vanished into the mists.

    My guess is that PHE would find the revision to be embarrassing and various people are trying to run round and hope something turns up. Before they have to release revised figures.

    At that point there will be a political explosion of sorts - up to and including twitter hate mobs.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    I live near Bridgend, and I would have thought you are right, particularly with the fallout from the closure of the engine plant, but WAG rather than Johnson are taking the hit on that.

    Labour have a very frosty relationship with the TV broadcast media here in Wales. Local BBC news is very hostile. Drakeford's stock has risen through Covid, but he and the Assembly Government are compared poorly against Johnson's performance, particularly in relation to the "late" opening of retail and hospitality sectors. Still no mandatory mask wearing in Wales, so Drakeford and Gething are being hammered in the media (rightly?) for that.

    Johnson is an enigma here in Wales. Historically the Welsh were hostile to English Tory Toffs, but Johnson seems to transcend that.
    The last poll in Wales showed a big shift back to Labour.I believe it would be a mistake to extrapolate much from Welsh Assembly elections where turnout is much lower and party alleigances much looser. Were I on the electoral roll there, I would support the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party.
    I voted "No" in 1998, but I am a convert now.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    Johnson is a hero to some working class voters in the same way that many people in the East End of London liked the Kray twins.
    Comparable villainy in my book!
    Charming & amusing even when nailing your head to the floor?
    Who? Boris or Reggie and Ronnie.
    DINSDALE!!!!!!
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Andy_JS said:

    This is disappointing. I would have thought most people are exercising more than before.

    "The public has been snacking more in lockdown and, despite increases in sales of bikes and exercise equipment, overall activity levels appear to have dropped compared to before the pandemic"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-24/experts-warn-over-huge-risk-of-covid-death-in-obese-people-as-gyms-reopen

    But not at all surprising. There will have been a lot of boredom and anxiety eating going on during this period, and the proportion of gym users who've taken up outdoor exercise will be well short of 100%, despite the fact that we've had a lot of good weather.

    This period of enforced inactivity - the prolonged closure of leisure facilities, and prohibition of sports - will likely have undone many years of effort to get the population more active, just as many people have also developed serious chocolate biscuit fixations. Alas, good habits are often as easy to lose as bad habits are hard to give up.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    Apologies if this has already been discussed but WTF is wrong with GMB? Even without Piers Morgan. This clip is disgusting. 😡

    https://twitter.com/Miss_Snuffy/status/1287041804316151812?s=19

    My God.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    Andy_JS said:

    This is disappointing. I would have thought most people are exercising more than before.

    "The public has been snacking more in lockdown and, despite increases in sales of bikes and exercise equipment, overall activity levels appear to have dropped compared to before the pandemic"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-24/experts-warn-over-huge-risk-of-covid-death-in-obese-people-as-gyms-reopen

    A big motivator in exercise is doing it in a group = parkrun , zumba ,sport clubs etc - As seen as these cannot still happen in the main (why on earth cannot parkruns be done now I dont know) then people will get unfit
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    Flanner said:

    The presidency rapidly ages people. I rather hope that Biden will be self-aware enough that if it becomes necessary he would rather retire than in four years time be proud of himself for being able to say "person woman man camera tv"

    What do you mean by "ages"?

    Most heads of government look a lot older after a stint in power than the time they've spent in office. But the only one I'm aware who actually developed clinically-diagnosed dementia in office was Wilson (who did then retire). And, as far as I'm aware, there's not a shred of evidence being PM accelerated his dementia

    FWIW, my own experience is that dementia usually sets in once someone's stopped being active (eg Thatcher and I think Reagan, but lots of people I know socially)

    Is there any evidence the old in office get demented relatively quickly? I'd have said that the evidence from QEII and Benedict XV is that having a real job in extreme old age keeps your brain working.
    Reagan had it while in office, to the extent his staff seriously considered invoking the 25th Amendment to hand power to Bush. But it wasn’t formally diagnosed until later.
    IIRC the potential invoking of 25th amendment occurred in immediate aftermath of attempted assassination, when Reagan was recovering from gunshot wound. NOT in the later part of his 2nd term (post Iran-Contra scandal).
    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/worrying-about-reagan
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Don't get this whole hedge manager business - who'd have thought there was quite SO much money in supervising shrubbery?
    No no no.....

    It's a fund that invests in companies that supervise shrubbery.

    Here is an advert for such services -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIV4poUZAQo
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited July 2020
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Yes strikingly similar stories.

    And in both cases following the demise of the talented but vulnerable founding member the bands went on to enormous commercial success.
    I used to be a big fan of early Floyd ft Syd, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, but now it sounds like absolute nonsense. Peter Green, in contrast, was a serious musician, and his music with Fleetwood Mac still sounds fantastic today
    I like both ; I think there's still a revelatory, almost chiidlike strangeness about Barrett, but unfortunately between about 1967 and 1969 the childlike wonder and fascination with things turned to madness.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Spain had a very strict lockdown and a phased return to normality. We could be looking and learning from what is happening there now with Covid's return given that our cycle is a few weeks' behind their one. What are the chances?

    What do you think we should do?
    Well, if nightclubs are a key source of transmission, one suggestion is don’t reopen fecking nightclubs.

    How many people would really miss them? Truthfully?
    The many nightclub owners on the Spanish costas and in the Balearics. Hence Spain's decision to reopen them. Now much regretted
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    I live near Bridgend, and I would have thought you are right, particularly with the fallout from the closure of the engine plant, but WAG rather than Johnson are taking the hit on that.

    Labour have a very frosty relationship with the TV broadcast media here in Wales. Local BBC news is very hostile. Drakeford's stock has risen through Covid, but he and the Assembly Government are compared poorly against Johnson's performance, particularly in relation to the "late" opening of retail and hospitality sectors. Still no mandatory mask wearing in Wales, so Drakeford and Gething are being hammered in the media (rightly?) for that.

    Johnson is an enigma here in Wales. Historically the Welsh were hostile to English Tory Toffs, but Johnson seems to transcend that.
    The last poll in Wales showed a big shift back to Labour.I believe it would be a mistake to extrapolate much from Welsh Assembly elections where turnout is much lower and party alleigances much looser. Were I on the electoral roll there, I would support the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party.
    I voted "No" in 1998, but I am a convert now.
    I did not have a vote in Autumn 1997 - but have certainly not changed my mind.Very content if Johnson called a Referendum there to ascertain whether voters still wanted the Assembly. I am firmly of the Left but would vote Tory in a Tory v Plaid contest. Ditto in Scotland re-SNP.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
  • This is a bitter blow to Spain's tourist industry

    yes exactly - causes untold misery for all that rely on it and obviously stops people having a deserved break as well .
    We were planning to go to Malaga end of August for a week. We saw the writing on the wall and cancelled yesterday, rebooking to Malta. No guarantees that that will happen either.

    We went to Barcelona last weekend, and while many people were wearing masks, no-one seemed to following the instructions to stay at home.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Poor Syd was not sent mad by LSD. The drug might have accelerated his decline, but the schizophrenia was priced in from the start.

    I know the man who lived with him in his last years in London, in the famous Earls Court flat with the striped floor - the location used on the iconic cover of his solo album.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    But those are not new factors compared with 2019 - and by 2024 Brexit is likely to be a peripheral issue.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    That doesn't really sound like much of a scandal.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disappointing. I would have thought most people are exercising more than before.

    "The public has been snacking more in lockdown and, despite increases in sales of bikes and exercise equipment, overall activity levels appear to have dropped compared to before the pandemic"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-24/experts-warn-over-huge-risk-of-covid-death-in-obese-people-as-gyms-reopen

    But not at all surprising. There will have been a lot of boredom and anxiety eating going on during this period, and the proportion of gym users who've taken up outdoor exercise will be well short of 100%, despite the fact that we've had a lot of good weather.

    This period of enforced inactivity - the prolonged closure of leisure facilities, and prohibition of sports - will likely have undone many years of effort to get the population more active, just as many people have also developed serious chocolate biscuit fixations. Alas, good habits are often as easy to lose as bad habits are hard to give up.
    I've been doing a decent amount of exercise. Ran so many daily 5ks my knee started to protest. Got back into biking which I've pushed further and further - rode from Thornaby just south of the Tees to Newcastle yesterday. Monster ride. Epic.

    But I am depressed and working from home. Which makes snacky goodness not just possible but essential. A weekly beer night. With some midweek wee dram action. OK so I've finally decided that self medication isn't working and need professional attention. But weight management isn't exactly a priority at the moment.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    edited July 2020

    This is a bitter blow to Spain's tourist industry

    yes exactly - causes untold misery for all that rely on it and obviously stops people having a deserved break as well .
    We were planning to go to Malaga end of August for a week. We saw the writing on the wall and cancelled yesterday, rebooking to Malta. No guarantees that that will happen either.

    We went to Barcelona last weekend, and while many people were wearing masks, no-one seemed to following the instructions to stay at home.
    Well good luck in "smack the mole " government policy and well done on getting about a bit in this oppressive time
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Yes strikingly similar stories.

    And in both cases following the demise of the talented but vulnerable founding member the bands went on to enormous commercial success.
    I used to be a big fan of early Floyd ft Syd, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, but now it sounds like absolute nonsense. Peter Green, in contrast, was a serious musician, and his music with Fleetwood Mac still sounds fantastic today
    Sorry, but you're saying that Pink Floyd in contrast were *not* serious musicians? Its an opinion...

    Nick Mason's Saucerful of Secrets. Fantastic band playing fantastic music. And the best thing on their setlist? Vegetable Man, which is literally - and gloriously - nonsense.
    Syd Barrett, not the rest of Pink Floyd. I have probably listened to every song Barrett ever recorded, and read every book written about him - when I was 20 I could probably have had him as my specialist subject on Mastermind! But, 25 years on I have to say I think his music has aged very badly - I actually played "The Gnome" to my 8 month old son the other day and it wasn't out of place with the nonsense he listens to!

    Green, on the other hand, is a genuine rock legend whose music aged beautifully
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Can somebody explain the new boundaries as I thought the seat numbers were remaining the same

    Yes they are keeping at 650 seats and a 5% threshold. There are 5 protected seats: Orkney and Shetland, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Ynys Mon, and 2 for Isle of Wight.

    The main difference with the current boundaries is that Wales loses its over-representation so will likely lose 8 seats. The main winner region is likely to be the South East, which could gain 7 seats.

    The new boundaries should benefit the Tories but not as much as before the election. Electoral Calculus' current estimate is Con +6, Lab -3, SNP -2, Plaid - 1 vs 2019.

    The boundaries will be based on the electorates from March 2020. So I'm guessing the review will kick off either end of this year or early next year.
    I ran a rough calculation based on the likely seats for Wales a few months back.

    I came up with Labour 14, Tory 12, Plaid 2 and a few which were too close to call. With Ynys Môn getting protected status, I’m going to hesitantly put that in the Tory column. I know it’s very close, but it’s 1951 since a sitting MP was defeated there. That leaves three I’m struggling with - two in Carmarthenshire which might go any one of three ways and one in the North.

    Any reduction for Wales will hurt Labour pretty badly because the Valleys are their last stronghold and they will inevitably take a pounding.
    Labour are not very popular in the blue collar seats along the M4 corridor anyway. Boris Johnson by contrast is revered amongst people who considered Brexit to be the way forward.

    If Johnson can avoid any blame for any post-Covid and post- Brexit economic damage, and I believe Wales will be caned, particularly post-Brexit, he will pick up a few more seats outside Cardiff. I am sure he has his scapegoats lined up already.
    I doubt that. I would expect Labour to regain many - perhaps all - of the seats lost in Wales in 2019. Even if the Tories manage to retain a GB lead of 4% - 5% - compared with 11.7% last time - Labour should regain Bridgend - Delyn - Vale of Clwyd - Clwyd South.Wrexham would be another likely gain. Boundary changes may affect some outcomes , but in the context of a pro- Labour swing of 3% - 4% not very much.
    I live near Bridgend, and I would have thought you are right, particularly with the fallout from the closure of the engine plant, but WAG rather than Johnson are taking the hit on that.

    Labour have a very frosty relationship with the TV broadcast media here in Wales. Local BBC news is very hostile. Drakeford's stock has risen through Covid, but he and the Assembly Government are compared poorly against Johnson's performance, particularly in relation to the "late" opening of retail and hospitality sectors. Still no mandatory mask wearing in Wales, so Drakeford and Gething are being hammered in the media (rightly?) for that.

    Johnson is an enigma here in Wales. Historically the Welsh were hostile to English Tory Toffs, but Johnson seems to transcend that.
    The last poll in Wales showed a big shift back to Labour.I believe it would be a mistake to extrapolate much from Welsh Assembly elections where turnout is much lower and party alleigances much looser. Were I on the electoral roll there, I would support the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party.
    I voted "No" in 1998, but I am a convert now.
    I did not have a vote in Autumn 1997 - but have certainly not changed my mind.Very content if Johnson called a Referendum there to ascertain whether voters still wanted the Assembly. I am firmly of the Left but would vote Tory in a Tory v Plaid contest. Ditto in Scotland re-SNP.
    I voted Plaid in the last Assembly Elections, the one where Leanne tried a form a rainbow coalition with UKIP and Andrew RT Davies. I won't be encouraging them to pull that stunt again.

    Sorry about the date. In the immortal words of Ken Bruce "One year out!"
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Flanner said:

    The presidency rapidly ages people. I rather hope that Biden will be self-aware enough that if it becomes necessary he would rather retire than in four years time be proud of himself for being able to say "person woman man camera tv"

    What do you mean by "ages"?

    Most heads of government look a lot older after a stint in power than the time they've spent in office. But the only one I'm aware who actually developed clinically-diagnosed dementia in office was Wilson (who did then retire). And, as far as I'm aware, there's not a shred of evidence being PM accelerated his dementia

    FWIW, my own experience is that dementia usually sets in once someone's stopped being active (eg Thatcher and I think Reagan, but lots of people I know socially)

    Is there any evidence the old in office get demented relatively quickly? I'd have said that the evidence from QEII and Benedict XV is that having a real job in extreme old age keeps your brain working.
    I mean that the job is [unless your name is Trump and you don't care about it] a very physically and emotionally draining job that requires a lot of time and effort. You only need to look at before and after pictures of PMs and Presidents to see how they age in the job - even May who wasn't there long. And its not simply about appearances, or the natural effect of 3, 4 or 8 years.

    Can Biden cope with the demands of the job? Maybe he can now, but can he in 2 years time? If he can't, I hope he realises that and retires with dignity.

    Edit: PS you name Thatcher and Reagan and there is evidence for both that mental changes began before they retired.
    IIRC Dr Owen wrote a book on the medical and mental effects of leadership. His opinion was that the only modern PM who came through the experience unscathed was John Major - who hated the job by the end, so was perfectly content to give it up.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    rcs1000 said:

    RH1992 said:

    But to me this is how the system should be working. Spain reports a spike and we act accordingly and swiftly. If we dithered then we'd be making the same mistakes as at the start of the pandemic.

    Most holiday providers have COVID guarantees now but there's always going to be some who lose out, it's a risk you take when you go abroad right now.

    Whack-a-mole is entirely appropriate here. Deal with problems as and when they pop up until they stop popping up.
    Of course it is

    This is UK wide and top marks to HMG for taking this decision
    For goodness sake, Spain was on the radar for 14 days quarantine remaining in place when it was lifted elsewhere (and at the last minute Span). Johnson is behind the 8 ball again.

    Take the blinkers off!
    I thought Spain with all its mask wearing would be safe - are we sure mask wearing does anything?
    Would you support surgeons not wearing masks during surgery? Because the principle is the same: you don't spread your particles far when you breath or cough.
    for all the good it has done Spain . Masks do sod all because most people (especially those who dont want to wear them do not use them properly. All that disgusting garbage as well .
    (1) If you open nightclubs and you have crowded bars, cases will rise.

    (2) Where is your evidence for the statement that most people do not wear them properly.

    Now you can argue that there are *more effective* strategies for managing CV19. But when you say they do "sod all", you are clearly talking shit, because even if a mask caught just 10% on average of particulate matter leaving someone's mouth, it would still cut transmission markedly.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    Don't get this whole hedge manager business - who'd have thought there was quite SO much money in supervising shrubbery?
    It requires the utmost discretion, looking after all those privet matters.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    But those are not new factors compared with 2019 - and by 2024 Brexit is likely to be a peripheral issue.
    I hope you are right.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    isam said:

    .

    isam said:

    RIP Peter Green

    So sad. I loved Peter. This week I have been trying to learn Oh Well and Black Magic Woman on the guitar.

    I think had you offered him his last twenty five years back in the late 70s/early 80s he wouldn't have believed it possible. It could have been a lot, lot worse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6GB_c6d_2U

    My wife's family knew Peter Green's younger relatives, apparently. One of that generation of postwar East End Jewish boys drawn to the 'sixties creative industries ; Marc Bolan was another.
    An incredibly sad story. The Man of the World documentary by the BBC is good. I think it is on iplayer, but no doubt will be shown again now he has sadly passed away. Spent his final years in Leigh-on-Sea I believe

    https://web.musicaficionado.com/main/article/Peter_Green_Article
    Thanks for this. There are incredible similarities with Syd Barrett's story here ; those who were the most sensitive souls, and had a period of having their drinks spiked with LSD, often seem to have suffered the most negative consequences of hallucinogens. Both he and Barrett seem to have degenerated almost to drifters after these experiences, which they didn't plan or initiate.

    More confident personalities of the era, acting with their own sense of agency, and most importantly not so enormously frightened and unsettled by the experience, seemed to have been the ones sometimes deriving more benefit from it ; and also generally seemed to have returned to the drug only rarely, if at all, afterwards.
    Poor Syd was not sent mad by LSD. The drug might have accelerated his decline, but the schizophrenia was priced in from the start.

    I know the man who lived with him in his last years in London, in the famous Earls Court flat with the striped floor - the location used on the iconic cover of his solo album.
    According to my wife's milieu, that again takes in Peter Green - and which erstwhile TV man Jonathan Meades supposedly confirmed - Barrett involuntarily and unknowingly had his coffee spiked with LSD for about a month at the end of 1967, after which he wasn't the same.

    With so many people obviously off on their own interstellar journeys at the time, though, the exact truth may be hard to unweave.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816

    Andy_JS said:

    This is disappointing. I would have thought most people are exercising more than before.

    "The public has been snacking more in lockdown and, despite increases in sales of bikes and exercise equipment, overall activity levels appear to have dropped compared to before the pandemic"

    https://www.itv.com/news/2020-07-24/experts-warn-over-huge-risk-of-covid-death-in-obese-people-as-gyms-reopen

    But not at all surprising. There will have been a lot of boredom and anxiety eating going on during this period, and the proportion of gym users who've taken up outdoor exercise will be well short of 100%, despite the fact that we've had a lot of good weather.

    This period of enforced inactivity - the prolonged closure of leisure facilities, and prohibition of sports - will likely have undone many years of effort to get the population more active, just as many people have also developed serious chocolate biscuit fixations. Alas, good habits are often as easy to lose as bad habits are hard to give up.
    I've been doing a decent amount of exercise. Ran so many daily 5ks my knee started to protest. Got back into biking which I've pushed further and further - rode from Thornaby just south of the Tees to Newcastle yesterday. Monster ride. Epic.

    But I am depressed and working from home. Which makes snacky goodness not just possible but essential. A weekly beer night. With some midweek wee dram action. OK so I've finally decided that self medication isn't working and need professional attention. But weight management isn't exactly a priority at the moment.
    Sympathies and although I do respect your earnest endeavours to comply with guidance , if it is making you depressed and you want to do something to make you happier I would just do it and sod the covid -19 overregulations
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think you overstate Labour's unpopularity in the Bay. That is not to say a rainbow coalition of non-Labour AMs will not form the next Government.

    I don’t know. My impression is their support is patchy. I think Labour are in advanced and possibly terminal decay in the north outside Bangor, while in Dyfed-Powys they’ve been weak for years.

    But I would expect a Labour-Plaid coalition next year if only because I cannot see any other route to 30 other than Tory majority (which ain’t happening).

    But I can see Tories - most seats in 2021 (albeit it’s not the likeliest outcome) and taking power in 2025-26.
    The Johnson factor may make Conservatives most seats next year.

    I know, I know, I live in a parallel universe where Johnson appears to be a catastrophe. But he is working class hero catnip to former Labour blue collar voters.
    I hate to get all HYFUD, but the last poll that was taken doesn't seem to show that

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271153920941928451?s=20
    Good point. My anecdotal antenna makes me nervous that the Conservatives are still in the ascent as your poll suggests. I just don't see where the improvement for Labour comes from.
    Why would Labour under Starmer do worse in Wales than Corbyn in 2019 - or even 2017? Particularly in the context of a swing to Labour across GB of circa 4%! Never seen it happen there before.
    Brexit and latent racism.
    But those are not new factors compared with 2019 - and by 2024 Brexit is likely to be a peripheral issue.
    I hope you are right.
    People who didn't want Brexit seem to say it wont be an issue for Starmer to have been the Brexit blocker he was, but it will be terrible for Boris who will have to own the consequences etc... Aren't they just talking their book?
This discussion has been closed.