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  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,966

    Just been shopping in Cramlington. Mask usage 100%.

    Having the NE Covid hospital will concentrate minds.
    However that tallies with my experience yesterday.
    It is astonishing how it happened overnight.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,597
    MaxPB said:

    I hope you're right Southam, this verdict makes a mockery of the idea of justice.
    I looked up that, too, and although IANAL, as before, I agree with @isam; 'I doubt they intended to kill the policeman, they just didn't care that he died'.
    And yes, they could get life, with a minimum term before parole. AIUI, a life sentence means just that, although one can be paroled. Which, as I understand it, is different from being on licence, in that any further offence can result in recall to prison.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,839
    Charles said:

    I still think you should share 😞
    Read that exchange. NOT a fair bet. Pagan should be let off.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,843

    Just been shopping in Cramlington. Mask usage 100%.

    Did they all seem oppressed to you?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    Yes it is. If you are engaged in a criminal act (they were) and you intend to cause serious harm but didn't intend death that is still intent for the purpose of murder.

    If they knowingly dragged someone on the tarmac they surely knowingly intended to cause serious harm.
    Just to be clear, I am not sure why the jury didn't infer intent.

    I believe the defence case was that the accused was not aware of what was happening, which would support acquital; however, having found that they were aware (which presumably they did because no acquital) I think most people would have inferred intent.

    Nevertheless I think people underestimate how long 10 years (for example) actually is. There is a reason the minimum tariff for premeditated murder is frequently only 20 years.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    alex_ said:

    I look forward to you advocating Parliament abolishing the Septennial Act if things look like getting a bit sticky.
    I am sure that the lawyers on here are glad to have someone of HYUFD's legal stature to teach them their jobs...
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    O/T - I wonder how much U.K. perceptions of the safety of foreign (particularly EU) travel is being skewed by the testing regimes? How many EU countries are running equivalent to the UK’s “pillar 2” testing programme? France is apparently now reporting 1000+ cases a day. And these are ALL “in hospitals”.

    I find one of the big frustrations about this is whole situation is the lack of availability of genuinely comparative information. Occasionally articles surface in the press, but after a few caveats are cited they then seem to decide it’s all too difficult and give up.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,990
    Carnyx said:

    But the Scots had already had a rates revaluation!! So it was malicious in that sense of being a deliberate experiment - the satrap in charge at the timne knew he could impose it and show the new system working.
    The problem wasn't introducing the poll tax in Scotland.
    It was then not introducing it in England.
    Contrary to Scottish political folklore, it was not the poll tax protests that finished the poll tax, but the Lib Dem by-election victories in Tory strongholds.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,366
    kinabalu said:

    Read that exchange. NOT a fair bet. Pagan should be let off.
    I may be wrong but I'd suspect he'd think the best educations are paid for, so..
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Where are the younger members of the UK Royal family they should be out and about, wearing their masks, leading by example. The odd unannounced visit to Tesco for example
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,303
    nichomar said:

    Where are the younger members of the UK Royal family they should be out and about, wearing their masks, leading by example. The odd unannounced visit to Tesco for example

    Perhaps they are and nobody has recognised them because of the masks...
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    The problem wasn't introducing the poll tax in Scotland.
    It was then not introducing it in England.
    Contrary to Scottish political folklore, it was not the poll tax protests that finished the poll tax, but the Lib Dem by-election victories in Tory strongholds.
    I’m obviously missing some subtle point? The poll tax was introduced in England?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited July 2020

    The problem wasn't introducing the poll tax in Scotland.
    It was then not introducing it in England.
    Contrary to Scottish political folklore, it was not the poll tax protests that finished the poll tax, but the Lib Dem by-election victories in Tory strongholds.
    Other way round I think - it was not introducing it in England (which had not had a rates revaluation) BEFORE Scotland (which had), or at least at the same time, which went down very badly. Edit - also, on top of the obvious unfairness of the tax itself. But I was not (politically) very aware at the time abd others on PB may know better.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,178
    MaxPB said:

    Did they all seem oppressed to you?
    The heavy burden of the jackboot was unmissable.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,821
    nichomar said:

    Where are the younger members of the UK Royal family they should be out and about, wearing their masks, leading by example. The odd unannounced visit to Tesco for example

    Not up to date with the ins and outs of the Windsors but I thought the only popular ones live overseas these days?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,843
    Also on click through, there has been one prominent example of a company which has tried to make the jump the other way - BuzzFeed and they have comprehensively failed to make a sustainable news reporting department. It's the classic example of how new media thinks they can do a better job that old media and then fail for all of the same reasons. We've seen BuzzFeed close down their UK, Australia and most of their US news reporting teams because they were such a huge net drag on the more revenue driven "top 10" listicle driven content.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,839

    I looked up that, too, and although IANAL, as before, I agree with @isam; 'I doubt they intended to kill the policeman, they just didn't care that he died'.
    And yes, they could get life, with a minimum term before parole. AIUI, a life sentence means just that, although one can be paroled. Which, as I understand it, is different from being on licence, in that any further offence can result in recall to prison.
    I believe with a life sentence there is much flexibility as to minimum term served and this is mainly at the discretion of the judge.

    So what could happen is these men get LIFE but with a minimum term lower than it would have been if it were a murder conviction. 8 years, say, instead of 15. Or 12 years instead of 20. This sort of calculus.

    The PR for the public in going this route would perhaps be better. I sense a strong need to hear the word LIFE in the sentence. And for this to be the headline. "PC killers get Life."

    Let's see. It's a very nasty case.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    Charles said:

    Must you be so informal?

    It’s correctly the “Lord High Chancellor”
    Is he the one in wig and tights?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,616
    HYUFD said:

    Parliament is sovereign if it passes or amends a statute it can do whatever it likes and the courts must obey
    I'm still unclear if you think doing so in this case or others would be a good idea or not. If you don't then why bring it up?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    dixiedean said:

    Having the NE Covid hospital will concentrate minds.
    However that tallies with my experience yesterday.
    It is astonishing how it happened overnight.
    Yes, I can’t think of anything that changed between Thursday and Friday. Shows what a load of nonsense it was all these people posting on here how about the English mask compliance being lower than in other EU countries. It was higher where it was the law, lower where it wasn’t. Quelle surprise.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,366
    nichomar said:

    Where are the younger members of the UK Royal family they should be out and about, wearing their masks, leading by example. The odd unannounced visit to Tesco for example

    I believe Andrew loves a mask.


  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    alex_ said:

    I’m obviously missing some subtle point? The poll tax was introduced in England?
    Indeed, but it gave the Scots the impression that they were being used for testing like lab rats - not a feeling that goes down well....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,616
    nichomar said:

    Where are the younger members of the UK Royal family they should be out and about, wearing their masks, leading by example. The odd unannounced visit to Tesco for example

    I think the general policy is to only use the major figures for public events as comes across as streamlined and less expensive, and for another no one knows the minor younger figures. So really it'd just be Kate and Will now that Harry has retired (though for someone who hates the press so much he seems to still want a lot of attention).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,616

    The heavy burden of the jackboot was unmissable.
    Lucky people - I wanted some jackboots months ago but I think they all got snapped up along with toilet paper.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,303

    Is he the one in wig and tights?
    He’s the one with what might be the best patter song in Gilbert and Sullivan’s operettas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64lewe9DdQg
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Indeed, but it gave the Scots the impression that they were being used for testing like lab rats - not a feeling that goes down well....
    Exactly. Steve Bell (not normally sympathetic to the SNP) had a theme of the time in his cartoon strip portraying the Scots as guinea pigs in kilts furious at being forced to go through the Tory hamster wheel.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,839

    I believe Andrew loves a mask.


    He looks a bit nervous there, Andrew. It's like he's arrived, looked around, and realized he's the only one WITHOUT a mask.

    And it doesn't look like Pizza Express to me either.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    The Royals have been received this Saturday in Santiago de Compostela to applause and shouts of "Long live Spain!" in front of the church of San Martiño Pinario, where the traditional offering to the Apostle on Galicia Day takes place, which is not celebrated in the cathedral due to the works. The acting President of the Xunta de Galicia, Alberto Núñez Feijóo, and the President of the Constitutional Court, Juan José González Rivas, welcomed them after getting out of the official car accompanied by the Third Vice President and Minister of Economic Affairs, Nadia Calviño, all of them protected by a mask.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192

    He’s the one with what might be the best patter song in Gilbert and Sullivan’s operettas: www.youtube.com/watch?v=64lewe9DdQg
    I had not seen that one before...

    So, not this guy then?

    image

  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,303
    I know my G&S quite well; I think that is more S&M...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,035
    Tres said:

    Not up to date with the ins and outs of the Windsors but I thought the only popular ones live overseas these days?
    Not according to this

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prince-harry-seen-liability-monarchy-22383335?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,535
    Carnyx said:

    Other way round I think - it was not introducing it in England (which had not had a rates revaluation) BEFORE Scotland (which had), or at least at the same time, which went down very badly. Edit - also, on top of the obvious unfairness of the tax itself. But I was not (politically) very aware at the time abd others on PB may know better.
    Yet in 1992 the number of Conservative MPs increased in Scotland.

    So it looks like the rates revaluation effect in 1987 was far more negative than the poll tax effect in 1992.

    Lets face it whatever the Conservative government did at that time was going to go down very badly with many Scots.

    The real mystery was why Scotland did get its rates revaluation in 1986 when those in England & Wales in 1978 and 1983 had been cancelled.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192

    ... Our major divisions take the form of constitutional battles over where accountability and power should lie. One of those, the EU question, has been settled; once Scotland and Northern Ireland are also resolved then we ought finally to have some peace and quiet for a change.

    Would that be when England is finally independent? What about that little extra bit to the west known as "Wales"? Or is that merely Extreme Western England these days?
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,303

    I know my G&S quite well; I think that is more S&M...

    Having said that: it’s a great show/movie and Sweet Transvestite is one of the best entrances in cinema.
  • _Andy__Andy_ Posts: 12
    I use Axate. This works with Popbitch and a number of local papers at like 20p per paid article. I keep suggestion to the Guardian everytime / everyday they send begging emails/prompts...But they think they know best...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,349

    I had not seen that one before...

    So, not this guy then?

    image

    “Education, education, education...”
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,616

    Not according to this

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prince-harry-seen-liability-monarchy-22383335?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar
    Their planned upcoming book will only feed a media frenzy that I thought they did not like. Presumably it will only be of interest for someme tawdry anecdotes of various royals being mean to Harry and Meghan, up to and including Her Majesty.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,616

    Would that be when England is finally independent? What about that little extra bit to the west known as "Wales"? Or is that merely Extreme Western England these days?
    Well, I'd heard that the word Welsh derives from a word meaning, essentially, 'foreign', so it wouldn't be far off if that is true.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    edited July 2020
    (Replied to wrong post - deleted)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,197
    300 looking a long way away this morning for England.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,281

    Is the UK really that similar to the US - or are we viewing our disagreements through the prism of their culture wars, lending too much weight to the views of loud-but-small protest groups and media celebrities, and concluding (falsely) that the two polities are more alike than they actually are?

    The main division in the UK isn't between these cultural groups - most of the population is small-c conservative - it's between its constituent parts. This remains true, despite the unexpectedly strong performance by Labour in 2017 - Labour would never have done as well as it did if more attention had been devoted to Corbyn and his policies, and if there had been any serious expectation that he might actually win - and still Theresa May finished more than 50 seats clear.

    As we all know, the last genuinely left-wing UK Government was elected in October 1974, and that was only with a three seat majority. Today, nearly half-a-century later, it's only the strength of Scottish Nationalism that confuses the overall picture. At the last General Election the Tories won a bigger share of the popular vote in England than the SNP did in Scotland, and a majority of over 150. There are good reasons for this, and they go way beyond arguments over Europe.

    The swing voters of provincial England will put Labour back into bat when three conditions are fulfilled: when they are fed-up with the Tories and think it's time for a change, when they want more care and attention paid to public services, and when they feel sufficiently reassured that Labour isn't a threat to their prosperity and security. The notion that there's also a massive constituency of voters out there who are mad-keen on ripping down contentious statues, paying reparations for slavery, cutting police budgets to free up money for more social workers and diversity officers, and inviting every migrant who turns up at Calais to come over and settle here is for the birds.

    It is surely worth considering the possibility that there is, in fact, no American-style "culture war" in Britain, other than between attention seeking campaigners and media outlets? Our major divisions take the form of constitutional battles over where accountability and power should lie. One of those, the EU question, has been settled; once Scotland and Northern Ireland are also resolved then we ought finally to have some peace and quiet for a change.
    All good points apart from the last paragraph imo! I agree with your central premise, the UK is not the USA and wont be.

    But our relationship with the EU and indeed the world is nowhere near settled, we have just said what we dont want from EU, China and the US, not defined what we do want and is actually available. Very unsure as to the existence of any resolution to Scotland or Northern Ireland that will resolve them, let alone our ability to identify and agree on such a solution, and then implement it well.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    Is the UK really that similar to the US - or are we viewing our disagreements through the prism of their culture wars, lending too much weight to the views of loud-but-small protest groups and media celebrities, and concluding (falsely) that the two polities are more alike than they actually are?

    The main division in the UK isn't between these cultural groups - most of the population is small-c conservative - it's between its constituent parts. This remains true, despite the unexpectedly strong performance by Labour in 2017 - Labour would never have done as well as it did if more attention had been devoted to Corbyn and his policies, and if there had been any serious expectation that he might actually win - and still Theresa May finished more than 50 seats clear.

    As we all know, the last genuinely left-wing UK Government was elected in October 1974, and that was only with a three seat majority. Today, nearly half-a-century later, it's only the strength of Scottish Nationalism that confuses the overall picture. At the last General Election the Tories won a bigger share of the popular vote in England than the SNP did in Scotland, and a majority of over 150. There are good reasons for this, and they go way beyond arguments over Europe.

    The swing voters of provincial England will put Labour back into bat when three conditions are fulfilled: when they are fed-up with the Tories and think it's time for a change, when they want more care and attention paid to public services, and when they feel sufficiently reassured that Labour isn't a threat to their prosperity and security. The notion that there's also a massive constituency of voters out there who are mad-keen on ripping down contentious statues, paying reparations for slavery, cutting police budgets to free up money for more social workers and diversity officers, and inviting every migrant who turns up at Calais to come over and settle here is for the birds.

    It is surely worth considering the possibility that there is, in fact, no American-style "culture war" in Britain, other than between attention seeking campaigners and media outlets? Our major divisions take the form of constitutional battles over where accountability and power should lie. One of those, the EU question, has been settled; once Scotland and Northern Ireland are also resolved then we ought finally to have some peace and quiet for a change.

    Culture wars come in many forms. Scotland is moving away from England in part, at least, because a lot of Scots no longer believe they share the same values as the English.

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192

    Having said that: it’s a great show/movie and Sweet Transvestite is one of the best entrances in cinema.
    I like a good Curry ;)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,197

    Indeed, but it gave the Scots the impression that they were being used for testing like lab rats - not a feeling that goes down well....
    One of the reasons I loathe Ikea.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    Indeed, but it gave the Scots the impression that they were being used for testing like lab rats - not a feeling that goes down well....

    The Tories were also implacably opposed to any form of devolution settlement for Scotland. That has to have something to do with the collapse in support.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,346
    edited July 2020
    With old-fashioned paper newspapers and magazines, I tend to read a wider range of articles by writers with a wider range of views. Online it's much easier to just read what you want to read.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,277
    edited July 2020
    On topic, the article is excellent, but misses something I have long argued.

    The upside of the internet is that certain specialist news sources have popped up - a classic example is Nasaspaceflight.com. Their reporting (on all things relating to space) is extremely accurate, extremely technical and is backed by a vast amount of inside information.

    Arstechnica is another one - itself an aggregator, but a great place to find talent on various issues.

    Back to the hot topic of the day - and yet not off topic.

    The biggest gap in the reporting of the case of the hour is any attempt to explain why the jury did what they did.

    My first thought would be -

    1) An explanation of the legal definition of murder and manslaughter in England.
    2) The arguments used by protection and defense.
    3) Analyse why the above could have led to the decision. If the decision doesn't follow from the above, add speculation {here}

    This would require a legal expert who can translate to human. But they exist.

    I have not found any such analysis, yet. Please feel free to point one out.

    I would pay for that, I think.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    IshmaelZ said:

    What this case makes me think is how hugely overrated juries are. They don't understand the law, and they are extremely vulnerable to intimidation (a vulnerability which is not compensated by giving them a bit of police protection during the actual trial, because you would actually need to protect 12 people and their nearest and dearest for ever after, and there aren't enough policemen for that). It's all very well to say fundamental right, Magna Carta, Penn's case etc etc but that is pure English exceptionalism. Most EU countries don't routinely have trial by jury and I am not worried that continental jails are full of the wrongly convicted as a result. Actually, I am much more convinced by the obverse case that the UK streets are full of the wrongly acquitted by thick and frightened juries.

    And considering that we imprison more of ourselves per capita than anywhere in the EU, the trusty shield of British fair play looks embarrassingly ineffective anyway. So why make a shibboleth of its most outdated and ineffective aspect, instead of having trial by judges who know the law and can be effectively protected from intimidation?
    Wrong on so many levels. No-one commenting sat through every day of the trial and heard the evidence (I assume) nor the judge’s directions on the law nor the summing up.

    I don’t have the time to deal with this today so I will just leave these 2 articles here and will come back later to sweep up the brickbats.

    https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/06/24/12-good-men/

    https://barry-walsh.co.uk/on-juries-and-experts/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,616
    Cyclefree said:

    Wrong on so many levels. No-one commenting sat through every day of the trial and heard the evidence (I assume) nor the judge’s directions on the law nor the summing up.

    I don’t have the time to deal with this today so I will just leave these 2 articles here and will come back later to sweep up the brickbats.

    https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/06/24/12-good-men/

    https://barry-walsh.co.uk/on-juries-and-experts/
    I love that that even the concept of support for trial by jury is now being derided as mere english exceptionalism. It's one of those terms which is so overused it is becoming meaningless.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,643
    Andy_JS said:

    With old-fashioned paper newspapers and magazines, I tend to read a wider range of articles by writers with a wider range of views. Online it's much easier to just read what you want to read.

    Definitely the opposite for me. I would never read Dan Hannan, Peter Hitchens at al. in print because I wouldn't pay for their papers.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,990
    alex_ said:

    I’m obviously missing some subtle point? The poll tax was introduced in England?
    Yeah, what I meant was the double negative:
    It wasn't removed when Scotland objected.
    It was removed when England objected.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    kle4 said:

    I love that that even the concept of support for trial by jury is now being derided as mere english exceptionalism. It's one of those terms which is so overused it is becoming meaningless.
    Anyone who has any personal knowledge of the French or Italian criminal justice systems (and I do) would not so casually assume they are better or dismiss the value of ours - even if there are things which could be done to improve it.

    Anyway off to do some painting.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,366

    The Tories were also implacably opposed to any form of devolution settlement for Scotland. That has to have something to do with the collapse in support.

    Much like their part in facilitating the Iraq war, Tories hate to be reminded that their false promises, obstuctionism and masterly(sic) inactivity over devolution played their full part in bringing it about in the form it was & is. If the SNP were one of the midwives of Thatcherism, the Tories and Thacher repaid them with interest.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    DavidL said:

    One of the reasons I loathe Ikea.
    I loathe it because they sell a lot of cr*p
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,277
    isam said:

    They come from families/a community that live outside what we would consider normal society - at least one of them, possibly more than one, had no conventional state schooling after 12. They are a law unto themselves. I am happy to believe that their families tried to intimidate the jurors, and reckon they may well have succeeded.

    Anyway, I am not saying and haven't said, this, that or the other should happen, just interested to see. I wondered whether there would be a retrial because people like Lord Blunkett were querying the goings on that led to the accused being victorious and the deceased's widow devastated when the verdict's were delivered.

    I doubt they intended to kill the policeman, they just didn't care that he died
    We created them. Us. The people

    How so?

    Well, one of the offshoots of Blairs policies was that communities should be handled separately. Individually.

    So we saw differential law enforcement. No need to grind over the old ground. But the essence was that the police withdrew from certain communities. This was matched by withdrawals by other state agencies - social workers, schools. Even building inspectors....

    The effect was, of course, that the worst elements in those communities took control. It is a standard social observation, that in any tight nit ethnic community, the criminal element will abuse their own first. Then outsiders, when they have grown big and bold enough.

    So we have children growing up, in an environment where the rules of the external world are irrelevant.

    It rather reminds me of a scene in Heinlein's Starship Troopers - the book

    Missed from the useless film, a teacher discusses with the class why the old world fell. He points out an unfairness of the old system - children allowed to become criminals. No punishment. Until one day, they graduated to murder and got hit by the force of the State...

    For those in such communities - for the law abiding majority - the external* world is very far away. Which explains such things as low levels of cooperation with Track and Trace, gaps in the crime maps**, the absence of reporting of illegal wages and conditions in factories....

    The abandonment works both ways - the system has withdrawn. Which means they are not there when *needed*

    Such a system of isolated communities abuses the communities themselves. It creates an Apartheid system - of second class citizens not able to fully access the facilities of the state. Taken advantage of by whatever Community Leaders*** float to the top.

    *Sometime termed the "white" world by campaigners.
    **When crime maps were introduced, it became clear that either some communities have no crime. Or that they don't report it.
    ***Coming from Northern Ireland, I mentally replace Community Leader with "Fascist Criminal Torture Murderer Racist With Table Manners".
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Yet in 1992 the number of Conservative MPs increased in Scotland.

    So it looks like the rates revaluation effect in 1987 was far more negative than the poll tax effect in 1992.

    Lets face it whatever the Conservative government did at that time was going to go down very badly with many Scots.

    The real mystery was why Scotland did get its rates revaluation in 1986 when those in England & Wales in 1978 and 1983 had been cancelled.
    I wasn't really with it politically at the time so can't comment with any certainty. But I do wonder if the rates revaluation hit the wealthier areas badly (shock at realising how much things had been allowed to swing in their favour and then the correction) - hence the 1987 result. Elderly widow in large stone villa sort of thing. But it was mitigated when the poll tax made massive cuts in bills, hence the 1992 revival. The poll tax hit the poorer areas disproportionately but they were already voting Labour anyway ...?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,197

    I loathe it because they sell a lot of cr*p
    Well, that too.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited July 2020
    kle4 said:

    Well, I'd heard that the word Welsh derives from a word meaning, essentially, 'foreign', so it wouldn't be far off if that is true.
    It does - more specifically thw [edit] Anglosaxon word for the original Britons, as also in Cornwall/Cornwelsh. Also with overtones of slave.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,516



    In 1979, Mrs Thatcher could not have done anything to offend Scots voters. That should be self-evident. Labour was in office until then. Clearly something happened after 1983, or some things.

    There could have been something she had done as LotO or as a Cabinet Minister under Heath, or something in the Conservative Manifesto.

    I agree, the decline in support between 83 and 87 needs some explanation though. It can't have been the Community Charge, because it wasn't a big issue till 1988/9 (though it was, unnoticed, in the 87 manifesto). Mrs Thatcher was still the same person she had been in 1983. And I doubt it was the privatisation of British Gas.

    As to what it was, I genuinely don't know.

    Either way, suggesting it was just Mrs Thatcher and the reform of local taxation is clearly much too simplistic.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,990
    Carnyx said:

    I wasn't really with it politically at the time so can't comment with any certainty. But I do wonder if the rates revaluation hit the wealthier areas badly (shock at realising how much things had been allowed to swing in their favour and then the correction) - hence the 1987 result. Elderly widow in large stone villa sort of thing. But it was mitigated when the poll tax made massive cuts in bills, hence the 1992 revival. The poll tax hit the poorer areas disproportionately but they were already voting Labour anyway ...?
    So we can assume that council tax will be based on 1991 house valuations for ever?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,966

    Yeah, what I meant was the double negative:
    It wasn't removed when Scotland objected.
    It was removed when England objected.
    It was removed when Conservatives objected.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited July 2020

    So we can assume that council tax will be based on 1991 house valuations for ever?
    Dunno about England but there is an ongoing debate not so much to revalue council tax in Scotland as to replace it completely. Not surprisingly the Greens and the Tories disagree bitterly ...

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    So we can assume that council tax will be based on 1991 house valuations for ever?
    And in any case you can ask for your house to be revalued. (The risk is if it goes up - and then your neighbours' might also ...).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,582
    kinabalu said:

    He looks a bit nervous there, Andrew. It's like he's arrived, looked around, and realized he's the only one WITHOUT a mask.

    And it doesn't look like Pizza Express to me either.
    "...like the shy one at some orgy..." Leonard Cohen
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,681



    The biggest gap in the reporting of the case of the hour is any attempt to explain why the jury did what they did.

    My first thought would be -

    1) An explanation of the legal definition of murder and manslaughter in England.
    2) The arguments used by protection and defense.
    3) Analyse why the above could have led to the decision. If the decision doesn't follow from the above, add speculation {here}

    This would require a legal expert who can translate to human. But they exist.

    I have not found any such analysis, yet. Please feel free to point one out.

    I would pay for that, I think.

    We don't know - as Cyclefree points out, we can't have an inforrmed opinion without having heard all the evidence and made assessments of the peoplegiving it. However, a semi-informed shot:

    1. Definitions are here: https://www.bcl.com/services/murder-manslaughter/
    2. The prosecution argued that they would have been aware that the policeman was tangled up in the rope, but pressed ahead anyway, intending to kill him or cause him grievous bodily harm. As evidence that they were aware, they had a bodycam video showing one of the three looking in the direction of the entrapped officer, and swerving as they drove away, which they suggest was a sign that they were trying to shake off his body. Common sense suggests that if they knew they would reasonably expect to cause death or grievous harm.

    The defence argued that the defendants were unaware that the officer was tangled up and in the general panic a recorded glance was insufficient evidence. The swerve could simply have been panicky driving as they rushed away. If one accepts that they didn't know, though, then even the manslaughter charge would fail, so the jury didn't accept the defence case.

    3. The jury might have accepted that there was not evidence of intent beyond reasonable doubt. Alternatively the swerve might be evidence that they did know the officer was trapped and were trying to shake him off (which argues against "intending to kill him or cause him grievous harm"). They might also have felt thjat in panic people act without thinking it through, and that they were simply bent on getting away without really thinking about the officer one way or the other. All of these seem to me reasonable possibilities - without having been at the trial I'm not sure hoiw reasonable.

    The public is outraged because the victim was a respected police officer and the defendants are tearaway criminals. These facts make it more upsetting but should not affect the verdict - the nature of the people involved does not change the definition of murder.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    kle4 said:

    Their planned upcoming book will only feed a media frenzy that I thought they did not like. Presumably it will only be of interest for someme tawdry anecdotes of various royals being mean to Harry and Meghan, up to and including Her Majesty.
    They don't like the media - they do like money. Which way do you think this will go?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,597
    Carnyx said:

    It does - more specifically thw [edit] Anglosaxon word for the original Britons, as also in Cornwall/Cornwelsh. Also with overtones of slave.
    Hence, too, if I am not much mistaken, William Wallace.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Cyclefree said:

    Wrong on so many levels. No-one commenting sat through every day of the trial and heard the evidence (I assume) nor the judge’s directions on the law nor the summing up.

    I don’t have the time to deal with this today so I will just leave these 2 articles here and will come back later to sweep up the brickbats.

    https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/06/24/12-good-men/

    https://barry-walsh.co.uk/on-juries-and-experts/
    No, not wrong, because my point depended solely on this case raising the *real possibility* of error, and jury tampering. I say and imply nothing about the particular facts of the case. Perhaps try to sound a touch less patronising, and to disabuse yourself of the delusion that you are the only professional lawyer in the village?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,346
    Report from CNN Health:

    "Shut down the country and start over to contain Covid-19, US medical experts urge political leaders"

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/23/health/shutdown-us-contain-coronavirus-wellness/index.html
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,277

    We don't know - as Cyclefree points out, we can't have an inforrmed opinion without having heard all the evidence and made assessments of the peoplegiving it. However, a semi-informed shot:

    1. Definitions are here: https://www.bcl.com/services/murder-manslaughter/
    2. The prosecution argued that they would have been aware that the policeman was tangled up in the rope, but pressed ahead anyway, intending to kill him or cause him grievous bodily harm. As evidence that they were aware, they had a bodycam video showing one of the three looking in the direction of the entrapped officer, and swerving as they drove away, which they suggest was a sign that they were trying to shake off his body. Common sense suggests that if they knew they would reasonably expect to cause death or grievous harm.

    The defence argued that the defendants were unaware that the officer was tangled up and in the general panic a recorded glance was insufficient evidence. The swerve could simply have been panicky driving as they rushed away. If one accepts that they didn't know, though, then even the manslaughter charge would fail, so the jury didn't accept the defence case.

    3. The jury might have accepted that there was not evidence of intent beyond reasonable doubt. Alternatively the swerve might be evidence that they did know the officer was trapped and were trying to shake him off (which argues against "intending to kill him or cause him grievous harm"). They might also have felt thjat in panic people act without thinking it through, and that they were simply bent on getting away without really thinking about the officer one way or the other. All of these seem to me reasonable possibilities - without having been at the trial I'm not sure hoiw reasonable.

    The public is outraged because the victim was a respected police officer and the defendants are tearaway criminals. These facts make it more upsetting but should not affect the verdict - the nature of the people involved does not change the definition of murder.
    The trial was public. All the evidence given, all the arguments...

    Yet with reporters in the courtroom - we don't know.

    All of the information is available. Lots and lots of facts to work with.

    A specialist reporter could have done what I suggested.

    But technical information is too hard, not Down-Wiv-Der-Kids*, etc.

    Much like the reporting on COVID19.

    *In the Prince Charles disco dancing sense of Down-Wiv-Der-Kids - a toe curling attempt to be hip.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Cyclefree said:

    Anyone who has any personal knowledge of the French or Italian criminal justice systems (and I do) would not so casually assume they are better or dismiss the value of ours - even if there are things which could be done to improve it.

    Anyway off to do some painting.
    And you assume that no one else does, on what grounds?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,277
    edited July 2020
    alex_ said:

    O/T - I wonder how much U.K. perceptions of the safety of foreign (particularly EU) travel is being skewed by the testing regimes? How many EU countries are running equivalent to the UK’s “pillar 2” testing programme? France is apparently now reporting 1000+ cases a day. And these are ALL “in hospitals”.

    I find one of the big frustrations about this is whole situation is the lack of availability of genuinely comparative information. Occasionally articles surface in the press, but after a few caveats are cited they then seem to decide it’s all too difficult and give up.

    Very, very true. We will get a much better picture of the cases part of the epidemic in the UK when we get data separated between Pillar 1 and 2.

    As to international comparisons - well, good luck...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,242
    edited July 2020

    We don't know - as Cyclefree points out, we can't have an inforrmed opinion without having heard all the evidence and made assessments of the peoplegiving it. However, a semi-informed shot:

    1. Definitions are here: https://www.bcl.com/services/murder-manslaughter/
    2. The prosecution argued that they would have been aware that the policeman was tangled up in the rope, but pressed ahead anyway, intending to kill him or cause him grievous bodily harm. As evidence that they were aware, they had a bodycam video showing one of the three looking in the direction of the entrapped officer, and swerving as they drove away, which they suggest was a sign that they were trying to shake off his body. Common sense suggests that if they knew they would reasonably expect to cause death or grievous harm.

    The defence argued that the defendants were unaware that the officer was tangled up and in the general panic a recorded glance was insufficient evidence. The swerve could simply have been panicky driving as they rushed away. If one accepts that they didn't know, though, then even the manslaughter charge would fail, so the jury didn't accept the defence case.

    3. The jury might have accepted that there was not evidence of intent beyond reasonable doubt. Alternatively the swerve might be evidence that they did know the officer was trapped and were trying to shake him off (which argues against "intending to kill him or cause him grievous harm"). They might also have felt thjat in panic people act without thinking it through, and that they were simply bent on getting away without really thinking about the officer one way or the other. All of these seem to me reasonable possibilities - without having been at the trial I'm not sure hoiw reasonable.

    The public is outraged because the victim was a respected police officer and the defendants are tearaway criminals. These facts make it more upsetting but should not affect the verdict - the nature of the people involved does not change the definition of murder.
    IANAL and did not follow the case but is there not another complication, which is joint enterprise? Derek Bentley and Let Him Have It? If the prosecution did not establish they were all in it together, then doubt as to whether the driver knew what the passenger could see, or whether the passenger could control the driver, might have led to that verdict.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kle4 said:

    I love that that even the concept of support for trial by jury is now being derided as mere english exceptionalism. It's one of those terms which is so overused it is becoming meaningless.
    Why? If the claim is made that trial by jury is uniquely English (by origin) and uniquely good, then surely the charge of English exceptionalism is a perfect fit? It doesn't even matter whether the claim is valid or not, because the question then is only whether the exceptionalism is justified or not.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,178
    @NickPalmer my understanding is that it doesn’t matter if they “reasonably expected” their actions to cause death or GBH, what matters is if they intended that result.

    If they expected it as a possibility, but recklessly proceeded anyway, that’s still manslaughter not murder, at least in England.

    I argued last night that if people want a 3rd degree murder offence like in America, they should lobby the Government to introduce one. Doesn’t make any difference to this case though.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,178
    This whole thing comes down to semantics. For example a woman cannot rape a man, but can sexually assault one. They are not a convicted “rapist” but the sentence is still the same.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,277
    IshmaelZ said:

    Why? If the claim is made that trial by jury is uniquely English (by origin) and uniquely good, then surely the charge of English exceptionalism is a perfect fit? It doesn't even matter whether the claim is valid or not, because the question then is only whether the exceptionalism is justified or not.
    Anyone recall the lawyers for the PIRA arguing that the Diplock courts were against human rights, since there were no juries? Just a panel of judges.

    They argued this in front of the European courts. In front of panels of judges. With no juries.....
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,242

    @NickPalmer my understanding is that it doesn’t matter if they “reasonably expected” their actions to cause death or GBH, what matters is if they intended that result.

    If they expected it as a possibility, but recklessly proceeded anyway, that’s still manslaughter not murder, at least in England.

    I argued last night that if people want a 3rd degree murder offence like in America, they should lobby the Government to introduce one. Doesn’t make any difference to this case though.

    This is where I think @HYUFD might have a point and a government with a populist Home Secretary and Number 10 already hostile to the courts might decide to throw its backbenchers, newspapers and the public some red meat.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,582
    Andy_JS said:

    Report from CNN Health:

    "Shut down the country and start over to contain Covid-19, US medical experts urge political leaders"

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/23/health/shutdown-us-contain-coronavirus-wellness/index.html

    The Land of The Free to Abuse Their Bodies:

    "About 41% of US adults have at least one underlying medical condition that may put them at a higher risk for severe Covid-19 outcomes, according to a new CDC report published Thursday."
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,346
    edited July 2020

    @NickPalmer my understanding is that it doesn’t matter if they “reasonably expected” their actions to cause death or GBH, what matters is if they intended that result.

    If they expected it as a possibility, but recklessly proceeded anyway, that’s still manslaughter not murder, at least in England.

    I argued last night that if people want a 3rd degree murder offence like in America, they should lobby the Government to introduce one. Doesn’t make any difference to this case though.

    Does this apply to everything in law? If someone says the N word and didn't intend it to be racist, even though most people reasonably expect it to be a racist word, it's their intention that matters.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,178
    In England and Wales, murder is a “specific intention” crime. The defendant must specifically intend to cause death or GBH. Carelessness or recklnessess is not enough. That has always been the case.

    Manslaughter can carry a life sentence, just the same as murder. Those arguing against it are simply arguing that it is wrong that the defendants cant be called “murderers”, at least in the eyes of the law. It’s an argument of semantics.

    If you think they should be called murderers, we need a 3rd degree murder offence.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Why? If the claim is made that trial by jury is uniquely English (by origin) and uniquely good, then surely the charge of English exceptionalism is a perfect fit? It doesn't even matter whether the claim is valid or not, because the question then is only whether the exceptionalism is justified or not.
    I wonder if any studies have been done comparing the number of miscarriages of justice occurring in various countries using different judicial systems. It would be nice to have some objective evidence one way or the other.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,178
    Andy_JS said:

    Does this apply to everything in law? If someone says the N word and didn't intend it to be racist, even though most people reasonably expect it to be a racist word, it's their intention that matters.
    No, there are certain crimes that require specific intention, and others that require intention or recklessness to the result.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,178

    Anyone recall the lawyers for the PIRA arguing that the Diplock courts were against human rights, since there were no juries? Just a panel of judges.

    They argued this in front of the European courts. In front of panels of judges. With no juries.....
    It’s not as ironic as you think. Their argument to the European courts was essentially a point of administrative law, and those are regularly argued to judges without juries here in the UK.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Fishing said:

    I think for me, devolution was one of the three great catalysts that have led to that increase:

    - the Labour Opposition's denial that Thatcherism had democratic legitimacy in Scotland, which undermined the legitimacy of the Union
    - the Labour Governmnent granting devolution, which created an alternative power centre in Edinburgh, while not creating a fully federal UK, so the structure always looked half-baked
    - the fact that, whatever one thinks of their record in government, the SNP have had two of the most skilful political leaders of my lifetime in Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon.

    A fourth might be the Brexit referendum, but I'm not so convinced that's led to an Indy surge.
    I have never been a fan of Devolution and still view it as a serious mistake , but it was a response to the rise in nationalism which had already occurred. As far back as October 1974 GE ,the SNP polled 30% of the vote in Scotland - though that did fall away subsequently.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited July 2020

    Anyone recall the lawyers for the PIRA arguing that the Diplock courts were against human rights, since there were no juries? Just a panel of judges.

    They argued this in front of the European courts. In front of panels of judges. With no juries.....
    The sky did not fall in when the Diplock courts were introduced. Nor when we pretty much abolished civil juries in 1933 - and a civil judge can feck up your liberties as a subject just as effectively as a criminal court can, by for instance bankrupting you, taking your children away from you, and making orders for breach of which you can be imprisoned.

    Two massive flaws in the jury system have been highlighted - inability to understand points of law, and intimidation. Judge only trials obviate theses difficulties at a stroke, and the countervailing argument is what? that judges are more corruptible, or more likely to act as puppets of the state, than random jurors? That makes no sense even if it is true, because the corruption opportunities are in civil trials and so are the puppet of the state opportunities - as we have repeatedly seen in brexit litigation over the last four years. No juries in that lot in the first place. I honestly don't see what the case for juries actually is, except for a lot of ill-informed historical fustian about Magna Carta.

    Edit to clarify that I don't say that the courts in fact acted as puppets of the state in the brexit litigation, only that the opportunity was there.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,178
    @IshmaelZ very interesting and thought provoking post, thank you.

    I don’t really like criminal law purely because it seems more emotive than civil law, and juries (in my opinion) are more likely to act on emotion, rather than what the law actually is - although curiously potentially not in this case.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,277

    It’s not as ironic as you think. Their argument to the European courts was essentially a point of administrative law, and those are regularly argued to judges without juries here in the UK.
    They actually argued this in national courts, fighting extradition. So telling a panel of French judges that panels of judges were against human rights....

    IIRC analysis of the results of Diplock courts found *less* miscarriages of justice. Among other things, such courts were far more likely to exclude contaminated evidence/testimony from the prosecution.
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    HYUFD said:

    So May won more Scottish Tory MPs even than Thatcher in 1987 or Major in 1992
    It was most impressive in retrospect how many remain votes the Tories actually gained in 2017 in Scotland in addition to all the unionist leave votes they gained.

    Stirling, East Renfrewshire and Aberdeen South were arguably their most impressive gains and perhaps unlikely to be won back now even if the Tories hold all their existing 6 seats.

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,178

    They actually argued this in national courts, fighting extradition. So telling a panel of French judges that panels of judges were against human rights....

    IIRC analysis of the results of Diplock courts found *less* miscarriages of justice. Among other things, such courts were far more likely to exclude contaminated evidence/testimony from the prosecution.
    I think it makes sense that panels of professional judges are more likely to get things “correct” (although this is all relative) than a bunch of amateurs.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I wonder if any studies have been done comparing the number of miscarriages of justice occurring in various countries using different judicial systems. It would be nice to have some objective evidence one way or the other.
    Difficult because if you are claiming a miscarriage of justice you are discounting the only evidence you are in practice likely to have access to, which is the decision of the court. You could approach it by seeing how often first instance decisions are overturned by appellate courts, but you have serious apple and pear problems as to what degree of doubt isrequired by differing jurisdictions to overturn a decision.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,366
    Will the 'emotional' case involve giving people a slap if they disagree with you?

    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1286951070296674306?s=20
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,706
    Yay!

    Peter Hitchens on Any Questions.

    Popcorn incoming.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,616
    edited July 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    Why? If the claim is made that trial by jury is uniquely English (by origin) and uniquely good, then surely the charge of English exceptionalism is a perfect fit? It doesn't even matter whether the claim is valid or not, because the question then is only whether the exceptionalism is justified or not.
    The use of the term is nigh universally as a criticism, of unwarranted belief in superiority, whereas I suggest it becomes meaningless if used to simply mean something that the only the English do, or almost nobody but the English and those influenced by the English do.

    If the use of exceptionalism is not used as a criticism then use of the term is pointless since the argument then becomes 'not many others do it' which is meaningless as that may or may not mean it is wrong, rather than 'not many others do it and the english defend it out of misguided belief in their own exceptionalism'.

    In this case the argument was that defending the use of juries by claim to fundamental rights was showing english exceptionalism, as though there is something untoward about different places having different views on fundamental rights, and that the english view must therefore be incorrect as it is not as common. So I think my interpretation of the use of the term being unreasonable broad in this point is not unreasonable.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,277

    I think it makes sense that panels of professional judges are more likely to get things “correct” (although this is all relative) than a bunch of amateurs.
    Oh, quite.

    A group of trained professionals, with experience of the shit that can be pulled by the prosecution, out performing a bunch of amateurs off the street.

    That really comes under Water! Is! Wet!, Shock! Findings! Show!

    That being said, I prefer juries - because of the non-professionalism.

    I have encountered the self-licking ice cream effect among lawyers - as with many professionals.

    No system that lacks an outside input does a good job. The family court stuff in the UK went that way and I have personally seen the resultant detachment from reality on the part of "the professionals".
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,178
    In my opinion the objective should be about getting the “right result” rather than arbitrary procedural “fairness”.

    Britain does this pretty well to be fair, for example the concept of “inadmissible evidence” is much less of a thing here than in America.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Anecdata:

    Local newsagents. Four of us. All masked, plus the shop owner.

    One bloke moaning though that it was hard to hear what the shop worker was asking as he was also wearing a mask.

    I entered a supermarket at 4.30 yesterday afternoon without wearing a mask. Almost immediately the security guy at the entrance asked if I had a mask , and indicated that they were mandatory when I stated I had none. I went on to explain that on two separate occasions in the course of the last week I had spoken to retail assistants there regarding what was expected of customers suffering from respiratory conditions. , and that on the second occasion I had been clearly advised that no mask would be required as condition of entry. I showed him my inhaler - and he then allowed me to continue without further interruption.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,138
    Carnyx said:

    And in any case you can ask for your house to be revalued. (The risk is if it goes up - and then your neighbours' might also ...).
    But any upward change doesn’t take effect until the house is next sold.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,616

    In England and Wales, murder is a “specific intention” crime. The defendant must specifically intend to cause death or GBH. Carelessness or recklnessess is not enough. That has always been the case.

    Manslaughter can carry a life sentence, just the same as murder. Those arguing against it are simply arguing that it is wrong that the defendants cant be called “murderers”, at least in the eyes of the law. It’s an argument of semantics.

    If you think they should be called murderers, we need a 3rd degree murder offence.

    I think the semantic point is a fair one, if unlikely to mollify the relatives of the victims. We shall have to see what the punishment ends up being, but if it is round about what you might get for a murder, thre isn't actually that much difference.
This discussion has been closed.