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  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    Re the discussion about economic changes from wfh etc.

    If there is a permanent shift to wfh with a corresponding transfer of economic activity from the cities to outer suburbs, commuter towns and rural areas how with that affect politics ?

    Well which is the party of the cities and which of the outer suburbs, commuter towns and rural areas ?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,796
    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Good news! Your imported dishwasher make 3% more margin for your retailer, and the price is merely the loss of the UK farming industry. Marvellous stuff!
    UK farming voted for Brexit.
    I voted for Brexit! At no point did I seriously think that would see the UK sail off the edge of the world as we're about to. I have to assume farmers were of a similar mind - free trade without the political union. Why a country who literally ruled the world thanks to free trade wants to do a unique experiment by becoming the only country in the world to stop free trade is beyond me.
    I think you had to look at your fellow travellers which would have made it a trivial exercise to work out that it was going to be a shitshow. You and others on this site might have had a noble, sensible, and workable idea of Brexit, but 99.8% of the other Brexiters, and 99.9% of the Brexiters in power, or who were likely to be in power, were fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists.

    As you are now finding out.
    As I have said here and elsewhere Mea Culpa Mea, Maxima Culpa. In the space of less than a year I voted for Corbyn and voted for Brexit. I will leave it up to you good people to advise if this was my worst year of political misjudgement or the year when I nodded in support of the TIGgers, quit Labour, joined the LibDems, then went back to Labour.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Friend of Israel, a women, Indian, strong on immigration . a Brexit supporter.

    Pretty much something for everyone on the left to latch onto there - a prejudice for every day of the week to indulge.

    Yes, it's a pity her palpable intellectual inadequacy for high office gives cover for those whose main beef with her is that she's an Indian female authoritarian pro-Israel hard leaver.
    What intellectual inadequacy?
    Three hundred thousand, and thirty four, nine hundred and seventy four thousand.

    Counter-terrorism.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited May 2020

    I have long said that Priti Patel is unsuitable for her office and want her replaced. Gavin Williamson is also way out of his depth

    This crisis has changed everything and my immediate concern is about Boris

    He does go awol at times but it is noticeable that he is not stepping up to the plate and leading the nation

    He should be doing the daily conferences more often and just generally being more on show

    Now many will say he has always been like this, and others make far more personal attacks on him because of his brexit stance. However, I am of the opinion that covid has had a real adverse effect on his health, and in view of reports last night, he may not recover sufficiently to carry on

    He has big decisions in front of him, especially over no deal brexit, and I expect the slide in the polls both as pm and party to continue through the summer.

    There will not be a GE before 2024 and as has been said the more unpopular the government, the less likely for an early GE, especially with an 80 seat majority. I was surprised that Patel's bill sailed through last night with a majority of 99 - (351-252)

    Starmer is enjoying a honeymoon period in ideal conditions for labour post the Corbyn era and with the benefit of hindsight in HMG handling of covid

    I am disappointed with Boris and he needs to lift his game

    Boris's game is acting like a humorous buffoon while others underneath him do the real work. I suspect that isn't what you are hoping for but Boris has a problem in that he can't appoint the same quality of people he had as mayor as as PM he only has 300 odd MPs to choice from not the entire population of the world.

    And a lot of those 300 really don't like him.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    TGOHF666 said:
    Good news! Your imported dishwasher make 3% more margin for your retailer, and the price is merely the loss of the UK farming industry. Marvellous stuff!
    UK farming voted for Brexit.
    I voted for Brexit! At no point did I seriously think that would see the UK sail off the edge of the world as we're about to. I have to assume farmers were of a similar mind - free trade without the political union. Why a country who literally ruled the world thanks to free trade wants to do a unique experiment by becoming the only country in the world to stop free trade is beyond me.
    Well we keep saying to the EU we want a free trade agreement. And they keep playing silly buggers.

    Personally I think they are just overplaying their hand rather than any malice but whatever
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    IanB2 said:

    BBC: US President Donald Trump has said he is taking hydroxychloroquine to ward off coronavirus, even though health officials have warned it may be unsafe.

    https://twitter.com/HoarseWisperer/status/1262488963639623680
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    I have long said that Priti Patel is unsuitable for her office and want her replaced. Gavin Williamson is also way out of his depth

    This crisis has changed everything and my immediate concern is about Boris

    He does go awol at times but it is noticeable that he is not stepping up to the plate and leading the nation

    He should be doing the daily conferences more often and just generally being more on show

    Now many will say he has always been like this, and others make far more personal attacks on him because of his brexit stance. However, I am of the opinion that covid has had a real adverse effect on his health, and in view of reports last night, he may not recover sufficiently to carry on

    He has big decisions in front of him, especially over no deal brexit, and I expect the slide in the polls both as pm and party to continue through the summer.

    There will not be a GE before 2024 and as has been said the more unpopular the government, the less likely for an early GE, especially with an 80 seat majority. I was surprised that Patel's bill sailed through last night with a majority of 99 - (351-252)

    Starmer is enjoying a honeymoon period in ideal conditions for labour post the Corbyn era and with the benefit of hindsight in HMG handling of covid

    I am disappointed with Boris and he needs to lift his game

    Whilst you were always going to vote Conservative in 2019, I have never understood why you nailed your colours so firmly to the Boris‘ mast. You have gone ‘all in’ with Boris despite his cabinet and sacking of moderates.

    All the other moderate Conservatives here didn’t do that. Committed serious moderate Conservative posters actually left the party.

    You have been a strange outlier.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    Nigelb said:
    I have no idea
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Good news! Your imported dishwasher make 3% more margin for your retailer, and the price is merely the loss of the UK farming industry. Marvellous stuff!
    UK farming voted for Brexit.
    I voted for Brexit! At no point did I seriously think that would see the UK sail off the edge of the world as we're about to. I have to assume farmers were of a similar mind - free trade without the political union. Why a country who literally ruled the world thanks to free trade wants to do a unique experiment by becoming the only country in the world to stop free trade is beyond me.
    I think you had to look at your fellow travellers which would have made it a trivial exercise to work out that it was going to be a shitshow. You and others on this site might have had a noble, sensible, and workable idea of Brexit, but 99.8% of the other Brexiters, and 99.9% of the Brexiters in power, or who were likely to be in power, were fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists.

    As you are now finding out.
    That's just nonsense and beneath you.

    The fruitcake, loonies and closet [or even quite open] racists were in the vicious Leave.EU grouping during the referendum.

    Vote Leave made sure to do as much as they can to put clear water between the Leave.EU racists etc and themselves - and quite right too.

    Tony Blair was prepared to have Jeremy Corbyn as a fellow Labour MP in his government despite knowing what he was. The Brexiteers in Vote Leave were not prepared to share a platform with Farage etc
    Oh no! You're off on one of your comic black is white really it is exercises.

    So it's a Peoples' Front of Judea thing is it? Vote Leave was chock full of racists while Leave.EU was pure as the driven snow. Or was it the other way round. Would be very interested to see the entry questionnaires for both organisations so that they could filter out the "right" type of leaver for each.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    Nigelb said:
    It doesn't - doing the opposite would have done but hey our trade negotiators aren't the brightest.,
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    (FPT, HYUFD linked to what I thought a very good article on China)
    HYUFD said:
    Interesting article.

    By this definition, is the US under Trump a modern state ? :wink:

    ... Most early states were what Max Weber labeled “patrimonial”—that is, the state grew out of the household of the ruler and was based on personal relationships between the ruler and his friends and family. An impersonal state, by contrast, is centralized, bureaucratic, and operates according to rules rather than being governed by the mere whim of the ruler....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Has anyone told Trump about Paracetamoxyfrusebendroneomycin?

    Isn’t that the treatment for ricin?
    And SARS ...
    so it might work, but then it can be taken up the ....
    As well as the common cold. So definitely has potential.

    I wish CNN would ask Trump about it
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,360

    TGOHF666 said:
    Good news! Your imported dishwasher make 3% more margin for your retailer, and the price is merely the loss of the UK farming industry. Marvellous stuff!
    UK farming voted for Brexit.
    I voted for Brexit! At no point did I seriously think that would see the UK sail off the edge of the world as we're about to. I have to assume farmers were of a similar mind - free trade without the political union. Why a country who literally ruled the world thanks to free trade wants to do a unique experiment by becoming the only country in the world to stop free trade is beyond me.
    You will never get clarity from the farming interest as to what they want. There are several reasons for this. Farmers simply always complain about government, and indeed authority of any description. Secondly as a group they are fairly indifferent or hostile to migration into the countryside except those they need on their own land. Thirdly, they are passionate about free markets for exports but at the same time protectionist about imports of foodstuffs. Fourthly they are addicted to both open and hidden subsidy of every sort but have no intention of saying so.

    As a consequence farmers were and are by and large both strongly in favour of, and strongly opposed to, the EU and the CAP.

    (These, BTW, are the thoughts of one who is very pro British farming and farmers)

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,898
    My other half has done one of those facebook politics tests, she is 91% towards the reds on the communist/market axis.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    eek said:

    I have long said that Priti Patel is unsuitable for her office and want her replaced. Gavin Williamson is also way out of his depth

    This crisis has changed everything and my immediate concern is about Boris

    He does go awol at times but it is noticeable that he is not stepping up to the plate and leading the nation

    He should be doing the daily conferences more often and just generally being more on show

    Now many will say he has always been like this, and others make far more personal attacks on him because of his brexit stance. However, I am of the opinion that covid has had a real adverse effect on his health, and in view of reports last night, he may not recover sufficiently to carry on

    He has big decisions in front of him, especially over no deal brexit, and I expect the slide in the polls both as pm and party to continue through the summer.

    There will not be a GE before 2024 and as has been said the more unpopular the government, the less likely for an early GE, especially with an 80 seat majority. I was surprised that Patel's bill sailed through last night with a majority of 99 - (351-252)

    Starmer is enjoying a honeymoon period in ideal conditions for labour post the Corbyn era and with the benefit of hindsight in HMG handling of covid

    I am disappointed with Boris and he needs to lift his game

    Boris's game is acting like a humorous buffoon while others underneath him do the real work. I suspect that isn't what you are hoping for but Boris has a problem in that he can't appoint the same quality of people he had as mayor as as PM he only has 300 odd MPs to choice from not the entire population of the world.

    And a lot of those 300 really don't like him.
    Disappointed?!?!? It was bleeding obvious he was never up to the job. Well you and your Tory chums lumbered us with him so he's your problem to deal with.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,796

    Re the discussion about economic changes from wfh etc.

    If there is a permanent shift to wfh with a corresponding transfer of economic activity from the cities to outer suburbs, commuter towns and rural areas how with that affect politics ?

    Well which is the party of the cities and which of the outer suburbs, commuter towns and rural areas ?

    There IS a permanent shift. Companies spend £fucktons of their own money maintaining large expensive offices. During the pandemic they have discovered that they can get 90% of the output from their employees and 10% of the costs.

    Expect a significant downsizing of offices over the next few years. Companies will spend some cash on IT kit for employees and networking infrastructure and then save a fortune binning off the large office with all the costs related to that to shift to flexible meeting hubs. If you are part of the support economy - office letting / building management / cleaning / coffee shacks / twatty hipster vegan wrap delivery / urban convenience stores etc etc etc you are screwed. As are the train companies.

    Never mind a windfall tax on supermarkets, there needs to be a WFH tax on companies who downsize. They are going to cash in big time.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Good news! Your imported dishwasher make 3% more margin for your retailer, and the price is merely the loss of the UK farming industry. Marvellous stuff!
    UK farming voted for Brexit.
    I voted for Brexit! At no point did I seriously think that would see the UK sail off the edge of the world as we're about to. I have to assume farmers were of a similar mind - free trade without the political union. Why a country who literally ruled the world thanks to free trade wants to do a unique experiment by becoming the only country in the world to stop free trade is beyond me.
    I think you had to look at your fellow travellers which would have made it a trivial exercise to work out that it was going to be a shitshow. You and others on this site might have had a noble, sensible, and workable idea of Brexit, but 99.8% of the other Brexiters, and 99.9% of the Brexiters in power, or who were likely to be in power, were fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists.

    As you are now finding out.
    As I have said here and elsewhere Mea Culpa Mea, Maxima Culpa. In the space of less than a year I voted for Corbyn and voted for Brexit. I will leave it up to you good people to advise if this was my worst year of political misjudgement or the year when I nodded in support of the TIGgers, quit Labour, joined the LibDems, then went back to Labour.
    With that story you are the Tories poster child.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Dura_Ace said:

    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Friend of Israel, a women, Indian, strong on immigration . a Brexit supporter.

    Pretty much something for everyone on the left to latch onto there - a prejudice for every day of the week to indulge.

    Yes, it's a pity her palpable intellectual inadequacy for high office gives cover for those whose main beef with her is that she's an Indian female authoritarian pro-Israel hard leaver.
    What intellectual inadequacy?
    Three hundred thousand, and thirty four, nine hundred and seventy four thousand.

    Counter-terrorism.
    A slip of the tongue? Wow (!)

    Yeah getting tongue tied is really intellectualy inadequate (!)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    TGOHF666 said:

    Still a chance of an exotic holiday this summer - in McCuba.

    https://twitter.com/heraldscotland/status/1262635978424037376?s=21

    Dear God Harry, you are worse than HYFUD with your thick unionist lying toerags and their absolute hogwash.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I have long said that Priti Patel is unsuitable for her office and want her replaced. Gavin Williamson is also way out of his depth

    This crisis has changed everything and my immediate concern is about Boris

    He does go awol at times but it is noticeable that he is not stepping up to the plate and leading the nation

    He should be doing the daily conferences more often and just generally being more on show

    Now many will say he has always been like this, and others make far more personal attacks on him because of his brexit stance. However, I am of the opinion that covid has had a real adverse effect on his health, and in view of reports last night, he may not recover sufficiently to carry on

    He has big decisions in front of him, especially over no deal brexit, and I expect the slide in the polls both as pm and party to continue through the summer.

    There will not be a GE before 2024 and as has been said the more unpopular the government, the less likely for an early GE, especially with an 80 seat majority. I was surprised that Patel's bill sailed through last night with a majority of 99 - (351-252)

    Starmer is enjoying a honeymoon period in ideal conditions for labour post the Corbyn era and with the benefit of hindsight in HMG handling of covid

    I am disappointed with Boris and he needs to lift his game

    My cousin’s wife (late 20s) has just recovered. It took her 2 months from leaving hospital to be able to breath properly
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    TGOHF666 said:
    How does unilaterally eliminating tariffs give us leverage? Surely a higher tariff with the promise of removing it in a trade deal does that.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,796
    Charles said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Good news! Your imported dishwasher make 3% more margin for your retailer, and the price is merely the loss of the UK farming industry. Marvellous stuff!
    UK farming voted for Brexit.
    I voted for Brexit! At no point did I seriously think that would see the UK sail off the edge of the world as we're about to. I have to assume farmers were of a similar mind - free trade without the political union. Why a country who literally ruled the world thanks to free trade wants to do a unique experiment by becoming the only country in the world to stop free trade is beyond me.
    Well we keep saying to the EU we want a free trade agreement. And they keep playing silly buggers.

    Personally I think they are just overplaying their hand rather than any malice but whatever
    No, we don't want a free trade agreement. We already have a free trade agreement in the EEA. What we want is all the benefits of EEA with the ability to change standards and do our own external deals. Which means the EEA have to maintain their own standards and that means checks at their external border and that means no free trade.

    You have free trade areas and agreements to have free trade. You don't uniquely tear up every free trade agreement we have and then declare that finally we have free trade.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177

    Article on the BBC website regarding evidence of a VE Day spike in Covid infections.

    I almost fainted with surprise.

    Classic cherry pick. And is the time-line right to progress from contact on May 8th to need for hospital on May 14th?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    I know that this article was touched upon yesterday but it seems to me to have great significance: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/superspreader-events-may-responsible-80-percent-coronavirus/

    What it suggests to me is that the R number, with which we are all currently obsessed, is largely irrelevant. It is an average for the number of people infected by those currently infected but it is completely misleading. If the research by the Turing Institute is correct many, perhaps most, who have the virus are barely infectious at all, only a risk to those with compromised immune systems and family members where there is prolonged exposure. In contrast, as in the SK nightclub case recently, some people can produce staggering quantities of the virus and infect hundreds of people in a relatively short time. The average between these two, the R number is not particularly meaningful.

    What the super spreader hypothesis suggests to me is that very fast testing and indeed the app are going to be critical to coming out of lockdown safely. If a super spreader is active every hour until he or she is traced will cause another wave of infection. It continues to trouble me that the speed of testing and the app are still not available.

    We also need to try and find out what makes a super spreader. If they tend to get infected early it might be a reason for the virus "burning out" as those who can spread it more rapidly diminish leaving the rest to spread the virus very slowly, if at all. If we can accelerate this process by identifying super spreaders we could have a major impact on transmission.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    Pulpstar said:

    My other half has done one of those facebook politics tests, she is 91% towards the reds on the communist/market axis.

    Isn't that further left than Lenin ?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Good news! Your imported dishwasher make 3% more margin for your retailer, and the price is merely the loss of the UK farming industry. Marvellous stuff!
    UK farming voted for Brexit.
    I voted for Brexit! At no point did I seriously think that would see the UK sail off the edge of the world as we're about to. I have to assume farmers were of a similar mind - free trade without the political union. Why a country who literally ruled the world thanks to free trade wants to do a unique experiment by becoming the only country in the world to stop free trade is beyond me.
    I think you had to look at your fellow travellers which would have made it a trivial exercise to work out that it was going to be a shitshow. You and others on this site might have had a noble, sensible, and workable idea of Brexit, but 99.8% of the other Brexiters, and 99.9% of the Brexiters in power, or who were likely to be in power, were fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists.

    As you are now finding out.
    That's just nonsense and beneath you.

    The fruitcake, loonies and closet [or even quite open] racists were in the vicious Leave.EU grouping during the referendum.

    Vote Leave made sure to do as much as they can to put clear water between the Leave.EU racists etc and themselves - and quite right too.

    Tony Blair was prepared to have Jeremy Corbyn as a fellow Labour MP in his government despite knowing what he was. The Brexiteers in Vote Leave were not prepared to share a platform with Farage etc
    Oh no! You're off on one of your comic black is white really it is exercises.

    So it's a Peoples' Front of Judea thing is it? Vote Leave was chock full of racists while Leave.EU was pure as the driven snow. Or was it the other way round. Would be very interested to see the entry questionnaires for both organisations so that they could filter out the "right" type of leaver for each.
    It was quite clearly the other way around.

    Leave.EU and UKIP were the ones with bloody disgusting images like "Breaking Point" that were roundly condemned by the Vote Leave campaigners.

    There are good and bad people for almost any thinking. Does the fact that there were anti-Semites who voted for Tony Blair's Labour Party make Tony Blair's government and anyone who voted for it anti-Semitic? No, that's preposterous.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,528
    Pulpstar said:

    My other half has done one of those facebook politics tests, she is 91% towards the reds on the communist/market axis.

    Big Dom has got all of her data now.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,113
    algarkirk said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Good news! Your imported dishwasher make 3% more margin for your retailer, and the price is merely the loss of the UK farming industry. Marvellous stuff!
    UK farming voted for Brexit.
    I voted for Brexit! At no point did I seriously think that would see the UK sail off the edge of the world as we're about to. I have to assume farmers were of a similar mind - free trade without the political union. Why a country who literally ruled the world thanks to free trade wants to do a unique experiment by becoming the only country in the world to stop free trade is beyond me.
    You will never get clarity from the farming interest as to what they want. There are several reasons for this. Farmers simply always complain about government, and indeed authority of any description. Secondly as a group they are fairly indifferent or hostile to migration into the countryside except those they need on their own land. Thirdly, they are passionate about free markets for exports but at the same time protectionist about imports of foodstuffs. Fourthly they are addicted to both open and hidden subsidy of every sort but have no intention of saying so.

    As a consequence farmers were and are by and large both strongly in favour of, and strongly opposed to, the EU and the CAP.

    (These, BTW, are the thoughts of one who is very pro British farming and farmers)

    That`s a good post. Chimes with conversations with our village farmer.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    ydoethur said:

    I’m amazed at these findings.

    Who are these idiots who view Priti Patel favourably?

    Living where I do I come into contact with members of her Conservative Association. Many of them think she's wonderful, but then face to face she's very pleasant and courteous.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Friend of Israel, a women, Indian, strong on immigration . a Brexit supporter.

    Pretty much something for everyone on the left to latch onto there - a prejudice for every day of the week to indulge.

    Yes, it's a pity her palpable intellectual inadequacy for high office gives cover for those whose main beef with her is that she's an Indian female authoritarian pro-Israel hard leaver.
    Except for Indian and female, as an 'authoritarian pro-Israel hard leaver' she does tick the boxes for an old school Conservative Home Secretary, and a hanger and flogger to boot.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,576

    Dura_Ace said:

    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Friend of Israel, a women, Indian, strong on immigration . a Brexit supporter.

    Pretty much something for everyone on the left to latch onto there - a prejudice for every day of the week to indulge.

    Yes, it's a pity her palpable intellectual inadequacy for high office gives cover for those whose main beef with her is that she's an Indian female authoritarian pro-Israel hard leaver.
    What intellectual inadequacy?
    Three hundred thousand, and thirty four, nine hundred and seventy four thousand.

    Counter-terrorism.
    A slip of the tongue? Wow (!)

    Yeah getting tongue tied is really intellectualy inadequate (!)
    My own theory is Patel was reading a badly formatted number from her script. I'm hoping she will reintroduce hanging for people who paste numbers into documents without commas or spaces.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470

    Re the discussion about economic changes from wfh etc.

    If there is a permanent shift to wfh with a corresponding transfer of economic activity from the cities to outer suburbs, commuter towns and rural areas how with that affect politics ?

    Well which is the party of the cities and which of the outer suburbs, commuter towns and rural areas ?

    There IS a permanent shift. Companies spend £fucktons of their own money maintaining large expensive offices. During the pandemic they have discovered that they can get 90% of the output from their employees and 10% of the costs.

    Expect a significant downsizing of offices over the next few years. Companies will spend some cash on IT kit for employees and networking infrastructure and then save a fortune binning off the large office with all the costs related to that to shift to flexible meeting hubs. If you are part of the support economy - office letting / building management / cleaning / coffee shacks / twatty hipster vegan wrap delivery / urban convenience stores etc etc etc you are screwed. As are the train companies.

    Never mind a windfall tax on supermarkets, there needs to be a WFH tax on companies who downsize. They are going to cash in big time.
    The wfh tax will likely be the higher income tax and NI that will eventually result.

    Another change which might happen is an increase in part time working.

    Its easier to work part time from home then if you have time and cost travel overheads.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    Jonathan said:

    I have long said that Priti Patel is unsuitable for her office and want her replaced. Gavin Williamson is also way out of his depth

    This crisis has changed everything and my immediate concern is about Boris

    He does go awol at times but it is noticeable that he is not stepping up to the plate and leading the nation

    He should be doing the daily conferences more often and just generally being more on show

    Now many will say he has always been like this, and others make far more personal attacks on him because of his brexit stance. However, I am of the opinion that covid has had a real adverse effect on his health, and in view of reports last night, he may not recover sufficiently to carry on

    He has big decisions in front of him, especially over no deal brexit, and I expect the slide in the polls both as pm and party to continue through the summer.

    There will not be a GE before 2024 and as has been said the more unpopular the government, the less likely for an early GE, especially with an 80 seat majority. I was surprised that Patel's bill sailed through last night with a majority of 99 - (351-252)

    Starmer is enjoying a honeymoon period in ideal conditions for labour post the Corbyn era and with the benefit of hindsight in HMG handling of covid

    I am disappointed with Boris and he needs to lift his game

    Whilst you were always going to vote Conservative in 2019, I have never understood why you nailed your colours so firmly to the Boris‘ mast. You have gone ‘all in’ with Boris despite his cabinet and sacking of moderates.

    All the other moderate Conservatives here didn’t do that. Committed serious moderate Conservative posters actually left the party.

    You have been a strange outlier.
    He sacked remainer mps like Grieve and others who were actively trying to undermine brexit. Your serious moderate posters were all pro EU

    I support Boris and brexit and want it concluded.

    Furthermore I want the UK to be able to make its own laws on tax and state aid without interference from Brussels or the ECJ

    However, I am not giving Boris a free pass but want him to step up to the plate
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2020

    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Friend of Israel, a women, Indian, strong on immigration . a Brexit supporter.

    Pretty much something for everyone on the left to latch onto there - a prejudice for every day of the week to indulge.

    Yes, it's a pity her palpable intellectual inadequacy for high office gives cover for those whose main beef with her is that she's an Indian female authoritarian pro-Israel hard leaver.
    What intellectual inadequacy?

    She strikes me as quite bright and she had a successful career outside of Parliament before joining it. Not being someone you like doesn't make them intellectually inadequate - I don't like Starmer or his politics but I wouldn't call him an idiot.
    I agree she is quite bright but unfortunately she is poor at her job and shows no compassion. She is not an asset to the party in this covid environment
    Compassion far, far more than intellect is a valid criticism.

    Though she shows more compassion than many previous Home Secretaries ever did. She's miles ahead of David Cameron's Home Secretary on that front.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,284

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    If anyone wants bay leaves I have an entire trees worth of them in my garden. Seriously, who imports bay leaves?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited May 2020
    Chris_A said:

    eek said:

    I have long said that Priti Patel is unsuitable for her office and want her replaced. Gavin Williamson is also way out of his depth

    This crisis has changed everything and my immediate concern is about Boris

    He does go awol at times but it is noticeable that he is not stepping up to the plate and leading the nation

    He should be doing the daily conferences more often and just generally being more on show

    Now many will say he has always been like this, and others make far more personal attacks on him because of his brexit stance. However, I am of the opinion that covid has had a real adverse effect on his health, and in view of reports last night, he may not recover sufficiently to carry on

    He has big decisions in front of him, especially over no deal brexit, and I expect the slide in the polls both as pm and party to continue through the summer.

    There will not be a GE before 2024 and as has been said the more unpopular the government, the less likely for an early GE, especially with an 80 seat majority. I was surprised that Patel's bill sailed through last night with a majority of 99 - (351-252)

    Starmer is enjoying a honeymoon period in ideal conditions for labour post the Corbyn era and with the benefit of hindsight in HMG handling of covid

    I am disappointed with Boris and he needs to lift his game

    Boris's game is acting like a humorous buffoon while others underneath him do the real work. I suspect that isn't what you are hoping for but Boris has a problem in that he can't appoint the same quality of people he had as mayor as as PM he only has 300 odd MPs to choice from not the entire population of the world.

    And a lot of those 300 really don't like him.
    Disappointed?!?!? It was bleeding obvious he was never up to the job. Well you and your Tory chums lumbered us with him so he's your problem to deal with.
    I hope that wasn't aimed at me - I'm not a Tory and I didn't vote for my new (Tory) MP as he failed my question on NI - where he assured me there would be zero paperwork.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Dura_Ace said:

    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Friend of Israel, a women, Indian, strong on immigration . a Brexit supporter.

    Pretty much something for everyone on the left to latch onto there - a prejudice for every day of the week to indulge.

    Yes, it's a pity her palpable intellectual inadequacy for high office gives cover for those whose main beef with her is that she's an Indian female authoritarian pro-Israel hard leaver.
    What intellectual inadequacy?
    Three hundred thousand, and thirty four, nine hundred and seventy four thousand.

    Counter-terrorism.
    A slip of the tongue? Wow (!)

    Yeah getting tongue tied is really intellectualy inadequate (!)
    She went on television and said "counter-terrorism" 15 times when she meant "terrorism". So, yes, she is intellectually inadequate to be Home Sec.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,576
    Stocky said:

    algarkirk said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Good news! Your imported dishwasher make 3% more margin for your retailer, and the price is merely the loss of the UK farming industry. Marvellous stuff!
    UK farming voted for Brexit.
    I voted for Brexit! At no point did I seriously think that would see the UK sail off the edge of the world as we're about to. I have to assume farmers were of a similar mind - free trade without the political union. Why a country who literally ruled the world thanks to free trade wants to do a unique experiment by becoming the only country in the world to stop free trade is beyond me.
    You will never get clarity from the farming interest as to what they want. There are several reasons for this. Farmers simply always complain about government, and indeed authority of any description. Secondly as a group they are fairly indifferent or hostile to migration into the countryside except those they need on their own land. Thirdly, they are passionate about free markets for exports but at the same time protectionist about imports of foodstuffs. Fourthly they are addicted to both open and hidden subsidy of every sort but have no intention of saying so.

    As a consequence farmers were and are by and large both strongly in favour of, and strongly opposed to, the EU and the CAP.

    (These, BTW, are the thoughts of one who is very pro British farming and farmers)

    That`s a good post. Chimes with conversations with our village farmer.
    Farming varies from cows to spuds, and from smallholders to global agribusinesses. It is not that surprising they speak with more than one voice.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    I'm interested in this idea that extended families have to live in one dwelling. They don't.

    You can look at immigrant families - thinking back to when I lived in BD7 some time ago Muslim families would live across several small terraced houses, or in one larger terraced house. In student terms these would be 4 bedders or 8 bedders respectively.

    Where I am now, I know various families who have moved en bloc to this area - one have come from Somerset way and now parents and both grown up daughters + families are within half a mile or so. Others stay local. That takes a load off services.

    Does this have more to do with the idea that the traditional family is in some way made obsolete by all the other kinds that have come along in the last decades, and a perceived need to demolish what is there to make way for the new?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Article on the BBC website regarding evidence of a VE Day spike in Covid infections.

    I almost fainted with surprise.

    Classic cherry pick. And is the time-line right to progress from contact on May 8th to need for hospital on May 14th?
    By most reckonings too fast. 5-7 days for start of symptoms - then a week or more for hospital admission usually required. Could trace back to the beginning of May....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    DavidL said:

    I know that this article was touched upon yesterday but it seems to me to have great significance: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/superspreader-events-may-responsible-80-percent-coronavirus/

    What it suggests to me is that the R number, with which we are all currently obsessed, is largely irrelevant. It is an average for the number of people infected by those currently infected but it is completely misleading. If the research by the Turing Institute is correct many, perhaps most, who have the virus are barely infectious at all, only a risk to those with compromised immune systems and family members where there is prolonged exposure. In contrast, as in the SK nightclub case recently, some people can produce staggering quantities of the virus and infect hundreds of people in a relatively short time. The average between these two, the R number is not particularly meaningful.

    What the super spreader hypothesis suggests to me is that very fast testing and indeed the app are going to be critical to coming out of lockdown safely. If a super spreader is active every hour until he or she is traced will cause another wave of infection. It continues to trouble me that the speed of testing and the app are still not available.

    We also need to try and find out what makes a super spreader. If they tend to get infected early it might be a reason for the virus "burning out" as those who can spread it more rapidly diminish leaving the rest to spread the virus very slowly, if at all. If we can accelerate this process by identifying super spreaders we could have a major impact on transmission.

    You are conflating 'superspreader events' with 'superspreader'.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    edited May 2020
    Boris still the preferred pick with Tory voters and Leavers though on 89% and 76% favourable, to 78% and 68% for Rishi Sunak

    Having favourable ratings from Labour, LD and Remain voters is of little use unless they would vote for you over Starmer, even more so when we are likely to be on WTO terms Brexit in a year
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    edited May 2020

    Jonathan said:

    I have long said that Priti Patel is unsuitable for her office and want her replaced. Gavin Williamson is also way out of his depth

    This crisis has changed everything and my immediate concern is about Boris

    He does go awol at times but it is noticeable that he is not stepping up to the plate and leading the nation

    He should be doing the daily conferences more often and just generally being more on show

    Now many will say he has always been like this, and others make far more personal attacks on him because of his brexit stance. However, I am of the opinion that covid has had a real adverse effect on his health, and in view of reports last night, he may not recover sufficiently to carry on

    He has big decisions in front of him, especially over no deal brexit, and I expect the slide in the polls both as pm and party to continue through the summer.

    There will not be a GE before 2024 and as has been said the more unpopular the government, the less likely for an early GE, especially with an 80 seat majority. I was surprised that Patel's bill sailed through last night with a majority of 99 - (351-252)

    Starmer is enjoying a honeymoon period in ideal conditions for labour post the Corbyn era and with the benefit of hindsight in HMG handling of covid

    I am disappointed with Boris and he needs to lift his game

    Whilst you were always going to vote Conservative in 2019, I have never understood why you nailed your colours so firmly to the Boris‘ mast. You have gone ‘all in’ with Boris despite his cabinet and sacking of moderates.

    All the other moderate Conservatives here didn’t do that. Committed serious moderate Conservative posters actually left the party.

    You have been a strange outlier.
    He sacked remainer mps like Grieve and others who were actively trying to undermine brexit. Your serious moderate posters were all pro EU

    I support Boris and brexit and want it concluded.

    Furthermore I want the UK to be able to make its own laws on tax and state aid without interference from Brussels or the ECJ

    However, I am not giving Boris a free pass but want him to step up to the plate
    I don't know how to break it to you but the Boris you see now is as good as you will get

    Unless you have had blinkers on for the past 20 years I really cannot see how you can think there is another (none workshy, competent) Boris about to appear.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    Quite the opposite - it will make a prompt deal more attractive.

    "But tariffs will remain on UK-produced cars - at 10% - and on agricultural products including lamb, beef and butter at their current levels, following concerns that these industries could be decimated by Brexit.

    These new tariffs will be applied to trade with any country with which the UK has not negotiated a trade deal by the time the transition period ends on 31 December."
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    Leave.EU and UKIP were the ones with bloody disgusting images like "Breaking Point" that were roundly condemned by the Vote Leave campaigners.

    Only after the result

    You were quite happy to march under the same banner till the votes were counted
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    I know that this article was touched upon yesterday but it seems to me to have great significance: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/superspreader-events-may-responsible-80-percent-coronavirus/

    What it suggests to me is that the R number, with which we are all currently obsessed, is largely irrelevant. It is an average for the number of people infected by those currently infected but it is completely misleading. If the research by the Turing Institute is correct many, perhaps most, who have the virus are barely infectious at all, only a risk to those with compromised immune systems and family members where there is prolonged exposure. In contrast, as in the SK nightclub case recently, some people can produce staggering quantities of the virus and infect hundreds of people in a relatively short time. The average between these two, the R number is not particularly meaningful.

    What the super spreader hypothesis suggests to me is that very fast testing and indeed the app are going to be critical to coming out of lockdown safely. If a super spreader is active every hour until he or she is traced will cause another wave of infection. It continues to trouble me that the speed of testing and the app are still not available.

    We also need to try and find out what makes a super spreader. If they tend to get infected early it might be a reason for the virus "burning out" as those who can spread it more rapidly diminish leaving the rest to spread the virus very slowly, if at all. If we can accelerate this process by identifying super spreaders we could have a major impact on transmission.

    You are conflating 'superspreader events' with 'superspreader'.
    Yes, but you can only have the first (AIUI) if the second is present. Someone has to be producing clouds of the virus.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:

    Leave.EU and UKIP were the ones with bloody disgusting images like "Breaking Point" that were roundly condemned by the Vote Leave campaigners.

    Only after the result

    You were quite happy to march under the same banner till the votes were counted
    Bullshit.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,555

    Jonathan said:

    I have long said that Priti Patel is unsuitable for her office and want her replaced. Gavin Williamson is also way out of his depth

    This crisis has changed everything and my immediate concern is about Boris

    He does go awol at times but it is noticeable that he is not stepping up to the plate and leading the nation

    He should be doing the daily conferences more often and just generally being more on show

    Now many will say he has always been like this, and others make far more personal attacks on him because of his brexit stance. However, I am of the opinion that covid has had a real adverse effect on his health, and in view of reports last night, he may not recover sufficiently to carry on

    He has big decisions in front of him, especially over no deal brexit, and I expect the slide in the polls both as pm and party to continue through the summer.

    There will not be a GE before 2024 and as has been said the more unpopular the government, the less likely for an early GE, especially with an 80 seat majority. I was surprised that Patel's bill sailed through last night with a majority of 99 - (351-252)

    Starmer is enjoying a honeymoon period in ideal conditions for labour post the Corbyn era and with the benefit of hindsight in HMG handling of covid

    I am disappointed with Boris and he needs to lift his game

    Whilst you were always going to vote Conservative in 2019, I have never understood why you nailed your colours so firmly to the Boris‘ mast. You have gone ‘all in’ with Boris despite his cabinet and sacking of moderates.

    All the other moderate Conservatives here didn’t do that. Committed serious moderate Conservative posters actually left the party.

    You have been a strange outlier.
    He sacked remainer mps like Grieve and others who were actively trying to undermine brexit. Your serious moderate posters were all pro EU

    I support Boris and brexit and want it concluded.

    Furthermore I want the UK to be able to make its own laws on tax and state aid without interference from Brussels or the ECJ

    However, I am not giving Boris a free pass but want him to step up to the plate
    Clarifications.

    Some of those Boris sacked voted for Brexit more often than Boris did and some of his cabinet.

    Those around here that resigned did not resign over Brexit, but over Boris’ aggressive policy.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Sunak and Patel's ratings make sense. Johnson's enduring popularity is just a mystery to me - I assume it's some kind of weird English class thing.

    Not sure about class, but it’s definitely weird and it’s definitely an English thing.
    Yes, a lot of forelock tugging still present south of the border.
    How so? People say this but I cannot say I've ever really noticed much respect or deference toward upper class people. I dont rule out the possibility but it feels like one of those certainties that people rarely bother to test or prove.
    I don't think it's deference towards poshos so much as being charmed by them; Bertie Woosterism is much more insidious than any allegiance to Debretts.

    Of course the inclination of some to turn into slobbering imbeciles in the presence of royalty is something different again.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,077
    TGOHF666 said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    Quite the opposite - it will make a prompt deal more attractive.

    "But tariffs will remain on UK-produced cars - at 10% - and on agricultural products including lamb, beef and butter at their current levels, following concerns that these industries could be decimated by Brexit.

    These new tariffs will be applied to trade with any country with which the UK has not negotiated a trade deal by the time the transition period ends on 31 December."
    We are so stupid that we are charging import tariffs on UK produced cars.... Knowing this Government that fact wouldn't surprise me.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2020
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have long said that Priti Patel is unsuitable for her office and want her replaced. Gavin Williamson is also way out of his depth

    This crisis has changed everything and my immediate concern is about Boris

    He does go awol at times but it is noticeable that he is not stepping up to the plate and leading the nation

    He should be doing the daily conferences more often and just generally being more on show

    Now many will say he has always been like this, and others make far more personal attacks on him because of his brexit stance. However, I am of the opinion that covid has had a real adverse effect on his health, and in view of reports last night, he may not recover sufficiently to carry on

    He has big decisions in front of him, especially over no deal brexit, and I expect the slide in the polls both as pm and party to continue through the summer.

    There will not be a GE before 2024 and as has been said the more unpopular the government, the less likely for an early GE, especially with an 80 seat majority. I was surprised that Patel's bill sailed through last night with a majority of 99 - (351-252)

    Starmer is enjoying a honeymoon period in ideal conditions for labour post the Corbyn era and with the benefit of hindsight in HMG handling of covid

    I am disappointed with Boris and he needs to lift his game

    Whilst you were always going to vote Conservative in 2019, I have never understood why you nailed your colours so firmly to the Boris‘ mast. You have gone ‘all in’ with Boris despite his cabinet and sacking of moderates.

    All the other moderate Conservatives here didn’t do that. Committed serious moderate Conservative posters actually left the party.

    You have been a strange outlier.
    He sacked remainer mps like Grieve and others who were actively trying to undermine brexit. Your serious moderate posters were all pro EU

    I support Boris and brexit and want it concluded.

    Furthermore I want the UK to be able to make its own laws on tax and state aid without interference from Brussels or the ECJ

    However, I am not giving Boris a free pass but want him to step up to the plate
    Clarifications.

    Some of those Boris sacked voted for Brexit more often than Boris did and some of his cabinet.

    Those around here that resigned did not resign over Brexit, but over Boris’ aggressive policy.

    They may have voted for May's deal but they didn't vote for Brexit more than Boris. Boris numerically voted for Brexit more often.

    EDIT: To be clear I mean even if you count May's deal as Brexit. Even if you count May's deal as Brexit then Boris voted for Brexit more.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Good news! Your imported dishwasher make 3% more margin for your retailer, and the price is merely the loss of the UK farming industry. Marvellous stuff!
    UK farming voted for Brexit.
    I voted for Brexit! At no point did I seriously think that would see the UK sail off the edge of the world as we're about to. I have to assume farmers were of a similar mind - free trade without the political union. Why a country who literally ruled the world thanks to free trade wants to do a unique experiment by becoming the only country in the world to stop free trade is beyond me.
    I think you had to look at your fellow travellers which would have made it a trivial exercise to work out that it was going to be a shitshow. You and others on this site might have had a noble, sensible, and workable idea of Brexit, but 99.8% of the other Brexiters, and 99.9% of the Brexiters in power, or who were likely to be in power, were fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists.

    As you are now finding out.
    That's just nonsense and beneath you.

    The fruitcake, loonies and closet [or even quite open] racists were in the vicious Leave.EU grouping during the referendum.

    Vote Leave made sure to do as much as they can to put clear water between the Leave.EU racists etc and themselves - and quite right too.

    Tony Blair was prepared to have Jeremy Corbyn as a fellow Labour MP in his government despite knowing what he was. The Brexiteers in Vote Leave were not prepared to share a platform with Farage etc
    Oh no! You're off on one of your comic black is white really it is exercises.

    So it's a Peoples' Front of Judea thing is it? Vote Leave was chock full of racists while Leave.EU was pure as the driven snow. Or was it the other way round. Would be very interested to see the entry questionnaires for both organisations so that they could filter out the "right" type of leaver for each.
    FFS if you cant think of anything better than calling anyone you disagree with a racist just leave it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    This is unlikely to be helpful, too.

    At a critical moment, the WTO loses its leader
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/05/18/commentary/world-commentary/critical-moment-wto-loses-leader/
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I have long said that Priti Patel is unsuitable for her office and want her replaced. Gavin Williamson is also way out of his depth

    This crisis has changed everything and my immediate concern is about Boris

    He does go awol at times but it is noticeable that he is not stepping up to the plate and leading the nation

    He should be doing the daily conferences more often and just generally being more on show

    Now many will say he has always been like this, and others make far more personal attacks on him because of his brexit stance. However, I am of the opinion that covid has had a real adverse effect on his health, and in view of reports last night, he may not recover sufficiently to carry on

    He has big decisions in front of him, especially over no deal brexit, and I expect the slide in the polls both as pm and party to continue through the summer.

    There will not be a GE before 2024 and as has been said the more unpopular the government, the less likely for an early GE, especially with an 80 seat majority. I was surprised that Patel's bill sailed through last night with a majority of 99 - (351-252)

    Starmer is enjoying a honeymoon period in ideal conditions for labour post the Corbyn era and with the benefit of hindsight in HMG handling of covid

    I am disappointed with Boris and he needs to lift his game

    Whilst you were always going to vote Conservative in 2019, I have never understood why you nailed your colours so firmly to the Boris‘ mast. You have gone ‘all in’ with Boris despite his cabinet and sacking of moderates.

    All the other moderate Conservatives here didn’t do that. Committed serious moderate Conservative posters actually left the party.

    You have been a strange outlier.
    He sacked remainer mps like Grieve and others who were actively trying to undermine brexit. Your serious moderate posters were all pro EU

    I support Boris and brexit and want it concluded.

    Furthermore I want the UK to be able to make its own laws on tax and state aid without interference from Brussels or the ECJ

    However, I am not giving Boris a free pass but want him to step up to the plate
    Clarifications.

    Some of those Boris sacked voted for *Brexit more often than Boris did and some of his cabinet.

    Those around here that resigned did not resign over Brexit, but over Boris’ aggressive policy.

    *a crap faux Maybot Brexit

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706
    TGOHF666 said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    Quite the opposite - it will make a prompt deal more attractive.

    "But tariffs will remain on UK-produced cars - at 10% - and on agricultural products including lamb, beef and butter at their current levels, following concerns that these industries could be decimated by Brexit.

    These new tariffs will be applied to trade with any country with which the UK has not negotiated a trade deal by the time the transition period ends on 31 December."
    Don't understand the reference to UK-produced cars. If that is supposed to be non UK produced cars we are presumably saying that would apply to EU cars in the absence of a trade deal?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    MattW said:

    I'm interested in this idea that extended families have to live in one dwelling. They don't.

    You can look at immigrant families - thinking back to when I lived in BD7 some time ago Muslim families would live across several small terraced houses, or in one larger terraced house. In student terms these would be 4 bedders or 8 bedders respectively.

    Where I am now, I know various families who have moved en bloc to this area - one have come from Somerset way and now parents and both grown up daughters + families are within half a mile or so. Others stay local. That takes a load off services.

    Does this have more to do with the idea that the traditional family is in some way made obsolete by all the other kinds that have come along in the last decades, and a perceived need to demolish what is there to make way for the new?

    I grew up in the 70s with three generations living in a council semi-detached. It allowed both my parents to go out to work early in the morning whilst my Gran looked after us until my mother came home mid-morning. It enabled my Mum to work, my Gran to do something and keep herself occupied (and meant there were others there to look after her) and we were quite happy. One issue I suspect is taking the kids to school - I walked to school alone as did most of the kids, so there wasn't the need to have someone there by my side, I get the impression these days, that's far less common.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    Quite the opposite - it will make a prompt deal more attractive.

    "But tariffs will remain on UK-produced cars - at 10% - and on agricultural products including lamb, beef and butter at their current levels, following concerns that these industries could be decimated by Brexit.

    These new tariffs will be applied to trade with any country with which the UK has not negotiated a trade deal by the time the transition period ends on 31 December."
    Don't understand the reference to UK-produced cars. If that is supposed to be non UK produced cars we are presumably saying that would apply to EU cars in the absence of a trade deal?
    Sky News - never wrong for long ?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798

    eek said:

    eek said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Friend of Israel, a women, Indian, strong on immigration . a Brexit supporter.

    Pretty much something for everyone on the left to latch onto there - a prejudice for every day of the week to indulge.

    Strong on immigration isn't quite correct, strong on immigration from a particular location at the expense of others would be a better bet.
    Which particular location are you referring to?

    The argument that she has made, with others, which I completely respect is that prior governments have been hard on immigration from some nations (like her own background) while permitting easy free movement from Europeans.

    I don't always agree with her but one thing I 100% agree with her on is that its best to treat people as individuals based on who they are and not where they come from.
    India but more of the basis that I do not believe that stealing people from abroad because you cannot train enough of them yourself is a good idea.
    "stealing people from abroad"?

    So to be clear are you saying that you're upset that Patel is too keen on Indian migration? You want her to be harsher on migration from India? Is that your problem?
    Do you think tempting trained medical staff from ex 3rd world countries with weak welfare, education and health systems is better, worse or about the same as tempting them from countries with largely similar levels of civil support as the UK?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited May 2020
    So just the 850.000 new jobless today, and that is the tip of the iceberg. Mr Sunak is bankrupting the country hiding the truth from us.

    Its soon going to be clear that the government's 'new normal' strategy is a completely unsustainable and is in fact causing horrendous and widespread carnage.

    There is no new normal. We either go back to the way we were living and accept the risks, or face social and economic disintegration.

    That is the choice we face, it always was the choice we faced, and the fact that the pusillanimous west completely ducked that truth will haunt us for a long time.

    In the coming weeks the government will be desperately casting around for excuses to junk its disastrous policies as the implications of them begin to bite.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    How does unilaterally eliminating tariffs give us leverage? Surely a higher tariff with the promise of removing it in a trade deal does that.
    SHHHHHHHHHHH. I think the Brexiters think they have a win here. Trade under WTO so the EU can impose tariffs on our products, and then eliminate tariffs on EU imports.

    It is as perfect for them as a circular firing squad.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    Quite the opposite - it will make a prompt deal more attractive.

    "But tariffs will remain on UK-produced cars - at 10% - and on agricultural products including lamb, beef and butter at their current levels, following concerns that these industries could be decimated by Brexit.

    These new tariffs will be applied to trade with any country with which the UK has not negotiated a trade deal by the time the transition period ends on 31 December."
    Don't understand the reference to UK-produced cars. If that is supposed to be non UK produced cars we are presumably saying that would apply to EU cars in the absence of a trade deal?
    Its badly phrased, whoever wrote that but I understand what they were trying to say.

    What they're trying to say is that goods we don't produce (dishwashers etc) are going to be permitted tariff-free, but goods we produce ourselves like cars will see tariffs for that sector.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    DavidL said:

    I know that this article was touched upon yesterday but it seems to me to have great significance: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/superspreader-events-may-responsible-80-percent-coronavirus/

    What it suggests to me is that the R number, with which we are all currently obsessed, is largely irrelevant. It is an average for the number of people infected by those currently infected but it is completely misleading. If the research by the Turing Institute is correct many, perhaps most, who have the virus are barely infectious at all, only a risk to those with compromised immune systems and family members where there is prolonged exposure. In contrast, as in the SK nightclub case recently, some people can produce staggering quantities of the virus and infect hundreds of people in a relatively short time. The average between these two, the R number is not particularly meaningful.

    What the super spreader hypothesis suggests to me is that very fast testing and indeed the app are going to be critical to coming out of lockdown safely. If a super spreader is active every hour until he or she is traced will cause another wave of infection. It continues to trouble me that the speed of testing and the app are still not available.

    We also need to try and find out what makes a super spreader. If they tend to get infected early it might be a reason for the virus "burning out" as those who can spread it more rapidly diminish leaving the rest to spread the virus very slowly, if at all. If we can accelerate this process by identifying super spreaders we could have a major impact on transmission.

    Its such an odd virus, how can one person be a superspreader such as the waiter in the ski resort blowing a whistle where he infected nearly everyone who was at the party, while others do not seem to spread it at all. There are years of study ahead into how this virus operates.
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    Quite the opposite - it will make a prompt deal more attractive.

    "But tariffs will remain on UK-produced cars - at 10% - and on agricultural products including lamb, beef and butter at their current levels, following concerns that these industries could be decimated by Brexit.

    These new tariffs will be applied to trade with any country with which the UK has not negotiated a trade deal by the time the transition period ends on 31 December."
    Don't understand the reference to UK-produced cars. If that is supposed to be non UK produced cars we are presumably saying that would apply to EU cars in the absence of a trade deal?
    Its badly phrased, whoever wrote that but I understand what they were trying to say.

    What they're trying to say is that goods we don't produce (dishwashers etc) are going to be permitted tariff-free, but goods we produce ourselves like cars will see tariffs for that sector.
    You would think tariffs coming down would be popular ...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Good news! Your imported dishwasher make 3% more margin for your retailer, and the price is merely the loss of the UK farming industry. Marvellous stuff!
    UK farming voted for Brexit.
    I voted for Brexit! At no point did I seriously think that would see the UK sail off the edge of the world as we're about to. I have to assume farmers were of a similar mind - free trade without the political union. Why a country who literally ruled the world thanks to free trade wants to do a unique experiment by becoming the only country in the world to stop free trade is beyond me.
    I think you had to look at your fellow travellers which would have made it a trivial exercise to work out that it was going to be a shitshow. You and others on this site might have had a noble, sensible, and workable idea of Brexit, but 99.8% of the other Brexiters, and 99.9% of the Brexiters in power, or who were likely to be in power, were fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists.

    As you are now finding out.
    That's just nonsense and beneath you.

    The fruitcake, loonies and closet [or even quite open] racists were in the vicious Leave.EU grouping during the referendum.

    Vote Leave made sure to do as much as they can to put clear water between the Leave.EU racists etc and themselves - and quite right too.

    Tony Blair was prepared to have Jeremy Corbyn as a fellow Labour MP in his government despite knowing what he was. The Brexiteers in Vote Leave were not prepared to share a platform with Farage etc
    Oh no! You're off on one of your comic black is white really it is exercises.

    So it's a Peoples' Front of Judea thing is it? Vote Leave was chock full of racists while Leave.EU was pure as the driven snow. Or was it the other way round. Would be very interested to see the entry questionnaires for both organisations so that they could filter out the "right" type of leaver for each.
    It was quite clearly the other way around.

    Leave.EU and UKIP were the ones with bloody disgusting images like "Breaking Point" that were roundly condemned by the Vote Leave campaigners.

    There are good and bad people for almost any thinking. Does the fact that there were anti-Semites who voted for Tony Blair's Labour Party make Tony Blair's government and anyone who voted for it anti-Semitic? No, that's preposterous.
    A central strand of Tony Blair's Labour Party was not to discourage Jews from coming to the UK.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,279
    HYUFD said:

    Boris still the preferred pick with Tory voters and Leavers though on 89% and 76% favourable, to 78% and 68% for Rishi Sunak

    Having favourable ratings from Labour, LD and Remain voters is of little use unless they would vote for you over Starmer, even more so when we are likely to be on WTO terms Brexit in a year

    The poll also shows Labour voters and Remainers give Starmer a higher favourable rating than Sunak, though LD voters give Sunak a higher rating than Starmer
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Sunak and Patel's ratings make sense. Johnson's enduring popularity is just a mystery to me - I assume it's some kind of weird English class thing.

    Not sure about class, but it’s definitely weird and it’s definitely an English thing.
    Yes, a lot of forelock tugging still present south of the border.
    How so? People say this but I cannot say I've ever really noticed much respect or deference toward upper class people. I dont rule out the possibility but it feels like one of those certainties that people rarely bother to test or prove.
    I don't think it's deference towards poshos so much as being charmed by them; Bertie Woosterism is much more insidious than any allegiance to Debretts.

    Of course the inclination of some to turn into slobbering imbeciles in the presence of royalty is something different again.
    Hugh Grant probably has a lot to do with it. The Queen is different: she corresponds to some Jungian archetype in the brain of true Englishmen, all of whom dream about having her to tea. It's not about poshness, though: true Englishmen do not have similar but slightly less exciting dreams about Chas n Mills, or any of the Dukes.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    How does unilaterally eliminating tariffs give us leverage? Surely a higher tariff with the promise of removing it in a trade deal does that.
    There will be tariffs on products we produce like cars if they wish to export them to us.

    Unilaterally eliminating tariffs on stuff we don't even produce ourselves marginally (and it is marginal) gives us leverage in that we don't need to have a trade deal in order to import those tariff-free. There was a threat that products we don't produce would go up in price because tariffs that didn't exist previously (due to Single Market) would go up in price if we had to add tariffs to them. We're saying we don't have to add tariffs to them.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Got my Contract Law “eExam” in 15 minutes. Wish me luck!

    Ginger beer bottle. Snail. That's all there is to it.

    Good luck.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    edited May 2020
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    Quite the opposite - it will make a prompt deal more attractive.

    "But tariffs will remain on UK-produced cars - at 10% - and on agricultural products including lamb, beef and butter at their current levels, following concerns that these industries could be decimated by Brexit.

    These new tariffs will be applied to trade with any country with which the UK has not negotiated a trade deal by the time the transition period ends on 31 December."
    Don't understand the reference to UK-produced cars. If that is supposed to be non UK produced cars we are presumably saying that would apply to EU cars in the absence of a trade deal?
    Surely it should be NON-UK produced cars? Otherwise it makes no sense. The rest of the statement suggests a protective tariff situation for British farmers, support for whom makes sense.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753

    Got my Contract Law “eExam” in 15 minutes. Wish me luck!

    Good luck!!!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,898
    edited May 2020

    So just the 850.000 new jobless today, and that is the tip of the iceberg. Mr Sunak is bankrupting the country hiding the truth from us.

    Its soon going to be clear that the government's 'new normal' strategy is a completely unsustainable and is in fact causing horrendous and widespread carnage.

    There is no new normal. We either go back to the way we were living and accept the risks, or face social and economic disintegration.

    That is the choice we face, it always was the choice we faced, and the fact that the pusillanimous west completely ducked that truth will haunt us for a long time.

    In the coming weeks the government will be desperately casting around for excuses to junk its disastrous policies as the implications of them begin to bite.

    No, we're definitely into a new normal whether you or the government likes it or not. WFH is going to be much more prevalent than it was, people are going to go out to restaurants as a global population less than before even without restrictions on their liberty.

    The extent to which our behaviour is modified prior to a vaccine will determine the new baseline r(0) for the virus. Let's call this r(0_new)

    Since r(0) x S = 1

    That will determine the new endemic steady state of the virus, even if the virus was the same virulence as the common cold with a similar baseline r(0) the endemic steady state susceptible population (S) will be lower due to behavioral changes.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    There will be tariffs on products we produce like cars

    We don't produce cars here.

    We assemble cars from parts produced elsewhere
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    Quite the opposite - it will make a prompt deal more attractive.

    "But tariffs will remain on UK-produced cars - at 10% - and on agricultural products including lamb, beef and butter at their current levels, following concerns that these industries could be decimated by Brexit.

    These new tariffs will be applied to trade with any country with which the UK has not negotiated a trade deal by the time the transition period ends on 31 December."
    Don't understand the reference to UK-produced cars. If that is supposed to be non UK produced cars we are presumably saying that would apply to EU cars in the absence of a trade deal?
    Its badly phrased, whoever wrote that but I understand what they were trying to say.

    What they're trying to say is that goods we don't produce (dishwashers etc) are going to be permitted tariff-free, but goods we produce ourselves like cars will see tariffs for that sector.
    So we are discouraging the manufacture of dishwashers in this country. Why? We urgently need import substitution to reduce our trade deficit.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    IshmaelZ said:

    Got my Contract Law “eExam” in 15 minutes. Wish me luck!

    Ginger beer bottle. Snail. That's all there is to it.

    Good luck.
    Pretty sure that’s Tort Law!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    edited May 2020
    Good luck, Mr. Gate.

    I shall sacrifice a goat to Athena on your behalf.

    Edited extra bit: and Zeus, as the keeper of oaths (I think).
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    Quite the opposite - it will make a prompt deal more attractive.

    "But tariffs will remain on UK-produced cars - at 10% - and on agricultural products including lamb, beef and butter at their current levels, following concerns that these industries could be decimated by Brexit.

    These new tariffs will be applied to trade with any country with which the UK has not negotiated a trade deal by the time the transition period ends on 31 December."
    Don't understand the reference to UK-produced cars. If that is supposed to be non UK produced cars we are presumably saying that would apply to EU cars in the absence of a trade deal?
    Its badly phrased, whoever wrote that but I understand what they were trying to say.

    What they're trying to say is that goods we don't produce (dishwashers etc) are going to be permitted tariff-free, but goods we produce ourselves like cars will see tariffs for that sector.
    So we are discouraging the manufacture of dishwashers in this country. Why? We urgently need import substitution to reduce our trade deficit.
    Ive been saying that for years
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Scott_xP said:

    There will be tariffs on products we produce like cars

    We don't produce cars here.

    We assemble cars from parts produced elsewhere
    Wait until Scott finds out where the components for German cars are "produced".

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    Got my Contract Law “eExam” in 15 minutes. Wish me luck!

    Best of. Go for it!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,706

    DavidL said:

    I know that this article was touched upon yesterday but it seems to me to have great significance: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/superspreader-events-may-responsible-80-percent-coronavirus/

    What it suggests to me is that the R number, with which we are all currently obsessed, is largely irrelevant. It is an average for the number of people infected by those currently infected but it is completely misleading. If the research by the Turing Institute is correct many, perhaps most, who have the virus are barely infectious at all, only a risk to those with compromised immune systems and family members where there is prolonged exposure. In contrast, as in the SK nightclub case recently, some people can produce staggering quantities of the virus and infect hundreds of people in a relatively short time. The average between these two, the R number is not particularly meaningful.

    What the super spreader hypothesis suggests to me is that very fast testing and indeed the app are going to be critical to coming out of lockdown safely. If a super spreader is active every hour until he or she is traced will cause another wave of infection. It continues to trouble me that the speed of testing and the app are still not available.

    We also need to try and find out what makes a super spreader. If they tend to get infected early it might be a reason for the virus "burning out" as those who can spread it more rapidly diminish leaving the rest to spread the virus very slowly, if at all. If we can accelerate this process by identifying super spreaders we could have a major impact on transmission.


    Its such an odd virus, how can one person be a superspreader such as the waiter in the ski resort blowing a whistle where he infected nearly everyone who was at the party, while others do not seem to spread it at all. There are years of study ahead into how this virus operates.
    I agree that it is weird but it would be very odd if it was in any way unique. Research into CV will hopefully give us a much greater insight into how many other viruses actually work.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947
    edited May 2020

    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Friend of Israel, a women, Indian, strong on immigration . a Brexit supporter.

    Pretty much something for everyone on the left to latch onto there - a prejudice for every day of the week to indulge.

    Yes, it's a pity her palpable intellectual inadequacy for high office gives cover for those whose main beef with her is that she's an Indian female authoritarian pro-Israel hard leaver.
    What intellectual inadequacy?

    She strikes me as quite bright and she had a successful career outside of Parliament before joining it. Not being someone you like doesn't make them intellectually inadequate - I don't like Starmer or his politics but I wouldn't call him an idiot.
    I agree she is quite bright but unfortunately she is poor at her job and shows no compassion. She is not an asset to the party in this covid environment
    She is quite bright using the general public as a reference. Could hold her own in most settings, no problem. But by the standards of cabinet ministers, especially holders of the one of the great offices of state, she is extremely poorly equipped up top.

    Still, not her fault and not something to blame her for. She was offered the position of Home Secretary by Boris Johnson and one would hardly expect her to say, "No thanks. I'm not clever enough."
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Got my Contract Law “eExam” in 15 minutes. Wish me luck!

    Ginger beer bottle. Snail. That's all there is to it.

    Good luck.
    Pretty sure that’s Tort Law!
    Oh fck that' right, isn't it?

    Scrub that and try "Lovely little runner, I'd stake my life on it."
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    Scott_xP said:

    There will be tariffs on products we produce like cars

    We don't produce cars here.

    We assemble cars from parts produced elsewhere
    On that basis nobody produces cars.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    Quite the opposite - it will make a prompt deal more attractive.

    "But tariffs will remain on UK-produced cars - at 10% - and on agricultural products including lamb, beef and butter at their current levels, following concerns that these industries could be decimated by Brexit.

    These new tariffs will be applied to trade with any country with which the UK has not negotiated a trade deal by the time the transition period ends on 31 December."
    Don't understand the reference to UK-produced cars. If that is supposed to be non UK produced cars we are presumably saying that would apply to EU cars in the absence of a trade deal?
    Its badly phrased, whoever wrote that but I understand what they were trying to say.

    What they're trying to say is that goods we don't produce (dishwashers etc) are going to be permitted tariff-free, but goods we produce ourselves like cars will see tariffs for that sector.
    So we are discouraging the manufacture of dishwashers in this country. Why? We urgently need import substitution to reduce our trade deficit.
    Why? Because (AFAIK) we have zero manufacturing in that sector as it stands - besides we were already previously importing them tariff free and now will continue to do so however negotiations go.

    We are encouraging manufacturing where we have it (eg cars).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,898
    Incidence of cold and flu should drop too with people's modified behaviour.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    IshmaelZ said:

    Got my Contract Law “eExam” in 15 minutes. Wish me luck!

    Ginger beer bottle. Snail. That's all there is to it.

    Good luck.
    Yes; I'd forgotten that one!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Friend of Israel, a women, Indian, strong on immigration . a Brexit supporter.

    Pretty much something for everyone on the left to latch onto there - a prejudice for every day of the week to indulge.

    Yes, it's a pity her palpable intellectual inadequacy for high office gives cover for those whose main beef with her is that she's an Indian female authoritarian pro-Israel hard leaver.
    What intellectual inadequacy?

    She strikes me as quite bright and she had a successful career outside of Parliament before joining it. Not being someone you like doesn't make them intellectually inadequate - I don't like Starmer or his politics but I wouldn't call him an idiot.
    I agree she is quite bright but unfortunately she is poor at her job and shows no compassion. She is not an asset to the party in this covid environment
    She is quite bright using the general public as a reference. Could hold her own in most settings, no problem. But by the standards of cabinet ministers, especially of holders of the one of the great offices of state, she is extremely poorly equipped up top.

    Still, not her fault and not something to blame her for. She was offered the position of Home Secretary by Boris Johnson and one would hardly expect her to say, "No thanks. I'm not clever enough."
    She's better than many predecessors in that post.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Pondering masks today. Obviously all the Asian countries are wearing masks and judging by the pictures of European countries that are easing lockdown the majority of Europeans appear to be. Why do we seem so averse in this country?

    A couple of days ago Casino Royale commented that nobody "normal" would wear a mask. It struck me as odd at the time but as an ardent leaver I have to concede that CR may have his finger more on the pulse of Brexit Britain than I do.

    It seems to me that there isn't much to lose by wearing masks when indoors in public but there might be much to gain but the Brits seem resistant nevertheless. I suspect our infection rates are going to stay and remain higher than the rest of Europe.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    I know that this article was touched upon yesterday but it seems to me to have great significance: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/superspreader-events-may-responsible-80-percent-coronavirus/

    What it suggests to me is that the R number, with which we are all currently obsessed, is largely irrelevant. It is an average for the number of people infected by those currently infected but it is completely misleading. If the research by the Turing Institute is correct many, perhaps most, who have the virus are barely infectious at all, only a risk to those with compromised immune systems and family members where there is prolonged exposure. In contrast, as in the SK nightclub case recently, some people can produce staggering quantities of the virus and infect hundreds of people in a relatively short time. The average between these two, the R number is not particularly meaningful.

    What the super spreader hypothesis suggests to me is that very fast testing and indeed the app are going to be critical to coming out of lockdown safely. If a super spreader is active every hour until he or she is traced will cause another wave of infection. It continues to trouble me that the speed of testing and the app are still not available.

    We also need to try and find out what makes a super spreader. If they tend to get infected early it might be a reason for the virus "burning out" as those who can spread it more rapidly diminish leaving the rest to spread the virus very slowly, if at all. If we can accelerate this process by identifying super spreaders we could have a major impact on transmission.

    You are conflating 'superspreader events' with 'superspreader'.
    Popped in to say this. Is it the person or is it the situation?

    But it relates to R being estimated to increase across the whole population while so few people have been shown to actually have the disease.

    The action that follows is similar- identify the thing responsible for most transmission and work out how to remove it as an issue.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    On that basis nobody produces cars.

    And they ship the components freely between plants anywhere in Europe.

    So could we. Until now.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited May 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    I wonder what the approval rate will be when the true unemployment details hit and the queue of people waiting for routine operations on our beloved NHS can be seen from space.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    Quite the opposite - it will make a prompt deal more attractive.

    "But tariffs will remain on UK-produced cars - at 10% - and on agricultural products including lamb, beef and butter at their current levels, following concerns that these industries could be decimated by Brexit.

    These new tariffs will be applied to trade with any country with which the UK has not negotiated a trade deal by the time the transition period ends on 31 December."
    Don't understand the reference to UK-produced cars. If that is supposed to be non UK produced cars we are presumably saying that would apply to EU cars in the absence of a trade deal?
    Its badly phrased, whoever wrote that but I understand what they were trying to say.

    What they're trying to say is that goods we don't produce (dishwashers etc) are going to be permitted tariff-free, but goods we produce ourselves like cars will see tariffs for that sector.
    So we are discouraging the manufacture of dishwashers in this country. Why? We urgently need import substitution to reduce our trade deficit.
    Ive been saying that for years
    Yes, because import substitution worked so well for the Soviet Union and North Korea ...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,947

    Got my Contract Law “eExam” in 15 minutes. Wish me luck!

    Break a pen! :smile:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    Zero tariffs will apply on:

    Dishwashers (down from 2.7%)
    Freezers (down from 2.5%)
    Sanitary products and tampons (down from 6.3%)
    Paints (down from 6.5%) and screwdrivers (down from 2.7%)
    Mirrors (down from 4%)
    Scissors and garden shears (down from 4.7%)
    Padlocks (down from 2.7%)
    Cooking products such as baking powder (down from 6.1%), yeast (down from 12%), bay leaves (down from 7%), ground thyme (down from 8.5%) and cocoa powder (down from 8%)
    Christmas trees (down from 2.5%)


    Most of these are easily within the range of currency fluctuation, and of course apply to the delivered cost, not the retail price - so anyone who think's they're going to get fiver off their £200 dishwasher is in for a disappointment. I wish people would stop fetishising "trade deals" and focus more on educating a work force "to make the stuff the world actually wants".
    This seems an odd step. As you say these tariffs are not particularly an inhibition to trade but they will certainly be an inhibition to a free trade agreement with the EU. They cannot have a situation where goods that should bear such tariffs can be imported tariff free to the UK and then have free access to the EU. It therefore seems to be a ploy to make a FTA with the EU more difficult at a time when the negotiations are already struggling. Unhelpful.
    Quite the opposite - it will make a prompt deal more attractive.

    "But tariffs will remain on UK-produced cars - at 10% - and on agricultural products including lamb, beef and butter at their current levels, following concerns that these industries could be decimated by Brexit.

    These new tariffs will be applied to trade with any country with which the UK has not negotiated a trade deal by the time the transition period ends on 31 December."
    Don't understand the reference to UK-produced cars. If that is supposed to be non UK produced cars we are presumably saying that would apply to EU cars in the absence of a trade deal?
    I think "Boom !" is an indication the comment was not meant to be understood in any logical sense.
This discussion has been closed.