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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The case for betting on a Trump victory in November

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  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    Anyone seen anything from the former DPP? A bit early for the post I know.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    She should have just said 'I celebrate unlawfulness'.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    I take it the PB racists who object to the toppling of Colston also objected to the toppling of Saddam or Lenin?

    Who are the PB racists?
    You for example?

    *runs and hides*
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Maybe Starmer should send a letter to her, withdrawing the whip.

    I'm sure he won't.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020

    twitter.com/NadiaWhittomeMP/status/1269732031128383490

    Posted without comment.

    Labour, the party of disorder.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    eadric said:

    dixiedean said:

    An excellent piece.

    I'd also add the long and short campaign is crucial for Trump (and Biden).

    Biden cannot be drawn into the culture wars, or Trump will drag him down and beat him senseless with experience.

    Perhaps play his American Carnage inauguration speech over footage of what's actually happening?
    For a Law and Order President I don't see much.
    For a naturally gifted medic I see a lot of virus.
    For a great business brain I see many without jobs.
    Sure

    But then you look across, and see...... Biden, dribbling in his miserable dotage

    Jesus
    Are you seriously saying that if you were an American, you'd vote for Trump instead of Biden?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited June 2020
    https://twitter.com/metpoliceuk/status/1269756486886068226?s=20

    They got that prat:

    The majority of the arrests were made for public order offences. One was for criminal damage following an incident at the Cenotaph.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    isam said:

    eadric said:

    FWIW I have a friend who is very well connected with Antifa and BLM in the USA/UK

    She is a smart lefty who was recently on board with all this but is now horrified by the way it is spinning out of control

    she says the intention is now to take down statues across the country and beyond, and Cromwell is definitely one of them

    It might be paranoid bollocks, but I offer it FYI

    How come the Millwall fans guarding the Churchill statue got moved on so the BLMs could deface it? I'd take the football thugs to bash up the snotty students all day long
    Look up Common Purpose. It's a whole thing.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like they're gunning for Cromwell next, can't condone any of this - but he was a vandal himself tbh.
    It's the closest we've got to a Mao or Lenin statue in this country I think.

    Fun fact. The only other Cromwell statue is in Warrington.
    Is that so? Pretty remarkable, its very common as a street name.

    I really don't think he is is comparable to Mao or Lenin though. The atrocities in Ireland, terrible though they were (as warfare of the time was, though the events in Ireland were not typical for the isles), often seems to end up attributing the truly horrific overall death toll in Ireland from that entire war period entirely at his feet.
    Apparently there's one in St Ives and 2 others.
    He's incredibly controversial.
    We just don't talk about it see.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    "The Colston Hall is a concert hall, located in Bristol, United Kingdom. It was first opened already as a concert venue on September 20, 1867, but changed over the many years the interior and capacity because of a fire damaged most of the building. Many well-known acts over the years like top artists the The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, The Who, Iron Maiden and more recently Robbie Williams, to name a few, gave concerts there."



    Burn all their albums.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    eadric said:

    dixiedean said:

    An excellent piece.

    I'd also add the long and short campaign is crucial for Trump (and Biden).

    Biden cannot be drawn into the culture wars, or Trump will drag him down and beat him senseless with experience.

    Perhaps play his American Carnage inauguration speech over footage of what's actually happening?
    For a Law and Order President I don't see much.
    For a naturally gifted medic I see a lot of virus.
    For a great business brain I see many without jobs.
    Sure

    But then you look across, and see...... Biden, dribbling in his miserable dotage

    Jesus
    Yes. And I know who I'd take and why.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    RobD said:

    She should have just said 'I celebrate unlawfulness'.
    Be fair she is missing out on her exams so she's a bit emotional.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    "The Colston Hall is a concert hall, located in Bristol, United Kingdom. It was first opened already as a concert venue on September 20, 1867, but changed over the many years the interior and capacity because of a fire damaged most of the building. Many well-known acts over the years like top artists the The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, The Who, Iron Maiden and more recently Robbie Williams, to name a few, gave concerts there."



    Burn all their albums.

    I'm sure Sunil already has!

    And if not, why not?
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Ave_it said:

    Maybe Starmer should send a letter to her, withdrawing the whip.

    I'm sure he won't.
    "I deplore statue tearing down from both sides"
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulling that statue down may have been technically illegal too but it was a good moment. Just as pulling down slavers statues that were only erected decades after slavery was abolished are here. Or pulling down statues of Confederates in the US.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like they're gunning for Cromwell next, can't condone any of this - but he was a vandal himself tbh.
    It's the closest we've got to a Mao or Lenin statue in this country I think.

    Fun fact. The only other Cromwell statue is in Warrington.
    Is that so? Pretty remarkable, its very common as a street name.

    I really don't think he is is comparable to Mao or Lenin though. The atrocities in Ireland, terrible though they were (as warfare of the time was, though the events in Ireland were not typical for the isles), often seems to end up attributing the truly horrific overall death toll in Ireland from that entire war period entirely at his feet.
    Apparently there's one in St Ives and 2 others.
    He's incredibly controversial.
    We just don't talk about it see.
    The controversy is absolutely understandable given the events. Magnification of misdeeds out of context for religious and nationalistic views of the time, and standards of warfare common to the period, as part of national mythmaking, is as incorrect as ignoring of misdeeds for the same purpose.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Excellent article, thank you Mr. Ed.

    It certainly provides food for thought for those of us wanting to bet on this election.

    On the economy & jobs, I wouldn't get too focused on the latest employment figures. The US had previously had a vertiginous increase in unemployment, and these latest figures may simply be a short-term bounce back as some businesses hire back workers they laid off as a precaution. I expect the economic figures, and even more Trump's favourite metric of stock market valuations, will be very volatile over the next few months. In addition there is the non-negligible risk of further waves of Covid-19 deaths, which in turn would lead to more economic damage. Overall, the economy is likely to be in a pretty dire state as the election approaches: the question is who is going to get the blame.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    alterego said:

    Anyone seen anything from the former DPP? A bit early for the post I know.

    Judge-led inquiry into the role of statues in modern Britain?
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    So you're okay with criminal damage?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    No, there are quite a few.

    I reckon it’s unlikely Colston is going back. I wasn’t even aware until today that we had a six foot hagiography of a slave trafficker in the centre of one of our core cities.

    Will their be much appetite in Brizzle to restore him to his pedestal? I doubt it.

    I'm sure you've made this same post three or four times now? We get it, there was a statue, you were surprised, etc.
    FPT etc
    Oh, apologies.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Anyone know how to get hold of deleted tweets?

    A certain ex footballer called for a race war and then deleted his tweets
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    Me. I do not give a damn.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Ave_it said:

    Maybe Starmer should send a letter to her, withdrawing the whip.

    I'm sure he won't.
    Starmer won't say a single word, the hypocrite.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020
    Welcome to the 2020s, what a time to be alive. I swear people are turning into pre teens

    https://twitter.com/ladyhaja/status/1269581342964146178?s=21
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Well no. The violence against people is far worse and should be the focus of any criticims - on both sides whether its the BLM campaigners or those standing up for law and order.

    Statues - meh, just cant get angry about them.
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60
    CatMan said:

    eadric said:

    dixiedean said:

    An excellent piece.

    I'd also add the long and short campaign is crucial for Trump (and Biden).

    Biden cannot be drawn into the culture wars, or Trump will drag him down and beat him senseless with experience.

    Perhaps play his American Carnage inauguration speech over footage of what's actually happening?
    For a Law and Order President I don't see much.
    For a naturally gifted medic I see a lot of virus.
    For a great business brain I see many without jobs.
    Sure

    But then you look across, and see...... Biden, dribbling in his miserable dotage

    Jesus
    Are you seriously saying that if you were an American, you'd vote for Trump instead of Biden?
    Trump is a perfectly valid choice if the alternative is a woke revolutionary state.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Exactly.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,076
    It seems too many people seem to have forgotten the biggest pandemic in 100 years is going on. Not just the protesters but more generally the government angling for upping the pace of restrictions easing.

    Meanwhile, R seems to have been increasing towards 1 before the most recent events: https://www.mrc-bsu.cam.ac.uk/now-casting/

    I have every sympathy for the protesters and those tired of lockdown, but I can't see a happy ending to all of this...
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    You can still see his replies to the replies to his original tweet.

    I can only assume he is drunk
  • whunterwhunter Posts: 60

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    On a simple level it is an unforgiveable act of vandalism to destroy a listed building or a historic monument. No one should be above the democratic heritage consent process.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    Current prediction for the US presidential election: too close to call.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    edited June 2020
    alterego said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    So you're okay with criminal damage?
    If you said at the start of lockdown we will go 10 weeks, mostly of hot days, before any violent protests and then a statue would fall and a couple of days of skirmishes with the police but no riots, Id have said thats a lot less trouble than Id expect.

    With lockdown there was bound to be some trouble sooner or later - if its mostly statues thats better than it being mostly real people.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    alterego said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    So you're okay with criminal damage?
    Criminal damage happens every single day of the year. It's bad but criminal damage against a communal statue is much less harmful than criminal damage against eg an individual's home or business.

    I'd be more upset at a broken window than a pulled down statue but I'm not going to lose any sleep over broken windows unless they're my own.

    If the perpetuators get caught they should be prosecuted but that's the same for all damage.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like they're gunning for Cromwell next, can't condone any of this - but he was a vandal himself tbh.
    It's the closest we've got to a Mao or Lenin statue in this country I think.

    Fun fact. The only other Cromwell statue is in Warrington.
    Is that so? Pretty remarkable, its very common as a street name.

    I really don't think he is is comparable to Mao or Lenin though. The atrocities in Ireland, terrible though they were (as warfare of the time was, though the events in Ireland were not typical for the isles), often seems to end up attributing the truly horrific overall death toll in Ireland from that entire war period entirely at his feet.
    Apparently there's one in St Ives and 2 others.
    He's incredibly controversial.
    We just don't talk about it see.
    The controversy is absolutely understandable given the events. Magnification of misdeeds out of context for religious and nationalistic views of the time, and standards of warfare common to the period, as part of national mythmaking, is as incorrect as ignoring of misdeeds for the same purpose.
    Well exactly my friend. I'm a bit of a Civil Wars fan. Almost no one studies it before degree level history. It is remarkable how ignorant many well read intelligent people are about the basic facts of the era.
    We choose to bury our heads.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    whunter said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    On a simple level it is an unforgiveable act of vandalism to destroy a listed building or a historic monument. No one should be above the democratic heritage consent process.
    Obviously not a catholic!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Exactly.
    Especially if arse wipe ex footballers start calling for a race war

    He seems to be up for a fight though ........

    He better hope no one screen grabbed his original tweet
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Well no. The violence against people is far worse and should be the focus of any criticims - on both sides whether its the BLM campaigners or those standing up for law and order.

    Statues - meh, just cant get angry about them.
    Agreed completely.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    edited June 2020

    "The Colston Hall is a concert hall, located in Bristol, United Kingdom. It was first opened already as a concert venue on September 20, 1867, but changed over the many years the interior and capacity because of a fire damaged most of the building. Many well-known acts over the years like top artists the The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, The Who, Iron Maiden and more recently Robbie Williams, to name a few, gave concerts there."



    Burn all their albums.

    I'm sure Sunil already has!

    And if not, why not?
    Actually, Depeche Mode and Queen aren't in Rottenborough's list :p
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,528
    HYUFD said:

    I still lean to Trumpton winning (largely because of my ultra pessimistic nature when it comes to politics), but there’s a flaw:

    PBers keep telling us that this all plays into Trump’s hands. Yet the polling says otherwise. Wouldn’t it have played into his tiny hands just a little bit by now?

    Depends what polling, a poll today said 52% of Americans back sending in the military if the protests get violent as Trump suggested
    Remind me what % the Brexit party were going to get if Boris extended.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    isam said:

    Welcome to the 2020s, what a time to be alive. I swear people are turning into pre teens

    https://twitter.com/ladyhaja/status/1269581342964146178?s=21

    Officer not severely injuried....

    "Female police officer suffered a collapsed lung, broken collarbone and shattered ribs"

    If that is not severely injured, quite badly injured = decapitated. So much for standing up for women's rights and all that.

    That apology is worse than the actual original tweet.

    If somebody at the Mail had written something like that about a protester, the Guardian would be all over it demanding a sacking.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    edited June 2020

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    eadric said:

    CatMan said:

    eadric said:

    dixiedean said:

    An excellent piece.

    I'd also add the long and short campaign is crucial for Trump (and Biden).

    Biden cannot be drawn into the culture wars, or Trump will drag him down and beat him senseless with experience.

    Perhaps play his American Carnage inauguration speech over footage of what's actually happening?
    For a Law and Order President I don't see much.
    For a naturally gifted medic I see a lot of virus.
    For a great business brain I see many without jobs.
    Sure

    But then you look across, and see...... Biden, dribbling in his miserable dotage

    Jesus
    Are you seriously saying that if you were an American, you'd vote for Trump instead of Biden?
    I dunno. I’d guess it would depend what kind of American I was

    I speak as someone who has long despised Trump (before 2016) and finds him laughable and menacing. He is a weirdo freak.

    But somehow the Democrats are making this a contest, in their ineptitude. Beggars belief
    Confucius says, Those who want an excuse, will find one.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited June 2020
    Floater said:

    Anyone know how to get hold of deleted tweets?

    A certain ex footballer called for a race war and then deleted his tweets

    Snapbird? Internet Archive? Google Cache?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    'Obsession' with university has divided society, says Tony Blair's son

    His comments come nearly 21 years after his father pledged to see 50 per cent of students go on to higher education"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/07/obsession-university-has-divided-society-says-tony-blairs-son/
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Come to think of it Charles 1 shares many of Trump's lack of attributes.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Are buildings built by White British people during the 1700s all legitimate targets now? Just asking.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    EPG said:

    Are buildings built by White British people during the 1700s all legitimate targets now? Just asking.

    I assume St Pauls will shortly be demolished?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    IshmaelZ said:

    I reckon it’s unlikely Colston is going back. I wasn’t even aware until today that we had a six foot hagiography of a slave trafficker in the centre of one of our core cities.

    Will their be much appetite in Brizzle to restore him to his pedestal? I doubt it.

    Never mind the statue, the whole city along with Liverpool, Preston, Whitehaven, Glasgow and all those west coast ports was pretty much built on the proceeds of the slave trade. Do you think we should nuke the lot from orbit?
    Yes. There's something dishonest about toppling the statue. As though we can pretend the wealth of the country wasn't built on the exploitation it represented.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like they're gunning for Cromwell next, can't condone any of this - but he was a vandal himself tbh.
    It's the closest we've got to a Mao or Lenin statue in this country I think.

    Fun fact. The only other Cromwell statue is in Warrington.
    Bonus fact: There is a statue of Cromwell in Wythenshawe Hall, Manchester. It was originally in Deansgate, Manchester.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    RobD said:

    EPG said:

    Are buildings built by White British people during the 1700s all legitimate targets now? Just asking.

    I assume St Pauls will shortly be demolished?
    Built in part in the 1700s, so yeah, I'd guess it is a "legitimate target".
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    edited June 2020
    Here's an interesting question:

    Why aren't statues taken down when the centre-left is in power, like they were in the UK from 1997 to 2010, and in the US from 2008 to 2016? Why are they only the subject of protest when the centre-right / right are in power?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    It's a pity that the Benin Bronzes will have to be destroyed, but consistency is all. They are symbols of a despotic militaristic dynasty heavily involved in the slave trade.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    It's a pity that the Benin Bronzes will have to be destroyed, but consistency is all. They are symbols of a despotic militaristic dynasty heavily involved in the slave trade.

    Parthenon Marbles too. Guy's Hospital will be torn down.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    eadric said:

    She’s basically set out a shopping list of the statues they will go for next. Now that the useless Bristol police have allowed today’s vandalism, why should the protestors stop? At each stage the rioters will say Well he did THIS and THIS and it will be very hard to argue, because the law enforcers have already agreed that “context matters”

    Eventually they will come for Churchill and Lincoln (racists!!!) and all the icons will be smashed. It is tragic to watch.

    And morons like Phillip Thompson cheer it on. God rot them.
    It's a symptom of the impotence of the left that they're behaving like this. They can't win elections, and their actions are making it even more unlikely that they'll win any in the future.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Andy_JS said:

    'Obsession' with university has divided society, says Tony Blair's son

    His comments come nearly 21 years after his father pledged to see 50 per cent of students go on to higher education"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/07/obsession-university-has-divided-society-says-tony-blairs-son/

    So says the Bristol and Yale educated Euan Blair
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    Andy_JS said:

    Here's an interesting question:

    Why aren't statues taken down when the centre-left is in power, like they were in the UK from 1997 to 2010, and in the US from 2008 to 2016? Why are they only the subject of protest when the centre-right / right are in power?

    Rhodes Must Fall kicked off in ANC-run South Africa.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Must_Fall
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205


    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    Bit of a shift from your Cummings position
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    It's clear Trump was teetering due to the shambolic US response to Covid, but this most recent crisis has rescued him, maybe even clinched it for him.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:


    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    Bit of a shift from your Cummings position
    Is it?

    I thought I said with Cummings he should do what he thought is right.
    I am saying the protestors should do what they think is right.

    What's the difference?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Welcome to the 2020s, what a time to be alive. I swear people are turning into pre teens

    https://twitter.com/ladyhaja/status/1269581342964146178?s=21

    Officer not severely injuried....

    "Female police officer suffered a collapsed lung, broken collarbone and shattered ribs"

    If that is not severely injured, quite badly injured = decapitated. So much for standing up for women's rights and all that.

    That apology is worse than the actual original tweet.

    If somebody at the Mail had written something like that about a protester, the Guardian would be all over it demanding a sacking.
    These people will be running the country in a decade or two... covid-19 seems delightful in comparison
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    It's clear Trump was teetering due to the shambolic US response to Covid, but this most recent crisis has rescued him, maybe even clinched it for him.

    So why is his polling not showing that?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like they're gunning for Cromwell next, can't condone any of this - but he was a vandal himself tbh.
    It's the closest we've got to a Mao or Lenin statue in this country I think.

    Fun fact. The only other Cromwell statue is in Warrington.
    Bonus fact: There is a statue of Cromwell in Wythenshawe Hall, Manchester. It was originally in Deansgate, Manchester.
    There's a privately held statue of Cromwell at an UNDISCLOSED LOCATION in Scotland. I'd tell you where but I don't want to in case the cretins decide to pay a visit.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    eadric said:


    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    How many slaves could freely exercise their grievances against slavery?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    I still lean to Trumpton winning (largely because of my ultra pessimistic nature when it comes to politics), but there’s a flaw:

    PBers keep telling us that this all plays into Trump’s hands. Yet the polling says otherwise. Wouldn’t it have played into his tiny hands just a little bit by now?

    Depends what polling, a poll today said 52% of Americans back sending in the military if the protests get violent as Trump suggested
    Remind me what % the Brexit party were going to get if Boris extended.
    Boris got a landslide last year to deliver Brexit if you recall, Boris never voted for extension
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
    The difference is, we are a democracy with universal suffrage and a free media

    To take your examples

    1. The suffragettes were protesting for the vote, they did not have the vote, they had no choice
    2. The Tea Party was literally a protest against Taxation minus Representation
    3. The Jim Crow laws were overt discrimination by law
    4. Gandhi was protesting an imperial conquest of his country

    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    Instead they tore it down in exultant anger and now we have the makings of a culture war. Well done. Moron
    They're all relevant they're all illegal in their day but were part of changing the culture.

    We still today have rampant discrimination and evil ongoing that matters far more than some civil disorder.

    In a hundred years time pulling down statues of slavers may be viewed like Rosa Parks on a bus and the generations of the future will be confused why it took so long to remove slavers statues (which were only put up AFTER we knew slavery was wrong and it had been abolished).
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    dixiedean said:

    It's clear Trump was teetering due to the shambolic US response to Covid, but this most recent crisis has rescued him, maybe even clinched it for him.

    So why is his polling not showing that?
    Give it time.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
    The difference is, we are a democracy with universal suffrage and a free media

    To take your examples

    1. The suffragettes were protesting for the vote, they did not have the vote, they had no choice
    2. The Tea Party was literally a protest against Taxation minus Representation
    3. The Jim Crow laws were overt discrimination by law
    4. Gandhi was protesting an imperial conquest of his country

    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    Instead they tore it down in exultant anger and now we have the makings of a culture war. Well done. Moron
    A culture war over a statue of a bloke naebody heard of before today?
    Haway man.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
    The difference is, we are a democracy with universal suffrage and a free media

    To take your examples

    1. The suffragettes were protesting for the vote, they did not have the vote, they had no choice
    2. The Tea Party was literally a protest against Taxation minus Representation
    3. The Jim Crow laws were overt discrimination by law
    4. Gandhi was protesting an imperial conquest of his country

    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    Instead they tore it down in exultant anger and now we have the makings of a culture war. Well done. Moron
    They're all relevant they're all illegal in their day but were part of changing the culture.

    We still today have rampant discrimination and evil ongoing that matters far more than some civil disorder.

    In a hundred years time pulling down statues of slavers may be viewed like Rosa Parks on a bus and the generations of the future will be confused why it took so long to remove slavers statues (which were only put up AFTER we knew slavery was wrong and it had been abolished).
    Uh?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    .

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like they're gunning for Cromwell next, can't condone any of this - but he was a vandal himself tbh.
    It's the closest we've got to a Mao or Lenin statue in this country I think.

    Fun fact. The only other Cromwell statue is in Warrington.
    Bonus fact: There is a statue of Cromwell in Wythenshawe Hall, Manchester. It was originally in Deansgate, Manchester.
    There's a privately held statue of Cromwell at an UNDISCLOSED LOCATION in Scotland. I'd tell you where but I don't want to in case the cretins decide to pay a visit.
    Well they are going to find it now; that's quite an uncommon name for a place.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    RobD said:

    .

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like they're gunning for Cromwell next, can't condone any of this - but he was a vandal himself tbh.
    It's the closest we've got to a Mao or Lenin statue in this country I think.

    Fun fact. The only other Cromwell statue is in Warrington.
    Bonus fact: There is a statue of Cromwell in Wythenshawe Hall, Manchester. It was originally in Deansgate, Manchester.
    There's a privately held statue of Cromwell at an UNDISCLOSED LOCATION in Scotland. I'd tell you where but I don't want to in case the cretins decide to pay a visit.
    Well they are going to find it now; that's quite an uncommon name for a place.
    LOL - and on that note, night all. :lol:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    dixiedean said:

    Come to think of it Charles 1 shares many of Trump's lack of attributes.

    Devoted to his wife though.

    It's a pity that the Benin Bronzes will have to be destroyed, but consistency is all. They are symbols of a despotic militaristic dynasty heavily involved in the slave trade.

    I hear people used to die for the amusement of others in the Colliseum. Tear it down now!

    (Yes, I'm just having fun, obviously not all these examples are the same as taking down a statue of a somewhat notable slaver)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
    The difference is, we are a democracy with universal suffrage and a free media

    To take your examples

    1. The suffragettes were protesting for the vote, they did not have the vote, they had no choice
    2. The Tea Party was literally a protest against Taxation minus Representation
    3. The Jim Crow laws were overt discrimination by law
    4. Gandhi was protesting an imperial conquest of his country

    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    Instead they tore it down in exultant anger and now we have the makings of a culture war. Well done. Moron
    They're all relevant they're all illegal in their day but were part of changing the culture.

    We still today have rampant discrimination and evil ongoing that matters far more than some civil disorder.

    In a hundred years time pulling down statues of slavers may be viewed like Rosa Parks on a bus and the generations of the future will be confused why it took so long to remove slavers statues (which were only put up AFTER we knew slavery was wrong and it had been abolished).
    Uh?
    Which part went over your head or are you struggling with?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited June 2020
    RobD said:

    .

    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like they're gunning for Cromwell next, can't condone any of this - but he was a vandal himself tbh.
    It's the closest we've got to a Mao or Lenin statue in this country I think.

    Fun fact. The only other Cromwell statue is in Warrington.
    Bonus fact: There is a statue of Cromwell in Wythenshawe Hall, Manchester. It was originally in Deansgate, Manchester.
    There's a privately held statue of Cromwell at an UNDISCLOSED LOCATION in Scotland. I'd tell you where but I don't want to in case the cretins decide to pay a visit.
    Well they are going to find it now; that's quite an uncommon name for a place.
    Could be real. On a similar note there is a nomansland not that far from me for instance, and probably several others.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomansland,_Wiltshire
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
    The difference is, we are a democracy with universal suffrage and a free media

    To take your examples

    1. The suffragettes were protesting for the vote, they did not have the vote, they had no choice
    2. The Tea Party was literally a protest against Taxation minus Representation
    3. The Jim Crow laws were overt discrimination by law
    4. Gandhi was protesting an imperial conquest of his country

    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    Instead they tore it down in exultant anger and now we have the makings of a culture war. Well done. Moron
    They're all relevant they're all illegal in their day but were part of changing the culture.

    We still today have rampant discrimination and evil ongoing that matters far more than some civil disorder.

    In a hundred years time pulling down statues of slavers may be viewed like Rosa Parks on a bus and the generations of the future will be confused why it took so long to remove slavers statues (which were only put up AFTER we knew slavery was wrong and it had been abolished).
    Uh?
    Which part went over your head or are you struggling with?
    The part where you suddenly have the writing and reasoning capability of an averagely bright 7 year old.

    Rosa Parks? Jeez. If she has any surviving family they should sue.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    It's a pity that the Benin Bronzes will have to be destroyed, but consistency is all. They are symbols of a despotic militaristic dynasty heavily involved in the slave trade.

    I suppose for your zinger to zing the bronzes would have to be returned to Nigeria first. There's probably a petition to support that move that you can sign.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
    The difference is, we are a democracy with universal suffrage and a free media

    To take your examples

    1. The suffragettes were protesting for the vote, they did not have the vote, they had no choice
    2. The Tea Party was literally a protest against Taxation minus Representation
    3. The Jim Crow laws were overt discrimination by law
    4. Gandhi was protesting an imperial conquest of his country

    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    Instead they tore it down in exultant anger and now we have the makings of a culture war. Well done. Moron
    They're all relevant they're all illegal in their day but were part of changing the culture.

    We still today have rampant discrimination and evil ongoing that matters far more than some civil disorder.

    In a hundred years time pulling down statues of slavers may be viewed like Rosa Parks on a bus and the generations of the future will be confused why it took so long to remove slavers statues (which were only put up AFTER we knew slavery was wrong and it had been abolished).
    Uh?
    Which part went over your head or are you struggling with?
    The part where you suddenly have the writing and reasoning capability of an averagely bright 7 year old.

    Rosa Parks? Jeez. If she has any surviving family they should sue.
    Rosa Parks acted illegally.
    So did those pulling down slavers statues.

    The law is not the be all and end all. Never has been.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Come to think of it Charles 1 shares many of Trump's lack of attributes.

    Devoted to his wife though.

    Mmm. Yeah. He was courageous in battle too...

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    dixiedean said:

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
    The difference is, we are a democracy with universal suffrage and a free media

    To take your examples

    1. The suffragettes were protesting for the vote, they did not have the vote, they had no choice
    2. The Tea Party was literally a protest against Taxation minus Representation
    3. The Jim Crow laws were overt discrimination by law
    4. Gandhi was protesting an imperial conquest of his country

    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    Instead they tore it down in exultant anger and now we have the makings of a culture war. Well done. Moron
    A culture war over a statue of a bloke naebody heard of before today?
    Haway man.
    How many people had heard of Alfred Dreyfus before there was a massive culture war over him?
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    Charles I believed in God and thought he was chosen by God to rule through Divine Right.

    The Donald believes only in himself.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    dixiedean said:

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
    The difference is, we are a democracy with universal suffrage and a free media

    To take your examples

    1. The suffragettes were protesting for the vote, they did not have the vote, they had no choice
    2. The Tea Party was literally a protest against Taxation minus Representation
    3. The Jim Crow laws were overt discrimination by law
    4. Gandhi was protesting an imperial conquest of his country

    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    Instead they tore it down in exultant anger and now we have the makings of a culture war. Well done. Moron
    A culture war over a statue of a bloke naebody heard of before today?
    Haway man.
    How many people had heard of Alfred Dreyfus before there was a massive culture war over him?
    Haway man again. It's a statue. No one died today.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
    The difference is, we are a democracy with universal suffrage and a free media

    To take your examples

    1. The suffragettes were protesting for the vote, they did not have the vote, they had no choice
    2. The Tea Party was literally a protest against Taxation minus Representation
    3. The Jim Crow laws were overt discrimination by law
    4. Gandhi was protesting an imperial conquest of his country

    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    Instead they tore it down in exultant anger and now we have the makings of a culture war. Well done. Moron
    They're all relevant they're all illegal in their day but were part of changing the culture.

    We still today have rampant discrimination and evil ongoing that matters far more than some civil disorder.

    In a hundred years time pulling down statues of slavers may be viewed like Rosa Parks on a bus and the generations of the future will be confused why it took so long to remove slavers statues (which were only put up AFTER we knew slavery was wrong and it had been abolished).
    Uh?
    Which part went over your head or are you struggling with?
    The part where you suddenly have the writing and reasoning capability of an averagely bright 7 year old.

    Rosa Parks? Jeez. If she has any surviving family they should sue.
    Rosa Parks acted illegally.
    So did those pulling down slavers statues.

    The law is not the be all and end all. Never has been.
    All the other things you mentioned achieved something tangible

    What's going to change here apart from the statues not being there anymore?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2020
    Not sure why there'd be a culture war over a slaver. Who is so invested in the slaver that they'll take part in a culture war on a pro slaver side?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    dixiedean said:

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
    The difference is, we are a democracy with universal suffrage and a free media

    To take your examples

    1. The suffragettes were protesting for the vote, they did not have the vote, they had no choice
    2. The Tea Party was literally a protest against Taxation minus Representation
    3. The Jim Crow laws were overt discrimination by law
    4. Gandhi was protesting an imperial conquest of his country

    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    Instead they tore it down in exultant anger and now we have the makings of a culture war. Well done. Moron
    A culture war over a statue of a bloke naebody heard of before today?
    Haway man.
    How many people had heard of Alfred Dreyfus before there was a massive culture war over him?
    If I say no ones heard of him now, am I falling for the joke?
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    edited June 2020
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
    The difference is, we are a democracy with universal suffrage and a free media

    To take your examples

    1. The suffragettes were protesting for the vote, they did not have the vote, they had no choice
    2. The Tea Party was literally a protest against Taxation minus Representation
    3. The Jim Crow laws were overt discrimination by law
    4. Gandhi was protesting an imperial conquest of his country

    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    Instead they tore it down in exultant anger and now we have the makings of a culture war. Well done. Moron
    A culture war over a statue of a bloke naebody heard of before today?
    Haway man.
    How many people had heard of Alfred Dreyfus before there was a massive culture war over him?
    Haway man again. It's a statue. No one died today.
    Only perhaps vicariously via Covid-19 in a couple weeks.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601

    Not sure why there'd be a culture war over a slaver. Who is so invested in the slaver that they'll take part in a culture war on a pro slaver side?

    Why don't we concentrate on ending the slavery that's taking place right now as we speak in parts of Africa and Asia?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    eadric said:

    RobD said:

    Is there anyone else who couldnt really care much about the statues? Im more surprised how strong people feel on both sides. It doesnt seem either particularly important or clear cut either way whether it is right or wrong.

    You think it's going to stop at statues?

    Bless.
    Oh no!

    First they came for the statues of slavers.

    Wait what follows?

    Then the came for the slavers?
    Then they demanded equality?
    Then they tackled racism?

    Oh the horror!
    This trendy vicar phase of yours is achingly embarrassing. Truly mind-numbing posts defending the indefensible.
    Pulling down statues of people that should be regarded as criminals is entirely defensible.

    Why anyone would care more about statues than violence against people is beyond me.
    Even when it is a criminal act? They didn't get what they wanted through the democratic process, so took things into their own hands.
    Yes non violent criminal protests have been part of civil protests throughout all of human history.

    Were the Suffragettes wrong for their illegal protests?
    Was the Boston Tea Party the wrong thing to do because it was illegal?
    Was Rosa Parks in the wrong for refusing to obey Jim Crow laws.
    Was Ghandi wrong to break laws in resistance.

    Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.

    If a protest is illegal but you think it's the right thing to do then I think you should do what is right, even if it isn't legal. I am not a law and order obsessive I believe in what is right over what is legal.

    If a majority is enforcing a bad law that you want to protest then do it. If the majority want to put the statue back up afterwards they can do so.
    The difference is, we are a democracy with universal suffrage and a free media

    To take your examples

    1. The suffragettes were protesting for the vote, they did not have the vote, they had no choice
    2. The Tea Party was literally a protest against Taxation minus Representation
    3. The Jim Crow laws were overt discrimination by law
    4. Gandhi was protesting an imperial conquest of his country

    None of these examples have any relevance now. A campaign to get rid of the statue had many avenues to democratic success. Just one clever artwork might have done it. The resistance is feeble. He was a slaver.

    Instead they tore it down in exultant anger and now we have the makings of a culture war. Well done. Moron
    They're all relevant they're all illegal in their day but were part of changing the culture.

    We still today have rampant discrimination and evil ongoing that matters far more than some civil disorder.

    In a hundred years time pulling down statues of slavers may be viewed like Rosa Parks on a bus and the generations of the future will be confused why it took so long to remove slavers statues (which were only put up AFTER we knew slavery was wrong and it had been abolished).
    Uh?
    Which part went over your head or are you struggling with?
    The part where you suddenly have the writing and reasoning capability of an averagely bright 7 year old.

    Rosa Parks? Jeez. If she has any surviving family they should sue.
    Rosa Parks acted illegally.
    So did those pulling down slavers statues.

    The law is not the be all and end all. Never has been.
    Sort of understand your Cummings position now. Left field but consistent. Kudos.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    I am uncomfortable with the mob pulling down statues. Where does it end?

    Washington owned slaves. Are they going to pull down the obelisk?
This discussion has been closed.