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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Johnson’s big gamble – setting a time table for the lockdown r

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:


    Agreed, and I’ve been doing my best... :smile:
    But when most people don’t wear masks - definitely the case when I shopped last - peer pressure works in the other direction.

    This is the kind of case where the government just needs to stamp its feet a bit, and it should gradually be shifting from regulating individuals to regulating businesses. If supermarkets aren't enforcing wearing masks, just make it the law that they have to. Once (nearly) everyone is wearing them that should become the new social norm, and you should no longer need much enforcement.
    The problem is how that then gets interpreted and enforced. Eg the government have required masks on public transport, with exceptions for the very young and those with breathing difficulty (which seems counterintuitive). My wife takes the bus to work and she said that a lady boarded the bus and apologised to the driver saying she hasn't got a mask and the driver said not to worry - he'd been given a warning by his employer following a complaint after he'd asked a passenger to put on a mask so now he wasn't going to anymore. 🤦‍♂️ If you give in to every squeaky wheel then nothing gets done.

    Major cultural changes are possible, take smoking indoors for example. That is now totally taboo. But it requires consistency and public buy in into it.
    Mask wearing is temporary though so it cannot be compared to smoking indoors.

    I know there’s some who are obsessed with the idea that we in the West should follow the East in wearing them more regularly but realistically that isn’t going to happen, and neither in my opinion should it.
    I wore a mask for the first time in Tesco's on Sunday. I was in a minority although not alone. I felt fairly ridiculous to be honest, especially as the mask meant my glasses frequently fogged up. I am not sure I am going to repeat the experiment but I would feel differently on public transport such as a train.
    I won't go into a shop or store without one, as I think it irresponsible to behave otherwise.
    The individual risks for a shopping trip are very low, but the overall effect of everyone wearing them in enclosed, fairly crowded spaces would be considerable.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Just saw this. Will the German public scream for Angela Merkel's head, and will their Peers Morgenz be barracking government ministers like a fishwife?

    Or will they handle it calmly and accept that shit happens? Answers on a postcard...
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    edited June 2020
    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I've been wearing an N95 respirator every trip to the shops. Gives an amazing feeling of superiority knowing your mask is one of those 'unless it's medical grade' exceptions which gives you a bit more protection than the average mask.

    Also looks a bit easier to breathe in compared to the standard surgical or cloth masks.
    20% feeling smug, 80% safety for me.
    My other half can't abide them - she's off to the shops just this moment ! The one way system in the shops sends her loopy. So if I get it it'll probably be from her :D

    Respirator and valved ffp3 masks protect the wearer (if fit tested correctly) but not other people, unlike unvalved ffp3 or regular surgical masks. The valves make breathing more comfortable precisely because there is no resistance to exhalation.
    I'm using regular surgical masks and keeping my N95s for when it gets really bad, as in 1665 London bad.

    What's the mask advice if I want to protect both myself and other people to a high degree and haven't got access to a biowarfare suit with oxygen tank?

    @Pulpstar - I bet you don't look as cool as Putin:

    image
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    edited June 2020

    I have heard it argued that technology has removed (or potentially removed) most of the impediments associated with multiple currencies.

    And that countries would be better off with *more* specific currencies.

    Well, there is always blockchain....

    :D:D
    Not sure that Git with hype is really much of a solution - except what-to-do-next for scammers.

    The point is that, in the modern cashless society, with low cost exchange built in, things are very different.

    On the personal level, Revolut has massively changed travel. Many times now I have spent time in a country without using local physical currency.

    For businesses, exchange rates are more of an issue. But even there, the banking system makes thing much smoother than even a decade ago.

    The question is - whether society, as a whole, would see costs or benefits in having currencies tailored to local conditions.
    Suppose your proposal were accepted. Would you volunteer to have your salary paid in the currency of your local county?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    And specifically within the Guetersloh county of North Rhine-Westphalia. It will be interesting to see how the people react to this.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I've been wearing an N95 respirator every trip to the shops. Gives an amazing feeling of superiority knowing your mask is one of those 'unless it's medical grade' exceptions which gives you a bit more protection than the average mask.

    Also looks a bit easier to breathe in compared to the standard surgical or cloth masks.
    20% feeling smug, 80% safety for me.
    My other half can't abide them - she's off to the shops just this moment ! The one way system in the shops sends her loopy. So if I get it it'll probably be from her :D

    Respirator and valved ffp3 masks protect the wearer (if fit tested correctly) but not other people, unlike unvalved ffp3 or regular surgical masks. The valves make breathing more comfortable precisely because there is no resistance to exhalation.
    I nicked my Mk.4B bone dome (among other things) when I left the RN. I might use that with O2 mask attached for queuing at the Post Office.


  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298

    rkrkrk said:

    US looks to be starting off on second wave. UK cases look to be flatlining rather than falling all that much, but maybe it's just that we are testing more. Second wave definitely looks to be a major risk, and our contact tracing system is still nascent.

    The USA is still on its first wave.

    The UK is 99% down on its peak.
    99% down doesn't seem right. In terms of a 7 day moving average, we peaked around 5.5k cases, and now we are at 1.2k.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    US looks to be starting off on second wave. UK cases look to be flatlining rather than falling all that much, but maybe it's just that we are testing more. Second wave definitely looks to be a major risk, and our contact tracing system is still nascent.

    The USA is still on its first wave.

    The UK is 99% down on its peak.
    99% down doesn't seem right. In terms of a 7 day moving average, we peaked around 5.5k cases, and now we are at 1.2k.
    That 5.5k cases was with 10k tests per day. The true number of daily infections was probably 10-15x higher than that. At least that's what the daily deaths figure tell us.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    I have heard it argued that technology has removed (or potentially removed) most of the impediments associated with multiple currencies.

    And that countries would be better off with *more* specific currencies.

    Well, there is always blockchain....

    :D:D
    Not sure that Git with hype is really much of a solution - except what-to-do-next for scammers.

    The point is that, in the modern cashless society, with low cost exchange built in, things are very different.

    On the personal level, Revolut has massively changed travel. Many times now I have spent time in a country without using local physical currency.

    For businesses, exchange rates are more of an issue. But even there, the banking system makes thing much smoother than even a decade ago.

    The question is - whether society, as a whole, would see costs or benefits in having currencies tailored to local conditions.
    With most currencies, the issue has always been "what backs the currency to give it stability"?

    It is interesting reading about your personal experiences with them and I am glad that they were positive :+1:
  • The lockdown has been announced for the Kreis (district of) Gütersloh. 1500 new cases in recent weeks, in a population of 350k. Mass testing of the wider population has been announced. Severity of lockdown measures in detail not clear, so far.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    June is going to be another month with a £50bn+ deficit. Anyone who claims that we are coming out of the lockdown too soon is just completely ignoring the economic realities of the situation. The government cannot continue to pay its 5m employees and another 8m furloughed without income coming in.
    It is of course highly regrettable that after 3 months of this we have still not got much of a trace and test system in place. I am not sure that there is anything inevitable about a second wave but such a system would have reduced the risk. In my experience people take social distancing at least as seriously as they should, arguably much more so given the relatively modest number of cases in the community right now but the lockdown has collapsed around the edges with families and friends once again visiting each other relatively freely and kids meeting up with their pals as a matter of routine.
    Scotland is in serious danger of being left behind in all this with an overly cautious and maternalistic government being much more equivocal about normal life starting again. This will cost hundreds of Scottish businesses and thousands of Scottish jobs. Ironically, the additional weakening of the Scottish economy and the inevitably greater reliance upon English subsidy just might save the Union.

    You are dreaming David, the shambles from Tories has already cost many Scottish lives , we should not allow their greed to cause more. The sooner we are free of these criminals and shysters the better. Given the state they have made of Scotland we can do no worse on our own , trying to pretend we are subsidised is pathetic.
    The key to independence is a viable economy but a bureaucratic, public service dominated Scottish government has never seen that, being much more focused on "freebies" than the economic results. Our University sector is facing devastation as a result of such policies but it is not alone. The Highlands will be economically destroyed by Nicola's reluctance to follow suite and we will sadly have a legacy of semi-derelict hotels, cafes and shops for a long time to come.
    In my own line of work the Scottish Courts system is already at least 8 weeks behind England in terms of opening up again and announcement after announcement by Scottish Courts is followed by really pitiful amounts of action on the ground and the odd token hearing with no jury trials until next month at the earliest and then only 2 set down.
    I'm afraid that you are the one that is dreaming Malcolm if you think such caution and hesitancy comes without a price.
    The irony is that to be a viable independent nation Scotland really needs to be led by a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy.

    But unless Scotland goes independent they're never going to get that.

    It's a Catch 22 dilemma.
    I once knew a Welsh nationalist who desperately wanted independence because he thought the only way to remove the sclerotic and desperately corrupt Welsh public sector was an economic collapse followed by a total rebuild from first principles.

    He thought independence was the best and possibly only way to achieve that.
    He'd get the economic collapse bit.

    He wouldn't get the total rebuild from first principles.
    Why not?

    Without the Welsh getting fiscal transfers from England anymore they'd have no choice but to rebuild the economy.
    The economy would stabilise at a level that would be smaller, with greatly reduced spending on public services and a drop in living standards.

    I'm not sure that what he's after.
    Do you think it’s impossible for Wales’s GDP per capita to match Ireland’s?
    Nothing is impossible. However, I'd note it took Ireland over 60 years to get there as it switched from an agricultural-led to a services-led economy, with its commensurate boosts through construction. And it's worth nothing Ireland still had a nasty experience in the financial crisis when that turned sour.

    Key would be attracting inward business investment. Ireland has succeeded in part because it's attracted lots of US multinationals. But it does have a profile advantage there that Wales does not.
    To be fair, the Great Depression hit within 10 years of Independence, followed a few years later by a World War and a time when the rest of Europe was having to rebuild.
    TBH, I don't think the attitudes and policies of the Catholic Church and de Valera helped, either
    And there will certainly be "events" that would affect a future independent Wales as well.

    Its communications north and south are poor - it is far more linked into England east & west - so if it wanted to develop a new independent economic model based on autonomy it would have a hard time of it for a protracted period.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604
    Irish government being sensible again.

    "The "ah sure, I'll be grand" mentality of Irish people with a cough or cold will have to become a thing of the past, according to the Irish Chief Medical Officer.

    Dr Tony Holohan says people will be advised not to go to work or out and about with minor coughs or colds in the future to try and stop spreading the virus.

    Speaking at the Department of Health daily briefing, Dr Holohan said: "It's not maybe a uniquely Irish thing but the 'ah sure I'll be grand' and going to work with coughs and colds, that was a kind of socially acceptable thing to do.

    "We need to move to a situation where going to school, going out for the evening, going to work, with coughs and colds and sniffles and so on becomes a thing of the past. This will benefit a range of other respiratory diseases as well."


    I hope this becomes part of the new normal. This behavourial change by itself could make a big difference.
  • Just saw this. Will the German public scream for Angela Merkel's head, and will their Peers Morgenz be barracking government ministers like a fishwife?

    Or will they handle it calmly and accept that shit happens? Answers on a postcard...
    Some people are calling for the head of Armin Laschet, minister president of Nordrhein-Westfalen, noted "unlockdown advocate". Merkel has always advocated for erring on the side of caution. Politically this is strengthening her position.
    Public response is largely favourable for her.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Cyclefree said:

    The names and addresses for pubs should be a laugh. I am often away from my address for prolonged periods and it often takes a while before letters and mail catch up with me.

    At the same time, I usually use an email for signing up for stuff or services that demand an email and I only check that mailbox periodically. If they demand an email that is the one they will get because I am not handing my usual email out to a pub chain on the door so they can either lose the list or give it to spammers or use it for their own campaigns.

    I presume that they will all be made aware of their legal responsibilities regarding data protection, personal data and GDPR?

    Those with lawyers for mothers will. 🙂

    This may be easier for pubs with regular clients: Daughter knows pretty much everyone who comes in and while it will be a pain having to write down everyone’s names and a contact number so be it.

    Any app cannot be made compulsory because the internet is simply not strong enough here to allow everyone to use it - whether for ordering drinks or anything else.

    Only those pubs which have already been preparing will be ready to open on the 4th. Not every pub around here will be doing so. Daughter is. She is going to give it until no later than September to see if she can make it but is going to give it her best shot.

    She’s got the PPE for staff. Incidentally she said that wearing masks for hours in a hot kitchen is a nightmare.
    Hand sanitizers at entrances / exits / loos.
    Screen at the bar.
    Tables 2 metres apart outside and the boules playing area used for tables.
    Village hall and local firm are lending/building her a temporary gazebo so that she can have more covered tables.
    Outside heaters.
    Alcohol off licence for those wanting to drink on the green.
    Lots of lovely new hanging baskets and colourful flowers (courtesy of Mum and provided the marauding lambs don’t eat them first).
    Everything is being cleaned to within an inch of its life.

    Just pray that Boris does not come up with some daft rules and for good weather for the next 3 months!
    I wish her all the best. Running such a business isn't easy at the best of times; yes, there are rewards, but they're earned.

    Looking forward to going and buying a pint for myself before too long. We've got a supply of masks and we're thinking about carrying a small bottle of hand sanitiser, just in case.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    It's actually only in one district afaik, so the headline and article are quite misleading as they give the impression it is the whole of NRW.

    Having said that, I am worried that Germany has lost it a bit in the last couple of weeks. I think Merkel should come out of hiding again and tell everyone to keep on distancing.

    I'm also wondering why Germany has removed all travel restrictions for all of the EU plus the UK and Schengen. It seems a bit premature to me. Denmark, for example, has only opened its borders to tourists resident in Germany, Norway and Iceland, and only for tourists who have accommodation booked for at least 6 days.

    I'm generally in favour of opening the schools and kindergartens - they don't seem to be the biggest source of transmission, and businesses opening up as much as possible, but I think we should be a bit more cautious.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    June is going to be another month with a £50bn+ deficit. Anyone who claims that we are coming out of the lockdown too soon is just completely ignoring the economic realities of the situation. The government cannot continue to pay its 5m employees and another 8m furloughed without income coming in.
    It is of course highly regrettable that after 3 months of this we have still not got much of a trace and test system in place. I am not sure that there is anything inevitable about a second wave but such a system would have reduced the risk. In my experience people take social distancing at least as seriously as they should, arguably much more so given the relatively modest number of cases in the community right now but the lockdown has collapsed around the edges with families and friends once again visiting each other relatively freely and kids meeting up with their pals as a matter of routine.
    Scotland is in serious danger of being left behind in all this with an overly cautious and maternalistic government being much more equivocal about normal life starting again. This will cost hundreds of Scottish businesses and thousands of Scottish jobs. Ironically, the additional weakening of the Scottish economy and the inevitably greater reliance upon English subsidy just might save the Union.

    You are dreaming David, the shambles from Tories has already cost many Scottish lives , we should not allow their greed to cause more. The sooner we are free of these criminals and shysters the better. Given the state they have made of Scotland we can do no worse on our own , trying to pretend we are subsidised is pathetic.
    The key to independence is a viable economy but a bureaucratic, public service dominated Scottish government has never seen that, being much more focused on "freebies" than the economic results. Our University sector is facing devastation as a result of such policies but it is not alone. The Highlands will be economically destroyed by Nicola's reluctance to follow suite and we will sadly have a legacy of semi-derelict hotels, cafes and shops for a long time to come.
    In my own line of work the Scottish Courts system is already at least 8 weeks behind England in terms of opening up again and announcement after announcement by Scottish Courts is followed by really pitiful amounts of action on the ground and the odd token hearing with no jury trials until next month at the earliest and then only 2 set down.
    I'm afraid that you are the one that is dreaming Malcolm if you think such caution and hesitancy comes without a price.
    The irony is that to be a viable independent nation Scotland really needs to be led by a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy.

    But unless Scotland goes independent they're never going to get that.

    It's a Catch 22 dilemma.
    I once knew a Welsh nationalist who desperately wanted independence because he thought the only way to remove the sclerotic and desperately corrupt Welsh public sector was an economic collapse followed by a total rebuild from first principles.

    He thought independence was the best and possibly only way to achieve that.
    He'd get the economic collapse bit.

    He wouldn't get the total rebuild from first principles.
    Why not?

    Without the Welsh getting fiscal transfers from England anymore they'd have no choice but to rebuild the economy.
    It sounds like you should be a fan of the way the Eurozone is structured.

    Not a bit.

    Countries should have control of their own monetary policy. I am saying that the Welsh would be better off controling their own nation and responsible for themselves so how the fudge do you think that means I think that dozens of nations should abdicate responsibility for a critical part of their own nation?

    I'd sooner support a Welsh currency than a pan European one.
    What about a British one with full fiscal autonomy for each nation and a central government with a much smaller budget?

    Britain will always be too dominated by England. Either the UK is one nation or it is not - and if it is not then a 3 or 4 nations within 1 model doesn't work.

    The UK is as if the EU were made of just France, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg and that was it. In such a scenario the Benelux nations would be totally outnumbered by France. Fine if they view themselves as a province of the larger union, not fine if they're meant to be equal nations.
  • In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    Panic? Not really. People are mildly annoyed at Laschet for his "unlockdown" ramping, and strongly annoyed at Clemens Tönnies, owner of the abattoir. He is also CoB of Schalke 04. Everbody hates him, Schalke fans already hated him for his many failures, everyone else hated him because they hate Schalke.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    tlg86 said:

    And specifically within the Guetersloh county of North Rhine-Westphalia. It will be interesting to see how the people react to this.
    People are really pissed off with the billionaire owner of the meat factory, so far as I can tell.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604
    Cyclefree said:

    The names and addresses for pubs should be a laugh. I am often away from my address for prolonged periods and it often takes a while before letters and mail catch up with me.

    At the same time, I usually use an email for signing up for stuff or services that demand an email and I only check that mailbox periodically. If they demand an email that is the one they will get because I am not handing my usual email out to a pub chain on the door so they can either lose the list or give it to spammers or use it for their own campaigns.

    I presume that they will all be made aware of their legal responsibilities regarding data protection, personal data and GDPR?

    Those with lawyers for mothers will. 🙂

    This may be easier for pubs with regular clients: Daughter knows pretty much everyone who comes in and while it will be a pain having to write down everyone’s names and a contact number so be it.

    Any app cannot be made compulsory because the internet is simply not strong enough here to allow everyone to use it - whether for ordering drinks or anything else.

    Only those pubs which have already been preparing will be ready to open on the 4th. Not every pub around here will be doing so. Daughter is. She is going to give it until no later than September to see if she can make it but is going to give it her best shot.

    She’s got the PPE for staff. Incidentally she said that wearing masks for hours in a hot kitchen is a nightmare.
    Hand sanitizers at entrances / exits / loos.
    Screen at the bar.
    Tables 2 metres apart outside and the boules playing area used for tables.
    Village hall and local firm are lending/building her a temporary gazebo so that she can have more covered tables.
    Outside heaters.
    Alcohol off licence for those wanting to drink on the green.
    Lots of lovely new hanging baskets and colourful flowers (courtesy of Mum and provided the marauding lambs don’t eat them first).
    Everything is being cleaned to within an inch of its life.

    Just pray that Boris does not come up with some daft rules and for good weather for the next 3 months!
    Very best wishes and good luck to your daughter. It sounds as if she deserves it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    I have heard it argued that technology has removed (or potentially removed) most of the impediments associated with multiple currencies.

    And that countries would be better off with *more* specific currencies.

    Well, there is always blockchain....

    :D:D
    Not sure that Git with hype is really much of a solution - except what-to-do-next for scammers.

    The point is that, in the modern cashless society, with low cost exchange built in, things are very different.

    On the personal level, Revolut has massively changed travel. Many times now I have spent time in a country without using local physical currency.

    For businesses, exchange rates are more of an issue. But even there, the banking system makes thing much smoother than even a decade ago.

    The question is - whether society, as a whole, would see costs or benefits in having currencies tailored to local conditions.
    Suppose your proposal were accepted. Would you volunteer to have your salary paid in the currency of your local county?
    Depends on the country and the behaviour of the government, of course
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    I have heard it argued that technology has removed (or potentially removed) most of the impediments associated with multiple currencies.

    And that countries would be better off with *more* specific currencies.

    Well, there is always blockchain....

    :D:D
    Not sure that Git with hype is really much of a solution - except what-to-do-next for scammers.

    The point is that, in the modern cashless society, with low cost exchange built in, things are very different.

    On the personal level, Revolut has massively changed travel. Many times now I have spent time in a country without using local physical currency.

    For businesses, exchange rates are more of an issue. But even there, the banking system makes thing much smoother than even a decade ago.

    The question is - whether society, as a whole, would see costs or benefits in having currencies tailored to local conditions.
    Suppose your proposal were accepted. Would you volunteer to have your salary paid in the currency of your local county?
    Depends on the country and the behaviour of the government, of course
    I said county. I thought you were proposing sub-national currencies?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    June is going to be another month with a £50bn+ deficit. Anyone who claims that we are coming out of the lockdown too soon is just completely ignoring the economic realities of the situation. The government cannot continue to pay its 5m employees and another 8m furloughed without income coming in.
    It is of course highly regrettable that after 3 months of this we have still not got much of a trace and test system in place. I am not sure that there is anything inevitable about a second wave but such a system would have reduced the risk. In my experience people take social distancing at least as seriously as they should, arguably much more so given the relatively modest number of cases in the community right now but the lockdown has collapsed around the edges with families and friends once again visiting each other relatively freely and kids meeting up with their pals as a matter of routine.
    Scotland is in serious danger of being left behind in all this with an overly cautious and maternalistic government being much more equivocal about normal life starting again. This will cost hundreds of Scottish businesses and thousands of Scottish jobs. Ironically, the additional weakening of the Scottish economy and the inevitably greater reliance upon English subsidy just might save the Union.

    You are dreaming David, the shambles from Tories has already cost many Scottish lives , we should not allow their greed to cause more. The sooner we are free of these criminals and shysters the better. Given the state they have made of Scotland we can do no worse on our own , trying to pretend we are subsidised is pathetic.
    The key to independence is a viable economy but a bureaucratic, public service dominated Scottish government has never seen that, being much more focused on "freebies" than the economic results. Our University sector is facing devastation as a result of such policies but it is not alone. The Highlands will be economically destroyed by Nicola's reluctance to follow suite and we will sadly have a legacy of semi-derelict hotels, cafes and shops for a long time to come.
    In my own line of work the Scottish Courts system is already at least 8 weeks behind England in terms of opening up again and announcement after announcement by Scottish Courts is followed by really pitiful amounts of action on the ground and the odd token hearing with no jury trials until next month at the earliest and then only 2 set down.
    I'm afraid that you are the one that is dreaming Malcolm if you think such caution and hesitancy comes without a price.
    The irony is that to be a viable independent nation Scotland really needs to be led by a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy.

    But unless Scotland goes independent they're never going to get that.

    It's a Catch 22 dilemma.
    I once knew a Welsh nationalist who desperately wanted independence because he thought the only way to remove the sclerotic and desperately corrupt Welsh public sector was an economic collapse followed by a total rebuild from first principles.

    He thought independence was the best and possibly only way to achieve that.
    He'd get the economic collapse bit.

    He wouldn't get the total rebuild from first principles.
    Why not?

    Without the Welsh getting fiscal transfers from England anymore they'd have no choice but to rebuild the economy.
    The economy would stabilise at a level that would be smaller, with greatly reduced spending on public services and a drop in living standards.

    I'm not sure that what he's after.
    Do you think it’s impossible for Wales’s GDP per capita to match Ireland’s?
    Nothing is impossible. However, I'd note it took Ireland over 60 years to get there as it switched from an agricultural-led to a services-led economy, with its commensurate boosts through construction. And it's worth nothing Ireland still had a nasty experience in the financial crisis when that turned sour.

    Key would be attracting inward business investment. Ireland has succeeded in part because it's attracted lots of US multinationals. But it does have a profile advantage there that Wales does not.
    To be fair, the Great Depression hit within 10 years of Independence, followed a few years later by a World War and a time when the rest of Europe was having to rebuild.
    TBH, I don't think the attitudes and policies of the Catholic Church and de Valera helped, either
    And there will certainly be "events" that would affect a future independent Wales as well.

    Its communications north and south are poor - it is far more linked into England east & west - so if it wanted to develop a new independent economic model based on autonomy it would have a hard time of it for a protracted period.
    I wouldn't describe N-S communications as 'poor'; that's too generous! Topography doesn't help, of course.
    There's another, historic reason of course; Wales never was really united, in the sense that Ireland was, under the High Kings. We talk about the 'Prince' of Wales but very few, if any, actually ruled over the whole of what we now call Wales. Glyndwr did of course, but I suspect language is the main unifying factor.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    Next US president (projected EC votes as result of election), midprices:
    Biden 1.745
    Trump 2.67

    Republican candidate (as result of convention), last matched prices:
    Trump 1.07
    Pence 30
    Haley 70
    Romney 170
    Ryan 490
    Kasich 590
    D Johnson 700
    C Rice 710
    Sasse 800
    Owens 810
    Cruz 850

    Trump today will address "Students for Trump" at a church in Phoenix, Arizona. Organisers say they expect 3000, whom they will ask but not require to wear masks.

    They don't get it, do they? If they did, they'd choose from the following options:

    * make masks compulsory
    * don't hold such events
    * "double down" on "We're not pussies. We don't need no stinking masks! Infection figures are fake news!" and hope the (surviving) wrestling fan vote overwhelms the rest of the population in four and a half months' time.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Cyclefree said:

    The names and addresses for pubs should be a laugh. I am often away from my address for prolonged periods and it often takes a while before letters and mail catch up with me.

    At the same time, I usually use an email for signing up for stuff or services that demand an email and I only check that mailbox periodically. If they demand an email that is the one they will get because I am not handing my usual email out to a pub chain on the door so they can either lose the list or give it to spammers or use it for their own campaigns.

    I presume that they will all be made aware of their legal responsibilities regarding data protection, personal data and GDPR?

    Those with lawyers for mothers will. 🙂

    This may be easier for pubs with regular clients: Daughter knows pretty much everyone who comes in and while it will be a pain having to write down everyone’s names and a contact number so be it.

    Any app cannot be made compulsory because the internet is simply not strong enough here to allow everyone to use it - whether for ordering drinks or anything else.

    Only those pubs which have already been preparing will be ready to open on the 4th. Not every pub around here will be doing so. Daughter is. She is going to give it until no later than September to see if she can make it but is going to give it her best shot.

    She’s got the PPE for staff. Incidentally she said that wearing masks for hours in a hot kitchen is a nightmare.
    Hand sanitizers at entrances / exits / loos.
    Screen at the bar.
    Tables 2 metres apart outside and the boules playing area used for tables.
    Village hall and local firm are lending/building her a temporary gazebo so that she can have more covered tables.
    Outside heaters.
    Alcohol off licence for those wanting to drink on the green.
    Lots of lovely new hanging baskets and colourful flowers (courtesy of Mum and provided the marauding lambs don’t eat them first).
    Everything is being cleaned to within an inch of its life.

    Just pray that Boris does not come up with some daft rules and for good weather for the next 3 months!
    On the PPE in kitchens - this kind of thing was why I was asking Foxy about the usage of non-disposable masks with a belt air-pump.

    People use them in welding - the forced air means that they, effectively, have built in air-conditioning.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    Barnesian said:

    Irish government being sensible again.

    "The "ah sure, I'll be grand" mentality of Irish people with a cough or cold will have to become a thing of the past, according to the Irish Chief Medical Officer.

    Dr Tony Holohan says people will be advised not to go to work or out and about with minor coughs or colds in the future to try and stop spreading the virus.

    Speaking at the Department of Health daily briefing, Dr Holohan said: "It's not maybe a uniquely Irish thing but the 'ah sure I'll be grand' and going to work with coughs and colds, that was a kind of socially acceptable thing to do.

    "We need to move to a situation where going to school, going out for the evening, going to work, with coughs and colds and sniffles and so on becomes a thing of the past. This will benefit a range of other respiratory diseases as well."


    I hope this becomes part of the new normal. This behavourial change by itself could make a big difference.

    The new normal will be very much like the old normal of our grandparents who, living at a time of no antibiotics and vaccines, took hygiene a bit more seriously .
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    Panic? Not really. People are mildly annoyed at Laschet for his "unlockdown" ramping, and strongly annoyed at Clemens Tönnies, owner of the abattoir. He is also CoB of Schalke 04. Everbody hates him, Schalke fans already hated him for his many failures, everyone else hated him because they hate Schalke.
    And now I'm in the picture I think I will start hating him too.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    Just saw this. Will the German public scream for Angela Merkel's head, and will their Peers Morgenz be barracking government ministers like a fishwife?

    Or will they handle it calmly and accept that shit happens? Answers on a postcard...
    If the situation was reversed, and the UK had Germany's figures and Germany had bad figures like France and Spain and Italy, I can just imagine the endless breastbeating and invocations of the blitz spirit and WW2 and world_beating this or that. We'd never hear the end of it. There's been no crowing in Germany that I am aware of. It's a generally more mature public discourse - it would be hard to imagine someone who writes adolescent limericks about the president of Turkey having sex with goats becoming chancellor.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    I have heard it argued that technology has removed (or potentially removed) most of the impediments associated with multiple currencies.

    And that countries would be better off with *more* specific currencies.

    Well, there is always blockchain....

    :D:D
    Not sure that Git with hype is really much of a solution - except what-to-do-next for scammers.

    The point is that, in the modern cashless society, with low cost exchange built in, things are very different.

    On the personal level, Revolut has massively changed travel. Many times now I have spent time in a country without using local physical currency.

    For businesses, exchange rates are more of an issue. But even there, the banking system makes thing much smoother than even a decade ago.

    The question is - whether society, as a whole, would see costs or benefits in having currencies tailored to local conditions.
    Suppose your proposal were accepted. Would you volunteer to have your salary paid in the currency of your local county?
    Depends on the country and the behaviour of the government, of course
    I said county. I thought you were proposing sub-national currencies?
    Offered Kent currency; I can see that going down well in Lakeside!
  • kamski said:

    In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    It's actually only in one district afaik, so the headline and article are quite misleading as they give the impression it is the whole of NRW.

    Having said that, I am worried that Germany has lost it a bit in the last couple of weeks. I think Merkel should come out of hiding again and tell everyone to keep on distancing.

    I'm also wondering why Germany has removed all travel restrictions for all of the EU plus the UK and Schengen. It seems a bit premature to me. Denmark, for example, has only opened its borders to tourists resident in Germany, Norway and Iceland, and only for tourists who have accommodation booked for at least 6 days.

    I'm generally in favour of opening the schools and kindergartens - they don't seem to be the biggest source of transmission, and businesses opening up as much as possible, but I think we should be a bit more cautious.
    Merkel hasn't been in hiding, she's been quite visible publically, but occupied with overcoming the many obstacles to the recovery fund, mainly the objections from the "frugal four". The opening of the borders must be seen in pan-european context, many other countries were quicker and were calling for Germany, as the centerpiece and hub, to do the same. She chose the middle ground, as usual.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    June is going to be another month with a £50bn+ deficit. Anyone who claims that we are coming out of the lockdown too soon is just completely ignoring the economic realities of the situation. The government cannot continue to pay its 5m employees and another 8m furloughed without income coming in.
    It is of course highly regrettable that after 3 months of this we have still not got much of a trace and test system in place. I am not sure that there is anything inevitable about a second wave but such a system would have reduced the risk. In my experience people take social distancing at least as seriously as they should, arguably much more so given the relatively modest number of cases in the community right now but the lockdown has collapsed around the edges with families and friends once again visiting each other relatively freely and kids meeting up with their pals as a matter of routine.
    Scotland is in serious danger of being left behind in all this with an overly cautious and maternalistic government being much more equivocal about normal life starting again. This will cost hundreds of Scottish businesses and thousands of Scottish jobs. Ironically, the additional weakening of the Scottish economy and the inevitably greater reliance upon English subsidy just might save the Union.

    You are dreaming David, the shambles from Tories has already cost many Scottish lives , we should not allow their greed to cause more. The sooner we are free of these criminals and shysters the better. Given the state they have made of Scotland we can do no worse on our own , trying to pretend we are subsidised is pathetic.
    The key to independence is a viable economy but a bureaucratic, public service dominated Scottish government has never seen that, being much more focused on "freebies" than the economic results. Our University sector is facing devastation as a result of such policies but it is not alone. The Highlands will be economically destroyed by Nicola's reluctance to follow suite and we will sadly have a legacy of semi-derelict hotels, cafes and shops for a long time to come.
    In my own line of work the Scottish Courts system is already at least 8 weeks behind England in terms of opening up again and announcement after announcement by Scottish Courts is followed by really pitiful amounts of action on the ground and the odd token hearing with no jury trials until next month at the earliest and then only 2 set down.
    I'm afraid that you are the one that is dreaming Malcolm if you think such caution and hesitancy comes without a price.
    The irony is that to be a viable independent nation Scotland really needs to be led by a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy.

    But unless Scotland goes independent they're never going to get that.

    It's a Catch 22 dilemma.
    I once knew a Welsh nationalist who desperately wanted independence because he thought the only way to remove the sclerotic and desperately corrupt Welsh public sector was an economic collapse followed by a total rebuild from first principles.

    He thought independence was the best and possibly only way to achieve that.
    He'd get the economic collapse bit.

    He wouldn't get the total rebuild from first principles.
    Why not?

    Without the Welsh getting fiscal transfers from England anymore they'd have no choice but to rebuild the economy.
    The economy would stabilise at a level that would be smaller, with greatly reduced spending on public services and a drop in living standards.

    I'm not sure that what he's after.
    Do you think it’s impossible for Wales’s GDP per capita to match Ireland’s?
    Nothing is impossible. However, I'd note it took Ireland over 60 years to get there as it switched from an agricultural-led to a services-led economy, with its commensurate boosts through construction. And it's worth nothing Ireland still had a nasty experience in the financial crisis when that turned sour.

    Key would be attracting inward business investment. Ireland has succeeded in part because it's attracted lots of US multinationals. But it does have a profile advantage there that Wales does not.
    To be fair, the Great Depression hit within 10 years of Independence, followed a few years later by a World War and a time when the rest of Europe was having to rebuild.
    TBH, I don't think the attitudes and policies of the Catholic Church and de Valera helped, either
    And there will certainly be "events" that would affect a future independent Wales as well.

    Its communications north and south are poor - it is far more linked into England east & west - so if it wanted to develop a new independent economic model based on autonomy it would have a hard time of it for a protracted period.
    I wouldn't describe N-S communications as 'poor'; that's too generous! Topography doesn't help, of course.
    There's another, historic reason of course; Wales never was really united, in the sense that Ireland was, under the High Kings. We talk about the 'Prince' of Wales but very few, if any, actually ruled over the whole of what we now call Wales. Glyndwr did of course, but I suspect language is the main unifying factor.
    Language is more divisive than geography. The Welsh of Oswestry is very different from the Welsh of Cardigan.

    Only four rulers could realistically claim to have been direct lord of all Wales - Gruffudd ap Llewelyn (1055-63) Llewelyn ab Iorwerth (1195-1240) Llewelyn ap Gruffudd (1258-1277) and Owain ap Gruffudd (1402-1409).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    Panic? Not really. People are mildly annoyed at Laschet for his "unlockdown" ramping, and strongly annoyed at Clemens Tönnies, owner of the abattoir. He is also CoB of Schalke 04. Everbody hates him, Schalke fans already hated him for his many failures, everyone else hated him because they hate Schalke.
    I was being sarcastic about thing-happens-that-was-predicted-planned-for-and-is-probably-inevitable

    This kind of thing happening was about as predictable as taxation.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    I have heard it argued that technology has removed (or potentially removed) most of the impediments associated with multiple currencies.

    And that countries would be better off with *more* specific currencies.

    Well, there is always blockchain....

    :D:D
    Not sure that Git with hype is really much of a solution - except what-to-do-next for scammers.

    The point is that, in the modern cashless society, with low cost exchange built in, things are very different.

    On the personal level, Revolut has massively changed travel. Many times now I have spent time in a country without using local physical currency.

    For businesses, exchange rates are more of an issue. But even there, the banking system makes thing much smoother than even a decade ago.

    The question is - whether society, as a whole, would see costs or benefits in having currencies tailored to local conditions.
    Suppose your proposal were accepted. Would you volunteer to have your salary paid in the currency of your local county?
    Depends on the country and the behaviour of the government, of course
    I said county. I thought you were proposing sub-national currencies?
    Offered Kent currency; I can see that going down well in Lakeside!
    The question of *how local* such currencies should be is an interesting question. Again, it would require some actually study of the benefits/costs.

    The answer is partly political - how *far* can fiscal transfers be sent and be politically sustainable.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    June is going to be another month with a £50bn+ deficit. Anyone who claims that we are coming out of the lockdown too soon is just completely ignoring the economic realities of the situation. The government cannot continue to pay its 5m employees and another 8m furloughed without income coming in.
    It is of course highly regrettable that after 3 months of this we have still not got much of a trace and test system in place. I am not sure that there is anything inevitable about a second wave but such a system would have reduced the risk. In my experience people take social distancing at least as seriously as they should, arguably much more so given the relatively modest number of cases in the community right now but the lockdown has collapsed around the edges with families and friends once again visiting each other relatively freely and kids meeting up with their pals as a matter of routine.
    Scotland is in serious danger of being left behind in all this with an overly cautious and maternalistic government being much more equivocal about normal life starting again. This will cost hundreds of Scottish businesses and thousands of Scottish jobs. Ironically, the additional weakening of the Scottish economy and the inevitably greater reliance upon English subsidy just might save the Union.

    You are dreaming David, the shambles from Tories has already cost many Scottish lives , we should not allow their greed to cause more. The sooner we are free of these criminals and shysters the better. Given the state they have made of Scotland we can do no worse on our own , trying to pretend we are subsidised is pathetic.
    The key to independence is a viable economy but a bureaucratic, public service dominated Scottish government has never seen that, being much more focused on "freebies" than the economic results. Our University sector is facing devastation as a result of such policies but it is not alone. The Highlands will be economically destroyed by Nicola's reluctance to follow suite and we will sadly have a legacy of semi-derelict hotels, cafes and shops for a long time to come.
    In my own line of work the Scottish Courts system is already at least 8 weeks behind England in terms of opening up again and announcement after announcement by Scottish Courts is followed by really pitiful amounts of action on the ground and the odd token hearing with no jury trials until next month at the earliest and then only 2 set down.
    I'm afraid that you are the one that is dreaming Malcolm if you think such caution and hesitancy comes without a price.
    The irony is that to be a viable independent nation Scotland really needs to be led by a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy.

    But unless Scotland goes independent they're never going to get that.

    It's a Catch 22 dilemma.
    Scotland needs a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy. On the other hand, what Scotland does not need is a party like the Tories which spaffed North Sea Oil revenues up the wall to prop up its failed economic dogma.
    Indeed.

    The party that said “f*ck business” is hardly likely to persuade centre-right Scots that it would act in their best interest.

    The Tories act in the interests of Tories.
  • In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    Panic? Not really. People are mildly annoyed at Laschet for his "unlockdown" ramping, and strongly annoyed at Clemens Tönnies, owner of the abattoir. He is also CoB of Schalke 04. Everbody hates him, Schalke fans already hated him for his many failures, everyone else hated him because they hate Schalke.
    I was being sarcastic about thing-happens-that-was-predicted-planned-for-and-is-probably-inevitable

    This kind of thing happening was about as predictable as taxation.
    It was predictable and predicted. Countries that have some kind of grip on the disease will see limited outbreaks rather than one big second wave. It's of high importance to recognise these quickly and respond in fashion.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Cyclefree said:

    Barnesian said:

    Irish government being sensible again.

    "The "ah sure, I'll be grand" mentality of Irish people with a cough or cold will have to become a thing of the past, according to the Irish Chief Medical Officer.

    Dr Tony Holohan says people will be advised not to go to work or out and about with minor coughs or colds in the future to try and stop spreading the virus.

    Speaking at the Department of Health daily briefing, Dr Holohan said: "It's not maybe a uniquely Irish thing but the 'ah sure I'll be grand' and going to work with coughs and colds, that was a kind of socially acceptable thing to do.

    "We need to move to a situation where going to school, going out for the evening, going to work, with coughs and colds and sniffles and so on becomes a thing of the past. This will benefit a range of other respiratory diseases as well."


    I hope this becomes part of the new normal. This behavourial change by itself could make a big difference.

    The new normal will be very much like the old normal of our grandparents who, living at a time of no antibiotics and vaccines, took hygiene a bit more seriously .
    I was pondering last night what would have happened if Covid-19 had been the strain that caused the 1919 pandemic.

    I suspect it would have been very, very nasty.

    Not that the 1919 pandemic was exactly a picnic.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kamski said:

    In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    It's actually only in one district afaik, so the headline and article are quite misleading as they give the impression it is the whole of NRW.

    Having said that, I am worried that Germany has lost it a bit in the last couple of weeks. I think Merkel should come out of hiding again and tell everyone to keep on distancing.

    I'm also wondering why Germany has removed all travel restrictions for all of the EU plus the UK and Schengen. It seems a bit premature to me. Denmark, for example, has only opened its borders to tourists resident in Germany, Norway and Iceland, and only for tourists who have accommodation booked for at least 6 days.

    I'm generally in favour of opening the schools and kindergartens - they don't seem to be the biggest source of transmission, and businesses opening up as much as possible, but I think we should be a bit more cautious.
    Merkel hasn't been in hiding, she's been quite visible publically, but occupied with overcoming the many obstacles to the recovery fund, mainly the objections from the "frugal four". The opening of the borders must be seen in pan-european context, many other countries were quicker and were calling for Germany, as the centerpiece and hub, to do the same. She chose the middle ground, as usual.
    There were some visible health problems causing comment a few months ago. Has that story gone away now?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    June is going to be another month with a £50bn+ deficit. Anyone who claims that we are coming out of the lockdown too soon is just completely ignoring the economic realities of the situation. The government cannot continue to pay its 5m employees and another 8m furloughed without income coming in.
    It is of course highly regrettable that after 3 months of this we have still not got much of a trace and test system in place. I am not sure that there is anything inevitable about a second wave but such a system would have reduced the risk. In my experience people take social distancing at least as seriously as they should, arguably much more so given the relatively modest number of cases in the community right now but the lockdown has collapsed around the edges with families and friends once again visiting each other relatively freely and kids meeting up with their pals as a matter of routine.
    Scotland is in serious danger of being left behind in all this with an overly cautious and maternalistic government being much more equivocal about normal life starting again. This will cost hundreds of Scottish businesses and thousands of Scottish jobs. Ironically, the additional weakening of the Scottish economy and the inevitably greater reliance upon English subsidy just might save the Union.

    You are dreaming David, the shambles from Tories has already cost many Scottish lives , we should not allow their greed to cause more. The sooner we are free of these criminals and shysters the better. Given the state they have made of Scotland we can do no worse on our own , trying to pretend we are subsidised is pathetic.
    The key to independence is a viable economy but a bureaucratic, public service dominated Scottish government has never seen that, being much more focused on "freebies" than the economic results. Our University sector is facing devastation as a result of such policies but it is not alone. The Highlands will be economically destroyed by Nicola's reluctance to follow suite and we will sadly have a legacy of semi-derelict hotels, cafes and shops for a long time to come.
    In my own line of work the Scottish Courts system is already at least 8 weeks behind England in terms of opening up again and announcement after announcement by Scottish Courts is followed by really pitiful amounts of action on the ground and the odd token hearing with no jury trials until next month at the earliest and then only 2 set down.
    I'm afraid that you are the one that is dreaming Malcolm if you think such caution and hesitancy comes without a price.
    The irony is that to be a viable independent nation Scotland really needs to be led by a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy.

    But unless Scotland goes independent they're never going to get that.

    It's a Catch 22 dilemma.
    I once knew a Welsh nationalist who desperately wanted independence because he thought the only way to remove the sclerotic and desperately corrupt Welsh public sector was an economic collapse followed by a total rebuild from first principles.

    He thought independence was the best and possibly only way to achieve that.
    He'd get the economic collapse bit.

    He wouldn't get the total rebuild from first principles.
    Why not?

    Without the Welsh getting fiscal transfers from England anymore they'd have no choice but to rebuild the economy.
    The economy would stabilise at a level that would be smaller, with greatly reduced spending on public services and a drop in living standards.

    I'm not sure that what he's after.
    It might be. Especially since his thinking seems to mirror mine - sclerotic is a word I use a lot though mainly to describe the EU. The Welsh need greatly reduced spending on public services, the public sector is sclerotic and crowds out the private sector.

    If the Welsh have to cut their cloth according to what they can afford (as opposed to what the English can afford) then they will need to adjust with a sharp shock but can then do what they need to do to try and grow and catch up with England on their own two feet.

    If they can do that then they will be far better off and be able to afford the public services in reality rather than have simply having whatever charity of fiscal transfers they can get crowding out the private sector.

    A public sector outspending what the private sector can afford is not a good thing. It crowds out the private sector and forces a brain drain so that people join the public sector rather than innovate and develop private businesses which are required to pay for the public sector.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    June is going to be another month with a £50bn+ deficit. Anyone who claims that we are coming out of the lockdown too soon is just completely ignoring the economic realities of the situation. The government cannot continue to pay its 5m employees and another 8m furloughed without income coming in.
    It is of course highly regrettable that after 3 months of this we have still not got much of a trace and test system in place. I am not sure that there is anything inevitable about a second wave but such a system would have reduced the risk. In my experience people take social distancing at least as seriously as they should, arguably much more so given the relatively modest number of cases in the community right now but the lockdown has collapsed around the edges with families and friends once again visiting each other relatively freely and kids meeting up with their pals as a matter of routine.
    Scotland is in serious danger of being left behind in all this with an overly cautious and maternalistic government being much more equivocal about normal life starting again. This will cost hundreds of Scottish businesses and thousands of Scottish jobs. Ironically, the additional weakening of the Scottish economy and the inevitably greater reliance upon English subsidy just might save the Union.

    You are dreaming David, the shambles from Tories has already cost many Scottish lives , we should not allow their greed to cause more. The sooner we are free of these criminals and shysters the better. Given the state they have made of Scotland we can do no worse on our own , trying to pretend we are subsidised is pathetic.
    The key to independence is a viable economy but a bureaucratic, public service dominated Scottish government has never seen that, being much more focused on "freebies" than the economic results. Our University sector is facing devastation as a result of such policies but it is not alone. The Highlands will be economically destroyed by Nicola's reluctance to follow suite and we will sadly have a legacy of semi-derelict hotels, cafes and shops for a long time to come.
    In my own line of work the Scottish Courts system is already at least 8 weeks behind England in terms of opening up again and announcement after announcement by Scottish Courts is followed by really pitiful amounts of action on the ground and the odd token hearing with no jury trials until next month at the earliest and then only 2 set down.
    I'm afraid that you are the one that is dreaming Malcolm if you think such caution and hesitancy comes without a price.
    The irony is that to be a viable independent nation Scotland really needs to be led by a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy.

    But unless Scotland goes independent they're never going to get that.

    It's a Catch 22 dilemma.
    Scotland needs a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy. On the other hand, what Scotland does not need is a party like the Tories which spaffed North Sea Oil revenues up the wall to prop up its failed economic dogma.
    Indeed.

    The party that said “f*ck business” is hardly likely to persuade centre-right Scots that it would act in their best interest.

    The Tories act in the interests of Tories.
    On paper that should have been a Gerald Ratner moment, but in the real world it wasn't.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    kamski said:

    Just saw this. Will the German public scream for Angela Merkel's head, and will their Peers Morgenz be barracking government ministers like a fishwife?

    Or will they handle it calmly and accept that shit happens? Answers on a postcard...
    If the situation was reversed, and the UK had Germany's figures and Germany had bad figures like France and Spain and Italy, I can just imagine the endless breastbeating and invocations of the blitz spirit and WW2 and world_beating this or that. We'd never hear the end of it. There's been no crowing in Germany that I am aware of. It's a generally more mature public discourse - it would be hard to imagine someone who writes adolescent limericks about the president of Turkey having sex with goats becoming chancellor.
    It's hard to imagine a limerick working in the German language full stop.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Surrey said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    June is going to be another month with a £50bn+ deficit. Anyone who claims that we are coming out of the lockdown too soon is just completely ignoring the economic realities of the situation. The government cannot continue to pay its 5m employees and another 8m furloughed without income coming in.
    It is of course highly regrettable that after 3 months of this we have still not got much of a trace and test system in place. I am not sure that there is anything inevitable about a second wave but such a system would have reduced the risk. In my experience people take social distancing at least as seriously as they should, arguably much more so given the relatively modest number of cases in the community right now but the lockdown has collapsed around the edges with families and friends once again visiting each other relatively freely and kids meeting up with their pals as a matter of routine.
    Scotland is in serious danger of being left behind in all this with an overly cautious and maternalistic government being much more equivocal about normal life starting again. This will cost hundreds of Scottish businesses and thousands of Scottish jobs. Ironically, the additional weakening of the Scottish economy and the inevitably greater reliance upon English subsidy just might save the Union.

    You are dreaming David, the shambles from Tories has already cost many Scottish lives , we should not allow their greed to cause more. The sooner we are free of these criminals and shysters the better. Given the state they have made of Scotland we can do no worse on our own , trying to pretend we are subsidised is pathetic.
    The key to independence is a viable economy but a bureaucratic, public service dominated Scottish government has never seen that, being much more focused on "freebies" than the economic results. Our University sector is facing devastation as a result of such policies but it is not alone. The Highlands will be economically destroyed by Nicola's reluctance to follow suite and we will sadly have a legacy of semi-derelict hotels, cafes and shops for a long time to come.
    In my own line of work the Scottish Courts system is already at least 8 weeks behind England in terms of opening up again and announcement after announcement by Scottish Courts is followed by really pitiful amounts of action on the ground and the odd token hearing with no jury trials until next month at the earliest and then only 2 set down.
    I'm afraid that you are the one that is dreaming Malcolm if you think such caution and hesitancy comes without a price.
    The irony is that to be a viable independent nation Scotland really needs to be led by a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy.

    But unless Scotland goes independent they're never going to get that.

    It's a Catch 22 dilemma.
    Scotland needs a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy. On the other hand, what Scotland does not need is a party like the Tories which spaffed North Sea Oil revenues up the wall to prop up its failed economic dogma.
    Indeed.

    The party that said “f*ck business” is hardly likely to persuade centre-right Scots that it would act in their best interest.

    The Tories act in the interests of Tories.
    On paper that should have been a Gerald Ratner moment, but in the real world it wasn't.
    Had the opposition been led by a Blair instead of a Corbyn it might have been.

    In reality business understood what was being said and that there was still only one party to vote for and it wasn't any of the opposition parties.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kamski said:

    Just saw this. Will the German public scream for Angela Merkel's head, and will their Peers Morgenz be barracking government ministers like a fishwife?

    Or will they handle it calmly and accept that shit happens? Answers on a postcard...
    If the situation was reversed, and the UK had Germany's figures and Germany had bad figures like France and Spain and Italy, I can just imagine the endless breastbeating and invocations of the blitz spirit and WW2 and world_beating this or that. We'd never hear the end of it. There's been no crowing in Germany that I am aware of. It's a generally more mature public discourse - it would be hard to imagine someone who writes adolescent limericks about the president of Turkey having sex with goats becoming chancellor.
    How can you be so certain? Perhaps the release of former Bundeskanzlerin Merkel's revelatory 'einige obszöne Gedichte' will cause a great stir in her retirement... :smile:
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited June 2020

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    June is going to be another month with a £50bn+ deficit. Anyone who claims that we are coming out of the lockdown too soon is just completely ignoring the economic realities of the situation. The government cannot continue to pay its 5m employees and another 8m furloughed without income coming in.
    It is of course highly regrettable that after 3 months of this we have still not got much of a trace and test system in place. I am not sure that there is anything inevitable about a second wave but such a system would have reduced the risk. In my experience people take social distancing at least as seriously as they should, arguably much more so given the relatively modest number of cases in the community right now but the lockdown has collapsed around the edges with families and friends once again visiting each other relatively freely and kids meeting up with their pals as a matter of routine.
    Scotland is in serious danger of being left behind in all this with an overly cautious and maternalistic government being much more equivocal about normal life starting again. This will cost hundreds of Scottish businesses and thousands of Scottish jobs. Ironically, the additional weakening of the Scottish economy and the inevitably greater reliance upon English subsidy just might save the Union.

    You are dreaming David, the shambles from Tories has already cost many Scottish lives , we should not allow their greed to cause more. The sooner we are free of these criminals and shysters the better. Given the state they have made of Scotland we can do no worse on our own , trying to pretend we are subsidised is pathetic.
    The key to independence is a viable economy but a bureaucratic, public service dominated Scottish government has never seen that, being much more focused on "freebies" than the economic results. Our University sector is facing devastation as a result of such policies but it is not alone. The Highlands will be economically destroyed by Nicola's reluctance to follow suite and we will sadly have a legacy of semi-derelict hotels, cafes and shops for a long time to come.
    In my own line of work the Scottish Courts system is already at least 8 weeks behind England in terms of opening up again and announcement after announcement by Scottish Courts is followed by really pitiful amounts of action on the ground and the odd token hearing with no jury trials until next month at the earliest and then only 2 set down.
    I'm afraid that you are the one that is dreaming Malcolm if you think such caution and hesitancy comes without a price.
    The irony is that to be a viable independent nation Scotland really needs to be led by a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy.

    But unless Scotland goes independent they're never going to get that.

    It's a Catch 22 dilemma.
    I once knew a Welsh nationalist who desperately wanted independence because he thought the only way to remove the sclerotic and desperately corrupt Welsh public sector was an economic collapse followed by a total rebuild from first principles.

    He thought independence was the best and possibly only way to achieve that.
    He'd get the economic collapse bit.

    He wouldn't get the total rebuild from first principles.
    Why not?

    Without the Welsh getting fiscal transfers from England anymore they'd have no choice but to rebuild the economy.
    The economy would stabilise at a level that would be smaller, with greatly reduced spending on public services and a drop in living standards.

    I'm not sure that what he's after.
    It might be. Especially since his thinking seems to mirror mine - sclerotic is a word I use a lot though mainly to describe the EU. The Welsh need greatly reduced spending on public services, the public sector is sclerotic and crowds out the private sector.

    If the Welsh have to cut their cloth according to what they can afford (as opposed to what the English can afford) then they will need to adjust with a sharp shock but can then do what they need to do to try and grow and catch up with England on their own two feet.

    If they can do that then they will be far better off and be able to afford the public services in reality rather than have simply having whatever charity of fiscal transfers they can get crowding out the private sector.

    A public sector outspending what the private sector can afford is not a good thing. It crowds out the private sector and forces a brain drain so that people join the public sector rather than innovate and develop private businesses which are required to pay for the public sector.
    The private sector doesn't pay for the public sector. They pay for and support each other in a state of symbiosis. The trick is to get the optimum balance.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    Barnesian said:

    Irish government being sensible again.

    "The "ah sure, I'll be grand" mentality of Irish people with a cough or cold will have to become a thing of the past, according to the Irish Chief Medical Officer.

    Dr Tony Holohan says people will be advised not to go to work or out and about with minor coughs or colds in the future to try and stop spreading the virus.

    Speaking at the Department of Health daily briefing, Dr Holohan said: "It's not maybe a uniquely Irish thing but the 'ah sure I'll be grand' and going to work with coughs and colds, that was a kind of socially acceptable thing to do.

    "We need to move to a situation where going to school, going out for the evening, going to work, with coughs and colds and sniffles and so on becomes a thing of the past. This will benefit a range of other respiratory diseases as well."


    I hope this becomes part of the new normal. This behavourial change by itself could make a big difference.

    In an office job, hopefully the trend will be toward working from home if able, not taking a day off sick. Many people are perfectly capable to work when they have a cold - I know several who seem to have one more often than not.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Surrey said:

    Next US president (projected EC votes as result of election), midprices:
    Biden 1.745
    Trump 2.67

    Republican candidate (as result of convention), last matched prices:
    Trump 1.07
    Pence 30
    Haley 70
    Romney 170
    Ryan 490
    Kasich 590
    D Johnson 700
    C Rice 710
    Sasse 800
    Owens 810
    Cruz 850

    Trump today will address "Students for Trump" at a church in Phoenix, Arizona. Organisers say they expect 3000, whom they will ask but not require to wear masks.

    They don't get it, do they? If they did, they'd choose from the following options:

    * make masks compulsory
    * don't hold such events
    * "double down" on "We're not pussies. We don't need no stinking masks! Infection figures are fake news!" and hope the (surviving) wrestling fan vote overwhelms the rest of the population in four and a half months' time.

    Not sure if this has been mentioned - Fox got a big audience bump off Trump's speech. So even if his supports weren't there, he probably reached his base quite well

    https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-rally-gives-fox-news-largest-saturday-night-audience-in-history
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Cyclefree said:
    Hard to see how long he can keep this up. People are very clued up on legalities in planning matters, on predetermination and actual and apparent biases and need for declarations and so on. If there are any threads on him they will be pulled.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Cyclefree said:

    The names and addresses for pubs should be a laugh. I am often away from my address for prolonged periods and it often takes a while before letters and mail catch up with me.

    At the same time, I usually use an email for signing up for stuff or services that demand an email and I only check that mailbox periodically. If they demand an email that is the one they will get because I am not handing my usual email out to a pub chain on the door so they can either lose the list or give it to spammers or use it for their own campaigns.

    I presume that they will all be made aware of their legal responsibilities regarding data protection, personal data and GDPR?

    Those with lawyers for mothers will. 🙂

    This may be easier for pubs with regular clients: Daughter knows pretty much everyone who comes in and while it will be a pain having to write down everyone’s names and a contact number so be it.

    Any app cannot be made compulsory because the internet is simply not strong enough here to allow everyone to use it - whether for ordering drinks or anything else.

    Only those pubs which have already been preparing will be ready to open on the 4th. Not every pub around here will be doing so. Daughter is. She is going to give it until no later than September to see if she can make it but is going to give it her best shot.

    She’s got the PPE for staff. Incidentally she said that wearing masks for hours in a hot kitchen is a nightmare.
    Hand sanitizers at entrances / exits / loos.
    Screen at the bar.
    Tables 2 metres apart outside and the boules playing area used for tables.
    Village hall and local firm are lending/building her a temporary gazebo so that she can have more covered tables.
    Outside heaters.
    Alcohol off licence for those wanting to drink on the green.
    Lots of lovely new hanging baskets and colourful flowers (courtesy of Mum and provided the marauding lambs don’t eat them first).
    Everything is being cleaned to within an inch of its life.

    Just pray that Boris does not come up with some daft rules and for good weather for the next 3 months!
    On the PPE in kitchens - this kind of thing was why I was asking Foxy about the usage of non-disposable masks with a belt air-pump.

    People use them in welding - the forced air means that they, effectively, have built in air-conditioning.
    Yes they are quite comfortable, the ICU teams report. The problem is communication as the wearer is rendered deaf. ICU has its own language of hand signals now.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Cyclefree said:
    What I don't get is why hasn't he already been sacked for being blatantly incompetent - he can't even do bribes without making it obvious.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405



    In an office job, hopefully the trend will be toward working from home if able, not taking a day off sick. Many people are perfectly capable to work when they have a cold - I know several who seem to have one more often than not.

    That only works for management that looks for results rather than presentism..
  • matthiasfromhamburgmatthiasfromhamburg Posts: 957
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    kamski said:

    In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    It's actually only in one district afaik, so the headline and article are quite misleading as they give the impression it is the whole of NRW.

    Having said that, I am worried that Germany has lost it a bit in the last couple of weeks. I think Merkel should come out of hiding again and tell everyone to keep on distancing.

    I'm also wondering why Germany has removed all travel restrictions for all of the EU plus the UK and Schengen. It seems a bit premature to me. Denmark, for example, has only opened its borders to tourists resident in Germany, Norway and Iceland, and only for tourists who have accommodation booked for at least 6 days.

    I'm generally in favour of opening the schools and kindergartens - they don't seem to be the biggest source of transmission, and businesses opening up as much as possible, but I think we should be a bit more cautious.
    Merkel hasn't been in hiding, she's been quite visible publically, but occupied with overcoming the many obstacles to the recovery fund, mainly the objections from the "frugal four". The opening of the borders must be seen in pan-european context, many other countries were quicker and were calling for Germany, as the centerpiece and hub, to do the same. She chose the middle ground, as usual.
    There were some visible health problems causing comment a few months ago. Has that story gone away now?
    There were several incidents last summer, but it never was a really big story. It's been largely forgotten, even the fruitcakes aren't obsessing over it. The underlying medical condition is unknown in public, but certainly still there. She has a year to go and is surely looking forward to retirement. She never appeared to be obsessed by power, more a sense of duty.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Barnesian said:

    Irish government being sensible again.

    "The "ah sure, I'll be grand" mentality of Irish people with a cough or cold will have to become a thing of the past, according to the Irish Chief Medical Officer.

    Dr Tony Holohan says people will be advised not to go to work or out and about with minor coughs or colds in the future to try and stop spreading the virus.

    Speaking at the Department of Health daily briefing, Dr Holohan said: "It's not maybe a uniquely Irish thing but the 'ah sure I'll be grand' and going to work with coughs and colds, that was a kind of socially acceptable thing to do.

    "We need to move to a situation where going to school, going out for the evening, going to work, with coughs and colds and sniffles and so on becomes a thing of the past. This will benefit a range of other respiratory diseases as well."


    I hope this becomes part of the new normal. This behavourial change by itself could make a big difference.

    In an office job, hopefully the trend will be toward working from home if able, not taking a day off sick. Many people are perfectly capable to work when they have a cold - I know several who seem to have one more often than not.
    The issue at our office was that those not working from home regularly would not therefore take their laptops with them so if they got a sniffles its come in to get it or no work. I suppose it is tied in with more work needed on ensuring all are set up for home working, mandating taking home equipment and the like.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    June is going to be another month with a £50bn+ deficit. Anyone who claims that we are coming out of the lockdown too soon is just completely ignoring the economic realities of the situation. The government cannot continue to pay its 5m employees and another 8m furloughed without income coming in.
    It is of course highly regrettable that after 3 months of this we have still not got much of a trace and test system in place. I am not sure that there is anything inevitable about a second wave but such a system would have reduced the risk. In my experience people take social distancing at least as seriously as they should, arguably much more so given the relatively modest number of cases in the community right now but the lockdown has collapsed around the edges with families and friends once again visiting each other relatively freely and kids meeting up with their pals as a matter of routine.
    Scotland is in serious danger of being left behind in all this with an overly cautious and maternalistic government being much more equivocal about normal life starting again. This will cost hundreds of Scottish businesses and thousands of Scottish jobs. Ironically, the additional weakening of the Scottish economy and the inevitably greater reliance upon English subsidy just might save the Union.

    You are dreaming David, the shambles from Tories has already cost many Scottish lives , we should not allow their greed to cause more. The sooner we are free of these criminals and shysters the better. Given the state they have made of Scotland we can do no worse on our own , trying to pretend we are subsidised is pathetic.
    The key to independence is a viable economy but a bureaucratic, public service dominated Scottish government has never seen that, being much more focused on "freebies" than the economic results. Our University sector is facing devastation as a result of such policies but it is not alone. The Highlands will be economically destroyed by Nicola's reluctance to follow suite and we will sadly have a legacy of semi-derelict hotels, cafes and shops for a long time to come.
    In my own line of work the Scottish Courts system is already at least 8 weeks behind England in terms of opening up again and announcement after announcement by Scottish Courts is followed by really pitiful amounts of action on the ground and the odd token hearing with no jury trials until next month at the earliest and then only 2 set down.
    I'm afraid that you are the one that is dreaming Malcolm if you think such caution and hesitancy comes without a price.
    The irony is that to be a viable independent nation Scotland really needs to be led by a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy.

    But unless Scotland goes independent they're never going to get that.

    It's a Catch 22 dilemma.
    I once knew a Welsh nationalist who desperately wanted independence because he thought the only way to remove the sclerotic and desperately corrupt Welsh public sector was an economic collapse followed by a total rebuild from first principles.

    He thought independence was the best and possibly only way to achieve that.
    He'd get the economic collapse bit.

    He wouldn't get the total rebuild from first principles.
    Why not?

    Without the Welsh getting fiscal transfers from England anymore they'd have no choice but to rebuild the economy.
    The economy would stabilise at a level that would be smaller, with greatly reduced spending on public services and a drop in living standards.

    I'm not sure that what he's after.
    It might be. Especially since his thinking seems to mirror mine - sclerotic is a word I use a lot though mainly to describe the EU. The Welsh need greatly reduced spending on public services, the public sector is sclerotic and crowds out the private sector.

    If the Welsh have to cut their cloth according to what they can afford (as opposed to what the English can afford) then they will need to adjust with a sharp shock but can then do what they need to do to try and grow and catch up with England on their own two feet.

    If they can do that then they will be far better off and be able to afford the public services in reality rather than have simply having whatever charity of fiscal transfers they can get crowding out the private sector.

    A public sector outspending what the private sector can afford is not a good thing. It crowds out the private sector and forces a brain drain so that people join the public sector rather than innovate and develop private businesses which are required to pay for the public sector.
    The private sector doesn't pay for the public sector. They pay for and support each other in a state of symbiosis. The trick is to get the optimum balance.
    The private sector absolutely pays for the public sector. The amount of taxes businesses have to pay is eyewateringly incredible and without a successful private sector the public sector can not be afforded.

    Balance is required but that was my point: Wales hasn't got balance. Wales has a public sector disproportionately much bigger than what the Welsh private sector can pay for. If Wales were to go independent then the Welsh government would be forced to cut its public sector - most people assume that is a bad thing because bigger is better supposedly, I on the other hand do not.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    kamski said:

    In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    It's actually only in one district afaik, so the headline and article are quite misleading as they give the impression it is the whole of NRW.

    Having said that, I am worried that Germany has lost it a bit in the last couple of weeks. I think Merkel should come out of hiding again and tell everyone to keep on distancing.

    I'm also wondering why Germany has removed all travel restrictions for all of the EU plus the UK and Schengen. It seems a bit premature to me. Denmark, for example, has only opened its borders to tourists resident in Germany, Norway and Iceland, and only for tourists who have accommodation booked for at least 6 days.

    I'm generally in favour of opening the schools and kindergartens - they don't seem to be the biggest source of transmission, and businesses opening up as much as possible, but I think we should be a bit more cautious.
    Merkel hasn't been in hiding, she's been quite visible publically, but occupied with overcoming the many obstacles to the recovery fund, mainly the objections from the "frugal four". The opening of the borders must be seen in pan-european context, many other countries were quicker and were calling for Germany, as the centerpiece and hub, to do the same. She chose the middle ground, as usual.
    There were some visible health problems causing comment a few months ago. Has that story gone away now?
    There were several incidents last summer, but it never was a really big story. It's been largely forgotten, the underlying medical condition is unknown in public, but certainly still there. She has a year to go and is surely looking forward to retirement. She never appeared to be obsessed by power, more a sense of duty.
    But hasn't her successor been unsuccessored, as it were? Anyone else emerging as a frontrunner?

    Abd while she seems good, competent and dutiful on the whole, I doubt someone can stay at the top so long purely out of duty without at least a little obsession for power, a sense of duty that conveniently requires them in power.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    If anybody wants to know what the media reaction to the UK having to reintroduce a local lockdown compared to Germany, see their instant reaction to the idea pubs and restaurants would take contact details yesterday...derision...and this despite being exactly what Germany did.

    I think it is highly likely we will at some point, it is the nature of the beast.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    eek said:

    What I don't get is why hasn't he already been sacked for being blatantly incompetent - he can't even do bribes without making it obvious.

    Neither incompetence, nor being caught blatantly breaking rules, are disqualifying traits for this Government

    *cough* Cummings *cough*
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Cyclefree said:

    The names and addresses for pubs should be a laugh. I am often away from my address for prolonged periods and it often takes a while before letters and mail catch up with me.

    At the same time, I usually use an email for signing up for stuff or services that demand an email and I only check that mailbox periodically. If they demand an email that is the one they will get because I am not handing my usual email out to a pub chain on the door so they can either lose the list or give it to spammers or use it for their own campaigns.

    I presume that they will all be made aware of their legal responsibilities regarding data protection, personal data and GDPR?

    Those with lawyers for mothers will. 🙂

    :D
    Cyclefree said:

    This may be easier for pubs with regular clients: Daughter knows pretty much everyone who comes in and while it will be a pain having to write down everyone’s names and a contact number so be it.

    Any app cannot be made compulsory because the internet is simply not strong enough here to allow everyone to use it - whether for ordering drinks or anything else.

    Only those pubs which have already been preparing will be ready to open on the 4th. Not every pub around here will be doing so. Daughter is. She is going to give it until no later than September to see if she can make it but is going to give it her best shot.
    ...

    My very best wishes to Cycle Jr :+1: and I hope it all pays off for her.

    OTOH, I think we can count on Boris to come up with something daft. Buffoonery is, apparently, his main selling point - something he seems to have specialised in for years ;)
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    edited June 2020
    kle4 said:

    Barnesian said:

    Irish government being sensible again.

    "The "ah sure, I'll be grand" mentality of Irish people with a cough or cold will have to become a thing of the past, according to the Irish Chief Medical Officer.

    Dr Tony Holohan says people will be advised not to go to work or out and about with minor coughs or colds in the future to try and stop spreading the virus.

    Speaking at the Department of Health daily briefing, Dr Holohan said: "It's not maybe a uniquely Irish thing but the 'ah sure I'll be grand' and going to work with coughs and colds, that was a kind of socially acceptable thing to do.

    "We need to move to a situation where going to school, going out for the evening, going to work, with coughs and colds and sniffles and so on becomes a thing of the past. This will benefit a range of other respiratory diseases as well."


    I hope this becomes part of the new normal. This behavourial change by itself could make a big difference.

    In an office job, hopefully the trend will be toward working from home if able, not taking a day off sick. Many people are perfectly capable to work when they have a cold - I know several who seem to have one more often than not.
    The issue at our office was that those not working from home regularly would not therefore take their laptops with them so if they got a sniffles its come in to get it or no work. I suppose it is tied in with more work needed on ensuring all are set up for home working, mandating taking home equipment and the like.
    I'm surprised at that, we are not insured for laptops left in the office when the office is unoccupied out of hours.
    Which means if you have a laptop you need to take them home.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    eek said:

    kle4 said:

    Barnesian said:

    Irish government being sensible again.

    "The "ah sure, I'll be grand" mentality of Irish people with a cough or cold will have to become a thing of the past, according to the Irish Chief Medical Officer.

    Dr Tony Holohan says people will be advised not to go to work or out and about with minor coughs or colds in the future to try and stop spreading the virus.

    Speaking at the Department of Health daily briefing, Dr Holohan said: "It's not maybe a uniquely Irish thing but the 'ah sure I'll be grand' and going to work with coughs and colds, that was a kind of socially acceptable thing to do.

    "We need to move to a situation where going to school, going out for the evening, going to work, with coughs and colds and sniffles and so on becomes a thing of the past. This will benefit a range of other respiratory diseases as well."


    I hope this becomes part of the new normal. This behavourial change by itself could make a big difference.

    In an office job, hopefully the trend will be toward working from home if able, not taking a day off sick. Many people are perfectly capable to work when they have a cold - I know several who seem to have one more often than not.
    The issue at our office was that those not working from home regularly would not therefore take their laptops with them so if they got a sniffles its come in to get it or no work. I suppose it is tied in with more work needed on ensuring all are set up for home working, mandating taking home equipment and the like.
    I'm surprised at that, we are not insured for laptops left in the office when the office is unoccupied out of hours.
    Which means if you have a laptop you need to take them home.
    They do have to be locked away.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Hard to see how long he can keep this up. People are very clued up on legalities in planning matters, on predetermination and actual and apparent biases and need for declarations and so on. If there are any threads on him they will be pulled.
    Maybe he just cannot help himself? "Oh look! A planning application ....." :D:D
  • ChelyabinskChelyabinsk Posts: 500
    isam said:

    What colour is Jesus in non white societies?

    The whole thing is pretty rich coming from Talcum X.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Scott_xP said:

    eek said:

    What I don't get is why hasn't he already been sacked for being blatantly incompetent - he can't even do bribes without making it obvious.

    Neither incompetence, nor being caught blatantly breaking rules, are disqualifying traits for this Government

    *cough* Cummings *cough*
    They never have been for government generally. Some are just worse at it, partly tied I expect to majority size and general shamelessness.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    isam said:
    Not a bad idea, but better for the Churches to disappear altogether.

    Jesus is a fictional character but even if he wasn't he wouldn't have been white.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    Human trials for a Covid-19 vaccine developed by Oxford University are beginning in South Africa and Brazil.

    In South Africa, 2,000 people will be involved in what is widely considered one of most advanced trials for a vaccine to tackle the pandemic. The first doses of the vaccine will be administered in Johannesburg this week.

    Hopefully they get the dose right this time!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited June 2020
    isam said:

    What colour skin do depictions of Jesus in non white societies?

    Well there was that chinese chap who said he was the brother of Jesus.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    edited June 2020

    kamski said:

    In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    It's actually only in one district afaik, so the headline and article are quite misleading as they give the impression it is the whole of NRW.

    Having said that, I am worried that Germany has lost it a bit in the last couple of weeks. I think Merkel should come out of hiding again and tell everyone to keep on distancing.

    I'm also wondering why Germany has removed all travel restrictions for all of the EU plus the UK and Schengen. It seems a bit premature to me. Denmark, for example, has only opened its borders to tourists resident in Germany, Norway and Iceland, and only for tourists who have accommodation booked for at least 6 days.

    I'm generally in favour of opening the schools and kindergartens - they don't seem to be the biggest source of transmission, and businesses opening up as much as possible, but I think we should be a bit more cautious.
    Merkel hasn't been in hiding, she's been quite visible publically, but occupied with overcoming the many obstacles to the recovery fund, mainly the objections from the "frugal four". The opening of the borders must be seen in pan-european context, many other countries were quicker and were calling for Germany, as the centerpiece and hub, to do the same. She chose the middle ground, as usual.
    ok, but unless I missed it, she has said nothing about the spike in R, the major outbreak in Gütersloh or the other recent outbreaks, the apparent reversal of the decline in the number of new infections. Nor about what I am seeing everywhere in Cologne the last week, which is people often ignoring what's left of the distancing rules, which is where a statement from her I think could help.

    I'm sure you're right that she opened borders to all European countries to be a good European to the other countries, but it just doesn't seem logical to me that it becomes safe to travel to and from all these different countries on the same day. Being the hub during an epidemic is not a great place to be.
  • kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kamski said:

    In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    It's actually only in one district afaik, so the headline and article are quite misleading as they give the impression it is the whole of NRW.

    Having said that, I am worried that Germany has lost it a bit in the last couple of weeks. I think Merkel should come out of hiding again and tell everyone to keep on distancing.

    I'm also wondering why Germany has removed all travel restrictions for all of the EU plus the UK and Schengen. It seems a bit premature to me. Denmark, for example, has only opened its borders to tourists resident in Germany, Norway and Iceland, and only for tourists who have accommodation booked for at least 6 days.

    I'm generally in favour of opening the schools and kindergartens - they don't seem to be the biggest source of transmission, and businesses opening up as much as possible, but I think we should be a bit more cautious.
    Merkel hasn't been in hiding, she's been quite visible publically, but occupied with overcoming the many obstacles to the recovery fund, mainly the objections from the "frugal four". The opening of the borders must be seen in pan-european context, many other countries were quicker and were calling for Germany, as the centerpiece and hub, to do the same. She chose the middle ground, as usual.
    There were some visible health problems causing comment a few months ago. Has that story gone away now?
    There were several incidents last summer, but it never was a really big story. It's been largely forgotten, the underlying medical condition is unknown in public, but certainly still there. She has a year to go and is surely looking forward to retirement. She never appeared to be obsessed by power, more a sense of duty.
    But hasn't her successor been unsuccessored, as it were? Anyone else emerging as a frontrunner?

    Abd while she seems good, competent and dutiful on the whole, I doubt someone can stay at the top so long purely out of duty without at least a little obsession for power, a sense of duty that conveniently requires them in power.
    Your last paragraph holds true for her first years in the chancellory.

    Laschet has lost the pole position for her succesion as CDU chair, maybe Spahn is in with a chance. There's a good chance that CSU chair Söder will be the Spitzenkandidat for the next GE. He's managed to look capable and competent, I think he would be the best choice and he's been leading the polls by a country mile.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Barnesian said:

    Irish government being sensible again.

    "The "ah sure, I'll be grand" mentality of Irish people with a cough or cold will have to become a thing of the past, according to the Irish Chief Medical Officer.

    Dr Tony Holohan says people will be advised not to go to work or out and about with minor coughs or colds in the future to try and stop spreading the virus.

    Speaking at the Department of Health daily briefing, Dr Holohan said: "It's not maybe a uniquely Irish thing but the 'ah sure I'll be grand' and going to work with coughs and colds, that was a kind of socially acceptable thing to do.

    "We need to move to a situation where going to school, going out for the evening, going to work, with coughs and colds and sniffles and so on becomes a thing of the past. This will benefit a range of other respiratory diseases as well."


    I hope this becomes part of the new normal. This behavourial change by itself could make a big difference.

    The new normal will be very much like the old normal of our grandparents who, living at a time of no antibiotics and vaccines, took hygiene a bit more seriously .
    I was pondering last night what would have happened if Covid-19 had been the strain that caused the 1919 pandemic.

    I suspect it would have been very, very nasty.

    Not that the 1919 pandemic was exactly a picnic.
    I think the difference this time is communication. Information moves very, very fast these days, way, way quicker than the virus. In 1919 it was probably newspaper and radio whereas these days there are the Jeremy Vine type info-graphics and 3D animations that get information across very, very quickly.

    The message and the delivery may be poor or mistimed, but the message gets out across the whole country in a matter of minutes and in ways that people can easily absorb.

    That must make a difference
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    isam said:
    Not a bad idea, but better for the Churches to disappear altogether.

    Jesus is a fictional character but even if he wasn't he wouldn't have been white.
    Churches can be historically and culturally worth preserving even if no longer used for worship.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240
    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    What I don't get is why hasn't he already been sacked for being blatantly incompetent - he can't even do bribes without making it obvious.
    1. This Prime Minister rewards loyalty over competence. Makes sense in a way; if he were to clear out the incompetent, he would have to start in Number 10. But having started down that line, he's a bit stuck. If you promote and retain based on mindless loyalty, you kill the flow of competent and loyal enough coming up.

    2. Jenrick should obviously go. But unless you can point to a specific rule broken, with a specific sanction and someone other than the Prime Minister to enforce that sanction, forget it. (Thought experiment; he's a solicitor. If his actions somehow caused him to get into trouble with his professional body, would that force the government's hand? I'm not sure it would.)
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    isam said:
    Shaun King is being a dangerous moron. At the moment there's hardly anything that extreme-right white racists who are committed to starting a race war would like to see more than physical attacks on churches accompanied with "BLM" graffiti.

    In Britain I'm sure they loved Ash Sarkar's appalling "we're winning" comment too.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Cyclefree said:

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:
    What I don't get is why hasn't he already been sacked for being blatantly incompetent - he can't even do bribes without making it obvious.
    You’d hardly have a Cabinet if incompetence kept you out of it.

    He’ll probably be moved on in a reshuffle. But, yes, he ought to have resigned and, if not, been sacked.

    I don’t think of Boris as a buffoon. That makes him seem nice and fun if not v bright. It underplays the destructive malice he is bringing to British politics.
    Well we know he wouldn't resign because he doesn't see why what he was doing was wrong but I for one knew what Boris was like so held my nose and voted Labour.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Statues, though. Statues.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905

    isam said:
    Not a bad idea, but better for the Churches to disappear altogether.
    Jesus is a fictional character but even if he wasn't he wouldn't have been white.
    Don´t Jews ount as white?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Cyclefree said:

    ...I don’t think of Boris as a buffoon. That makes him seem nice and fun if not v bright.

    I regard Boris as a political Katie Hopkins - a shameless self-publicist whose mission seems to be his own success.
    Cyclefree said:

    It underplays the destructive malice he is bringing to British politics.

    I doubt he cares
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Dura_Ace said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Statues, though. Statues.
    Statues is where they started. Now they're moving on to churches. Where next, only the far left knows...
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The names and addresses for pubs should be a laugh. I am often away from my address for prolonged periods and it often takes a while before letters and mail catch up with me.

    At the same time, I usually use an email for signing up for stuff or services that demand an email and I only check that mailbox periodically. If they demand an email that is the one they will get because I am not handing my usual email out to a pub chain on the door so they can either lose the list or give it to spammers or use it for their own campaigns.

    I presume that they will all be made aware of their legal responsibilities regarding data protection, personal data and GDPR?

    Those with lawyers for mothers will. 🙂

    This may be easier for pubs with regular clients: Daughter knows pretty much everyone who comes in and while it will be a pain having to write down everyone’s names and a contact number so be it.

    Any app cannot be made compulsory because the internet is simply not strong enough here to allow everyone to use it - whether for ordering drinks or anything else.

    Only those pubs which have already been preparing will be ready to open on the 4th. Not every pub around here will be doing so. Daughter is. She is going to give it until no later than September to see if she can make it but is going to give it her best shot.

    She’s got the PPE for staff. Incidentally she said that wearing masks for hours in a hot kitchen is a nightmare.
    Hand sanitizers at entrances / exits / loos.
    Screen at the bar.
    Tables 2 metres apart outside and the boules playing area used for tables.
    Village hall and local firm are lending/building her a temporary gazebo so that she can have more covered tables.
    Outside heaters.
    Alcohol off licence for those wanting to drink on the green.
    Lots of lovely new hanging baskets and colourful flowers (courtesy of Mum and provided the marauding lambs don’t eat them first).
    Everything is being cleaned to within an inch of its life.

    Just pray that Boris does not come up with some daft rules and for good weather for the next 3 months!
    On the PPE in kitchens - this kind of thing was why I was asking Foxy about the usage of non-disposable masks with a belt air-pump.

    People use them in welding - the forced air means that they, effectively, have built in air-conditioning.
    Yes they are quite comfortable, the ICU teams report. The problem is communication as the wearer is rendered deaf. ICU has its own language of hand signals now.
    If I were in charge of education (and you should all be thankful that I am not) I would make British Sign Language a compulsory part of the curriculum, at least enough to be able to conduct a simple conversation. There are a huge number of times in crowed or noisy places where it would be really helpful to be able to say something quickly and unambiguously.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    isam said:
    Not a bad idea, but better for the Churches to disappear altogether.

    Jesus is a fictional character but even if he wasn't he wouldn't have been white.
    Churches can be historically and culturally worth preserving even if no longer used for worship.
    I know. Old Churches with stained glass windows can make great venues for bars for instance.

    My tongue was planted firmly in my cheek with my previous comment (and first paragraph of this one), sorry if that didn't come across.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    June is going to be another month with a £50bn+ deficit. Anyone who claims that we are coming out of the lockdown too soon is just completely ignoring the economic realities of the situation. The government cannot continue to pay its 5m employees and another 8m furloughed without income coming in.
    It is of course highly regrettable that after 3 months of this we have still not got much of a trace and test system in place. I am not sure that there is anything inevitable about a second wave but such a system would have reduced the risk. In my experience people take social distancing at least as seriously as they should, arguably much more so given the relatively modest number of cases in the community right now but the lockdown has collapsed around the edges with families and friends once again visiting each other relatively freely and kids meeting up with their pals as a matter of routine.
    Scotland is in serious danger of being left behind in all this with an overly cautious and maternalistic government being much more equivocal about normal life starting again. This will cost hundreds of Scottish businesses and thousands of Scottish jobs. Ironically, the additional weakening of the Scottish economy and the inevitably greater reliance upon English subsidy just might save the Union.

    You are dreaming David, the shambles from Tories has already cost many Scottish lives , we should not allow their greed to cause more. The sooner we are free of these criminals and shysters the better. Given the state they have made of Scotland we can do no worse on our own , trying to pretend we are subsidised is pathetic.
    The key to independence is a viable economy but a bureaucratic, public service dominated Scottish government has never seen that, being much more focused on "freebies" than the economic results. Our University sector is facing devastation as a result of such policies but it is not alone. The Highlands will be economically destroyed by Nicola's reluctance to follow suite and we will sadly have a legacy of semi-derelict hotels, cafes and shops for a long time to come.
    In my own line of work the Scottish Courts system is already at least 8 weeks behind England in terms of opening up again and announcement after announcement by Scottish Courts is followed by really pitiful amounts of action on the ground and the odd token hearing with no jury trials until next month at the earliest and then only 2 set down.
    I'm afraid that you are the one that is dreaming Malcolm if you think such caution and hesitancy comes without a price.
    The irony is that to be a viable independent nation Scotland really needs to be led by a party like the Tories with a focus on the economy.

    But unless Scotland goes independent they're never going to get that.

    It's a Catch 22 dilemma.
    I once knew a Welsh nationalist who desperately wanted independence because he thought the only way to remove the sclerotic and desperately corrupt Welsh public sector was an economic collapse followed by a total rebuild from first principles.

    He thought independence was the best and possibly only way to achieve that.
    He'd get the economic collapse bit.

    He wouldn't get the total rebuild from first principles.
    Why not?

    Without the Welsh getting fiscal transfers from England anymore they'd have no choice but to rebuild the economy.
    The economy would stabilise at a level that would be smaller, with greatly reduced spending on public services and a drop in living standards.

    I'm not sure that what he's after.
    It might be. Especially since his thinking seems to mirror mine - sclerotic is a word I use a lot though mainly to describe the EU. The Welsh need greatly reduced spending on public services, the public sector is sclerotic and crowds out the private sector.

    If the Welsh have to cut their cloth according to what they can afford (as opposed to what the English can afford) then they will need to adjust with a sharp shock but can then do what they need to do to try and grow and catch up with England on their own two feet.

    If they can do that then they will be far better off and be able to afford the public services in reality rather than have simply having whatever charity of fiscal transfers they can get crowding out the private sector.

    A public sector outspending what the private sector can afford is not a good thing. It crowds out the private sector and forces a brain drain so that people join the public sector rather than innovate and develop private businesses which are required to pay for the public sector.
    The private sector doesn't pay for the public sector. They pay for and support each other in a state of symbiosis. The trick is to get the optimum balance.
    The private sector absolutely pays for the public sector. The amount of taxes businesses have to pay is eyewateringly incredible and without a successful private sector the public sector can not be afforded.

    Balance is required but that was my point: Wales hasn't got balance. Wales has a public sector disproportionately much bigger than what the Welsh private sector can pay for. If Wales were to go independent then the Welsh government would be forced to cut its public sector - most people assume that is a bad thing because bigger is better supposedly, I on the other hand do not.
    If the private sector pays for the public sector it implies that without a private sector there could not be a public one. This is clearly not the case. An economy can be 100% private or 100% public. Both are feasible although of course there is little support for such extremes. Hence the challenge of striking a good balance.

    I'll pass on whether austerity would be great for Wales other than to say that if I lived there I would probably not be welcoming it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    Cyclefree said:

    I don’t think of Boris as a buffoon. That makes him seem nice and fun if not v bright. It underplays the destructive malice he is bringing to British politics.

    He's not a politician.

    Like Trump, he is the star of his own reality show, World King.

    Politics is just his latest task. Sadly we can't fire him. Yet.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    kamski said:

    In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    It's actually only in one district afaik, so the headline and article are quite misleading as they give the impression it is the whole of NRW.

    Having said that, I am worried that Germany has lost it a bit in the last couple of weeks. I think Merkel should come out of hiding again and tell everyone to keep on distancing.

    I'm also wondering why Germany has removed all travel restrictions for all of the EU plus the UK and Schengen. It seems a bit premature to me. Denmark, for example, has only opened its borders to tourists resident in Germany, Norway and Iceland, and only for tourists who have accommodation booked for at least 6 days.

    I'm generally in favour of opening the schools and kindergartens - they don't seem to be the biggest source of transmission, and businesses opening up as much as possible, but I think we should be a bit more cautious.
    Merkel hasn't been in hiding, she's been quite visible publically, but occupied with overcoming the many obstacles to the recovery fund, mainly the objections from the "frugal four". The opening of the borders must be seen in pan-european context, many other countries were quicker and were calling for Germany, as the centerpiece and hub, to do the same. She chose the middle ground, as usual.
    There were some visible health problems causing comment a few months ago. Has that story gone away now?
    There were several incidents last summer, but it never was a really big story. It's been largely forgotten, even the fruitcakes aren't obsessing over it. The underlying medical condition is unknown in public, but certainly still there. She has a year to go and is surely looking forward to retirement. She never appeared to be obsessed by power, more a sense of duty.
    Well I wish her well. Modern political giant. And such a kind face.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    ClippP said:

    isam said:
    Not a bad idea, but better for the Churches to disappear altogether.
    Jesus is a fictional character but even if he wasn't he wouldn't have been white.
    Don´t Jews ount as white?
    No, European Jews can be white but Middle Eastern Jews tend to not be white. Middle Eastern Jews tend to have a more olive to a bit darker skin colour.

    They're not typically either white or black and if the character known as Jesus were to have been real that's surely what his ethnicity would have been.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited June 2020
    ClippP said:

    isam said:
    Not a bad idea, but better for the Churches to disappear altogether.
    Jesus is a fictional character but even if he wasn't he wouldn't have been white.
    Don´t Jews ount as white?
    Historically it has depended on which way a pogrom could be justified.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    kle4 said:

    isam said:
    Not a bad idea, but better for the Churches to disappear altogether.

    Jesus is a fictional character but even if he wasn't he wouldn't have been white.
    Churches can be historically and culturally worth preserving even if no longer used for worship.
    I know. Old Churches with stained glass windows can make great venues for bars for instance.

    My tongue was planted firmly in my cheek with my previous comment (and first paragraph of this one), sorry if that didn't come across.
    I figured it was so but in these febrile times one cannot assume
  • kamski said:

    kamski said:

    In every country coming out of lockdown, they have said they may need to re-impose local/regional restrictions.

    In many countries, coming out of lockdown, they have had spikes and needed to reimpose restrictions, often on a regional or local basis.

    In Germany, coming out of lockdown, they need re-impose restrictions on a regional basis.

    UNEXPECTED! PANIC!
    It's actually only in one district afaik, so the headline and article are quite misleading as they give the impression it is the whole of NRW.

    Having said that, I am worried that Germany has lost it a bit in the last couple of weeks. I think Merkel should come out of hiding again and tell everyone to keep on distancing.

    I'm also wondering why Germany has removed all travel restrictions for all of the EU plus the UK and Schengen. It seems a bit premature to me. Denmark, for example, has only opened its borders to tourists resident in Germany, Norway and Iceland, and only for tourists who have accommodation booked for at least 6 days.

    I'm generally in favour of opening the schools and kindergartens - they don't seem to be the biggest source of transmission, and businesses opening up as much as possible, but I think we should be a bit more cautious.
    Merkel hasn't been in hiding, she's been quite visible publically, but occupied with overcoming the many obstacles to the recovery fund, mainly the objections from the "frugal four". The opening of the borders must be seen in pan-european context, many other countries were quicker and were calling for Germany, as the centerpiece and hub, to do the same. She chose the middle ground, as usual.
    ok, but unless I missed it, she has said nothing about the spike in R, the major outbreak in Gütersloh or the other recent outbreaks, the apparent reversal of the decline in the number of new infections. Nor about what I am seeing everywhere in Cologne the last week, which is people often ignoring what's left of the distancing rules, which is where a statement from her I think could help.

    I'm sure you're right that she opened borders to all European countries to be a good European to the other countries, but it just doesn't seem logical to me that it becomes safe to travel to and from all these different countries on the same day. Being the hub during an epidemic is not a great place to be.
    You will certainly be aware that public health is largely the competence of the Bundesländer. She has left the communication on that to Spahn, for the most part. Partially to raise his profile, partially because that's just appropriate. Maybe she'll make some statement soon, but she'll not announce to "take control" Johnson style.

    Being the hub in a pandemic is not a great place to be, but it's not a choice you can make or not. You just have to deal with the realities of that.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The names and addresses for pubs should be a laugh. I am often away from my address for prolonged periods and it often takes a while before letters and mail catch up with me.

    At the same time, I usually use an email for signing up for stuff or services that demand an email and I only check that mailbox periodically. If they demand an email that is the one they will get because I am not handing my usual email out to a pub chain on the door so they can either lose the list or give it to spammers or use it for their own campaigns.

    I presume that they will all be made aware of their legal responsibilities regarding data protection, personal data and GDPR?

    Those with lawyers for mothers will. 🙂

    This may be easier for pubs with regular clients: Daughter knows pretty much everyone who comes in and while it will be a pain having to write down everyone’s names and a contact number so be it.

    Any app cannot be made compulsory because the internet is simply not strong enough here to allow everyone to use it - whether for ordering drinks or anything else.

    Only those pubs which have already been preparing will be ready to open on the 4th. Not every pub around here will be doing so. Daughter is. She is going to give it until no later than September to see if she can make it but is going to give it her best shot.

    She’s got the PPE for staff. Incidentally she said that wearing masks for hours in a hot kitchen is a nightmare.
    Hand sanitizers at entrances / exits / loos.
    Screen at the bar.
    Tables 2 metres apart outside and the boules playing area used for tables.
    Village hall and local firm are lending/building her a temporary gazebo so that she can have more covered tables.
    Outside heaters.
    Alcohol off licence for those wanting to drink on the green.
    Lots of lovely new hanging baskets and colourful flowers (courtesy of Mum and provided the marauding lambs don’t eat them first).
    Everything is being cleaned to within an inch of its life.

    Just pray that Boris does not come up with some daft rules and for good weather for the next 3 months!
    On the PPE in kitchens - this kind of thing was why I was asking Foxy about the usage of non-disposable masks with a belt air-pump.

    People use them in welding - the forced air means that they, effectively, have built in air-conditioning.
    Yes they are quite comfortable, the ICU teams report. The problem is communication as the wearer is rendered deaf. ICU has its own language of hand signals now.
    If I were in charge of education (and you should all be thankful that I am not) I would make British Sign Language a compulsory part of the curriculum, at least enough to be able to conduct a simple conversation. There are a huge number of times in crowed or noisy places where it would be really helpful to be able to say something quickly and unambiguously.
    Not only that, but thinking of things (in this case, language) from different angles helps with the development of intellect. Braille should be taught too. Learning Braille is known to stimulate neuroplasticity and I imagine the same is true for sign language.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,264
    Surrey said:

    isam said:
    Shaun King is being a dangerous moron. At the moment there's hardly anything that extreme-right white racists who are committed to starting a race war would like to see more than physical attacks on churches accompanied with "BLM" graffiti.

    In Britain I'm sure they loved Ash Sarkar's appalling "we're winning" comment too.
    What colour was the Egyptian population back in 0 AD? I thought they were all Greek.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Both are waging it but the big difference is the cause. The generals of the Left are doing it to change society. The generals of the Right are doing it to win "silent majority" elections under false pretences.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Surrey said:

    isam said:
    Shaun King is being a dangerous moron. At the moment there's hardly anything that extreme-right white racists who are committed to starting a race war would like to see more than physical attacks on churches accompanied with "BLM" graffiti.

    In Britain I'm sure they loved Ash Sarkar's appalling "we're winning" comment too.
    What colour was the Egyptian population back in 0 AD? I thought they were all Greek.
    No more so than all Indians were white under the empire
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,378
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    What colour skin do depictions of Jesus in non white societies?

    Well there was that chinese chap who said he was the brother of Jesus.
    Hong Xiuquan, the Heavenly King. I think that Jesus is often depicted as black in Ethiopia, whose conversion to Christianity took place long before the era of European missionaries.

    Most people would regard the inhabitants of the Levant as white.
  • Surrey said:

    isam said:
    Shaun King is being a dangerous moron. At the moment there's hardly anything that extreme-right white racists who are committed to starting a race war would like to see more than physical attacks on churches accompanied with "BLM" graffiti.

    In Britain I'm sure they loved Ash Sarkar's appalling "we're winning" comment too.
    What colour was the Egyptian population back in 0 AD? I thought they were all Greek.
    Part genuine "Egyptian", part "Nubian". Only the top 1% were ethnically Greek.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    The Trump 2020 app is a voter surveillance tool of extraordinary power
    https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/06/21/1004228/trumps-data-hungry-invasive-app-is-a-voter-surveillance-tool-of-extraordinary-scope/
    Both presidential campaigns use apps to capture data, but Trump's asks to scoop up your identity, your location, and control of your phone's Bluetooth function....
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