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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest Opinium poll has Starmer beating Johnson on thirtee

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited July 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest Opinium poll has Starmer beating Johnson on thirteen different measures yet still the Tories retain their 4% voting lead

The above chart from Opinium sets out the responses to a wide range of match-ups between Starmer and Johnson and as can be seen these sre not good for the current incumbent at Number 10.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    edited July 2020
    Expect further leads for the Tories, maybe by up to ten points until January, before falling away. Then who knows?

    First! Perhaps like Starmer.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Second, like Boris
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    bronze
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    edited July 2020
    FPT: Mr. Sandpit, sorry for the tardy reply. Those both look good to me.

    Let's hope Bottas wins and Norris is 2nd.

    Edited extra bit: a couple more tips and some thoughts are up here: https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2020/07/styrian-grand-prix-pre-race-2020.html
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    OT the wildely-trailed programme about the 13-year-old girl who did the sums to prove Spitfires and Hurricanes needed eight machine guns rather than the four originally planned was disappointing: a rambling, repetitive and heavily padded half hour badly in need of editing down to ten minutes that actually told the story.

    BBC News Channel today, Sunday 12th July at 10:30am and 4:30pm.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    Given a forced choice (as here) between Starmer and Johnson, I would go for Starmer every time. But when it comes to an election, I will still vote Lib Dem.

    This example may help to explain why the Labour Party polling is less encouraging than than that for preferences between just the two leaders.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Don't forget the Russian input.
  • DeClareDeClare Posts: 483
    The Labour party brand is still toxic.

    When canvassing I used to find that people were very reluctant to admit that they voted Labour probably because of embarrassment, in telephone polls the same thing is likely to occur. But it shouldn't happen in online polls.

    On leadership issues, Sir Keir hasn't made any real mistakes yet, probably because he hasn't done anything much at all, except he's started to deal with antisemitism, he's still got a mountain to climb there but he won't lose any points with normal people if he deals with that issue robustly.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited July 2020
    On topic and a point I made on David's Saturday thread. A plurality of voters don't care whether Johnson is competent, has the nation's interests at heart, is principled etc. As long as that's the case, he and not Starmer will be PM.

    Voters are making choices. They are choosing the charlatan. And it seems they know he is such.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    FPT On the County of Herefordshire spike.
    Foxy said:

    England case data down to low level authority -

    image

    WTF is going on in rural Herefordshire? 56 cases out of nowhere yesterday.
    Historic cases being entered?
    50 years ago a Statistics101 class might begin with a quote from Sir Josiah Stamp:
    What must be kept ever in mind, however, is that in every case, the figures are first put down by a village watchman, and he puts down anything he damn well pleases.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,132
    A long and weirdly sympathetic article focusing mainly on utopian dreaming and which seems to avoid the obvious answer, 'because it was a really stupid idea':

    Why this police-free protest zone ultimately failed?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53218448
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Cummings knows nothing about science. He uses pseudo scientific cliches to dress up his opinions and justify his ideological schemes.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Cummings knows nothing about science. He uses pseudo scientific cliches to dress up his opinions and justify his ideological schemes.
    They’re recruiting actual scientists.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    FF43 said:

    On topic and a point I made on David's Saturday thread. A plurality of voters don't care whether Johnson is competent, has the nation's interests at heart, is principled etc. As long as that's the case, he and not Starmer will be PM.

    Voters are making choices. They are choosing the charlatan. And it seems they know he is such.

    Thats all true, but it wont be in 2024, they will care about his record by then, assuming he is the candidate.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Nigelb said:
    Those masks are annoying.

    So are people, now I think on it.

    Tricky.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,132
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    GUARDIAN: Britons are prepared to pay higher taxes to turn the country into a kinder, more equal and supportive place to live after the coronavirus pandemic is over, according to new research set to be published this week. A poll carried out for the strategy consultancy BritainThinks reveals that just 12% of people want life to return to normal “exactly as it was before” once the pandemic is over.

    The research shows three clear priorities are emerging: better funding for the NHS, better treatment and pay for essential workers, and an economic recovery that doesn’t just focus on London. There is also an appetite for a kinder society that prioritises better support for people struggling with mental or physical health problems, allows workers more time off with family and friends, cares about the environment and ensures high levels of employment.

    The assumption that paying higher taxes is going to accomplish all those things, particularly in the aftermath of an extremely deep recession, is somewhat.... optimistic.
    These surveys are meaningless.

    Do you want to pay key workers more?
    Do you want an economic recovery for everyone?
    Do you want workers to have more time off?
    Do you like motherhood?
    How about apple pie?

    No one can answer in the negative without looking like a complete heel
    Quite so. Though I'm actually not a fan of apple pie.

    Also surprised at the use of wrestling lingo (unless heel also comes from other areas)
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    There are times to pause the campaign, fellas...

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1282218738922803200
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Cummings knows nothing about science. He uses pseudo scientific cliches to dress up his opinions and justify his ideological schemes.
    They’re recruiting actual scientists.
    As long they are not too remainer-y.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    Sandpit said:

    They’re recruiting actual scientists.

    Bollocks
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,132

    FF43 said:

    On topic and a point I made on David's Saturday thread. A plurality of voters don't care whether Johnson is competent, has the nation's interests at heart, is principled etc. As long as that's the case, he and not Starmer will be PM.

    Voters are making choices. They are choosing the charlatan. And it seems they know he is such.

    Thats all true, but it wont be in 2024, they will care about his record by then, assuming he is the candidate.
    It is more likely people will care about his record, but people knew his character and history in 2019 too, they knew his record. They liked it or thought it was bearable given the options. It's that which might change.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Cummings knows nothing about science. He uses pseudo scientific cliches to dress up his opinions and justify his ideological schemes.
    They’re recruiting actual scientists.
    Are they free to disagree with their lord and master if the data is unhelpful or will he sack them like all the others who have dared to offer a different view?

    It’s all ego and pseudo scientific window dressing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Scott_xP said:

    Sandpit said:

    They’re recruiting actual scientists.

    Bollocks
    Some of them will have bollocks, some will have fannies, and maybe some will have neither.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    I am wondering what percentage of people could pick Anneliese Dodds out of an ID parade. And what percentage would want to.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Cummings knows nothing about science. He uses pseudo scientific cliches to dress up his opinions and justify his ideological schemes.
    They’re recruiting actual scientists.
    You can recruit all the 'actual' you want but if they are managed by a control freak with a specific world view who demands totally loyalty, zero dissent and enforced group think then you aren't going to get decent answers.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    The polls are hardly moving right now - everything is MoE. The Tory lead could be anything from four points to 10 points, but Sunak's mini budget did not give them a lift, despite the waterfalls of cash and the adulatory headlines.

    Four months after Corbyn, Tory hubris, arrogance and incompetence have given Labour a lift because the party has a credible leader. But Labour will have to start doing some heavy lifting itself at some point. Starmer cannot do it alone. The party as a whole has spent years losing the trust of key demographics. Voters will need to see real and sustained evidence of top to bottom change before Labour starts leading in the polls.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,247
    Starmer the Charmer, indeed. :wink:
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    uncracked scientists would be better still.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    DavidL said:

    I am wondering what percentage of people could pick Anneliese Dodds out of an ID parade. And what percentage would want to.

    I am wondering how a Starmer/Sunak economic trust pairing would fare against a Johnson/Dodds one.

    More seriously, Dodds' big moments will come in the autumn. She has definitely disappointed up to now, but I amnot sure it is that smart to write her off completely until the full scale of the economic challenges we face become visible to most voters. Right now, they are abstract unless you are paying close attention.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    GUARDIAN: Britons are prepared to pay higher taxes to turn the country into a kinder, more equal and supportive place to live after the coronavirus pandemic is over, according to new research set to be published this week. A poll carried out for the strategy consultancy BritainThinks reveals that just 12% of people want life to return to normal “exactly as it was before” once the pandemic is over.

    The research shows three clear priorities are emerging: better funding for the NHS, better treatment and pay for essential workers, and an economic recovery that doesn’t just focus on London. There is also an appetite for a kinder society that prioritises better support for people struggling with mental or physical health problems, allows workers more time off with family and friends, cares about the environment and ensures high levels of employment.

    The assumption that paying higher taxes is going to accomplish all those things, particularly in the aftermath of an extremely deep recession, is somewhat.... optimistic.
    These surveys are meaningless.

    Do you want to pay key workers more?
    Do you want an economic recovery for everyone?
    Do you want workers to have more time off?
    Do you like motherhood?
    How about apple pie?

    No one can answer in the negative without looking like a complete heel
    Quite so. Though I'm actually not a fan of apple pie.

    Also surprised at the use of wrestling lingo (unless heel also comes from other areas)
    Pretty sure I remember it from PG Wodehouse and Dorothy L Sayers.
    You decide where Charles is more likely to find his inspiration.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    DavidL said:

    I am wondering what percentage of people could pick Anneliese Dodds out of an ID parade. And what percentage would want to.

    I am wondering how a Starmer/Sunak economic trust pairing would fare against a Johnson/Dodds one.

    More seriously, Dodds' big moments will come in the autumn. She has definitely disappointed up to now, but I amnot sure it is that smart to write her off completely until the full scale of the economic challenges we face become visible to most voters. Right now, they are abstract unless you are paying close attention.

    I agree that we have major challenges to face but she needs to find the ability to get a hearing about an alternative. Sunak is banking a lot of credit right now that he will (have to) draw on when things get tougher. She is not.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,707
    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Data-driven decisions are better than "plucked out of thin air decisions".

    But also always worth remembering that "lies, damned lies and statistics" is just as applicable to data science as it is to, well, statistics.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:
    Those masks are annoying.

    So are people, now I think on it.

    Tricky.
    It’s a common response.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Have we got any scientists in the cabinet? Must have surely but not aware of them, seems to be all PPE, Economics or History. Cummings who runs the cabinet did history, not science, despite his delusions.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    GUARDIAN: Britons are prepared to pay higher taxes to turn the country into a kinder, more equal and supportive place to live after the coronavirus pandemic is over, according to new research set to be published this week. A poll carried out for the strategy consultancy BritainThinks reveals that just 12% of people want life to return to normal “exactly as it was before” once the pandemic is over.

    The research shows three clear priorities are emerging: better funding for the NHS, better treatment and pay for essential workers, and an economic recovery that doesn’t just focus on London. There is also an appetite for a kinder society that prioritises better support for people struggling with mental or physical health problems, allows workers more time off with family and friends, cares about the environment and ensures high levels of employment.

    The assumption that paying higher taxes is going to accomplish all those things, particularly in the aftermath of an extremely deep recession, is somewhat.... optimistic.
    These surveys are meaningless.

    Do you want to pay key workers more?
    Do you want an economic recovery for everyone?
    Do you want workers to have more time off?
    Do you like motherhood?
    How about apple pie?

    No one can answer in the negative without looking like a complete heel
    Quite so. Though I'm actually not a fan of apple pie.

    Also surprised at the use of wrestling lingo (unless heel also comes from other areas)
    Pretty sure I remember it from PG Wodehouse and Dorothy L Sayers.
    You decide where Charles is more likely to find his inspiration.
    Charles always maintains kayfabe.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:
    Those masks are annoying.

    So are people, now I think on it.

    Tricky.
    It’s a common response.
    I am beginning to wonder if its one of those questions that you answer as you know you should to the bright, shiny person from the Guardian and slightly differently when you are in the isolation of the ballot box. You know the kind of thing, Brexit, Tory governments, etc.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    edited July 2020

    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Have we got any scientists in the cabinet? Must have surely but not aware of them, seems to be all PPE, Economics or History. Cummings who runs the cabinet did history, not science, despite his delusions.
    Apparently Coffey and Sharma out of 21.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Rawnsley: Is there room at the top of Conservative politics for two people known by their first names?

    [Rishi's] sleekness, the ready smile and an aura of polished competence make a striking contrast with the crumpled, jowly and often scowly prime minister. Mr Johnson’s rhetorical defaults are jokiness, personal abuse, boosterism and bluster. His chancellor is an elegant phrase-maker.

    Officialdom knows who it prefers. Senior civil servants shudder at what one calls the “utter dysfunctionality” of the regime at Number 10.

    The rise of Rishi is being lubricated by a personal marketing operation of a kind never before employed by a chancellor.

    Envy is a powerful driver of political behaviour. Boris Johnson would not be human – he certainly would not be Boris Johnson – if he were entirely relaxed about the sensational ascent of the younger man next door.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Scott_xP said:
    Unbelievable story!

    Somebody still cares what Gordon Brown thinks or thought a decade ago.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    Quincel said:

    There are times to pause the campaign, fellas...

    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1282218738922803200

    The Government position nicely makes the point that you really should keep a little bit further away from metric campaigners. Because, if they are being twats about metrication, they are possibly going to be twats about Covid too...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    IanB2 said:

    Rawnsley: Is there room at the top of Conservative politics for two people known by their first names?

    [Rishi's] sleekness, the ready smile and an aura of polished competence make a striking contrast with the crumpled, jowly and often scowly prime minister. Mr Johnson’s rhetorical defaults are jokiness, personal abuse, boosterism and bluster. His chancellor is an elegant phrase-maker.

    Officialdom knows who it prefers. Senior civil servants shudder at what one calls the “utter dysfunctionality” of the regime at Number 10.

    The rise of Rishi is being lubricated by a personal marketing operation of a kind never before employed by a chancellor.

    Envy is a powerful driver of political behaviour. Boris Johnson would not be human – he certainly would not be Boris Johnson – if he were entirely relaxed about the sensational ascent of the younger man next door.

    Knifing the Snake should be Johson's absolute top priority if he has any sense.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,206
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:
    Those masks are annoying.

    So are people, now I think on it.

    Tricky.
    It's the short peice of time thats critical. Wearing of masks in public is very undesirable for lots of reasons, the only positive is that it reduces the transmission of a disease which apart from in a few areas is vanishingly rare, and which isn't very dangerous to most people either.
    It's probably not possible to eradicate CV19, like the flue it's probably going to come and go each winter and unfortunately will finish off some older people.

    It would be one thing to wear masks for a month or two then go back to normal, but at present it will make almost no difference given there is almost no disease in circulation. I therefore fear that our Lords and masters intend lots of these measures for the medium to long term - hence that hateful phrase "new normal". This is what all right thinking people should be fighting against - wrecking our way of life in the long term because of a disease which doesn't pose a significant risk to most people is madness.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608


    I am wondering how a Starmer/Sunak economic trust pairing would fare against a Johnson/Dodds one.

    So when the transfer window opens, is it the Tories going for Starmer or Labour going for Rishi?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:
    Those masks are annoying.

    So are people, now I think on it.

    Tricky.
    It’s a common response.
    I am beginning to wonder if its one of those questions that you answer as you know you should to the bright, shiny person from the Guardian and slightly differently when you are in the isolation of the ballot box. You know the kind of thing, Brexit, Tory governments, etc.
    Probably. Cultural habits are deeply ingrained.
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/07/04/national/science-health/japans-history-wearing-masks-coronavirus/
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    GUARDIAN: Britons are prepared to pay higher taxes to turn the country into a kinder, more equal and supportive place to live after the coronavirus pandemic is over, according to new research set to be published this week. A poll carried out for the strategy consultancy BritainThinks reveals that just 12% of people want life to return to normal “exactly as it was before” once the pandemic is over.

    The research shows three clear priorities are emerging: better funding for the NHS, better treatment and pay for essential workers, and an economic recovery that doesn’t just focus on London. There is also an appetite for a kinder society that prioritises better support for people struggling with mental or physical health problems, allows workers more time off with family and friends, cares about the environment and ensures high levels of employment.

    The assumption that paying higher taxes is going to accomplish all those things, particularly in the aftermath of an extremely deep recession, is somewhat.... optimistic.
    These surveys are meaningless.

    Do you want to pay key workers more?
    Do you want an economic recovery for everyone?
    Do you want workers to have more time off?
    Do you like motherhood?
    How about apple pie?

    No one can answer in the negative without looking like a complete heel
    Quite so. Though I'm actually not a fan of apple pie.

    Also surprised at the use of wrestling lingo (unless heel also comes from other areas)
    According the the Cambridge English dictionary (I know) it is old-fashioned & informal...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    GUARDIAN: Britons are prepared to pay higher taxes to turn the country into a kinder, more equal and supportive place to live after the coronavirus pandemic is over, according to new research set to be published this week. A poll carried out for the strategy consultancy BritainThinks reveals that just 12% of people want life to return to normal “exactly as it was before” once the pandemic is over.

    The research shows three clear priorities are emerging: better funding for the NHS, better treatment and pay for essential workers, and an economic recovery that doesn’t just focus on London. There is also an appetite for a kinder society that prioritises better support for people struggling with mental or physical health problems, allows workers more time off with family and friends, cares about the environment and ensures high levels of employment.

    The assumption that paying higher taxes is going to accomplish all those things, particularly in the aftermath of an extremely deep recession, is somewhat.... optimistic.
    These surveys are meaningless.

    Do you want to pay key workers more?
    Do you want an economic recovery for everyone?
    Do you want workers to have more time off?
    Do you like motherhood?
    How about apple pie?

    No one can answer in the negative without looking like a complete heel
    Quite so. Though I'm actually not a fan of apple pie.

    Also surprised at the use of wrestling lingo (unless heel also comes from other areas)
    According the the Cambridge English dictionary (I know) it is old-fashioned & informal...
    Much like Professional Wrestling.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    IanB2 said:

    Rawnsley: Is there room at the top of Conservative politics for two people known by their first names?

    [Rishi's] sleekness, the ready smile and an aura of polished competence make a striking contrast with the crumpled, jowly and often scowly prime minister. Mr Johnson’s rhetorical defaults are jokiness, personal abuse, boosterism and bluster. His chancellor is an elegant phrase-maker.

    Officialdom knows who it prefers. Senior civil servants shudder at what one calls the “utter dysfunctionality” of the regime at Number 10.

    The rise of Rishi is being lubricated by a personal marketing operation of a kind never before employed by a chancellor.

    Envy is a powerful driver of political behaviour. Boris Johnson would not be human – he certainly would not be Boris Johnson – if he were entirely relaxed about the sensational ascent of the younger man next door.

    I rather suspect with Boris-Rishi were are seeing the next Cameron-Osborne team - two politician who get on very well and a have a similar view of the world. It will serve us well for the next four years. Cameron would have been happy for Osborne to succeed him; ditto the current occupants of Downing Street.

    Sorry, Mr. Rawnsley. A fluff piece.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited July 2020
    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths reported for England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Cummings knows nothing about science. He uses pseudo scientific cliches to dress up his opinions and justify his ideological schemes.
    They’re recruiting actual scientists.
    You can recruit all the 'actual' you want but if they are managed by a control freak with a specific world view who demands totally loyalty, zero dissent and enforced group think then you aren't going to get decent answers.
    The one campaign where we know he used data scientists he unexpectedly won.

    That does suggest he works well with them or has an ability to spot patterns no one else sees. I suspect the former
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths in England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    Depends if you want to keep it at zero or see it surge back up.

    If the choice is another lockdown and financial restrictions in the future or getting back to normal with a cloth mask, then does that change things?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I am wondering what percentage of people could pick Anneliese Dodds out of an ID parade. And what percentage would want to.

    I am wondering how a Starmer/Sunak economic trust pairing would fare against a Johnson/Dodds one.

    More seriously, Dodds' big moments will come in the autumn. She has definitely disappointed up to now, but I amnot sure it is that smart to write her off completely until the full scale of the economic challenges we face become visible to most voters. Right now, they are abstract unless you are paying close attention.

    I agree that we have major challenges to face but she needs to find the ability to get a hearing about an alternative. Sunak is banking a lot of credit right now that he will (have to) draw on when things get tougher. She is not.
    The issue is her only alternative seems to be “spend more”. Do what you are doing but bigger!

    When people think that Rishi is doing a decent job that doesn’t seem like a value added position to challenge him from
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    FF43 said:

    On topic and a point I made on David's Saturday thread. A plurality of voters don't care whether Johnson is competent, has the nation's interests at heart, is principled etc. As long as that's the case, he and not Starmer will be PM.

    Voters are making choices. They are choosing the charlatan. And it seems they know he is such.

    Spot on. Let's stop giving the public an easy ride. They need to grow up.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths in England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    Depends if you want to keep it at zero or see it surge back up.

    If the choice is another lockdown and financial restrictions in the future or getting back to normal with a cloth mask, then does that change things?
    Just looked at the PL table. Liverpool struggling now to reach 100 points. And Man City have a MUCH better goal difference. Casts the season in a whole new light.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I am wondering what percentage of people could pick Anneliese Dodds out of an ID parade. And what percentage would want to.

    I am wondering how a Starmer/Sunak economic trust pairing would fare against a Johnson/Dodds one.

    More seriously, Dodds' big moments will come in the autumn. She has definitely disappointed up to now, but I amnot sure it is that smart to write her off completely until the full scale of the economic challenges we face become visible to most voters. Right now, they are abstract unless you are paying close attention.

    I agree that we have major challenges to face but she needs to find the ability to get a hearing about an alternative. Sunak is banking a lot of credit right now that he will (have to) draw on when things get tougher. She is not.

    Yep, that is fair.

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    The Government of Aragon will approve the mandatory use of face masks on Monday even in situations where social distance can be maintained, a measure that is expected to take effect on Tuesday. This guideline has already been approved in communities such as Catalonia, the Balearic Islands and Extremadura and is being studied in Andalusia, which could also be approved tomorrow.
  • This has to be the largest divergence between a leader's scores and his party in a very long time.

    Such is the mess Corbyn left us with.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    GUARDIAN: Britons are prepared to pay higher taxes to turn the country into a kinder, more equal and supportive place to live after the coronavirus pandemic is over, according to new research set to be published this week. A poll carried out for the strategy consultancy BritainThinks reveals that just 12% of people want life to return to normal “exactly as it was before” once the pandemic is over.

    The research shows three clear priorities are emerging: better funding for the NHS, better treatment and pay for essential workers, and an economic recovery that doesn’t just focus on London. There is also an appetite for a kinder society that prioritises better support for people struggling with mental or physical health problems, allows workers more time off with family and friends, cares about the environment and ensures high levels of employment.

    The assumption that paying higher taxes is going to accomplish all those things, particularly in the aftermath of an extremely deep recession, is somewhat.... optimistic.
    These surveys are meaningless.

    Do you want to pay key workers more?
    Do you want an economic recovery for everyone?
    Do you want workers to have more time off?
    Do you like motherhood?
    How about apple pie?

    No one can answer in the negative without looking like a complete heel
    Quite so. Though I'm actually not a fan of apple pie.

    Also surprised at the use of wrestling lingo (unless heel also comes from other areas)
    According the the Cambridge English dictionary (I know) it is old-fashioned & informal...
    Much like Professional Wrestling.
    I grew up in the era of Big Daddy
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Cummings knows nothing about science. He uses pseudo scientific cliches to dress up his opinions and justify his ideological schemes.
    They’re recruiting actual scientists.
    You can recruit all the 'actual' you want but if they are managed by a control freak with a specific world view who demands totally loyalty, zero dissent and enforced group think then you aren't going to get decent answers.
    The one campaign where we know he used data scientists he unexpectedly won.

    That does suggest he works well with them or has an ability to spot patterns no one else sees. I suspect the former
    Unexpectedly won? The side that regularly polled ahead over the previous decade. That posted regular poll leads during the campaign period. That had the majority of the press on its side?

    That one?

    Unexpectedly?
  • The economy question is the big problem for Labour, although are a significant proportion of Labour's score don't knows, or is that not possible for this question.

    Either way, that has to be the focus. Of course up against a party literally chucking money around, I am not sure how that can be done.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited July 2020

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths reported for England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    For these speculative what ifs it is a shame we don't have an example of a country where sections of that country reopened in a manner the so called experts deemed "too early" and "utterly recklessly" to compare against.

    Because if their cases were now surging uncontrollably and deaths starting to tick up with hospitals at capacity despite the huge strides made in treatments since the start of the epidemic then this contrarian bollocks would look really fucking stupid.

    Of course, no such near perfect counter example exists so we are left in the land of what ifs.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    I see Gove has said:

    "British cabinet office minister Michael Gove said that people should go back to workplaces if it was necessary to “add value” and be a part of the “productive economy”, but in some cases it may be “appropriate and convenient” and work from home."

    This makes much more sense than Johnson's "go back to work if you can", which I assume to have been just one of his random ad libs.

    On topic, people are seeing nothing from Labour except some clips of Starmer and occasionally Ashworth. Meanwhile, gifts continue to rain down from Sunak's magic money tree. I think one of those two facts has to change before we make further progress.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited July 2020
    Johnson's popularity is plummeting partly because many tory voters are very unhappy with him.

    Among the complaints are the government's weak and tepid response to the communists and anarchists of Black Lives Matter the organisation and the culture wars in general.

    There are also big concerns about the dire economic situation and the huge dose of socialism that has been used to counter COVID.

    I think this is filtering through to MPs, who may make their unhappiness felt through opposition to Johnson's proposed EU settlement. This is being seen by some as another Johnson dogs breakfast.

    THis is going to be a horrible autumn for Johnson, one he may well not survive.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    kinabalu said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths in England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    Depends if you want to keep it at zero or see it surge back up.

    If the choice is another lockdown and financial restrictions in the future or getting back to normal with a cloth mask, then does that change things?
    Just looked at the PL table. Liverpool struggling now to reach 100 points. And Man City have a MUCH better goal difference. Casts the season in a whole new light.
    Who in Liverpool is going to risk getting injured with a new season about to start and this one in the trophy cupboard? If I were Klopp, I would massively bollock anybody who gets injured playing this season.

    Cast the end of this season in that light.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths in England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    Depends if you want to keep it at zero or see it surge back up.

    If the choice is another lockdown and financial restrictions in the future or getting back to normal with a cloth mask, then does that change things?
    The problem isn’t the mask themselves do much as the knock on implications

    They have some benefit particularly in assymptomatic cases

    If the cost is that people are scared to go shopping that has huge implications for many people. The government is attempting to navigate between Scylla and Charybdis

  • kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    On topic and a point I made on David's Saturday thread. A plurality of voters don't care whether Johnson is competent, has the nation's interests at heart, is principled etc. As long as that's the case, he and not Starmer will be PM.

    Voters are making choices. They are choosing the charlatan. And it seems they know he is such.

    Thats all true, but it wont be in 2024, they will care about his record by then, assuming he is the candidate.
    It is more likely people will care about his record, but people knew his character and history in 2019 too, they knew his record. They liked it or thought it was bearable given the options. It's that which might change.
    In 2019 they knew about his record but concluded Corbyn was worse.

    That is not the case right now and is unlikely to be the case next time around, hence the reduced polling lead.

    I mentioned yesterday, Johnson is deeply, deeply unpopular in London and his legacy is that the Tories there are totally irrelevant. The one place they seem to keep losing ground is London.

    Obviously has no impact on a GE - but I wonder if Johnson will be as unpopular as he in in London after he left office (as was the case in London), or during.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited July 2020
    Alistair said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths reported for England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    For these speculative what ifs it is a shame we don't have an example of a country where sections of that country reopened in a manner the so called experts deemed "too early" and "utterly recklessly" to compare against.

    Because if their cases were now surging uncontrollably and deaths starting to tick up with hospitals at capacity despite the huge strides made in treatments since the start of the epidemic then this contrarian bollocks would look really fucking stupid.

    Of course, no such near perfect counter example exists so we are left in the land of what ifs.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Cummings knows nothing about science. He uses pseudo scientific cliches to dress up his opinions and justify his ideological schemes.
    They’re recruiting actual scientists.
    You can recruit all the 'actual' you want but if they are managed by a control freak with a specific world view who demands totally loyalty, zero dissent and enforced group think then you aren't going to get decent answers.
    The one campaign where we know he used data scientists he unexpectedly won.

    That does suggest he works well with them or has an ability to spot patterns no one else sees. I suspect the former
    Unexpectedly won? The side that regularly polled ahead over the previous decade. That posted regular poll leads during the campaign period. That had the majority of the press on its side?

    That one?

    Unexpectedly?
    The one where bettors made a lot of money by betting against the political consensus. Yep.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing my friend
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    On topic and a point I made on David's Saturday thread. A plurality of voters don't care whether Johnson is competent, has the nation's interests at heart, is principled etc. As long as that's the case, he and not Starmer will be PM.

    Voters are making choices. They are choosing the charlatan. And it seems they know he is such.

    Spot on. Let's stop giving the public an easy ride. They need to grow up.
    It's the classic left-wing response - those nasty voters going blue.
  • Johnson's popularity is plummeting partly because many tory voters are very unhappy with him.

    Among the complaints are the government's weak and tepid response to the communists and anarchists of Black Lives Matter the organisation and the culture wars in general.

    There are also big concerns about the dire economic situation and the huge dose of socialism that has been used to counter COVID.

    I think this is filtering through to MPs, who may make their unhappiness felt through opposition to Johnson's proposed EU settlement. This is being seen by some as another Johnson dogs breakfast.

    THis is going to be a horrible autumn for Johnson, one he may well not survive.

    I am going to be fascinated to see what happens with Brexit. I remain unconvinced he can bring something back that will keep all his voters happy.

    In 2019 he managed - again - to sell Brexit as an abstract concept and that's how he got all the Brexit voters on his side. We've seen through polling time and time again, when Brexit is defined, its support drops off massively. He's going to have to define it now - and that will be all on him.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Alistair said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths reported for England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    For these speculative what ifs it is a shame we don't have an example of a country where sections of that country reopened in a manner the so called experts deemed "too early" and "utterly recklessly" to compare against.

    Because if their cases were now surging uncontrollably and deaths starting to tick up with hospitals at capacity despite the huge strides made in treatments since the start of the epidemic then this contrarian bollocks would look really fucking stupid.

    Of course, no such near perfect counter example exists so we are left in the land of what ifs.
    Victoria? (Albeit not a country)

    I think there’s a lot of luck with this virus
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Alistair said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths reported for England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    For these speculative what ifs it is a shame we don't have an example of a country where sections of that country reopened in a manner the so called experts deemed "too early" and "utterly recklessly" to compare against.

    Because if their cases were now surging uncontrollably and deaths starting to tick up with hospitals at capacity despite the huge strides made in treatments since the start of the epidemic then this contrarian bollocks would look really fucking stupid.

    Of course, no such near perfect counter example exists so we are left in the land of what ifs.
    That has already happened. Many 'experts' said that the measures Johnson did take to re-open the economy were 'too early' . Second spike predictions have been going on since the very beginning of restriction easing.

    Meanwhile, weeks later, deaths from COVID are now close to zero.

    Independent of lockdown. Just as the esteemed Doctor Gupta and the Oxford team predicted.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,132
    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    Rawnsley: Is there room at the top of Conservative politics for two people known by their first names?

    [Rishi's] sleekness, the ready smile and an aura of polished competence make a striking contrast with the crumpled, jowly and often scowly prime minister. Mr Johnson’s rhetorical defaults are jokiness, personal abuse, boosterism and bluster. His chancellor is an elegant phrase-maker.

    Officialdom knows who it prefers. Senior civil servants shudder at what one calls the “utter dysfunctionality” of the regime at Number 10.

    The rise of Rishi is being lubricated by a personal marketing operation of a kind never before employed by a chancellor.

    Envy is a powerful driver of political behaviour. Boris Johnson would not be human – he certainly would not be Boris Johnson – if he were entirely relaxed about the sensational ascent of the younger man next door.

    Knifing the Snake should be Johson's absolute top priority if he has any sense.
    You're the only one who seems to hold actual hatred for Sunak and using this term that he is a snake. Perhaps he is, but what has he done to upset you so much?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths reported for England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    For these speculative what ifs it is a shame we don't have an example of a country where sections of that country reopened in a manner the so called experts deemed "too early" and "utterly recklessly" to compare against.

    Because if their cases were now surging uncontrollably and deaths starting to tick up with hospitals at capacity despite the huge strides made in treatments since the start of the epidemic then this contrarian bollocks would look really fucking stupid.

    Of course, no such near perfect counter example exists so we are left in the land of what ifs.
    That has already happened. Many 'experts' said that the measures Johnson did take to re-open the economy were 'too early' . Second spike predictions have been going on since the very beginning of restriction easing.

    Meanwhile, weeks later, deaths from COVID are now close to zero.

    Ditto United States of America, cases and deaths basically zero.
  • felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    On topic and a point I made on David's Saturday thread. A plurality of voters don't care whether Johnson is competent, has the nation's interests at heart, is principled etc. As long as that's the case, he and not Starmer will be PM.

    Voters are making choices. They are choosing the charlatan. And it seems they know he is such.

    Spot on. Let's stop giving the public an easy ride. They need to grow up.
    It's the classic left-wing response - those nasty voters going blue.
    Yeah this is the problem Labour has. If we tell them to just fuck off and vote Tory, don't be surprised when they do.

    We really need to get over this "voters are evil, the media corrupts them" crap. Start winning elections again by figuring out what people want.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    kinabalu said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths in England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    Depends if you want to keep it at zero or see it surge back up.

    If the choice is another lockdown and financial restrictions in the future or getting back to normal with a cloth mask, then does that change things?
    Just looked at the PL table. Liverpool struggling now to reach 100 points. And Man City have a MUCH better goal difference. Casts the season in a whole new light.
    The Liverpool fans are going to be totally distraught at a couple of off results, having wrapped up the title with seven games to spare and with 30 wins so far this season.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,132
    kinabalu said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths in England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    Depends if you want to keep it at zero or see it surge back up.

    If the choice is another lockdown and financial restrictions in the future or getting back to normal with a cloth mask, then does that change things?
    Just looked at the PL table. Liverpool struggling now to reach 100 points. And Man City have a MUCH better goal difference. Casts the season in a whole new light.
    It really doesn't.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Cummings knows nothing about science. He uses pseudo scientific cliches to dress up his opinions and justify his ideological schemes.
    They’re recruiting actual scientists.
    You can recruit all the 'actual' you want but if they are managed by a control freak with a specific world view who demands totally loyalty, zero dissent and enforced group think then you aren't going to get decent answers.
    The one campaign where we know he used data scientists he unexpectedly won.

    That does suggest he works well with them or has an ability to spot patterns no one else sees. I suspect the former
    Unexpectedly won? The side that regularly polled ahead over the previous decade. That posted regular poll leads during the campaign period. That had the majority of the press on its side?

    That one?

    Unexpectedly?
    The one where bettors made a lot of money by betting against the political consensus. Yep.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing my friend

    It's not hindsight to observe that most of the polling in the lead up to referendum day indicated that Leave would win.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Johnson's popularity is plummeting partly because many tory voters are very unhappy with him.

    Among the complaints are the government's weak and tepid response to the communists and anarchists of Black Lives Matter the organisation and the culture wars in general.

    There are also big concerns about the dire economic situation and the huge dose of socialism that has been used to counter COVID.

    I think this is filtering through to MPs, who may make their unhappiness felt through opposition to Johnson's proposed EU settlement. This is being seen by some as another Johnson dogs breakfast.

    THis is going to be a horrible autumn for Johnson, one he may well not survive.

    That’s a little bit thoughtless terminology given how close he came to “not surviving” earlier this year
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths in England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    Depends if you want to keep it at zero or see it surge back up.

    If the choice is another lockdown and financial restrictions in the future or getting back to normal with a cloth mask, then does that change things?
    Just looked at the PL table. Liverpool struggling now to reach 100 points. And Man City have a MUCH better goal difference. Casts the season in a whole new light.
    Who in Liverpool is going to risk getting injured with a new season about to start and this one in the trophy cupboard? If I were Klopp, I would massively bollock anybody who gets injured playing this season.

    Cast the end of this season in that light.
    City were not bothered about the title this year. For them it's all about the CL. For Liverpool, the PL was all.

    Last season went wrong for both clubs. City won the PL when they yearned for the CL. Liverpool won the CL when they yearned for the PL. Both were focused 100% on reversing the situation this time.

    This is why at the start of the season I tipped the double of Liverpool for the title and Man City for the CL.

    I still like that.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Johnson's popularity is plummeting partly because many tory voters are very unhappy with him.

    Among the complaints are the government's weak and tepid response to the communists and anarchists of Black Lives Matter the organisation and the culture wars in general.

    There are also big concerns about the dire economic situation and the huge dose of socialism that has been used to counter COVID.

    I think this is filtering through to MPs, who may make their unhappiness felt through opposition to Johnson's proposed EU settlement. This is being seen by some as another Johnson dogs breakfast.

    THis is going to be a horrible autumn for Johnson, one he may well not survive.

    I am going to be fascinated to see what happens with Brexit. I remain unconvinced he can bring something back that will keep all his voters happy.

    In 2019 he managed - again - to sell Brexit as an abstract concept and that's how he got all the Brexit voters on his side. We've seen through polling time and time again, when Brexit is defined, its support drops off massively. He's going to have to define it now - and that will be all on him.
    I don’t think that many people really care. One you get a free trade deal the issue will subside from public view
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths in England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    Depends if you want to keep it at zero or see it surge back up.

    If the choice is another lockdown and financial restrictions in the future or getting back to normal with a cloth mask, then does that change things?
    Just looked at the PL table. Liverpool struggling now to reach 100 points. And Man City have a MUCH better goal difference. Casts the season in a whole new light.
    It really doesn't.
    It does!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    Rawnsley: Is there room at the top of Conservative politics for two people known by their first names?

    [Rishi's] sleekness, the ready smile and an aura of polished competence make a striking contrast with the crumpled, jowly and often scowly prime minister. Mr Johnson’s rhetorical defaults are jokiness, personal abuse, boosterism and bluster. His chancellor is an elegant phrase-maker.

    Officialdom knows who it prefers. Senior civil servants shudder at what one calls the “utter dysfunctionality” of the regime at Number 10.

    The rise of Rishi is being lubricated by a personal marketing operation of a kind never before employed by a chancellor.

    Envy is a powerful driver of political behaviour. Boris Johnson would not be human – he certainly would not be Boris Johnson – if he were entirely relaxed about the sensational ascent of the younger man next door.

    Knifing the Snake should be Johson's absolute top priority if he has any sense.
    You're the only one who seems to hold actual hatred for Sunak and using this term that he is a snake. Perhaps he is, but what has he done to upset you so much?
    He also thinks Liz Truss is a snake

    He’s an equal opportunity hater
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    Alistair said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths reported for England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    For these speculative what ifs it is a shame we don't have an example of a country where sections of that country reopened in a manner the so called experts deemed "too early" and "utterly recklessly" to compare against.

    Because if their cases were now surging uncontrollably and deaths starting to tick up with hospitals at capacity despite the huge strides made in treatments since the start of the epidemic then this contrarian bollocks would look really fucking stupid.

    Of course, no such near perfect counter example exists so we are left in the land of what ifs.
    Trump's America has proved a very, very useful contra-indicator for Boris. It may be one reason why the voters are again cutting him a bit of slack. That - and the Leader of the Opposition taking a knee. For those not already wedded to the cause, that just looked like the sort of thing Corbyn would have done. Starmer can perhaps take some comfort that this year it wasn't happening in the spotlight of the main stage at Glasto...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2020

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dominic Cummings is recruiting a new team of crack data scientists who will soon prove the silent (because unpolled) majority supports Boris. This is, after all, how Brexit was won.

    Oh no, imagine the horror of governments making decisions based on data and science.

    Much better to just ask all the PPE and liberal arts graduates how they *feel* about any given subject.
    Cummings knows nothing about science. He uses pseudo scientific cliches to dress up his opinions and justify his ideological schemes.
    They’re recruiting actual scientists.
    You can recruit all the 'actual' you want but if they are managed by a control freak with a specific world view who demands totally loyalty, zero dissent and enforced group think then you aren't going to get decent answers.
    The one campaign where we know he used data scientists he unexpectedly won.

    That does suggest he works well with them or has an ability to spot patterns no one else sees. I suspect the former
    Unexpectedly won? The side that regularly polled ahead over the previous decade. That posted regular poll leads during the campaign period. That had the majority of the press on its side?

    That one?

    Unexpectedly?
    The one where bettors made a lot of money by betting against the political consensus. Yep.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing my friend

    It's not hindsight to observe that most of the polling in the lead up to referendum day indicated that Leave would win.

    And yet, somehow, it came as a shock to the political and media classes.

    Expectations are not necessarily aligned with facts.

    And it is *precisely* hindsight to say “oh but it was obvious” and pick out the data that proves it
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,132

    IanB2 said:

    Rawnsley: Is there room at the top of Conservative politics for two people known by their first names?

    [Rishi's] sleekness, the ready smile and an aura of polished competence make a striking contrast with the crumpled, jowly and often scowly prime minister. Mr Johnson’s rhetorical defaults are jokiness, personal abuse, boosterism and bluster. His chancellor is an elegant phrase-maker.

    Officialdom knows who it prefers. Senior civil servants shudder at what one calls the “utter dysfunctionality” of the regime at Number 10.

    The rise of Rishi is being lubricated by a personal marketing operation of a kind never before employed by a chancellor.

    Envy is a powerful driver of political behaviour. Boris Johnson would not be human – he certainly would not be Boris Johnson – if he were entirely relaxed about the sensational ascent of the younger man next door.

    I rather suspect with Boris-Rishi were are seeing the next Cameron-Osborne team - two politician who get on very well and a have a similar view of the world. It will serve us well for the next four years. Cameron would have been happy for Osborne to succeed him; ditto the current occupants of Downing Street.

    Sorry, Mr. Rawnsley. A fluff piece.
    Maybe, but I always got the impression both Cameron and Osbourne were very happy in their roles, with Cameron the front man and Osbourne the ideas man, but Sunak is getting positive attention and is Boris comfortable with the limelight being shared, a man who prioritises his advisor over his Cabinet? Will Sunak be happy to wait for his turn as Osbourne was?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,367
    edited July 2020
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths reported for England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    For these speculative what ifs it is a shame we don't have an example of a country where sections of that country reopened in a manner the so called experts deemed "too early" and "utterly recklessly" to compare against.

    Because if their cases were now surging uncontrollably and deaths starting to tick up with hospitals at capacity despite the huge strides made in treatments since the start of the epidemic then this contrarian bollocks would look really fucking stupid.

    Of course, no such near perfect counter example exists so we are left in the land of what ifs.
    That has already happened. Many 'experts' said that the measures Johnson did take to re-open the economy were 'too early' . Second spike predictions have been going on since the very beginning of restriction easing.

    Meanwhile, weeks later, deaths from COVID are now close to zero.

    Ditto United States of America, cases and deaths basically zero.
    I put this on a thread yesterday, from the NHS England Hospital data, long before it turned up on Twitter. It is almost certainly a reporting artefact, but interesting

    image

    for context, the following is the whole data series -

    image
  • Charles said:

    Johnson's popularity is plummeting partly because many tory voters are very unhappy with him.

    Among the complaints are the government's weak and tepid response to the communists and anarchists of Black Lives Matter the organisation and the culture wars in general.

    There are also big concerns about the dire economic situation and the huge dose of socialism that has been used to counter COVID.

    I think this is filtering through to MPs, who may make their unhappiness felt through opposition to Johnson's proposed EU settlement. This is being seen by some as another Johnson dogs breakfast.

    THis is going to be a horrible autumn for Johnson, one he may well not survive.

    I am going to be fascinated to see what happens with Brexit. I remain unconvinced he can bring something back that will keep all his voters happy.

    In 2019 he managed - again - to sell Brexit as an abstract concept and that's how he got all the Brexit voters on his side. We've seen through polling time and time again, when Brexit is defined, its support drops off massively. He's going to have to define it now - and that will be all on him.
    I don’t think that many people really care. One you get a free trade deal the issue will subside from public view
    But then what does Johnson have? Beyond Brexit is where to me it seems painfully obvious he doesn't have a clue what to do.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,132
    Fishing said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Unbelievable story!

    Somebody still cares what Gordon Brown thinks or thought a decade ago.
    I know someone who says he's the best PM of the last 30 years.
  • A Government-sanctioned review of the railways by Keith Williams, the former British Airways boss, billed as the most comprehensive analysis since privatisation, “may not see the light of day,” an industry source said.

    Lol, how many times has it been delayed now? How much did the review cost?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths in England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    Depends if you want to keep it at zero or see it surge back up.

    If the choice is another lockdown and financial restrictions in the future or getting back to normal with a cloth mask, then does that change things?
    Just looked at the PL table. Liverpool struggling now to reach 100 points. And Man City have a MUCH better goal difference. Casts the season in a whole new light.
    The Liverpool fans are going to be totally distraught at a couple of off results, having wrapped up the title with seven games to spare and with 30 wins so far this season.
    My post at 9.51 explains.

    My main F1 season bets btw -

    Bought Bot, Vest, Vett at an aggregate 80 on the WDC index.

    It makes up 60/40/30/20/10/5 for 1st to 6th.

    Thus if my 3 drivers finish 2nd, 3rd, 5th I am flat.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Johnson's popularity is plummeting partly because many tory voters are very unhappy with him.

    Among the complaints are the government's weak and tepid response to the communists and anarchists of Black Lives Matter the organisation and the culture wars in general.

    There are also big concerns about the dire economic situation and the huge dose of socialism that has been used to counter COVID.

    I think this is filtering through to MPs, who may make their unhappiness felt through opposition to Johnson's proposed EU settlement. This is being seen by some as another Johnson dogs breakfast.

    THis is going to be a horrible autumn for Johnson, one he may well not survive.

    I am going to be fascinated to see what happens with Brexit. I remain unconvinced he can bring something back that will keep all his voters happy.

    In 2019 he managed - again - to sell Brexit as an abstract concept and that's how he got all the Brexit voters on his side. We've seen through polling time and time again, when Brexit is defined, its support drops off massively. He's going to have to define it now - and that will be all on him.
    I don’t think that many people really care. One you get a free trade deal the issue will subside from public view
    But then what does Johnson have? Beyond Brexit is where to me it seems painfully obvious he doesn't have a clue what to do.
    He’s fundamentally a social liberal who’s happy to spend government money.

    But why should governments have to *do* stuff? I am a great fan of masterly inactivity
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,595

    Johnson's popularity is plummeting partly because many tory voters are very unhappy with him.

    Among the complaints are the government's weak and tepid response to the communists and anarchists of Black Lives Matter the organisation and the culture wars in general.

    There are also big concerns about the dire economic situation and the huge dose of socialism that has been used to counter COVID.

    I think this is filtering through to MPs, who may make their unhappiness felt through opposition to Johnson's proposed EU settlement. This is being seen by some as another Johnson dogs breakfast.

    THis is going to be a horrible autumn for Johnson, one he may well not survive.

    As things stand I don't think Johnson will lead the Tories into the next election.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    Fishing said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Unbelievable story!

    Somebody still cares what Gordon Brown thinks or thought a decade ago.
    I know someone who says he's the best PM of the last 30 years.
    Is she called Sarah?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    It is being pointed out on twitter that the number of COVID deaths reported for England on July 10 according to official figures was.....zero.

    Which only goes to illustrate what a pile of utterly specious b*llocks that Tram cartoon posted down thread is.

    For these speculative what ifs it is a shame we don't have an example of a country where sections of that country reopened in a manner the so called experts deemed "too early" and "utterly recklessly" to compare against.

    Because if their cases were now surging uncontrollably and deaths starting to tick up with hospitals at capacity despite the huge strides made in treatments since the start of the epidemic then this contrarian bollocks would look really fucking stupid.

    Of course, no such near perfect counter example exists so we are left in the land of what ifs.
    That has already happened. Many 'experts' said that the measures Johnson did take to re-open the economy were 'too early' . Second spike predictions have been going on since the very beginning of restriction easing.

    Meanwhile, weeks later, deaths from COVID are now close to zero.

    Ditto United States of America, cases and deaths basically zero.
    I put this on a thread yesterday, from the NHS England Hospital data, long before it turned up on Twitter. It is almost certainly a reporting artefact, but interesting

    image

    for context, the following is the whole data series -

    image
    The breathless US media reporting notwithstanding, the graphs I have read show that US daily reported deaths from Corona peaked in early May at 2,700 or so.

    On July 11 they were at 729.

  • Seems to me if the train companies can't make a profit and they're going to go bust, let them fail and the Government will run the lines.

    That's how capitalism works.
This discussion has been closed.