Not much evidence of British stoicism there really, is there?
It is pretty stoic to give up your lifestyle and income to protect your family’s health.
Depends if it means you can sit in your garden instead of the office all summer whilst still getting paid, or you are cooped up in a tiny flat with young kids or are a supermarket delivery driver or shelf stacker having to work in stressful conditions perhaps?
Indeed. If you are cooped up in a flat with no garden but still willing to go through that to protect your family’s health then it really is stoicism.
They aren't "willing" they are obeying. They have no choice. I have no choice.
9% are resisting the lockdown. 44% are struggling but obeying. Only 48% are accepting. So actually, a majority really don't like the lockdown:
I am not telling you about stoicism. I understand you are not getting what you want and that it is very frustrating for you. I am merely observing that those who are concerned about ending the lockdown are not all cowards. Some are willing to give up a hell of a lot to protect their families. Why is it, do you think, that so many essential workers, who are still out and about and working, are not sending their kids to school even though they can? Is it cowardice?
They now don't have much choice. In my area several schools have now closed for good.
Dear me. Do you have any names?
Yes, our school and nursery is one of them.
They must have had zero reserves, Even living hand to mouth they should have been able to furlough non teaching staff and reduce fees. If a critical mass of parents are that fickle that they wouldn’t support the school you have to question how they came to have such a low level of trust and goodwill.
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
Hard to think of a company more cynical towards its users than Apple.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
Being a Name (on Lloyds) is a bit of a downer.
There are hardly any traditional Names left in Lloyd's. The vast majority of the capital is from corporate sources, and has been for some time.
Pandemics are traditionally a standard exclusion on virtually all insurance policies. However, the industry is currently realising that this wasn't as clear in the policy wording as it could have been, and there are a number of cases where they have a choice between paying out and risking insolvency, or contesting coverage and risking huge reputational damage. It's worth bearing in mind that the media are downright terrible at getting the facts straight when reporting complicated (or even simple) arguments about financial products small print, although I don't doubt there are areas where the insurers are abusing their position.
On travel insurance specifically: certainly cancellation due to a pandemic wasn't ever intended to be covered generally, as travel insurance primarily exists to cover healthcare costs if caught ill whilst abroad. However, the problem is how the policies are sold: typically marketed on price alone, and sold as an add-on to things like flights, or package holidays, or free with bank accounts. Policyholders often don't know what they've bought, and assume it covers all forms of loss to them related to their holiday. This is part of a wider problem, whereby the public are no longer expected to understand what they've signed up to, and the longstanding principle of caveat emptor is effectively dead. So this has long been an accident waiting to happen, and the insurance industry is going to get it in the neck, even if they're technically in the right.
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
I mean Apple TV+ has always been primarily for those in the Apple ecosystem. I watch it on an Apple TV or my iPad and it works great.
I don’t think Apple are bothered if those who watch it in Firefox on an old Toshiba laptop can no longer do so.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
Hard to think of a company more cynical towards its users than Apple.
Amazon?
What's wrong with Amazon to its users? Amazon has great customer service which is the reason it has such high market share.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Indeed. We have a holiday in the Algarve booked this summer, which almost certainly won't happen. It's an annoyance - I was looking forward to it - but compared to what other people are going through a relatively trivial matter. I'll be happy if I can get most of the money back for it and if I can't, well, it's not money I couldn't afford. Worse things happen at sea!
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
How does not going on a paid holiday put you into economic hardship? I don’t get it. I imagine you might be fed up and sad, but not financially worse off.
The trouble is there is a big divide , opened up by the Brexit vote . The old voted for it and disregarded the opportunity Europe may present to the young. I didn't see much collective regard to that by leave voters who were generally over 55.
Comrade Corona aka the Leaver Reaver has his finger on the demographic scales.
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
Hard to think of a company more cynical towards its users than Apple.
Amazon?
What's wrong with Amazon to its users? Amazon has great customer service which is the reason it has such high market share.
It appears to abandon its hardware after little more than a year. Apple supports its hardware for 5 years+ with constant software updates, both features and bug fixes.
My 3 year old iPhone keeps going strong, and will have software updates and the latest features for probably another 3 years at least. Apple will also replace the battery for £30 to facilitate this.
What is going to be essential for any sort of "return to normal" (and it won't be) is a substantial fall in the death rate. Yesterday's figures were highly discouraging in that respect. While Italy, Spain and France have all got themselves in the 200s we are still at 739. I appreciate that this has catch up and may well be more comprehensive etc etc but we are still very high. It will be difficult for the government to make substantial moves until the rate is under 100 a day and even then.... I think its a few weeks away yet although there may be some token gestures in the meantime.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
I agree and think Mr G is wrong to blame the EU. And as you can see I have/am going thru this loop currently.
The EU have acted appropriately to protect travellers and the industry. The UK has not. See ABTA web site (assuming it hasn't changed since I needed to go there). They are crying out for the Govt to change the rules to help all parties. The stupid thing is there are no costs to these changes.
The EU has acted the UK has not. I posted about this several weeks ago.
But the EU, pushed by Germany and others is about to remove the right to a 14 day cancellation refund plunging millions across europe into chaos
What is going to be essential for any sort of "return to normal" (and it won't be) is a substantial fall in the death rate. Yesterday's figures were highly discouraging in that respect. While Italy, Spain and France have all got themselves in the 200s we are still at 739. I appreciate that this has catch up and may well be more comprehensive etc etc but we are still very high. It will be difficult for the government to make substantial moves until the rate is under 100 a day and even then.... I think its a few weeks away yet although there may be some token gestures in the meantime.
I thought we were running at an average of around 300 a day now?
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
Do you prefer refunds or job losses? How can you be put into financial difficulty from not getting a holiday refund?
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
Hard to think of a company more cynical towards its users than Apple.
Amazon?
After 30 years I still bask in the warm glow of the two Steves' inventions.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
As I thought Ian, but real life proves different, although I have been pretty lucky.
So an expensive holiday booked through and agent and an event booked direct both with credit card. Separate trip - flight booked by relative using debit card and car hire booked direct by my wife with credit card.
Travel Insurance in place for all.
ABTA does not provide any cover and only applies to trip booked through the travel agent anyway and they have changed their guidance/rues as a result of Covid 19. The changes are sensible, but fall apart when you get down to detail. So I was going for one of the options but would lose my travel insurance as my trip would be rebooked and I would no longer be covered for Covid 19. So useless.
ATOL only covers the trip booked through the travel agent and they haven't gone bust so no cover.
Section 75 for a claim through the credit card does not work as I have booked through a 3rd party, the travel agent so no cover. Same re event as that went through a booking agent. The car hire is under £100 so no cover under Section 75 either.
The travel insurance will not pay out on the main holiday as the holiday company cancelled and not me so it is up to the holiday company to refund.
Fortunately the holiday company has refunded in full (in excess in £5000). The event got cancelled and refunded (and I made a profit on the exchange rate!). Could probably have made an insurance claim if needed to on the event if not cancelled (£300)
Just waiting for flight and car hire refunds for separate trip which are small (about £200 together). Both keep putting off refund. Only options are small claims court or cashback. Insurance would cover car hire (as we cancelled), but not flight (they cancelled) but not worth the excess. No other recourse available.
As far as I am concerned I have got a result, but I can see how others may not be so lucky, having thought they had belt and braces cover.
So one of the protections came through in the end, mostly.
I didn't say there wouldn't be losses - of course there will, particularly where people cancel themselves. I shifted a planned Europe trip for this month and incurred some small extra costs as a consequence, and would have lost some money had I not chosen to gamble by rebooking for the autumn.
It was Big_G's claim that "millions" of people would lose their full holiday costs that I was challenging.
What is going to be essential for any sort of "return to normal" (and it won't be) is a substantial fall in the death rate. Yesterday's figures were highly discouraging in that respect. While Italy, Spain and France have all got themselves in the 200s we are still at 739. I appreciate that this has catch up and may well be more comprehensive etc etc but we are still very high. It will be difficult for the government to make substantial moves until the rate is under 100 a day and even then.... I think its a few weeks away yet although there may be some token gestures in the meantime.
Surely it's the infection rate that matters? If there aren't any new infections the lag of people still ill is irrelevant.
Not much evidence of British stoicism there really, is there?
It is pretty stoic to give up your lifestyle and income to protect your family’s health.
Depends if it means you can sit in your garden instead of the office all summer whilst still getting paid, or you are cooped up in a tiny flat with young kids or are a supermarket delivery driver or shelf stacker having to work in stressful conditions perhaps?
Indeed. If you are cooped up in a flat with no garden but still willing to go through that to protect your family’s health then it really is stoicism.
They aren't "willing" they are obeying. They have no choice. I have no choice.
9% are resisting the lockdown. 44% are struggling but obeying. Only 48% are accepting. So actually, a majority really don't like the lockdown:
Struggling but obeying is stoicism. It is stoic to do the right thing even if it is a personal struggle. If there was no difficulty, no struggle, then there would be nothing stoic about doing it.
The whole point of stoicism is enduring pain without complaining. If you're struggling but still doing it then that is the very definition of stoicism.
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
Hard to think of a company more cynical towards its users than Apple.
Amazon?
What's wrong with Amazon to its users? Amazon has great customer service which is the reason it has such high market share.
I was thinking of the poor souls who have periled their business on their marketplace rather than actual consumers.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
Do you prefer refunds or job losses? How can you be put into financial difficulty from not getting a holiday refund?
I respect the law and the refund is law
Well Big G, we’re out of the EU now. Get your man Boris to sort it out domestically.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
How can they be put into "financial difficulty"? Even in the worst case (which won't happen) they only lose money they would have spent (edit/indeed, had already spent) on a holiday anyway; a holiday they now aren't taking.
They would not have risked their money if it was not protected in the event of cancellation
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
Of course anyone who has a holiday can afford to lose it! They may go and find out it was a rubbish holiday, perhaps because of the weather, travel delays, arguments with those they went with, someone was ill or whatever. It happens every day of the year and always has done. They sadly didnt receive the enjoyment they expected from their holiday, but are not in financial pain because of it. The same applies (to the very few who wont eventually get refunded) here.
What is going to be essential for any sort of "return to normal" (and it won't be) is a substantial fall in the death rate. Yesterday's figures were highly discouraging in that respect. While Italy, Spain and France have all got themselves in the 200s we are still at 739. I appreciate that this has catch up and may well be more comprehensive etc etc but we are still very high. It will be difficult for the government to make substantial moves until the rate is under 100 a day and even then.... I think its a few weeks away yet although there may be some token gestures in the meantime.
The death rate may look slightly worse relative to some other states because of the oft remarked upon differences in counting (and also bear in mind that Spain is a substantially smaller country than the UK,) but the general point is valid. If we get more out of the Government next week than a plan with no fixed dates in it, the reopening of the garden centres and possibly a relaxation of the outdoor exercise rules (i.e. people are allowed out more than once a day) then I would be quite surprised.
Another three week spell of lockdown beyond that takes us approximately to the end of May, and then there ought to be a little more room for manoeuvre.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
Do you prefer refunds or job losses? How can you be put into financial difficulty from not getting a holiday refund?
I respect the law and the refund is law
Given the financials of these companies, bankruptcy law will take over and sadly uninsured/protected holiday makers will be at the back of the queue. It’s horrible to chalk up such a loss, it I don’t see what else can happen. I am not sure it’s one for the taxpayer.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
How can they be put into "financial difficulty"? Even in the worst case (which won't happen) they only lose money they would have spent (edit/indeed, had already spent) on a holiday anyway; a holiday they now aren't taking.
They would not have risked their money if it was not protected in the event of cancellation
Have you been taking lessons from HY on dodging unwelcome questions?
What is going to be essential for any sort of "return to normal" (and it won't be) is a substantial fall in the death rate. Yesterday's figures were highly discouraging in that respect. While Italy, Spain and France have all got themselves in the 200s we are still at 739. I appreciate that this has catch up and may well be more comprehensive etc etc but we are still very high. It will be difficult for the government to make substantial moves until the rate is under 100 a day and even then.... I think its a few weeks away yet although there may be some token gestures in the meantime.
Surely it's the infection rate that matters? If there aren't any new infections the lag of people still ill is irrelevant.
That would indeed be rational (although 6k new cases is hardly good news either) but I suspect that the deaths total will have greater resonance in the public mind.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
I agree and think Mr G is wrong to blame the EU. And as you can see I have/am going thru this loop currently.
The EU have acted appropriately to protect travellers and the industry. The UK has not. See ABTA web site (assuming it hasn't changed since I needed to go there). They are crying out for the Govt to change the rules to help all parties. The stupid thing is there are no costs to these changes.
The EU has acted the UK has not. I posted about this several weeks ago.
But the EU, pushed by Germany and others is about to remove the right to a 14 day cancellation refund plunging millions across europe into chaos
Surely measures to protect the travel industry will, in the long run, reduce the chance of people losing out if it collapses.
The cruising firms - who operate well beyond the reach of the EU - are working to a sixty day refund schedule
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
Hard to think of a company more cynical towards its users than Apple.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
I agree and think Mr G is wrong to blame the EU. And as you can see I have/am going thru this loop currently.
The EU have acted appropriately to protect travellers and the industry. The UK has not. See ABTA web site (assuming it hasn't changed since I needed to go there). They are crying out for the Govt to change the rules to help all parties. The stupid thing is there are no costs to these changes.
The EU has acted the UK has not. I posted about this several weeks ago.
But the EU, pushed by Germany and others is about to remove the right to a 14 day cancellation refund plunging millions across europe into chaos
Because:
a) they can't physically refund them in 14 days b) if they did they would all go bust and you wouldn't get your money anyway (lots aren't ATOL protected) c) ATOL would melt. They actually don't have the funds d) The chaos would be even greater.
See my post of several weeks ago.
Why do you think ABTA are crying out for changes to be made.
Leaving the EU enabled us to make our own rules and the point I made several weeks ago on this topic was that the EU reacted and we did NOTHING even though it cost not a penny to relax the rules and apply some clarity.
If you want your refund in 14 days I suspect the consequence is you will send your supplier bust and will get nothing.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
How can they be put into "financial difficulty"? Even in the worst case (which won't happen) they only lose money they would have spent (edit/indeed, had already spent) on a holiday anyway; a holiday they now aren't taking.
They would not have risked their money if it was not protected in the event of cancellation
Eh? I appreciate that it’s distressing to lose money, but claiming you are put into financial hardship from not getting a refund does not add up.
Anecdotally I know so many people who were previously WFH but are back in the office tomorrow. Once a “normal” working life starts to return, people will question why they can’t socialise, at least to a minimal amount.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
They refunded your premium because you got a refund elsewhere so they could do so. The admin fee deduction was because they could get away with it.
It seems there are technicalities that you don't seem to have grasped which makes accepting the rest of your argument impossible - as if you first 2 statements have nuances you missed the rest of the issue will have nuances you have equally missed.
The insurer rejected my claim for the hotel in Vancouver and returned my premium less 30 % and by the way, is defined in their terms and conditions
My refund from BA was only achieved by dialling the phone for days and even when getting through, waiting an hour and a half for the call to be answered
And as for the Ombudsman it takes months with volumes of paperwork
Believe you me, there is going to be a lot of angst this year over flight and holiday cancellations
I think if this survey was taken again it would be many more people in favour of easing the lockdown. Remember we're around two weeks late to the game so our ability to ensure is 2 weeks behind as well.
Hard to think of a company more cynical towards its users than Apple.
Garmin set the standard for having a bad product, non-existent after sales service and still maintaining a position of market dominance through marketing.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
How can they be put into "financial difficulty"? Even in the worst case (which won't happen) they only lose money they would have spent (edit/indeed, had already spent) on a holiday anyway; a holiday they now aren't taking.
They would not have risked their money if it was not protected in the event of cancellation
I'm not sure if you're deliberately misunderstanding the point? A paid for holiday is (for most people) a luxury item. Paid for out of non-earmarked cash/savings. Unless it was all inclusive with eg. food, that you will now have to buy separately, it by definition cannot cause financial hardship. In fact, objectively for many people it will probably save money because (after the basic costs which have been lost) most people spend more on a daily basis when on holiday - eating out, drinks etc etc.
Losing a paid holiday without receiving a refund is no more going to cause financial hardship on its own (as opposed to not having expected employment that was going to help pay for it) than the holiday happening and it raining every day and not being able to actually engage in any activities.
Anecdotally I know so many people who were previously WFH but are back in the office tomorrow. Once a “normal” working life starts to return, people will question why they can’t socialise, at least to a minimal amount.
Interesting. It's certainly fraying around my way - more traffic and a couple of neighbours had friends/family for drinks and chats in garden yesterday afternoon.
I am not telling you about stoicism. I understand you are not getting what you want and that it is very frustrating for you. I am merely observing that those who are concerned about ending the lockdown are not all cowards. Some are willing to give up a hell of a lot to protect their families. Why is it, do you think, that so many essential workers, who are still out and about and working, are not sending their kids to school even though they can? Is it cowardice?
They now don't have much choice. In my area several schools have now closed for good.
In the public sector? I find that hard to believe.
I'm assuming it's the private sector. Even so, and knowing what I do about the shakiness of private school finances, I find it rather sudden. I was thinking half term would be the crunch point. It's seriously bad news for Hampshire's education system if several have gone bust this abruptly.
I’m very proud of my old school at the moment. They’ve just decided to donate £100 million to support sixth form state education. (They’ve always been focused on their charitable mission which is to educate young men to serve the church and the state)
I have an old school friend who had a senior position at a successful British based cruise firm. He is furloughed with no immediate prospect of returning to work. If the company goes bankrupt that will be that. He and many others will experience genuine financial hardship.
I am hugely sympathetic to those narked that they aren’t getting refunds on their holidays. It’s a pain in the arse to write off a loss or to wrangle a bureaucracy. But to claim that equates to financial hardship is a worrying lack of perspective given the tidal wave about to hit us.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Must admit I'm baffled by this. Even if you get nothing back it is frustrating and irritating but not financial ruin or armageddon. Presumably those who paid could afford the holiday in the first place unless they borrowed to pay for it which is reckless. Given you are spared the additional expense of spending when on holiday and also saving a lot of other discretionary spending while on lockdown - yes it's a hardship but not compard to those in danger of losing jobs, etc.
Just for clarity as I seem to be having what appears to be 2 opposite arguments with Ian and Big G.
a) I generally agree with what Ian has posted except I do think lots will lose money on their holidays because of cracks in the cover and bureaucracy, but this is Covid 19 so it has to be expected.
b) I do not agree with Big G's posts except as in point a) above and to blame the EU which has at least has acted to protect consumers and the industry (unlike the UK) is to my mind bizarre.
Big G - Not getting your refund in 14 days is not the end of the world. I am still waiting for 2 refunds for events that should have occurred 5 weeks ago. Normally I would be chasing, but what is the point? Give them a break for a while and maybe we will get it. Hassle them for it and they will go under and it will be gone.
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
Hard to think of a company more cynical towards its users than Apple.
Ryanair? Tobacco firms? Sports Direct? Sky/BT?
Not very hard at all
I am quite impressed with Sky during this, they have suspended the Sky Sports subscription and last month refunded part of the previous months subscription too.
Ryanair have the most unbelievable business model in that al their staff hate them, all their customers hate them yet they have made huge profits over the years.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
How does not going on a paid holiday put you into economic hardship? I don’t get it. I imagine you might be fed up and sad, but not financially worse off.
You are financially worse off if you booked the holiday knowing it was backed by insurance and 14 day refunds if supplier cancels and then both fail in their duty to act in accordance with statue
You would not book the holiday if these safeguard were not in place.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
How can they be put into "financial difficulty"? Even in the worst case (which won't happen) they only lose money they would have spent (edit/indeed, had already spent) on a holiday anyway; a holiday they now aren't taking.
They would not have risked their money if it was not protected in the event of cancellation
Eh? I appreciate that it’s distressing to lose money, but claiming you are put into financial hardship from not getting a refund does not add up.
Especially as you are actually better off as a result of a cancelled holiday, you may have not paid the whole cost in advance and won't need the spending money. It's not as if you can re-spend the money on another holiday. Yes you haven't had what you've paid for but you are not actually worse off. Obviously some people will have lost all or some of their income and could do with the money, but in general it seems to me to be something you can wait for.
All this talk of bravery and cowardice is unhelpful, but then I discovered that the Archers is off the air for three weeks. 😱
Probably for the best. The entire absence of the virus from Ambridge is getting weird, there's bucolic fantasy and then there's bollocks from another planet.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Why do you keep trying to turn the debate to the EU? You're turning into Alastair's mirror image.
Insurers have changed their terms going forward, but are paying on existing bookings. The doubt I heard in the media concerned business interruption insurance, which is a different matter.
Yes, companies are trying to encourage people to take enhanced credit rather than a refund. But they cant remove the right to a refund. And there are examples in the travel industry already of future credit being honoured even after bankruptcy.
The one that is interesting for me is the insurance companies claiming that “pandemic” only relates to a defined list of diseases. I wonder how that will stand up to a plain English test
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
How does not going on a paid holiday put you into economic hardship? I don’t get it. I imagine you might be fed up and sad, but not financially worse off.
You are financially worse off if you booked the holiday knowing it was backed by insurance and 14 day refunds if supplier cancels and then both fail in their duty to act in accordance with statue
You would not book the holiday if these safeguard were not in place.
You may as well put your money on a horse
You're worse off yes, but not in hardship.
Everyone will be worse off due to this. 'We're all in this together'
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
How can they be put into "financial difficulty"? Even in the worst case (which won't happen) they only lose money they would have spent (edit/indeed, had already spent) on a holiday anyway; a holiday they now aren't taking.
They would not have risked their money if it was not protected in the event of cancellation
Have you been taking lessons from HY on dodging unwelcome questions?
Not at all. Do you think I would book a £6,000 holiday without the protection safeguards in the travel industry.
Would anyone book an expensive holiday without them
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
How can they be put into "financial difficulty"? Even in the worst case (which won't happen) they only lose money they would have spent (edit/indeed, had already spent) on a holiday anyway; a holiday they now aren't taking.
They would not have risked their money if it was not protected in the event of cancellation
Eh? I appreciate that it’s distressing to lose money, but claiming you are put into financial hardship from not getting a refund does not add up.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
How does not going on a paid holiday put you into economic hardship? I don’t get it. I imagine you might be fed up and sad, but not financially worse off.
You are financially worse off if you booked the holiday knowing it was backed by insurance and 14 day refunds if supplier cancels and then both fail in their duty to act in accordance with statue
You would not book the holiday if these safeguard were not in place.
You may as well put your money on a horse
You spent the money when you bought the product. Holidays are not investments.
Morning all. I think it would be quite difficult socially to oppose the lockdown in a straightforward question in a polling scenario. It would seem like undermining the NHS. Shy lockdown opposers. To get a true answer you'd have to ask it in a more roundabout way.
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
Hard to think of a company more cynical towards its users than Apple.
Ryanair? Tobacco firms? Sports Direct? Sky/BT?
Not very hard at all
I am quite impressed with Sky during this, they have suspended the Sky Sports subscription and last month refunded part of the previous months subscription too.
Ryanair have the most unbelievable business model in that al their staff hate them, all their customers hate them yet they have made huge profits over the years.
I put Sky/BT on the list for their practice of offering the service for £20pm to those willing to play the game yet charging £80pm for exactly the same service to those who just want a quiet life.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
Do you prefer refunds or job losses? How can you be put into financial difficulty from not getting a holiday refund?
I respect the law and the refund is law
Well Big G, we’re out of the EU now. Get your man Boris to sort it out domestically.
Once we have left the EU, HMG will be responsible for this issue but this is an active issue now under transistion
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
How does not going on a paid holiday put you into economic hardship? I don’t get it. I imagine you might be fed up and sad, but not financially worse off.
You are financially worse off if you booked the holiday knowing it was backed by insurance and 14 day refunds if supplier cancels and then both fail in their duty to act in accordance with statue
You would not book the holiday if these safeguard were not in place.
You may as well put your money on a horse
Life sometimes shits on you. But in this case the whining and wailing over a lost holiday deposit is becoming unedifying in the greater scheme of things.
Hard to think of a company more cynical towards its users than Apple.
Garmin set the standard for having a bad product, non-existent after sales service and still maintaining a position of market dominance through marketing.
End stage Laverda probably up there, minus the market dominance of course.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
How does not going on a paid holiday put you into economic hardship? I don’t get it. I imagine you might be fed up and sad, but not financially worse off.
You are financially worse off if you booked the holiday knowing it was backed by insurance and 14 day refunds if supplier cancels and then both fail in their duty to act in accordance with statue
You would not book the holiday if these safeguard were not in place.
You may as well put your money on a horse
The cost of an (already paid for) holiday is a sunk cost. You are not "financially worse off" (in a 'causing hardship' sense) if you are not refunded. In you do however receive a refund you are financially better off. You can spend the money on something else. For example, a different holiday. A holiday is a luxury. There is no requirement to spend money on one.
But then everyone's making the same point, and you are completely unable to see the wood for the trees. It's all about your statutory rights and that's it. Statutory rights that were hardly designed for the current situation. Yes some companies might be pushing the boundaries. Others are just fighting for survival. But as long as you can take the moral highground and demanding your right to refund. Me, me, me.
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
I mean Apple TV+ has always been primarily for those in the Apple ecosystem. I watch it on an Apple TV or my iPad and it works great.
I don’t think Apple are bothered if those who watch it in Firefox on an old Toshiba laptop can no longer do so.
Oh I get that. I had zero interest in Apple TV until a friend recommended I dig out For All Mankind (ep 1 is fabulous, lets see how it pans out). Which is an Apple TV original for some reason. So I decide I will sign on to the trial to watch it. That they make the interface so appalling just guarantees that I will watch the trial only and then bin it. As for actually buy an Apple device so that I can enjoy the way Apple do stuff? No thanks...
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
Do you prefer refunds or job losses? How can you be put into financial difficulty from not getting a holiday refund?
I respect the law and the refund is law
Well Big G, we’re out of the EU now. Get your man Boris to sort it out domestically.
Once we have left the EU, HMG will be responsible for this issue but this is an active issue now under transistion
HMG could guarantee the refunds if they wanted to, don’t fall into the trap for blaming the EU for domestic inaction.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
How does not going on a paid holiday put you into economic hardship? I don’t get it. I imagine you might be fed up and sad, but not financially worse off.
You are financially worse off if you booked the holiday knowing it was backed by insurance and 14 day refunds if supplier cancels and then both fail in their duty to act in accordance with statue
You would not book the holiday if these safeguard were not in place.
You may as well put your money on a horse
I do not know what horses you back but those I back dont seem to provide:
1) a holiday 95-99% of the time when things go well 2) a refund 90% of the 1-5% of times when things go wrong due to once a century pandemics, firms going bust etc
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
Do you prefer refunds or job losses? How can you be put into financial difficulty from not getting a holiday refund?
I respect the law and the refund is law
Well Big G, we’re out of the EU now. Get your man Boris to sort it out domestically.
Once we have left the EU, HMG will be responsible for this issue but this is an active issue now under transistion
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
How can they be put into "financial difficulty"? Even in the worst case (which won't happen) they only lose money they would have spent (edit/indeed, had already spent) on a holiday anyway; a holiday they now aren't taking.
They would not have risked their money if it was not protected in the event of cancellation
Eh? I appreciate that it’s distressing to lose money, but claiming you are put into financial hardship from not getting a refund does not add up.
I am not claiming financial hardship
‘Financial pain’ and ‘financial difficulty’ were the terms you used.
A cursory look through the media gives the explanation for the figures above.
Almost nothing on the enormous economic damage we are doing to our country, and the extremely hard times we face ahead.
I suspect many Britons think lock down is almost a consequence free policy. When they choose to go back to work, their job and their living standards will be waiting there for them.
The enormous propaganda effort to emphasise the threat of this virus, backed by the media, has also vastly exaggerated the danger of this disease to healthy people. I suspect your average Briton's image of it is a gross distortion of the truth. It is a disease that, cruelly, overwhelmingly kills aged people who are sick and frail.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
How does not going on a paid holiday put you into economic hardship? I don’t get it. I imagine you might be fed up and sad, but not financially worse off.
You are financially worse off if you booked the holiday knowing it was backed by insurance and 14 day refunds if supplier cancels and then both fail in their duty to act in accordance with statue
You would not book the holiday if these safeguard were not in place.
You may as well put your money on a horse
I get it! You were never actually intending to go on this holiday in the first place! You've booked twenty simultaneous holidays in advance and were intending to cancel 19 of them. You're like the person who goes clothes shopping every week, buys a new item of clothing every week, but takes 90% of it back!
What is going to be essential for any sort of "return to normal" (and it won't be) is a substantial fall in the death rate. Yesterday's figures were highly discouraging in that respect. While Italy, Spain and France have all got themselves in the 200s we are still at 739. I appreciate that this has catch up and may well be more comprehensive etc etc but we are still very high. It will be difficult for the government to make substantial moves until the rate is under 100 a day and even then.... I think its a few weeks away yet although there may be some token gestures in the meantime.
Surely it's the infection rate that matters? If there aren't any new infections the lag of people still ill is irrelevant.
Surely both matter, and the death rate per capita is much easier to estimate than the infection rate.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
Do you prefer refunds or job losses? How can you be put into financial difficulty from not getting a holiday refund?
I respect the law and the refund is law
Well Big G, we’re out of the EU now. Get your man Boris to sort it out domestically.
Once we have left the EU, HMG will be responsible for this issue but this is an active issue now under transistion
No it is not. See ABTA web site re Covid.
From the ABTA web site:
In many other countries, governments have taken action to temporarily amend their travel regulations and provide additional guidance....
We have sought urgent Government help to ensure the rules around refunds are fit for purpose .....
In the absence of this Government intervention, and to provide some order to a chaotic situation brought about by the current crisis, ABTA has developed guidance framework.....
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
How does not going on a paid holiday put you into economic hardship? I don’t get it. I imagine you might be fed up and sad, but not financially worse off.
You are financially worse off if you booked the holiday knowing it was backed by insurance and 14 day refunds if supplier cancels and then both fail in their duty to act in accordance with statue
You would not book the holiday if these safeguard were not in place.
You may as well put your money on a horse
I get it! You were never actually intending to go on this holiday in the first place! You've booked twenty simultaneous holidays in advance and were intending to cancel 19 of them. You're like the person who goes clothes shopping every week, buys a new item of clothing every week, but takes 90% of it back!
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
Do you prefer refunds or job losses? How can you be put into financial difficulty from not getting a holiday refund?
I respect the law and the refund is law
Well Big G, we’re out of the EU now. Get your man Boris to sort it out domestically.
Once we have left the EU, HMG will be responsible for this issue but this is an active issue now under transistion
No it is not. See ABTA web site re Covid.
From the ABTA web site:
In many other countries, governments have taken action to temporarily amend their travel regulations and provide additional guidance....
We have sought urgent Government help to ensure the rules around refunds are fit for purpose .....
In the absence of this Government intervention, and to provide some order to a chaotic situation brought about by the current crisis, ABTA has developed guidance framework.....
We have requested urgent support from the UK Government to introduce temporary rules that are fit for purpose in the current situation, to help protect customer rights while preventing an industry-wide collapse of travel businesses, which would place a huge burden on the UK taxpayer and lead to months of delays in processing refunds.
The European Commission has advised Member states to find “flexible solutions” to demands for refunds on cancelled holidays during the Covid-19 crisis. Many other countries including France, Italy, Belgium, Spain, Germany, The Netherlands and Denmark have taken action to temporarily amend their laws and provide additional guidance. These new measures will help protect customer rights and provide clear guidance, while ensuring travel companies have a chance of surviving beyond the current crisis. You can find out more about what other countries are doing....
A cursory look through the media gives the explanation for the figures above.
Almost nothing on the enormous economic damage we are doing to our country, and the extremely hard times we face ahead.
I suspect many Britons think lock down is almost a consequence free policy. When they choose to go back to work, their job and their living standards will be waiting there for them.
The enormous propaganda effort to emphasise the threat of this virus, backed by the media, has also vastly exaggerated the danger of this disease to healthy people. I suspect your average Briton's image of it is a gross distortion of the truth. It is a disease that, cruelly, overwhelmingly kills aged people who are sick and frail.
What evidence do you have that containing the virus with a weeks-long lockdown is doing more economic damage than letting it run rampant?
Once again the 1920 pandemic wiped over 20% off our GDP on nominal figures and meant we didn't reach the same GDP on nominal figures for two decades until WWII started.
I think we will do better economically this time than we did this time a century ago. What say you?
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
How does not going on a paid holiday put you into economic hardship? I don’t get it. I imagine you might be fed up and sad, but not financially worse off.
You are financially worse off if you booked the holiday knowing it was backed by insurance and 14 day refunds if supplier cancels and then both fail in their duty to act in accordance with statue
You would not book the holiday if these safeguard were not in place.
You may as well put your money on a horse
You are not financially worse off. The money in your bank account is the same - probably higher as you avoided holiday spending. You're probably financially better off.
You are a holiday worse off. You didn't get your holiday. Nothing to do with finance. All to do with enjoyment and satisfaction.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Must admit I'm baffled by this. Even if you get nothing back it is frustrating and irritating but not financial ruin or armageddon. Presumably those who paid could afford the holiday in the first place unless they borrowed to pay for it which is reckless. Given you are spared the additional expense of spending when on holiday and also saving a lot of other discretionary spending while on lockdown - yes it's a hardship but not compard to those in danger of losing jobs, etc.
I do agree with you.
It is not financial hardship but it is a loss you should be entitled to recover in full
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Why do you keep trying to turn the debate to the EU? You're turning into Alastair's mirror image.
Insurers have changed their terms going forward, but are paying on existing bookings. The doubt I heard in the media concerned business interruption insurance, which is a different matter.
Yes, companies are trying to encourage people to take enhanced credit rather than a refund. But they cant remove the right to a refund. And there are examples in the travel industry already of future credit being honoured even after bankruptcy.
The one that is interesting for me is the insurance companies claiming that “pandemic” only relates to a defined list of diseases. I wonder how that will stand up to a plain English test
As I stated earlier I suspect (and know) the insurance ombudsman would be given that very short shrift.
All this talk of bravery and cowardice is unhelpful, but then I discovered that the Archers is off the air for three weeks. 😱
Probably for the best. The entire absence of the virus from Ambridge is getting weird, there's bucolic fantasy and then there's bollocks from another planet.
Why is it going off the air? Seems a prime candidate for carrying on - as indeed farms must carry on. A good way to explore the lockdown dramatically. An odd decision by the BBC.
All this talk of bravery and cowardice is unhelpful, but then I discovered that the Archers is off the air for three weeks. 😱
Probably for the best. The entire absence of the virus from Ambridge is getting weird, there's bucolic fantasy and then there's bollocks from another planet.
I've never listened to the show so can't comment too much on it but how common is the virus in farming villages?
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
Being a Name (on Lloyds) is a bit of a downer.
Lloyds Names take on low probability high exposure risk. Someone who becomes a Name without being able to stay solvent when something goes wrong is a fool.
What is going to be essential for any sort of "return to normal" (and it won't be) is a substantial fall in the death rate. Yesterday's figures were highly discouraging in that respect. While Italy, Spain and France have all got themselves in the 200s we are still at 739. I appreciate that this has catch up and may well be more comprehensive etc etc but we are still very high. It will be difficult for the government to make substantial moves until the rate is under 100 a day and even then.... I think its a few weeks away yet although there may be some token gestures in the meantime.
I thought we were running at an average of around 300 a day now?
We are. In England (and hospital-based), anyway; that's the most up-to-date data.
Thanks to the latency between infection-symptom-hospitalisation-death (which was so frustrating on the run up to the peak), we've already baked in further falls in the death rate, for 15-20 days from today, even if (implausibly) all restrictions were to evaporate tomorrow and everyone instantly revert to their old habits with no fear.
Of course, 15-20 days later, the death rate would start to increase exponentially again in that unlikely scenario.
We should be down to sub-200 per day on our current trajectory by 15-20 days, anyway. Based on another couple of weeks information gained from the countries ahead of us in this disease and what restrictions they've lifted and what the outcome of that will have been (as the hospitalisation rates will be useful data), we'll have a fairly decent idea of what restrictions can be lifted without going back over and Rt of 1.0
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Re your first paragraph suggesting millions of families can afford to lose their holiday probably costing thousands is nonsense
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
How does not going on a paid holiday put you into economic hardship? I don’t get it. I imagine you might be fed up and sad, but not financially worse off.
You are financially worse off if you booked the holiday knowing it was backed by insurance and 14 day refunds if supplier cancels and then both fail in their duty to act in accordance with statue
You would not book the holiday if these safeguard were not in place.
You may as well put your money on a horse
The cost of an (already paid for) holiday is a sunk cost. You are not "financially worse off" (in a 'causing hardship' sense) if you are not refunded. In you do however receive a refund you are financially better off. You can spend the money on something else. For example, a different holiday. A holiday is a luxury. There is no requirement to spend money on one.
But then everyone's making the same point, and you are completely unable to see the wood for the trees. It's all about your statutory rights and that's it. Statutory rights that were hardly designed for the current situation. Yes some companies might be pushing the boundaries. Others are just fighting for survival. But as long as you can take the moral highground and demanding your right to refund. Me, me, me.
The thing is I have my refund from BA
It does not effect me
I am making a case for the many ordinary families who face losing the cost of their holiday when they thought they were insured
That is a reasonable ascertion as far as I am concerned
And for the benefit of doubt I agree it does not equate to financial hardship, and ifvI gave that impression I am sorry
All this talk of bravery and cowardice is unhelpful, but then I discovered that the Archers is off the air for three weeks. 😱
Probably for the best. The entire absence of the virus from Ambridge is getting weird, there's bucolic fantasy and then there's bollocks from another planet.
I've never listened to the show so can't comment too much on it but how common is the virus in farming villages?
There is no social distancing though! I'm struggling to think how they could make the programme if nobody actually ever met anyone else. Wouldn't be riveting (I know 99% wouldn't think it less so anyway).
A cursory look through the media gives the explanation for the figures above.
Almost nothing on the enormous economic damage we are doing to our country, and the extremely hard times we face ahead.
I suspect many Britons think lock down is almost a consequence free policy. When they choose to go back to work, their job and their living standards will be waiting there for them.
The enormous propaganda effort to emphasise the threat of this virus, backed by the media, has also vastly exaggerated the danger of this disease to healthy people. I suspect your average Briton's image of it is a gross distortion of the truth. It is a disease that, cruelly, overwhelmingly kills aged people who are sick and frail.
Yes, the lockdown will be more damaging than the virus. Not just economically but socially and to physical and mental health. It is disgraceful but unsurprising how unquestioned it has been by the media. What I find quite ironic is that those who were most vociferous about the economic c dangers of Brexit are generally those most rabidly in favour of measures which are destroying the economy is undreamed of ways.
Two points. Firstly, this comparison across nations does not allow for differences in the respective government`s financial aid packages. For example, is Italy`s as generous as Sunak`s? Secondly, the respondents are likely to envisage "their" lockdown as being accompanied by financial aid. If their income stopped their support for lockdown would likely stop too. This key point isn`t captured in the question that was asked.
All this talk of bravery and cowardice is unhelpful, but then I discovered that the Archers is off the air for three weeks. 😱
Probably for the best. The entire absence of the virus from Ambridge is getting weird, there's bucolic fantasy and then there's bollocks from another planet.
Why is it going off the air? Seems a prime candidate for carrying on - as indeed farms must carry on. A good way to explore the lockdown dramatically. An odd decision by the BBC.
The programmes are recorded, roughly 6 to 8 weeks in advance. That means the recordings have hit the start of the lockdown, and WFH with Zoom can work for interviews but not for a drama programme.
This also explains why there was nothing about the Corona Virus on the archers. The scripts are written even further in advance. The writers of all soap operas stay away from rapidly changing news stories.
Things that I have paid for but won’t be getting any time soon:
4 Arsenal home games 2 Arsenal away games (Brighton and Sheff Utd) A day at The Open Golf Championship 2 weekly passes to The BMW PGA Championship Tickets to both Fridays of the Lords test matches
That lot comes to something like £700, but I’m not bothered at all.
The bigger issue is that nobody is going to booking any more tickets, holidays etc. for the foreseeable future. At the moment there is inertia in many parts of the economy, but eventually consumer behaviour will start to impact on the wider economy. Then we’ll see how people feel about managing the risks of the virus.
All this talk of bravery and cowardice is unhelpful, but then I discovered that the Archers is off the air for three weeks. 😱
Probably for the best. The entire absence of the virus from Ambridge is getting weird, there's bucolic fantasy and then there's bollocks from another planet.
Why is it going off the air? Seems a prime candidate for carrying on - as indeed farms must carry on. A good way to explore the lockdown dramatically. An odd decision by the BBC.
Isn't the Archers used as a vehicle for government propaganda? Perhaps this is the BBC getting back at the Johnson regime for dissing them by not offering up cabinet members for interviews with routine humiliation at the hands of Nick Robinson et al?
All this talk of bravery and cowardice is unhelpful, but then I discovered that the Archers is off the air for three weeks. 😱
Probably for the best. The entire absence of the virus from Ambridge is getting weird, there's bucolic fantasy and then there's bollocks from another planet.
I've never listened to the show so can't comment too much on it but how common is the virus in farming villages?
There is no social distancing though! I'm struggling to think how they could make the programme if nobody actually ever met anyone else. Wouldn't be riveting (I know 99% wouldn't think it less so anyway).
You’d still have the domestic abuse / break-up / lesbian affair / racial attack story lines that the BBC believes are commonplace in farming communities
All this talk of bravery and cowardice is unhelpful, but then I discovered that the Archers is off the air for three weeks. 😱
Probably for the best. The entire absence of the virus from Ambridge is getting weird, there's bucolic fantasy and then there's bollocks from another planet.
Why is it going off the air? Seems a prime candidate for carrying on - as indeed farms must carry on. A good way to explore the lockdown dramatically. An odd decision by the BBC.
Think the plan is to take 3 weeks off while they rewrite the long-term story plan and sort out the logistics of recording from home and making it sound good.
I wonder if we are overestimating the lasting lifestyle changes from this. Poorer, yes, with the hit to the economy, but otherwise? Not so sure. I often like, if I can, to lose the nuance and get binary, and I think it's useful to do that here. Vaccine available next year. Vaccine administered at scale. Covid neutered. Back to normal. Thanks for the memories. I see no compelling reason why this is not the sequence which plays out. It's only a new disease, not a world war or a transformational invention such as the internet. There's nothing particularly radical about it. Once it's back in its box, through vaccination and/or treatment advances, why do we not go back to essentially what we were doing before - trying unsuccessfully to square the circle of generating sufficient economic growth to meet people's material needs and aspirations without destroying the planet. I think we probably do.
Over what timescale do you see things returning to normal?
I'm thinking - under this hypothesis - that we will be celebrating (or enduring) Christmas 2021 in a world that looks broadly like it did last Christmas, apart from the economic malaise. Of course that in itself is a big difference. I haven't read your Header yet, though, I'm just about to, so perhaps I'll be changing my mind shortly.
Does anyone know how to contact HMRC to report a company abusing the furlough by asking employees to answer emails and speak to clients.
Depends on the context, if its just answering an email to say "Im on furlough please contact x or it will be dealt with when Im back" that seems within the spirit of the furlough scheme, but if its ongoing significant work then this seems to be the place to go:
A cursory look through the media gives the explanation for the figures above.
Almost nothing on the enormous economic damage we are doing to our country, and the extremely hard times we face ahead.
I suspect many Britons think lock down is almost a consequence free policy. When they choose to go back to work, their job and their living standards will be waiting there for them.
The enormous propaganda effort to emphasise the threat of this virus, backed by the media, has also vastly exaggerated the danger of this disease to healthy people. I suspect your average Briton's image of it is a gross distortion of the truth. It is a disease that, cruelly, overwhelmingly kills aged people who are sick and frail.
Yes, the lockdown will be more damaging than the virus. Not just economically but socially and to physical and mental health. It is disgraceful but unsurprising how unquestioned it has been by the media. What I find quite ironic is that those who were most vociferous about the economic c dangers of Brexit are generally those most rabidly in favour of measures which are destroying the economy is undreamed of ways.
MarqueeMark nicely summed up the media response in his 9:21 post this morning.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
Being a Name (on Lloyds) is a bit of a downer.
Lloyds Names take on low probability high exposure risk. Someone who becomes a Name without being able to stay solvent when something goes wrong is a fool.
AIUI all your assets are on the line if you're a Name, so the odds of insolvency are part of the calculation.
Does anyone know how to contact HMRC to report a company abusing the furlough by asking employees to answer emails and speak to clients.
Depends on the context, if its just answering an email to say "Im on furlough please contact x or it will be dealt with when Im back" that seems within the spirit of the furlough scheme, but if its ongoing significant work then this seems to be the place to go:
That should be information on the out of office response set up either by the employee or by IT within the company. It shouldn't require human interaction.
The only work any person who has been furloughed should be doing is statutory requirements where the person a director of the company (for which their is an explicit clause within the furlough terms and conditions).
Mildly surprised my tax return hasn't come through yet. Doesn't matter, at the moment, as I need some information I won't get for a while in order to complete it, but slightly surprised (I was expecting a slight delay as I imagine HMRC is quite busy right now).
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
I agree and think Mr G is wrong to blame the EU. And as you can see I have/am going thru this loop currently.
The EU have acted appropriately to protect travellers and the industry. The UK has not. See ABTA web site (assuming it hasn't changed since I needed to go there). They are crying out for the Govt to change the rules to help all parties. The stupid thing is there are no costs to these changes.
The EU has acted the UK has not. I posted about this several weeks ago.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
Being a Name (on Lloyds) is a bit of a downer.
Lloyds Names take on low probability high exposure risk. Someone who becomes a Name without being able to stay solvent when something goes wrong is a fool.
As I said before, there are hardly any individual Names left - most of the capital has been corporate-based for decades - but this isn't really true anyway. Most of the time, being a Name is an investment that should deliver a return most years, and positive in the long run, but with pretty volatile experience along the way. There is also the potential for some very large losses, but generally it should look like an investment in early stage companies.
The big difference was the unlimited personal liability, which meant that, technically, "being able to stay solvent when something goes wrong" wasn't actually possible. Fortunately, this is now mostly a relic of a bygone age since Equitas.
A cursory look through the media gives the explanation for the figures above.
Almost nothing on the enormous economic damage we are doing to our country, and the extremely hard times we face ahead.
I suspect many Britons think lock down is almost a consequence free policy. When they choose to go back to work, their job and their living standards will be waiting there for them.
The enormous propaganda effort to emphasise the threat of this virus, backed by the media, has also vastly exaggerated the danger of this disease to healthy people. I suspect your average Briton's image of it is a gross distortion of the truth. It is a disease that, cruelly, overwhelmingly kills aged people who are sick and frail.
What evidence do you have that containing the virus with a weeks-long lockdown is doing more economic damage than letting it run rampant?
Once again the 1920 pandemic wiped over 20% off our GDP on nominal figures and meant we didn't reach the same GDP on nominal figures for two decades until WWII started.
I think we will do better economically this time than we did this time a century ago. What say you?
Look I accept we were always going to take a big hit. There was no way we couldn't. Even I would have forgiven the government a month lock down to help the NHS co-ordinate its response.
Its the length and nature of the lockdown that I think will in time be shwn to be a grievous mistake. But you're right of course, that's just my view. We may recover quickly. Only time will tell.
All this talk of bravery and cowardice is unhelpful, but then I discovered that the Archers is off the air for three weeks. 😱
Probably for the best. The entire absence of the virus from Ambridge is getting weird, there's bucolic fantasy and then there's bollocks from another planet.
Why is it going off the air? Seems a prime candidate for carrying on - as indeed farms must carry on. A good way to explore the lockdown dramatically. An odd decision by the BBC.
The programmes are recorded, roughly 6 to 8 weeks in advance. That means the recordings have hit the start of the lockdown, and WFH with Zoom can work for interviews but not for a drama programme.
This also explains why there was nothing about the Corona Virus on the archers. The scripts are written even further in advance. The writers of all soap operas stay away from rapidly changing news stories.
As a followup, I listen to a radio programm, where each week a different person is invited to introduce their favourite songs and why. It is like Desert Island Disks without the boring interview questions, and most guests have interesting stories to tell about the music.
*This* week I noticed that the guest spoke with a reasonable quality mike but with reverberation on the audio. The guest was clearly speaking from home, where as normally the guests have gone to a proper studio. Again this fits in with the 6-8 week lead in preparing broadcast programmes
Does anyone know how to contact HMRC to report a company abusing the furlough by asking employees to answer emails and speak to clients.
Depends on the context, if its just answering an email to say "Im on furlough please contact x or it will be dealt with when Im back" that seems within the spirit of the furlough scheme, but if its ongoing significant work then this seems to be the place to go:
That should be information on the out of office response set up either by the employee or by IT within the company. It shouldn't require human interaction.
The only work any person who has been furloughed should be doing is statutory requirements where the person a director of the company (for which their is an explicit clause within the furlough terms and conditions).
Legally Id agree with you, thats why I chose the words within the spirit of the scheme.
Reporting someone for that because they are disorganised/ineffective seems very excessive, reporting someone deliberately and fraudulently claiming furlough money whilst asking people to do significant work is different.
Does anyone know how to contact HMRC to report a company abusing the furlough by asking employees to answer emails and speak to clients.
Depends on the context, if its just answering an email to say "Im on furlough please contact x or it will be dealt with when Im back" that seems within the spirit of the furlough scheme, but if its ongoing significant work then this seems to be the place to go:
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
How can they be put into "financial difficulty"? Even in the worst case (which won't happen) they only lose money they would have spent (edit/indeed, had already spent) on a holiday anyway; a holiday they now aren't taking.
They would not have risked their money if it was not protected in the event of cancellation
Have you been taking lessons from HY on dodging unwelcome questions?
Not at all. Do you think I would book a £6,000 holiday without the protection safeguards in the travel industry.
Would anyone book an expensive holiday without them
I successfully protect myself from risk by buying cheap flights and booking hotels on a free-cancellation basis. I spent about £100 extra on my Cyprus holiday as a result of Covid and Ryanair owe me £58 for a flight next weekend. I hadn't actually spent any money on my Russian holiday I was planning, and the only hotel bookings are on free cancellation. I'm not sure anything would induce me to shell out six grand in advance, even if I could afford it. People have to take some responsibility for risk. Booking.com refunded me for my Dutch hotel, and Premier Inn for the one over Manchester Marathon weekend, but I had paid for both on a non-refundable basis and I would have accepted not getting the money back.
All this talk of bravery and cowardice is unhelpful, but then I discovered that the Archers is off the air for three weeks. 😱
Probably for the best. The entire absence of the virus from Ambridge is getting weird, there's bucolic fantasy and then there's bollocks from another planet.
Why is it going off the air? Seems a prime candidate for carrying on - as indeed farms must carry on. A good way to explore the lockdown dramatically. An odd decision by the BBC.
The programmes are recorded, roughly 6 to 8 weeks in advance. That means the recordings have hit the start of the lockdown, and WFH with Zoom can work for interviews but not for a drama programme.
This also explains why there was nothing about the Corona Virus on the archers. The scripts are written even further in advance. The writers of all soap operas stay away from rapidly changing news stories.
Thanks for that - I suspected as much with the time-lag. I am not sure it's impossible to record a drama separately though - it is only sound and there must be a lot they can do.
Does anyone know how to contact HMRC to report a company abusing the furlough by asking employees to answer emails and speak to clients.
Depends on the context, if its just answering an email to say "Im on furlough please contact x or it will be dealt with when Im back" that seems within the spirit of the furlough scheme, but if its ongoing significant work then this seems to be the place to go:
That should be information on the out of office response set up either by the employee or by IT within the company. It shouldn't require human interaction.
The only work any person who has been furloughed should be doing is statutory requirements where the person a director of the company (for which their is an explicit clause within the furlough terms and conditions).
Legally Id agree with you, thats why I chose the words within the spirit of the scheme.
Reporting someone for that because they are disorganised/ineffective seems very excessive, reporting someone deliberately and fraudulently claiming furlough money whilst asking people to do significant work is different.
If someone is complaining about a company or competitor abusing the scheme I suspect it's more than a bit of disorganisation.
A cursory look through the media gives the explanation for the figures above.
Almost nothing on the enormous economic damage we are doing to our country, and the extremely hard times we face ahead.
I suspect many Britons think lock down is almost a consequence free policy. When they choose to go back to work, their job and their living standards will be waiting there for them.
The enormous propaganda effort to emphasise the threat of this virus, backed by the media, has also vastly exaggerated the danger of this disease to healthy people. I suspect your average Briton's image of it is a gross distortion of the truth. It is a disease that, cruelly, overwhelmingly kills aged people who are sick and frail.
There are of course plenty of people who have a very realistic picture of the virus and are accordingly cautious out of concern for others who are sick and frail - not themselves. It isn't just about risk to you personally that informs rational decisions.
We do have a distorted view of what 'healthy' is though - I'll say that much. The priority shouldn't be to scare healthy people but to nudge the unhealthy ones who are otherwise kidding themselves they're not at risk.
Comments
Pandemics are traditionally a standard exclusion on virtually all insurance policies. However, the industry is currently realising that this wasn't as clear in the policy wording as it could have been, and there are a number of cases where they have a choice between paying out and risking insolvency, or contesting coverage and risking huge reputational damage. It's worth bearing in mind that the media are downright terrible at getting the facts straight when reporting complicated (or even simple) arguments about financial products small print, although I don't doubt there are areas where the insurers are abusing their position.
On travel insurance specifically: certainly cancellation due to a pandemic wasn't ever intended to be covered generally, as travel insurance primarily exists to cover healthcare costs if caught ill whilst abroad. However, the problem is how the policies are sold: typically marketed on price alone, and sold as an add-on to things like flights, or package holidays, or free with bank accounts. Policyholders often don't know what they've bought, and assume it covers all forms of loss to them related to their holiday. This is part of a wider problem, whereby the public are no longer expected to understand what they've signed up to, and the longstanding principle of caveat emptor is effectively dead. So this has long been an accident waiting to happen, and the insurance industry is going to get it in the neck, even if they're technically in the right.
I don’t think Apple are bothered if those who watch it in Firefox on an old Toshiba laptop can no longer do so.
Your second paragraphs demonstrates how little you know over the current state of obtaining refunds in the travel industry.
I should know, I have just beennp through the whole process and it is a nightmare
My 3 year old iPhone keeps going strong, and will have software updates and the latest features for probably another 3 years at least. Apple will also replace the battery for £30 to facilitate this.
The Apple hatred is overblown as usual.
The whole point of stoicism is enduring pain without complaining. If you're struggling but still doing it then that is the very definition of stoicism.
Another three week spell of lockdown beyond that takes us approximately to the end of May, and then there ought to be a little more room for manoeuvre.
The cruising firms - who operate well beyond the reach of the EU - are working to a sixty day refund schedule
Not very hard at all
a) they can't physically refund them in 14 days
b) if they did they would all go bust and you wouldn't get your money anyway (lots aren't ATOL protected)
c) ATOL would melt. They actually don't have the funds
d) The chaos would be even greater.
See my post of several weeks ago.
Why do you think ABTA are crying out for changes to be made.
Leaving the EU enabled us to make our own rules and the point I made several weeks ago on this topic was that the EU reacted and we did NOTHING even though it cost not a penny to relax the rules and apply some clarity.
If you want your refund in 14 days I suspect the consequence is you will send your supplier bust and will get nothing.
My refund from BA was only achieved by dialling the phone for days and even when getting through, waiting an hour and a half for the call to be answered
And as for the Ombudsman it takes months with volumes of paperwork
Believe you me, there is going to be a lot of angst this year over flight and holiday cancellations
Losing a paid holiday without receiving a refund is no more going to cause financial hardship on its own (as opposed to not having expected employment that was going to help pay for it) than the holiday happening and it raining every day and not being able to actually engage in any activities.
I am hugely sympathetic to those narked that they aren’t getting refunds on their holidays. It’s a pain in the arse to write off a loss or to wrangle a bureaucracy. But to claim that equates to financial hardship is a worrying lack of perspective given the tidal wave about to hit us.
a) I generally agree with what Ian has posted except I do think lots will lose money on their holidays because of cracks in the cover and bureaucracy, but this is Covid 19 so it has to be expected.
b) I do not agree with Big G's posts except as in point a) above and to blame the EU which has at least has acted to protect consumers and the industry (unlike the UK) is to my mind bizarre.
Big G - Not getting your refund in 14 days is not the end of the world. I am still waiting for 2 refunds for events that should have occurred 5 weeks ago. Normally I would be chasing, but what is the point? Give them a break for a while and maybe we will get it. Hassle them for it and they will go under and it will be gone.
Ryanair have the most unbelievable business model in that al their staff hate them, all their customers hate them yet they have made huge profits over the years.
You would not book the holiday if these safeguard were not in place.
You may as well put your money on a horse
Everyone will be worse off due to this. 'We're all in this together'
Would anyone book an expensive holiday without them
But then everyone's making the same point, and you are completely unable to see the wood for the trees. It's all about your statutory rights and that's it. Statutory rights that were hardly designed for the current situation. Yes some companies might be pushing the boundaries. Others are just fighting for survival. But as long as you can take the moral highground and demanding your right to refund. Me, me, me.
1) a holiday 95-99% of the time when things go well
2) a refund 90% of the 1-5% of times when things go wrong due to once a century pandemics, firms going bust etc
Almost nothing on the enormous economic damage we are doing to our country, and the extremely hard times we face ahead.
I suspect many Britons think lock down is almost a consequence free policy. When they choose to go back to work, their job and their living standards will be waiting there for them.
The enormous propaganda effort to emphasise the threat of this virus, backed by the media, has also vastly exaggerated the danger of this disease to healthy people. I suspect your average Briton's image of it is a gross distortion of the truth. It is a disease that, cruelly, overwhelmingly kills aged people who are sick and frail.
In many other countries, governments have taken action to temporarily amend their travel regulations and provide additional guidance....
We have sought urgent Government help to ensure the rules around refunds are fit for purpose .....
In the absence of this Government intervention, and to provide some order to a chaotic situation brought about by the current crisis, ABTA has developed guidance framework.....
The European Commission has advised Member states to find “flexible solutions” to demands for refunds on cancelled holidays during the Covid-19 crisis. Many other countries including France, Italy, Belgium, Spain, Germany, The Netherlands and Denmark have taken action to temporarily amend their laws and provide additional guidance. These new measures will help protect customer rights and provide clear guidance, while ensuring travel companies have a chance of surviving beyond the current crisis. You can find out more about what other countries are doing....
Once again the 1920 pandemic wiped over 20% off our GDP on nominal figures and meant we didn't reach the same GDP on nominal figures for two decades until WWII started.
I think we will do better economically this time than we did this time a century ago. What say you?
You are a holiday worse off. You didn't get your holiday. Nothing to do with finance. All to do with enjoyment and satisfaction.
It is not financial hardship but it is a loss you should be entitled to recover in full
Thanks to the latency between infection-symptom-hospitalisation-death (which was so frustrating on the run up to the peak), we've already baked in further falls in the death rate, for 15-20 days from today, even if (implausibly) all restrictions were to evaporate tomorrow and everyone instantly revert to their old habits with no fear.
Of course, 15-20 days later, the death rate would start to increase exponentially again in that unlikely scenario.
We should be down to sub-200 per day on our current trajectory by 15-20 days, anyway. Based on another couple of weeks information gained from the countries ahead of us in this disease and what restrictions they've lifted and what the outcome of that will have been (as the hospitalisation rates will be useful data), we'll have a fairly decent idea of what restrictions can be lifted without going back over and Rt of 1.0
It does not effect me
I am making a case for the many ordinary families who face losing the cost of their holiday when they thought they were insured
That is a reasonable ascertion as far as I am concerned
And for the benefit of doubt I agree it does not equate to financial hardship, and ifvI gave that impression I am sorry
Two points. Firstly, this comparison across nations does not allow for differences in the respective government`s financial aid packages. For example, is Italy`s as generous as Sunak`s? Secondly, the respondents are likely to envisage "their" lockdown as being accompanied by financial aid. If their income stopped their support for lockdown would likely stop too. This key point isn`t captured in the question that was asked.
The economic calamity is yet to play out.
This also explains why there was nothing about the Corona Virus on the archers. The scripts are written even further in advance. The writers of all soap operas stay away from rapidly changing news stories.
4 Arsenal home games
2 Arsenal away games (Brighton and Sheff Utd)
A day at The Open Golf Championship
2 weekly passes to The BMW PGA Championship
Tickets to both Fridays of the Lords test matches
That lot comes to something like £700, but I’m not bothered at all.
The bigger issue is that nobody is going to booking any more tickets, holidays etc. for the foreseeable future. At the moment there is inertia in many parts of the economy, but eventually consumer behaviour will start to impact on the wider economy. Then we’ll see how people feel about managing the risks of the virus.
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-revenue-customs/contact/reporting-tax-evasion
The only work any person who has been furloughed should be doing is statutory requirements where the person a director of the company (for which their is an explicit clause within the furlough terms and conditions).
The big difference was the unlimited personal liability, which meant that, technically, "being able to stay solvent when something goes wrong" wasn't actually possible. Fortunately, this is now mostly a relic of a bygone age since Equitas.
Its the length and nature of the lockdown that I think will in time be shwn to be a grievous mistake. But you're right of course, that's just my view. We may recover quickly. Only time will tell.
*This* week I noticed that the guest spoke with a reasonable quality mike but with reverberation on the audio. The guest was clearly speaking from home, where as normally the guests have gone to a proper studio. Again this fits in with the 6-8 week lead in preparing broadcast programmes
Reporting someone for that because they are disorganised/ineffective seems very excessive, reporting someone deliberately and fraudulently claiming furlough money whilst asking people to do significant work is different.
We do have a distorted view of what 'healthy' is though - I'll say that much. The priority shouldn't be to scare healthy people but to nudge the unhealthy ones who are otherwise kidding themselves they're not at risk.