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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Other 2020 US Elections – the Democratic party fight to ta

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  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    edited May 2020



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    The dashboard now has LTLA areas.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    Banks and Guido are pretty close, AIUI.

    My 'charity' can be this site's app development fund :D
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    One for the site's geeks:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1258665220844720134?s=09

    Do I hear "I told you so"?

    I said if the first didn't work they would just switch to the second. Not the end of the world.
    Yes because that's just the sort of government we want. Blundering on wasting time in the face of obvious deficiencies until forced into a U-turn. Especially now.
    Yes that is the sort of government we want. Cracking straight on with things not wasting time dithering to decide and not being embarrassed about "u-turns" if a wrong move is made. Especially now.

    They could have spent a few weeks or months in committee trying to figure out every possible problem or just crack on and within 24 hours of these problems being highlighted they said there was a Plan B now it's confirmed they're working on Plan B.
    Or they could have listened to the tech industry three weeks ago and we'd have the app ready to go using the correct approach.
    Who in the tech industry do you listen to? They listened to some in the tech industry who said they could get it to work then when others in the tech industry said it wouldn't they started working on Plan B.

    If they'd ignored the warnings and had no Plan B then yes I'd be more concerned.
    There is no plan b, when are you going to get it through your skull. They are only starting to concept the correct approach. That means at least three weeks until we get a beta test. This is a new plan a. This isn't a political argument where there's no real right answer, the people who were touting the original method are simply incompetent yes men. There is only one method that is viable, it's the pathway provided by the OS developers to hook into the system management of Bluetooth. Anyone who said we can get two unknown devices to reliably handshake via a third party app using BLE is an incompetent fool or more dangerously a fantasist.

    We've had weeks of ignored warnings from the tech industry. Hopefully there's a proper investigation and everyone involved gets the sack.
    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."
    Except this is not that situation, the people involved went against industry advice, now they have to pay for that.
    They went with industry contractors who said they can make it work. As did many other nations.

    If the contractors were wrong so badly then don't pay them.
    No, they provided a spec to a code house who built an app for them to the spec. The spec was all in house by public sector tech workers. The development of this app was done in two parts which was the original error. One side ignored all of the industry warnings and specced a design, then handed it off to a third party because they probably don't have people who can code in Swift. Again, it's classic public sector approach, "let's make an impossible spec and then blame the private sector who couldn't deliver it."
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    All quiet over there so far.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    All we get on here is anecdotes about care homes. We have an obsession with those at the end of their lives.

    We never have anecdotes about younger workers completely frustrated by this policy who consider themselves responsible enough not to mix with older folk and do not see why they cannot go back to living their lives.

    Lives that are being completely ruined by a completely avoidable long lock down. They face effective imprisonment now, and long term penury, debt and poor life and health outcomes for their futures.

    They have been stripped of their human rights to work, meet, move freely in their own country and socialise. Stripped not by an invading power but by their own government. Their education has been junked and there are no indications as to when it might start again.

    At every turn in our country the young have been exploited, sacrificed and mortgaged in favour of a group of people who have largely lived a length of time unheard of in the past. People who, even forty years ago, simply wouldn;t be with us. And we not talking about all of these people .

    Just a subset who are very ill.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Did this wrong decision involve supporting Jeremy Corbyn by any chance?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    One for the site's geeks:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1258665220844720134?s=09

    Do I hear "I told you so"?

    I said if the first didn't work they would just switch to the second. Not the end of the world.
    Yes because that's just the sort of government we want. Blundering on wasting time in the face of obvious deficiencies until forced into a U-turn. Especially now.
    Yes that is the sort of government we want. Cracking straight on with things not wasting time dithering to decide and not being embarrassed about "u-turns" if a wrong move is made. Especially now.

    They could have spent a few weeks or months in committee trying to figure out every possible problem or just crack on and within 24 hours of these problems being highlighted they said there was a Plan B now it's confirmed they're working on Plan B.
    Or they could have listened to the tech industry three weeks ago and we'd have the app ready to go using the correct approach.
    Who in the tech industry do you listen to? They listened to some in the tech industry who said they could get it to work then when others in the tech industry said it wouldn't they started working on Plan B.

    If they'd ignored the warnings and had no Plan B then yes I'd be more concerned.
    There is no plan b, when are you going to get it through your skull. They are only starting to concept the correct approach. That means at least three weeks until we get a beta test. This is a new plan a. This isn't a political argument where there's no real right answer, the people who were touting the original method are simply incompetent yes men. There is only one method that is viable, it's the pathway provided by the OS developers to hook into the system management of Bluetooth. Anyone who said we can get two unknown devices to reliably handshake via a third party app using BLE is an incompetent fool or more dangerously a fantasist.

    We've had weeks of ignored warnings from the tech industry. Hopefully there's a proper investigation and everyone involved gets the sack.
    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."
    Except this is not that situation, the people involved went against industry advice, now they have to pay for that.
    They went with industry contractors who said they can make it work. As did many other nations.

    If the contractors were wrong so badly then don't pay them.
    No, they provided a spec to a code house who built an app for them to the spec. The spec was all in house by public sector tech workers. The development of this app was done in two parts which was the original error. One side ignored all of the industry warnings and specced a design, then handed it off to a third party because they probably don't have people who can code in Swift. Again, it's classic public sector approach, "let's make an impossible spec and then blame the private sector who couldn't deliver it."
    Surely the spec should include that it works?

    If the spec says "exchange Bluetooth codes" and that's not possible why build an app to that spec and not say "we can't make that work"?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    One for the site's geeks:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1258665220844720134?s=09

    Do I hear "I told you so"?

    I said if the first didn't work they would just switch to the second. Not the end of the world.
    Yes because that's just the sort of government we want. Blundering on wasting time in the face of obvious deficiencies until forced into a U-turn. Especially now.
    Yes that is the sort of government we want. Cracking straight on with things not wasting time dithering to decide and not being embarrassed about "u-turns" if a wrong move is made. Especially now.

    They could have spent a few weeks or months in committee trying to figure out every possible problem or just crack on and within 24 hours of these problems being highlighted they said there was a Plan B now it's confirmed they're working on Plan B.
    We need a competent government.

    If two random posters on PB get it instantly what do you think that says about the government's competence?

    You of all people I didn't expect to give the govt such a free pass. But I appreciate the virus has addled people's brains as well as the bodies of those directly affected.
    I don't give the government a free pass. I think they're working spinning many plates in a fast moving environment. Mistakes will be made inevitably especially when it comes to IT. If someone says something can work I can see why they'd go with it and if someone else says it can't but it's already been developed by now then the logical thing to do is test it while simultaneously working on a Plan B.

    I don't see a great difference between this and the failed antibody tests. Sometimes things don't work out but you need to be trying.

    If you never make mistakes you aren't trying to do enough!
    I don't think that cuts it right now. When working out how high the pasty tax should be or whether Jaffa Cakes are a cake or a biscuit (biscuit) that's fine.

    Partly not their fault because governments for decades have been spin machines designed to perpetuate themselves rather than benefit us lot but also their fault because when it matters (and it matters now) they need to get the big calls right and so far it appears they have failed to do so.

    But as some of us have been saying for some time, this government, and in particular this Prime Minister, is simply not cut out for a proper local crisis which affects British people in the UK. And so it seems to be proving.
    I think it cuts it now more than ever. There's less time for deliberation or committees so more mistakes will be made. A refusal to u turn when mistakes are made would be far far worse.

    I'd rather a government trying it's best willing to fail and move on than a sclerotic behemoth only doing what is right after the 30th committee gives it the green light.
    The correct way would have been to have two teams run the two solutions in parallel, then decide which one to use after testing. Unusually, money wasn't a problem, and neither was finding developers who are all somewhat quieter than usual to do the work.

    The issue wasn't the speed of the decision-making, which as you say has been fast, the issue was putting all the eggs in one basket - then leaving them there, as it became more and more obvious that the chosen solution was going to have serious technical issues.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    dr_spyn said:
    Of course. Tories get away with anything. Usually on a technicality.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    DavidL said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Did this wrong decision involve supporting Jeremy Corbyn by any chance?
    LOL
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    One for the site's geeks:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1258665220844720134?s=09

    Do I hear "I told you so"?

    I said if the first didn't work they would just switch to the second. Not the end of the world.
    Yes because that's just the sort of government we want. Blundering on wasting time in the face of obvious deficiencies until forced into a U-turn. Especially now.
    Yes that is the sort of government we want. Cracking straight on with things not wasting time dithering to decide and not being embarrassed about "u-turns" if a wrong move is made. Especially now.

    They could have spent a few weeks or months in committee trying to figure out every possible problem or just crack on and within 24 hours of these problems being highlighted they said there was a Plan B now it's confirmed they're working on Plan B.
    Or they could have listened to the tech industry three weeks ago and we'd have the app ready to go using the correct approach.
    Who in the tech industry do you listen to? They listened to some in the tech industry who said they could get it to work then when others in the tech industry said it wouldn't they started working on Plan B.

    If they'd ignored the warnings and had no Plan B then yes I'd be more concerned.
    There is no plan b, when are you going to get it through your skull. They are only starting to concept the correct approach. That means at least three weeks until we get a beta test. This is a new plan a. This isn't a political argument where there's no real right answer, the people who were touting the original method are simply incompetent yes men. There is only one method that is viable, it's the pathway provided by the OS developers to hook into the system management of Bluetooth. Anyone who said we can get two unknown devices to reliably handshake via a third party app using BLE is an incompetent fool or more dangerously a fantasist.

    We've had weeks of ignored warnings from the tech industry. Hopefully there's a proper investigation and everyone involved gets the sack.
    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."
    Except this is not that situation, the people involved went against industry advice, now they have to pay for that.
    They went with industry contractors who said they can make it work. As did many other nations.

    If the contractors were wrong so badly then don't pay them.
    No, they provided a spec to a code house who built an app for them to the spec. The spec was all in house by public sector tech workers. The development of this app was done in two parts which was the original error. One side ignored all of the industry warnings and specced a design, then handed it off to a third party because they probably don't have people who can code in Swift. Again, it's classic public sector approach, "let's make an impossible spec and then blame the private sector who couldn't deliver it."
    Surely the spec should include that it works?

    If the spec says "exchange Bluetooth codes" and that's not possible why build an app to that spec and not say "we can't make that work"?
    The spec included the hacky way of using Android phones as a keep-alive for iOS. The third party built to the spec. The spec was just shite. What part of that aren't you understanding?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    All we get on here is anecdotes about care homes. We have an obsession with those at the end of their lives.

    We never have anecdotes about younger workers completely frustrated by this policy who consider themselves responsible enough not to mix with older folk and do not see why they cannot go back to living their lives.

    Lives that are being completely ruined by a completely avoidable long lock down. They face effective imprisonment now, and long term penury, debt and poor life and health outcomes for their futures.

    They have been stripped of their human rights to work, meet, move freely in their own country and socialise. Stripped not by an invading power but by their own government. Their education has been junked and there are no indications as to when it might start again.

    At every turn in our country the young have been exploited, sacrificed and mortgaged in favour of a group of people who have largely lived a length of time unheard of in the past. People who, even forty years ago, simply wouldn;t be with us. And we not talking about all of these people .

    Just a subset who are very ill.

    Because there aren't young people who are so confined. There are young people who don't want to be responsible for killing their loved elders. The young support this policy.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375

    The dashboard now has LTLA areas.

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/


    The daily number of lab-confirmed cases in England by specimen date is a real eye opener.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    Banks and Guido are pretty close, AIUI.

    My 'charity' can be this site's app development fund :D
    Banks is possibly vain and rich and arrogant enough to do it, but most people's reaction would be, good, they didn't find any dirt, let's not go through a whole new process of examining the search for that dirt.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    edited May 2020
    I’m late to the party on units so I won’t rehash what others have said.
    Interesting that temperature is the one quantity where no one ever goes with the SI unit though.

    Edit: actually you can add weight to that.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    One for the site's geeks:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1258665220844720134?s=09

    Do I hear "I told you so"?

    I said if the first didn't work they would just switch to the second. Not the end of the world.
    Yes because that's just the sort of government we want. Blundering on wasting time in the face of obvious deficiencies until forced into a U-turn. Especially now.
    Yes that is the sort of government we want. Cracking straight on with things not wasting time dithering to decide and not being embarrassed about "u-turns" if a wrong move is made. Especially now.

    They could have spent a few weeks or months in committee trying to figure out every possible problem or just crack on and within 24 hours of these problems being highlighted they said there was a Plan B now it's confirmed they're working on Plan B.
    We need a competent government.

    If two random posters on PB get it instantly what do you think that says about the government's competence?

    You of all people I didn't expect to give the govt such a free pass. But I appreciate the virus has addled people's brains as well as the bodies of those directly affected.
    I don't give the government a free pass. I think they're working spinning many plates in a fast moving environment. Mistakes will be made inevitably especially when it comes to IT. If someone says something can work I can see why they'd go with it and if someone else says it can't but it's already been developed by now then the logical thing to do is test it while simultaneously working on a Plan B.

    I don't see a great difference between this and the failed antibody tests. Sometimes things don't work out but you need to be trying.

    If you never make mistakes you aren't trying to do enough!
    I don't think that cuts it right now. When working out how high the pasty tax should be or whether Jaffa Cakes are a cake or a biscuit (biscuit) that's fine.

    Partly not their fault because governments for decades have been spin machines designed to perpetuate themselves rather than benefit us lot but also their fault because when it matters (and it matters now) they need to get the big calls right and so far it appears they have failed to do so.

    But as some of us have been saying for some time, this government, and in particular this Prime Minister, is simply not cut out for a proper local crisis which affects British people in the UK. And so it seems to be proving.
    I think it cuts it now more than ever. There's less time for deliberation or committees so more mistakes will be made. A refusal to u turn when mistakes are made would be far far worse.

    I'd rather a government trying it's best willing to fail and move on than a sclerotic behemoth only doing what is right after the 30th committee gives it the green light.
    The correct way would have been to have two teams run the two solutions in parallel, then decide which one to use after testing. Unusually, money wasn't a problem, and neither was finding developers who are all somewhat quieter than usual to do the work.

    The issue wasn't the speed of the decision-making, which as you say has been fast, the issue was putting all the eggs in one basket - then leaving them there, as it became more and more obvious that the chosen solution was going to have serious technical issues.
    Tbh, the minute they had to include using Android devices as a keep-alive in the spec it should have set huge alarm bells ringing. The first thing I would have said in that meeting is "what if there aren't any android phones in the vicinity?" it's literally question one and it doesn't seem to have been asked let alone answered.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    While since we've seen this....Editor of the Jewish Chronicle leaps to the defence of the Labour leader.....

    https://twitter.com/stephenpollard/status/1258663498864889857?s=20
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury wins Houghton and Sunderland South!
  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52584774 Biden's accuser ups the ante. Can't see it stops the nomination but it's got to hit his support among women in November. Mind you, they can't really support the p***y grabber either.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    All quiet over there so far.
    I think its all "PPE and Tories want to kill oldies" now (Oldies who voted for Brexit and the Tories - ed.?)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    edited May 2020

    I’m late to the party on units so I won’t rehash what others have said.
    Interesting that temperature is the one quantity where no one ever goes with the SI unit though.

    Edit: actually you can add weight to that.

    Really? I would have said pounds are more popular than kilograms.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    Banks and Guido are pretty close, AIUI.

    My 'charity' can be this site's app development fund :D
    most people's reaction would be, good, they didn't find any dirt, let's not go through a whole new process of examining the search for that dirt.
    Like the Salmondistas?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    https://github.com/nhsx/COVID-19-app-iOS-BETA/issues/2

    Here's the thread on the "two locked iPhones can't talk to each other" problem. It's a random tech bro who has started it not anyone from the dev team.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Salmond wants to win 20 seats.

    Would never happen :smile:

    And indeed, hasn’t so far....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    One for the site's geeks:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1258665220844720134?s=09

    Do I hear "I told you so"?

    I said if the first didn't work they would just switch to the second. Not the end of the world.
    Yes because that's just the sort of government we want. Blundering on wasting time in the face of obvious deficiencies until forced into a U-turn. Especially now.
    Yes that is the sort of government we want. Cracking straight on with things not wasting time dithering to decide and not being embarrassed about "u-turns" if a wrong move is made. Especially now.

    They could have spent a few weeks or months in committee trying to figure out every possible problem or just crack on and within 24 hours of these problems being highlighted they said there was a Plan B now it's confirmed they're working on Plan B.
    Or they could have listened to the tech industry three weeks ago and we'd have the app ready to go using the correct approach.
    Who in the tech industry do you listen to? They listened to some in the tech industry who said they could get it to work then when others in the tech industry said it wouldn't they started working on Plan B.

    If they'd ignored the warnings and had no Plan B then yes I'd be more concerned.
    There is no plan b, when are you going to get it through your skull. They are only starting to concept the correct approach. That means at least three weeks until we get a beta test. This is a new plan a. This isn't a political argument where there's no real right answer, the people who were touting the original method are simply incompetent yes men. There is only one method that is viable, it's the pathway provided by the OS developers to hook into the system management of Bluetooth. Anyone who said we can get two unknown devices to reliably handshake via a third party app using BLE is an incompetent fool or more dangerously a fantasist.

    We've had weeks of ignored warnings from the tech industry. Hopefully there's a proper investigation and everyone involved gets the sack.
    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."
    Except this is not that situation, the people involved went against industry advice, now they have to pay for that.
    They went with industry contractors who said they can make it work. As did many other nations.

    If the contractors were wrong so badly then don't pay them.
    o_O
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    Banks and Guido are pretty close, AIUI.

    My 'charity' can be this site's app development fund :D
    most people's reaction would be, good, they didn't find any dirt, let's not go through a whole new process of examining the search for that dirt.
    Like the Salmondistas?
    You would have to ask them, I am not of their ilk.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Which one do you think Trump uses?

    https://twitter.com/qorquiq/status/1258590177179529216?s=20

    Correct answer: all of them.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Frankly for any kind of physical activity using Kilometres sounds wimpish

    If anybody ever uses "miles" in a discussion of cycling it's a clear sign that they are bike rider rather than a cyclist.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    ydoethur said:

    I’m late to the party on units so I won’t rehash what others have said.
    Interesting that temperature is the one quantity where no one ever goes with the SI unit though.

    Edit: actually you can add weight to that.

    Really? I would have said pounds are more popular than kilograms.
    And neither is the SI unit of weight
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    ydoethur said:

    I’m late to the party on units so I won’t rehash what others have said.
    Interesting that temperature is the one quantity where no one ever goes with the SI unit though.

    Edit: actually you can add weight to that.

    Really? I would have said pounds are more popular than kilograms.
    And neither is the SI unit of weight
    Ah, well, that’s a Newton to me.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Lol, will they hell. That would be a bonkers move by them.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited May 2020

    I’m late to the party on units so I won’t rehash what others have said.
    Interesting that temperature is the one quantity where no one ever goes with the SI unit though.

    Edit: actually you can add weight to that.

    Weight is the one where the SI unit used is 99.9% the wrong one and scales don't even display it !

    I use kgs for my weight precisely because most people don't have a handle on them. If I'm going to have to be revealing an unflattering truth, I don't want it understood.

    You should use newtons Alastair, noone has a handle on those :D
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    edited May 2020
    Deleted
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    The App - I know next to nothing about such things but I suppose there is a good reason why we are trying to build one rather than using one that has already been proven to work somewhere else?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    I've noticed that Guido is being cited more regularly recently as though it was reliable source. Standards are slipping on PB. It'll be Briebart next.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I’m late to the party on units so I won’t rehash what others have said.
    Interesting that temperature is the one quantity where no one ever goes with the SI unit though.

    Edit: actually you can add weight to that.

    Really? I would have said pounds are more popular than kilograms.
    And neither is the SI unit of weight
    Ah, well, that’s a Newton to me.
    😀
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Ave_it said:

    malcolmg said:

    Ave_it said:

    It's no coincidence that the Government is going to announce a modest relaxation of lockdown restrictions on Sunday night in areas such as garden centres and tips so the retired can enjoy them at their leisure from Monday onwards. Funny how there have been howls of protest about those and potential restrictions on the over 70s for the rest of the year (now quietly dropped) whilst schools and nurseries barely warrant a mention.

    Meanwhile, hardworking and exhausted families with young children who have been working solidly for weeks are going to miss out on enjoying this lovely bank holiday weekend because the Government don't have the courage to let them have a socially distanced picnic or enjoy a bit of sun outside without the rozzers coming down on them.

    Once again, this Government will be governing for their core vote: pensioners.

    It won't be forgotten.

    Absolutely agreed Casino. The restrictions on family meeting up are causing huge damage, and for no real benefit. Boris needs to remove these as a priority. People in high risk groups and their families can make appropriate pragmatic decisions for themselves to minimise the risk.
    Sounds more like bollox, I am sure given the dearth of coppers, unless you are picnicking in the high street or a very public place you are highly unlikely to have any issues. If done discreetly and not walking up main street with shedload of picnic baskets etc. More whining and whinging, take a cue from VE day, think if they had been whinging about picnics rather than getting on with it , where would we be now.
    Malcolm, of course we would have made further progress if Sturgeon and the Scottish executive hadn't messed it up in Scotland.

    Do you think the cause of Scottish nationalism needs someone fresh say Jim Sillars?

    You been at the cooking sherry already, gave me a laugh though Sillars makes IDS look like a politician with more than 2 brain cells
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    One for the site's geeks:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1258665220844720134?s=09

    Do I hear "I told you so"?

    I said if the first didn't work they would just switch to the second. Not the end of the world.
    Yes because that's just the sort of government we want. Blundering on wasting time in the face of obvious deficiencies until forced into a U-turn. Especially now.
    Yes that is the sort of government we want. Cracking straight on with things not wasting time dithering to decide and not being embarrassed about "u-turns" if a wrong move is made. Especially now.

    They could have spent a few weeks or months in committee trying to figure out every possible problem or just crack on and within 24 hours of these problems being highlighted they said there was a Plan B now it's confirmed they're working on Plan B.
    We need a competent government.

    If two random posters on PB get it instantly what do you think that says about the government's competence?

    You of all people I didn't expect to give the govt such a free pass. But I appreciate the virus has addled people's brains as well as the bodies of those directly affected.
    I don't give the government a free pass. I think they're working spinning many plates in a fast moving environment. Mistakes will be made inevitably especially when it comes to IT. If someone says something can work I can see why they'd go with it and if someone else says it can't but it's already been developed by now then the logical thing to do is test it while simultaneously working on a Plan B.

    I don't see a great difference between this and the failed antibody tests. Sometimes things don't work out but you need to be trying.

    If you never make mistakes you aren't trying to do enough!
    I don't think that cuts it right now. When working out how high the pasty tax should be or whether Jaffa Cakes are a cake or a biscuit (biscuit) that's fine.

    Partly not their fault because governments for decades have been spin machines designed to perpetuate themselves rather than benefit us lot but also their fault because when it matters (and it matters now) they need to get the big calls right and so far it appears they have failed to do so.

    But as some of us have been saying for some time, this government, and in particular this Prime Minister, is simply not cut out for a proper local crisis which affects British people in the UK. And so it seems to be proving.
    I think it cuts it now more than ever. There's less time for deliberation or committees so more mistakes will be made. A refusal to u turn when mistakes are made would be far far worse.

    I'd rather a government trying it's best willing to fail and move on than a sclerotic behemoth only doing what is right after the 30th committee gives it the green light.
    The correct way would have been to have two teams run the two solutions in parallel, then decide which one to use after testing. Unusually, money wasn't a problem, and neither was finding developers who are all somewhat quieter than usual to do the work.

    The issue wasn't the speed of the decision-making, which as you say has been fast, the issue was putting all the eggs in one basket - then leaving them there, as it became more and more obvious that the chosen solution was going to have serious technical issues.
    Tbh, the minute they had to include using Android devices as a keep-alive in the spec it should have set huge alarm bells ringing. The first thing I would have said in that meeting is "what if there aren't any android phones in the vicinity?" it's literally question one and it doesn't seem to have been asked let alone answered.
    I doubt that was written in the spec, it sounds like an almighty piece of fudge to workaround the fact that they'd developed something that didn't work as it should have done. The dev house aren't used to mobile apps, and probably didn't understand the restrictions on Bluetooth which now exist.

    The decision to go with Android v8+ is IMO more serious - that excludes nearly half of the Android base, most of which simply cannot be upgraded and will be in the hands of predominantly poor and older people. Google's solution goes back to v5, which covers 95% of devices in use. IOS11 is supported by any iPhone back to 2013's 5S.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    It’s astounding to think it’s ten years since the Labour defeat in 2010.

    It feels like a lifetime ago.

    Yes, my son had a class in modern studies yesterday about the rise and fall of new Labour. It felt more like a history topic to me. My wife read yesterday that Derek Draper has been on a ventilator for a month now. Not looking good.
    Why? Does he have Coronavirus?
    Believe he does.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,041

    This debate always ends in the same place.

    Metric measures are good for scientific calculations (brilliant, in fact) but they're not very human and a bit boring.

    Imperial measures of yards, feet and inches are better for estimating as their origins relate to the human body itself, and they are also far more interesting.

    Horses for courses.

    I was led to believe that a yard was the distance between the tip of your nose and the end of your extended arm.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    OllyT said:



    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    I've noticed that Guido is being cited more regularly recently as though it was reliable source. Standards are slipping on PB. It'll be Briebart next.
    Briebart? No chance. That’s just a cheesy site.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    kinabalu said:

    The App - I know next to nothing about such things but I suppose there is a good reason why we are trying to build one rather than using one that has already been proven to work somewhere else?

    I think every country has to build their own app because their testing systems and particular circumstance will be different but they should all be broadly similiar and compatible on the back end.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    Banks and Guido are pretty close, AIUI.

    My 'charity' can be this site's app development fund :D
    most people's reaction would be, good, they didn't find any dirt, let's not go through a whole new process of examining the search for that dirt.
    Like the Salmondistas?
    You would have to ask them
    Or read the papers....

    https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/1258681097245818881?s=20

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Barnesian said:

    Jonathan said:

    This debate always ends in the same place.

    Metric measures are good for scientific calculations (brilliant, in fact) but they're not very human and a bit boring.

    Imperial measures of yards, feet and inches are better for estimating as their origins relate to the human body itself, and they are also far more interesting.

    Horses for courses.

    I love the way they are all messed up. Cars are generally imperial, until you have to change a nut or talk about engine capacity, which has generally been in cc or litres. 🤷‍♂️
    I use farenheit for above freezing, celsius for below!

    I think it is good for brain training. It helps ward off dementia. It's like learning a second language.
    same with old money etc.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    All we get on here is anecdotes about care homes. We have an obsession with those at the end of their lives.

    We never have anecdotes about younger workers completely frustrated by this policy who consider themselves responsible enough not to mix with older folk and do not see why they cannot go back to living their lives.

    Lives that are being completely ruined by a completely avoidable long lock down. They face effective imprisonment now, and long term penury, debt and poor life and health outcomes for their futures.

    They have been stripped of their human rights to work, meet, move freely in their own country and socialise. Stripped not by an invading power but by their own government. Their education has been junked and there are no indications as to when it might start again.

    At every turn in our country the young have been exploited, sacrificed and mortgaged in favour of a group of people who have largely lived a length of time unheard of in the past. People who, even forty years ago, simply wouldn;t be with us. And we not talking about all of these people .

    Just a subset who are very ill.

    Because there aren't young people who are so confined. There are young people who don't want to be responsible for killing their loved elders. The young support this policy.
    Not even the old or 'late middle aged' support it, if you mean me. Here's a doctor's explanation of why it's stupid

    https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2020/04/21/the-anti-lockdown-strategy/

    His other posts are also worth reading by anyone who isn't in the pocket of 'big pharma'.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    One for the site's geeks:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1258665220844720134?s=09

    Do I hear "I told you so"?

    I said if the first didn't work they would just switch to the second. Not the end of the world.
    Yes because that's just the sort of government we want. Blundering on wasting time in the face of obvious deficiencies until forced into a U-turn. Especially now.
    Yes that is the sort of government we want. Cracking straight on with things not wasting time dithering to decide and not being embarrassed about "u-turns" if a wrong move is made. Especially now.

    They could have spent a few weeks or months in committee trying to figure out every possible problem or just crack on and within 24 hours of these problems being highlighted they said there was a Plan B now it's confirmed they're working on Plan B.
    We need a competent government.

    If two random posters on PB get it instantly what do you think that says about the government's competence?

    You of all people I didn't expect to give the govt such a free pass. But I appreciate the virus has addled people's brains as well as the bodies of those directly affected.
    I don't give the government a free pass. I think they're working spinning many plates in a fast moving environment. Mistakes will be made inevitably especially when it comes to IT. If someone says something can work I can see why they'd go with it and if someone else says it can't but it's already been developed by now then the logical thing to do is test it while simultaneously working on a Plan B.

    I don't see a great difference between this and the failed antibody tests. Sometimes things don't work out but you need to be trying.

    If you never make mistakes you aren't trying to do enough!
    I don't think that cuts it right now. When working out how high the pasty tax should be or whether Jaffa Cakes are a cake or a biscuit (biscuit) that's fine.

    Partly not their fault because governments for decades have been spin machines designed to perpetuate themselves rather than benefit us lot but also their fault because when it matters (and it matters now) they need to get the big calls right and so far it appears they have failed to do so.

    But as some of us have been saying for some time, this government, and in particular this Prime Minister, is simply not cut out for a proper local crisis which affects British people in the UK. And so it seems to be proving.
    I think it cuts it now more than ever. There's less time for deliberation or committees so more mistakes will be made. A refusal to u turn when mistakes are made would be far far worse.

    I'd rather a government trying it's best willing to fail and move on than a sclerotic behemoth only doing what is right after the 30th committee gives it the green light.
    However a decision on whether to use something already built and working or trying to bodge together your own so it is English made is a very stupid decision and shows them up as the cretins we know they are.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    Banks and Guido are pretty close, AIUI.

    My 'charity' can be this site's app development fund :D
    most people's reaction would be, good, they didn't find any dirt, let's not go through a whole new process of examining the search for that dirt.
    Like the Salmondistas?
    You would have to ask them
    Or read the papers....

    https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/1258681097245818881?s=20

    I tend to avoid twitter accounts with lots of flegs on them; the approximate rule is the more flegs the bigger the zoomer which certainly applies to Agent P.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2020

    All we get on here is anecdotes about care homes. We have an obsession with those at the end of their lives.

    We never have anecdotes about younger workers completely frustrated by this policy who consider themselves responsible enough not to mix with older folk and do not see why they cannot go back to living their lives.

    Lives that are being completely ruined by a completely avoidable long lock down. They face effective imprisonment now, and long term penury, debt and poor life and health outcomes for their futures.

    They have been stripped of their human rights to work, meet, move freely in their own country and socialise. Stripped not by an invading power but by their own government. Their education has been junked and there are no indications as to when it might start again.

    At every turn in our country the young have been exploited, sacrificed and mortgaged in favour of a group of people who have largely lived a length of time unheard of in the past. People who, even forty years ago, simply wouldn;t be with us. And we not talking about all of these people .

    Just a subset who are very ill.

    Because there aren't young people who are so confined. There are young people who don't want to be responsible for killing their loved elders. The young support this policy.
    Not even the old or 'late middle aged' support it, if you mean me. Here's a doctor's explanation of why it's stupid

    https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2020/04/21/the-anti-lockdown-strategy/

    His other posts are also worth reading by anyone who isn't in the pocket of 'big pharma'.
    I'm not in the habit of reading anyone who refers to people being "in the pocket of 'big pharma'".
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    Banks and Guido are pretty close, AIUI.

    My 'charity' can be this site's app development fund :D
    most people's reaction would be, good, they didn't find any dirt, let's not go through a whole new process of examining the search for that dirt.
    Like the Salmondistas?
    You would have to ask them
    Or read the papers....

    https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/1258681097245818881?s=20

    assume neither you nor Agent Pish got beyond the headline then
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    slade said:

    This debate always ends in the same place.

    Metric measures are good for scientific calculations (brilliant, in fact) but they're not very human and a bit boring.

    Imperial measures of yards, feet and inches are better for estimating as their origins relate to the human body itself, and they are also far more interesting.

    Horses for courses.

    I was led to believe that a yard was the distance between the tip of your nose and the end of your extended arm.
    so people with long arms have very long noses then
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,489
    Quite funny rewatching GE2010 coverage on BBC Parliament and hearing the usual speculation of long queues and therefore very high turnout.

    I remember expecting a massive LD surge and expecting them to get 80-90 seats.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    OllyT said:



    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    I've noticed that Guido is being cited more regularly recently as though it was reliable source. Standards are slipping on PB. It'll be Briebart next.
    Only the loonies are now still supporting so they are struggling to find any sensible sources
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2020
    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    One for the site's geeks:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1258665220844720134?s=09

    Do I hear "I told you so"?

    I said if the first didn't work they would just switch to the second. Not the end of the world.
    Yes because that's just the sort of government we want. Blundering on wasting time in the face of obvious deficiencies until forced into a U-turn. Especially now.
    Yes that is the sort of government we want. Cracking straight on with things not wasting time dithering to decide and not being embarrassed about "u-turns" if a wrong move is made. Especially now.

    They could have spent a few weeks or months in committee trying to figure out every possible problem or just crack on and within 24 hours of these problems being highlighted they said there was a Plan B now it's confirmed they're working on Plan B.
    We need a competent government.

    If two random posters on PB get it instantly what do you think that says about the government's competence?

    You of all people I didn't expect to give the govt such a free pass. But I appreciate the virus has addled people's brains as well as the bodies of those directly affected.
    I don't give the government a free pass. I think they're working spinning many plates in a fast moving environment. Mistakes will be made inevitably especially when it comes to IT. If someone says something can work I can see why they'd go with it and if someone else says it can't but it's already been developed by now then the logical thing to do is test it while simultaneously working on a Plan B.

    I don't see a great difference between this and the failed antibody tests. Sometimes things don't work out but you need to be trying.

    If you never make mistakes you aren't trying to do enough!
    I don't think that cuts it right now. When working out how high the pasty tax should be or whether Jaffa Cakes are a cake or a biscuit (biscuit) that's fine.

    Partly not their fault because governments for decades have been spin machines designed to perpetuate themselves rather than benefit us lot but also their fault because when it matters (and it matters now) they need to get the big calls right and so far it appears they have failed to do so.

    But as some of us have been saying for some time, this government, and in particular this Prime Minister, is simply not cut out for a proper local crisis which affects British people in the UK. And so it seems to be proving.
    I think it cuts it now more than ever. There's less time for deliberation or committees so more mistakes will be made. A refusal to u turn when mistakes are made would be far far worse.

    I'd rather a government trying it's best willing to fail and move on than a sclerotic behemoth only doing what is right after the 30th committee gives it the green light.
    However a decision on whether to use something already built and working or trying to bodge together your own so it is English made is a very stupid decision and shows them up as the cretins we know they are.
    There's nothing already built though that's the problem. It needs building either way.

    If it was already built then this would be even less of a big deal as we'd just download what was already built now.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602

    Quite funny rewatching GE2010 coverage on BBC Parliament and hearing the usual speculation of long queues and therefore very high turnout.

    I remember expecting a massive LD surge and expecting them to get 80-90 seats.

    It's oft-forgotten that the LDs went backwards in seat numbers in 2010.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,489
    I use Fahrenheit for measuring temperature to check someone's ill. I know 98 is normal and 100+ is ill.

    I don't use it for understanding temperature "outside" though. Celsius makes much more sense for that.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    NEW We’ve updated our analysis of excess mortality, to see how well different European countries’ official covid19 data capture underlying deaths:
    - Germany, Sweden, France + Belgium doing well (87%-97%)
    - UK and Netherlands rather less so (51%-54%)
    Source @TheEconomist @J_CD_T pic.twitter.com/7XkBKAAw2P

    — Sophie Pedder (@PedderSophie) May 7, 2020
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Hopefully this chap won't get corona virus ! https://twitter.com/jack_sommers
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,489
    The Conservative Party of 2010 feels like a totally different party.

    Won on a traditional Conservative economic platform (but with modernised social policies).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    I’m late to the party on units so I won’t rehash what others have said.
    Interesting that temperature is the one quantity where no one ever goes with the SI unit though.

    Edit: actually you can add weight to that.

    Weight is the one where the SI unit used is 99.9% the wrong one and scales don't even display it !

    I use kgs for my weight precisely because most people don't have a handle on them. If I'm going to have to be revealing an unflattering truth, I don't want it understood.

    You should use newtons Alastair, noone has a handle on those :D
    Isn't the issue simply that when people say weight they really mean mass?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    OllyT said:



    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    I've noticed that Guido is being cited more regularly recently as though it was reliable source. Standards are slipping on PB. It'll be Briebart next.
    Tbh I think pretty much all sources are grist to the political mill, it's just the hypocrisy of those who bleat about The Canary and Buzzfeed who then breathlessly report every emanation from Staines that gets me.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    Pulpstar said:

    I’m late to the party on units so I won’t rehash what others have said.
    Interesting that temperature is the one quantity where no one ever goes with the SI unit though.

    Edit: actually you can add weight to that.

    Weight is the one where the SI unit used is 99.9% the wrong one and scales don't even display it !

    I use kgs for my weight precisely because most people don't have a handle on them. If I'm going to have to be revealing an unflattering truth, I don't want it understood.

    You should use newtons Alastair, noone has a handle on those :D
    Isn't the issue simply that when people say weight they really mean mass?
    You say that like it’s a small thing.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,489



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited May 2020

    The Conservative Party of 2010 feels like a totally different party.

    Won on a traditional Conservative economic platform (but with modernised social policies).

    Actually it didn't win, it was a hung parliament. It took another 5 years for the Tories to get a majority and another 9 years for the Tories to get a comfortable working majority, the latter on a more statist economic platform with a pro Brexit, cut immigration agenda
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Pulpstar said:

    kinabalu said:

    The App - I know next to nothing about such things but I suppose there is a good reason why we are trying to build one rather than using one that has already been proven to work somewhere else?

    I think every country has to build their own app because their testing systems and particular circumstance will be different but they should all be broadly similiar and compatible on the back end.
    Guess that must be it. Does seem to be basically the same though. Report if sick, triggers alerts to the hub and to people you've rubbed up against. My sense is that the process will not work well here. Hope I'm wrong.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    One for the site's geeks:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1258665220844720134?s=09

    Do I hear "I told you so"?

    I said if the first didn't work they would just switch to the second. Not the end of the world.
    Yes because that's just the sort of government we want. Blundering on wasting time in the face of obvious deficiencies until forced into a U-turn. Especially now.
    Yes that is the sort of government we want. Cracking straight on with things not wasting time dithering to decide and not being embarrassed about "u-turns" if a wrong move is made. Especially now.

    They could have spent a few weeks or months in committee trying to figure out every possible problem or just crack on and within 24 hours of these problems being highlighted they said there was a Plan B now it's confirmed they're working on Plan B.
    We need a competent government.

    If two random posters on PB get it instantly what do you think that says about the government's competence?

    You of all people I didn't expect to give the govt such a free pass. But I appreciate the virus has addled people's brains as well as the bodies of those directly affected.
    I don't give the government a free pass. I think they're working spinning many plates in a fast moving environment. Mistakes will be made inevitably especially when it comes to IT. If someone says something can work I can see why they'd go with it and if someone else says it can't but it's already been developed by now then the logical thing to do is test it while simultaneously working on a Plan B.

    I don't see a great difference between this and the failed antibody tests. Sometimes things don't work out but you need to be trying.

    If you never make mistakes you aren't trying to do enough!
    I don't think that cuts it right now. When working out how high the pasty tax should be or whether Jaffa Cakes are a cake or a biscuit (biscuit) that's fine.

    Partly not their fault because governments for decades have been spin machines designed to perpetuate themselves rather than benefit us lot but also their fault because when it matters (and it matters now) they need to get the big calls right and so far it appears they have failed to do so.

    But as some of us have been saying for some time, this government, and in particular this Prime Minister, is simply not cut out for a proper local crisis which affects British people in the UK. And so it seems to be proving.
    I think it cuts it now more than ever. There's less time for deliberation or committees so more mistakes will be made. A refusal to u turn when mistakes are made would be far far worse.

    I'd rather a government trying it's best willing to fail and move on than a sclerotic behemoth only doing what is right after the 30th committee gives it the green light.
    The correct way would have been to have two teams run the two solutions in parallel, then decide which one to use after testing. Unusually, money wasn't a problem, and neither was finding developers who are all somewhat quieter than usual to do the work.

    The issue wasn't the speed of the decision-making, which as you say has been fast, the issue was putting all the eggs in one basket - then leaving them there, as it became more and more obvious that the chosen solution was going to have serious technical issues.
    Yes and putting them in the basket with the hole in it to boot.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    kinabalu said:

    NEW We’ve updated our analysis of excess mortality, to see how well different European countries’ official covid19 data capture underlying deaths:
    - Germany, Sweden, France + Belgium doing well (87%-97%)
    - UK and Netherlands rather less so (51%-54%)
    Source @TheEconomist @J_CD_T pic.twitter.com/7XkBKAAw2P

    — Sophie Pedder (@PedderSophie) May 7, 2020
    Those figures probably imply our death rate per head is higher thn Belgium's.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,602

    OllyT said:



    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    I've noticed that Guido is being cited more regularly recently as though it was reliable source. Standards are slipping on PB. It'll be Briebart next.
    Tbh I think pretty much all sources are grist to the political mill, it's just the hypocrisy of those who bleat about The Canary and Buzzfeed who then breathlessly report every emanation from Staines that gets me.
    If I want to know what Arron Banks and Nigel Farage are thinking, Guido's not a bad source for a starting point.

    If I want to know what Diane Abbot and Richard Burton are thinking, then The Canary probably isn't a bad source either.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,489
    HYUFD said:

    The Conservative Party of 2010 feels like a totally different party.

    Won on a traditional Conservative economic platform (but with modernised social policies).

    Actually it didn't win, it was a hung parliament. It took another 5 years for the Tories to get a majority and another 9 years for the Tories to get a comfortable working majority, the latter on a more statist economic platform with a pro Brexit, cut immigration agenda
    Thanks for filling me in on the blanks.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    kinabalu said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
    Best interview I saw was Tommy Saxondale interviewing his dopy but nice assistant for the job as his sidekick pest controller .
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    One for the site's geeks:

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1258665220844720134?s=09

    Do I hear "I told you so"?

    I said if the first didn't work they would just switch to the second. Not the end of the world.
    Yes because that's just the sort of government we want. Blundering on wasting time in the face of obvious deficiencies until forced into a U-turn. Especially now.
    Yes that is the sort of government we want. Cracking straight on with things not wasting time dithering to decide and not being embarrassed about "u-turns" if a wrong move is made. Especially now.

    They could have spent a few weeks or months in committee trying to figure out every possible problem or just crack on and within 24 hours of these problems being highlighted they said there was a Plan B now it's confirmed they're working on Plan B.
    We need a competent government.

    If two random posters on PB get it instantly what do you think that says about the government's competence?

    You of all people I didn't expect to give the govt such a free pass. But I appreciate the virus has addled people's brains as well as the bodies of those directly affected.
    I don't give the government a free pass. I think they're working spinning many plates in a fast moving environment. Mistakes will be made inevitably especially when it comes to IT. If someone says something can work I can see why they'd go with it and if someone else says it can't but it's already been developed by now then the logical thing to do is test it while simultaneously working on a Plan B.

    I don't see a great difference between this and the failed antibody tests. Sometimes things don't work out but you need to be trying.

    If you never make mistakes you aren't trying to do enough!
    I don't think that cuts it right now. When working out how high the pasty tax should be or whether Jaffa Cakes are a cake or a biscuit (biscuit) that's fine.

    Partly not their fault because governments for decades have been spin machines designed to perpetuate themselves rather than benefit us lot but also their fault because when it matters (and it matters now) they need to get the big calls right and so far it appears they have failed to do so.

    But as some of us have been saying for some time, this government, and in particular this Prime Minister, is simply not cut out for a proper local crisis which affects British people in the UK. And so it seems to be proving.
    I think it cuts it now more than ever. There's less time for deliberation or committees so more mistakes will be made. A refusal to u turn when mistakes are made would be far far worse.

    I'd rather a government trying it's best willing to fail and move on than a sclerotic behemoth only doing what is right after the 30th committee gives it the green light.
    However a decision on whether to use something already built and working or trying to bodge together your own so it is English made is a very stupid decision and shows them up as the cretins we know they are.
    There's nothing already built though that's the problem. It needs building either way.

    If it was already built then this would be even less of a big deal as we'd just download what was already built now.
    The API was offered by apple/google and is in use elsewhere already, they chose to be stupid and not use it and try to be big shots and build a home made one so they could get at the data
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    kinabalu said:

    NEW We’ve updated our analysis of excess mortality, to see how well different European countries’ official covid19 data capture underlying deaths:
    - Germany, Sweden, France + Belgium doing well (87%-97%)
    - UK and Netherlands rather less so (51%-54%)
    Source @TheEconomist @J_CD_T pic.twitter.com/7XkBKAAw2P

    — Sophie Pedder (@PedderSophie) May 7, 2020
    A quick rub of my crystal ball foresees a hasty reversion to 'international comparisons are very bad'.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,489
    kinabalu said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
    You need to present yourself in the best possible light, and there is a technique to master in learning how to do that.

    If you just turn up and 'be yourself' naturally, without learning that, you might not get the job.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    Message just popped up on F/b to the effect that Boris wasn't admitted to St Thomas' bur with 'other problems'. Source is, apparently 'a whistleblower', but on St T's staff.

    Large pinch of salt required I suspect, but.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited May 2020
    Chris said:

    Those figures probably imply our death rate per head is higher thn Belgium's.

    Could well be. As a general point, I was surprised at the size of the national variances.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    kinabalu said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
    You need to present yourself in the best possible light, and there is a technique to master in learning how to do that.

    If you just turn up and 'be yourself' naturally, without learning that, you might not get the job.
    Just imagine you are a Tory and lie about everything, real whoppers. That will et you through.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816

    kinabalu said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
    You need to present yourself in the best possible light, and there is a technique to master in learning how to do that.

    If you just turn up and 'be yourself' naturally, without learning that, you might not get the job.
    Be yourself but a slightly more assertive self - tends to work i find in interviews - Statistically you will get more rejections than offers at interviews so it makes sense to be not that bothered in your mindset - This tends to relax you but also makes you a bit more assertive in that you have trained your brain to think you sort of have a free go so may has well stick up for yourself. Some interviewers (the HR type ) dont like this but many interviewers do so you tend to stick out a bit more
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,489
    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
    You need to present yourself in the best possible light, and there is a technique to master in learning how to do that.

    If you just turn up and 'be yourself' naturally, without learning that, you might not get the job.
    Just imagine you are a Tory and lie about everything, real whoppers. That will et you through.
    I can't do that. I'm too honest.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited May 2020

    A quick rub of my crystal ball foresees a hasty reversion to 'international comparisons are very bad'.

    Apples and (insert fruit of choice that is not apples).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,489

    kinabalu said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
    You need to present yourself in the best possible light, and there is a technique to master in learning how to do that.

    If you just turn up and 'be yourself' naturally, without learning that, you might not get the job.
    Be yourself but a slightly more assertive self - tends to work i find in interviews - Statistically you will get more rejections than offers at interviews so it makes sense to be not that bothered in your mindset - This tends to relax you but also makes you a bit more assertive in that you have trained your brain to think you sort of have a free go so may has well stick up for yourself. Some interviewers (the HR type ) dont like this but many interviewers do so you tend to stick out a bit more
    HR types usually insist on a "competency based" interview (what the hell does that mean?) where you have to answer each question with a STAR technique so they can fill their forms accordingly.

    The worst interview I ever had (and one of the very few that didn't result in a subsequent job offer) was one of those: they got a bit aggressive on some of their questioning which was totally unnecessary.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,264

    I use Fahrenheit for measuring temperature to check someone's ill. I know 98 is normal and 100+ is ill.

    I don't use it for understanding temperature "outside" though. Celsius makes much more sense for that.

    Reminds me of an incident on the Today programme when a correspondent in Siberia was reporting on a cold snap. "It's minus forty here," he gushed. "Centigrade or Fahrenheit?" enquired the presenter (probably Brian Redhead or maybe Jack De Manio). "Dunno" came the reply.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Excellent thread, thank you.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,489
    Tessa Jowell on.

    That makes me sad. I liked her and it's not fair what happened to her.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    edited May 2020

    kinabalu said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
    You need to present yourself in the best possible light, and there is a technique to master in learning how to do that.

    If you just turn up and 'be yourself' naturally, without learning that, you might not get the job.
    Be yourself but a slightly more assertive self - tends to work i find in interviews - Statistically you will get more rejections than offers at interviews so it makes sense to be not that bothered in your mindset - This tends to relax you but also makes you a bit more assertive in that you have trained your brain to think you sort of have a free go so may has well stick up for yourself. Some interviewers (the HR type ) dont like this but many interviewers do so you tend to stick out a bit more
    HR types usually insist on a "competency based" interview (what the hell does that mean?) where you have to answer each question with a STAR technique so they can fill their forms accordingly.

    The worst interview I ever had (and one of the very few that didn't result in a subsequent job offer) was one of those: they got a bit aggressive on some of their questioning which was totally unnecessary.
    yes its a bit patronising to the interviewee to be openly scored like as if you were doing a dive at the Olympics.
    Last year I achieved a lifetime ambition of actually walking out of an interview (perhaps being overly assertive!!) because of the questions . I thought this only happened in films! It felt outerwordly as i felt my legs lift up from the chair and go to the door!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
    You need to present yourself in the best possible light, and there is a technique to master in learning how to do that.

    If you just turn up and 'be yourself' naturally, without learning that, you might not get the job.
    My trick used to be "relax, you don't really want this job anyway" - since nerves were my biggest problem. Same with my driving test. Failed the first one through sheer anxiety (I had the skills). Second time, quelled the nerves with a large vodka and sailed through.

    But I'm glad those days of tests, IVs, etc are (for me) over.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,489

    I use Fahrenheit for measuring temperature to check someone's ill. I know 98 is normal and 100+ is ill.

    I don't use it for understanding temperature "outside" though. Celsius makes much more sense for that.

    Reminds me of an incident on the Today programme when a correspondent in Siberia was reporting on a cold snap. "It's minus forty here," he gushed. "Centigrade or Fahrenheit?" enquired the presenter (probably Brian Redhead or maybe Jack De Manio). "Dunno" came the reply.
    It probably didn't matter.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    At the risk of having a bucketload of sh*t metaphorically hurled at me, I am utterly sick of VE Day and all the toe-curling “we’ll meet again/heroes/never forget” nonsense again. We have Remembrance Day to remember the dead.

    We can’t be bothered to look properly after old people in care homes while we sentimentalise people who died years ago.

    Hell, we can’t even remember the war properly. Britain was not alone. Look at all the Polish names on the memorials to Battle of Britain, for instance. Instead, shamefully, we refused to let Poles march in the victory parade in 1945 preferring to appease their new oppressor, Stalin, instead. Churchill even refused to mention in his end of the war speech all those bomber pilots who lost their lives bombing Germany and for a time that was pretty much what the British war effort amounted to.

    And now their sacrifices are being used as part of an “I’m more patriotic/British than you” act. Bah, humbug!

    Honour the dead. Understand history properly. But let’s stop being trapped in our 1940’s history. It is history not the prism through which every bloody policy decision now should be seen or filtered.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Didn’t notice this from a couple of days back.

    'Abandoned' care homes warn councils of legal action
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/06/abandoned-care-homes-warn-councils-legal-action/
    ... Care home managers have questioned whether local authorities should face corporate manslaughter charges over their response to coronavirus.

    Councils have been accused of failing to hand over extra funds from the Government, leading one manager to accuse local authorities of “sitting on your hands, watching people die”.

    The Government has given councils an extra £3.2 billion to cover the costs of coronavirus and last week told them to spend up to 10 per cent more on social care.

    However, some are only offering five per cent, while it is understood others are yet to have promised anything at all....
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I use Fahrenheit for measuring temperature to check someone's ill. I know 98 is normal and 100+ is ill.

    I don't use it for understanding temperature "outside" though. Celsius makes much more sense for that.

    Reminds me of an incident on the Today programme when a correspondent in Siberia was reporting on a cold snap. "It's minus forty here," he gushed. "Centigrade or Fahrenheit?" enquired the presenter (probably Brian Redhead or maybe Jack De Manio). "Dunno" came the reply.
    "Yes" is the right answer. Also, new thread.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    kinabalu said:



    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.

    I've made it to my 50s without ever having experienced a job interview. Which is a probably a good thing...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
    Best interview I saw was Tommy Saxondale interviewing his dopy but nice assistant for the job as his sidekick pest controller .
    And the inevitable Brent -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPu_d4SSOPk
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Meanwhile, some community care workers are being treated abysmally.

    We care workers face a terrible decision: risk people's lives or go without pay
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/08/care-workers-pay-ppe-stress-zero-hours-contracts-coronavirus
    ... Like many care workers in the UK, I’m on a zero-hours contract. My hours plummeted to between four and eight a week, amounting to less than the £95 a week we can get from statutory sick pay, and definitely not enough to live on. Though my manager reassured me there would be more hours, there weren’t – and he refused to furlough me in case there were staff shortages later on.

    Work became increasingly stressful. Our team of carers had to make boxes of gloves last as long as possible. Face masks or visors were out of the question, and hand sanitiser quickly ran out. We continued as if it were business as usual. One client was discharged from hospital with pneumonia (she hadn’t been tested for coronavirus as it was still early in the pandemic). I was instructed to carry on her calls as normal – taking her out to get shopping and fresh air – despite government advice about social distancing. Knowing I could put her life at risk if I had the virus, or contracted it from her and passed it to others, I refused....
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    malcolmg said:

    OllyT said:



    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Carole's not going to be best pleased.....
    According to Guido a few weeks ago, Arron Banks and Darren Grimes are seriously looking at a private prosecution against the Electoral Commission. Get the popcorn ready for that one!
    Ah, Guido...

    I'll give £20 to your favourite charity if that comes to pass.
    I've noticed that Guido is being cited more regularly recently as though it was reliable source. Standards are slipping on PB. It'll be Briebart next.
    Only the loonies are now still supporting so they are struggling to find any sensible sources
    I suspect that is the case, even the Mail online has gone rogue! Soon be like the good old days when Plato regaled us with every loony conspiracy site in existence.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    As a contrarian to those who aren't keen on the fuss about VE Day I think it can mean a lot to those from that generation still with us. And we should be grateful we still have some with us ... I was young for the comparable anniversary for WWI and didn't fully comprehend it's importance then, now there's nobody left from then.

    My wife's put a lot of effort into VE Day commemorations in the home she works at, they've been doing things through this week and it's been very much appreciated. She said yesterday there were a couple of people who'd fought in the war smiling with tears in their eyes.

    Like anything in life it can be abused but this anniversary is significant and meaningful to many we are fortunate to still have with us. We shouldn't take that for granted while we bicker about other things. We should pay less attention to those who abuse it and more attention to those we should appreciate.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
    You need to present yourself in the best possible light, and there is a technique to master in learning how to do that.

    If you just turn up and 'be yourself' naturally, without learning that, you might not get the job.
    Just imagine you are a Tory and lie about everything, real whoppers. That will et you through.
    I can't do that. I'm too honest.
    :D
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932
    edited May 2020

    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
    You need to present yourself in the best possible light, and there is a technique to master in learning how to do that.

    If you just turn up and 'be yourself' naturally, without learning that, you might not get the job.
    Just imagine you are a Tory and lie about everything, real whoppers. That will et you through.
    I can't do that. I'm too honest.
    Do what you said earlier. Create (or google) a bunch of likely interview questions, write them on index cards, shuffle and practise answering them, say six at a time, *out loud*.

    Just as for politicians, being interviewed is a learned skill, so learn it (if you will be interviewed in the near future, otherwise don't waste your time).

    One reason for shuffling questions is the answers change depending when a question is asked. "How did you find the place?" as the first question is just the panel being polite; as the fifth question means they really want to know.

    The reason for practising *out loud* is not to overlearn scripted answers but to get rid of the umming and aahing at the start of each answer that too often sinks people, especially the more introverted types.

    Make sure your practice questions include, tell us a joke! Good luck.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:



    They said there was a plan B already. And this sack anyone who makes a mistake or does a u turn mentality is part of what is wrong with this country. It's why decisions take months or years to make with committee after committee after committee never bloody getting anything done.

    Just bloody do what you think is right and if it's wrong learn from your mistake so you don't make it again. That's the right attitude.

    A good quote someone working for a multinational once said to me was he realised he'd made a mistake that would cost his company a million dollars. He informed his boss and said he'd hand in his resignation for the mistake. The boss said "why would I want you to resign? I've just spent a million dollars training you."

    That's a well-known (good) story, so I wonder if it really happened to your particular acquaintance, but maybe his boss had hear the story and decided to reuse it.

    I agree with you most of the time, on one condition - you recognise that you've made a mistake. Ideally, you acknowledge it and explain what you're doing to avoid repeating it. If you merely say you did everything right, and now you're going to carry on doing everything right, it's difficult to have much confidence that you've actually understood.

    At my last interview for my current job, I was asked to give an example of a line management problem that I'd solved. I gave an example of when I'd actually made the wrong decision, and what I'd done about it and learned from it. I was told later that the panel liked that - they weren't looking for impervious perfection, but for people who react to crises and change, without putting up a front.
    Well phrased. That's the point I was trying to make but you made it even better.
    Interview panels like that sound a nightmare.

    I can never think of a well structured example fast enough (even though I have them) so I end up waffling.

    Mind you, I should probably game certain interview and question scenarios and practice answers. Trick is then not to sound too robotic and stilted.
    Main thing, in my experience, is not to be yourself.
    You need to present yourself in the best possible light, and there is a technique to master in learning how to do that.

    If you just turn up and 'be yourself' naturally, without learning that, you might not get the job.
    My trick used to be "relax, you don't really want this job anyway" - since nerves were my biggest problem. Same with my driving test. Failed the first one through sheer anxiety (I had the skills). Second time, quelled the nerves with a large vodka and sailed through.

    But I'm glad those days of tests, IVs, etc are (for me) over.
    including breath tests!
This discussion has been closed.