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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Johnson’s big gamble – setting a time table for the lockdown r

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  • I still think we're going out of lockdown too early - but I hope I'm wrong
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    Doubling the distance more than doubles the cost as in many cases it means four times the area.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    So every PB Tory on here right now is pleased with Starmers response.

    Fantastic
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    RobD said:

    "Use common sense" should replace "Stay alert" as the catchphrase.

    With *THIS* government??????
    What has the government got to do with your common sense?
    That’s jut a beautiful line, although I’m not sure whether you meant it quite the way it comes across.

    Could have been worse, you could have left out ‘your’...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Guernsey going to test 7 day quarantine on arrival with COVID test at Day 7 with negative test leading to release from quarantine but social distancing continuing. For passengers not in test mandatory 14 day self quarantine remains in place. Now on day 55 with no positive cases. Lockdown completely lifted except for border control. On island testing capacity U.K. equivalent of 400,000 a day.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Statues, though. Statues.
    Generally, it's the right waging war against cultural change, with statues and stuff.
    Generally, it's the left that is driving cultural change, and, in the long run, winning the cultural wars.
    I thought it was an odd comment from Ayesha Hazarika on the podacst last week that the Left doesn't win culture wars. Evidence would suggest that they've had a lot of success over the last three decades.

    The problem, of course, is that they don't think that the war is ever won.
    Will that war ever end? Will there ever be a stable end state? Or will cultural evolution continue until the last human being dies?
    Society is always evolving. The internet has been revolutionary, for example. How we manage that is up for debate.

    But certain things probably won’t change. Paedophilia, for example, is unlikely to be viewed in anything other than a very negative light. That didn’t stop some nutcases arguing otherwise.

    The issue with BLM is that it’s an American thing. Quite how it’s relevant to the UK, I don’t know. And I think that’s what’s wound up a lot of people.
    I don't think it's fair to say there is no relevance to the UK, there is a large aspect of UK society that is still racist. Look at the top of any company or the civil service and you will see the same old white male faces cloned thousands of times. There is a glass ceiling in this country, especially in the public sector for people who look like me that doesn't exist for people who don't. I'm not saying that the ceiling isn't much higher here than in the US and we are successfully raising it, but to pretend it doesn't exist helps no one.
    But that’s different to the issue in America of racist police officers murdering black people (not Asian and not Hispanic people). Okay, I’m sure the issue you’ve raised applies there too, but that’s not the main issue as far as I can tell.

    Also, you’re not black. Those wind up merchants flying that banner over the Etihad should have written Asian lives matter. That would have caused the media to have total malfunction.

    To go back to your point about glass ceilings, as a civil servant, I know my place and that place is not above where I am now. Perhaps race (and gender) are issues, but I think personality is a much bigger issue. I’m not the right type of person. I’m too independent in terms of how I think. I can’t not call out bullshit. Those are not qualities desired for the senior civil service.
    "So, I see your strengths, your CV speaks loud and clear on that. But let me throw you a curveball, ask a question that people can find difficult. What are your main weaknesses, would you say? Come on, be honest now."

    "Hmm, well I'm a very independent thinker. That's the first thing that springs to mind. Maybe a bit too independent for some."

    "OK. Anything else?"

    "Yeah. I cannot, try as I might, tolerate bullshit. I just have to call it out."

    "You have the job young man! Start Monday?"

    :smile:
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    In an important announcement of this nature trust the irrelevant Lib Dems in the form of Ed Davey asks when the public enquiry will be commissioned
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Very positive and constructive response from Starmer. Looks like he's learning in his job, especially his shambolic PMQs last week - there is no need to be critical every single week.

    So last week was good then, as we have to take about 90% off your hyperbolic nonsense
    No, he was poor last week - if you weren't so partisan yourself you would admit that
  • In an important announcement of this nature trust the irrelevant Lib Dems in the form of Ed Davey asks when the public enquiry will be commissioned

    I would not be surprised to see Labour on over 40% just because of Lib Dem votes alone.

    Below 5% seems completely possible.
  • Floater said:

    Very positive and constructive response from Starmer. Looks like he's learning in his job, especially his shambolic PMQs last week - there is no need to be critical every single week.

    So last week was good then, as we have to take about 90% off your hyperbolic nonsense
    No, he was poor last week - if you weren't so partisan yourself you would admit that
    I thought he was fine.

    I don't claim to be impartial, a lot of PB Tories however do
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    I still think we're going out of lockdown too early - but I hope I'm wrong

    Economic imperatives, my dear fellow, economic imperatives.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    So every PB Tory on here right now is pleased with Starmers response.

    Fantastic

    In the long dreary Corbyn years we frequently wished for an effective constructive opposition.

    Don’t remember you doing the same.....
  • I still think we're going out of lockdown too early - but I hope I'm wrong

    Economic imperatives, my dear fellow, economic imperatives.
    I get the balance and why it's being done, I really do get that. I just think it's too early.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    So every PB Tory on here right now is pleased with Starmers response.

    Fantastic

    That is probably a good thing. It means he's much more likely to win a bunch of votes from the centre.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    So every PB Tory on here right now is pleased with Starmers response.

    Fantastic

    Indeed that's what makes Starmer so dangerous an opponent. First step to getting people to vote for you is to get them to agree with you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Statues, though. Statues.
    Generally, it's the right waging war against cultural change, with statues and stuff.
    Generally, it's the left that is driving cultural change, and, in the long run, winning the cultural wars.
    I thought it was an odd comment from Ayesha Hazarika on the podacst last week that the Left doesn't win culture wars. Evidence would suggest that they've had a lot of success over the last three decades.

    The problem, of course, is that they don't think that the war is ever won.
    Will that war ever end? Will there ever be a stable end state? Or will cultural evolution continue until the last human being dies?
    Society is always evolving. The internet has been revolutionary, for example. How we manage that is up for debate.

    But certain things probably won’t change. Paedophilia, for example, is unlikely to be viewed in anything other than a very negative light. That didn’t stop some nutcases arguing otherwise.

    The issue with BLM is that it’s an American thing. Quite how it’s relevant to the UK, I don’t know. And I think that’s what’s wound up a lot of people.
    I don't think it's fair to say there is no relevance to the UK, there is a large aspect of UK society that is still racist. Look at the top of any company or the civil service and you will see the same old white male faces cloned thousands of times. There is a glass ceiling in this country, especially in the public sector for people who look like me that doesn't exist for people who don't. I'm not saying that the ceiling isn't much higher here than in the US and we are successfully raising it, but to pretend it doesn't exist helps no one.
    But that’s different to the issue in America of racist police officers murdering black people (not Asian and not Hispanic people). Okay, I’m sure the issue you’ve raised applies there too, but that’s not the main issue as far as I can tell.

    Also, you’re not black. Those wind up merchants flying that banner over the Etihad should have written Asian lives matter. That would have caused the media to have total malfunction.

    To go back to your point about glass ceilings, as a civil servant, I know my place and that place is not above where I am now. Perhaps race (and gender) are issues, but I think personality is a much bigger issue. I’m not the right type of person. I’m too independent in terms of how I think. I can’t not call out bullshit. Those are not qualities desired for the senior civil service.
    "So, I see your strengths, your CV speaks loud and clear on that. But let me throw you a curveball, ask a question that people can find difficult. What are your main weaknesses, would you say? Come on, be honest now."

    "Hmm, well I'm a very independent thinker. That's the first thing that springs to mind. Maybe a bit too independent for some."

    "OK. Anything else?"

    "Yeah. I cannot, try as I might, tolerate bullshit. I just have to call it out."

    "You have the job young man! Start Monday?"

    :smile:
    The correct answer in a teaching interview when asked what your weakness is, is to say you spend too much time planning because you are overly concerned with the students doing well.

    Although in my very first job I tipped the scale by saying I was obsessed with accurate spelling, punctuation and grammar.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Both are waging it but the big difference is the cause. The generals of the Left are doing it to change society. The generals of the Right are doing it to win "silent majority" elections under false pretences.
    The amazing thing is that I think you actually believe this dangerous nonsense. Where was 'the spiteful vandalism of places of worship' in your explanation that the real aim of Woke was to reduce racism in personal interactions? This kind of wanton wrecking will achieve the exact opposite, if anything.
    There are things said and done in the name of movements I support - e.g. "blacklivesmatter" and "metoo" and "timesup" which I find OTT and counterproductive. This will almost always be the case. You don't get powerful moments of sweeping change without excesses and pendulum overswing. It just doesn't work like that. So I need to weigh it up in the round and ask myself if I see the movement as a net plus or not. If it's the latter I will cease to support it. Otherwise, I keep rooting for it and that is the case for the ones I've referenced here.
    If fascists start violence against ethnic minorities and against those in the ethnic majority who oppose prejudice and discrimination towards ethnic minorities, it is no excuse for those who consider themselves to be conservative and not in the slightest bit fascist (with a bit of "Enoch was right" behind closed doors) to assert that the left were asking for this, nor to point out that such-and-such a figure on the left said something stupid about ethnicity or about anything else. There are fascists who are very serious about pushing things towards race war, and they have made quite a lot of headway already away from media headlines - witness the kinds of view that are often expressed by British soldiers on Arrse.co.uk. Meanwhile Stephen Bannon recommends that people read his beloved race-war novel "The Camp of the Saints" by Jean Raspail. He'd probably recommend "The Turner Diaries" if he could get away with it.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    In an important announcement of this nature trust the irrelevant Lib Dems in the form of Ed Davey asks when the public enquiry will be commissioned

    I would not be surprised to see Labour on over 40% just because of Lib Dem votes alone.

    Below 5% seems completely possible.
    We need the LibDems to take Tory seats in the south west. Reversing Cammo's 2015 gains.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    HYUFD said:
    Surely Green Pastures will have to be banned.
  • In an important announcement of this nature trust the irrelevant Lib Dems in the form of Ed Davey asks when the public enquiry will be commissioned

    I would not be surprised to see Labour on over 40% just because of Lib Dem votes alone.

    Below 5% seems completely possible.
    We need the LibDems to take Tory seats in the south west. Reversing Cammo's 2015 gains.
    I know that's what we need - but I don't think it's likely to happen
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    (BBC)
    World number one tennis champion Novak Djokovic has tested positive for coronavirus.
    He is the latest tennis star to report an infection after playing at his Adria Tour event.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    In an important announcement of this nature trust the irrelevant Lib Dems in the form of Ed Davey asks when the public enquiry will be commissioned

    I would not be surprised to see Labour on over 40% just because of Lib Dem votes alone.

    Below 5% seems completely possible.
    We need the LibDems to take Tory seats in the south west. Reversing Cammo's 2015 gains.
    I know that's what we need - but I don't think it's likely to happen
    Perhaps you vill be surprised.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Nigelb said:

    (BBC)
    World number one tennis champion Novak Djokovic has tested positive for coronavirus.
    He is the latest tennis star to report an infection after playing at his Adria Tour event.

    Absolutely pillocks...

    Dimitrov even participated in a pickup basketball game on Thursday with Djokovic and other tennis players.

    https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/06/grigor-dimitrov-novak-djokovic-coronavirus-basketball-adria-tour
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited June 2020
    Voting going well in America, as always.

    https://twitter.com/KristenClarkeJD/status/1275400803549880320?s=19

    New York fucking it up

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    MaxPB said:

    So every PB Tory on here right now is pleased with Starmers response.

    Fantastic

    That is probably a good thing. It means he's much more likely to win a bunch of votes from the centre.
    Buy the Greens
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Interesting stats...

    BAME students make up one-fifth of new Oxford undergraduates
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/23/bame-students-make-up-one-fifth-of-new-oxford-undergraduates
    By comparison, in 2017, BAME students made up 26.2% of students at all UK universities. Widening access programmes have also resulted in an increase in the proportion of black students gaining places at Oxford, from 2.6% in 2018 to 3.1% last year, but the data shows many colleges still admitting few black students....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The names and addresses for pubs should be a laugh. I am often away from my address for prolonged periods and it often takes a while before letters and mail catch up with me.

    At the same time, I usually use an email for signing up for stuff or services that demand an email and I only check that mailbox periodically. If they demand an email that is the one they will get because I am not handing my usual email out to a pub chain on the door so they can either lose the list or give it to spammers or use it for their own campaigns.

    I presume that they will all be made aware of their legal responsibilities regarding data protection, personal data and GDPR?

    Those with lawyers for mothers will. 🙂

    This may be easier for pubs with regular clients: Daughter knows pretty much everyone who comes in and while it will be a pain having to write down everyone’s names and a contact number so be it.

    Any app cannot be made compulsory because the internet is simply not strong enough here to allow everyone to use it - whether for ordering drinks or anything else.

    Only those pubs which have already been preparing will be ready to open on the 4th. Not every pub around here will be doing so. Daughter is. She is going to give it until no later than September to see if she can make it but is going to give it her best shot.

    She’s got the PPE for staff. Incidentally she said that wearing masks for hours in a hot kitchen is a nightmare.
    Hand sanitizers at entrances / exits / loos.
    Screen at the bar.
    Tables 2 metres apart outside and the boules playing area used for tables.
    Village hall and local firm are lending/building her a temporary gazebo so that she can have more covered tables.
    Outside heaters.
    Alcohol off licence for those wanting to drink on the green.
    Lots of lovely new hanging baskets and colourful flowers (courtesy of Mum and provided the marauding lambs don’t eat them first).
    Everything is being cleaned to within an inch of its life.

    Just pray that Boris does not come up with some daft rules and for good weather for the next 3 months!
    On the PPE in kitchens - this kind of thing was why I was asking Foxy about the usage of non-disposable masks with a belt air-pump.

    People use them in welding - the forced air means that they, effectively, have built in air-conditioning.
    Yes they are quite comfortable, the ICU teams report. The problem is communication as the wearer is rendered deaf. ICU has its own language of hand signals now.
    If I were in charge of education (and you should all be thankful that I am not) I would make British Sign Language a compulsory part of the curriculum, at least enough to be able to conduct a simple conversation. There are a huge number of times in crowed or noisy places where it would be really helpful to be able to say something quickly and unambiguously.
    Not to mention the social inclusion benefits for those deaf people who use BSL.
    The lad Rashford ahead of the game again.

    'Rashford learns sign language for poetry competition'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/51747432
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does anyone know what "mitigation measures" they are advising?
    Lots of details to be sent to businesses and generally announced
    It just sounded as though the public were being recommended to take mitigation measures, so I wondered if anyone knew what they were.
    Not going to the pub!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Both are waging it but the big difference is the cause. The generals of the Left are doing it to change society. The generals of the Right are doing it to win "silent majority" elections under false pretences.
    The amazing thing is that I think you actually believe this dangerous nonsense. Where was 'the spiteful vandalism of places of worship' in your explanation that the real aim of Woke was to reduce racism in personal interactions? This kind of wanton wrecking will achieve the exact opposite, if anything.
    There are things said and done in the name of movements I support - e.g. "blacklivesmatter" and "metoo" and "timesup" which I find OTT and counterproductive. This will almost always be the case. You don't get powerful moments of sweeping change without excesses and pendulum overswing. It just doesn't work like that. So I need to weigh it up in the round and ask myself if I see the movement as a net plus or not. If it's the latter I will cease to support it. Otherwise, I keep rooting for it and that is the case for the ones I've referenced here.
    So we're back to omelettes and eggs, aren't we? What if the voters and politicians who disagree with you decide to take an 'omelettes and eggs' approach when it comes to preventing this wonderful 'sweeping change'? Hostility and entrenchment on both sides - an outcome as predictable as it is corrosive.
    I think most people are capable of supporting a movement whose cause they strongly approve of despite it sometimes saying or doing things they would prefer it didn't. Nothing special about me in this respect.
    All right, so 'the ends justify the means' it is. At least Thucydides and Hobbes will be sardonically chuckling in their eternal rest.
    You really are determinedly absolutist. Always seeking to drag me to the far corner of the reservation. Odd in somebody whose main criticism of the Left is their absolutism.

    But look, marker down. If "BLM" turn seriously and habitually violent against people - as opposed to against statues of people - I'll be coming up off my knee.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    "Use common sense" should replace "Stay alert" as the catchphrase.

    With *THIS* government??????
    You can be as cynical as you like but sadly in it you condemn millions of lost jobs, mental health issues, and a loss of education to our children
    Better to be cynical about this collection of incompetents calling itself a government than to take your supine approach of bad mouthing Boris until he was the boss and then you are his cheerleader?

    Your behaviour strongly reminds me of Groucho Marx's comment on his principles....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    The fall in weekly excess deaths seems to have stalled:

    Week 20 - 4,385
    Week 21 - 2,348
    Week 22 - 1,653
    Week 23 - 732
    Week 24 - 559

    I guess we're getting close to even so perhaps the week ending June 12 just happened to be quite bad relative to the five-year average.

    https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1275350463920123905
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999


    I'm getting bored at the sight of people crossing the street to avoid me.

    You get used to it..
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421


    I'm getting bored at the sight of people crossing the street to avoid me.

    You get used to it..
    And how would you know that, TUD?
  • People have been avoiding me since I was 5, it's all been very easy to adjust to
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting stats...

    BAME students make up one-fifth of new Oxford undergraduates
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/23/bame-students-make-up-one-fifth-of-new-oxford-undergraduates
    By comparison, in 2017, BAME students made up 26.2% of students at all UK universities. Widening access programmes have also resulted in an increase in the proportion of black students gaining places at Oxford, from 2.6% in 2018 to 3.1% last year, but the data shows many colleges still admitting few black students....

    Does that include overseas students?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Surrey said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Both are waging it but the big difference is the cause. The generals of the Left are doing it to change society. The generals of the Right are doing it to win "silent majority" elections under false pretences.
    The amazing thing is that I think you actually believe this dangerous nonsense. Where was 'the spiteful vandalism of places of worship' in your explanation that the real aim of Woke was to reduce racism in personal interactions? This kind of wanton wrecking will achieve the exact opposite, if anything.
    There are things said and done in the name of movements I support - e.g. "blacklivesmatter" and "metoo" and "timesup" which I find OTT and counterproductive. This will almost always be the case. You don't get powerful moments of sweeping change without excesses and pendulum overswing. It just doesn't work like that. So I need to weigh it up in the round and ask myself if I see the movement as a net plus or not. If it's the latter I will cease to support it. Otherwise, I keep rooting for it and that is the case for the ones I've referenced here.
    If fascists start violence against ethnic minorities and against those in the ethnic majority who oppose prejudice and discrimination towards ethnic minorities, it is no excuse for those who consider themselves to be conservative and not in the slightest bit fascist (with a bit of "Enoch was right" behind closed doors) to assert that the left were asking for this, nor to point out that such-and-such a figure on the left said something stupid about ethnicity or about anything else. There are fascists who are very serious about pushing things towards race war, and they have made quite a lot of headway already away from media headlines - witness the kinds of view that are often expressed by British soldiers on Arrse.co.uk. Meanwhile Stephen Bannon recommends that people read his beloved race-war novel "The Camp of the Saints" by Jean Raspail. He'd probably recommend "The Turner Diaries" if he could get away with it.
    Meanwhile, we HAVE seen violence against white men from ethnic minorities the Saturday before last at Waterloo Station, and all the left wanted to talk about was the black men being better fighters, the white mens physiques and what seems to be a staged photo
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    isam said:
    It's almost as if Man made God in his own image...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting stats...

    BAME students make up one-fifth of new Oxford undergraduates
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/23/bame-students-make-up-one-fifth-of-new-oxford-undergraduates
    By comparison, in 2017, BAME students made up 26.2% of students at all UK universities. Widening access programmes have also resulted in an increase in the proportion of black students gaining places at Oxford, from 2.6% in 2018 to 3.1% last year, but the data shows many colleges still admitting few black students....

    What proportion of black students get 3 A*s and above at A-Level?

    Also, interesting careful choice of stats there from the Guardian, apples and oranges. 26% BAME, 3% BLACK....BAME of course will include the huge numbers of Chinese (I presume including the overseas ones) and Asians students.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    "Use common sense" should replace "Stay alert" as the catchphrase.

    With *THIS* government??????
    You can be as cynical as you like but sadly in it you condemn millions of lost jobs, mental health issues, and a loss of education to our children
    Better to be cynical about this collection of incompetents calling itself a government than to take your supine approach of bad mouthing Boris until he was the boss and then you are his cheerleader?

    Your behaviour strongly reminds me of Groucho Marx's comment on his principles....
    With respect that is utter nonsense

    I have been highly critical of Boris in many posts which you seem to ignore and fall back on the 'fanbois' claptrap
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    NHS England hospital data out

    Headline - 46
    7 Day - 43
    Yesterday - 6

    image
    image
    image
    image
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    isam said:
    It's almost as if Man made God in his own image...
    Agreed 100%
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    MaxPB said:

    So every PB Tory on here right now is pleased with Starmers response.

    Fantastic

    That is probably a good thing. It means he's much more likely to win a bunch of votes from the centre.
    None of the aforesaid PB Toties will vote any differently.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting stats...

    BAME students make up one-fifth of new Oxford undergraduates
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/23/bame-students-make-up-one-fifth-of-new-oxford-undergraduates
    By comparison, in 2017, BAME students made up 26.2% of students at all UK universities. Widening access programmes have also resulted in an increase in the proportion of black students gaining places at Oxford, from 2.6% in 2018 to 3.1% last year, but the data shows many colleges still admitting few black students....

    Given that black people are around 4% of the population, its surely not that surprising there are not that many at Oxford.

    There are not that many in Britain, relatively speaking. This is not America.

    If BAME students are 20% of Oxford's intake, then they are punching above their weight again, given Britain is 85% white.

    There really is not that much to see here
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    MaxPB said:

    So every PB Tory on here right now is pleased with Starmers response.

    Fantastic

    That is probably a good thing. It means he's much more likely to win a bunch of votes from the centre.
    None of the aforesaid PB Toties will vote any differently.
    But millions who voted for the Tories in 2019 may do. That's the danger.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Floater said:

    Very positive and constructive response from Starmer. Looks like he's learning in his job, especially his shambolic PMQs last week - there is no need to be critical every single week.

    So last week was good then, as we have to take about 90% off your hyperbolic nonsense
    No, he was poor last week - if you weren't so partisan yourself you would admit that
    I thought he was fine.

    I don't claim to be impartial, a lot of PB Tories however do
    Over your brief time with us I can remember several of your claims
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    So every PB Tory on here right now is pleased with Starmers response.

    Fantastic

    Indeed that's what makes Starmer so dangerous an opponent. First step to getting people to vote for you is to get them to agree with you.
    Starmer is playing to win.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    NHS England hospital data out

    Headline - 46
    7 Day - 43
    Yesterday - 6

    image
    image
    image
    image

    I know no one usually responds to these daily posts, but can I just say how much I appreciate them? They give me hope.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    So every PB Tory on here right now is pleased with Starmers response.

    Fantastic

    Indeed that's what makes Starmer so dangerous an opponent. First step to getting people to vote for you is to get them to agree with you.
    Starmer is playing to win.
    Not what Agent John wants. John is happier with the Tories winning than with Labour playing to win.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting stats...

    BAME students make up one-fifth of new Oxford undergraduates
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/23/bame-students-make-up-one-fifth-of-new-oxford-undergraduates
    By comparison, in 2017, BAME students made up 26.2% of students at all UK universities. Widening access programmes have also resulted in an increase in the proportion of black students gaining places at Oxford, from 2.6% in 2018 to 3.1% last year, but the data shows many colleges still admitting few black students....

    Given that black people are around 4% of the population, its surely not that surprising there are not that many at Oxford.

    There are not that many in Britain, relatively speaking. This is not America.

    If BAME students are 20% of Oxford's intake, then they are punching above their weight again, given Britain is 85% white.

    There really is not that much to see here
    Is this domestic students only? Otherwise those from Asia would inflate that number.
  • HYUFD said:

    People criticise the government but I think they have done an amazing job in negotiating with Covid-19 to get it to agree limit its infection radius to 1 metres instead of 2 metres for the sake of the economy.

    Are you an ex-Tory these days?
    I resigned from the party last autumn.

    Not regretting it.

    Hopefully one day it will come back to sanity but whilst Ken Clarke isn’t good enough for the party then it neither am I.
    I have never been a party member but my sympathies lie in much the same direction as yours. I will not be supporting Boris's UKIP-lite
    Did you support Theresa May's Tories?

    I don't like UKIP but I'd rather be UKIP-lite than BNP-lite.
    I did not support Mrs May. She was clueless. Cameron was the last Tory leader to get my support.
    That's entirely reasonable.

    People who object to Boris but supported May leave me completely confused.
    19% of 2017 Tory voters who also backed Remain voted LD in 2019 so there are a few

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election
    Well as one of the 19% I'm very happy to clarify that before the June 2017 election I supported TMay as I believed she would take a pragmatic approach in leading the country following the Brexit vote. I was a full member then and even delivered leaflets and canvassed with my EU born wife.

    Following the election however TMay was forced to follow the line of the headbangers in the parliamentary party and I didn't want to be associated with what was being announced nor could I seriously defend what the government was doing. My membership came up in early 2018 after it was announced the UK would be leaving the single market and the customs union and my view was I could spend the money and the time far more effectively literally anywhere else.

    I still wouldn't wish to be associated with what the UK government is doing and certainly couldn't defend its actions so I won't vote for them and I certainly wouldn't join their party - its a political party not a faith and they don't own my vote.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    MaxPB said:

    So every PB Tory on here right now is pleased with Starmers response.

    Fantastic

    That is probably a good thing. It means he's much more likely to win a bunch of votes from the centre.
    None of the aforesaid PB Toties will vote any differently.
    So if even those people are somewhat impressed, surely that bodes well for the truly floating voters?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Nigelb said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Trump 2020 app is a voter surveillance tool of extraordinary power
    https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/06/21/1004228/trumps-data-hungry-invasive-app-is-a-voter-surveillance-tool-of-extraordinary-scope/
    Both presidential campaigns use apps to capture data, but Trump's asks to scoop up your identity, your location, and control of your phone's Bluetooth function....

    Will he be able to keep and use this data post election as a private citizen, do you know?
    Not if he's in jail.
    Which is the preferred outcome obviously.

    Still, we saw with "Bridger" how a crime boss can continue to run his empire from behind bars - hard as it is to picture Donald Trump as Noel Coward.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    1m+ means two groups. Group 1 think 2m is too close. Group 2 think there isn't distancing any more. There are going to be a whole load of angry arguments out there in the real world. We had to accept either that 2m distancing was required with all that means, or drop it to 1m. As usual Shagger has gone for some wooly compomise which will mean different things to different people.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    ydoethur said:


    I'm getting bored at the sight of people crossing the street to avoid me.

    You get used to it..
    And how would you know that, TUD?
    You wear one outfit for a joke and you're tarred for ever..


  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Does anyone know what "mitigation measures" they are advising?
    Lots of details to be sent to businesses and generally announced
    It just sounded as though the public were being recommended to take mitigation measures, so I wondered if anyone knew what they were.
    There are many and impossible to detail in a speech
    Which part of "I wondered if anyone knew what they were" are you having trouble understanding?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    NHS England hospital data out

    Headline - 46
    7 Day - 43
    Yesterday - 6

    image
    image
    image
    image

    I know no one usually responds to these daily posts, but can I just say how much I appreciate them? They give me hope.
    It's not about hope.

    Think of it more as a reality check.

    This *happened* - not because I wish it. Not because it should happen. It just is.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    1m+ means two groups. Group 1 think 2m is too close. Group 2 think there isn't distancing any more. There are going to be a whole load of angry arguments out there in the real world. We had to accept either that 2m distancing was required with all that means, or drop it to 1m. As usual Shagger has gone for some wooly compomise which will mean different things to different people.

    And is common sense
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Both are waging it but the big difference is the cause. The generals of the Left are doing it to change society. The generals of the Right are doing it to win "silent majority" elections under false pretences.
    The amazing thing is that I think you actually believe this dangerous nonsense. Where was 'the spiteful vandalism of places of worship' in your explanation that the real aim of Woke was to reduce racism in personal interactions? This kind of wanton wrecking will achieve the exact opposite, if anything.
    There are things said and done in the name of movements I support - e.g. "blacklivesmatter" and "metoo" and "timesup" which I find OTT and counterproductive. This will almost always be the case. You don't get powerful moments of sweeping change without excesses and pendulum overswing. It just doesn't work like that. So I need to weigh it up in the round and ask myself if I see the movement as a net plus or not. If it's the latter I will cease to support it. Otherwise, I keep rooting for it and that is the case for the ones I've referenced here.
    So we're back to omelettes and eggs, aren't we? What if the voters and politicians who disagree with you decide to take an 'omelettes and eggs' approach when it comes to preventing this wonderful 'sweeping change'? Hostility and entrenchment on both sides - an outcome as predictable as it is corrosive.
    What about it?

    Nothings ever been static and never should be. If we want progress we need to change.

    I couldn't care less if my opponents become entrenched - if I don't stand for what I believe in then they get what they want anyway so what's the difference?

    Your argument is like suggesting pre-referendum that Brexiteers should have just shut up about Europe as otherwise they would provoke Remainers into supporting Europe more. Its illogical.
    Well, to be fair that did happen. Just after the referendum.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    I think very sensible gyms not reopening, but I bet a lot of people will be pissed about that. And the gym themselves, how long can they continue with no trade?
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Both are waging it but the big difference is the cause. The generals of the Left are doing it to change society. The generals of the Right are doing it to win "silent majority" elections under false pretences.
    The amazing thing is that I think you actually believe this dangerous nonsense. Where was 'the spiteful vandalism of places of worship' in your explanation that the real aim of Woke was to reduce racism in personal interactions? This kind of wanton wrecking will achieve the exact opposite, if anything.
    There are things said and done in the name of movements I support - e.g. "blacklivesmatter" and "metoo" and "timesup" which I find OTT and counterproductive. This will almost always be the case. You don't get powerful moments of sweeping change without excesses and pendulum overswing. It just doesn't work like that. So I need to weigh it up in the round and ask myself if I see the movement as a net plus or not. If it's the latter I will cease to support it. Otherwise, I keep rooting for it and that is the case for the ones I've referenced here.
    So we're back to omelettes and eggs, aren't we? What if the voters and politicians who disagree with you decide to take an 'omelettes and eggs' approach when it comes to preventing this wonderful 'sweeping change'? Hostility and entrenchment on both sides - an outcome as predictable as it is corrosive.
    I think most people are capable of supporting a movement whose cause they strongly approve of despite it sometimes saying or doing things they would prefer it didn't. Nothing special about me in this respect.
    All right, so 'the ends justify the means' it is. At least Thucydides and Hobbes will be sardonically chuckling in their eternal rest.
    You really are determinedly absolutist. Always seeking to drag me to the far corner of the reservation. Odd in somebody whose main criticism of the Left is their absolutism.

    But look, marker down. If "BLM" turn seriously and habitually violent against people - as opposed to against statues of people - I'll be coming up off my knee.
    I've got respect for the knee thing and in particular its reference to Mexico 1968 but it may soon have outlived its usefulness and the idea of pressuring anybody to do it is not good at all. Antifascists have to force themselves to see things from the fascist point of view. Imagine a symbolic racist response to BLM etc. that surpasses the "OK" signal for "WP" ("White Power"), and "Pepe" too, and captures the "silent" "majority". It could happen.

    image
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    1m+ means two groups. Group 1 think 2m is too close. Group 2 think there isn't distancing any more. There are going to be a whole load of angry arguments out there in the real world. We had to accept either that 2m distancing was required with all that means, or drop it to 1m. As usual Shagger has gone for some wooly compomise which will mean different things to different people.

    Why would it make anyone angry? If you aren't comfortable going into an establishment where you can't stay 2m apart, don't.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Both are waging it but the big difference is the cause. The generals of the Left are doing it to change society. The generals of the Right are doing it to win "silent majority" elections under false pretences.
    The amazing thing is that I think you actually believe this dangerous nonsense. Where was 'the spiteful vandalism of places of worship' in your explanation that the real aim of Woke was to reduce racism in personal interactions? This kind of wanton wrecking will achieve the exact opposite, if anything.
    There are things said and done in the name of movements I support - e.g. "blacklivesmatter" and "metoo" and "timesup" which I find OTT and counterproductive. This will almost always be the case. You don't get powerful moments of sweeping change without excesses and pendulum overswing. It just doesn't work like that. So I need to weigh it up in the round and ask myself if I see the movement as a net plus or not. If it's the latter I will cease to support it. Otherwise, I keep rooting for it and that is the case for the ones I've referenced here.
    So we're back to omelettes and eggs, aren't we? What if the voters and politicians who disagree with you decide to take an 'omelettes and eggs' approach when it comes to preventing this wonderful 'sweeping change'? Hostility and entrenchment on both sides - an outcome as predictable as it is corrosive.
    What about it?

    Nothings ever been static and never should be. If we want progress we need to change.

    I couldn't care less if my opponents become entrenched - if I don't stand for what I believe in then they get what they want anyway so what's the difference?

    Your argument is like suggesting pre-referendum that Brexiteers should have just shut up about Europe as otherwise they would provoke Remainers into supporting Europe more. Its illogical.
    Well, to be fair that did happen. Just after the referendum.
    Well indeed which was too late, those advocating change had already won.

    If you want change then don't worry obsessively about your opposition, campaign for what you believe in and make the case for it.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    NHS England hospital data out

    Headline - 46
    7 Day - 43
    Yesterday - 6

    image
    image
    image
    image

    I know no one usually responds to these daily posts, but can I just say how much I appreciate them? They give me hope.
    It's not about hope.

    Think of it more as a reality check.

    This *happened* - not because I wish it. Not because it should happen. It just is.
    Oh, I realize that. But it's also good to know that what has actually happened in recent weeks is very positive - so far.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited June 2020
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Very positive and constructive response from Starmer. Looks like he's learning in his job, especially his shambolic PMQs last week - there is no need to be critical every single week.

    So last week was good then, as we have to take about 90% off your hyperbolic nonsense
    No, he was poor last week - if you weren't so partisan yourself you would admit that
    I thought he was fine.

    I don't claim to be impartial, a lot of PB Tories however do
    Over your brief time with us I can remember several of your claims
    Over my brief memory of you, I can recall you being REALLY, very boring.

    Keep up the good work, makes it so easy to tell what to ignore
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    ydoethur said:


    I'm getting bored at the sight of people crossing the street to avoid me.

    You get used to it..
    And how would you know that, TUD?
    You wear one outfit for a joke and you're tarred for ever..


    Very Bob Servant
  • Do the Lib Dems have anyone talented? Davey seems the least bad but that's all I can really call him
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    I see poundshop Churchill has been at again this morning, blathering on about 'victory'.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited June 2020
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting stats...

    BAME students make up one-fifth of new Oxford undergraduates
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/23/bame-students-make-up-one-fifth-of-new-oxford-undergraduates
    By comparison, in 2017, BAME students made up 26.2% of students at all UK universities. Widening access programmes have also resulted in an increase in the proportion of black students gaining places at Oxford, from 2.6% in 2018 to 3.1% last year, but the data shows many colleges still admitting few black students....

    Does that include overseas students?
    I would imagine so.

    The interesting part was the change in numbers, rather than the absolute levels (which as suggested don't well correlate with UK demographics owing to the numbers of overseas students).
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Do the Lib Dems have anyone talented? Davey seems the least bad but that's all I can really call him

    Aren't you a Layla fan then? :smiley:
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Isnt he a vaccine denier?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Hope they didn't need super healthy lungs in their profession.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:


    I'm getting bored at the sight of people crossing the street to avoid me.

    You get used to it..
    And how would you know that, TUD?
    You wear one outfit for a joke and you're tarred for ever..


    That post is beyond saltire.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting stats...

    BAME students make up one-fifth of new Oxford undergraduates
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/23/bame-students-make-up-one-fifth-of-new-oxford-undergraduates
    By comparison, in 2017, BAME students made up 26.2% of students at all UK universities. Widening access programmes have also resulted in an increase in the proportion of black students gaining places at Oxford, from 2.6% in 2018 to 3.1% last year, but the data shows many colleges still admitting few black students....

    Does that include overseas students?
    I would imagine so.
    British undergraduates according to the article.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    nichomar said:

    Isnt he a vaccine denier?
    Yep, said he'd even refuse a Corona vaccine if it became available. Somewhat academic now.

    Tim, formerly of this parish, is on the case.

    https://twitter.com/ExStrategist/status/1275405885595176961?s=20
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    ClippP said:

    First. Johnson is a chancer and a gambler, and in this case he is gambling with all of our lives - all for the sake of a quick headline, and an opportunity to boost his drooping poll ratings.

    He is no more to be trusted than Trump is.

    It's primarily because of the economy and, yes, pressure from the Red Tops.

    When the second wave hits, which it will, he's going to take a hammering.

    Out in the High Streets there is already no social distancing, no hand sanitisers, no temperature checkers, no contact tracing and very few face masks.

    A second wave is coming, probably around mid-July.
    It’s not quite like that - I’d guess that a large majority of the population is taking precautions of varying degrees (nowhere near that wearing masks), but the rest have, or are about to, give up bothering.
    But yes, a second wave looks probable; perhaps not quite as soon as that.
    Where I am in Spain lockdown is over but the majority of people I see are being very careful and responsible. Masks are obligatory in all shops and other public spaces - you don't get into a supermarket wothout masks/gloves and sanitisers are everywhere. The level of compliance is very high. Maybe a relic of the more authoritarian past of the country but it is very re-assuring. TBF I live in a relatively quiet area near the coast yes but with only modest numbers of tourists - our beaches are failry quiet other than in August and then nothing like the more famous costas.
    By and large the great British public aren't being arsed about any of that, 20% with masks inside shops if you are lucky. Once the pubs open that's it I reckon

    I suspect we are going to have the worst 2nd wave in Europe and the summer will be full of stories of stupid Brits being fined all over the European holiday spots for refusing to follow guidelines over masks etc etc.

    The US and UK do seem to have the highest numpty count in the civilised world, god knows why!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    People criticise the government but I think they have done an amazing job in negotiating with Covid-19 to get it to agree limit its infection radius to 1 metres instead of 2 metres for the sake of the economy.

    Are you an ex-Tory these days?
    I resigned from the party last autumn.

    Not regretting it.

    Hopefully one day it will come back to sanity but whilst Ken Clarke isn’t good enough for the party then it neither am I.
    I have never been a party member but my sympathies lie in much the same direction as yours. I will not be supporting Boris's UKIP-lite
    Did you support Theresa May's Tories?

    I don't like UKIP but I'd rather be UKIP-lite than BNP-lite.
    I did not support Mrs May. She was clueless. Cameron was the last Tory leader to get my support.
    That's entirely reasonable.

    People who object to Boris but supported May leave me completely confused.
    19% of 2017 Tory voters who also backed Remain voted LD in 2019 so there are a few

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election
    Well as one of the 19% I'm very happy to clarify that before the June 2017 election I supported TMay as I believed she would take a pragmatic approach in leading the country following the Brexit vote. I was a full member then and even delivered leaflets and canvassed with my EU born wife.

    Following the election however TMay was forced to follow the line of the headbangers in the parliamentary party and I didn't want to be associated with what was being announced nor could I seriously defend what the government was doing. My membership came up in early 2018 after it was announced the UK would be leaving the single market and the customs union and my view was I could spend the money and the time far more effectively literally anywhere else.

    I still wouldn't wish to be associated with what the UK government is doing and certainly couldn't defend its actions so I won't vote for them and I certainly wouldn't join their party - its a political party not a faith and they don't own my vote.
    Fair enough, though 23% of 2017 Labour voters who also backed Leave voted Tory in 2019 coming the other way
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Ave_it said:

    Do the Lib Dems have anyone talented? Davey seems the least bad but that's all I can really call him

    Aren't you a Layla fan then? :smiley:
    I may be mistaken but I think he's a fan of Starmer.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    ClippP said:

    isam said:
    Not a bad idea, but better for the Churches to disappear altogether.
    Jesus is a fictional character but even if he wasn't he wouldn't have been white.
    Don´t Jews ount as white?
    No, European Jews can be white but Middle Eastern Jews tend to not be white. Middle Eastern Jews tend to have a more olive to a bit darker skin colour.

    They're not typically either white or black and if the character known as Jesus were to have been real that's surely what his ethnicity would have been.
    Apparently being white has nothing to do with skin colour.
    https://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/status/1272799813738934272
    https://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/status/1272800134267637760
    So, her objection is that Irish people in the USA are now successful rather than experiencing widespread prejudice and discrimination?

    She'd rather Asians knew their place rather than join the bourgeoisie.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Do the Lib Dems have anyone talented? Davey seems the least bad but that's all I can really call him

    Not that long ago we were asking the same question about Labour.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    .
    nichomar said:

    Isnt he a vaccine denier?
    Doing his bit for herd immunity, presumably ?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    So every PB Tory on here right now is pleased with Starmers response.

    Fantastic

    That is probably a good thing. It means he's much more likely to win a bunch of votes from the centre.
    None of the aforesaid PB Toties will vote any differently.
    So if even those people are somewhat impressed, surely that bodes well for the truly floating voters?
    They are not impressed, they are just relieved that KS isn't landing any blows on their degenerate scumbag of a leader.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting stats...

    BAME students make up one-fifth of new Oxford undergraduates
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/23/bame-students-make-up-one-fifth-of-new-oxford-undergraduates
    By comparison, in 2017, BAME students made up 26.2% of students at all UK universities. Widening access programmes have also resulted in an increase in the proportion of black students gaining places at Oxford, from 2.6% in 2018 to 3.1% last year, but the data shows many colleges still admitting few black students....

    Does that include overseas students?
    I would imagine so.
    British undergraduates according to the article.
    So white British are quite underrepresented then?
  • ydoethur said:

    Do the Lib Dems have anyone talented? Davey seems the least bad but that's all I can really call him

    Not that long ago we were asking the same question about Labour.
    It was obvious Starmer was decent though, do the Lib Dems have anyone like that?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Dura_Ace said:

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    So every PB Tory on here right now is pleased with Starmers response.

    Fantastic

    That is probably a good thing. It means he's much more likely to win a bunch of votes from the centre.
    None of the aforesaid PB Toties will vote any differently.
    So if even those people are somewhat impressed, surely that bodes well for the truly floating voters?
    They are not impressed, they are just relieved that KS isn't landing any blows on their degenerate scumbag of a leader.
    Look, you have to take the small victories.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited June 2020
    Surrey said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Both are waging it but the big difference is the cause. The generals of the Left are doing it to change society. The generals of the Right are doing it to win "silent majority" elections under false pretences.
    The amazing thing is that I think you actually believe this dangerous nonsense. Where was 'the spiteful vandalism of places of worship' in your explanation that the real aim of Woke was to reduce racism in personal interactions? This kind of wanton wrecking will achieve the exact opposite, if anything.
    There are things said and done in the name of movements I support - e.g. "blacklivesmatter" and "metoo" and "timesup" which I find OTT and counterproductive. This will almost always be the case. You don't get powerful moments of sweeping change without excesses and pendulum overswing. It just doesn't work like that. So I need to weigh it up in the round and ask myself if I see the movement as a net plus or not. If it's the latter I will cease to support it. Otherwise, I keep rooting for it and that is the case for the ones I've referenced here.
    If fascists start violence against ethnic minorities and against those in the ethnic majority who oppose prejudice and discrimination towards ethnic minorities, it is no excuse for those who consider themselves to be conservative and not in the slightest bit fascist (with a bit of "Enoch was right" behind closed doors) to assert that the left were asking for this, nor to point out that such-and-such a figure on the left said something stupid about ethnicity or about anything else. There are fascists who are very serious about pushing things towards race war, and they have made quite a lot of headway already away from media headlines - witness the kinds of view that are often expressed by British soldiers on Arrse.co.uk. Meanwhile Stephen Bannon recommends that people read his beloved race-war novel "The Camp of the Saints" by Jean Raspail. He'd probably recommend "The Turner Diaries" if he could get away with it.
    I do think this point is so important. There is no equivalence between the 2 sides of antifa or anti-racism activists and the racist cum fascist far right. The latter is wholly malign and beyond the pale. It is not (imo) a legitimate position to take. And every time the false equivalence is drawn - and it does keep being drawn including by many who ought to know better - the far right benefit. They become that tiny bit more acceptable and accepted.

    PS: Mention of Enoch Powell. I wonder how much of the (to me) utterly ludicrous upset and anger about too much "taking the knee" is driven by a deep and primitive fear in people of Powell's warning coming to pass, of our society reaching a place where "the black man holds the whip hand over the white man." Is that in there somewhere?

    Anyone here prepared to admit to this?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited June 2020

    ydoethur said:

    Do the Lib Dems have anyone talented? Davey seems the least bad but that's all I can really call him

    Not that long ago we were asking the same question about Labour.
    It was obvious Starmer was decent though, do the Lib Dems have anyone like that?
    That was far from obvious. Because I didn’t know enough about him.

    Same answer for the LibDems.

    Edit - you might be a bit young to remember that there were the same questions in 2005 about the Tories - ‘if Howard, Letwin and Davis are the best the Tories can do, how useless are they?’

    Then a young, more or less unknown MP called David Cameron popped up.

    And the rest is history.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Surrey said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Both are waging it but the big difference is the cause. The generals of the Left are doing it to change society. The generals of the Right are doing it to win "silent majority" elections under false pretences.
    The amazing thing is that I think you actually believe this dangerous nonsense. Where was 'the spiteful vandalism of places of worship' in your explanation that the real aim of Woke was to reduce racism in personal interactions? This kind of wanton wrecking will achieve the exact opposite, if anything.
    There are things said and done in the name of movements I support - e.g. "blacklivesmatter" and "metoo" and "timesup" which I find OTT and counterproductive. This will almost always be the case. You don't get powerful moments of sweeping change without excesses and pendulum overswing. It just doesn't work like that. So I need to weigh it up in the round and ask myself if I see the movement as a net plus or not. If it's the latter I will cease to support it. Otherwise, I keep rooting for it and that is the case for the ones I've referenced here.
    So we're back to omelettes and eggs, aren't we? What if the voters and politicians who disagree with you decide to take an 'omelettes and eggs' approach when it comes to preventing this wonderful 'sweeping change'? Hostility and entrenchment on both sides - an outcome as predictable as it is corrosive.
    I think most people are capable of supporting a movement whose cause they strongly approve of despite it sometimes saying or doing things they would prefer it didn't. Nothing special about me in this respect.
    All right, so 'the ends justify the means' it is. At least Thucydides and Hobbes will be sardonically chuckling in their eternal rest.
    You really are determinedly absolutist. Always seeking to drag me to the far corner of the reservation. Odd in somebody whose main criticism of the Left is their absolutism.

    But look, marker down. If "BLM" turn seriously and habitually violent against people - as opposed to against statues of people - I'll be coming up off my knee.
    I've got respect for the knee thing and in particular its reference to Mexico 1968 but it may soon have outlived its usefulness and the idea of pressuring anybody to do it is not good at all. Antifascists have to force themselves to see things from the fascist point of view. Imagine a symbolic racist response to BLM etc. that surpasses the "OK" signal for "WP" ("White Power"), and "Pepe" too, and captures the "silent" "majority". It could happen.

    image
    Imagine (only slightly fanciful this) you slipped into a coma last year, woke up next year, went back to work, and then made that gesture (innocently) in response to a colleague doing a great job.

    You could lose your job, and you'd be completely baffled.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    People criticise the government but I think they have done an amazing job in negotiating with Covid-19 to get it to agree limit its infection radius to 1 metres instead of 2 metres for the sake of the economy.

    Are you an ex-Tory these days?
    I resigned from the party last autumn.

    Not regretting it.

    Hopefully one day it will come back to sanity but whilst Ken Clarke isn’t good enough for the party then it neither am I.
    I have never been a party member but my sympathies lie in much the same direction as yours. I will not be supporting Boris's UKIP-lite
    Did you support Theresa May's Tories?

    I don't like UKIP but I'd rather be UKIP-lite than BNP-lite.
    I did not support Mrs May. She was clueless. Cameron was the last Tory leader to get my support.
    That's entirely reasonable.

    People who object to Boris but supported May leave me completely confused.
    19% of 2017 Tory voters who also backed Remain voted LD in 2019 so there are a few

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election
    Well as one of the 19% I'm very happy to clarify that before the June 2017 election I supported TMay as I believed she would take a pragmatic approach in leading the country following the Brexit vote. I was a full member then and even delivered leaflets and canvassed with my EU born wife.

    Following the election however TMay was forced to follow the line of the headbangers in the parliamentary party and I didn't want to be associated with what was being announced nor could I seriously defend what the government was doing. My membership came up in early 2018 after it was announced the UK would be leaving the single market and the customs union and my view was I could spend the money and the time far more effectively literally anywhere else.

    I still wouldn't wish to be associated with what the UK government is doing and certainly couldn't defend its actions so I won't vote for them and I certainly wouldn't join their party - its a political party not a faith and they don't own my vote.
    Fair enough, though 23% of 2017 Labour voters who also backed Leave voted Tory in 2019 coming the other way
    I wonder which cohort is likely to return to its previous voting habits next time around?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    ClippP said:

    isam said:
    Not a bad idea, but better for the Churches to disappear altogether.
    Jesus is a fictional character but even if he wasn't he wouldn't have been white.
    Don´t Jews ount as white?
    No, European Jews can be white but Middle Eastern Jews tend to not be white. Middle Eastern Jews tend to have a more olive to a bit darker skin colour.

    They're not typically either white or black and if the character known as Jesus were to have been real that's surely what his ethnicity would have been.
    Apparently being white has nothing to do with skin colour.
    https://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/status/1272799813738934272
    https://twitter.com/PriyamvadaGopal/status/1272800134267637760
    So, her objection is that Irish people in the USA are now successful rather than experiencing widespread prejudice and discrimination?

    She'd rather Asians knew their place rather than join the bourgeoisie.
    She is one of the most dogmatic of the academic Wokeists. Even Cambridge finds her less than congenial...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting stats...

    BAME students make up one-fifth of new Oxford undergraduates
    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/jun/23/bame-students-make-up-one-fifth-of-new-oxford-undergraduates
    By comparison, in 2017, BAME students made up 26.2% of students at all UK universities. Widening access programmes have also resulted in an increase in the proportion of black students gaining places at Oxford, from 2.6% in 2018 to 3.1% last year, but the data shows many colleges still admitting few black students....

    Given that black people are around 4% of the population, its surely not that surprising there are not that many at Oxford.

    There are not that many in Britain, relatively speaking. This is not America.

    If BAME students are 20% of Oxford's intake, then they are punching above their weight again, given Britain is 85% white.

    There really is not that much to see here
    Is this domestic students only? Otherwise those from Asia would inflate that number.
    Remember that middle class Indians, Chinese etc are really white people, so don't count.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2020

    Surrey said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Both are waging it but the big difference is the cause. The generals of the Left are doing it to change society. The generals of the Right are doing it to win "silent majority" elections under false pretences.
    The amazing thing is that I think you actually believe this dangerous nonsense. Where was 'the spiteful vandalism of places of worship' in your explanation that the real aim of Woke was to reduce racism in personal interactions? This kind of wanton wrecking will achieve the exact opposite, if anything.
    There are things said and done in the name of movements I support - e.g. "blacklivesmatter" and "metoo" and "timesup" which I find OTT and counterproductive. This will almost always be the case. You don't get powerful moments of sweeping change without excesses and pendulum overswing. It just doesn't work like that. So I need to weigh it up in the round and ask myself if I see the movement as a net plus or not. If it's the latter I will cease to support it. Otherwise, I keep rooting for it and that is the case for the ones I've referenced here.
    So we're back to omelettes and eggs, aren't we? What if the voters and politicians who disagree with you decide to take an 'omelettes and eggs' approach when it comes to preventing this wonderful 'sweeping change'? Hostility and entrenchment on both sides - an outcome as predictable as it is corrosive.
    I think most people are capable of supporting a movement whose cause they strongly approve of despite it sometimes saying or doing things they would prefer it didn't. Nothing special about me in this respect.
    All right, so 'the ends justify the means' it is. At least Thucydides and Hobbes will be sardonically chuckling in their eternal rest.
    You really are determinedly absolutist. Always seeking to drag me to the far corner of the reservation. Odd in somebody whose main criticism of the Left is their absolutism.

    But look, marker down. If "BLM" turn seriously and habitually violent against people - as opposed to against statues of people - I'll be coming up off my knee.
    I've got respect for the knee thing and in particular its reference to Mexico 1968 but it may soon have outlived its usefulness and the idea of pressuring anybody to do it is not good at all. Antifascists have to force themselves to see things from the fascist point of view. Imagine a symbolic racist response to BLM etc. that surpasses the "OK" signal for "WP" ("White Power"), and "Pepe" too, and captures the "silent" "majority". It could happen.

    image
    Imagine (only slightly fanciful this) you slipped into a coma last year, woke up next year, went back to work, and then made that gesture (innocently) in response to a colleague doing a great job.

    You could lose your job, and you'd be completely baffled.
    I make that gesture and have never heard anything otherwise in real life. Only on the internet on sites like this have I ever seen it meaning anything other than OK.

    Context should matter. If I say OK to someone it should be clear from context what is being said.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kinabalu said:

    Surrey said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Both are waging it but the big difference is the cause. The generals of the Left are doing it to change society. The generals of the Right are doing it to win "silent majority" elections under false pretences.
    The amazing thing is that I think you actually believe this dangerous nonsense. Where was 'the spiteful vandalism of places of worship' in your explanation that the real aim of Woke was to reduce racism in personal interactions? This kind of wanton wrecking will achieve the exact opposite, if anything.
    There are things said and done in the name of movements I support - e.g. "blacklivesmatter" and "metoo" and "timesup" which I find OTT and counterproductive. This will almost always be the case. You don't get powerful moments of sweeping change without excesses and pendulum overswing. It just doesn't work like that. So I need to weigh it up in the round and ask myself if I see the movement as a net plus or not. If it's the latter I will cease to support it. Otherwise, I keep rooting for it and that is the case for the ones I've referenced here.
    If fascists start violence against ethnic minorities and against those in the ethnic majority who oppose prejudice and discrimination towards ethnic minorities, it is no excuse for those who consider themselves to be conservative and not in the slightest bit fascist (with a bit of "Enoch was right" behind closed doors) to assert that the left were asking for this, nor to point out that such-and-such a figure on the left said something stupid about ethnicity or about anything else. There are fascists who are very serious about pushing things towards race war, and they have made quite a lot of headway already away from media headlines - witness the kinds of view that are often expressed by British soldiers on Arrse.co.uk. Meanwhile Stephen Bannon recommends that people read his beloved race-war novel "The Camp of the Saints" by Jean Raspail. He'd probably recommend "The Turner Diaries" if he could get away with it.
    I do think this point is so important. There is no equivalence between the 2 sides of antifa or anti-racism activists and the racist cum fascist far right. The latter is wholly malign and beyond the pale. It is not (imo) a legitimate position to take. And every time the false equivalence is drawn - and it does keep being drawn including by many who ought to know better - the far right benefit. They become that tiny bit more acceptable and accepted.

    PS: Mention of Enoch Powell. I wonder how much of the (to me) utterly ludicrous upset and anger about too much "taking the knee" is driven by a deep and primitive fear in people of Powell's warning coming to pass, of our society reaching a place where "the black man holds the whip hand over the white man." Is that in there somewhere?

    Anyone here prepared to admit to this?
    Perhaps we should look at South Africa, where the black man does, to use your phrase, hold the whip over the white man.

    How is life for whites there?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    isam said:
    Remember, it's the right that's waging the culture war. Never the left, never the left...
    Statues, though. Statues.
    Generally, it's the right waging war against cultural change, with statues and stuff.
    Generally, it's the left that is driving cultural change, and, in the long run, winning the cultural wars.
    I thought it was an odd comment from Ayesha Hazarika on the podacst last week that the Left doesn't win culture wars. Evidence would suggest that they've had a lot of success over the last three decades.

    The problem, of course, is that they don't think that the war is ever won.
    Will that war ever end? Will there ever be a stable end state? Or will cultural evolution continue until the last human being dies?
    Society is always evolving. The internet has been revolutionary, for example. How we manage that is up for debate.

    But certain things probably won’t change. Paedophilia, for example, is unlikely to be viewed in anything other than a very negative light. That didn’t stop some nutcases arguing otherwise.

    The issue with BLM is that it’s an American thing. Quite how it’s relevant to the UK, I don’t know. And I think that’s what’s wound up a lot of people.
    I don't think it's fair to say there is no relevance to the UK, there is a large aspect of UK society that is still racist. Look at the top of any company or the civil service and you will see the same old white male faces cloned thousands of times. There is a glass ceiling in this country, especially in the public sector for people who look like me that doesn't exist for people who don't. I'm not saying that the ceiling isn't much higher here than in the US and we are successfully raising it, but to pretend it doesn't exist helps no one.
    But that’s different to the issue in America of racist police officers murdering black people (not Asian and not Hispanic people). Okay, I’m sure the issue you’ve raised applies there too, but that’s not the main issue as far as I can tell.

    Also, you’re not black. Those wind up merchants flying that banner over the Etihad should have written Asian lives matter. That would have caused the media to have total malfunction.

    To go back to your point about glass ceilings, as a civil servant, I know my place and that place is not above where I am now. Perhaps race (and gender) are issues, but I think personality is a much bigger issue. I’m not the right type of person. I’m too independent in terms of how I think. I can’t not call out bullshit. Those are not qualities desired for the senior civil service.
    "So, I see your strengths, your CV speaks loud and clear on that. But let me throw you a curveball, ask a question that people can find difficult. What are your main weaknesses, would you say? Come on, be honest now."

    "Hmm, well I'm a very independent thinker. That's the first thing that springs to mind. Maybe a bit too independent for some."

    "OK. Anything else?"

    "Yeah. I cannot, try as I might, tolerate bullshit. I just have to call it out."

    "You have the job young man! Start Monday?"

    :smile:
    The correct answer in a teaching interview when asked what your weakness is, is to say you spend too much time planning because you are overly concerned with the students doing well.

    Although in my very first job I tipped the scale by saying I was obsessed with accurate spelling, punctuation and grammar.
    I just told them that I was prepared to teach Physics and that seemed to do the trick...
    Huh!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Doubling the distance more than doubles the cost as in many cases it means four times the area.

    Eight times the volume.
This discussion has been closed.