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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The case for making “personality” ratings a good electoral ind

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  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    Why did they go off for bad light?!!!! Arggghhhhh!

    (If you have no idea what I'm talking about, this must be very confusing)
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    humbugger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This does not surprise me

    However, not sure it changes anything
    It doesn’t, but I don’t think there’s anything immediate on the horizon that is going to give the Government much popularity. If anything, everything on the horizon will be negative - job losses, austerity, tax rises, more death...
    Re-opening the pubs and restaurants may well give the government a quick win in popularity. But you are right that management of the economy will test it.

    Having said that, sooner or later Starmer will have to tell voters what he believes in and what policies will flow from that. His Brexit policy was disastrous, and he'll have to do better. He'll need an attractive and distinctive policy programme and be able to keep his party together behind it. Not easy.

    He also needs to sound interesting. When a nation needs inspiring worthy but dull will probably not be enough.
    Starmer's Brexit policy might be viewed differently if we crash out in December and see what flows from that.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    CatMan said:

    Why did they go off for bad light?!!!! Arggghhhhh!

    (If you have no idea what I'm talking about, this must be very confusing)

    England, West Indies, bad light? Is this the disastrous 1984 Lord's Test?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    CatMan said:

    Why did they go off for bad light?!!!! Arggghhhhh!

    (If you have no idea what I'm talking about, this must be very confusing)

    This is the famous declaration test, isn't it? David Gower's never lived it down.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    kinabalu said:

    Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

    It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

    On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

    Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060


    England, West Indies, bad light? Is this the disastrous 1984 Lord's Test?

    tlg86 said:


    This is the famous declaration test, isn't it? David Gower's never lived it down.

    Yes, BBC2 just showed the highlights.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    It's not happening. Once in a generation remember.

    Don't tell malcolmg 😊
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Ave_it said:

    Foxy said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Closer, and closer.

    https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1269326346930569222

    Waits for Survation etc..

    Con 314 seats, Lab 253

    NOM beckons, Starmer on a Corbyn 2017 result, but that is before tactical voting...
    You are getting as bad as HYUFD
    LAB will be ahead soon.

    That will get CHB excited!
    Let's not peak too early, this is a marathon not a sprint.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Foxy said:

    incidentally have the PB Tories seen this reverse ferret yet? Or is it just evidence of cabinet members not speaking to each other?

    twitter.com/SpaJw/status/1269293571527659520?s=09

    'We have always been at war with poor food standards'
    This does not, of course, mean anything. All it says is that we will maintain our currents unless Parliament changes them.... as in a Trade Deal that requires us to lower our standards.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    'Only', lol.

    That would be the 2 parties that make up the current indy ref II majority.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,600
    CatMan said:

    Why did they go off for bad light?!!!! Arggghhhhh!

    (If you have no idea what I'm talking about, this must be very confusing)

    Maybe the batsman were feeling exhausted and wanted a rest.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    CatMan said:


    England, West Indies, bad light? Is this the disastrous 1984 Lord's Test?

    tlg86 said:


    This is the famous declaration test, isn't it? David Gower's never lived it down.

    Yes, BBC2 just showed the highlights.
    Do you mean the slightly less low points, or were you posting from a West Indian perspective?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    tlg86 said:

    CatMan said:

    Why did they go off for bad light?!!!! Arggghhhhh!

    (If you have no idea what I'm talking about, this must be very confusing)

    This is the famous declaration test, isn't it? David Gower's never lived it down.
    Nor should he - Gower should have declared much later and at least tried to scrape a draw!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    So...

    Every year, big investment banks hire people to be traders. Often with little more than a degree and a big ego, these people are given "lines" of perhaps $20m to trade.

    Some of these traders immerse themselves in R, Python, Excel and Bloomberg and search constantly for signals. Does the movement of some asset class predict later movement in another? Staring at screens for days and weeks, they always find *something*.

    The inverse of the Baltic dry index, predicts - with 83% certainty - the movement of the NASDAQ three days later.

    The young trader leans back from his terminal, a grin on his face. He's found it. The holy grail. A signal that can turn his $20m into $30m in the next year and guarantee him a massive bonus.

    That night, the trader gets very drunk and bores his girlfriend with tales of his genius.

    The next day, the strategy is implemented.

    But there's something wrong. Instead of making money, the trader is losing it. He isn't worried, mind. In 17% of cases, the NASDAQ doesn't behave as it should. He doubles down to make sure that he benefits from the inevitable snap back.

    It doesn't snap back. The signal isn't working. The trader gets jumpy. Works late hours. And finally discovers the problem. If the yield on the index of US municipal bonds is inverted between 3 and 5 years, then the signal doesn't work.

    Relief floods him. It was just an aberration, and he didn't realise about the munis, but he does now.

    He readjusts his trading programme to take account of the new additional signal.

    But what is this? It still doesn't work.

    And our new trader gets fired, having lost $1m of his $20m in just 12 weeks.

    Why this story?

    Beware of extrapolation from small datasets. Just because there has been correlation between some type polling and a particular result, or between two unconnected asset classes, doesn't mean there's any kind of causal relationship.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    'Only', lol.

    That would be the 2 parties that make up the current indy ref II majority.
    However all the voters will blame SNP for the Scottish care home fiasco so those parties won't be in a majority post 2021
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:


    England, West Indies, bad light? Is this the disastrous 1984 Lord's Test?

    tlg86 said:


    This is the famous declaration test, isn't it? David Gower's never lived it down.

    Yes, BBC2 just showed the highlights.
    Do you mean the slightly less low points, or were you posting from a West Indian perspective?
    Good point :confounded:
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    'Only', lol.

    That would be the 2 parties that make up the current indy ref II majority.
    Pride comes before a fall
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020
    Dickhead...just doing their job, why should they be subjected to every twat doing this. How would Owen like it, if i did this constantly outside his window when he was trying to write a column.

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1269202840364421121?s=19
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    'Only', lol.

    That would be the 2 parties that make up the current indy ref II majority.
    Pride comes before a fall
    They dont currently look set for a fall, though hope springs eternal.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    The planet's biggest twat strikes again...

    https://twitter.com/StewartWood/status/1269340932924674050
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    CatMan said:

    ydoethur said:

    CatMan said:


    England, West Indies, bad light? Is this the disastrous 1984 Lord's Test?

    tlg86 said:


    This is the famous declaration test, isn't it? David Gower's never lived it down.

    Yes, BBC2 just showed the highlights.
    Do you mean the slightly less low points, or were you posting from a West Indian perspective?
    Good point :confounded:
    For those who need reminding, here is a summary of Greenidge’s famous assault:

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/22742328/most-savage-test-innings
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited June 2020

    Dickhead...just doing their job, why should they be subjected to every twat doing this. How would Owen like it, if i did this constantly outside his window when he was trying to write a column.

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1269202840364421121?s=19

    Jones is a ****

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1269209978189107201
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Owen Jones in “being a bellend” shocker.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    Certainly agree with this from an article in 'The Atlantic'
    Some people say that the election will be close - I wouldn't now be surprised if Trump loses badly. They don't mention that Snapchat, used mainly by young people, also dowgraded Trump.

    "Twitter’s decision to label Trump’s posts as misleading was a hinge moment. For years, the company had provided the president with a platform for propaganda and a mechanism for cowing his enemies, a fact that long irked both critics outside Twitter and employees within. Only when Trump used Twitter to threaten violence against the protests did the company finally limit the ability of users to see or share a tweet.

    Once Twitter applied its rules to Trump—and received accolades for its decision—it inadvertently set a precedent. The company had stood strong against the bully, and showed that there was little price to pay for the choice. A large swath of S&P 500 companies soon calculated that it was better to stand in solidarity with the protests, rather than wait for their employees to angrily pressure them to act.

    A cycle of noncooperation was set in motion. Local governments were the next layer of the elite to buck Trump’s commands. After the president insisted that governors “dominate” the streets on his behalf, they roundly refused to escalate their response. Indeed, New York and Virginia rebuffed a federal request to send National Guard troops to Washington, D.C."
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/how-regime-change-happens/612739/
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    The R in Portugal?

    https://twitter.com/JoanaRamiroUK/status/1269309402546352128

    I am an optimist and think/hope dark matter immunity will make this irrelevant. But if that's wrong??
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    kinabalu said:

    Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

    It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

    On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

    Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.
    Though if Scotland has independence by the time of the next rUK GE, I cannot see that playing well for the Tories.

    A Lab SNP coalition/Confidence and Supply may not be that scary to English voters. Ms Sturgeon is well thought of South of the border, in a way that Salmond never was.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,600
    CatMan said:

    Anyone know what the weather forecast is for London 36 years ago?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up4N4BXoDi8
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Ave_it said:

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    'Only', lol.

    That would be the 2 parties that make up the current indy ref II majority.
    However all the voters will blame SNP for the Scottish care home fiasco so those parties won't be in a majority post 2021
    Piling on the 5/6 against the SNP getting an outright majority are we?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited June 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    So...

    Every year, big investment banks hire people to be traders. Often with little more than a degree and a big ego, these people are given "lines" of perhaps $20m to trade.

    Some of these traders immerse themselves in R, Python, Excel and Bloomberg and search constantly for signals. Does the movement of some asset class predict later movement in another? Staring at screens for days and weeks, they always find *something*.

    The inverse of the Baltic dry index, predicts - with 83% certainty - the movement of the NASDAQ three days later.

    The young trader leans back from his terminal, a grin on his face. He's found it. The holy grail. A signal that can turn his $20m into $30m in the next year and guarantee him a massive bonus.

    That night, the trader gets very drunk and bores his girlfriend with tales of his genius.

    The next day, the strategy is implemented.

    But there's something wrong. Instead of making money, the trader is losing it. He isn't worried, mind. In 17% of cases, the NASDAQ doesn't behave as it should. He doubles down to make sure that he benefits from the inevitable snap back.

    It doesn't snap back. The signal isn't working. The trader gets jumpy. Works late hours. And finally discovers the problem. If the yield on the index of US municipal bonds is inverted between 3 and 5 years, then the signal doesn't work.

    Relief floods him. It was just an aberration, and he didn't realise about the munis, but he does now.

    He readjusts his trading programme to take account of the new additional signal.

    But what is this? It still doesn't work.

    And our new trader gets fired, having lost $1m of his $20m in just 12 weeks.

    Why this story?

    Beware of extrapolation from small datasets. Just because there has been correlation between some type polling and a particular result, or between two unconnected asset classes, doesn't mean there's any kind of causal relationship.

    Get with the algos grandad. Machine learning means you often don't know how signals work and the big traders don't care.

    ETA based on the Jim Simons book.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited June 2020

    The R in Portugal?

    https://twitter.com/JoanaRamiroUK/status/1269309402546352128

    I am an optimist and think/hope dark matter immunity will make this irrelevant. But if that's wrong??

    I blame Dom......

    To be fair, Portugal have faired quite well. Much better than most of western europe.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    I'll tell you what I think is inevitable: One day there will be an election that results in a hung parliaments leading to a Labour-SNP coalition. It was inevitable that eventually the Lib Dems would hold the balance of power and so it came to pass in 2010. Eventually we'll get Labour-SNP in power. Quite how that will turn out I don't know.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    tlg86 said:

    Dickhead...just doing their job, why should they be subjected to every twat doing this. How would Owen like it, if i did this constantly outside his window when he was trying to write a column.

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1269202840364421121?s=19

    Jones is a ****

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1269209978189107201
    Apparently it's France. And an old video...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    edited June 2020

    kinabalu said:

    Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

    It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

    On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

    Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.
    Some good points. However, the "undersized constituencies in Urban areas and Wales."
    This is not as bad for Labour this time as usual.
    Many of these are in North and Central Wales, PC and Tory in general. The difference in Wales may be as small as one seat. A lot of the depopulating places are Red Wall seats. Northumberland, Durham, Cumbria, the Black Country all stand to lose out. Places the Tories did well in.
    Meanwhile London and Greater Manchester gain. The South East gains, but this is not uniformly good for the Tories, particularly if some cities lose outer rural wards.
    It may turn out to be only a handful of net gains.
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 437
    On topic.

    Surely, though, a charismatic incumbent PM whose shine's rubbed off ALWAYS gets knocked out by a competent but boring member of the ruling group:

    May after Cameron
    Brown after Blair:
    Major after Thatcher
    Callaghan after Wilson
    Home after Mac
    Mac after Eden (these two Tory "charismatics" are relative)
    Eden after Churchill
    Baldwin after Ramsay Mac

    And that nothing kills charisma faster than incompetence. How else could Heath beat Wilson? Or Attlee beat Churchill (whose 1945 campaign made May look like a campaigning genius)?

    Nothing's changed lately. If history tells us anything, it's that Johnson will get kicked out during this Parliament by someone like Hunt or May, who'll then lose the election to the other party.

    Whose leader won't need charisma: just competence. Which Starmer - against ANY Tory except Sunak - will be seen to have in spades, as long as he doesn't do anything between now and then.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    humbugger said:

    kinabalu said:

    Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

    With all due respect, I find it hard to believe anybody can predict the result of a GE 4 years away. If a week is a long time in politics 4 years is an eternity.
    You're right of course. Tories do need a miracle though. What a shower!
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Ave_it said:

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    'Only', lol.

    That would be the 2 parties that make up the current indy ref II majority.
    However all the voters will blame SNP for the Scottish care home fiasco so those parties won't be in a majority post 2021
    This makes the cardinal error of assuming that all the voters who are avidly pro-independence, think the SNP is best for Scotland or both will start marching off to other parties over dead old people, or anything else. They'll ignore the problem, find a reason to blame it on Westminster, or conclude that any other alternative Scottish Government would've handled the situation worse.

    I think that the SNP has a decent chance of winning outright, and failing that there's a strong likelihood of a pro-independence majority thanks to the Greens, as occurred last time. Those parties are bound to campaign on manifestos incorporating a demand for Indyref2, at which point the fun and games really kick off.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Ave_it said:

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    'Only', lol.

    That would be the 2 parties that make up the current indy ref II majority.
    However all the voters will blame SNP for the Scottish care home fiasco so those parties won't be in a majority post 2021
    Piling on the 5/6 against the SNP getting an outright majority are we?
    I have no need to bet old boy 😊
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    rcs1000 said:

    So...

    Every year, big investment banks hire people to be traders. Often with little more than a degree and a big ego, these people are given "lines" of perhaps $20m to trade.

    Some of these traders immerse themselves in R, Python, Excel and Bloomberg and search constantly for signals. Does the movement of some asset class predict later movement in another? Staring at screens for days and weeks, they always find *something*.

    The inverse of the Baltic dry index, predicts - with 83% certainty - the movement of the NASDAQ three days later.

    The young trader leans back from his terminal, a grin on his face. He's found it. The holy grail. A signal that can turn his $20m into $30m in the next year and guarantee him a massive bonus.

    That night, the trader gets very drunk and bores his girlfriend with tales of his genius.

    The next day, the strategy is implemented.

    But there's something wrong. Instead of making money, the trader is losing it. He isn't worried, mind. In 17% of cases, the NASDAQ doesn't behave as it should. He doubles down to make sure that he benefits from the inevitable snap back.

    It doesn't snap back. The signal isn't working. The trader gets jumpy. Works late hours. And finally discovers the problem. If the yield on the index of US municipal bonds is inverted between 3 and 5 years, then the signal doesn't work.

    Relief floods him. It was just an aberration, and he didn't realise about the munis, but he does now.

    He readjusts his trading programme to take account of the new additional signal.

    But what is this? It still doesn't work.

    And our new trader gets fired, having lost $1m of his $20m in just 12 weeks.

    Why this story?

    Beware of extrapolation from small datasets. Just because there has been correlation between some type polling and a particular result, or between two unconnected asset classes, doesn't mean there's any kind of causal relationship.

    Phew, that was hard work.

    You could have just pointed to the correlation between ice cream sales and the murder rate in the US. Or between sour cream sales and motorbike accidents. Or cheese sales and golf course revenues. Etc.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    I agree with Isam that the more charismatic candidate normally wins but that is not always the case eg if the bigger personality is seen as less centrist than his opponent he can lose as Kinnock did to Major in 1992 or if major domestic change is seen as needed eg when Attlee beat Churchill to found the NHS and expand the welfare state in 1945 or if the economy is seen to be performing poorly as when Heath beat Wilson in 1970.

    Starmer's best hope is probably to be a dull British Francois Hollande to Boris' charismatic Sarkozy, Hollande narrowly beating Sarkozy in 2012 after 17 years of centre right rule in the Elysee and after the economic crash of 2008
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So...

    Every year, big investment banks hire people to be traders. Often with little more than a degree and a big ego, these people are given "lines" of perhaps $20m to trade.

    Some of these traders immerse themselves in R, Python, Excel and Bloomberg and search constantly for signals. Does the movement of some asset class predict later movement in another? Staring at screens for days and weeks, they always find *something*.

    The inverse of the Baltic dry index, predicts - with 83% certainty - the movement of the NASDAQ three days later.

    The young trader leans back from his terminal, a grin on his face. He's found it. The holy grail. A signal that can turn his $20m into $30m in the next year and guarantee him a massive bonus.

    That night, the trader gets very drunk and bores his girlfriend with tales of his genius.

    The next day, the strategy is implemented.

    But there's something wrong. Instead of making money, the trader is losing it. He isn't worried, mind. In 17% of cases, the NASDAQ doesn't behave as it should. He doubles down to make sure that he benefits from the inevitable snap back.

    It doesn't snap back. The signal isn't working. The trader gets jumpy. Works late hours. And finally discovers the problem. If the yield on the index of US municipal bonds is inverted between 3 and 5 years, then the signal doesn't work.

    Relief floods him. It was just an aberration, and he didn't realise about the munis, but he does now.

    He readjusts his trading programme to take account of the new additional signal.

    But what is this? It still doesn't work.

    And our new trader gets fired, having lost $1m of his $20m in just 12 weeks.

    Why this story?

    Beware of extrapolation from small datasets. Just because there has been correlation between some type polling and a particular result, or between two unconnected asset classes, doesn't mean there's any kind of causal relationship.

    Phew, that was hard work.

    You could have just pointed to the correlation between ice cream sales and the murder rate in the US. Or between sour cream sales and motorbike accidents. Or cheese sales and golf course revenues. Etc.
    Ice cream sales and murder rate probably do correlate as the temperature rises.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    tlg86 said:

    Dickhead...just doing their job, why should they be subjected to every twat doing this. How would Owen like it, if i did this constantly outside his window when he was trying to write a column.

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1269202840364421121?s=19

    Jones is a ****

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1269209978189107201
    He's usually OK. I like most of his stuff.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898


    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.

    To be fair, Governments can lose a lot of seats. Major lost 40 in 1992, Home lost 61 in 1964, Wilson lost 75 in 1970 while Brown shipped 97 in 2010 and of course Major leads the way with his 165-170 losses (depending on boundaries) in 1997.

    Losing 40-50 seats isn't unprecedented and tonight's polls suggest in the region of 40-50 losses for the Conservatives on current numbers which would leave them as largest party but short of a majority.

    As for Starmer, I confess I like him. I can see him as Prime Minister greeting the American or Chinese President on the steps of No.10 in a way I couldn't with Corbyn or even Ed M.

    However, he has yet to fully establish control over the Party though he seems to be making giant strides toward that end. Dominating Parliament and the country are the next two tasks and he's started well with the former but it's very far from a done deal.

    I like the fact we have an effective Opposition leader who is ready to ask the awkward questions and hold the Government to scrutiny and account and we've not had that since 2015.

    Where I have yet to be convinced is what an incoming Labour Government in May 2024 will look like, what its leading policies will be and what its direction of travel for the country looks like. That needs to be more than re-hashed Blairism and needs to be what the centre-left (arguably) has lacked since 2008 - a clear and effective programme for the economic and social improvement of the country and its people.

    I don't believe the centre-left has formulated an effective response to the events of 2008 and since or recognised how the impact of globalisation and the failure of the centre-left economic model after 2008 empowered the new generation of populists.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Scott_xP said:
    Quite a big 4.5% swing from Tory to Labour on that new Opinium poll tonight.

    It would see Labour pick up 46 seats on UNS, with the Tories losing their majority and falling to just 316 seats, although still largest party.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So...

    Every year, big investment banks hire people to be traders. Often with little more than a degree and a big ego, these people are given "lines" of perhaps $20m to trade.

    Some of these traders immerse themselves in R, Python, Excel and Bloomberg and search constantly for signals. Does the movement of some asset class predict later movement in another? Staring at screens for days and weeks, they always find *something*.

    The inverse of the Baltic dry index, predicts - with 83% certainty - the movement of the NASDAQ three days later.

    The young trader leans back from his terminal, a grin on his face. He's found it. The holy grail. A signal that can turn his $20m into $30m in the next year and guarantee him a massive bonus.

    That night, the trader gets very drunk and bores his girlfriend with tales of his genius.

    The next day, the strategy is implemented.

    But there's something wrong. Instead of making money, the trader is losing it. He isn't worried, mind. In 17% of cases, the NASDAQ doesn't behave as it should. He doubles down to make sure that he benefits from the inevitable snap back.

    It doesn't snap back. The signal isn't working. The trader gets jumpy. Works late hours. And finally discovers the problem. If the yield on the index of US municipal bonds is inverted between 3 and 5 years, then the signal doesn't work.

    Relief floods him. It was just an aberration, and he didn't realise about the munis, but he does now.

    He readjusts his trading programme to take account of the new additional signal.

    But what is this? It still doesn't work.

    And our new trader gets fired, having lost $1m of his $20m in just 12 weeks.

    Why this story?

    Beware of extrapolation from small datasets. Just because there has been correlation between some type polling and a particular result, or between two unconnected asset classes, doesn't mean there's any kind of causal relationship.

    Phew, that was hard work.

    You could have just pointed to the correlation between ice cream sales and the murder rate in the US. Or between sour cream sales and motorbike accidents. Or cheese sales and golf course revenues. Etc.
    To be fair to @isam, the people running parties think this matters. That's why the Labour Party arranged at photo opportunity of Ed eating a bacon sandwich.
  • BantermanBanterman Posts: 287
    Scott_xP said:
    Our left wing broadcasting media will be very happy tonight. All that anti government propaganda appears to having an impact.

    Watch out for 3 solid weeks on anti Brexit propaganda from now on.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So...

    Every year, big investment banks hire people to be traders. Often with little more than a degree and a big ego, these people are given "lines" of perhaps $20m to trade.

    Some of these traders immerse themselves in R, Python, Excel and Bloomberg and search constantly for signals. Does the movement of some asset class predict later movement in another? Staring at screens for days and weeks, they always find *something*.

    The inverse of the Baltic dry index, predicts - with 83% certainty - the movement of the NASDAQ three days later.

    The young trader leans back from his terminal, a grin on his face. He's found it. The holy grail. A signal that can turn his $20m into $30m in the next year and guarantee him a massive bonus.

    That night, the trader gets very drunk and bores his girlfriend with tales of his genius.

    The next day, the strategy is implemented.

    But there's something wrong. Instead of making money, the trader is losing it. He isn't worried, mind. In 17% of cases, the NASDAQ doesn't behave as it should. He doubles down to make sure that he benefits from the inevitable snap back.

    It doesn't snap back. The signal isn't working. The trader gets jumpy. Works late hours. And finally discovers the problem. If the yield on the index of US municipal bonds is inverted between 3 and 5 years, then the signal doesn't work.

    Relief floods him. It was just an aberration, and he didn't realise about the munis, but he does now.

    He readjusts his trading programme to take account of the new additional signal.

    But what is this? It still doesn't work.

    And our new trader gets fired, having lost $1m of his $20m in just 12 weeks.

    Why this story?

    Beware of extrapolation from small datasets. Just because there has been correlation between some type polling and a particular result, or between two unconnected asset classes, doesn't mean there's any kind of causal relationship.

    Phew, that was hard work.

    You could have just pointed to the correlation between ice cream sales and the murder rate in the US. Or between sour cream sales and motorbike accidents. Or cheese sales and golf course revenues. Etc.
    To be fair to @isam, the people running parties think this matters. That's why the Labour Party arranged at photo opportunity of Ed eating a bacon sandwich.
    Eh?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2020
    dr_spyn said:

    Closer, and closer.

    https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1269326346930569222

    Waits for Survation etc..

    Both polls out tonight, Survation and Opinium would see a hung parliament, Tories largest party but probably a majority for a single market type deal with the EU
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Interesting header @isam, but a few questions follow.

    First, does Boris have a personality, or an act? Who was it who did the piece about being at a couple of awards dos and seeing BoJo do the same routine, word for word and tic for tic? The act might wear pretty thin- like old time music hall acts on the telly.

    Next, will Boris make it to 2024? Right now, he looks pretty unwell and pretty unhappy.

    Finally, you make a good point about first name recognition. Maggie had it, though Blair didn't need it really. SKS does by definition; he's Sir Keir. The Sir-ness puts a bit of distance, I'm sure. But I was struck by a report on this week's PMQs which described them as Sir Keir and Mr Johnson. Which one sounds bigger, more Prime Ministerial?

    Thank you

    I tried to take away my own subjective views on personality by relying on the IPSOS-MORI polls. They have Boris 64-30 ahead of Starmer, that's a bigger lead than any other clash bar Boris vs Corbyn, and at a time when Sir Keir has overtaken him on favourability.

    Yes, if he doesn't make it to 2024, Sir Keir will not be next PM as another Tory will likely replace Boris. That's one of the bets I suggested - lay Starmer next PM

    I dont know that a knighthood makes one sound more Prime Ministerial. There's not been a knight as PM in my lifetime. But the article was all about the public's perception of their personalities, and unless "this time it's different" Sir Keir has a lot to do on that front
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So...

    Every year, big investment banks hire people to be traders. Often with little more than a degree and a big ego, these people are given "lines" of perhaps $20m to trade.

    Some of these traders immerse themselves in R, Python, Excel and Bloomberg and search constantly for signals. Does the movement of some asset class predict later movement in another? Staring at screens for days and weeks, they always find *something*.

    The inverse of the Baltic dry index, predicts - with 83% certainty - the movement of the NASDAQ three days later.

    The young trader leans back from his terminal, a grin on his face. He's found it. The holy grail. A signal that can turn his $20m into $30m in the next year and guarantee him a massive bonus.

    That night, the trader gets very drunk and bores his girlfriend with tales of his genius.

    The next day, the strategy is implemented.

    But there's something wrong. Instead of making money, the trader is losing it. He isn't worried, mind. In 17% of cases, the NASDAQ doesn't behave as it should. He doubles down to make sure that he benefits from the inevitable snap back.

    It doesn't snap back. The signal isn't working. The trader gets jumpy. Works late hours. And finally discovers the problem. If the yield on the index of US municipal bonds is inverted between 3 and 5 years, then the signal doesn't work.

    Relief floods him. It was just an aberration, and he didn't realise about the munis, but he does now.

    He readjusts his trading programme to take account of the new additional signal.

    But what is this? It still doesn't work.

    And our new trader gets fired, having lost $1m of his $20m in just 12 weeks.

    Why this story?

    Beware of extrapolation from small datasets. Just because there has been correlation between some type polling and a particular result, or between two unconnected asset classes, doesn't mean there's any kind of causal relationship.

    Phew, that was hard work.

    You could have just pointed to the correlation between ice cream sales and the murder rate in the US. Or between sour cream sales and motorbike accidents. Or cheese sales and golf course revenues. Etc.
    Ice cream sales and murder rate probably do correlate as the temperature rises.
    All of those are actual correlations, that’s the point.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So...

    Every year, big investment banks hire people to be traders. Often with little more than a degree and a big ego, these people are given "lines" of perhaps $20m to trade.

    Some of these traders immerse themselves in R, Python, Excel and Bloomberg and search constantly for signals. Does the movement of some asset class predict later movement in another? Staring at screens for days and weeks, they always find *something*.

    The inverse of the Baltic dry index, predicts - with 83% certainty - the movement of the NASDAQ three days later.

    The young trader leans back from his terminal, a grin on his face. He's found it. The holy grail. A signal that can turn his $20m into $30m in the next year and guarantee him a massive bonus.

    That night, the trader gets very drunk and bores his girlfriend with tales of his genius.

    The next day, the strategy is implemented.

    But there's something wrong. Instead of making money, the trader is losing it. He isn't worried, mind. In 17% of cases, the NASDAQ doesn't behave as it should. He doubles down to make sure that he benefits from the inevitable snap back.

    It doesn't snap back. The signal isn't working. The trader gets jumpy. Works late hours. And finally discovers the problem. If the yield on the index of US municipal bonds is inverted between 3 and 5 years, then the signal doesn't work.

    Relief floods him. It was just an aberration, and he didn't realise about the munis, but he does now.

    He readjusts his trading programme to take account of the new additional signal.

    But what is this? It still doesn't work.

    And our new trader gets fired, having lost $1m of his $20m in just 12 weeks.

    Why this story?

    Beware of extrapolation from small datasets. Just because there has been correlation between some type polling and a particular result, or between two unconnected asset classes, doesn't mean there's any kind of causal relationship.

    Phew, that was hard work.

    You could have just pointed to the correlation between ice cream sales and the murder rate in the US. Or between sour cream sales and motorbike accidents. Or cheese sales and golf course revenues. Etc.
    To be fair to @isam, the people running parties think this matters. That's why the Labour Party arranged at photo opportunity of Ed eating a bacon sandwich.
    Eh?
    Sorry, I know you weren't necessarily criticising isam's piece. What I'm saying is that the correlation of personality/charisma and electoral success isn't automatically unrelated in the way that your examples obviously are.
  • There will be poll parity soon!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Foxy said:

    Starmer doesn't need to win, just to prevent the Tories from winning.

    I think the charisma factor is largely retrospective. If Ed Miliband had beaten Dave Cameron, wouldn't he have been seen as charismatic?

    I think that is largely true. Blair was often referred to as Bambi in the early days. Blair's confidence grew as Major's government imploded, and as you indicate charisma came on the back of success in 1997.

    Starmer's personal ratings are currently ascending on the back of his clinical and withering victories overJohnson at PMQs. The fact that he can think before he speaks will demonstrate he is serious rather than casual and flippant. Starmer's confidence will rise should the government start to fail over the longer term. The time may also be right by 2024 for a grown up rather than a man-child-stand-up comedian. Starmer looks the part and will grow into the role.

    As for Tories claiming Jess Phillips or Lisa Nandy would be running away with the polls had they won the leadership race. I don't believe them. Much as I rate Phillips and Mandy, Tory supporters would be calling them out for their regional accents, which would demonstrate a lack of intelligence, a lack of social standing or just a demonstration of their general ignorance, irrespective of personal or educational achievement. I can say this as someone with a thick West Midlands accent, which however hard I have tried to shake it off it remains and has been a millstone throughout my career. Conversely any success would categorise them as champagne socialists.
    I wouldn't say I am a Tory, and I haven't heard any people who are Tories say Nandy or Phillips would be running away with the polls had they won.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

    It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

    On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

    Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.
    Though if Scotland has independence by the time of the next rUK GE, I cannot see that playing well for the Tories.

    A Lab SNP coalition/Confidence and Supply may not be that scary to English voters. Ms Sturgeon is well thought of South of the border, in a way that Salmond never was.
    On the first point - I'm not sure it hurts the Tories that much. There may be a large cohort of English public opinion that would be distraught at the departure of Scotland but I'd be surprised. Scotland isn't a possession, and the United Kingdom as a structure is in long-term decline.

    On the second, the jury's out. Sturgeon was already in charge in 2015 and the Tories seemed to be able to make political capital out of portraying EdM as being in her pocket back then. Yes, she polls reasonably well because she is well presented, and most voters outside of Scotland know next-to-nothing of her Government or its policies (independence aside) and do not have to live under them, but the West Lothian Question applies at this point. If a substantial number of English voters conclude that they object to the Scottish Nationalists having a controlling stake in their Government, when they themselves have very little say anymore in what happens in Scotland, then that could be damaging to Labour's chances.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So...

    Every year, big investment banks hire people to be traders. Often with little more than a degree and a big ego, these people are given "lines" of perhaps $20m to trade.

    Some of these traders immerse themselves in R, Python, Excel and Bloomberg and search constantly for signals. Does the movement of some asset class predict later movement in another? Staring at screens for days and weeks, they always find *something*.

    The inverse of the Baltic dry index, predicts - with 83% certainty - the movement of the NASDAQ three days later.

    The young trader leans back from his terminal, a grin on his face. He's found it. The holy grail. A signal that can turn his $20m into $30m in the next year and guarantee him a massive bonus.

    That night, the trader gets very drunk and bores his girlfriend with tales of his genius.

    The next day, the strategy is implemented.

    But there's something wrong. Instead of making money, the trader is losing it. He isn't worried, mind. In 17% of cases, the NASDAQ doesn't behave as it should. He doubles down to make sure that he benefits from the inevitable snap back.

    It doesn't snap back. The signal isn't working. The trader gets jumpy. Works late hours. And finally discovers the problem. If the yield on the index of US municipal bonds is inverted between 3 and 5 years, then the signal doesn't work.

    Relief floods him. It was just an aberration, and he didn't realise about the munis, but he does now.

    He readjusts his trading programme to take account of the new additional signal.

    But what is this? It still doesn't work.

    And our new trader gets fired, having lost $1m of his $20m in just 12 weeks.

    Why this story?

    Beware of extrapolation from small datasets. Just because there has been correlation between some type polling and a particular result, or between two unconnected asset classes, doesn't mean there's any kind of causal relationship.

    Phew, that was hard work.

    You could have just pointed to the correlation between ice cream sales and the murder rate in the US. Or between sour cream sales and motorbike accidents. Or cheese sales and golf course revenues. Etc.
    To be fair to @isam, the people running parties think this matters. That's why the Labour Party arranged at photo opportunity of Ed eating a bacon sandwich.
    Eh?
    Sorry, I know you weren't necessarily criticising isam's piece. What I'm saying is that the correlation of personality/charisma and electoral success isn't automatically unrelated in the way that your examples obviously are.
    I suggest you posted your comment under the wrong thread?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Good header Isam! Of course personality plays a big role, and Boris has it while Keir is a bit lacking in that department.
    But the rivalry between them reminds me of that between Churchill, who had the personality (and had just emerged as a victorious war leader), and Attlee who was also a bit lacking in that department.
    Yet which was the winner in 1945?
  • Superb polls for Keir. He has nearly recovered the loss from GE17 to GE19 now
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    nico67 said:

    Starmer might be seen as dull but after 5 years of the Bozo clown show voters might be happy to have a serious , non-grandstanding politician in no 10.

    He's submerged his submarine as well
    Don't interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.

    Starmar is making plans, and popcorn, I expect...
    Letter writing and avoiding making any decisions

    Lets see what he has to say about today
    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1269197488554156032?s=19

    Actually this isn't my first PB header. I wrote one in 2010 titled "Cool Hand Ed" suggesting Miliband do what people are suggesting Starmer does now - sit and watch while Cameron/Boris trip themselves up. The problem with that was no one knew what Ed stood for when it came to the crunch

    https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/category/general/page/27/
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So...

    Every year, big investment banks hire people to be traders. Often with little more than a degree and a big ego, these people are given "lines" of perhaps $20m to trade.

    Some of these traders immerse themselves in R, Python, Excel and Bloomberg and search constantly for signals. Does the movement of some asset class predict later movement in another? Staring at screens for days and weeks, they always find *something*.

    The inverse of the Baltic dry index, predicts - with 83% certainty - the movement of the NASDAQ three days later.

    The young trader leans back from his terminal, a grin on his face. He's found it. The holy grail. A signal that can turn his $20m into $30m in the next year and guarantee him a massive bonus.

    That night, the trader gets very drunk and bores his girlfriend with tales of his genius.

    The next day, the strategy is implemented.

    But there's something wrong. Instead of making money, the trader is losing it. He isn't worried, mind. In 17% of cases, the NASDAQ doesn't behave as it should. He doubles down to make sure that he benefits from the inevitable snap back.

    It doesn't snap back. The signal isn't working. The trader gets jumpy. Works late hours. And finally discovers the problem. If the yield on the index of US municipal bonds is inverted between 3 and 5 years, then the signal doesn't work.

    Relief floods him. It was just an aberration, and he didn't realise about the munis, but he does now.

    He readjusts his trading programme to take account of the new additional signal.

    But what is this? It still doesn't work.

    And our new trader gets fired, having lost $1m of his $20m in just 12 weeks.

    Why this story?

    Beware of extrapolation from small datasets. Just because there has been correlation between some type polling and a particular result, or between two unconnected asset classes, doesn't mean there's any kind of causal relationship.

    Phew, that was hard work.

    You could have just pointed to the correlation between ice cream sales and the murder rate in the US. Or between sour cream sales and motorbike accidents. Or cheese sales and golf course revenues. Etc.
    Ice cream sales and murder rate probably do correlate as the temperature rises.
    All of those are actual correlations, that’s the point.
    Cheese sales and golf course revenues?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    dr_spyn said:
    The two most recent polls have the two narrowest Con leads since the GE.

    In the thread, the words "Sir Keir will not be the next PM" seem a tad overly confident.
    I have said for a long time it is impossible to know how GE 24 will play out
    If Richard Burgon had entered and won the Labour leadership contest, I could tell you with some confidence Labour won't win.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    They continue with their death wish, will be challenging Tories for best Panda act.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    alex_ said:

    tlg86 said:

    Dickhead...just doing their job, why should they be subjected to every twat doing this. How would Owen like it, if i did this constantly outside his window when he was trying to write a column.

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1269202840364421121?s=19

    Jones is a ****

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1269209978189107201
    Apparently it's France. And an old video...
    yeah, its clearly not the UK.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So...

    Every year, big investment banks hire people to be traders. Often with little more than a degree and a big ego, these people are given "lines" of perhaps $20m to trade.

    Some of these traders immerse themselves in R, Python, Excel and Bloomberg and search constantly for signals. Does the movement of some asset class predict later movement in another? Staring at screens for days and weeks, they always find *something*.

    The inverse of the Baltic dry index, predicts - with 83% certainty - the movement of the NASDAQ three days later.

    The young trader leans back from his terminal, a grin on his face. He's found it. The holy grail. A signal that can turn his $20m into $30m in the next year and guarantee him a massive bonus.

    That night, the trader gets very drunk and bores his girlfriend with tales of his genius.

    The next day, the strategy is implemented.

    But there's something wrong. Instead of making money, the trader is losing it. He isn't worried, mind. In 17% of cases, the NASDAQ doesn't behave as it should. He doubles down to make sure that he benefits from the inevitable snap back.

    It doesn't snap back. The signal isn't working. The trader gets jumpy. Works late hours. And finally discovers the problem. If the yield on the index of US municipal bonds is inverted between 3 and 5 years, then the signal doesn't work.

    Relief floods him. It was just an aberration, and he didn't realise about the munis, but he does now.

    He readjusts his trading programme to take account of the new additional signal.

    But what is this? It still doesn't work.

    And our new trader gets fired, having lost $1m of his $20m in just 12 weeks.

    Why this story?

    Beware of extrapolation from small datasets. Just because there has been correlation between some type polling and a particular result, or between two unconnected asset classes, doesn't mean there's any kind of causal relationship.

    Phew, that was hard work.

    You could have just pointed to the correlation between ice cream sales and the murder rate in the US. Or between sour cream sales and motorbike accidents. Or cheese sales and golf course revenues. Etc.
    Ice cream sales and murder rate probably do correlate as the temperature rises.
    All of those are actual correlations, that’s the point.
    Cheese sales and golf course revenues?
    Spookily correlated:

    https://tylervigen.com/view_correlation?id=341
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    stodge said:


    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.

    To be fair, Governments can lose a lot of seats. Major lost 40 in 1992, Home lost 61 in 1964, Wilson lost 75 in 1970 while Brown shipped 97 in 2010 and of course Major leads the way with his 165-170 losses (depending on boundaries) in 1997.

    Losing 40-50 seats isn't unprecedented and tonight's polls suggest in the region of 40-50 losses for the Conservatives on current numbers which would leave them as largest party but short of a majority.

    As for Starmer, I confess I like him. I can see him as Prime Minister greeting the American or Chinese President on the steps of No.10 in a way I couldn't with Corbyn or even Ed M.

    However, he has yet to fully establish control over the Party though he seems to be making giant strides toward that end. Dominating Parliament and the country are the next two tasks and he's started well with the former but it's very far from a done deal.

    I like the fact we have an effective Opposition leader who is ready to ask the awkward questions and hold the Government to scrutiny and account and we've not had that since 2015.

    Where I have yet to be convinced is what an incoming Labour Government in May 2024 will look like, what its leading policies will be and what its direction of travel for the country looks like. That needs to be more than re-hashed Blairism and needs to be what the centre-left (arguably) has lacked since 2008 - a clear and effective programme for the economic and social improvement of the country and its people.

    I don't believe the centre-left has formulated an effective response to the events of 2008 and since or recognised how the impact of globalisation and the failure of the centre-left economic model after 2008 empowered the new generation of populists.
    After Corbyn I'm just relieved that we have a Labour leader who doesn't terrify me. Beyond that, it is far, far too early to make any judgments about Starmer's potential efficacy. But yes, there are 45 seats available to Labour on a 4% swing or less so his coming into office off the back of support from a smorgasbord of non-Tory MPs is an eminently achievable target.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    They continue with their death wish, will be challenging Tories for best Panda act.
    Ave_it said:

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    It's not happening. Once in a generation remember.

    Don't tell malcolmg 😊
    Don't ave it , you are a dinosaur , it is coming only a matter of time.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

    It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

    On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

    Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.
    Though if Scotland has independence by the time of the next rUK GE, I cannot see that playing well for the Tories.

    A Lab SNP coalition/Confidence and Supply may not be that scary to English voters. Ms Sturgeon is well thought of South of the border, in a way that Salmond never was.
    On the first point - I'm not sure it hurts the Tories that much. There may be a large cohort of English public opinion that would be distraught at the departure of Scotland but I'd be surprised. Scotland isn't a possession, and the United Kingdom as a structure is in long-term decline.

    On the second, the jury's out. Sturgeon was already in charge in 2015 and the Tories seemed to be able to make political capital out of portraying EdM as being in her pocket back then. Yes, she polls reasonably well because she is well presented, and most voters outside of Scotland know next-to-nothing of her Government or its policies (independence aside) and do not have to live under them, but the West Lothian Question applies at this point. If a substantial number of English voters conclude that they object to the Scottish Nationalists having a controlling stake in their Government, when they themselves have very little say anymore in what happens in Scotland, then that could be damaging to Labour's chances.
    Surely the main point is that Sturgeon (or, more likely, her successor) would demand indyref2 as the price of a coalition, of any kind, with PM manque Starmer

    And he would have to refuse in case the referendum was lost.
    There will have been a referendum before that ever happens
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

    It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

    On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

    Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.
    Though if Scotland has independence by the time of the next rUK GE, I cannot see that playing well for the Tories.

    A Lab SNP coalition/Confidence and Supply may not be that scary to English voters. Ms Sturgeon is well thought of South of the border, in a way that Salmond never was.
    On the first point - I'm not sure it hurts the Tories that much. There may be a large cohort of English public opinion that would be distraught at the departure of Scotland but I'd be surprised. Scotland isn't a possession, and the United Kingdom as a structure is in long-term decline.

    On the second, the jury's out. Sturgeon was already in charge in 2015 and the Tories seemed to be able to make political capital out of portraying EdM as being in her pocket back then. Yes, she polls reasonably well because she is well presented, and most voters outside of Scotland know next-to-nothing of her Government or its policies (independence aside) and do not have to live under them, but the West Lothian Question applies at this point. If a substantial number of English voters conclude that they object to the Scottish Nationalists having a controlling stake in their Government, when they themselves have very little say anymore in what happens in Scotland, then that could be damaging to Labour's chances.
    Surely the main point is that Sturgeon (or, more likely, her successor) would demand indyref2 as the price of a coalition, of any kind, with PM manque Starmer

    And he would have to refuse in case the referendum was lost.
    Starmer would return the UK to the single market, leaving near zero chance of Yes winning indyref2 anyway
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    eadric said:
    The UK is well and truly F****d. Run by minority of woke halfwits
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    malcolmg said:

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    They continue with their death wish, will be challenging Tories for best Panda act.
    Ave_it said:

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    It's not happening. Once in a generation remember.

    Don't tell malcolmg 😊
    Don't ave it , you are a dinosaur , it is coming only a matter of time.
    In about 20 years Malcolm as permitted by London!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Teargas and pepper spray will accelerate spread of Covid-19, doctors warn - as crowds protest across the US, more than 1,000 medical experts raise fears police tactics could worsen the pandemic.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    'Only', lol.

    That would be the 2 parties that make up the current indy ref II majority.
    However all the voters will blame SNP for the Scottish care home fiasco so those parties won't be in a majority post 2021
    Piling on the 5/6 against the SNP getting an outright majority are we?
    I have no need to bet old boy 😊
    COWARD
  • Keir is the man and I wet myself a bit
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

    It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

    On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

    Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.
    Though if Scotland has independence by the time of the next rUK GE, I cannot see that playing well for the Tories.

    A Lab SNP coalition/Confidence and Supply may not be that scary to English voters. Ms Sturgeon is well thought of South of the border, in a way that Salmond never was.
    On the first point - I'm not sure it hurts the Tories that much. There may be a large cohort of English public opinion that would be distraught at the departure of Scotland but I'd be surprised. Scotland isn't a possession, and the United Kingdom as a structure is in long-term decline.

    On the second, the jury's out. Sturgeon was already in charge in 2015 and the Tories seemed to be able to make political capital out of portraying EdM as being in her pocket back then. Yes, she polls reasonably well because she is well presented, and most voters outside of Scotland know next-to-nothing of her Government or its policies (independence aside) and do not have to live under them, but the West Lothian Question applies at this point. If a substantial number of English voters conclude that they object to the Scottish Nationalists having a controlling stake in their Government, when they themselves have very little say anymore in what happens in Scotland, then that could be damaging to Labour's chances.
    Surely the main point is that Sturgeon (or, more likely, her successor) would demand indyref2 as the price of a coalition, of any kind, with PM manque Starmer

    And he would have to refuse in case the referendum was lost.
    There will have been a referendum before that ever happens
    There will be no referendum while the Tories are in government at least until after the next general election
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    'Only', lol.

    That would be the 2 parties that make up the current indy ref II majority.
    However all the voters will blame SNP for the Scottish care home fiasco so those parties won't be in a majority post 2021
    Piling on the 5/6 against the SNP getting an outright majority are we?
    I have no need to bet old boy 😊
    You've found the right site then!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Banterman said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Our left wing broadcasting media will be very happy tonight. All that anti government propaganda appears to having an impact.

    Watch out for 3 solid weeks on anti Brexit propaganda from now on.
    Haven't you noticed? Brexit happened 4 months ago. All we are discussing now is the duration of transition and ultimate destination.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    malcolmg said:

    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    'Only', lol.

    That would be the 2 parties that make up the current indy ref II majority.
    However all the voters will blame SNP for the Scottish care home fiasco so those parties won't be in a majority post 2021
    Piling on the 5/6 against the SNP getting an outright majority are we?
    I have no need to bet old boy 😊
    COWARD
    I am hiding under the table 😄
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    nichomar said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So...

    Every year, big investment banks hire people to be traders. Often with little more than a degree and a big ego, these people are given "lines" of perhaps $20m to trade.

    Some of these traders immerse themselves in R, Python, Excel and Bloomberg and search constantly for signals. Does the movement of some asset class predict later movement in another? Staring at screens for days and weeks, they always find *something*.

    The inverse of the Baltic dry index, predicts - with 83% certainty - the movement of the NASDAQ three days later.

    The young trader leans back from his terminal, a grin on his face. He's found it. The holy grail. A signal that can turn his $20m into $30m in the next year and guarantee him a massive bonus.

    That night, the trader gets very drunk and bores his girlfriend with tales of his genius.

    The next day, the strategy is implemented.

    But there's something wrong. Instead of making money, the trader is losing it. He isn't worried, mind. In 17% of cases, the NASDAQ doesn't behave as it should. He doubles down to make sure that he benefits from the inevitable snap back.

    It doesn't snap back. The signal isn't working. The trader gets jumpy. Works late hours. And finally discovers the problem. If the yield on the index of US municipal bonds is inverted between 3 and 5 years, then the signal doesn't work.

    Relief floods him. It was just an aberration, and he didn't realise about the munis, but he does now.

    He readjusts his trading programme to take account of the new additional signal.

    But what is this? It still doesn't work.

    And our new trader gets fired, having lost $1m of his $20m in just 12 weeks.

    Why this story?

    Beware of extrapolation from small datasets. Just because there has been correlation between some type polling and a particular result, or between two unconnected asset classes, doesn't mean there's any kind of causal relationship.

    Phew, that was hard work.

    You could have just pointed to the correlation between ice cream sales and the murder rate in the US. Or between sour cream sales and motorbike accidents. Or cheese sales and golf course revenues. Etc.
    Ice cream sales and murder rate probably do correlate as the temperature rises.
    The point is that it's the common factor - temperature - which is causal. You wouldn't be able to reduce the murder rate by banning ice cream sales.

    I think the difference here is that @isam hasn't found this link by mining the data, he had a hunch, a hypothesis first, along with a plausible set of logical steps to provide a mechanism for the effect, and then checked the data to see if it contradicted his hypothesis.

    That order of methodological steps makes the results more robust.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898


    After Corbyn I'm just relieved that we have a Labour leader who doesn't terrify me. Beyond that, it is far, far too early to make any judgments about Starmer's potential efficacy. But yes, there are 45 seats available to Labour on a 4% swing or less so his coming into office off the back of support from a smorgasbord of non-Tory MPs is an eminently achievable target.

    Labour needs to win Conservative seats, pure and simple. Taking 40-50 of those even if little else changes (and perhaps hoping the LDs can squeeze out half a dozen gains though that looks unlikely at present) puts Starmer in a much stronger position.

    He will need to succeed where Ed M failed in finessing his position via-a-vis the SNP. Starmer knows he will need SNP support to form a Government but what will be the price of that support? He can offer a second Independence Referendum but say he will campaign for Scotland to stay in the Union.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

    It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

    On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

    Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.
    Though if Scotland has independence by the time of the next rUK GE, I cannot see that playing well for the Tories.

    A Lab SNP coalition/Confidence and Supply may not be that scary to English voters. Ms Sturgeon is well thought of South of the border, in a way that Salmond never was.
    On the first point - I'm not sure it hurts the Tories that much. There may be a large cohort of English public opinion that would be distraught at the departure of Scotland but I'd be surprised. Scotland isn't a possession, and the United Kingdom as a structure is in long-term decline.

    On the second, the jury's out. Sturgeon was already in charge in 2015 and the Tories seemed to be able to make political capital out of portraying EdM as being in her pocket back then. Yes, she polls reasonably well because she is well presented, and most voters outside of Scotland know next-to-nothing of her Government or its policies (independence aside) and do not have to live under them, but the West Lothian Question applies at this point. If a substantial number of English voters conclude that they object to the Scottish Nationalists having a controlling stake in their Government, when they themselves have very little say anymore in what happens in Scotland, then that could be damaging to Labour's chances.
    Surely the main point is that Sturgeon (or, more likely, her successor) would demand indyref2 as the price of a coalition, of any kind, with PM manque Starmer

    And he would have to refuse in case the referendum was lost.
    It depends upon the prevailing circumstances by the time of the next General Election.

    If Scotland has had a second referendum and this has resulted in a victory for independence then the point is moot. Both sides will want to reach an agreement and let Scotland go on its way before the end of the current Parliamentary term.

    If Scotland has had a second referendum and the Unionist side has won again then Sturgeon will have left and her successor won't, realistically, be able to press for another re-run - even given that the Scottish political definition of "a generation" is considerably shorter than elsewhere, two or three years might be pushing it a bit.

    If, however, Scotland hasn't had a second referendum then things become very interesting. Assuming that the SNP still holds the majority of Scottish Westminster seats then it can and will press hard for the vote, and then I think Starmer would have to concede in return for their backing - although it would precipitate a major constitutional crisis were that vote to return a result for independence, because Scotland's MPs don't leave Westminster until the Union is dissolved.

    Should Starmer only be able to command a Commons majority with the help of the SNP then we could end up with the extraordinary spectacle of a UK Government propped up by SNP MPs negotiating independence with the SNP.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Banterman said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Our left wing broadcasting media will be very happy tonight. All that anti government propaganda appears to having an impact.

    Watch out for 3 solid weeks on anti Brexit propaganda from now on.
    Golly, members of the government might even be forced to appear on news progs to defend their record.
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 597
    eadric said:
    The Red Guards have taken over, the four olds must be destroyed.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

    It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

    On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

    Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.
    Though if Scotland has independence by the time of the next rUK GE, I cannot see that playing well for the Tories.

    A Lab SNP coalition/Confidence and Supply may not be that scary to English voters. Ms Sturgeon is well thought of South of the border, in a way that Salmond never was.
    On the first point - I'm not sure it hurts the Tories that much. There may be a large cohort of English public opinion that would be distraught at the departure of Scotland but I'd be surprised. Scotland isn't a possession, and the United Kingdom as a structure is in long-term decline.

    On the second, the jury's out. Sturgeon was already in charge in 2015 and the Tories seemed to be able to make political capital out of portraying EdM as being in her pocket back then. Yes, she polls reasonably well because she is well presented, and most voters outside of Scotland know next-to-nothing of her Government or its policies (independence aside) and do not have to live under them, but the West Lothian Question applies at this point. If a substantial number of English voters conclude that they object to the Scottish Nationalists having a controlling stake in their Government, when they themselves have very little say anymore in what happens in Scotland, then that could be damaging to Labour's chances.
    Surely the main point is that Sturgeon (or, more likely, her successor) would demand indyref2 as the price of a coalition, of any kind, with PM manque Starmer

    And he would have to refuse in case the referendum was lost.
    Starmer would return the UK to the single market, leaving near zero chance of Yes winning indyref2 anyway
    You keep saying this, based on nothing.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    Good to see labour in Scotland will campaign against indy 2 at Holyrood 21

    So SNP and Green only ones for second ref

    'Only', lol.

    That would be the 2 parties that make up the current indy ref II majority.
    However all the voters will blame SNP for the Scottish care home fiasco so those parties won't be in a majority post 2021
    Piling on the 5/6 against the SNP getting an outright majority are we?
    I have no need to bet old boy 😊
    You've found the right site then!
    I like to give the people on here the benefit of my considered wisdom 😊😊😊
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    HYUFD said:


    Starmer would return the UK to the single market, leaving near zero chance of Yes winning indyref2 anyway

    You've come out with this again - is this Labour policy or your characterisation of it? I've not seen anywhere Starmer saying he will try to take Britain into the Single Market. Indeed, all I've seen is his acceptance we won't rejoin the EU.

    As we don't yet know the terms on which we will end transition, it seem sodd you seem so certain of what Labour's line is or will be.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    HYUFD said:

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

    It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

    On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

    Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.
    Though if Scotland has independence by the time of the next rUK GE, I cannot see that playing well for the Tories.

    A Lab SNP coalition/Confidence and Supply may not be that scary to English voters. Ms Sturgeon is well thought of South of the border, in a way that Salmond never was.
    On the first point - I'm not sure it hurts the Tories that much. There may be a large cohort of English public opinion that would be distraught at the departure of Scotland but I'd be surprised. Scotland isn't a possession, and the United Kingdom as a structure is in long-term decline.

    On the second, the jury's out. Sturgeon was already in charge in 2015 and the Tories seemed to be able to make political capital out of portraying EdM as being in her pocket back then. Yes, she polls reasonably well because she is well presented, and most voters outside of Scotland know next-to-nothing of her Government or its policies (independence aside) and do not have to live under them, but the West Lothian Question applies at this point. If a substantial number of English voters conclude that they object to the Scottish Nationalists having a controlling stake in their Government, when they themselves have very little say anymore in what happens in Scotland, then that could be damaging to Labour's chances.
    Surely the main point is that Sturgeon (or, more likely, her successor) would demand indyref2 as the price of a coalition, of any kind, with PM manque Starmer

    And he would have to refuse in case the referendum was lost.
    Starmer would return the UK to the single market, leaving near zero chance of Yes winning indyref2 anyway
    I could believe that Starmer would want to take the UK into the single market, but, like Blair and his desire to take the UK into the Euro, I think it much more likely that he will decide it's too much trouble and will concentrate on other things.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    We’ll be on WTO terms very shortly. If everything is fine, then it’s very unlikely Starmer would rock the boat to bring us back into the Single Market. If everything is not fine, then I doubt the Single Market will be a “negative”.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Scott_xP said:
    Beth Rigby really should be placed in internment by the government. It's what we would do with these sort of people in wartime. And this is the biggest crisis since the war.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Scott_xP said:
    Its a non story, a Westminster bubble one. Johnson won at PMQs

    LOL.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    eadric said:

    malcolmg said:

    eadric said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Whilst I do think Starmer will win the next election I confess to sharing the @isam experience of watching that particular broadcast by him. He did not grab me. Indeed he lost the battle for my attention to his desk and surroundings. So he does need to work on this.

    It's far too soon to tell, but it would be truly remarkable if Labour were able to win the next General Election outright.

    On the current boundaries, seat number 123 on the Labour target list is South Ribble, with a Con maj of over 11,000 and requiring a 10.4% swing to flip; moreover, there are 16 SNP seats in the list ahead of that, and for each one of those SLAB can't win back an even safer target in England or Wales has to be converted. If Labour can't make any progress at all in Scotland (not at all beyond the bounds of possibility) then the magic target becomes Basingstoke (Con maj 14,200, 13% swing required) which has been Tory continuously since 1924. If Scotland secedes before the next GE then the new magic target becomes the slightly more achievable Stevenage (Con maj 8,500, 9% swing,) but that still requires a swing to Labour slightly in excess of the 1997 Blair landslide to achieve an absolute majority of one.

    Beyond that, we have to consider it likely that the Government will use its solid Commons majority to implement long-overdue boundary changes at some point before the next election. Whatever the outcome of such reforms, one has to presume that they are unlikely to be advantageous to Labour which has historically benefitted from holding many under-sized constituencies in urban areas and in Wales.

    A much more realistic target is, of course, to strip the Tories of their majority and govern as a minority or in a coalition; Labour doesn't even have to become the largest party to do that. However, unless Scotland has gone by then, the English Tories will then be able to weaponise the SNP against Labour in the campaign again, which may result in a situation not necessarily to Starmer's advantage.
    Though if Scotland has independence by the time of the next rUK GE, I cannot see that playing well for the Tories.

    A Lab SNP coalition/Confidence and Supply may not be that scary to English voters. Ms Sturgeon is well thought of South of the border, in a way that Salmond never was.
    On the first point - I'm not sure it hurts the Tories that much. There may be a large cohort of English public opinion that would be distraught at the departure of Scotland but I'd be surprised. Scotland isn't a possession, and the United Kingdom as a structure is in long-term decline.

    On the second, the jury's out. Sturgeon was already in charge in 2015 and the Tories seemed to be able to make political capital out of portraying EdM as being in her pocket back then. Yes, she polls reasonably well because she is well presented, and most voters outside of Scotland know next-to-nothing of her Government or its policies (independence aside) and do not have to live under them, but the West Lothian Question applies at this point. If a substantial number of English voters conclude that they object to the Scottish Nationalists having a controlling stake in their Government, when they themselves have very little say anymore in what happens in Scotland, then that could be damaging to Labour's chances.
    Surely the main point is that Sturgeon (or, more likely, her successor) would demand indyref2 as the price of a coalition, of any kind, with PM manque Starmer

    And he would have to refuse in case the referendum was lost.
    There will have been a referendum before that ever happens

    Scotland may well go Indy at some point, but it won’t be in the next four years. The Tories have nothing to lose and everything to gain by refusing a referendum, even if Sturgeon wins every seat in Holyrood.

    It cements the Tories as the party of the union in the north. It will also be quite popular with the majority of Scots who don’t want a referendum just yet. And the longer the Tories hold out the more likely Indy or the SNP will become less popular over time. All pendulums swing.

    The Tories will point blank refuse a vote. Sorry.
    This rather depends on how contrary the Scottish electorate is feeling. An awful lot of them might not mind telling the Government in Edinburgh that they don't fancy a referendum right now thank you very much, but may bristle at the Government in London telling the Government in Edinburgh the same thing on their behalf.

    If the Tories are serious about trying to hold the Union together then they will know perfectly well that there's no point in antagonising Scottish swing voters who weren't contemplating voting for independence into considering it through heavy-handed action. If there's a mood after the 2021 election that a pro-independence majority elected on pro-independence manifestos has the right to ask for another go then Johnson would be wise to concede. Trying to boot the whole issue out beyond 2024 - creating a new grievance to be milked in the process - would be a real gamble.
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