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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TMay is becoming big problem for the Johnson/Cummings regime

SystemSystem Posts: 11,015
edited June 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TMay is becoming big problem for the Johnson/Cummings regime

Reminder. Boris Johnson is taking the Tory parliamentary party for granted. This is no problem for Dominic Cummings, because he hates the Tory party anyway. But in time it will, history suggests, turn out to be a grave mistake for Boris Johnson. https://t.co/sB7FbhKZ6k

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,953
    Equally I don't think any current party leadership has been quite so incompetent in their handling of things.

  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,882
    Unless any of the poodles in cabinet jump, Cummings will brush this off
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,922
    I don't think May is a problem. Cummings will welcome her attacks. It will help him define his administration against hers.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:

    Unless any of the poodles in cabinet jump, Cummings will brush this off

    Even if they do, how many Cabinet Ministers did disastrous May lose before she was forced out?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,610
    edited June 2020
    Because of who she is and the powerful way she puts her points she is going to get considerable media attention

    On the BBC News @ 1.

    Revenge is a dish etc.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Remember how much of a 'problem' the condemnation of John Major and Tony Blair was before the election? They allowed Boris to contrast himself favourably against disliked figures from both the Tory and the Labour past, to great electoral effect.

    No one but no one is pining to have May back.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,914
    edited June 2020

  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,953

    I don't think May is a problem. Cummings will welcome her attacks. It will help him define his administration against hers.

    And all the time given the disaster this regime will be it will make Mrs May look better and better in retrospect.

    Which means she will eventually leap frog Boris and Cameron to be the 3rd worst PM of all time.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,914
    edited June 2020

    I don't think May is a problem. Cummings will welcome her attacks. It will help him define his administration against hers.

    Pause for effect... confused look...

    "What, you think Johnson is in charge?!"

    Sips from glass of water

    😝
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    Sour grapes don't taste good do they?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    isam said:


    Climbing the greasy pole ;)
  • Options
    coachcoach Posts: 250
    Is there anything less dignified than a failed PM slagging off their successor?

    Absolutely nothing story
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    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    edited June 2020
    Theresa May was a catastrophically bad prime minister who nearly got beat by Jeremy bloody Corbyn. No one gives a tinker's feck what she thinks.

    Especially on the day when it is revealed that, alone amongst European leaders, she allowed herself to be humiliated and bullied by the appalling Trump. Merkel shrugged him off, despite the abuse.


    https://twitter.com/LovedayM/status/1277945412301848578?s=20

    That is a truly eye-watering piece of journalism, BTW. Definitely worth a read not just for the Theresa May bits. Tells you exactly how bad Trump has been for America, democracy and the West.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781

    Remember how much of a 'problem' the condemnation of John Major and Tony Blair was before the election? They allowed Boris to contrast himself favourably against disliked figures from both the Tory and the Labour past, to great electoral effect.

    No one but no one is pining to have May back.

    Oh dear, when will you learn? Holding the most important executive position in the country isn't just about winning an election against a joke of an opposition leader. It is about the business of governing. Johnson has no executive skills, no management skills. His oratory is amateurish at best and the people he brings to the table are weak. You are so obsessed about his easy win at the last GE that you have failed to notice that he is a fucking disaster as PM. If it wasn't so serious it would be laughable.

    People are at last beginning to see what Trump is all about. Soon they will see what our joke of a "leader" is also about. Governing the country is about more than winning beauty contests for ugly people.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,882
    coach said:

    Is there anything less dignified than a failed PM slagging off their successor?

    A failed PM claiming to be Churchill. Or FDR.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,411
    edited June 2020

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    Ted Heath (and it's interesting that the current battles have forced his head off the Public Enemy No 1 spike) says hello. As does Lady T.

    The thing about TM's interventions is that they're excellently pointed questions. There's clearly a massive gap between "put the best experts in place and don't shuffle everyone around all the time" and recent events. Put aside your like or dislike of TMexPM, it's a damn good question. And Gove doesn't have an answer.

    But you'd expect the shoe lady to know about stilettos.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,922

    £5bn in the current climate is chicken feed. And I’m no big state spender.

    I assume there’s more to come as if Boris and Sunak really want to pump-prime the British economy we’re talking of the need for a sustained £100-250bn of infrastructure spending over 2-3 years. Not this.

    They have already cut the budget for affordable housing. The danger that the Tories have is that they are making a lot of very big promises. People will notice if they do not deliver on them.

  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781

    Scott_xP said:

    Unless any of the poodles in cabinet jump, Cummings will brush this off

    Even if they do, how many Cabinet Ministers did disastrous May lose before she was forced out?
    She didn't surround herself with lightweights and sycophants. That in itself indicates more leadership ability than The Clown.
  • Options
    coachcoach Posts: 250
    Scott_xP said:

    coach said:

    Is there anything less dignified than a failed PM slagging off their successor?

    A failed PM claiming to be Churchill. Or FDR.
    I'm not sure any of what you've written there is true, but never mind
  • Options
    coachcoach Posts: 250

    £5bn in the current climate is chicken feed. And I’m no big state spender.

    I assume there’s more to come as if Boris and Sunak really want to pump-prime the British economy we’re talking of the need for a sustained £100-250bn of infrastructure spending over 2-3 years. Not this.

    They have already cut the budget for affordable housing. The danger that the Tories have is that they are making a lot of very big promises. People will notice if they do not deliver on them.

    Yes they will and that's when we see what Starmer is all about. Corbyn played top trumps with the economy, I'm curious to see what Starmer's approach is.
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    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781
    LadyG said:

    Theresa May was a catastrophically bad prime minister who nearly got beat by Jeremy bloody Corbyn. No one gives a tinker's feck what she thinks.

    Especially on the day when it is revealed that, alone amongst European leaders, she allowed herself to be humiliated and bullied by the appalling Trump. Merkel shrugged him off, despite the abuse.


    https://twitter.com/LovedayM/status/1277945412301848578?s=20

    That is a truly eye-watering piece of journalism, BTW. Definitely worth a read not just for the Theresa May bits. Tells you exactly how bad Trump has been for America, democracy and the West.

    ...and Johnson is our version. Populists are bad for any nations health. Trump has been terrible for the US reputation and Johnson is the same for ours. At least TMay had a certain dignity. Johnson is a clown.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Don't think it's much use comparing May with Johnson. The choice currently is Johnson or Starmer.

    On the vast majority of counts, Starmer's better.

    However, his kneeling before a mob and his yet to be fleshed out plans to carve England into pieces sit not at all well with me.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Scott_xP said:

    Unless any of the poodles in cabinet jump, Cummings will brush this off

    Even if they do, how many Cabinet Ministers did disastrous May lose before she was forced out?
    She didn't surround herself with lightweights and sycophants. That in itself indicates more leadership ability than The Clown.
    No lightweights or sycophants in May's Cabinet?

    So you fully approve of not just Johnson himself, David Davis, Liam Fox, Chris Grayling, Andrea Leadsom etc?

    And I assume you approve of those Cabinet Ministers Johnson has that May had like Raab, Patel and Williamson?
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    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781
    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,019
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:


    Climbing the greasy pole ;)
    I believe a tongue can be as useful as hands and feet in that activity.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    Don't think it's much use comparing May with Johnson. The choice currently is Johnson or Starmer.

    On the vast majority of counts, Starmer's better.

    However, his kneeling before a mob and his yet to be fleshed out plans to carve England into pieces sit not at all well with me.

    Starmer isn't going for that bloody English devolution thing again, is he? Don't they ever learn?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,545
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    coachcoach Posts: 250
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Theresa May was a catastrophically bad prime minister who nearly got beat by Jeremy bloody Corbyn. No one gives a tinker's feck what she thinks.

    Especially on the day when it is revealed that, alone amongst European leaders, she allowed herself to be humiliated and bullied by the appalling Trump. Merkel shrugged him off, despite the abuse.


    https://twitter.com/LovedayM/status/1277945412301848578?s=20

    That is a truly eye-watering piece of journalism, BTW. Definitely worth a read not just for the Theresa May bits. Tells you exactly how bad Trump has been for America, democracy and the West.

    ...and Johnson is our version. Populists are bad for any nations health. Trump has been terrible for the US reputation and Johnson is the same for ours. At least TMay had a certain dignity. Johnson is a clown.
    TMay had no dignity at all. She was mortifying to watch, she was an endless embarrassment in office, she was supposedly strong yet she allowed herself to be pushed around, isolated, spurned, scorned. She achieved nothing and did it with zero style. She was anti-charisma. And God she was boring.

    It is all summed up in that one indisputable fact: she went for an election when she was about 400 percent ahead in the polls, and she ended up losing her majority to..... Jeremy bloody Corbyn. FFS.
    You forgot to mention the dancing.

    A truly disastrous PM
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    FPT:
    LadyG said:

    ...

    One of very few films made before World War 2 which can still be watched with genuine interest and emotional satisfaction.

    Others that spring to mind are Metropolis, the Wizard of Oz, Nosferatu. After that examples are hard to find...

    The General - Buster Keaton
    A Cottage on Dartmoor - Anthony Asquith
    La Grande Illusion - Jean Renoir
    La Règle du Jeu - Jean Renoir
    Ninotchka - Ernst Lubitsch

    A lot more in the 1940s, of course.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,882
    DavidL said:

    Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    Every word of that applies to BoZo, given that everything he says is written by Cummings.

    no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers
  • Options
    NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    eek said:

    I don't think May is a problem. Cummings will welcome her attacks. It will help him define his administration against hers.

    And all the time given the disaster this regime will be it will make Mrs May look better and better in retrospect.

    Which means she will eventually leap frog Boris and Cameron to be the 3rd worst PM of all time.
    Given they happen to be the 3 most recent Tory PMs I'm not sure you can be classified as an objective observer.
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    coachcoach Posts: 250

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    Out of interest, who do you consider to be good leaders?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Theresa May was a catastrophically bad prime minister who nearly got beat by Jeremy bloody Corbyn. No one gives a tinker's feck what she thinks.

    Especially on the day when it is revealed that, alone amongst European leaders, she allowed herself to be humiliated and bullied by the appalling Trump. Merkel shrugged him off, despite the abuse.


    https://twitter.com/LovedayM/status/1277945412301848578?s=20

    That is a truly eye-watering piece of journalism, BTW. Definitely worth a read not just for the Theresa May bits. Tells you exactly how bad Trump has been for America, democracy and the West.

    ...and Johnson is our version. Populists are bad for any nations health. Trump has been terrible for the US reputation and Johnson is the same for ours. At least TMay had a certain dignity. Johnson is a clown.
    TMay had no dignity at all. She was mortifying to watch, she was an endless embarrassment in office, she was supposedly strong yet she allowed herself to be pushed around, isolated, spurned, scorned. She achieved nothing and did it with zero style. She was anti-charisma. And God she was boring.

    It is all summed up in that one indisputable fact: she went for an election when she was about 400 percent ahead in the polls, and she ended up losing her majority to..... Jeremy bloody Corbyn. FFS.
    Always tried to put the country first though.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,610
    Worth watching the full clip & May's reaction to Gove's reply:

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1277944853876355072?s=20
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited June 2020
    On topic: I see many ad feminam attacks on the splendidly cross Mrs May (why couldn't she show so much passion when she was PM?).

    But she's right, isn't she?
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    I remember the embarrassed silence when Trump asked why the Germans were shovelling billions into the Russian war machine via their energy deal, and at the same time expecting the Americans to stump up for the defence of Western Europe.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,411

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    And from some point between 2016 and 2019, she was being fairly systematically undermined by those who wanted her job.

    Boris, of course, has avoided that by sacking anyone who might be a competitor. You may think of that as strong leadership, but I think the "cowardly bullying" interpretation is more accurate.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,210

    £5bn in the current climate is chicken feed. And I’m no big state spender.

    I assume there’s more to come as if Boris and Sunak really want to pump-prime the British economy we’re talking of the need for a sustained £100-250bn of infrastructure spending over 2-3 years. Not this.

    I agree. What I don't understand is why this speech was given the big build up or the New Deal comparators when there is so little in it. If there is no money left or the smoke has yet to clear sufficiently to decide where best to spend it (a perfectly legitimate position) then just don't make the speech. If it is thought a good idea to rally the troops etc skip the big build up (and the build, build, build logo, even if it does take the piss out of Nicola).
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    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781

    Scott_xP said:

    Unless any of the poodles in cabinet jump, Cummings will brush this off

    Even if they do, how many Cabinet Ministers did disastrous May lose before she was forced out?
    She didn't surround herself with lightweights and sycophants. That in itself indicates more leadership ability than The Clown.
    No lightweights or sycophants in May's Cabinet?

    So you fully approve of not just Johnson himself, David Davis, Liam Fox, Chris Grayling, Andrea Leadsom etc?

    And I assume you approve of those Cabinet Ministers Johnson has that May had like Raab, Patel and Williamson?
    You are correct in your disparagement of the above -all are middle managers at best. She did, however, attempt to put people into government that were not all "yes men/women", and many, including the worst Foreign Sec in my memory, Boris Johnson, were rivals. Prime Minister Boris Johnson only largely promotes those that are not a threat to him, which is very very weak. No leadership skills.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,019

    Don't think it's much use comparing May with Johnson. The choice currently is Johnson or Starmer.

    On the vast majority of counts, Starmer's better.

    However, his kneeling before a mob and his yet to be fleshed out plans to carve England into pieces sit not at all well with me.

    Fear not MD, a new Conservative English National party may be about to come into being.

    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1277954288367677441?s=20
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914

    On topic: I see many ad feminam attacks on the splendidly cross Mrs May (why couldn't she show so much passion when she was PM?).

    But she's right, isn't she?

    A second rate leader. But better than the current fourth rate one.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781

    On topic: I see many ad feminam attacks on the splendidly cross Mrs May (why couldn't she show so much passion when she was PM?).

    But she's right, isn't she?

    Yes, and a very good question.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,494
    CatMan said:
    He will invariably grasp at any available amusing faction to illustrate an argument. He's never cared whether they're true or not - and on multiple occasions has appeared to invent them.

    No one cares.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,184

    Worth watching the full clip & May's reaction to Gove's reply:

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1277944853876355072?s=20

    Is Gove's statement even true?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,210

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    I regret to say I am not impressed by your self declared expertise or your impartiality. And the exercise you describe is undertaken by every voter before every election so it would appear that yours is very much a minority view.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,494
    coach said:

    Is there anything less dignified than a failed PM slagging off their successor?

    Absolutely nothing story

    In this case, perhaps, the successor.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    I know you're so blinded by rage over Brexit you've lost all critical thinking but come on!

    To put it in a way @TheScreamingEagles should understand (but likely won't agree with) Theresa May was the Hicks and Gillette of leaders while Johnson is FSG.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,494

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    Ted Heath (and it's interesting that the current battles have forced his head off the Public Enemy No 1 spike) says hello. As does Lady T.

    The thing about TM's interventions is that they're excellently pointed questions. There's clearly a massive gap between "put the best experts in place and don't shuffle everyone around all the time" and recent events. Put aside your like or dislike of TMexPM, it's a damn good question. And Gove doesn't have an answer.

    But you'd expect the shoe lady to know about stilettos.
    The problem in this case, though, is not so much ad hominem, as ex femina.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,922
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    I regret to say I am not impressed by your self declared expertise or your impartiality. And the exercise you describe is undertaken by every voter before every election so it would appear that yours is very much a minority view.

    The election told us that most voters thought Johnson was a better choice than Corbyn, not that they felt he was in any way a capable leader.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,610

    On topic: I see many ad feminam attacks on the splendidly cross Mrs May (why couldn't she show so much passion when she was PM?).

    But she's right, isn't she?

    This is her second incisive question in as many weeks. She's enjoying this, and she's not going anywhere....
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    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Pulpstar said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Theresa May was a catastrophically bad prime minister who nearly got beat by Jeremy bloody Corbyn. No one gives a tinker's feck what she thinks.

    Especially on the day when it is revealed that, alone amongst European leaders, she allowed herself to be humiliated and bullied by the appalling Trump. Merkel shrugged him off, despite the abuse.


    https://twitter.com/LovedayM/status/1277945412301848578?s=20

    That is a truly eye-watering piece of journalism, BTW. Definitely worth a read not just for the Theresa May bits. Tells you exactly how bad Trump has been for America, democracy and the West.

    ...and Johnson is our version. Populists are bad for any nations health. Trump has been terrible for the US reputation and Johnson is the same for ours. At least TMay had a certain dignity. Johnson is a clown.
    TMay had no dignity at all. She was mortifying to watch, she was an endless embarrassment in office, she was supposedly strong yet she allowed herself to be pushed around, isolated, spurned, scorned. She achieved nothing and did it with zero style. She was anti-charisma. And God she was boring.

    It is all summed up in that one indisputable fact: she went for an election when she was about 400 percent ahead in the polls, and she ended up losing her majority to..... Jeremy bloody Corbyn. FFS.
    Always tried to put the country first though.
    Did she? All she had to do was deliver Brexit, which she failed to do because she has zero leadership and political skills, she also has zero cunning and a negative amount of campaigning ability, hence her screwing up the election.

    If she really wanted to put the country first she would NEVER have made that calamitous conference speech ("citizens of nowhere") after the Referendum, which pointlessly offended everyone in Europe, made Britain look pinched and mean, alienated all moderate Remainers, and immediately laid down hugely damaging red lines, which boxed Britain in to a massively difficult Brexit.

    Up to that point there was loads of room for flexibility, maybe EEA for a while, maybe something Swiss, but then the Stupid TMay put Britain last and her career first by f*cking it all up. I hate to be ungallant but she's a cretinous halfwit.

    The only time she put Britain first is when she resigned as PM.
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781
    coach said:

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    Out of interest, who do you consider to be good leaders?
    I have one minute, before work! If you are referring to PMs it is quite obvious (tho all have flaws):Thatcher, Blair, Churchill. To some extent Wilson. Also, despite the disasters that beset him, Major was a very good leader, though undermined by intellectual lightweights in his own party like IDS. Cameron also had strong leadership ability. Johnson is a joke when measured against any of these. Even he knows it.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    In your masterful evaluation of leadership skills over two decades, how many general election landslides did you win? Because you do come across a little bit like a film reviewer for the Scunthorpe Telegraph slagging off Martin Scorsese...
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,210
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Theresa May was a catastrophically bad prime minister who nearly got beat by Jeremy bloody Corbyn. No one gives a tinker's feck what she thinks.

    Especially on the day when it is revealed that, alone amongst European leaders, she allowed herself to be humiliated and bullied by the appalling Trump. Merkel shrugged him off, despite the abuse.


    https://twitter.com/LovedayM/status/1277945412301848578?s=20

    That is a truly eye-watering piece of journalism, BTW. Definitely worth a read not just for the Theresa May bits. Tells you exactly how bad Trump has been for America, democracy and the West.

    ...and Johnson is our version. Populists are bad for any nations health. Trump has been terrible for the US reputation and Johnson is the same for ours. At least TMay had a certain dignity. Johnson is a clown.
    TMay had no dignity at all. She was mortifying to watch, she was an endless embarrassment in office, she was supposedly strong yet she allowed herself to be pushed around, isolated, spurned, scorned. She achieved nothing and did it with zero style. She was anti-charisma. And God she was boring.

    It is all summed up in that one indisputable fact: she went for an election when she was about 400 percent ahead in the polls, and she ended up losing her majority to..... Jeremy bloody Corbyn. FFS.
    It is part of the ever running theme that Boris is just "lucky" and in particular lucky in his choice of opponents whether red Ken or Corbyn (we'll skip over getting the better of Cameron and Osborne, the most effective team since very early Blair/Brown, arguably better and certainly more united). And yet we have a direct comparison with Corbyn. A lost majority and a majority of 80. This argument is ridiculous.

    Of course it doesn't mean that Boris is right about everything (he isn't) or that she was wrong about everything (she wasn't) but one can lead and one can't. It's tested and proven. End of.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,550
    Lockdown Deviant = great name for a rock band!

    Theresa May = Ted Heath in a pantsuit?

    As for Boris Johnson, seems to me that his hair is getting wilder and wilder by the day. He's almost back to his full bleach-blond tumble-weed glory. Looks (literally) like he threw away the comb and went back to using a weed-wacker.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,324
    FPT (too busy/dozy to have seen the new thread)

    ydoethur said:

    You and @DecrepiterJohnL really are a precious pair when it comes to ignorance of how jaw-droppingly useless some of our nineteenth and twentieth century PMs were.
    You think we should agree with Professor Sassoon that David Cameron was the worst Prime Minister ever?
    https://politicalquarterly.blog/2020/01/28/the-worst-british-prime-minister-ever/

    I'm with Paxo. Cameron was merely the worst since Lord North.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek3l9iaByro

  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited June 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    On topic: I see many ad feminam attacks on the splendidly cross Mrs May (why couldn't she show so much passion when she was PM?).

    But she's right, isn't she?

    A second rate leader. But better than the current fourth rate one.
    Yes. In normal times she'd have been an OK PM, but having screwed up the election she lost all authority, and squaring the Brexit circle was impossible anyway as Boris is showing us. She was also the worst possible personality for the very special role of being PM in a hung parliament. That required someone clubbable and affable, who could wheedle, bribe, flatter and subtly threaten - a modern-day Harold Wilson. She was completely unsuited to that role.
  • Options
    TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    What an idiotic post by Jennifer Rankin. Whether the UK government wants a formal intelligence and defence treaty or not with the EU, the issues are being discussed as part of the Brexit process.

    I also fail to understand the issue about a diplomat being selected to do the intelligence czar job or the idea that diplomats have no expertise in security and defence. All top diplomats spend the majority of their careers in Chancery jobs. Politics, trade, defence and intelligence are not really separate issues, rather different facets of the same thing. And the JIC always used to be chaired by a diplomat. Not sure if it still is.
    Scott_xP said:
  • Options
    NormNorm Posts: 1,251

    On topic: I see many ad feminam attacks on the splendidly cross Mrs May (why couldn't she show so much passion when she was PM?).

    But she's right, isn't she?

    This is her second incisive question in as many weeks. She's enjoying this, and she's not going anywhere....
    Bit like her time in office when she spent the best part of 3 years not going anywhere.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    edited June 2020
    LadyG said:

    Pulpstar said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Theresa May was a catastrophically bad prime minister who nearly got beat by Jeremy bloody Corbyn. No one gives a tinker's feck what she thinks.

    Especially on the day when it is revealed that, alone amongst European leaders, she allowed herself to be humiliated and bullied by the appalling Trump. Merkel shrugged him off, despite the abuse.


    https://twitter.com/LovedayM/status/1277945412301848578?s=20

    That is a truly eye-watering piece of journalism, BTW. Definitely worth a read not just for the Theresa May bits. Tells you exactly how bad Trump has been for America, democracy and the West.

    ...and Johnson is our version. Populists are bad for any nations health. Trump has been terrible for the US reputation and Johnson is the same for ours. At least TMay had a certain dignity. Johnson is a clown.
    TMay had no dignity at all. She was mortifying to watch, she was an endless embarrassment in office, she was supposedly strong yet she allowed herself to be pushed around, isolated, spurned, scorned. She achieved nothing and did it with zero style. She was anti-charisma. And God she was boring.

    It is all summed up in that one indisputable fact: she went for an election when she was about 400 percent ahead in the polls, and she ended up losing her majority to..... Jeremy bloody Corbyn. FFS.
    Always tried to put the country first though.
    Did she? All she had to do was deliver Brexit, which she failed to do because she has zero leadership and political skills, she also has zero cunning and a negative amount of campaigning ability, hence her screwing up the election.

    If she really wanted to put the country first she would NEVER have made that calamitous conference speech ("citizens of nowhere") after the Referendum, which pointlessly offended everyone in Europe, made Britain look pinched and mean, alienated all moderate Remainers, and immediately laid down hugely damaging red lines, which boxed Britain in to a massively difficult Brexit.

    Up to that point there was loads of room for flexibility, maybe EEA for a while, maybe something Swiss, but then the Stupid TMay put Britain last and her career first by f*cking it all up. I hate to be ungallant but she's a cretinous halfwit.

    The only time she put Britain first is when she resigned as PM.
    Not much of that refutes that she tried to put the country first ! I didn't say she was particularly good at it. But she definitely had strong morals and principles.

    The attempted reform at social care probably defines her premiership best in all sorts of ways.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    Worth watching the full clip & May's reaction to Gove's reply:

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1277944853876355072?s=20

    Is Gove's statement even true?
    lol. I just watched this devastating intervention from the worst prime minister in the last 50 years. She sounds like a retired headmistress shouting at her bemused neighbour after a lunchtime sherry.
  • Options
    coachcoach Posts: 250

    coach said:

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    Out of interest, who do you consider to be good leaders?
    I have one minute, before work! If you are referring to PMs it is quite obvious (tho all have flaws):Thatcher, Blair, Churchill. To some extent Wilson. Also, despite the disasters that beset him, Major was a very good leader, though undermined by intellectual lightweights in his own party like IDS. Cameron also had strong leadership ability. Johnson is a joke when measured against any of these. Even he knows it.
    I think its too early to judge Boris tbh, he's come into an unprecedented situation.

    Incidentally I didn't vote for him but I wouldn't be jumping to any conclusions about his leadership until or unless he steers us out of the financial mess that's about to hit us.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,494
    Statement from the Chief Investigators of the Randomised Evaluation of COVid-19 thERapY (RECOVERY) Trial on lopinavir-ritonavir, 29 June 2020
    https://www.recoverytrial.net/files/lopinavir-ritonavir-recovery-statement-29062020_final.pdf
    No clinical benefit from use of lopinavir-ritonavir in hospitalised COVID-19 patients studied in RECOVERY
  • Options
    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    In your masterful evaluation of leadership skills over two decades, how many general election landslides did you win? Because you do come across a little bit like a film reviewer for the Scunthorpe Telegraph slagging off Martin Scorsese...
    Oh dear, you are doing it again. So he can be a hopeless PM, but if he wins an election that is good enough for you? No wonder the Tory party , the one time party of Mrs Thatcher has gone to hell in a handcart if you are bluest blue. Pathetic. With that, I must do some work.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,019

    FPT:

    LadyG said:

    ...

    One of very few films made before World War 2 which can still be watched with genuine interest and emotional satisfaction.

    Others that spring to mind are Metropolis, the Wizard of Oz, Nosferatu. After that examples are hard to find...

    The General - Buster Keaton
    A Cottage on Dartmoor - Anthony Asquith
    La Grande Illusion - Jean Renoir
    La Règle du Jeu - Jean Renoir
    Ninotchka - Ernst Lubitsch

    A lot more in the 1940s, of course.
    There are tons, these are but a few.

    All Quiet on the Western Front
    Battleship Potemkin
    Frankenstein
    The Lady Vanishes
    The Adventures of Robin Hood
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,588
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:


    Climbing the greasy pole ;)
    Early in my career, I was given the advice "it doesn't matter how many arses that you have to kiss, you can always wash your face". I didn't follow it, but it seems good advice for a Westminster career.

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,970
    edited June 2020
    coach said:

    coach said:

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    Out of interest, who do you consider to be good leaders?
    I have one minute, before work! If you are referring to PMs it is quite obvious (tho all have flaws):Thatcher, Blair, Churchill. To some extent Wilson. Also, despite the disasters that beset him, Major was a very good leader, though undermined by intellectual lightweights in his own party like IDS. Cameron also had strong leadership ability. Johnson is a joke when measured against any of these. Even he knows it.
    I think its too early to judge Boris tbh, he's come into an unprecedented situation.

    Incidentally I didn't vote for him but I wouldn't be jumping to any conclusions about his leadership until or unless he steers us out of the financial mess that's about to hit us.
    I hope you're sitting comfortably; you've a LONG wait ahead.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    edited June 2020

    coach said:

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    Out of interest, who do you consider to be good leaders?
    I have one minute, before work! If you are referring to PMs it is quite obvious (tho all have flaws):Thatcher, Blair, Churchill. To some extent Wilson. Also, despite the disasters that beset him, Major was a very good leader, though undermined by intellectual lightweights in his own party like IDS. Cameron also had strong leadership ability. Johnson is a joke when measured against any of these. Even he knows it.
    It's far too early to judge Johnson. On the plus side, he's obviously better at elections than anyone since Blair. On the down side, he's obviously not good at managing pandemics.

    If he lasts the distance, the time to assess him will be 2024, when Brexit is done, and when the damn virus has (hopefully) dwindled in the rearview mirror
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    LadyG said:

    It's far too early to judge Johnson. On the plus side, he's obviously better at elections than anyone since Blair. ...

    One election. Against Corbyn. On a false prospectus.

    We can be pretty damned sure that it won't go so well next time.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    FPT:

    LadyG said:

    ...

    One of very few films made before World War 2 which can still be watched with genuine interest and emotional satisfaction.

    Others that spring to mind are Metropolis, the Wizard of Oz, Nosferatu. After that examples are hard to find...

    The General - Buster Keaton
    A Cottage on Dartmoor - Anthony Asquith
    La Grande Illusion - Jean Renoir
    La Règle du Jeu - Jean Renoir
    Ninotchka - Ernst Lubitsch

    A lot more in the 1940s, of course.
    There are tons, these are but a few.

    All Quiet on the Western Front
    Battleship Potemkin
    Frankenstein
    The Lady Vanishes
    The Adventures of Robin Hood
    Yes, I stand corrected. There's quite a few great movies from before 1940.

    I still believe Gone With The Wind is one of them. Apart from anything else, it's an amazing technical achievement, eg the "burning of Atlanta" is impressive even now
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,970

    Scott_xP said:

    Unless any of the poodles in cabinet jump, Cummings will brush this off

    Even if they do, how many Cabinet Ministers did disastrous May lose before she was forced out?
    She didn't surround herself with lightweights and sycophants. That in itself indicates more leadership ability than The Clown.
    She made Johnson Foreign Sec.
  • Options
    coachcoach Posts: 250

    coach said:

    coach said:

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    Out of interest, who do you consider to be good leaders?
    I have one minute, before work! If you are referring to PMs it is quite obvious (tho all have flaws):Thatcher, Blair, Churchill. To some extent Wilson. Also, despite the disasters that beset him, Major was a very good leader, though undermined by intellectual lightweights in his own party like IDS. Cameron also had strong leadership ability. Johnson is a joke when measured against any of these. Even he knows it.
    I think its too early to judge Boris tbh, he's come into an unprecedented situation.

    Incidentally I didn't vote for him but I wouldn't be jumping to any conclusions about his leadership until or unless he steers us out of the financial mess that's about to hit us.
    I hope you're sitting comfortably; you've a LONG wait ahead.
    On that we agree, I read somewhere that a statement is due on the economy.

    It reminds me of when I'm racing and backing a 33/1 shot in the last to try and recoup my losses. Even on a site that you'd think was quite savvy most people are oblivious to the state we're in.
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,768
    Interesting that a lot of people are talking about May's time as PM and not at what she actually said today.
  • Options
    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    It's far too early to judge Johnson. On the plus side, he's obviously better at elections than anyone since Blair. ...

    One election. Against Corbyn. On a false prospectus.

    We can be pretty damned sure that it won't go so well next time.
    Two mayoral elections (in a Labour city), one incredible referendum win, one remarkable election win.

    He is better at elections than anyone since Blair. It's asinine to deny this.

    What is debatable is his stature as PM. Too soon to decide.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    edited June 2020
    isam said:


    £500k to a million for a whole town is chicken feed. Newcastle under Lyme has a population of 150000 at a guess. That is £7 per head if they get the full million.
    Edit. 128 000 population.
    A bonanza of £8 per person.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,588
    CatMan said:

    Interesting that a lot of people are talking about May's time as PM and not at what she actually said today.

    Yes, I didn't have any time for her, but her point today is valid.

    It seems to spread Mr Frost a bit thin to have him in charge of both Brexit negotiations and this new brief.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    edited June 2020
    LadyG said:


    It's far too early to judge Johnson. On the plus side, he's obviously better at elections than anyone since Blair. On the down side, he's obviously not good at managing pandemics.

    1/2 of his opponents were the remain side that fought on (And with constant trickery) to try and stop Brexit way past what the average person thought was reasonable and the other half of the opposition was Jeremy Corbyn and his followers.

    2019 was about as perfect a circumstance you could ever have for the Tories.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,411
    LadyG said:

    Pulpstar said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    Theresa May was a catastrophically bad prime minister who nearly got beat by Jeremy bloody Corbyn. No one gives a tinker's feck what she thinks.

    Especially on the day when it is revealed that, alone amongst European leaders, she allowed herself to be humiliated and bullied by the appalling Trump. Merkel shrugged him off, despite the abuse.


    https://twitter.com/LovedayM/status/1277945412301848578?s=20

    That is a truly eye-watering piece of journalism, BTW. Definitely worth a read not just for the Theresa May bits. Tells you exactly how bad Trump has been for America, democracy and the West.

    ...and Johnson is our version. Populists are bad for any nations health. Trump has been terrible for the US reputation and Johnson is the same for ours. At least TMay had a certain dignity. Johnson is a clown.
    TMay had no dignity at all. She was mortifying to watch, she was an endless embarrassment in office, she was supposedly strong yet she allowed herself to be pushed around, isolated, spurned, scorned. She achieved nothing and did it with zero style. She was anti-charisma. And God she was boring.

    It is all summed up in that one indisputable fact: she went for an election when she was about 400 percent ahead in the polls, and she ended up losing her majority to..... Jeremy bloody Corbyn. FFS.
    Always tried to put the country first though.
    Did she? All she had to do was deliver Brexit, which she failed to do because she has zero leadership and political skills, she also has zero cunning and a negative amount of campaigning ability, hence her screwing up the election.

    If she really wanted to put the country first she would NEVER have made that calamitous conference speech ("citizens of nowhere") after the Referendum, which pointlessly offended everyone in Europe, made Britain look pinched and mean, alienated all moderate Remainers, and immediately laid down hugely damaging red lines, which boxed Britain in to a massively difficult Brexit.

    Up to that point there was loads of room for flexibility, maybe EEA for a while, maybe something Swiss, but then the Stupid TMay put Britain last and her career first by f*cking it all up. I hate to be ungallant but she's a cretinous halfwit.

    The only time she put Britain first is when she resigned as PM.
    Could she have got EEA past her party? Maybe on Day 1, as the sort coup de main that Blair or Cameron (though not Maggie) specialised in. Even then it would have been dicey. It might have got through Parliament, but needing lots of opposition votes. Look at Michael Gove. He didn't fight the referendum to get EEA membership.
    I'd have expected a plie of letters on the doormat of the 1922 Committee before you could say "Farage".
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,210

    LadyG said:

    It's far too early to judge Johnson. On the plus side, he's obviously better at elections than anyone since Blair. ...

    One election. Against Corbyn. On a false prospectus.

    We can be pretty damned sure that it won't go so well next time.
    Well, one election as PM. Plus 2 elections as Mayor and a masterful election campaign to capture the leadership of the Conservative party despite huge hostility by the incumbent and her placemen. Boris frames the argument to his advantage. Corbyn and getting Brexit done were 2019 but it is a mistake to think him a one trick pony.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,610
    Looking at Gove's assertion that the NSA isn't automatically a security "expert" Frost's predecessors as NSA are:

    Peter Ricketts: 2010-2012 Prior to his appointment as National Security Adviser, Ricketts had been the Permanent Secretary in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Before he took over that position in July 2006, he served as the Permanent Representative to NATO in Brussels. He was also previously the Chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee.

    Kim Darroch: (2012-15) In 2004, he transferred to 10 Downing Street, as Head of the Cabinet Office European Secretariat, where he served as the Prime Minister's principal advisor on European affairs. After three years, Darroch was appointed to replace John Grant in Brussels, as British Permanent Representative to the European Union in 2007 for a four-year term. On 24 June 2011, it was announced that Darroch would replace Peter Ricketts as National Security Advisor in January 2012

    Mark Lyall Grant (2015-17) Lyall Grant was British Permanent Representative to the United Nations (UN) from 2009 to 2015. He held the office of President of the United Nations Security Council four times: in November 2010, March 2012, June 2013, and August 2014.

    Mark Sedwill (2017-2020) In April 2009, Sedwill became the Ambassador to Afghanistan, In January 2010, he was additionally appointed as NATO's Senior Civilian Representative in Afghanistan, to be the civilian counterpart to the ISAF Commander, U.S. General Stanley A. McChrystal and then U.S. General David Petraeus. In May 2011, Sedwill took over as the FCO's Director-General for Afghanistan and Pakistan (and thus as the UK's Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan). In February 2013, Sedwill became the Permanent Secretary at the Home Office.

    David Frost: From May 2006 until October 2008, Frost was the British Ambassador to Denmark then Director for Strategy and Policy Planning in the Foreign Office from October 2008 to October 2010, before being seconded to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills where he served three years as Director for Europe, Trade, and International Affairs, Britain's most senior trade policy official. Frost left HM Diplomatic Service in 2013 to become CEO of the Scotch Whisky Association. Following the appointment of Boris Johnson as Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, Frost was taken on as HM Foreign Secretary's special adviser in November 2016, serving until Johnson left post in July 2018.

    So we've had, 1) Permanent Representative to NATO and Chair of JIC, 2) Permanent Representative to the EU, 3) Permanent Representative to the UN and four times chair of the Security Council, 4) NATO Senior Civilian in Afghanistan and Home Office Permanent Secretary and 5) Johnson Special Advisor and Brexit negotiator.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,882
    DavidL said:

    it is a mistake to think him a one trick pony.

    It really isn't.

    Once you peek behind the curtain, there's nothing there...
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Foxy said:

    CatMan said:

    Interesting that a lot of people are talking about May's time as PM and not at what she actually said today.

    Yes, I didn't have any time for her, but her point today is valid.

    It seems to spread Mr Frost a bit thin to have him in charge of both Brexit negotiations and this new brief.
    It's raving bonkers. Even in the event that the outlines of a deal are agreed by September, there is going to be a mountain of detail to pin down.

    Still, it's amusing seeing the contortions some people are going through to justify their religious faith in Boris. Some people even seem to be going so far as to try to claim he's a decent PM.
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    LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    coach said:

    coach said:

    coach said:

    DavidL said:

    I think most former PMs have recognised their place and given space to their successors.

    That the worst PM since Lord North hasn't perhaps shouldn't be a shock.

    The worst PM since Lord North, and possibly well before is currently in office. TMay was bad, but she was a consummate professional compared to Johnson. She had some leadership ability, he has none.
    She absolutely didn't. That was the problem. Her idea of leadership was to say nothing for a very long time and then announce things with no consultation, no consensus building, no allies and ultimately pretty much no followers.

    I still think the deal that she did with the EU was a good compromise, better than Boris's in some respect. But her leadership skills were such she could not deliver it. Selling ice cold water in the Sahara on a sunny day would be beyond that woman, it really would. She was awful. I hesitate to say worse than Brown (at least she did make her mind up eventually) but right up there with worst PMs of the last 100 years or so.
    I have been evaluating leadership skills for two decades. I can assure you that while she scores lower than you would want for an executive leader, she scores higher than Boris Johnson, by a long way. He is utterly hopeless, only those with no understanding of leadership ability would think otherwise.
    Out of interest, who do you consider to be good leaders?
    I have one minute, before work! If you are referring to PMs it is quite obvious (tho all have flaws):Thatcher, Blair, Churchill. To some extent Wilson. Also, despite the disasters that beset him, Major was a very good leader, though undermined by intellectual lightweights in his own party like IDS. Cameron also had strong leadership ability. Johnson is a joke when measured against any of these. Even he knows it.
    I think its too early to judge Boris tbh, he's come into an unprecedented situation.

    Incidentally I didn't vote for him but I wouldn't be jumping to any conclusions about his leadership until or unless he steers us out of the financial mess that's about to hit us.
    I hope you're sitting comfortably; you've a LONG wait ahead.
    On that we agree, I read somewhere that a statement is due on the economy.

    It reminds me of when I'm racing and backing a 33/1 shot in the last to try and recoup my losses. Even on a site that you'd think was quite savvy most people are oblivious to the state we're in.
    I'm not. I am terrified. And I think there is a reasonable chance it is all going to get even worse.

    Look at Australia now going into a partial new lockdown, in Victoria

    https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1277859458564198401?s=20

    This is bad. Even countries that had apparently defeated it are suffering. If we don't get a vaccine or brilliant treatments this could cripple the global economy for years.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DavidL said:

    £5bn in the current climate is chicken feed. And I’m no big state spender.

    I assume there’s more to come as if Boris and Sunak really want to pump-prime the British economy we’re talking of the need for a sustained £100-250bn of infrastructure spending over 2-3 years. Not this.

    I agree. What I don't understand is why this speech was given the big build up or the New Deal comparators when there is so little in it. If there is no money left or the smoke has yet to clear sufficiently to decide where best to spend it (a perfectly legitimate position) then just don't make the speech. If it is thought a good idea to rally the troops etc skip the big build up (and the build, build, build logo, even if it does take the piss out of Nicola).
    I think it's not about what was said at all but the way it was said.

    It signalling to the public and business there won't be a return to austerity, the government will spend what it needs, isn't looking to balance the books quickly, isn't looking to raise taxes.

    To basically give the public and business confidence to spend and resume market activity.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Don't think it's much use comparing May with Johnson. The choice currently is Johnson or Starmer.

    On the vast majority of counts, Starmer's better.

    However, his kneeling before a mob and his yet to be fleshed out plans to carve England into pieces sit not at all well with me.

    Fear not MD, a new Conservative English National party may be about to come into being.

    https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1277954288367677441?s=20
    I'm not alone!
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