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  • MaxPB said:

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    A lot of my friends who aren't married moved in with their partners if they weren't already living together before the lockdown was officially in place or after 14 days had passed. Some even went back home to their parents but are now seriously regretting it!
    You have no idea what it's like for so many who are cut off.
    Yes the lockdown sucks and sucks more for some people than others.

    The alternative is exponential growth of the virus and letting hundreds of thousands die.

    So pick your poison. Which would you prefer?
    You could show a bit of compassion and empathy. Frankly you sound like a bit of dick, to be honest with you.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The fewer white collar workers on public transport the better. It really is quite simple.
    The white collar workers can work far more from home. Many businesses will have a mix of white and blue collar, less white collar workers at the workplace keeps the blue collar workers safer.
    That was a fun "huge debate".
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,437
    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    This is the elephant in the room: the government clearly want folk back at work, except for in certain areas e.g. pubs, restaurants, retail etc. But what isn`t clear is how fast the furlough payments stop when they do. It sounded to me like "should" go back to work still implies choice. If it is a choice between 1) going back to work and losing furlough to be replaced by wages again, or 2) staying at home and continuing draw 80% from the government, then why go back to work?

    I would assume because furlough is the choice of the company not the individual workers. So if a company decides that some of its staff can return then they would no longer have the choice of furlough. Ity is exactly how things were done when furlough started with many companies sending a percentage of their workforce home but keeping the rest working.
    Yes - you`ve made my point for me. So ABC Ltd start operating again, employee X goes back to work, back to normal. Employee Y says "no, I`m not going back to work". So (presumably, and in my view regretably) Y continues to receive his 80/100% for staying at home off the back of his employer`s application for payment.

    So people choose Y.
    Er, no. Employee Y faces disciplinary action for not turning up to work. Employees have never been the decision-makers on whether to be on furlough or not.
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    edited May 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    The big problem here - the comfortable work from home middle classes telling the least well off to go out and ‘take one for the team’.

    This for a virus which, just this week, has been calculated to affect those with degrees of deprivation.

    This is pretty incendiary stuff and exactly what I was warning against here yesterday. No attempt to suggest that the poorest, the public facing workers, those with conditions but who are not ‘at very high risk’ need greater protection, both heathwise and economically.

    Strikes have happened for far, far less than this. The unions are probably thinking ‘if not now, when’.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2020

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    I'm not. It sucks. Life sucks sometimes. Some people get cancer and others don't. Some people live by themselves and others don't. Some people have lost their jobs and others haven't. Some people have died and others haven't.

    But what's your solution? Either we have a lockdown, which sucks in one way. Or we don't and hundreds of thousands die and millions get sick which sucks in another way. What's your preference.

    If there was a nice easy solution that didn't suck we'd be going for that. The only available solutions are all shit to one extent or another.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Jonathan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The fewer white collar workers on public transport the better. It really is quite simple.
    The white collar workers can work far more from home. Many businesses
    will have a mix of white and blue collar, less white collar workers at the
    workplace keeps the blue collar workers safer.
    So the cleaners, receptionists and facilities teams should come into work tomorrow, the office workers should stay put.
    The office is still close so no, no and no.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    A lot of my friends who aren't married moved in with their partners if they weren't already living together before the lockdown was officially in place or after 14 days had passed. Some even went back home to their parents but are now seriously regretting it!
    You have no idea what it's like for so many who are cut off.
    I know I'd hate it and you have my sympathies. Unfortunately it's going to be July at the earliest before friends and family are part of the equation. That's assuming people aren't complete dickheads and start partying on beaches and raise the R above 1.
    Understood, thanks for offering your kind words and compassion.

    I've accepted the situation and only exercise is keeping me going. I'd like to go back to the office but I think that we will be WFH for the rest of the year.

    All the best to you.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,676
    Scott_xP said:
    We've given the French an exemption from being forced to quarantine?

    Did we lose a war or something?
  • Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    I'm not. It sucks. Life sucks sometimes. Some people get cancer and others don't. Some people live by themselves and others don't. Some people have lost their jobs and others haven't. Some people have died and others haven't.

    But what's your solution? Either we have a lockdown, which sucks in one way. Or we don't and hundreds of thousands die and millions get sick which sucks in another way. What's your preference.

    If there was a nice easy solution that didn't suck we'd be going for that. The only available solutions are all shit to one extent or another.
    You could start with "I'm sorry I'm luckier than some people and that I have no idea what it's like for others" but instead you come in with this matter of fact approach which even if it's right, doesn't help anyone who is feeling vulnerable right now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Jonathan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The fewer white collar workers on public transport the better. It really is quite simple.
    The white collar workers can work far more from home. Many businesses
    will have a mix of white and blue collar, less white collar workers at the
    workplace keeps the blue collar workers safer.
    So the cleaners, receptionists and facilities teams should come into work tomorrow, the office workers should stay put.
    What's a "facilities team". Never come across that in any office I've worked in :D ?

    Cleaners can be reduced with less staff I think ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:

    Apparently recommendation on masks coming this week.

    Not recommendation, "advice".
    I haven’t seen the paper, as it hasn’t yet been published, but interesting.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would-plummet-new-study-says/amp
    ... This comes despite Japan having no lockdown, still-active subways, and many businesses that have remained open—reportedly including karaoke bars, although Japanese citizens and industries are practicing social distancing where they can. Nor have the Japanese broadly embraced contact tracing, a practice by which health authorities identify someone who has been infected and then attempt to identify everyone that person might have interacted with—and potentially infected. So how does Japan do it?

    “One reason is that nearly everyone there is wearing a mask,” said De Kai, an American computer scientist with joint appointments at UC Berkeley’s International Computer Science Institute and at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology. He is also the chief architect of an in-depth study, set to be released in the coming days, that suggests that every one of us should be wearing a mask—whether surgical or homemade, scarf or bandana—like they do in Japan and other countries, mostly in East Asia. This formula applies to President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence (occasional mask refuseniks) as well as every other official who routinely interacts with people in public settings. Among the findings of their research paper, which the team plans to submit to a major journal: If 80% of a closed population were to don a mask, COVID-19 infection rates would statistically drop to approximately one twelfth the number of infections—compared to a live-virus population in which no one wore masks....


    I know the government have been vague on this (clearly not wanting repeat of bog roll stockpiling), but shocked to see how few people wear one here
    in the UK. It seems one of the easiest things you can do and there is not really any downside.
    I think it's very plausible that the major route of transmission could be large droplets when people talk face-to-face, and masks could have a dramatic effect on that.
    Personally, it just seems a no-brainer. I have a respirator mask and goggles. If we do find out that isn't a major source of transmission, well all i have lost is looking like a bit of a tool.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    ukpaul said:

    ydoethur said:

    ukpaul said:

    ydoethur said:

    ukpaul said:

    ydoethur said:

    ukpaul said:

    Any particular reason why school teachers can't work through July and August this year?

    Yes. We will have taught our contracted amount of days for the current school year, I suppose they could offer extra pay pro rata but that will cost heavily.
    That won’t necessarily be true in the state sector depending on how they approached opening for key workers although I can see it might be a problem in the private sector.

    I think in your case the really bad news is this 14 day quarantine. That immediately epically buggers any private school that relies on overseas students.

    My concern about working would be that given how brutal the autumn term is anyway it would require a three week holiday at the end of September.
    We’re told that there is still a high level of interest from overseas but the reality I fear will be much different. One of ours who returned hime took nearly a month to get out of two separate quarantines! They haven’t messed about in Asia like we’ve done.

    The phrase was ‘some time with their teachers’, which most schools will take as being very limited, probably with a skeleton staff for a day or two.

    So September it is.
    If I were an international student, I wouldn’t be looking to travel overseas for an education right now. It might be two years before that changes. That’s longer than most boarding schools will survive without them.
    Pretty much all non teaching staff are furloughed and I expect that they will continue that through the summer. I wonder if the % is decreased if they will furlough teaching staff as well to make more savings. It makes sense when you think about it,

    So we have no catering, no real premises staff, no cleaning, nothing much in the way of matronic staff. For a few days here and there I don’t think they are going to unfurlough them, so there is no real school to go to. Now I’m thinking through it, the sheer mucked uppery of this becomes clearer, it’s as though he had to say something different but didn’t have anything useful to add (is this what they call virtue signalling, making a show of something without actually backing it up? It’s not a term I’ve ‘got’ before but, if so, this seems to be it!)
    You can’t furlough people who are on holiday. It’s a loophole in the system that is also going to cause private schools massive headaches over the summer holiday when most of them are on the edge financially anyway.
    So not teaching staff but office staff, finance, some catering and all of the premises staff would normally be working, so they can be furloughed can’t they?
    Yes, as long as they do not take leave at the time.

    It shouldn’t be a problem. However, I’m also guessing they represent 30% of the wage bill?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    Just ignore.

    Don't forget when someone of your political persuasion enters PB you are like an Evertonian who enters a pub full of Liverpool fans
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127

    Scott_xP said:
    We've given the French an exemption from being forced to quarantine?

    Did we lose a war or something?
    Presumably the quid pro quo is that we retake control of Calais?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    A lot of my friends who aren't married moved in with their partners if they weren't already living together before the lockdown was officially in place or after 14 days had passed. Some even went back home to their parents but are now seriously regretting it!
    You have no idea what it's like for so many who are cut off.
    I know I'd hate it and you have my sympathies. Unfortunately it's going to be July at the earliest before friends and family are part of the equation. That's assuming people aren't complete dickheads and start partying on beaches and raise the R above 1.
    Understood, thanks for offering your kind words and compassion.

    I've accepted the situation and only exercise is keeping me going. I'd like to go back to the office but I think that we will be WFH for the rest of the year.

    All the best to you.
    I really hope that we get antibody tests and a vaccine ASAP to end this misery.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The fewer white collar workers on public transport the better. It really is quite simple.
    The white collar workers can work far more from home. Many businesses
    will have a mix of white and blue collar, less white collar workers at the
    workplace keeps the blue collar workers safer.
    So the cleaners, receptionists and facilities teams should come into work tomorrow, the office workers should stay put.


    The office is still close so no, no and no.

    But he said everyone who can’t work from home must go to work.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    At least we're not as bad as the USA, part of a continuing series.

    https://twitter.com/PeterNimmo1/status/1259566474659856386?s=20
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    Scott_xP said:
    We've given the French an exemption from being forced to quarantine?

    Did we lose a war or something?
    I would like to see the detail on that.

    Is this a bilateral agreement just between UK and France ignoring the rest of the EU
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The fewer white collar workers on public transport the better. It really is quite simple.
    The white collar workers can work far more from home. Many businesses
    will have a mix of white and blue collar, less white collar workers at the
    workplace keeps the blue collar workers safer.
    So the cleaners, receptionists and facilities teams should come into work tomorrow, the office workers should stay put.


    The office is still close so no, no and no.

    But he said everyone who can’t work from home must go to work.
    In that situation there isn't a job to go to work for.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    I'm not. It sucks. Life sucks sometimes. Some people get cancer and others don't. Some people live by themselves and others don't. Some people have lost their jobs and others haven't. Some people have died and others haven't.

    But what's your solution? Either we have a lockdown, which sucks in one way. Or we don't and hundreds of thousands die and millions get sick which sucks in another way. What's your preference.

    If there was a nice easy solution that didn't suck we'd be going for that. The only available solutions are all shit to one extent or another.
    You could start with "I'm sorry I'm luckier than some people and that I have no idea what it's like for others" but instead you come in with this matter of fact approach which even if it's right, doesn't help anyone who is feeling vulnerable right now.
    Sorry I thought we were discussing this politically and not as a counsellor for someone's troubles.

    I said it was shit but you objected to that.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,206
    edited May 2020
    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    This is the elephant in the room: the government clearly want folk back at work, except for in certain areas e.g. pubs, restaurants, retail etc. But what isn`t clear is how fast the furlough payments stop when they do. It sounded to me like "should" go back to work still implies choice. If it is a choice between 1) going back to work and losing furlough to be replaced by wages again, or 2) staying at home and continuing draw 80% from the government, then why go back to work?

    I would assume because furlough is the choice of the company not the individual workers. So if a company decides that some of its staff can return then they would no longer have the choice of furlough. Ity is exactly how things were done when furlough started with many companies sending a percentage of their workforce home but keeping the rest working.
    Yes - you`ve made my point for me. So ABC Ltd start operating again, employee X goes back to work, back to normal. Employee Y says "no, I`m not going back to work". So (presumably, and in my view regretably) Y continues to receive his 80/100% for staying at home off the back of his employer`s application for payment.

    So people choose Y.
    No. If the employer calls people in, and they won't come, then they get £0. If they are vulnerable and should be shielding, or if they are self isolating then they should get SSP, but that's not nearly as generous.

    Now some employers may be pragmatic - we've got a guy with reduced lung function, we'll keep him furloughed as long as possible over some of the other guys, but ultimately it's a decision entirely for the employer how they approach this sort of thing.

    Certainly employees can't just decide they like having their feet up for 80% money, that's not their call.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    MaxPB said:

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    A lot of my friends who aren't married moved in with their partners if they weren't already living together before the lockdown was officially in place or after 14 days had passed. Some even went back home to their parents but are now seriously regretting it!
    You have no idea what it's like for so many who are cut off.
    Yes the lockdown sucks and sucks more for some people than others.

    The alternative is exponential growth of the virus and letting hundreds of thousands die.

    So pick your poison. Which would you prefer?
    That is a particularly heatless post. Grow up!
  • Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    Just ignore.

    Don't forget when someone of your political persuasion enters PB you are like an Evertonian who enters a pub full of Liverpool fans
    Is this a criticism of me? I'm sorry I have different views to many here, I believe I've always been respectful in how I debate.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    A lot of my friends who aren't married moved in with their partners if they weren't already living together before the lockdown was officially in place or after 14 days had passed. Some even went back home to their parents but are now seriously regretting it!
    You have no idea what it's like for so many who are cut off.
    I know I'd hate it and you have my sympathies. Unfortunately it's going to be July at the earliest before friends and family are part of the equation. That's assuming people aren't complete dickheads and start partying on beaches and raise the R above 1.
    Understood, thanks for offering your kind words and compassion.

    I've accepted the situation and only exercise is keeping me going. I'd like to go back to the office but I think that we will be WFH for the rest of the year.

    All the best to you.
    I really hope that we get antibody tests and a vaccine ASAP to end this misery.
    As long as Roche aren't billy bullshitting (and see no real why they would), the antibody test should be widely available by the end of this month.
  • Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    I'm not. It sucks. Life sucks sometimes. Some people get cancer and others don't. Some people live by themselves and others don't. Some people have lost their jobs and others haven't. Some people have died and others haven't.

    But what's your solution? Either we have a lockdown, which sucks in one way. Or we don't and hundreds of thousands die and millions get sick which sucks in another way. What's your preference.

    If there was a nice easy solution that didn't suck we'd be going for that. The only available solutions are all shit to one extent or another.
    You could start with "I'm sorry I'm luckier than some people and that I have no idea what it's like for others" but instead you come in with this matter of fact approach which even if it's right, doesn't help anyone who is feeling vulnerable right now.
    Sorry I thought we were discussing this politically and not as a counsellor for someone's troubles.

    I said it was shit but you objected to that.
    I hope you have a lovely evening and all the best to you and your family. Stay safe.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Okay I think I've got the logic fail.

    You can play sport, but only with members of your own household. But you could do that anyway surely. So does he mean you can play sport with people who are not in your own household? Likewise park benches?

    If so, then the lockdown is over.

    I think the point is the old rule was supposed you were doing some short directed exercise e.g. run, bike. What they are saying now is if you want to go the park, hang out, kick a ball about, thats ok.

    And they are now saying things like golf, tennis, fishing are ok. They werent before.

    It is all about nudging.
    With people inside or outside your household?

    Looking forward to seeing the SI.
    Fishing is exercise?
    It is if you're tramping 7 miles to a Sutherland hill loch. Which of course one can't do in any case.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Pulpstar said:

    This is the new fifth test, as the Prime Minister put it today:

    “And last, we must make sure that any measures we take do not force the reproduction rate of the disease - the R - back up over one, so that we have the kind of exponential growth we were facing a few weeks ago.“

    It's a good 5th test actually.
    I agree with you and @AlastairMeeks - its an important point, and a good one.

    Whatever we do, we have to avoid exponentially.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    A lot of my friends who aren't married moved in with their partners if they weren't already living together before the lockdown was officially in place or after 14 days had passed. Some even went back home to their parents but are now seriously regretting it!
    You have no idea what it's like for so many who are cut off.
    I know I'd hate it and you have my sympathies. Unfortunately it's going to be July at the earliest before friends and family are part of the equation. That's assuming people aren't complete dickheads and start partying on beaches and raise the R above 1.
    Understood, thanks for offering your kind words and compassion.

    I've accepted the situation and only exercise is keeping me going. I'd like to go back to the office but I think that we will be WFH for the rest of the year.

    All the best to you.
    I really hope that we get antibody tests and a vaccine ASAP to end this misery.
    Me too. I understand the greater good and all that but I won't lie and say I'm finding it difficult.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    A lot of my friends who aren't married moved in with their partners if they weren't already living together before the lockdown was officially in place or after 14 days had passed. Some even went back home to their parents but are now seriously regretting it!
    You have no idea what it's like for so many who are cut off.
    I know I'd hate it and you have my sympathies. Unfortunately it's going to be July at the earliest before friends and family are part of the equation. That's assuming people aren't complete dickheads and start partying on beaches and raise the R above 1.
    Understood, thanks for offering your kind words and compassion.

    I've accepted the situation and only exercise is keeping me going. I'd like to go back to the office but I think that we will be WFH for the rest of the year.

    All the best to you.
    With 44% now working at least some of the time from home (12% before covid) WFH will become a big part of the economy and with it a considerable reduction in public transport
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    Just ignore.

    Don't forget when someone of your political persuasion enters PB you are like an Evertonian who enters a pub full of Liverpool fans
    Is this a criticism of me? I'm sorry I have different views to many here, I believe I've always been respectful in how I debate.
    Not directly. I am in the same boat, so it also applies to me.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    "The crossover between people who became overnight experts in epidemiology but who can't understand what 'stay alert' means is quite impressive."

    (Epidemiologist on twitter)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,437
    Trying to cut out the flim-flam from the PM's statement and it seems to me that the strategy is to keep R below 1 and aim for local eradication of the virus, while returning as much of the economy as possible to action and loosening those restrictions that have little effect on R. I am largely in agreement on the strategy.

    I have serious doubts on the government's competence to pull this off, and I fear that a failure on contact tracing is going to give us a second peak. It also means that the government is asking people to sacrifice social contact for longer in return for being able to reactivate the economy earlier.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,003
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1259567481599021059

    As it happens I was talking to a builder today who said the brickies would be back at work tomorrow whatever.

    White collar folk on lockdown want to do it in their new homes, not their old ones...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    I'm not. It sucks. Life sucks sometimes. Some people get cancer and others don't. Some people live by themselves and others don't. Some people have lost their jobs and others haven't. Some people have died and others haven't.

    But what's your solution? Either we have a lockdown, which sucks in one way. Or we don't and hundreds of thousands die and millions get sick which sucks in another way. What's your preference.

    If there was a nice easy solution that didn't suck we'd be going for that. The only available solutions are all shit to one extent or another.
    You could start with "I'm sorry I'm luckier than some people and that I have no idea what it's like for others" but instead you come in with this matter of fact approach which even if it's right, doesn't help anyone who is feeling vulnerable right now.
    Sorry I thought we were discussing this politically and not as a counsellor for someone's troubles.

    I said it was shit but you objected to that.
    I hope you have a lovely evening and all the best to you and your family. Stay safe.
    You too I hope you have a lovely time too and all the best for yourself.
  • Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    Just ignore.

    Don't forget when someone of your political persuasion enters PB you are like an Evertonian who enters a pub full of Liverpool fans
    Is this a criticism of me? I'm sorry I have different views to many here, I believe I've always been respectful in how I debate.
    Not directly. I am in the same boat, so it also applies to me.
    Thought you disagreed with quite a lot of what I post - but you seem fairly balanced in my view.

    I have no problem with opposing views, as long as people are respectful.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    I'm not. It sucks. Life sucks sometimes. Some people get cancer and others don't. Some people live by themselves and others don't. Some people have lost their jobs and others haven't. Some people have died and others haven't.

    But what's your solution? Either we have a lockdown, which sucks in one way. Or we don't and hundreds of thousands die and millions get sick which sucks in another way. What's your preference.

    If there was a nice easy solution that didn't suck we'd be going for that. The only available solutions are all shit to one extent or another.
    You could start with "I'm sorry I'm luckier than some people and that I have no idea what it's like for others" but instead you come in with this matter of fact approach which even if it's right, doesn't help anyone who is feeling vulnerable right now.
    Sorry I thought we were discussing this politically and not as a counsellor for someone's troubles.

    I said it was shit but you objected to that.
    Another heartless post. As before, grow up.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    "The crossover between people who became overnight experts in epidemiology but who can't understand what 'stay alert' means is quite impressive."

    (Epidemiologist on twitter)

    Are the same people who also became expert oil traders for a day?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,003
    https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1259546900375711745

    This seems to be the union argument. Not without merit
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Jonathan said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The fewer white collar workers on public transport the better. It really is quite simple.
    The white collar workers can work far more from home. Many businesses
    will have a mix of white and blue collar, less white collar workers at the
    workplace keeps the blue collar workers safer.
    So the cleaners, receptionists and facilities teams should come into work tomorrow, the office workers should stay put.


    The office is still close so no, no and no.

    But he said everyone who can’t work from home must go to work.
    Subject to social distancing to be fair
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,676
    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:
    We've given the French an exemption from being forced to quarantine?

    Did we lose a war or something?
    Presumably the quid pro quo is that we retake control of Calais?
    That shows a disturbing lack of ambition, I'd expect the French to honour the Treaty of Troyes as a quid pro quo.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    This is the elephant in the room: the government clearly want folk back at work, except for in certain areas e.g. pubs, restaurants, retail etc. But what isn`t clear is how fast the furlough payments stop when they do. It sounded to me like "should" go back to work still implies choice. If it is a choice between 1) going back to work and losing furlough to be replaced by wages again, or 2) staying at home and continuing draw 80% from the government, then why go back to work?

    I would assume because furlough is the choice of the company not the individual workers. So if a company decides that some of its staff can return then they would no longer have the choice of furlough. Ity is exactly how things were done when furlough started with many companies sending a percentage of their workforce home but keeping the rest working.
    Yes - you`ve made my point for me. So ABC Ltd start operating again, employee X goes back to work, back to normal. Employee Y says "no, I`m not going back to work". So (presumably, and in my view regretably) Y continues to receive his 80/100% for staying at home off the back of his employer`s application for payment.

    So people choose Y.
    Er, no. Employee Y faces disciplinary action for not turning up to work. Employees have never been the decision-makers on whether to be on furlough or not.
    No - only if the employer refuses to comply with employees wishes. They won`t refuse. Why would they? They can keep employee on books at no cost.

    This won`t work. The government needs to announce an end to furlough payments for everyone except the specific industries which they are barring from operating. Work in a restaurant - furloughed. Work in building industry - go to work or don`t get paid.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    I have serious doubts on the government's competence to pull this off, and I fear that a failure on contact tracing is going to give us a second peak.

    Yeah, me too. It's such a major expansion, and we don't really have much experience of doing it at scale.

    One major new weapon is coming though: antibody tests have got very accurate, and will be used in big numbers. That'll really help on several fronts.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    edited May 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Where in the speech did he say tomorrow?

    Some people clearly are unable to listen to/understand simple sentences.
  • johnoundlejohnoundle Posts: 120

    Another person who appears to have had a lobotomy. It is now standard criticism from those who don't like Boris to cry confusion. There was nothing in there an 11 year old wouldn't have understood.
    I relay - it’s not particularly my view.

    My view was summed up by @Ishmael_Z above, it was a nothingburger. It was essentially a string of decisions yet to be taken and a few gewgaws now that make no real difference, save perhaps the one about going back to work which was so hedged it is unclear how directional the government intends to be (presumably because it doesn’t know).
    I wasn't saying it was. I was saying it is standard criticism by public figures who don't like Boris.

    They always go but but but this is far too confusing for the public to understand. They said the same at the start of the lockdown and the public showed they understood.

    You already know what the usual suspects are going to say even before Johnson has said anything. They are also convinced that common sense no longer exists.

    They obviously also missed (deliberately) that more details are being given to parliament tomorrow.
  • Andrew said:


    I have serious doubts on the government's competence to pull this off, and I fear that a failure on contact tracing is going to give us a second peak.

    Yeah, me too. It's such a major expansion, and we don't really have much experience of doing it at scale.

    One major new weapon is coming though: antibody tests have got very accurate, and will be used in big numbers. That'll really help on several fronts.
    Agreed with both of you completely.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    Just ignore.

    Don't forget when someone of your political persuasion enters PB you are like an Evertonian who enters a pub full of Liverpool fans
    Is this a criticism of me? I'm sorry I have different views to many here, I believe I've always been respectful in how I debate.
    Not directly. I am in the same boat, so it also applies to me.
    Thought you disagreed with quite a lot of what I post - but you seem fairly balanced in my view.

    I have no problem with opposing views, as long as people are respectful.
    I'll fly the red flag when I can, but never for Jeremy Corbyn. As you have now seen the light welcome to reality.
  • Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    Just ignore.

    Don't forget when someone of your political persuasion enters PB you are like an Evertonian who enters a pub full of Liverpool fans
    Is this a criticism of me? I'm sorry I have different views to many here, I believe I've always been respectful in how I debate.
    Not directly. I am in the same boat, so it also applies to me.
    Thought you disagreed with quite a lot of what I post - but you seem fairly balanced in my view.

    I have no problem with opposing views, as long as people are respectful.
    I'll fly the red flag when I can, but never for Jeremy Corbyn. As you have now seen the light welcome to reality.
    It's always good to accept one's failings and supporting Corbyn for so long was a mistake. I still support a lot of his policies though.

    I am happy enough with Starmer for now.

    Thank you for the welcome, friend.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,003
    https://twitter.com/andywightman/status/1259569443346227201

    Can we open the office in Leeds, but not the office Aberdeen?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    MaxPB said:

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    A lot of my friends who aren't married moved in with their partners if they weren't already living together before the lockdown was officially in place or after 14 days had passed. Some even went back home to their parents but are now seriously regretting it!
    You have no idea what it's like for so many who are cut off.
    Yes the lockdown sucks and sucks more for some people than others.

    The alternative is exponential growth of the virus and letting hundreds of thousands die.

    So pick your poison. Which would you prefer?
    That is a particularly heatless post. Grow up!
    Its cold analysis on a politics site of the options available to us yes but I don't see why growing up is needed and I acknowledged how shit the situation is.

    If there was a nice easy solution that let people socially gather while not making millions get sick and not having hundreds of die then don't you think we'd be doing that already?
  • Pulpstar said:

    I commented to my other half yesterday just how lucky we are right now.

    We both have each other, jobs that we can do mostly from home, a garden, friends, no home schooling to worry about, neither of us is vulnerable by condition or age and no relatives in a care home. Heck we've even got a stack of N95 respirator masks !
    The truth is most people simply aren't that lucky, and those of us in a happy situation should realise that for lots of people this is hard. Very very hard.

    Completely agree. At times this site can be fantastic but at other times it's heartless what I've seen posted.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    https://twitter.com/peston/status/1259564998386421760?s=21

    Disclosure: I’ve already done this and I have no regrets at all.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    If you thought Boris speech was a confusing mess of a shit show....try watching Westworld Season 3 or Billions Season 5...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/andywightman/status/1259569443346227201

    Can we open the office in Leeds, but not the office Aberdeen?

    How's this any different from having different health regulations either side of the border? You listen to the body that has authority in the relevant area.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    edited May 2020

    If you thought Boris speech was a confusing mess of a shit show....try watching Westworld Season 3 or Billions Season 5...

    HOW? Billions isn't on sky yet!!!!!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878
    RobD said:

    I hope everyone is being alert.

    That starts on Wed. ;)
    STAY ALERT
    CONTROL THE TORIES

    :innocent:
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    If you thought Boris speech was a confusing mess of a shit show....try watching Westworld Season 3 or Billions Season 5...

    ...or the Rise of Skywalker? ;)
  • If you thought Boris speech was a confusing mess of a shit show....try watching Westworld Season 3 or Billions Season 5...

    ...or the Rise of Skywalker? ;)
    Not again...it was bad enough the first time
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    https://twitter.com/peston/status/1259564998386421760?s=21

    Disclosure: I’ve already done this and I have no regrets at all.

    Most people did that - and then some - on VE Day!!
  • BudGBudG Posts: 711
    Biggest problem I have with this announcement is that, going forward, further loosening of the lock-down will be dependent upon this mysterious R number which at the moment, according to the PM. stands at somewhere between 0.5 and 0.9. Seems quite a wide range and at the upper limit is close to us tipping into another spike.

    Presumably it is the lack of testing that is making the size of the R number so uncertain.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    MaxPB said:

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    A lot of my friends who aren't married moved in with their partners if they weren't already living together before the lockdown was officially in place or after 14 days had passed. Some even went back home to their parents but are now seriously regretting it!
    You have no idea what it's like for so many who are cut off.
    Yes the lockdown sucks and sucks more for some people than others.

    The alternative is exponential growth of the virus and letting hundreds of thousands die.

    So pick your poison. Which would you prefer?
    That is a particularly heatless post. Grow up!
    Its cold analysis on a politics site of the options available to us yes but I don't see why growing up is needed and I acknowledged how shit the situation is.

    If there was a nice easy solution that let people socially gather while not making millions get sick and not having hundreds of die then don't you think we'd be doing that already?
    Sometimes, when one has nothing nice to say it is best to say nothing at all. cRB has indicated he is struggling under the circumstances, so the last thing he needs is someone who should know better adding to the distress by being unnecessarily unpleasant.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    BudG said:

    Biggest problem I have with this announcement is that, going forward, further loosening of the lock-down will be dependent upon this mysterious R number which at the moment, according to the PM. stands at somewhere between 0.5 and 0.9. Seems quite a wide range and at the upper limit is close to us tipping into another spike.

    Presumably it is the lack of testing that is making the size of the R number so uncertain.

    I thought it was more to do with geographical variation. Track and trace will be useful for helping to contain localised outbreaks.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    BudG said:

    Biggest problem I have with this announcement is that, going forward, further loosening of the lock-down will be dependent upon this mysterious R number which at the moment, according to the PM. stands at somewhere between 0.5 and 0.9. Seems quite a wide range and at the upper limit is close to us tipping into another spike.

    Presumably it is the lack of testing that is making the size of the R number so uncertain.

    Lack of testing? We're testing around 100k samples a day....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,878

    At least we're not as bad as the USA, part of a continuing series.

    https://twitter.com/PeterNimmo1/status/1259566474659856386?s=20

    Too many Tweets make a tw@t POTUS.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Not mine, won't start.

    And is been so smug about turning it over a couple of weeks ago.
  • What's the general consensus on whether Trump will be re-elected?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    Just ignore.

    Don't forget when someone of your political persuasion enters PB you are like an Evertonian who enters a pub full of Liverpool fans
    Is this a criticism of me? I'm sorry I have different views to many here, I believe I've always been respectful in how I debate.
    Not directly. I am in the same boat, so it also applies to me.
    Thought you disagreed with quite a lot of what I post - but you seem fairly balanced in my view.

    I have no problem with opposing views, as long as people are respectful.
    I'll fly the red flag when I can, but never for Jeremy Corbyn. As you have now seen the light welcome to reality.
    It's always good to accept one's failings and supporting Corbyn for so long was a mistake. I still support a lot of his policies though.

    I am happy enough with Starmer for now.

    Thank you for the welcome, friend.
    Keep the faith. When you do experience a GE97 moment it will be worth all the heartache. It may be a while coming, but when it does...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    At least we're not as bad as the USA, part of a continuing series.

    https://twitter.com/PeterNimmo1/status/1259566474659856386?s=20

    Too many Tweets make a tw@t POTUS.
    Trump is proving it’s possible to be both.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    MaxPB said:

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    A lot of my friends who aren't married moved in with their partners if they weren't already living together before the lockdown was officially in place or after 14 days had passed. Some even went back home to their parents but are now seriously regretting it!
    You have no idea what it's like for so many who are cut off.
    Yes the lockdown sucks and sucks more for some people than others.

    The alternative is exponential growth of the virus and letting hundreds of thousands die.

    So pick your poison. Which would you prefer?
    That is a particularly heatless post. Grow up!
    Its cold analysis on a politics site of the options available to us yes but I don't see why growing up is needed and I acknowledged how shit the situation is.

    If there was a nice easy solution that let people socially gather while not making millions get sick and not having hundreds of die then don't you think we'd be doing that already?
    Sometimes, when one has nothing nice to say it is best to say nothing at all. cRB has indicated he is struggling under the circumstances, so the last thing he needs is someone who should know better adding to the distress by being unnecessarily unpleasant.
    I wasn't trying to be unpleasant and I said it was shit and acknowledged that.

    I'm sorry for the unpleasantness people are going through, it is not nice at all for many people. Being at home with two restless housebound very young children who miss their friends and never stop or get a break is not easy either. Everyone is suffering now and I hope it ends soon.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    France short of PPE, and delays odd how that seems to have escaped Sky until tonight.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,259
    Mortimer said:

    BudG said:

    Biggest problem I have with this announcement is that, going forward, further loosening of the lock-down will be dependent upon this mysterious R number which at the moment, according to the PM. stands at somewhere between 0.5 and 0.9. Seems quite a wide range and at the upper limit is close to us tipping into another spike.

    Presumably it is the lack of testing that is making the size of the R number so uncertain.

    Lack of testing? We're testing around 100k samples a day....
    Although if a lot of the transmission is in care homes, it means R is effectively lower for most of us, who never go near one
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    What's the general consensus on whether Trump will be re-elected?

    Depends how efficient those Russian bots are.
  • Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    I understand that. Shit happens.
    Why are you so rude?
    Just ignore.

    Don't forget when someone of your political persuasion enters PB you are like an Evertonian who enters a pub full of Liverpool fans
    Is this a criticism of me? I'm sorry I have different views to many here, I believe I've always been respectful in how I debate.
    Not directly. I am in the same boat, so it also applies to me.
    Thought you disagreed with quite a lot of what I post - but you seem fairly balanced in my view.

    I have no problem with opposing views, as long as people are respectful.
    I'll fly the red flag when I can, but never for Jeremy Corbyn. As you have now seen the light welcome to reality.
    It's always good to accept one's failings and supporting Corbyn for so long was a mistake. I still support a lot of his policies though.

    I am happy enough with Starmer for now.

    Thank you for the welcome, friend.
    Keep the faith. When you do experience a GE97 moment it will be worth all the heartache. It may be a while coming, but when it does...
    I hope it comes soon. I sort of know Starmer and know he's a decent and smart bloke.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Mortimer said:

    If you thought Boris speech was a confusing mess of a shit show....try watching Westworld Season 3 or Billions Season 5...

    HOW? Billions isn't on sky yet!!!!!
    Have a US address / banking, so can sub.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    "Back to Work" was exactly right. The message is that if you can't work from home, you should go back again in the next few days. The angling etc is a distraction.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,567
    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    This is the elephant in the room: the government clearly want folk back at work, except for in certain areas e.g. pubs, restaurants, retail etc. But what isn`t clear is how fast the furlough payments stop when they do. It sounded to me like "should" go back to work still implies choice. If it is a choice between 1) going back to work and losing furlough to be replaced by wages again, or 2) staying at home and continuing draw 80% from the government, then why go back to work?

    I would assume because furlough is the choice of the company not the individual workers. So if a company decides that some of its staff can return then they would no longer have the choice of furlough. Ity is exactly how things were done when furlough started with many companies sending a percentage of their workforce home but keeping the rest working.
    Yes - you`ve made my point for me. So ABC Ltd start operating again, employee X goes back to work, back to normal. Employee Y says "no, I`m not going back to work". So (presumably, and in my view regretably) Y continues to receive his 80/100% for staying at home off the back of his employer`s application for payment.

    So people choose Y.
    No I don't think people have that choice. They certainly didn't have it when lockdown started. If a company decides they are ending the furlough then the worker has cannot themselves decide to stay on. The money will stop.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    theProle said:

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    This is the elephant in the room: the government clearly want folk back at work, except for in certain areas e.g. pubs, restaurants, retail etc. But what isn`t clear is how fast the furlough payments stop when they do. It sounded to me like "should" go back to work still implies choice. If it is a choice between 1) going back to work and losing furlough to be replaced by wages again, or 2) staying at home and continuing draw 80% from the government, then why go back to work?

    I would assume because furlough is the choice of the company not the individual workers. So if a company decides that some of its staff can return then they would no longer have the choice of furlough. Ity is exactly how things were done when furlough started with many companies sending a percentage of their workforce home but keeping the rest working.
    Yes - you`ve made my point for me. So ABC Ltd start operating again, employee X goes back to work, back to normal. Employee Y says "no, I`m not going back to work". So (presumably, and in my view regretably) Y continues to receive his 80/100% for staying at home off the back of his employer`s application for payment.

    So people choose Y.
    No. If the employer calls people in, and they won't come, then they get £0. If they are vulnerable and should be shielding, or if they are self isolating then they should get SSP, but that's not nearly as generous.

    Now some employers may be pragmatic - we've got a guy with reduced lung function, we'll keep him furloughed as long as possible over some of the other guys, but ultimately it's a decision entirely for the employer how they approach this sort of thing.

    Certainly employees can't just decide they like having their feet up for 80% money, that's not their call.
    Well, I hope you`re right. But I don`t get this at all.

    An example: my brother in law works for an architect/glass installer business. They have furloughed 50% of the staff and kept the other 50% working (my brother-in-law is pissed off because he was selected for the latter group, but that`s beside the point).

    Now - post speech today - they all should be back at work as asap - yes? But you are suggesting that the employer could still choose to keep group A on furlough.

    If this is the case, what has changed?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    dr_spyn said:

    France short of PPE, and delays odd how that seems to have escaped Sky until tonight.

    And the Germans. Has the EU scheme still not started providing yet?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    dr_spyn said:

    France short of PPE, and delays odd how that seems to have escaped Sky until tonight.

    And the Germans. Has the EU scheme still not started providing yet?
    Remarkable that getting a sclerotic bureaucracy to act as a middle man is slower than going to companies that produce and provide it direct. Whoever could have foreseen that?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    What's the general consensus on whether Trump will be re-elected?

    He should be 2/1 and he`s Evens.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    dr_spyn said:

    France short of PPE, and delays odd how that seems to have escaped Sky until tonight.

    And the Germans. Has the EU scheme still not started providing yet?
    It doesn't seem to be as much of an issue in the UK anymore. Wonder what's up on the continent.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    dr_spyn said:

    France short of PPE, and delays odd how that seems to have escaped Sky until tonight.

    Luckily, they were in the wonderful EU joint procurement scheme, which everyone seems to have gone very quiet about...

    It was meant to start delivering equipment at the very latest a couple of weeks ago, but I've heard nothing since then.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    MaxPB said:

    Could have been answered in a Tweet that, instead we had an empty and pointless announcement of nothing.

    As long as I am unable to leave my home for more than exercise, or go back to work in an office, life has not changed.

    Come on CHB, can't you for once, just once, take off the Party glasses?
    Nothing has changed for me. Perhaps for other people - but not for me.
    Then good yours didn't need to change then. You're able to go to the office now if you need to do so, and if you don't need to do so then what are you bothered about?
    Can't see some of my family or my friends - and I feel as isolated and lonely as I was before.
    They've deemed it not safe to change that yet.
    Its not particularly logical. You could have a household of 10 working in 5 separate locations who are all allowed to interact.

    Yet boyfriend and girlfriend living separately on their own and not going to work are supposed to not see each other for at least another 3 weeks.
    Going in to work you're supposed to socially distance still.

    Are you suggesting boyfriend and girlfriend living separately should see each other and socially distance while seeing each other? Interesting thought.
    No Im stating that two households of single people combined are far smaller than many households. They should be allowed to see each other as they please.

    Of course if you are a govt adviser you can just break the laws without any risk of enforcement.
    There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Once you say people can visit each other the lockdown is essentially over. I'm sorry for those who hadn't moved in with their loved one but they're just out of luck sorry and its not unreasonable of the government to not fix the fact they hadn't moved in together.
    Says the person living with a loving family.
    Yes both in the household and out of it. The government didn't get me my loving family and its not on the government to provide loving families. I have loved ones outside the household I'd love to see but we can't see each other beyond video calls at the minute.
    Yes, so imagine how you feel about not seeing your family out of your household and multiply that to include not seeing ANY family or friends.

    You are speaking from a position of huge privilege.
    A lot of my friends who aren't married moved in with their partners if they weren't already living together before the lockdown was officially in place or after 14 days had passed. Some even went back home to their parents but are now seriously regretting it!
    You have no idea what it's like for so many who are cut off.
    Yes the lockdown sucks and sucks more for some people than others.

    The alternative is exponential growth of the virus and letting hundreds of thousands die.

    So pick your poison. Which would you prefer?
    That is a particularly heatless post. Grow up!
    Its cold analysis on a politics site of the options available to us yes but I don't see why growing up is needed and I acknowledged how shit the situation is.

    If there was a nice easy solution that let people socially gather while not making millions get sick and not having hundreds of die then don't you think we'd be doing that already?
    Sometimes, when one has nothing nice to say it is best to say nothing at all. cRB has indicated he is struggling under the circumstances, so the last thing he needs is someone who should know better adding to the distress by being unnecessarily unpleasant.
    I wasn't trying to be unpleasant and I said it was shit and acknowledged that.

    I'm sorry for the unpleasantness people are going through, it is not nice at all for many people. Being at home with two restless housebound very young children who miss their friends and never stop or get a break is not easy either. Everyone is suffering now and I hope it ends soon.
    It might be nice if you addressed that comment to CHB. Nonetheless a good post.
  • ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    edited May 2020
    Just seen elsewhere someone's takeaway message.

    "The poorest are to go back to work".

    That's what is going to stick.

    I think the gloves are going to come off big time tomorrow.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    ukpaul said:

    Just seen elsewhere someone's takeaway message.

    "The poorest are to go back to work".

    That's what is going to stick.

    I think the gloves are going to come off big time tomorrow.

    Why would anyone be taking their gloves off at a time like this?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    eristdoof said:

    isam said:

    Yet the public (or the people who do opinion polls) rate him 48-19 better than Starmer in terms of who they'd like to lead us through the covid crisis.

    Someone who shook hands with people before telling us not to, was late to lockdown, responsible for tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths, caught the disease along with his closest allies in the fight against it, nearly died, looks like shit, and is forensically picked apart by Sir Keir at PMQs (to take his opponents view on all the aforementioned as legit)

    Either the polls are nonsense, or the public always prefer charisma to nerdiness. The polls may well be nonsense, but in real elections...

    When has the nerdier option won?

    1997 Blair vs Major - Nerd lost
    2001 Blair vs Hague - Nerd lost
    2005 Blair vs Howard - Nerd lost
    2010 Brown vs Cameron - Nerd lost
    2015 Cameron vs Miliband - Nerd lost
    2016 EU Ref Cameron & Osborne vs Boris & Farage - Nerds lost
    2017 May vs Corbyn - Nerd won narrowly after polls gave unassailable lead
    2019 Boris vs Corbyn - Nerd lost
    2024 Boris vs Starmer...


    This is a very subjective definition of Nerd. I notice that you have Corbyn as a nerd in 2019 but not in 2017. I don't think that Howard was a nerd. WIthout charisma yes but not nerdy. I would also say that Thatcher was both nerdy and charismatic, and to a lesser extent so was Tony Blair.
    It's relative to the person they were up against, so of course it can change. Corbyn isnt as much of a nerd as May but is far nerdier than Boris
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    What's the general consensus on whether Trump will be re-elected?

    Much of it depends on how Biden performs in the campaign. If he goes all Captain Alzheimers then Trump will walk it, if his team are able to hide that then it will be close. If Biden isn't the candidate then I think.the Dems will walk it.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    ukpaul said:

    ydoethur said:

    I think I just heard Ydoethur and every other secondary school teacher scream.

    Here is my question.

    I’m teaching from home.

    If I go back into school, because they don’t have the necessary tech, I can’t do that.

    So I might be able to teach 12 and 10.

    What happens to 7, 8 and 9?
    It sounded like all they are thinking about is a transition day or something. This idea of ‘seeing’ their teacher is nonsensical; likely a hastily changed sentence to replace something that fell apart during the talks with unions.

    By the end of June it’s just assemblies (not going to happen), prizegiving (not going to happen), sports days (not going to happen) and concerts (not going to happen) anyway.

    Quite embarrassing, really. If they are this confused over education it makes you question everything else. If they just want to let them see their mates they should have just said that.
    That is not the case in the state sector where we teach three weeks into July.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    That`s the best news of all. Skiing next season. Suddenly, life is worth living for me again!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    dr_spyn said:

    France short of PPE, and delays odd how that seems to have escaped Sky until tonight.

    Even after they confiscated that huge NHS order for masks from February?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    https://twitter.com/andywightman/status/1259569443346227201

    Can we open the office in Leeds, but not the office Aberdeen?

    How's this any different from having different health regulations either side of the border? You listen to the body that has authority in the relevant area.
    Exactly. Either you have devolution or you don't: part 17,225,453 in an ongoing series...
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    So if you what to go anywhere else in the would, just get a flight to France and then go to and form there? grate for the French airline industry, bad for the Uk tourist industry.
This discussion has been closed.