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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why Dominic Cummings Should resign (from a fan)

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  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    edited May 2020

    Charles said:

    If Cummings was looking after an infant full time he wouldn’t have been able to do any government work. He made a pragmatic decision that was arguably essential

    Well quite. The lockdown and quarantine rules are only meant for the hoi polloi, not for important people.
    Only hoi polloi say 'the hoi polloi'...
    I'm proud to be a member of 'the hoi polloi'! :smile:
    I thought you might say that :smile:
    And I always keep my PIN number secret too!
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Charles said:

    If Cummings was looking after an infant full time he wouldn’t have been able to do any government work. He made a pragmatic decision that was arguably essential

    Well quite. The lockdown and quarantine rules are only meant for the hoi polloi, not for important people.
    Only hoi polloi say 'the hoi polloi'...
    We all know 'hoi' is the Greek definite article in the nominative plural case. You're not impressing anyone round here, old chap.
    I'm glad.Though I've seen relatively little evidence of people knowing the language on here.
  • doublebageldoublebagel Posts: 14
    I don't think this government will care about all the usual suspects trying desperately to get rid of Cummings. Cummings is so important to Boris that the government will gladly ride out a week of faux outrage from Guardian, Independent, Mirror, etc. In fact, these outlets and the BBC all drumming up ridiculous stories to try and get their way is probably helpful to the government. They are all lining up tonight with mad stories to try and swing public opinion definitively against Cummings.

    It seems the Tories friends over at The Telegraph are conflicted about which way to go on this, and these are the media outlets that will most likely define the outcome. If sympathetic Tory voices join the queue of people demanding Cummings is removed, then I think Boris will have to start planning to lead the country without his trusted confidante.

    Cummings isn't going to be bullied into submission by this stuff. He thrives in situations like this. If Boris wants him to continue, then Cummings will gladly ride out a difficult week or two of bad headlines from left-leaning rags to continue in his role. There's no way I'd be backing down and sacking him if I was Boris, nor would I be pressuring him to resign.

    While there are undoubtedly problems with what Cummings did, he was never the face of the governments stay home messaging. Cummings was happily working behind-the-scenes, whereas Ferguson and the Scottish CMO were glad to get out and work the media to deliver a message that was in direct conflict with their own life choices.

    The response to tonight's barrage of bad headlines is precisely the response I'd be going for. Keep reminding people where this noise is coming from - leftie rags, political opponents, and hypocrites who themselves haven't exactly covered themselves in glory in the past. Yes Mr. Spin Campbell, this includes you.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Those focus groups are gonna be something aren't they.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:
    "What do you do with a disease that only kills really old and ill people? Keep it out of hospitals and care homes. We have all been imprisoned for no reason at all".

    What I've been saying on here for a while now and getting slated for it. But common sense is too much for the pearl clutchers who want to keep us under house arrest forever, bugger the economy or our freedoms or people's jobs.

    You've been slated for it because it is not just a disease that kills old people. This disease took Britains leader and some of his cabinet out of action and clogged up the heath service for all the other sick people in your country
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239


    Cummings isn't going to be bullied into submission by this stuff. He thrives in situations like this. If Boris wants him to continue, then Cummings will gladly ride out a difficult week or two of bad headlines from left-leaning rags to continue in his role. There's no way I'd be backing down and sacking him if I was Boris, nor would I be pressuring him to resign.

    Hi Dom!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Maybe because his twitter bio says he lives in Hastings?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    "Stream of allegations".
    It's turning into a veritable River Wear.
    When does he find time to do any actual advising?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    stjohn said:

    Excellent article Richard. Thanks.

    It's Cumming's home,
    It's Cumming's home,
    It's Cumming's.
    Durham's Cumming's home.

    Everyone seems to know the score
    They've seen it all before
    They just know
    They're so sure

    It's Cumming's home,
    It's Cumming's home,
    It's Cumming's.
    Durham's Cumming's home.

    So many jokes, so many sneers
    Wear you down
    Through the years

    It's Cumming's home,
    It's Cumming's home,
    It's Cumming's.
    Durham's Cumming's home.

    Very good
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Maybe because his twitter bio says he lives in Hastings?
    I believe Dom is the veritable embodiment of the idea that a person isn't confined to the place that they live.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited May 2020

    I don't think this government will care about all the usual suspects trying desperately to get rid of Cummings. Cummings is so important to Boris that the government will gladly ride out a week of faux outrage from Guardian, Independent, Mirror, etc. In fact, these outlets and the BBC all drumming up ridiculous stories to try and get their way is probably helpful to the government. They are all lining up tonight with mad stories to try and swing public opinion definitively against Cummings.

    It seems the Tories friends over at The Telegraph are conflicted about which way to go on this, and these are the media outlets that will most likely define the outcome. If sympathetic Tory voices join the queue of people demanding Cummings is removed, then I think Boris will have to start planning to lead the country without his trusted confidante.

    Cummings isn't going to be bullied into submission by this stuff. He thrives in situations like this. If Boris wants him to continue, then Cummings will gladly ride out a difficult week or two of bad headlines from left-leaning rags to continue in his role. There's no way I'd be backing down and sacking him if I was Boris, nor would I be pressuring him to resign.

    While there are undoubtedly problems with what Cummings did, he was never the face of the governments stay home messaging. Cummings was happily working behind-the-scenes, whereas Ferguson and the Scottish CMO were glad to get out and work the media to deliver a message that was in direct conflict with their own life choices.

    The response to tonight's barrage of bad headlines is precisely the response I'd be going for. Keep reminding people where this noise is coming from - leftie rags, political opponents, and hypocrites who themselves haven't exactly covered themselves in glory in the past. Yes Mr. Spin Campbell, this includes you.

    Great post and welcome.

    My thought would be that this strategy is eerily close to that of the Corbynites.

    To set yourself against the press is a brave tactic. The press is only the press because millions of people invest it with authority.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited May 2020
    Fuck it, if Cummings can ignore the rules so can I.

    I'm going down the pub all day tomorrow then out for a ruby in my fav Indian afterwards to soak up the beer!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    Maybe because his twitter bio says he lives in Hastings?
    Hastings via Jarrow. He could have been tipped off by family.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    I don't think this government will care about all the usual suspects trying desperately to get rid of Cummings. Cummings is so important to Boris that the government will gladly ride out a week of faux outrage from Guardian, Independent, Mirror, etc. In fact, these outlets and the BBC all drumming up ridiculous stories to try and get their way is probably helpful to the government. They are all lining up tonight with mad stories to try and swing public opinion definitively against Cummings.

    It seems the Tories friends over at The Telegraph are conflicted about which way to go on this, and these are the media outlets that will most likely define the outcome. If sympathetic Tory voices join the queue of people demanding Cummings is removed, then I think Boris will have to start planning to lead the country without his trusted confidante.

    Cummings isn't going to be bullied into submission by this stuff. He thrives in situations like this. If Boris wants him to continue, then Cummings will gladly ride out a difficult week or two of bad headlines from left-leaning rags to continue in his role. There's no way I'd be backing down and sacking him if I was Boris, nor would I be pressuring him to resign.

    While there are undoubtedly problems with what Cummings did, he was never the face of the governments stay home messaging. Cummings was happily working behind-the-scenes, whereas Ferguson and the Scottish CMO were glad to get out and work the media to deliver a message that was in direct conflict with their own life choices.

    The response to tonight's barrage of bad headlines is precisely the response I'd be going for. Keep reminding people where this noise is coming from - leftie rags, political opponents, and hypocrites who themselves haven't exactly covered themselves in glory in the past. Yes Mr. Spin Campbell, this includes you.

    Welcome to PB!

    A well-reasoned post and you might be right that HMG can brazen this out, but...

    ...the stench of #1ruleforthem is overpowering and Cummings' disregard of lockdown & quarantine while others have suffered heartbreak sticking to the rules is going to tell in the end, I suspect.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This is not about protecting Cummings is my guess. It’s about protecting Boris.

    What did Boris know about the trip up to the NE with sick wife and child and when did he know it?

    My guess is that Boris either knew, approved or turned a blind eye to the 1st NE visit.

    Did he know about all the other trips, though?

    Any views on the snitches?
    You are speaking to a former Head of Whistleblowing Investigations. You investigate if someone raises an issue. Someone raised an issue with the police. They investigated. Journalists also appear to be doing their job.

    No-one appears to have gone and shouted at Mr Cummings or his family personally and made them cry or made unfounded allegations against him. He has admitted he left London to go to County Durham. Whether he had a reasonable excuse to do so is arguable. The defences put up by Cabinet Ministers are pathetic IMO. The Attorney-General, in particular, does not appear to understand her job and may have undermined any prosecutions for breaches of the lockdown laws.

    We will see what the explanations for these other trips, if they happened, are.

    I don’t like the curtain-twitching side of the British this period has revealed. And I don’t like either those in positions of power taking a view that laws are for other people to follow,

    If Cummings is as intelligent as everyone claims, he would have apologised right at the start and the story would likely have disappeared.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    To be fair, his government's lockdown regs have made that trip up and down the A1 much quicker.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    isam said:

    Fuck it, if Cummings can ignite the rules so can I.

    I'm going down the pub all day tomorrow then out for a ruby in my fav Indian afterwards to soak up the beer!

    Unfortunately, you can't because the government that Cummings runs has decreed that it is not safe.

    Because you might catch the virus.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This is not about protecting Cummings is my guess. It’s about protecting Boris.

    What did Boris know about the trip up to the NE with sick wife and child and when did he know it?

    My guess is that Boris either knew, approved or turned a blind eye to the 1st NE visit.

    Did he know about all the other trips, though?

    Any views on the snitches?
    You are speaking to a former Head of Whistleblowing Investigations. You investigate if someone raises an issue. Someone raised an issue with the police. They investigated. Journalists also appear to be doing their job.

    No-one appears to have gone and shouted at Mr Cummings or his family personally and made them cry or made unfounded allegations against him. He has admitted he left London to go to County Durham. Whether he had a reasonable excuse to do so is arguable. The defences put up by Cabinet Ministers are pathetic IMO. The Attorney-General, in particular, does not appear to understand her job and may have undermined any prosecutions for breaches of the lockdown laws.

    We will see what the explanations for these other trips, if they happened, are.

    I don’t like the curtain-twitching side of the British this period has revealed. And I don’t like either those in positions of power taking a view that laws are for other people to follow,

    If Cummings is as intelligent as everyone claims, he would have apologised right at the start and the story would likely have disappeared.
    The difficulty is the lockdown laws vs the lockdown guidance.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:
    "What do you do with a disease that only kills really old and ill people? Keep it out of hospitals and care homes. We have all been imprisoned for no reason at all".

    What I've been saying on here for a while now and getting slated for it. But common sense is too much for the pearl clutchers who want to keep us under house arrest forever, bugger the economy or our freedoms or people's jobs.

    You've been slated for it because it is not just a disease that kills old people. This disease took Britains leader and some of his cabinet out of action and clogged up the heath service for all the other sick people in your country
    As was pointed out in an earlier thread today, twice as many people die falling down the stairs in any given year than the number of people under the age of 45 who have died of coronavirus.

    We have completely destroyed our economy in a way that will quite possibly lead to shortened lifespans for all of us as a result of less money for healthcare provision over the coming years.

    Millions out of work. Livelihoods destroyed. Businesses never to return.

    Meanwhile NHS nightingale hospitals sit empty.

    Lockdown is an atrocious policy that has cost us our freedom, our jobs, our economy, when a policy of shielding the elderly and vulnerable would have been far better.

    But you carry on slating me, I know I'll be in the majority in six months time when furlough has ended and you are all out of a job.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Missing the extra gig added to the tour: Durham 10th May.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    dixiedean said:

    "Stream of allegations".
    It's turning into a veritable River Wear.
    When does he find time to do any actual advising?
    My advise Boris is that we self destruct the entire lockdown strategy in a single day by letting it be known that I have been up and down the A1 more times than you've had children.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    edited May 2020
    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:
    "What do you do with a disease that only kills really old and ill people? Keep it out of hospitals and care homes. We have all been imprisoned for no reason at all".

    What I've been saying on here for a while now and getting slated for it. But common sense is too much for the pearl clutchers who want to keep us under house arrest forever, bugger the economy or our freedoms or people's jobs.

    You've been slated for it because it is not just a disease that kills old people. This disease took Britains leader and some of his cabinet out of action and clogged up the heath service for all the other sick people in your country
    It pretty much only affects old people and people with health conditions. Boris Johnson was probably affected because he's 17 stones and 5 feet 9 inches.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    edited May 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:
    "What do you do with a disease that only kills really old and ill people? Keep it out of hospitals and care homes. We have all been imprisoned for no reason at all".

    What I've been saying on here for a while now and getting slated for it. But common sense is too much for the pearl clutchers who want to keep us under house arrest forever, bugger the economy or our freedoms or people's jobs.

    You've been slated for it because it is not just a disease that kills old people. This disease took Britains leader and some of his cabinet out of action and clogged up the heath service for all the other sick people in your country
    It pretty much only affects old people and people with health conditions. Boris Johnson was probably affected because he's 17 stones and 5 feet 9 inches.
    And Cummings?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Barnard Castle is now trending.

    But hey, Dom's right, social media is all that matters now. The old media are dead.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This is not about protecting Cummings is my guess. It’s about protecting Boris.

    What did Boris know about the trip up to the NE with sick wife and child and when did he know it?

    My guess is that Boris either knew, approved or turned a blind eye to the 1st NE visit.

    Did he know about all the other trips, though?

    Any views on the snitches?
    You are speaking to a former Head of Whistleblowing Investigations. You investigate if someone raises an issue. Someone raised an issue with the police. They investigated. Journalists also appear to be doing their job.

    No-one appears to have gone and shouted at Mr Cummings or his family personally and made them cry or made unfounded allegations against him. He has admitted he left London to go to County Durham. Whether he had a reasonable excuse to do so is arguable. The defences put up by Cabinet Ministers are pathetic IMO. The Attorney-General, in particular, does not appear to understand her job and may have undermined any prosecutions for breaches of the lockdown laws.

    We will see what the explanations for these other trips, if they happened, are.

    I don’t like the curtain-twitching side of the British this period has revealed. And I don’t like either those in positions of power taking a view that laws are for other people to follow,

    If Cummings is as intelligent as everyone claims, he would have apologised right at the start and the story would likely have disappeared.
    The difficulty is the lockdown laws vs the lockdown guidance.
    Well, if it’s guidance - and not the law- we can all ignore it then, but that wasn’t what the government was saying, was it?
  • I see Classic Dom's played a blinder.

    Rang my Boris voting, Rishi-loving old mum earlier. She hasn't seen her children or grandchildren in months. She's abided by all the rules, and barely left the house.

    This isn't a bubble story. Don't piss off the grannies, when they're the ones voting for you.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    @Cyclefree - thanks for the response, and my condolences for your family’s loss.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    HYUFD said:
    Not if Cummings has anything to do with it. There's a couple of villages in North Durham he hasn't had a picnic in yet.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Andy_JS said:

    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:
    "What do you do with a disease that only kills really old and ill people? Keep it out of hospitals and care homes. We have all been imprisoned for no reason at all".

    What I've been saying on here for a while now and getting slated for it. But common sense is too much for the pearl clutchers who want to keep us under house arrest forever, bugger the economy or our freedoms or people's jobs.

    You've been slated for it because it is not just a disease that kills old people. This disease took Britains leader and some of his cabinet out of action and clogged up the heath service for all the other sick people in your country
    It pretty much only affects old people and people with health conditions. Boris Johnson was probably affected because he's 17 stones and 5 feet 9 inches.
    And Cummings?
    Hadn't he been really ill?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    tlg86 said:

    @Cyclefree - thanks for the response, and my condolences for your family’s loss.

    Thank you.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    edited May 2020

    Andy_JS said:

    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:
    "What do you do with a disease that only kills really old and ill people? Keep it out of hospitals and care homes. We have all been imprisoned for no reason at all".

    What I've been saying on here for a while now and getting slated for it. But common sense is too much for the pearl clutchers who want to keep us under house arrest forever, bugger the economy or our freedoms or people's jobs.

    You've been slated for it because it is not just a disease that kills old people. This disease took Britains leader and some of his cabinet out of action and clogged up the heath service for all the other sick people in your country
    It pretty much only affects old people and people with health conditions. Boris Johnson was probably affected because he's 17 stones and 5 feet 9 inches.
    And Cummings?
    I'm not aware of his medical history.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    kyf_100 said:

    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:
    "What do you do with a disease that only kills really old and ill people? Keep it out of hospitals and care homes. We have all been imprisoned for no reason at all".

    What I've been saying on here for a while now and getting slated for it. But common sense is too much for the pearl clutchers who want to keep us under house arrest forever, bugger the economy or our freedoms or people's jobs.

    You've been slated for it because it is not just a disease that kills old people. This disease took Britains leader and some of his cabinet out of action and clogged up the heath service for all the other sick people in your country
    As was pointed out in an earlier thread today, twice as many people die falling down the stairs in any given year than the number of people under the age of 45 who have died of coronavirus.
    That's a completely spurious comparison. Falling down the stairs isn't contagious.
  • doublebageldoublebagel Posts: 14
    edited May 2020
    TOPPING said:

    I don't think this government will care about all the usual suspects trying desperately to get rid of Cummings. Cummings is so important to Boris that the government will gladly ride out a week of faux outrage from Guardian, Independent, Mirror, etc. In fact, these outlets and the BBC all drumming up ridiculous stories to try and get their way is probably helpful to the government. They are all lining up tonight with mad stories to try and swing public opinion definitively against Cummings.

    It seems the Tories friends over at The Telegraph are conflicted about which way to go on this, and these are the media outlets that will most likely define the outcome. If sympathetic Tory voices join the queue of people demanding Cummings is removed, then I think Boris will have to start planning to lead the country without his trusted confidante.

    Cummings isn't going to be bullied into submission by this stuff. He thrives in situations like this. If Boris wants him to continue, then Cummings will gladly ride out a difficult week or two of bad headlines from left-leaning rags to continue in his role. There's no way I'd be backing down and sacking him if I was Boris, nor would I be pressuring him to resign.

    While there are undoubtedly problems with what Cummings did, he was never the face of the governments stay home messaging. Cummings was happily working behind-the-scenes, whereas Ferguson and the Scottish CMO were glad to get out and work the media to deliver a message that was in direct conflict with their own life choices.

    The response to tonight's barrage of bad headlines is precisely the response I'd be going for. Keep reminding people where this noise is coming from - leftie rags, political opponents, and hypocrites who themselves haven't exactly covered themselves in glory in the past. Yes Mr. Spin Campbell, this includes you.

    Great post and welcome.

    My thought would be that this strategy is eerily close to that of the Corbynites.

    To set yourself against the press is a brave tactic. The press is only the press because millions of people invest it with authority.
    It's a bit different in that Corbyn had a diverse range of opponents in the media, including from Labour-leaning press. Corbynites didn't care if you were a Labour, Lib Dem, Tory supporter or previously IRA, if you wasn't on Team Corbyn you were part of the enemy squad.

    The Tories have already been setting themselves against the segment of media that only deal in anti-Conservative messaging anyway. If you never get a fair hearing from these people, don't risk sacrificing your political future by trying to appease them on an important issue like this. I think they've drawn a lot of inspiration from the Republicans over in the US on this approach.

    People are also investing less and less in this traditional media, hence the stream of business failures and pleas for donations from readers to keep heads above water.

    The Tories will be more persuadable if the likes of The Telegraph jump on the bandwagon and starts strolling with Cummings-must-go opinion pieces. For this reason, expect to see articles from the lefties next week demanding to know why the Conservative press are not doing their jolly decent thing in helping them remove Cummings from his role.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Missing the extra gig added to the tour: Durham 10th May.
    :lol: The tour was so popular the management just had to keep adding dates.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This is not about protecting Cummings is my guess. It’s about protecting Boris.

    What did Boris know about the trip up to the NE with sick wife and child and when did he know it?

    My guess is that Boris either knew, approved or turned a blind eye to the 1st NE visit.

    Did he know about all the other trips, though?

    Any views on the snitches?
    You are speaking to a former Head of Whistleblowing Investigations. You investigate if someone raises an issue. Someone raised an issue with the police. They investigated. Journalists also appear to be doing their job.

    No-one appears to have gone and shouted at Mr Cummings or his family personally and made them cry or made unfounded allegations against him. He has admitted he left London to go to County Durham. Whether he had a reasonable excuse to do so is arguable. The defences put up by Cabinet Ministers are pathetic IMO. The Attorney-General, in particular, does not appear to understand her job and may have undermined any prosecutions for breaches of the lockdown laws.

    We will see what the explanations for these other trips, if they happened, are.

    I don’t like the curtain-twitching side of the British this period has revealed. And I don’t like either those in positions of power taking a view that laws are for other people to follow,

    If Cummings is as intelligent as everyone claims, he would have apologised right at the start and the story would likely have disappeared.
    The difficulty is the lockdown laws vs the lockdown guidance.
    Well, if it’s guidance - and not the law- we can all ignore it then, but that wasn’t what the government was saying, was it?
    If it's just guidance how come you can be fined for flouting it?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    kyf_100 said:

    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:
    "What do you do with a disease that only kills really old and ill people? Keep it out of hospitals and care homes. We have all been imprisoned for no reason at all".

    What I've been saying on here for a while now and getting slated for it. But common sense is too much for the pearl clutchers who want to keep us under house arrest forever, bugger the economy or our freedoms or people's jobs.

    You've been slated for it because it is not just a disease that kills old people. This disease took Britains leader and some of his cabinet out of action and clogged up the heath service for all the other sick people in your country
    As was pointed out in an earlier thread today, twice as many people die falling down the stairs in any given year than the number of people under the age of 45 who have died of coronavirus.

    We have completely destroyed our economy in a way that will quite possibly lead to shortened lifespans for all of us as a result of less money for healthcare provision over the coming years.

    Millions out of work. Livelihoods destroyed. Businesses never to return.

    Meanwhile NHS nightingale hospitals sit empty.

    Lockdown is an atrocious policy that has cost us our freedom, our jobs, our economy, when a policy of shielding the elderly and vulnerable would have been far better.

    But you carry on slating me, I know I'll be in the majority in six months time when furlough has ended and you are all out of a job.
    Lockdown may or may not be poor policy*, but this was not a violation of lockdown, it was violation of quarantine, and that is much more significant.

    * Though of course has been the centrepiece of government policy these last 2 months.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This is not about protecting Cummings is my guess. It’s about protecting Boris.

    What did Boris know about the trip up to the NE with sick wife and child and when did he know it?

    My guess is that Boris either knew, approved or turned a blind eye to the 1st NE visit.

    Did he know about all the other trips, though?

    Any views on the snitches?
    You are speaking to a former Head of Whistleblowing Investigations. You investigate if someone raises an issue. Someone raised an issue with the police. They investigated. Journalists also appear to be doing their job.

    No-one appears to have gone and shouted at Mr Cummings or his family personally and made them cry or made unfounded allegations against him. He has admitted he left London to go to County Durham. Whether he had a reasonable excuse to do so is arguable. The defences put up by Cabinet Ministers are pathetic IMO. The Attorney-General, in particular, does not appear to understand her job and may have undermined any prosecutions for breaches of the lockdown laws.

    We will see what the explanations for these other trips, if they happened, are.

    I don’t like the curtain-twitching side of the British this period has revealed. And I don’t like either those in positions of power taking a view that laws are for other people to follow,

    If Cummings is as intelligent as everyone claims, he would have apologised right at the start and the story would likely have disappeared.
    The difficulty is the lockdown laws vs the lockdown guidance.
    Well, if it’s guidance - and not the law- we can all ignore it then, but that wasn’t what the government was saying, was it?
    That has been my point all along. The communication and wilful opacity has been woeful and was bound to unravel sooner or later.

    That said I didn't expect it to be the government's chief advisor who would be the cause.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:
    "What do you do with a disease that only kills really old and ill people? Keep it out of hospitals and care homes. We have all been imprisoned for no reason at all".

    What I've been saying on here for a while now and getting slated for it. But common sense is too much for the pearl clutchers who want to keep us under house arrest forever, bugger the economy or our freedoms or people's jobs.

    You've been slated for it because it is not just a disease that kills old people. This disease took Britains leader and some of his cabinet out of action and clogged up the heath service for all the other sick people in your country
    It pretty much only affects old people and people with health conditions. Boris Johnson was probably affected because he's 17 stones and 5 feet 9 inches.
    And Cummings?
    I'm not aware of his medical history.
    He had/has a health condition that required an operation last year
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    edited May 2020

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This is not about protecting Cummings is my guess. It’s about protecting Boris.

    What did Boris know about the trip up to the NE with sick wife and child and when did he know it?

    My guess is that Boris either knew, approved or turned a blind eye to the 1st NE visit.

    Did he know about all the other trips, though?

    Any views on the snitches?
    You are speaking to a former Head of Whistleblowing Investigations. You investigate if someone raises an issue. Someone raised an issue with the police. They investigated. Journalists also appear to be doing their job.

    No-one appears to have gone and shouted at Mr Cummings or his family personally and made them cry or made unfounded allegations against him. He has admitted he left London to go to County Durham. Whether he had a reasonable excuse to do so is arguable. The defences put up by Cabinet Ministers are pathetic IMO. The Attorney-General, in particular, does not appear to understand her job and may have undermined any prosecutions for breaches of the lockdown laws.

    We will see what the explanations for these other trips, if they happened, are.

    I don’t like the curtain-twitching side of the British this period has revealed. And I don’t like either those in positions of power taking a view that laws are for other people to follow,

    If Cummings is as intelligent as everyone claims, he would have apologised right at the start and the story would likely have disappeared.
    The difficulty is the lockdown laws vs the lockdown guidance.
    Well, if it’s guidance - and not the law- we can all ignore it then, but that wasn’t what the government was saying, was it?
    If it's just guidance how come you can be fined for flouting it?
    You can be fined for breaching the Coronavirus Regulations. You cannot be fined for breaching government advice eg to stay 2 metres away from someone else. There is no law saying this.

    The police have not understood this distinction (you may remember that I wrote a header about it here - https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/04/01/taking-liberties/). That is why the CPs has now determined that none of the cases for breaches of the regulations which the police have tried to bring are valid. None.

    That is, incidentally, one reason why I am sceptical of the police’s claim that the Cummings family did nothing wrong in travelling from London to Durham. It is not at all clear that any police force has any understanding at all of the new rules let alone a week after they first came in.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    This is not about protecting Cummings is my guess. It’s about protecting Boris.

    What did Boris know about the trip up to the NE with sick wife and child and when did he know it?

    My guess is that Boris either knew, approved or turned a blind eye to the 1st NE visit.

    Did he know about all the other trips, though?

    Any views on the snitches?
    You are speaking to a former Head of Whistleblowing Investigations. You investigate if someone raises an issue. Someone raised an issue with the police. They investigated. Journalists also appear to be doing their job.

    No-one appears to have gone and shouted at Mr Cummings or his family personally and made them cry or made unfounded allegations against him. He has admitted he left London to go to County Durham. Whether he had a reasonable excuse to do so is arguable. The defences put up by Cabinet Ministers are pathetic IMO. The Attorney-General, in particular, does not appear to understand her job and may have undermined any prosecutions for breaches of the lockdown laws.

    We will see what the explanations for these other trips, if they happened, are.

    I don’t like the curtain-twitching side of the British this period has revealed. And I don’t like either those in positions of power taking a view that laws are for other people to follow,

    If Cummings is as intelligent as everyone claims, he would have apologised right at the start and the story would likely have disappeared.
    The difficulty is the lockdown laws vs the lockdown guidance.
    Well, if it’s guidance - and not the law- we can all ignore it then, but that wasn’t what the government was saying, was it?
    If it's just guidance how come you can be fined for flouting it?
    You can be fined for breaching the Coronavirus Regulations. You cannot be fined for breaching government advice eg to stay 2 metres away from someone else. There is no law saying this.

    The police have not understood this distinction (you may remember that I wrote a header about it here - https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/04/01/taking-liberties/). That is why the CPs has now determined that none of the cases for breaches of the regulations which the police have tried to bring are valid. None.

    That is, incidentally, one reason why I am sceptical of the police’s claim that the Cummings family did nothing wrong in travelling from London to Durham. It is not at all clear that any police force has any understanding at all of the new rules let alone a week after they first came in.
    It doesn't matter if it was legal, what matters is literally millions of people bent over backwards to obey rules and now find that the mastermind behind the entire strategy didn't give a flying fuck.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    I don't think this government will care about all the usual suspects trying desperately to get rid of Cummings. Cummings is so important to Boris that the government will gladly ride out a week of faux outrage from Guardian, Independent, Mirror, etc. In fact, these outlets and the BBC all drumming up ridiculous stories to try and get their way is probably helpful to the government. They are all lining up tonight with mad stories to try and swing public opinion definitively against Cummings.

    It seems the Tories friends over at The Telegraph are conflicted about which way to go on this, and these are the media outlets that will most likely define the outcome. If sympathetic Tory voices join the queue of people demanding Cummings is removed, then I think Boris will have to start planning to lead the country without his trusted confidante.

    Cummings isn't going to be bullied into submission by this stuff. He thrives in situations like this. If Boris wants him to continue, then Cummings will gladly ride out a difficult week or two of bad headlines from left-leaning rags to continue in his role. There's no way I'd be backing down and sacking him if I was Boris, nor would I be pressuring him to resign.

    While there are undoubtedly problems with what Cummings did, he was never the face of the governments stay home messaging. Cummings was happily working behind-the-scenes, whereas Ferguson and the Scottish CMO were glad to get out and work the media to deliver a message that was in direct conflict with their own life choices.

    The response to tonight's barrage of bad headlines is precisely the response I'd be going for. Keep reminding people where this noise is coming from - leftie rags, political opponents, and hypocrites who themselves haven't exactly covered themselves in glory in the past. Yes Mr. Spin Campbell, this includes you.

    Great post and welcome.

    My thought would be that this strategy is eerily close to that of the Corbynites.

    To set yourself against the press is a brave tactic. The press is only the press because millions of people invest it with authority.
    It's a bit different in that Corbyn had a diverse range of opponents in the media, including from Labour-leaning press. Corbynites didn't care if you were a Labour, Lib Dem, Tory supporter or previously IRA, if you wasn't on Team Corbyn you were part of the enemy squad.

    The Tories have already been setting themselves against the segment of media that only deal in anti-Conservative messaging anyway. If you never get a fair hearing from these people, don't risk sacrificing your political future by trying to appease them on an important issue like this. I think they've drawn a lot of inspiration from the Republicans over in the US on this approach.

    People are also investing less and less in this traditional media, hence the stream of business failures and pleas for donations from readers to keep heads above water.

    The Tories will be more persuadable if the likes of The Telegraph jump on the bandwagon and starts strolling with Cummings-must-go opinion pieces. For this reason, expect to see articles from the lefties next week demanding to know why the Conservative press are not doing their jolly decent thing in helping them remove Cummings from his role.
    If you are dismissing a large segment of the MSM for being biased on the one hand and Twitter for being a lefty repository on the other you are leaving yourself with a sliver of influencing.

    But yes. Let's see how the Mail and Telegraph react.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    "Wildly inaccurate", says the man who can't even get the identity of the paper right.

    https://twitter.com/DKShrewsbury/status/1264318532654960652
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    Foxy said:

    kyf_100 said:

    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:
    "What do you do with a disease that only kills really old and ill people? Keep it out of hospitals and care homes. We have all been imprisoned for no reason at all".

    What I've been saying on here for a while now and getting slated for it. But common sense is too much for the pearl clutchers who want to keep us under house arrest forever, bugger the economy or our freedoms or people's jobs.

    You've been slated for it because it is not just a disease that kills old people. This disease took Britains leader and some of his cabinet out of action and clogged up the heath service for all the other sick people in your country
    As was pointed out in an earlier thread today, twice as many people die falling down the stairs in any given year than the number of people under the age of 45 who have died of coronavirus.

    We have completely destroyed our economy in a way that will quite possibly lead to shortened lifespans for all of us as a result of less money for healthcare provision over the coming years.

    Millions out of work. Livelihoods destroyed. Businesses never to return.

    Meanwhile NHS nightingale hospitals sit empty.

    Lockdown is an atrocious policy that has cost us our freedom, our jobs, our economy, when a policy of shielding the elderly and vulnerable would have been far better.

    But you carry on slating me, I know I'll be in the majority in six months time when furlough has ended and you are all out of a job.
    Lockdown may or may not be poor policy*, but this was not a violation of lockdown, it was violation of quarantine, and that is much more significant.

    * Though of course has been the centrepiece of government policy these last 2 months.
    I was referring to Isam's original tweet, which was not on the Cummings topic but on the topic of where people have been infected and the questionable necessity of lockdown. Reposting:

    https://twitter.com/VanessaGray999/status/1264288533302435840
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    "Wildly inaccurate", says the man who can't even get the identity of the paper right.

    https://twitter.com/DKShrewsbury/status/1264318532654960652

    Might help with the defence if any of them would point out exactly what was inaccurate.
    Other than the newspaper of course.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Realistically he'll remain in a position of influence over SpAds and, thus, with indirect authority over civil servants, whether he resigns or not, and especially if he comes back in, like, July. This ought to be clear from his ministers' response today.
  • doublebageldoublebagel Posts: 14

    I don't think this government will care about all the usual suspects trying desperately to get rid of Cummings. Cummings is so important to Boris that the government will gladly ride out a week of faux outrage from Guardian, Independent, Mirror, etc. In fact, these outlets and the BBC all drumming up ridiculous stories to try and get their way is probably helpful to the government. They are all lining up tonight with mad stories to try and swing public opinion definitively against Cummings.

    It seems the Tories friends over at The Telegraph are conflicted about which way to go on this, and these are the media outlets that will most likely define the outcome. If sympathetic Tory voices join the queue of people demanding Cummings is removed, then I think Boris will have to start planning to lead the country without his trusted confidante.

    Cummings isn't going to be bullied into submission by this stuff. He thrives in situations like this. If Boris wants him to continue, then Cummings will gladly ride out a difficult week or two of bad headlines from left-leaning rags to continue in his role. There's no way I'd be backing down and sacking him if I was Boris, nor would I be pressuring him to resign.

    While there are undoubtedly problems with what Cummings did, he was never the face of the governments stay home messaging. Cummings was happily working behind-the-scenes, whereas Ferguson and the Scottish CMO were glad to get out and work the media to deliver a message that was in direct conflict with their own life choices.

    The response to tonight's barrage of bad headlines is precisely the response I'd be going for. Keep reminding people where this noise is coming from - leftie rags, political opponents, and hypocrites who themselves haven't exactly covered themselves in glory in the past. Yes Mr. Spin Campbell, this includes you.

    Welcome to PB!

    A well-reasoned post and you might be right that HMG can brazen this out, but...

    ...the stench of #1ruleforthem is overpowering and Cummings' disregard of lockdown & quarantine while others have suffered heartbreak sticking to the rules is going to tell in the end, I suspect.
    Thanks :) I've been reading this site for years and years, mainly for the betting material. When there's a big political issue being debated though, this is one of the first places I hop to for some great insights.

    There are undoubtedly political problems presented by the choices Cummings made. On a personal level, I think almost all of us would have done the same thing - in his shoes - if we felt it was the best choice for looking after our own family. This applies especially if everyone around you in the family was telling you this is what we want to do, and this is what must do together to get through this.

    Many 'ordinary people' will have chosen to stick by the rules because they thought it was the right thing to do in their own circumstances. Other 'normal people' will have bent the rules slightly because they thought it was something they needed to do to protect their own family. While laws and rules are there to be followed and obeyed, sometimes you have to exercise a personal judgment that conflicts with doing what you are told so rigidly. That's human nature, but you should try and calculate the risks first as much as possible.

    Ultimately - if Cummings believes he did the right thing and has to lose his job as a result of it, he will still think it was a price worth paying - as would all of us in his shoes.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    Still, isn't it interesting that it was no skin off Boris's thing to lose a Chancellor, but a Praetorian guard is assembled for a staffer?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    It was obvious that returning to school in June was going to be optional.

    In fact a full attendance would likely overwhelm the resources.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Is the Conservative Party so hollowed out that no leading member will call this out for what it is?

    Rank hypocrisy.



  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652

    Is the Conservative Party so hollowed out that no leading member will call this out for what it is?

    Rank hypocrisy.



    Cummings can dismiss ministers (like Javid) and gives day-to-day orders to their nominal political staff, so you need to see Cabinet ministers more like SpAds with seats.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Night all.

    Fully expect to wake to find some kind of massive dead cat has been smashed across the table.

    UK to launch manned Mars mission? Johnson negotiating to buy Iceland? Captain Tom to be the only person to be doubled knighted?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    Is the Conservative Party so hollowed out that no leading member will call this out for what it is?

    Rank hypocrisy.



    Actually there's been remarkable silence this evening. Only the Shrewsbury MP whose name I won't attempt at this hour in defence.
    Should imagine the Whatsapps are busy though.
    Doesn't bode well, if they have been ordered to take a line.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    I'm not that bothered about Cummings as long as the lockdown ends pretty soon.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    dixiedean said:

    Is the Conservative Party so hollowed out that no leading member will call this out for what it is?

    Rank hypocrisy.



    Actually there's been remarkable silence this evening. Only the Shrewsbury MP whose name I won't attempt at this hour in defence.
    Should imagine the Whatsapps are busy though.
    Doesn't bode well, if they have been ordered to take a line.
    Bodes even worse if they have no line other than Fake News!!!
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    I don't think this government will care about all the usual suspects trying desperately to get rid of Cummings. Cummings is so important to Boris that the government will gladly ride out a week of faux outrage from Guardian, Independent, Mirror, etc. In fact, these outlets and the BBC all drumming up ridiculous stories to try and get their way is probably helpful to the government. They are all lining up tonight with mad stories to try and swing public opinion definitively against Cummings.

    It seems the Tories friends over at The Telegraph are conflicted about which way to go on this, and these are the media outlets that will most likely define the outcome. If sympathetic Tory voices join the queue of people demanding Cummings is removed, then I think Boris will have to start planning to lead the country without his trusted confidante.

    Cummings isn't going to be bullied into submission by this stuff. He thrives in situations like this. If Boris wants him to continue, then Cummings will gladly ride out a difficult week or two of bad headlines from left-leaning rags to continue in his role. There's no way I'd be backing down and sacking him if I was Boris, nor would I be pressuring him to resign.

    While there are undoubtedly problems with what Cummings did, he was never the face of the governments stay home messaging. Cummings was happily working behind-the-scenes, whereas Ferguson and the Scottish CMO were glad to get out and work the media to deliver a message that was in direct conflict with their own life choices.

    The response to tonight's barrage of bad headlines is precisely the response I'd be going for. Keep reminding people where this noise is coming from - leftie rags, political opponents, and hypocrites who themselves haven't exactly covered themselves in glory in the past. Yes Mr. Spin Campbell, this includes you.

    Welcome to PB!

    A well-reasoned post and you might be right that HMG can brazen this out, but...

    ...the stench of #1ruleforthem is overpowering and Cummings' disregard of lockdown & quarantine while others have suffered heartbreak sticking to the rules is going to tell in the end, I suspect.
    Thanks :) I've been reading this site for years and years, mainly for the betting material. When there's a big political issue being debated though, this is one of the first places I hop to for some great insights.

    There are undoubtedly political problems presented by the choices Cummings made. On a personal level, I think almost all of us would have done the same thing - in his shoes - if we felt it was the best choice for looking after our own family. This applies especially if everyone around you in the family was telling you this is what we want to do, and this is what must do together to get through this.

    Many 'ordinary people' will have chosen to stick by the rules because they thought it was the right thing to do in their own circumstances. Other 'normal people' will have bent the rules slightly because they thought it was something they needed to do to protect their own family. While laws and rules are there to be followed and obeyed, sometimes you have to exercise a personal judgment that conflicts with doing what you are told so rigidly. That's human nature, but you should try and calculate the risks first as much as possible.

    Ultimately - if Cummings believes he did the right thing and has to lose his job as a result of it, he will still think it was a price worth paying - as would all of us in his shoes.
    agree completely - common sense seems sadly to have been furloughed
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    Andy_JS said:

    I'm not that bothered about Cummings as long as the lockdown ends pretty soon.

    Lockdown is over but the shutdown continues.

    Now if I remember rightly you had a mystery illness during the winter.

    Here's a theory:

    What you had was the first phase of the virus and what we're having now is a more virulent second phase.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    EPG said:

    Still, isn't it interesting that it was no skin off Boris's thing to lose a Chancellor, but a Praetorian guard is assembled for a staffer?

    Cummings is the Rasputin of the government
  • megalomaniacs4umegalomaniacs4u Posts: 326
    edited May 2020

    dixiedean said:

    "Stream of allegations".
    It's turning into a veritable River Wear.
    When does he find time to do any actual advising?
    My advise Boris is that we self destruct the entire lockdown strategy in a single day by letting it be known that I have been up and down the A1 more times than you've had children.

    Close. They need to end lockdown. The best way for the government is if the public reject it. If the outcome of this media outrage is that the public start ignoring lockdown, it gives them cover to loosen.

    Could almost be a classic Cummings play...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708

    Night all.

    Fully expect to wake to find some kind of massive dead cat has been smashed across the table.

    UK to launch manned Mars mission? Johnson negotiating to buy Iceland? Captain Tom to be the only person to be doubled knighted?

    Boris Island to be built as quarantine centre.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    Still, isn't it interesting that it was no skin off Boris's thing to lose a Chancellor, but a Praetorian guard is assembled for a staffer?

    Cummings is the Rasputin of the government
    Who's going to be Yusopov?
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    dixiedean said:

    "Stream of allegations".
    It's turning into a veritable River Wear.
    When does he find time to do any actual advising?
    My advise Boris is that we self destruct the entire lockdown strategy in a single day by letting it be known that I have been up and down the A1 more times than you've had children.

    Close. They need to end lockdown. The best way for the government is if the public reject it. If the outcome of this media outrage is that the public start ignoring lockdown, it gives them cover to loosen.

    Could almost be a classic Cummings play...
    I do get the feeling that everyone is champing at the bit bar the righteous media and those unions that have the nation's interest at heart
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited May 2020

    HYUFD said:

    EPG said:

    Still, isn't it interesting that it was no skin off Boris's thing to lose a Chancellor, but a Praetorian guard is assembled for a staffer?

    Cummings is the Rasputin of the government
    Who's going to be Yusopov?
    Hancock or Sunak
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    isam said:
    The most barking mad tweet I’ve seen on this, and believe me there’s a lot of competition, It’s as though they have some sort of filter that blocks out what they can’t compute. No thought of Iran, or Brazil, or... oh, for god’s sakr, It’s not even worth engaging with. Just look at actual scientific work going on, not this anti-science mumbo-jumbo. These people are generally just trying to save their own lifestyles. A banker here, a hedge fund manager a few days ago a guy who is suing over lockdown here despite living in the tax haven of Monaco. Do they not realise how transparent they are?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    "Lockdown saved no lives and may have cost them, Nobel Prize winner believes

    Professor Michael Levitt of Stanford University predicts that the UK will be rid of Covid-19 within weeks"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/23/lockdown-saved-no-lives-may-have-cost-nobel-prize-winner-believes/
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    alterego said:



    I do get the feeling that everyone is champing at the bit bar the righteous media and those unions that have the nation's interest at heart

    ...and a large majority of the population polled on that very issue? I think you're doing the "everyone thinks like me and my mates" thing.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited May 2020
    OT Tokyo looking set to end the state of emergency tomorrow, despite having not quite eliminated covid19 - still getting multiple cases per day.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Interesting evening. Just been talking to three mates, all of whom work for the NHS. One of them is a ward doctor.

    All three say end the lockdown for everyone fit and healthy under 60 – and shield vulnerable groups.

    This sort of risk segmentation strikes me as the best approach.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Since Boris needs to change the subject maybe we could have a serious response on Hong Kong???
  • PeterMannionPeterMannion Posts: 712
    isam said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    eristdoof said:

    kyf_100 said:

    isam said:
    "What do you do with a disease that only kills really old and ill people? Keep it out of hospitals and care homes. We have all been imprisoned for no reason at all".

    What I've been saying on here for a while now and getting slated for it. But common sense is too much for the pearl clutchers who want to keep us under house arrest forever, bugger the economy or our freedoms or people's jobs.

    You've been slated for it because it is not just a disease that kills old people. This disease took Britains leader and some of his cabinet out of action and clogged up the heath service for all the other sick people in your country
    It pretty much only affects old people and people with health conditions. Boris Johnson was probably affected because he's 17 stones and 5 feet 9 inches.
    And Cummings?
    I'm not aware of his medical history.
    He had/has a health condition that required an operation last year
    I didn't know being a €¥#+ was operable
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Since Boris needs to change the subject maybe we could have a serious response on Hong Kong???

    Boris and Cummings declaring war with China over Hong Kong would be one heck of a 'look squirrel' strategy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    Since Boris needs to change the subject maybe we could have a serious response on Hong Kong???

    Boris and Cummings declaring war with China over Hong Kong would be one heck of a 'look squirrel' strategy.
    A fishing dispute with the Faroe Islands might be a bit less risky
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Since Boris needs to change the subject maybe we could have a serious response on Hong Kong???

    Boris and Cummings declaring war with China over Hong Kong would be one heck of a 'look squirrel' strategy.
    I wouldn't go so far as to declare war but the US seems to be talking about some serious banking-system-related sanctions. For historical reasons the UK has particular responsibility here - sometimes you really do need to look at the squirrel.

    The UK should also be talking about welcoming refugees. I think this is actually consistent with Boris's brand here and defensible against the Faragists: They'd be immigrants, but it's a former British colony, they said Brexit would allow room to open up to the world, and I think Hong Kong Chinese people are generally a more popular kind of foreigner among British voters than Germans or Pakistanis.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601

    Interesting evening. Just been talking to three mates, all of whom work for the NHS. One of them is a ward doctor.

    All three say end the lockdown for everyone fit and healthy under 60 – and shield vulnerable groups.

    This sort of risk segmentation strikes me as the best approach.

    Good to hear. I've been saying the same thing for about 6 weeks. Young and healthy people apparently have more chance of being struck by lightning than dying from the virus.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    OT Vermin Supreme running in third place for the Libertarian Party nomination, don't think he's going to pull it off but you never know
    https://twitter.com/RidgeKnapp/status/1264364597211017216
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting evening. Just been talking to three mates, all of whom work for the NHS. One of them is a ward doctor.

    All three say end the lockdown for everyone fit and healthy under 60 – and shield vulnerable groups.

    This sort of risk segmentation strikes me as the best approach.

    Good to hear. I've been saying the same thing for about 6 weeks. Young and healthy people apparently have more chance of being struck by lightning than dying from the virus.
    Right, until they spread it again, then it becomes non-trivially dangerous to young people, and impossible to keep it away from old people.

    I really don't understand why anyone would try to do this when other countries are having so much success with suppression.
  • PhyloPhylo Posts: 2
    eadric said:

    Tell em to fuck off, Boris. Remoaner losers

    Yes, defend Cummings' right to freedom of movement.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    What ever happened to a good old fashioned apology?

    Can I use an analogy. Dominic Cummings has done something wrong. But it's a detention level offence, not an expelling one. He acted with understandable intentions, but he did break the rules set by the government to which he is a senior advisor.

    If he'd said "I did what I thought was best for my family. I realise that this meant I overstepped the rules that were in place and given my position I was wrong to do that, and I apologise", then I think we could and should move on.

    But we live in an environment where no-one (in a position of authority) ever admits to error. Instead, we have angry denials that anything was done that was wrong.

    That kind of stinks. He did break the rules. He shouldn't have been shuttling between London, Durham and that other place. He should apologise for breaking the rules and we should move on.

    Instead we get the combative "fight them on the beaches" attitude.

    Man up Dominic, and admit what you did was wrong. Apologise for it.

    That's what we'd expect our children to do. It seems the least we can ask from our government.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    VERMIN SUPREME DEFEATED IN FINAL ROUND
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    So still all Cummings and no goings?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Scott_xP said:
    What did SAGE advise and when did they advise it?

    At the time I got the impression that Whitty was reluctant to introduce lockdown too soon for fear of it unraveling at the peak of infection.

    Doesn’t absolve the governmentS of responsibility but it may shift some of the “blame”.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,224

    Scott_xP said:
    What did SAGE advise and when did they advise it?

    At the time I got the impression that Whitty was reluctant to introduce lockdown too soon for fear of it unraveling at the peak of infection.

    Doesn’t absolve the government of responsibility but it may shift some of the “blame”.
    Not really.
    It’s becoming clear that the “guided at all times by the best scientific advice” should add “but sometimes took weeks to act on it”.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,224
    rcs1000 said:

    What ever happened to a good old fashioned apology?

    Can I use an analogy. Dominic Cummings has done something wrong. But it's a detention level offence, not an expelling one. He acted with understandable intentions, but he did break the rules set by the government to which he is a senior advisor.

    If he'd said "I did what I thought was best for my family. I realise that this meant I overstepped the rules that were in place and given my position I was wrong to do that, and I apologise", then I think we could and should move on.

    But we live in an environment where no-one (in a position of authority) ever admits to error. Instead, we have angry denials that anything was done that was wrong.

    That kind of stinks. He did break the rules. He shouldn't have been shuttling between London, Durham and that other place. He should apologise for breaking the rules and we should move on.

    Instead we get the combative "fight them on the beaches" attitude.

    Man up Dominic, and admit what you did was wrong. Apologise for it.

    That's what we'd expect our children to do. It seems the least we can ask from our government.

    I agree.
    I said yesterday that a prompt apology would have pretty well ended the matter. But the inability to accept that it is wrong seems to be a characteristic of the government.
    If not for its repercussions for trust in the government, the Cummings affair is a relatively trivial matter. The refusal to admit and learn from mistakes in other matters is not trivial at all.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    rcs1000 said:

    What ever happened to a good old fashioned apology?

    Can I use an analogy. Dominic Cummings has done something wrong. But it's a detention level offence, not an expelling one. He acted with understandable intentions, but he did break the rules set by the government to which he is a senior advisor.

    If he'd said "I did what I thought was best for my family. I realise that this meant I overstepped the rules that were in place and given my position I was wrong to do that, and I apologise", then I think we could and should move on.

    But we live in an environment where no-one (in a position of authority) ever admits to error. Instead, we have angry denials that anything was done that was wrong.

    That kind of stinks. He did break the rules. He shouldn't have been shuttling between London, Durham and that other place. He should apologise for breaking the rules and we should move on.

    Instead we get the combative "fight them on the beaches" attitude.

    Man up Dominic, and admit what you did was wrong. Apologise for it.

    That's what we'd expect our children to do. It seems the least we can ask from our government.

    I actually think that's reasonable.

    The trouble is it relies on your opponents being reasonable. And not an outrage mob.

    It relies on your opponents accepting the apology and standing down. Of admitting, as you say, that this is a disciplinary offense rather than a sacking one.

    But they won't. The second they sense weakness, the outrage mob will demand more. If Cummings apologises, they will double down on demanding he resign. And if he apologises, he admits wrongdoing, effectively giving them ammunition for their demand.

    So yes, in normal times, you would be right. An apology would make this all go away. But sadly that is not how outrage mobs work. Once they sense weakness, they double down.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    kyf_100 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What ever happened to a good old fashioned apology?

    Can I use an analogy. Dominic Cummings has done something wrong. But it's a detention level offence, not an expelling one. He acted with understandable intentions, but he did break the rules set by the government to which he is a senior advisor.

    If he'd said "I did what I thought was best for my family. I realise that this meant I overstepped the rules that were in place and given my position I was wrong to do that, and I apologise", then I think we could and should move on.

    But we live in an environment where no-one (in a position of authority) ever admits to error. Instead, we have angry denials that anything was done that was wrong.

    That kind of stinks. He did break the rules. He shouldn't have been shuttling between London, Durham and that other place. He should apologise for breaking the rules and we should move on.

    Instead we get the combative "fight them on the beaches" attitude.

    Man up Dominic, and admit what you did was wrong. Apologise for it.

    That's what we'd expect our children to do. It seems the least we can ask from our government.

    I actually think that's reasonable.

    The trouble is it relies on your opponents being reasonable. And not an outrage mob.

    It relies on your opponents accepting the apology and standing down. Of admitting, as you say, that this is a disciplinary offense rather than a sacking one.

    But they won't. The second they sense weakness, the outrage mob will demand more. If Cummings apologises, they will double down on demanding he resign. And if he apologises, he admits wrongdoing, effectively giving them ammunition for their demand.

    So yes, in normal times, you would be right. An apology would make this all go away. But sadly that is not how outrage mobs work. Once they sense weakness, they double down.
    That's right, you really get the impression that in 'normal times' Dom is just the sort of guy to issue a gracious and fulsome apology.

    Bloody outrage mobs, preventing him from following his natural instincts. Come to think of it they should really be the ones apologising to Dom.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,224
    Andy_JS said:

    Interesting evening. Just been talking to three mates, all of whom work for the NHS. One of them is a ward doctor.

    All three say end the lockdown for everyone fit and healthy under 60 – and shield vulnerable groups.

    This sort of risk segmentation strikes me as the best approach.

    Good to hear. I've been saying the same thing for about 6 weeks. Young and healthy people apparently have more chance of being struck by lightning than dying from the virus.
    Must be a lot of lighting in Brazil.
    https://twitter.com/AndyBiotech/status/1264232233956773888
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,224
    kyf_100 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What ever happened to a good old fashioned apology?

    Can I use an analogy. Dominic Cummings has done something wrong. But it's a detention level offence, not an expelling one. He acted with understandable intentions, but he did break the rules set by the government to which he is a senior advisor.

    If he'd said "I did what I thought was best for my family. I realise that this meant I overstepped the rules that were in place and given my position I was wrong to do that, and I apologise", then I think we could and should move on.

    But we live in an environment where no-one (in a position of authority) ever admits to error. Instead, we have angry denials that anything was done that was wrong.

    That kind of stinks. He did break the rules. He shouldn't have been shuttling between London, Durham and that other place. He should apologise for breaking the rules and we should move on.

    Instead we get the combative "fight them on the beaches" attitude.

    Man up Dominic, and admit what you did was wrong. Apologise for it.

    That's what we'd expect our children to do. It seems the least we can ask from our government.

    I actually think that's reasonable.

    The trouble is it relies on your opponents being reasonable. And not an outrage mob.

    It relies on your opponents accepting the apology and standing down. Of admitting, as you say, that this is a disciplinary offense rather than a sacking one.

    But they won't. The second they sense weakness, the outrage mob will demand more. If Cummings apologises, they will double down on demanding he resign. And if he apologises, he admits wrongdoing, effectively giving them ammunition for their demand.

    So yes, in normal times, you would be right. An apology would make this all go away. But sadly that is not how outrage mobs work. Once they sense weakness, they double down.
    It relies on being honest about your mistakes.
    Too late now on this one.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    No way for the Gov't to make any sort of school return compulsory now, even if they wanted to. Perhaps even in September - "Doing best for my family" etc...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,224
    .

    OT Vermin Supreme running in third place for the Libertarian Party nomination, don't think he's going to pull it off but you never know
    https://twitter.com/RidgeKnapp/status/1264364597211017216

    Would be pretty confusing to have Vermin Supreme and Trump on the same ballot paper.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:
    What did SAGE advise and when did they advise it?

    At the time I got the impression that Whitty was reluctant to introduce lockdown too soon for fear of it unraveling at the peak of infection.

    Doesn’t absolve the government of responsibility but it may shift some of the “blame”.
    Not really.
    It’s becoming clear that the “guided at all times by the best scientific advice” should add “but sometimes took weeks to act on it”.
    When did SAGE advise lockdown?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Nigelb said:

    .

    OT Vermin Supreme running in third place for the Libertarian Party nomination, don't think he's going to pull it off but you never know
    https://twitter.com/RidgeKnapp/status/1264364597211017216

    Would be pretty confusing to have Vermin Supreme and Trump on the same ballot paper.
    Isn't Joe Exotic running for the job from prison ?
This discussion has been closed.