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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In praise of Boris – the cycling enthusiast

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited June 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In praise of Boris – the cycling enthusiast

What might be looked back on as one of the biggest decisions when the lockdown was being introduced in March was to include bike shops amongst the retailers that were specifically allowed to remain open. Quite what role Boris had in that move I don’t know but it is hard to see that exception being made if someone else had been elected Tory leader last year.

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Comments

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249
    First. Get a unicycle.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249
    edited June 2020
    2nd. In sympathy with Marquee Mark following the heart attack Mike just gave him :-) .
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,600
    We need more dedicated cycle lanes.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Completely OT. Not sure if this has been posted yet. Someone in Norway forgot to make the annual sacrifice to the gods.

    https://www.vgtv.no/video/197861/raset-i-alta-her-forsvinner-husene-i-havet

    Oops. Quick clay. Usually set off by someone digging or doing some ground works, which then sets off a chain reaction of liquifaction.

    For more, see a documentary on another Norwegian slide:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q-qfNlEP4A&feature=youtu.be
    That documentary is great. Not just for the science, which is really interesting, but also because no one makes documentaries like that any more. It just concentrates on the facts and does not break off evey 10 minutes to remind us what we have just seen and what we are about to see.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Boris bikes (with apologies to whoever sponsors them; is it Santander?) started life under Ken Livingstone, and he'd nicked the idea from Paris.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    Boris bikes (with apologies to whoever sponsors them; is it Santander?) started life under Ken Livingstone, and he'd nicked the idea from Paris.

    Quite a few different cities had a bike pick-up scheme before London did, not just Paris.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    I too love cycling. I was knocked off my bike in London on the way back from a job interview in the early 1980's and I see that the lovely Sophie Ellis-Bextor was taken to A&E this week for the same reason.

    I'd love to see more and more infrastructure protecting cyclists and some stringent anti-driving measures, which won't happen under the tories.

    p.s. I sold my car for environmental reasons and don't own one.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Boris bikes (with apologies to whoever sponsors them; is it Santander?) started life under Ken Livingstone, and he'd nicked the idea from Paris.

    Doesn’t make it a bad idea though.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Walk on by...

    Even when an incident might, just possibly, be framed as an accident, they just can’t help themselves.

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1268759072876224514
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    eristdoof said:

    Boris bikes (with apologies to whoever sponsors them; is it Santander?) started life under Ken Livingstone, and he'd nicked the idea from Paris.

    Quite a few different cities had a bike pick-up scheme before London did, not just Paris.
    Good morning everyone.

    Certainly seen such bikes in Bangkok, around Chulalongkorn University. Don't recall seeing anybody riding one though.
    Sadly my balance is now such that I've had to give up riding mine. Might see if I can get a tricycle, though.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    I too love cycling. I was knocked off my bike in London on the way back from a job interview in the early 1980's and I see that the lovely Sophie Ellis-Bextor was taken to A&E this week for the same reason.

    I'd love to see more and more infrastructure protecting cyclists and some stringent anti-driving measures, which won't happen under the tories.

    p.s. I sold my car for environmental reasons and don't own one.

    I do vaguely recall (but cannot find) it was suggested that Boris bikes are less likely than ordinary bikes to be involved in collisions.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Boris bikes: no good for health or the environment.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-bikes-don-t-improve-health-or-reduce-pollution-nhmrv920k

    It is possible these findings are outdated; it is a report I came across (but cannot read as it is paywalled) while unsuccessfully looking for collision statistics which iirc favour Boris bikes.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Boris bikes: no good for health or the environment.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-bikes-don-t-improve-health-or-reduce-pollution-nhmrv920k

    It is possible these findings are outdated; it is a report I came across (but cannot read as it is paywalled) while unsuccessfully looking for collision statistics which iirc favour Boris bikes.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6117721/Boris-bikes-not-good-environment-public-health.html
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    I'm planning to buy a bike and start cycling to work, if and when I start working in the office again. I've been averse up to now owing to the dangers of an accident, but I reckon the dangers from catching the train are higher now. I'm looking forward to it.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Wonders why so many people were quick to ditch the bicycle over the last 50 years.

    Given the lack of hills in Bedford, cycling isn't a problem.

    Will be interested to see where the tax revenue comes from cycling. Loss of VED, fuel duties, VAT on new cars, spares & services.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    One of the great advantages of living in this part of Staffordshire is that it has some excellent dedicated cycle routes. It’s possible to go from my house just outside Cannock all the way to Rugeley or Stafford without going on a public road once.

    Admittedly, that’s partly due to the presence of Cannock Chase. But there’s also a dedicated kerb-separated cycle route all along the A5 to Brownhills, at which point you can join a bridle way and go to Lichfield. And from Lichfield, there is a dedicated cycle route all the way to Burton.

    The great disadvantage is that it’s so hilly, so cycling long distances can take quite a time.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    ydoethur said:

    One of the great advantages of living in this part of Staffordshire is that it has some excellent dedicated cycle routes. It’s possible to go from my house just outside Cannock all the way to Rugeley or Stafford without going on a public road once.

    Admittedly, that’s partly due to the presence of Cannock Chase. But there’s also a dedicated kerb-separated cycle route all along the A5 to Brownhills, at which point you can join a bridle way and go to Lichfield. And from Lichfield, there is a dedicated cycle route all the way to Burton.

    The great disadvantage is that it’s so hilly, so cycling long distances can take quite a time.

    The German Cemetry on Cannock Chase is quite impressive.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Nigelb said:

    Walk on by...

    Even when an incident might, just possibly, be framed as an accident, they just can’t help themselves.

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1268759072876224514

    I don't know what he's trying to do with his phone there but he should have been taken by the elbow and firmly escorted back with lots of firm: "SIR!"s. Not shoved to the ground (where he subsequently develops a nasty bleeding head wound).

    I wonder if America has more of a policing problem than a racial problem sometimes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    One of the great advantages of living in this part of Staffordshire is that it has some excellent dedicated cycle routes. It’s possible to go from my house just outside Cannock all the way to Rugeley or Stafford without going on a public road once.

    Admittedly, that’s partly due to the presence of Cannock Chase. But there’s also a dedicated kerb-separated cycle route all along the A5 to Brownhills, at which point you can join a bridle way and go to Lichfield. And from Lichfield, there is a dedicated cycle route all the way to Burton.

    The great disadvantage is that it’s so hilly, so cycling long distances can take quite a time.

    The German Cemetry on Cannock Chase is quite impressive.
    That’s on one of my favourite cycle routes, well, two of them. You can either swing around the south edge, in which case you’re on the Sherbrook Valley trail for Milford or Rugeley (which is a stunningly beautiful ride) or you can cut back towards the Katyn memorial in which case you return to Brocton and there’s a cycle route via Acton Trussell to Penkridge or Stafford.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Nigelb said:
    It's the lack of self-discipline that worries me.

    I'm sure they are richly provoked and insulted, but dealing with that is part of the job and it's far rarer for British police to do this.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Now we have high blood pressure and being bald as additional risk factors for suffering the worse form of the infection.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Cycling is good. I make only three points.

    (1) MAMIL cyclists are really annoying. Like BMW drivers on bikes. I'd like to see far more family cycling
    (2) Many roads need to be graded and separated better, from both pedestrians and vehicles - particularly lorries and buses - to be safe.
    (3) Security. Bike security is poor (even the best locks) and there aren't enough boxes or lockers at stations. There need to be more and thefts dealt with far more firmly, with bikes tracked better for recovery.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    IanB2 said:

    Now we have high blood pressure and being bald as additional risk factors for suffering the worse form of the infection.

    I’m in real trouble...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    We shipped more slaves across the Atlantic than anyone except the Portuguese. The "moral imperative" consisted of imposing christianity on people who were doing fine without it, and the slave trade was expressly approved of by the Church on the grounds that the loss of liberty created an opportunity for conversion. There is no need to feel guilty about this because we are not our ancestors, but it isn't anything to be proud of.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Nigelb said:

    Walk on by...

    Even when an incident might, just possibly, be framed as an accident, they just can’t help themselves.

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1268759072876224514

    I don't know what he's trying to do with his phone there but he should have been taken by the elbow and firmly escorted back with lots of firm: "SIR!"s. Not shoved to the ground (where he subsequently develops a nasty bleeding head wound).

    I wonder if America has more of a policing problem than a racial problem sometimes.
    More likely a consequence of the stark political divide that defines almost everything in the US nowadays. The police are mostly us and the demonstrators are mostly them (or vice versa). The lack of self control on the
    police side shown here is shocking and hopefully action will follow.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    I was hopeful that Johnson as PM would be a boost to cycling. If he'd been a PM in normal times, without Brexit or the virus, there's a good chance that it would have been how he was remembered. Not so much chance as the PM who illegally closed Parliament and then fell ill of the virus he failed to keep the country safe from.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    Let's pretend, for a moment, that most of the last four years didn't happen...

    "All hail Boris the cycling King!"
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Johnson has never had a bike that wasn't utterly shit and rides s-l-o-w-l-y. As a flahute I find it hard to identify with him as a cyclist.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Let's pretend, for a moment, that most of the last four years didn't happen...

    "All hail Boris the cycling King!"

    Instead, the slogan might be ‘chain him up.’
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    I'm planning to buy a bike and start cycling to work, if and when I start working in the office again. I've been averse up to now owing to the dangers of an accident, but I reckon the dangers from catching the train are higher now. I'm looking forward to it.

    The way to avoid an accident on a bike is to think that every car has not seen you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    I'm planning to buy a bike and start cycling to work, if and when I start working in the office again. I've been averse up to now owing to the dangers of an accident, but I reckon the dangers from catching the train are higher now. I'm looking forward to it.

    The way to avoid an accident on a bike is to think that every car has not seen you.
    Especially if you’re on the main road to Barnard Castle.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    IanB2 said:

    I too love cycling. I was knocked off my bike in London on the way back from a job interview in the early 1980's and I see that the lovely Sophie Ellis-Bextor was taken to A&E this week for the same reason.

    I'd love to see more and more infrastructure protecting cyclists and some stringent anti-driving measures, which won't happen under the tories.

    p.s. I sold my car for environmental reasons and don't own one.

    That must be the slowest ambulance response ever.
    I was idly wondering if she got the job....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    IanB2 said:

    I too love cycling. I was knocked off my bike in London on the way back from a job interview in the early 1980's and I see that the lovely Sophie Ellis-Bextor was taken to A&E this week for the same reason.

    I'd love to see more and more infrastructure protecting cyclists and some stringent anti-driving measures, which won't happen under the tories.

    p.s. I sold my car for environmental reasons and don't own one.

    That must be the slowest ambulance response ever.
    Has to be said the grammar police have come to the fore as a result of those signs in Ludlow. First Hyufd and now s...er, MysticRose.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Now we have high blood pressure and being bald as additional risk factors for suffering the worse form of the infection.

    I’m in real trouble...
    If they ever add eds to the list I will be really in trouble!!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:
    My guess is that they had been told repeatedly to stay behind the path and the crowd was pushing forward. But clearly the police officer’s actions were unjustified
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    edited June 2020
    Nigelb said:
    Don't watch the video but look at the vehicles in the background. They illustrate what has gone wrong with American policing: its militarisation. Giving police forces military surplus vehicles and equipment is bound to end in tears. If your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    And we see the same problem on a smaller scale in Britain. Kettling non-violent demonstrations. Tasering anything that moves. Thank heavens the Metropolitan Police were denied the use of water cannon by our greatest Prime Minister of the past ten years! :wink:
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's pretty difficult (and probably pointless) to say very much about whether countries would have been better off today without the "benefits" of being ruled from a European capital, as hardly anywhere in the world wasn't at some point.

    But Japan and Thailand are two examples, are they better or worse off than their neighbours who "benefited" from European rule?

    In any case, anyone mentioning "railways" as a benefit of the British empire always strikes me as very silly. You do realise there are trains running in countries that were never ruled by Britain?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I'm planning to buy a bike and start cycling to work, if and when I start working in the office again. I've been averse up to now owing to the dangers of an accident, but I reckon the dangers from catching the train are higher now. I'm looking forward to it.

    The way to avoid an accident on a bike is to think that every car has not seen you.
    No car sees a cyclist.

    The drivers, however...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited June 2020
    Charles said:

    I'm planning to buy a bike and start cycling to work, if and when I start working in the office again. I've been averse up to now owing to the dangers of an accident, but I reckon the dangers from catching the train are higher now. I'm looking forward to it.

    The way to avoid an accident on a bike is to think that every car has not seen you.
    No car sees a cyclist.

    The drivers, however...
    ...don't either?

    I'd hope these new driverless jobbies make some sort of effort.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    dr_spyn said:

    Wonders why so many people were quick to ditch the bicycle over the last 50 years.

    Given the lack of hills in Bedford, cycling isn't a problem.

    Will be interested to see where the tax revenue comes from cycling. Loss of VED, fuel duties, VAT on new cars, spares & services.

    Think you will find it is down to cars, the way people drive and think that they are allowed to cut up cyclists, dive within mm of them etc and therefore the chance of being splattered by halfwits that has put people off. That and too many burgers , chips, pizzas etc
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    kamski said:

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's pretty difficult (and probably pointless) to say very much about whether countries would have been better off today without the "benefits" of being ruled from a European capital, as hardly anywhere in the world wasn't at some point.

    But Japan and Thailand are two examples, are they better or worse off than their neighbours who "benefited" from European rule?

    In any case, anyone mentioning "railways" as a benefit of the British empire always strikes me as very silly. You do realise there are trains running in countries that were never ruled by Britain?
    The Russian railway system was largely built using a British technology and engineers, including quite a lot of imported British steel.

    In fact one of the Tsars paid a South Walian ironmaster a huge sum to go to Russia and set up a steel industry.

    Which would tend to support your point.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    I was hopeful that Johnson as PM would be a boost to cycling. If he'd been a PM in normal times, without Brexit or the virus, there's a good chance that it would have been how he was remembered. Not so much chance as the PM who illegally closed Parliament and then fell ill of the virus he failed to keep the country safe from.

    Imagining fantasies will not make it even remotely likely. Anyone with any functioning braincells would have known he was going to be a carcrash as PM, the man is and always has been a lazy lying no-user.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Charles said:

    I'm planning to buy a bike and start cycling to work, if and when I start working in the office again. I've been averse up to now owing to the dangers of an accident, but I reckon the dangers from catching the train are higher now. I'm looking forward to it.

    The way to avoid an accident on a bike is to think that every car has not seen you.
    No car sees a cyclist.

    The drivers, however...
    Wrong way round. We cannot do much for drivers reliant on the mark one human eyeball. Cars, on the other hand, can, and already are at the pricey end of the newly reopened showrooms, be given infra-red sensors to detect bikes in front or in blind spots.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Nigelb said:

    Walk on by...

    Even when an incident might, just possibly, be framed as an accident, they just can’t help themselves.

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1268759072876224514

    I don't know what he's trying to do with his phone there but he should have been taken by the elbow and firmly escorted back with lots of firm: "SIR!"s. Not shoved to the ground (where he subsequently develops a nasty bleeding head wound).

    I wonder if America has more of a policing problem than a racial problem sometimes.
    Having been an away supporter in Milan, Naples, Marseille, Istanbul, Zagreb, and Paris, I can assure you that some police forces in Europe are equally belligerent.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    It depends who you mean by 'we'. My ancestors were busy chipping away at underground coal seams for next to nothing. In later generations my
    Welsh miner ancesters were in lockstep with Paul Robeson. I daresay they had no idea how their cigarettes, sugar and cotton clothing arrived in their possession.

    If 'we' means those with an ancestry of Bristol slave traders, by all means don't beat yourselves up over the misdeeds of your forefathers, but neither
    do you have cause to celebrate their dubious "achievements".

    Back on topic. If cycling were to be the most memorable legacy of the Johnson Premiership then the nation will be in a much happier state than it is in now. I am not holding my breath.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Looks like the IOW contact App won't now be fully working nationally until October
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    IshmaelZ said:

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    We shipped more slaves across the Atlantic than anyone except the Portuguese. The "moral imperative" consisted of imposing christianity on people who were doing fine without it, and the slave trade was expressly approved of by the Church on the grounds that the loss of liberty created an opportunity for conversion. There is no need to feel guilty about this because we are not our ancestors, but it isn't anything to be proud of.
    They also had lots of help from the locals who ran the business at that end. Also the clowns who benefited also did same to the ordinary people as well, ancestors still running this country , as they sent plenty of Scots at least as slaves to USA.
    It is pathetic to expect people to feel guilty about something some rich punters did hundreds of years ago and is typical of the state of the morons in this country nowadays. What next will it be pick a century and select your evil in it. Just as today a small handful of greedy people make the money out of anything they can.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    IshmaelZ said:

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    We shipped more slaves across the Atlantic than anyone except the Portuguese. The "moral imperative" consisted of imposing christianity on people who were doing fine without it, and the slave trade was expressly approved of by the Church on the grounds that the loss of liberty created an opportunity for conversion. There is no need to feel guilty about this because we are not our ancestors, but it isn't anything to be proud of.
    No-ones arguing we should be proud of it and indeed plenty weren't at the time. That's why a campaign to abolish it succeeded in the pre-mass democratic age against prevailing economic interests of the time.

    We had a pivotal role because we were the preeminent maritime trading nation at that point in history, and used that position to then subsequently repress it, so that's no reason to amplify guilt in my view.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    It depends who you mean by 'we'. My ancestors were busy chipping away at underground coal seams for next to nothing. In later generations my
    Welsh miner ancesters were in lockstep with Paul Robeson. I daresay they had no idea how their cigarettes, sugar and cotton clothing arrived in their possession.

    If 'we' means those with an ancestry of Bristol slave traders, by all means don't beat yourselves up over the misdeeds of your forefathers, but neither
    do you have cause to celebrate their dubious "achievements".

    Back on topic. If cycling were to be the most memorable legacy of the Johnson Premiership then the nation will be in a much happier state than it is in now. I am not holding my breath.
    “We” were quite successful merchants (invented the Demerara sugar brand and chaired the east India company)
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    My bike had been in mothballs for a year until the lockdown started. I've ridden further during this than I ever had done - cycling is fun! Yes you can fall off - I did on Tuesday - but so far the reduced amount of traffic has meant that I haven't felt threatened at any point when riding on the roads.

    What does this have to do with Boris and his Livingstone Bikes? Nothing. I wouldn't ride one or any bile in London if you paid me. And the CS routes? Not exactly well planned / built...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    malcolmg said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Wonders why so many people were quick to ditch the bicycle over the last 50 years.

    Given the lack of hills in Bedford, cycling isn't a problem.

    Will be interested to see where the tax revenue comes from cycling. Loss of VED, fuel duties, VAT on new cars, spares & services.

    Think you will find it is down to cars, the way people drive and think that they are allowed to cut up cyclists, dive within mm of them etc and therefore the chance of being splattered by halfwits that has put people off. That and too many burgers , chips, pizzas etc
    That - and shit British weather.

    In Scotland, you can cycle with the attendant perils of either hypothermia or a respiratory tract constantly full of midge.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Charles said:

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    It depends who you mean by 'we'. My ancestors were busy chipping away at underground coal seams for next to nothing. In later generations my
    Welsh miner ancesters were in lockstep with Paul Robeson. I daresay they had no idea how their cigarettes, sugar and cotton clothing arrived in their possession.

    If 'we' means those with an ancestry of Bristol slave traders, by all means don't beat yourselves up over the misdeeds of your forefathers, but neither
    do you have cause to celebrate their dubious "achievements".

    Back on topic. If cycling were to be the most memorable legacy of the Johnson Premiership then the nation will be in a much happier state than it is in now. I am not holding my breath.
    “We” were quite successful merchants (invented the Demerara sugar brand and chaired the east India company)
    Please don't feel you need to "beat yourself up" over it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    It depends who you mean by 'we'. My ancestors were busy chipping away at underground coal seams for next to nothing. In later generations my
    Welsh miner ancesters were in lockstep with Paul Robeson. I daresay they had no idea how their cigarettes, sugar and cotton clothing arrived in their possession.

    If 'we' means those with an ancestry of Bristol slave traders, by all means don't beat yourselves up over the misdeeds of your forefathers, but neither
    do you have cause to celebrate their dubious "achievements".

    Back on topic. If cycling were to be the most memorable legacy of the Johnson Premiership then the nation will be in a much happier state than it is in now. I am not holding my breath.
    Yes, one of my points was that life wasn't all that rosy in the UK too as you describe. It's this central white privilege and black repression point that grates with me. It's far more complicated than that.

    What's the bit I do celebrate? Spreading liberal democratic institutions around the world.

    Countries like the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, modern India, Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong wouldn't exist without the British empire, and it is for that I am grateful for.

    I think our record in Ireland, the Middle East and North Africa is less exemplary. And we lost the plot a bit in South Africa, which could have gone much better and didn't need to go over to an Afrikaner reverse takeover.

    So, like most things in history, complex and mixed. You have to judge it in the round and based upon what the alternatives were at the time, as well as critiquing wrongdoings and what could have been better.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Two years ago now my daughter had an Erasmus year in Groningen where she caught the cycling bug. I had the experience of driving in Groningen having taken a car load of stuff over with her. It brought home to me how radically different their attitude to cycling is from anything I have seen in the UK.
    Most of the minor roads were adapted in a way that made me, as a car driver, feel extremely unwelcome. Indeed I was constantly anxious that I should not be where I was. The road surface, furniture, narrowing, obstacles etc all made it feel as if the road was more of a path. I drove extremely slowly and gave way to everything, as I believe you were supposed to. The consequence was that unless you were using the vehicle to transport anything heavy it really added nothing to the pace of the journey. Bikes were clearly quicker but it was also noteworthy that the cyclists were quite traditional upright bikes, not the sort of boy racers that plague our cities. Because they too were slower they worked in with the pedestrians more safely.
    On the larger roads there were cycle lanes which had their own filters and turns on traffic lights etc. It was well beyond what I have seen in the UK where the "cycle path" is all too often a 1m wide strip that cars intrude into all too casually.
    If we have anything like this in the UK I have not seen it. It is a psychological change. The benefits for the local population were evident. Obesity was very rare and the air quality was remarkably different. I find bikes on our current roads a nuisance to be frank. I get irritated when they weave through lines of traffic, ignore traffic lights and constantly swing from lane to lane. But things can be different. Very different.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    kamski said:

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's pretty difficult (and probably pointless) to say very much about whether countries would have been better off today without the "benefits" of being ruled from a European capital, as hardly anywhere in the world wasn't at some point.

    But Japan and Thailand are two examples, are they better or worse off than their neighbours who "benefited" from European rule?

    In any case, anyone mentioning "railways" as a benefit of the British empire always strikes me as very silly. You do realise there are trains running in countries that were never ruled by Britain?
    It's not silly at all. Infrastructure development is very important to a nations modern development. And there are plenty of nations were similar networks weren't developed, such as in sub-saharan Africa and parts of South America, that subsequently suffered from arrested economic development as a consequence.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Walk on by...

    Even when an incident might, just possibly, be framed as an accident, they just can’t help themselves.

    https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1268759072876224514

    I don't know what he's trying to do with his phone there but he should have been taken by the elbow and firmly escorted back with lots of firm: "SIR!"s. Not shoved to the ground (where he subsequently develops a nasty bleeding head wound).

    I wonder if America has more of a policing problem than a racial problem sometimes.
    More likely a consequence of the stark political divide that defines almost everything in the US nowadays. The police are mostly us and the demonstrators are mostly them (or vice versa). The lack of self control on the
    police side shown here is shocking and hopefully action will follow.
    That's coming here too. Political divided are creeping into the workplace too and corporations.

    I keep my mouth shut.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    It depends who you mean by 'we'. My ancestors were busy chipping away at underground coal seams for next to nothing. In later generations my
    Welsh miner ancesters were in lockstep with Paul Robeson. I daresay they had no idea how their cigarettes, sugar and cotton clothing arrived in their possession.

    If 'we' means those with an ancestry of Bristol slave traders, by all means don't beat yourselves up over the misdeeds of your forefathers, but neither
    do you have cause to celebrate their dubious "achievements".

    Back on topic. If cycling were to be the most memorable legacy of the Johnson Premiership then the nation will be in a much happier state than it is in now. I am not holding my breath.
    Yes, one of my points was that life wasn't all that rosy in the UK too as you describe. It's this central white privilege and black repression point that grates with me. It's far more complicated than that.

    What's the bit I do celebrate? Spreading liberal democratic institutions around the world.

    Countries like the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, modern India, Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong wouldn't exist without the British empire, and it is for that I am grateful for.

    I think our record in Ireland, the Middle East and North Africa is less exemplary. And we lost the plot a bit in South Africa, which could have gone much better and didn't need to go over to an Afrikaner reverse takeover.

    So, like most things in history, complex and mixed. You have to judge it in the round and based upon what the alternatives were at the time, as well as critiquing wrongdoings and what could have been better.
    Our American colonies were an idea that now appears to be getting a bit out of hand.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    It depends who you mean by 'we'. My ancestors were busy chipping away at underground coal seams for next to nothing. In later generations my
    Welsh miner ancesters were in lockstep with Paul Robeson. I daresay they had no idea how their cigarettes, sugar and cotton clothing arrived in their possession.

    If 'we' means those with an ancestry of Bristol slave traders, by all means don't beat yourselves up over the misdeeds of your forefathers, but neither
    do you have cause to celebrate their dubious "achievements".

    Back on topic. If cycling were to be the most memorable legacy of the Johnson Premiership then the nation will be in a much happier state than it is in now. I am not holding my breath.
    Yes, one of my points was that life wasn't all that rosy in the UK too as you describe. It's this central white privilege and black repression point that grates with me. It's far more complicated than that.

    What's the bit I do celebrate? Spreading liberal democratic institutions around the world.

    Countries like the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, modern India, Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong wouldn't exist without the British empire, and it is for that I am grateful for.

    I think our record in Ireland, the Middle East and North Africa is less exemplary. And we lost the plot a bit in South Africa, which could have gone much better and didn't need to go over to an Afrikaner reverse takeover.

    So, like most things in history, complex and mixed. You have to judge it in the round and based upon what the alternatives were at the time, as well as critiquing wrongdoings and what could have been better.
    Perhaps my forefathers are not as innocent as I suggest, it wasn't all pit ponies, canaries and Davy lamps in my family. My great grandfather was an engineer, a copper smelter, from Swansea. He ventured into South Africa, Northern Rhodesia and the Belgian Congo in the 1900s, so I am probably without associated
    guilt. My understanding was that as he relaxed in the Conservative Club in Llanelli his big takeaway was his utter disdain for the Missionaries.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    IanB2 said:

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    It depends who you mean by 'we'. My ancestors were busy chipping away at underground coal seams for next to nothing. In later generations my
    Welsh miner ancesters were in lockstep with Paul Robeson. I daresay they had no idea how their cigarettes, sugar and cotton clothing arrived in their possession.

    If 'we' means those with an ancestry of Bristol slave traders, by all means don't beat yourselves up over the misdeeds of your forefathers, but neither
    do you have cause to celebrate their dubious "achievements".

    Back on topic. If cycling were to be the most memorable legacy of the Johnson Premiership then the nation will be in a much happier state than it is in now. I am not holding my breath.
    Yes, one of my points was that life wasn't all that rosy in the UK too as you describe. It's this central white privilege and black repression point that grates with me. It's far more complicated than that.

    What's the bit I do celebrate? Spreading liberal democratic institutions around the world.

    Countries like the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, modern India, Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong wouldn't exist without the British empire, and it is for that I am grateful for.

    I think our record in Ireland, the Middle East and North Africa is less exemplary. And we lost the plot a bit in South Africa, which could have gone much better and didn't need to go over to an Afrikaner reverse takeover.

    So, like most things in history, complex and mixed. You have to judge it in the round and based upon what the alternatives were at the time, as well as critiquing wrongdoings and what could have been better.
    Our American colonies were an idea that now appears to be getting a bit out of hand.
    Funny, but America has been a remarkable success.

    I think in South Africa we should have kept developing just Cape colony, which includes the diamond mines, as a multiracial liberal democracy - even if it started off with a property qualification - and not fought so hard to integrate the Boer republics.

    I think they would have then changed and joined in time and we'd now be in a different place.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
    I remember at the age of 9 or thereabouts being taught about the slave triangle (GB to Africa to Caribbean to GB) purely as an economic phenomenon - not even lip service paid to the possibility that moral questions were involved. I now find that extraordinary.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    IanB2 said:

    Looks like the IOW contact App won't now be fully working nationally until October

    Fixed that for you...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    It depends who you mean by 'we'. My ancestors were busy chipping away at underground coal seams for next to nothing. In later generations my
    Welsh miner ancesters were in lockstep with Paul Robeson. I daresay they had no idea how their cigarettes, sugar and cotton clothing arrived in their possession.

    If 'we' means those with an ancestry of Bristol slave traders, by all means don't beat yourselves up over the misdeeds of your forefathers, but neither
    do you have cause to celebrate their dubious "achievements".

    Back on topic. If cycling were to be the most memorable legacy of the Johnson Premiership then the nation will be in a much happier state than it is in now. I am not holding my breath.
    Yes, one of my points was that life wasn't all that rosy in the UK too as you describe. It's this central white privilege and black repression point that grates with me. It's far more complicated than that.

    What's the bit I do celebrate? Spreading liberal democratic institutions around the world.

    Countries like the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, modern India, Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong wouldn't exist without the British empire, and it is for that I am grateful for.

    I think our record in Ireland, the Middle East and North Africa is less exemplary. And we lost the plot a bit in South Africa, which could have gone much better and didn't need to go over to an Afrikaner reverse takeover.

    So, like most things in history, complex and mixed. You have to judge it in the round and based upon what the alternatives were at the time, as well as critiquing wrongdoings and what could have been better.
    Our history is what it is, for better or worse. What frustrates me are those who have no reading or understanding of the British Empire but are happy to wrap themselves in the flag and proclaim it's greatness..
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    DavidL said:

    Two years ago now my daughter had an Erasmus year in Groningen where she caught the cycling bug. I had the experience of driving in Groningen having taken a car load of stuff over with her. It brought home to me how radically different their attitude to cycling is from anything I have seen in the UK.
    Most of the minor roads were adapted in a way that made me, as a car driver, feel extremely unwelcome. Indeed I was constantly anxious that I should not be where I was. The road surface, furniture, narrowing, obstacles etc all made it feel as if the road was more of a path. I drove extremely slowly and gave way to everything, as I believe you were supposed to. The consequence was that unless you were using the vehicle to transport anything heavy it really added nothing to the pace of the journey. Bikes were clearly quicker but it was also noteworthy that the cyclists were quite traditional upright bikes, not the sort of boy racers that plague our cities. Because they too were slower they worked in with the pedestrians more safely.
    On the larger roads there were cycle lanes which had their own filters and turns on traffic lights etc. It was well beyond what I have seen in the UK where the "cycle path" is all too often a 1m wide strip that cars intrude into all too casually.
    If we have anything like this in the UK I have not seen it. It is a psychological change. The benefits for the local population were evident. Obesity was very rare and the air quality was remarkably different. I find bikes on our current roads a nuisance to be frank. I get irritated when they weave through lines of traffic, ignore traffic lights and constantly swing from lane to lane. But things can be different. Very different.

    I think that is the Boris vision
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    It depends who you mean by 'we'. My ancestors were busy chipping away at underground coal seams for next to nothing. In later generations my
    Welsh miner ancesters were in lockstep with Paul Robeson. I daresay they had no idea how their cigarettes, sugar and cotton clothing arrived in their possession.

    If 'we' means those with an ancestry of Bristol slave traders, by all means don't beat yourselves up over the misdeeds of your forefathers, but neither
    do you have cause to celebrate their dubious "achievements".

    Back on topic. If cycling were to be the most memorable legacy of the Johnson Premiership then the nation will be in a much happier state than it is in now. I am not holding my breath.
    Yes, one of my points was that life wasn't all that rosy in the UK too as you describe. It's this central white privilege and black repression point that grates with me. It's far more complicated than that.

    What's the bit I do celebrate? Spreading liberal democratic institutions around the world.

    Countries like the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, modern India, Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong wouldn't exist without the British empire, and it is for that I am grateful for.

    I think our record in Ireland, the Middle East and North Africa is less exemplary. And we lost the plot a bit in South Africa, which could have gone much better and didn't need to go over to an Afrikaner reverse takeover.

    So, like most things in history, complex and mixed. You have to judge it in the round and based upon what the alternatives were at the time, as well as critiquing wrongdoings and what could have been better.
    Perhaps my forefathers are not as innocent as I suggest, it wasn't all pit ponies, canaries and Davy lamps in my family. My great grandfather was an engineer, a copper smelter, from Swansea. He ventured into South Africa, Northern Rhodesia and the Belgian Congo in the 1900s, so I am probably without associated
    guilt. My understanding was that as he relaxed in the Conservative Club in Llanelli his big takeaway was his utter disdain for the Missionaries.
    I don't think it's fair to judge your ancestors by the standards of today.

    Who knows how we'll all shape up in years to come?
    That is true, and I do have a pride in his pioneering spirit. My point was more his absolute and total hatred of the missionaries and how they behaved. He was a good devout Welsh Congregationalist by the way.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    malcolmg said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Wonders why so many people were quick to ditch the bicycle over the last 50 years.

    Given the lack of hills in Bedford, cycling isn't a problem.

    Will be interested to see where the tax revenue comes from cycling. Loss of VED, fuel duties, VAT on new cars, spares & services.

    Think you will find it is down to cars, the way people drive and think that they are allowed to cut up cyclists, dive within mm of them etc and therefore the chance of being splattered by halfwits that has put people off. That and too many burgers , chips, pizzas etc
    That - and shit British weather.

    This is just not true. The point at which I decided to sell my car when I lived in Exeter was when I realised commuting by car instead of cycling "because it's raining" is also no fun. If you have decent rain gear then it really is not a problem.

    And winter in most of the UK is nowhere near as harsh as in Sweden, Denmark and Eastern Germany, all places where cycling is a lot more popular than in the UK.

    As DavidL pointed out, a major disincentive to cycling in the UK is that cars have de facto right of way over cyclists. In Germany all cars who want to turn have to give-way to cyclists and pedestrians who are going straight on. They will wait on the main road if a cyclist is coming from behind near the kerb, other cars behind them also have to wait. My experience in the UK is if you stop on the main road just before turning the car behind has to do an emergency stop, just because they are not expecting you to stop.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    Argh

    malcolmg said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Wonders why so many people were quick to ditch the bicycle over the last 50 years.

    Given the lack of hills in Bedford, cycling isn't a problem.

    Will be interested to see where the tax revenue comes from cycling. Loss of VED, fuel duties, VAT on new cars, spares & services.

    Think you will find it is down to cars, the way people drive and think that they are allowed to cut up cyclists, dive within mm of them etc and therefore the chance of being splattered by halfwits that has put people off. That and too many burgers , chips, pizzas etc
    That - and shit British weather.

    In Scotland, you can cycle with the attendant perils of either hypothermia or a respiratory tract constantly full of midge.
    That's a bit of a myth. The vast majority of the time the weather is fine for cycling. See, for example, this analysis (which extends beyond Ireland):

    https://www.shanelynn.ie/wet-rainy-cyling-commute-in-ireland-with-wunderground-and-python/
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    kamski said:

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's pretty difficult (and probably pointless) to say very much about whether countries would have been better off today without the "benefits" of being ruled from a European capital, as hardly anywhere in the world wasn't at some point.

    But Japan and Thailand are two examples, are they better or worse off than their neighbours who "benefited" from European rule?

    In any case, anyone mentioning "railways" as a benefit of the British empire always strikes me as very silly. You do realise there are trains running in countries that were never ruled by Britain?
    It's not silly at all. Infrastructure development is very important to a nations modern development. And there are plenty of nations were similar networks weren't developed, such as in sub-saharan Africa and parts of South America, that subsequently suffered from arrested economic development as a consequence.
    I wonder how those countries never ruled by Britain managed to build railways without being part of the British Empire then. It is totally silly.

    To me you sound exactly like Chinese government propaganda about all the wonderful progress (and yes they do always mention the railway!) Chinese rule has brought to Tibet.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    DavidL said:

    Two years ago now my daughter had an Erasmus year in Groningen where she caught the cycling bug. I had the experience of driving in Groningen having taken a car load of stuff over with her. It brought home to me how radically different their attitude to cycling is from anything I have seen in the UK.
    Most of the minor roads were adapted in a way that made me, as a car driver, feel extremely unwelcome. Indeed I was constantly anxious that I should not be where I was. The road surface, furniture, narrowing, obstacles etc all made it feel as if the road was more of a path. I drove extremely slowly and gave way to everything, as I believe you were supposed to. The consequence was that unless you were using the vehicle to transport anything heavy it really added nothing to the pace of the journey. Bikes were clearly quicker but it was also noteworthy that the cyclists were quite traditional upright bikes, not the sort of boy racers that plague our cities. Because they too were slower they worked in with the pedestrians more safely.
    On the larger roads there were cycle lanes which had their own filters and turns on traffic lights etc. It was well beyond what I have seen in the UK where the "cycle path" is all too often a 1m wide strip that cars intrude into all too casually.
    If we have anything like this in the UK I have not seen it. It is a psychological change. The benefits for the local population were evident. Obesity was very rare and the air quality was remarkably different. I find bikes on our current roads a nuisance to be frank. I get irritated when they weave through lines of traffic, ignore traffic lights and constantly swing from lane to lane. But things can be different. Very different.

    I think that is the Boris vision
    Its a good one. But it is not going to be easy to get from where we are to there.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
    I'm afraid I disagree with much of this I'm afraid. Windrush was Home Office bureaucratic pedantry over changed immigration law - not evidence of endemic racism. I can't speak for you but slavery was very clearly taught in my school and its lessons were very obvious. I'd be very careful about issue like "compensating the descendents", which has all sorts of vested self-interests in it and is ripe for abuse and creating further division.

    Good on you for admitting your past failings and learning from them. It's good of you to share that. But there is no 'white supremacy' now and hasn't been for decades.

    We need to move on from upping the ante on battles largely fought and won 30-40 years ago, and address any residual issues proportionately, or we'll fuel further culture wars in the West, you'll get another Trump (or worse) as a reaction to that and China will exploit the divisions and weaknesses as way of establishing its global domination.

    Let's move on.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    kamski said:

    kamski said:

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's pretty difficult (and probably pointless) to say very much about whether countries would have been better off today without the "benefits" of being ruled from a European capital, as hardly anywhere in the world wasn't at some point.

    But Japan and Thailand are two examples, are they better or worse off than their neighbours who "benefited" from European rule?

    In any case, anyone mentioning "railways" as a benefit of the British empire always strikes me as very silly. You do realise there are trains running in countries that were never ruled by Britain?
    It's not silly at all. Infrastructure development is very important to a nations modern development. And there are plenty of nations were similar networks weren't developed, such as in sub-saharan Africa and parts of South America, that subsequently suffered from arrested economic development as a consequence.
    I wonder how those countries never ruled by Britain managed to build railways without being part of the British Empire then. It is totally silly.

    To me you sound exactly like Chinese government propaganda about all the wonderful progress (and yes they do always mention the railway!) Chinese rule has brought to Tibet.
    The French and Germans built most of those in Africa, The Russians those in Asia,. The Brits financed most of Latin America and the Yanks built their own.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,378
    DavidL said:

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
    I broadly agree with this but we do seem to swing from one extreme to the other. When I was at school slavery was mentioned in the context of William WIlberforce, the moral superiority of us giving it up and the moral inferiority of the Confederacy for hanging on to it. When my kids studied it, it was almost exclusively about the greed, the inhumanity, the major role the UK played etc. It was every bit as unnuanced (although in fairness much closer to reality) than the nonsense I was taught. Nothing about the history of slavery in other cultures, the roles played by African tribesmen willing to sell those they had conquered and sometimes even their own people into captivity, the moral outrage in this country which slowly but ultimately successfully brought our own role to an end and the steps taken by the Navy thereafter.
    Slavery is a horrible blot on our history. It is bewildering it was ever thought morally acceptable. It was both brutal and brutalising. And it created a legacy of racism (as a means of self justification) that we still live with today.
    At my primary school (founded by Wilbeforce as it happens) and secondary school, we were taught both about abolitionism and the horrors of the Atlantic Slave trade. Like you, I could find it astonishing that people could ever have tolerated such cruelty, but then I should not really, reflection. There are people who will inflict any level of cruelty if they can profit from it. The treatment of many factory workers during the early years of the Industrial Revolution was pretty awful too.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
    I'm afraid I disagree with much of this I'm afraid. Windrush was Home Office bureaucratic pedantry over changed immigration law - not evidence of endemic racism. I can't speak for you but slavery was very clearly taught in my school and its lessons were very obvious. I'd be very careful about issue like "compensating the descendents", which has all sorts of vested self-interests in it and is ripe for abuse and creating further division.

    Good on you for admitting your past failings and learning from them. It's good of you to share that. But there is no 'white supremacy' now and hasn't been for decades.

    We need to move on from upping the ante on battles largely fought and won 30-40 years ago, and address any residual issues proportionately, or we'll fuel further culture wars in the West, you'll get another Trump (or worse) as a reaction to that and China will exploit the divisions and weaknesses as way of establishing its global domination.

    Let's move on.
    This may reflect where you personally are but it does not reflect our society. My daughter has made me think harder about this. She points out that there are many poor white kids from disadvantaged backgrounds who have most of the same problems as those who are black in this country. The one major difference is that they do not have the challenge created by the colour of their skin. That remains an issue and for so long as it does we have to accept that this is a racist society. We aspire to better but as a society we do not succeed. We cannot move on until we address this.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2020

    (2) British policy was to protect its trading interests, balance itself against other great powers, and ensure peace and stability. Yes, in its broader political and economic interests, but there was a moral imperative as well. It wasn't driven by ideological zeal to conquer and, in almost all instances, the policy was to ultimately move colonies and protectorates to self-rule - the only question being one of "readiness". Yes, there were serious social and political issues in the Empire - although I note most of these were present on the home islands as well - and they were addressed through progressive reforms throughout in the 19th and 20th Century. Was race the fault-line? In many places it was a fault-line, but not the overriding one - class was a bigger issue, which is why Gandhi and the Maharajahs could all be educated in Britain. The Brits weren't ideological about race nor proto-Nazis and it's insulting to suggest we were. And there was a healthy debate about the ethics, values, and issues of Empire throughout.

    So, forgive me if I'm a little sceptical of claims we invented racism and are responsible for all the world's ills today. The world would be a darker place had it not been for the British, and it's time to stop beating ourselves up about it.

    It depends who you mean by 'we'. My ancestors were busy chipping away at underground coal seams for next to nothing. In later generations my
    Welsh miner ancesters were in lockstep with Paul Robeson. I daresay they had no idea how their cigarettes, sugar and cotton clothing arrived in their possession.

    If 'we' means those with an ancestry of Bristol slave traders, by all means don't beat yourselves up over the misdeeds of your forefathers, but neither
    do you have cause to celebrate their dubious "achievements".

    Back on topic. If cycling were to be the most memorable legacy of the Johnson Premiership then the nation will be in a much happier state than it is in now. I am not holding my breath.
    Yes, one of my points was that life wasn't all that rosy in the UK too as you describe. It's this central white privilege and black repression point that grates with me. It's far more complicated than that.

    What's the bit I do celebrate? Spreading liberal democratic institutions around the world.

    Countries like the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, modern India, Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong wouldn't exist without the British empire, and it is for that I am grateful for.

    I think our record in Ireland, the Middle East and North Africa is less exemplary. And we lost the plot a bit in South Africa, which could have gone much better and didn't need to go over to an Afrikaner reverse takeover.

    So, like most things in history, complex and mixed. You have to judge it in the round and based upon what the alternatives were at the time, as well as critiquing wrongdoings and what could have been better.
    Our history is what it is, for better or worse. What frustrates me are those who have no reading or understanding of the British Empire but are happy to wrap themselves in the flag and proclaim it's greatness..
    The only time we were a superpower was as a result of the British Empire.

    As I said last night there is no point saying it was purely a cause of morality, its aim was to boost Britain economically and militarily which it did.

    It did a few good things as well and a lot of bad things but its purpose ultimately was about expanding power as it was for most nations which created an Empire
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Royale, aye. It's like those who think medieval peasants were unclean, as if they chose not to have access to disinfectant and vacuum cleaners.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    kamski said:

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's pretty difficult (and probably pointless) to say very much about whether countries would have been better off today without the "benefits" of being ruled from a European capital, as hardly anywhere in the world wasn't at some point.

    But Japan and Thailand are two examples, are they better or worse off than their neighbours who "benefited" from European rule?

    In any case, anyone mentioning "railways" as a benefit of the British empire always strikes me as very silly. You do realise there are trains running in countries that were never ruled by Britain?
    I've three half-Thai grandchildren who live in Thailand and are being educated at a 'British style' (and expensive) school. A few months ago the eldest, (14) who generally seems to think of herself as British, had, as history homework, to do an essay on colonialism and realised that Thailand had never been ruled by a European power, unlike all its neighbours. Her father says that she is now much prouder of, and positive towards, her Thai ancestry.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited June 2020
    IanB2 said:

    Now we have high blood pressure and being bald as additional risk factors for suffering the worse form of the infection.

    Apparently the prostrate medication, Finasteride, which has the side effect of reversing male pattern baldness to a certain effect, is being tested for its anti-C19 properties.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249
    edited June 2020
    eristdoof said:

    malcolmg said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Wonders why so many people were quick to ditch the bicycle over the last 50 years.

    Given the lack of hills in Bedford, cycling isn't a problem.

    Will be interested to see where the tax revenue comes from cycling. Loss of VED, fuel duties, VAT on new cars, spares & services.

    Think you will find it is down to cars, the way people drive and think that they are allowed to cut up cyclists, dive within mm of them etc and therefore the chance of being splattered by halfwits that has put people off. That and too many burgers , chips, pizzas etc
    That - and shit British weather.

    This is just not true. The point at which I decided to sell my car when I lived in Exeter was when I realised commuting by car instead of cycling "because it's raining" is also no fun. If you have decent rain gear then it really is not a problem.

    And winter in most of the UK is nowhere near as harsh as in Sweden, Denmark and Eastern Germany, all places where cycling is a lot more popular than in the UK.

    As DavidL pointed out, a major disincentive to cycling in the UK is that cars have de facto right of way over cyclists. In Germany all cars who want to turn have to give-way to cyclists and pedestrians who are going straight on. They will wait on the main road if a cyclist is coming from behind near the kerb, other cars behind them also have to wait. My experience in the UK is if you stop on the main road just before turning the car behind has to do an emergency stop, just because they are not expecting you to stop.
    Some good points in this thread.

    Part of the weather thing is that paths and trails are not designed for all weather use by everyday people. Often they have a shale or a gravel surface - which is fine for MTBs at weekends but not for Donna or Dennis in their office clothes. Properly built, properly drained tarmac is what is needed. And if it is not perceived to be safe enough for a solo 10 year old, and also for an average cyclist doing 16-20mph, then it is not good enough.

    >As DavidL pointed out, a major disincentive to cycling in the UK is that cars have de facto right of way over cyclists. In Germany all cars who want to turn have to give-way to cyclists and pedestrians who are going straight on.

    The highway code is explicit that peds have right of way crossing sideroads (Rule 170), but one example is that we need to change these big radius entries that cars do at 20mph to near right angles that force a speed reduction to 10mph or less.

    The best way is to separate the 3 modes - motorised, bike, pedestrian.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,378

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
    "White supremacy" implies a privileged white minority lording it over an oppressed underclass, but that really doesn't match up with life in this country.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
    Why stop the slavery discussion there.

    You could also add that for hundreds of years British people were enslaved by barbary pirates or that slavery continues in parts of Africa today.

    Or for that matter that while the slaves were toiling away on the Jamaican plantations my ancestors were toiling away in the mines of Wales and the Midlands.

    Slavery was a means of profiting from exploitation - the same profiting from exploitation which has always happened and continues to happen.

    And there's very few people in this country who don't benefit from that.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Getting the bike fixed is on the to do list, trainers don't get sudden flats though.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    At the time our Parliament abolished slavery in 'the Empire' children were working in British mines and in the mills. Often in dreadful conditions.

    Just saying.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
    Why stop the slavery discussion there.

    You could also add that for hundreds of years British people were enslaved by barbary pirates or that slavery continues in parts of Africa today.

    Or for that matter that while the slaves were toiling away on the Jamaican plantations my ancestors were toiling away in the mines of Wales and the Midlands.

    Slavery was a means of profiting from exploitation - the same profiting from exploitation which has always happened and continues to happen.

    And there's very few people in this country who don't benefit from that.
    Were your ancestors who toiled away in the mines allowed to choose their own names?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,434
    There's some interesting things happening with robot deliver using the cycle network in Milton Keynes and I did wonder whether it might help provide a double incentive for improving the cycle network generally.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/12/robots-deliver-food-milton-keynes-coronavirus-lockdown-starship-technologies
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
    Why stop the slavery discussion there.

    You could also add that for hundreds of years British people were enslaved by barbary pirates or that slavery continues in parts of Africa today.

    Or for that matter that while the slaves were toiling away on the Jamaican plantations my ancestors were toiling away in the mines of Wales and the Midlands.

    Slavery was a means of profiting from exploitation - the same profiting from exploitation which has always happened and continues to happen.

    And there's very few people in this country who don't benefit from that.
    Picking stock at Amazon doesn't look that much different.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
    I'm afraid I disagree with much of this I'm afraid. Windrush was Home Office bureaucratic pedantry over changed immigration law - not evidence of endemic racism. I can't speak for you but slavery was very clearly taught in my school and its lessons were very obvious. I'd be very careful about issue like "compensating the descendents", which has all sorts of vested self-interests in it and is ripe for abuse and creating further division.

    Good on you for admitting your past failings and learning from them. It's good of you to share that. But there is no 'white supremacy' now and hasn't been for decades.

    We need to move on from upping the ante on battles largely fought and won 30-40 years ago, and address any residual issues proportionately, or we'll fuel further culture wars in the West, you'll get another Trump (or worse) as a reaction to that and China will exploit the divisions and weaknesses as way of establishing its global domination.

    Let's move on.
    I don't think we can move on until we accept our problems and try to fix them. I don't know any person of colour living in this country who doesn't think we still have a problem of endemic and systematic racism in this country, often manifested in subtle ways and by no means absent in the attitudes of the liberal middle class. Of course most of them would say that things are better now than in the 1970s and 1980s, but how did that happen if not by challenging the attitudes prevalent at the time.
    Nobody wants a culture war, but the very fact that that is the reaction when these issues is raised is in itself an obvious manifestation of white supremacy and white privilege. In my experience, people who get angry when you bring up racism tend to be racists. (I am not talking about you).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    IanB2 said:

    Looks like the IOW contact App won't now be fully working nationally until October

    What a complete farce. This really shouldn’t be rocket science, how does it take until October to develop something that could be done by a couple of competent programmers in a month?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    Sean_F said:

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
    "White supremacy" implies a privileged white minority lording it over an oppressed underclass, but that really doesn't match up with life in this country.
    Discussions about the British Empire usually have sod all to do with the British Empire and everything to do with the person's views of the modern world.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    eristdoof said:

    malcolmg said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Wonders why so many people were quick to ditch the bicycle over the last 50 years.

    Given the lack of hills in Bedford, cycling isn't a problem.

    Will be interested to see where the tax revenue comes from cycling. Loss of VED, fuel duties, VAT on new cars, spares & services.

    Think you will find it is down to cars, the way people drive and think that they are allowed to cut up cyclists, dive within mm of them etc and therefore the chance of being splattered by halfwits that has put people off. That and too many burgers , chips, pizzas etc
    That - and shit British weather.



    And winter in most of the UK is nowhere near as harsh as in Sweden, Denmark and Eastern Germany, all places where cycling is a lot more popular than in the UK.


    It always amuses me when commentators regularly start a conversation about visiting teams from Munich, Milan or Turin with a question about can they handle a cold windy night in Liverpool/Manchester completely oblivious to the obvious point that Brits go to those places to ski.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    kinabalu said:

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
    Why stop the slavery discussion there.

    You could also add that for hundreds of years British people were enslaved by barbary pirates or that slavery continues in parts of Africa today.

    Or for that matter that while the slaves were toiling away on the Jamaican plantations my ancestors were toiling away in the mines of Wales and the Midlands.

    Slavery was a means of profiting from exploitation - the same profiting from exploitation which has always happened and continues to happen.

    And there's very few people in this country who don't benefit from that.
    Were your ancestors who toiled away in the mines allowed to choose their own names?
    No.

    Their surname was one they were born to and their first name was given by someone else.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Looks like the IOW contact App won't now be fully working nationally until October

    What a complete farce. This really shouldn’t be rocket science, how does it take until October to develop something that could be done by a couple of competent programmers in a month?
    Think of the dataset, think of all that lovely meta data that you could make billions out of.

    Now they could be using the aPI rapidly created by experts in the 2 companies who know what can and can't be done on the phones they design and build. But hey they are experts and while currently things are driven by science, experts are still to be ignored (which is why lockdown has been eased but nothing has changed).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Boy, white supremacy and privilege wasn't much in evidence in Rotherham, Telford, Oxford, Newcastle etc when it came to the industrial scale rape of white girls and boys, and the reaction of authorities to the accusations.

    I'm sure racism is still all too commonplace, and it should not be tolerated. That includes turning a blind eye to the abuse of children because of their skin colour (and/or class). Terms like white supremacy or white privilege judge people according to their skin colour, propagating rather than opposing overt bigotry.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Sean_F said:

    FPT - (1) a lot of nonsense written last night about the Empire I see, borrowing heavily from the Marxist conflict theory school of historical thought.

    @Richard_Nabavi is right. The self-flagellation is becoming extreme.

    Its history is far more balanced and complex. In fact, compromise and balance with local populations and rulers was usually British Government policy - it was local settlers who tended to be aggressive, and HMG tried to reign them in.

    A treaty like this was one of the causal factors behind the American revolution (they didn't like the British Government reserving Indian lands to their west in the 1763 Treaty of Paris) and you can see the different attitudes to the treatment of native populations in the subsequent histories of Canada and the USA. There was a mass movement against slavery in England from the 1770s onwards, including it being abolished under common law in 1772, which was successful in banning the trade in 1807 and throughout the Empire in 1833 - pioneering for the world, particularly since so many politically influential Britons benefited from it. The Royal Navy spent much of the rest of the century suppressing it worldwide.

    Then there's the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840 to protect Māori rights and lands and balance them with those of the colonists in New Zealand. In South Africa, the Boer republics broke away from Cape Colony because they found British rule too liberal as it granted blacks some voting rights on a property franchise (just as in the UK) and was therefore suffocating - they wanted their own policy towards natives. It was an Afrikaner party that introduced apartheid in 1948, not the British.

    Then, you have the heavy investment in educational institutions in India, including mass infrastructure of railways, telegraphy, roads and ports, from the 1850s onwards, which led to the growth of democratic values (and Congress) and the development of progressive self-government in India from 1919. People mention Amritsar quite often (it was awful, and probably changed Indian history) but it's notable they struggle to think of many other examples. It was very much the exception, not the norm; that's why it shocked. And it's notable that, today, India today is the world's largest democracy, and the only vaguely democratic bastion of China (Hong Kong) is a legacy of British rule too.

    It's not a case of self flagellation, it's simply trying to have some kind of honest reckoning with our colonial history and its legacy, which remain woefully undercovered in the school history curriculum.
    Take slavery, for instance. How many of us really learned much about this at school? If we did, no doubt we learned about William Wilberforce and the abolitionists. Surely of greater relevance than the fact we abolished it is that we profited from it for over 200 years. We were one of the major players in probably the greatest crime against humanity ever perpetrated. When it ended, we compensated the slave owners. We've never compensated the slaves or their descendants.
    In fact until recently we were deporting the slaves' descendents, illegally, back to the same islands we dragged their ancestors to in chains all those years ago. In my view it is indisputable that the Windrush scandal would never have happened in a country that had come to a proper understanding of its past.
    I say all this not because I want people to be ashamed of their country. Personally, I am not ashamed to be British, and I don't think anyone should be. But until we have a proper reckoning with all of our history we will never move on as a country, and we will be doomed to relive a never ending cycle of prejudice, white privilege and black resentment.
    This matters to me a lot. When I was at primary school I once racially abused an Asian kid. In the heat of the moment, the word just came out. It wasn't something I had learned at home. It was the pervasive racist attitudes of the society I was living in, where racist attacks in our neighbourhood were a daily occurrance and attitudes of white supremacy were rampant. This is not to excuse my own moral failure - it is the thing I am most ashamed of. And the great irony is I now have three half Asian kids. I never want them to have to face the same prejudice. So I don't want to hear any more excuses.
    End white supremacy, teach our history, learn from our mistakes, and move on as a country.
    "White supremacy" implies a privileged white minority lording it over an oppressed underclass, but that really doesn't match up with life in this country.
    Do you not think "white privilege" is a thing at all these days in the UK or is it more that you feel it is exaggerated?
This discussion has been closed.