Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
Very perceptive header, thank you Mr Meeks. The societal consequences of the virus plague are fascinating as it reverses many of the trends we had thought were baked in. Long-term investor Buffet has divested Berkshire Hathaway of all its airline holdings - just one straw in the wind. I'm glad that the survey shows Brits to be more cautious than others about relaxing lockdown measures even though I admire the Swedes for their refusenik stance.
In the short to medium term, it's likely that investors will over-compensate and the companies that look likely to benefit from a "new world" will be overrated, and those from the "old world" sold down too strongly. The major tech companies are on the rise, for example. For the brave, the trading opportunities may be with the oversold companies, although I won't be brave enough until we see whether the summer/autumn markets test new lows.
In terms of the wider world, the virus crisis may accelerate trends that were already starting to appear, but I remain sceptical that it will change the world. Writing such stuff simply helps columnists fill empty spaces in the newspapers.
Willingness to plunge into airlines and travel companies, hospitality etc would certainly be a test of contrarian bravado atm.
atm, for sure, but by the autumn, let's see.
First lesson of markets is that they always overshoot, up and down.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
It clearly isn't healthy that the interests of the working age population active in the economy weigh so less significantly.
.
An alternative perspective.
Capitalism and greed have fucked this world. Your kind of attitude, in other words. Whether it's screwing the climate or creating the environment for viruses, we have utterly screwed up this planet.
So now is an excellent opportunity to recalibrate.
Plenty on here showing themselves up as greedy selfish gits. The hatred of pensioners because a few of them happen to have saved a few pounds is incredible
Yet again, the question is how precisely does the virus spread?
Is it safer to commute by bus or train? Is it safer to go to see a play and applaud by clapping or a comedy where the audience laughs? Can sport resume behind closed doors? Does the virus spread outdoors and if not, can we go to racecourses and golf courses? What about the seaside?
Nooone knows the answers as it what is safe save for isolation. We will not be going out until next year at the earliest ..unless we have to.
Being outside is good for your immune system and mental health. Not going outside is very much a risk for your health too.
Immune system and mental health are not much use when you are dead.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
Thanks and some wise words in there . Personally I am not suffering overly as I am still working (despite MalcolmG thinking I dont have a job?) and do have a garden to sit in . I am not young either just hate to see the long term effect this will have on them when they also have to cope with the self induced Brexit . Of course I know not all the "old" are the same but they will not suffer this as much as the young (the economic and social damage) and naturally are more content about lockdown. They need to realise things like DB schemes will have to be cut and houses sold to pay to fund care homes (wages need to rise here in this sector) etc because workers cannot fund them anymore
For what it's worth, I think too many commentators see the interests of the 'young', the 'middle-aged' and 'pensioners' as somehow disconnected rather than intertwined. Pensioners may be suffering less, but they are extremely worried about their sons/daughters and others losing jobs and so forth. Conversely, young people may be itching for lockdown to end, but they are extremely worried about the impact this may have on their parents, aunts/uncles etc. and do not want to risk the virus spreading/returning. Perhaps folk are not as selfish as some presume; this is not really a time for divide and rule, by age or any other metric.
Somebody should tell well off defined benefit pensioner recipients that each extra month in lockdown will see their pension reduced 10% to see if they still support this lockdown that is destroying opportunity and driving the young into long term poverty
Away you whinging loser those pensioners have worked long and hard for their pension, I doubt many of the whingers like yourself will be able to say same when they start collecting it.
Interesting article,thanks. Strange how there is such variation in some of these countries. Italy is at 53% for ending lockdown with Spain at just 31%.considering both countries suffered similarly bad outbreaks, and have several superficial cultural similarities, what could explain that?
Geographically, much of Italy had no serious problem with CV-19, while Spain's problem was much more national.
Has anyone nailed why Spain in particular tops the table? Their problems emerged relatively late.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
It clearly isn't healthy that the interests of the working age population active in the economy weigh so less significantly.
.
An alternative perspective.
Capitalism and greed have fucked this world. Your kind of attitude, in other words. Whether it's screwing the climate or creating the environment for viruses, we have utterly screwed up this planet.
So now is an excellent opportunity to recalibrate.
Plenty on here showing themselves up as greedy selfish gits. The hatred of pensioners because a few of them happen to have saved a few pounds is incredible
Indeed - a complete lack of awareness of the many years of sacrifices to get to a position of 'relative' comfort. Zero understanding of what life was like for most pensioners growing up and making a living in the 60's to 90's. If only someone had told me how luxurious my life had been during those years. Not!
For what it's worth, I think too many commentators see the interests of the 'young', the 'middle-aged' and 'pensioners' as somehow disconnected rather than intertwined. Pensioners may be suffering less, but they are extremely worried about their sons/daughters and others losing jobs and so forth. Conversely, young people may be itching for lockdown to end, but they are extremely worried about the impact this may have on their parents, aunts/uncles etc. and do not want to risk the virus spreading/returning. Perhaps folk are not as selfish as some presume; this is not really a time for divide and rule, by age or any other metric.
Certainly not 'divide and rule', but a bit more than lip service to 'all in it together' would have been a better approach.
Just look at something like the reductions in Council Tax Benefit (now CTS) since 2010. These have been focused entirely on working age people - including the disabled and unemployed - yet pensioners as a group were excluded entirely.
I am not telling you about stoicism. I understand you are not getting what you want and that it is very frustrating for you. I am merely observing that those who are concerned about ending the lockdown are not all cowards. Some are willing to give up a hell of a lot to protect their families. Why is it, do you think, that so many essential workers, who are still out and about and working, are not sending their kids to school even though they can? Is it cowardice?
They now don't have much choice. In my area several schools have now closed for good.
In the public sector? I find that hard to believe.
Not much evidence of British stoicism there really, is there?
It is pretty stoic to give up your lifestyle and income to protect your family’s health.
Depends if it means you can sit in your garden instead of the office all summer whilst still getting paid, or you are cooped up in a tiny flat with young kids or are a supermarket delivery driver or shelf stacker having to work in stressful conditions perhaps?
Indeed. If you are cooped up in a flat with no garden but still willing to go through that to protect your family’s health then it really is stoicism.
They aren't "willing" they are obeying. They have no choice. I have no choice.
9% are resisting the lockdown. 44% are struggling but obeying. Only 48% are accepting. So actually, a majority really don't like the lockdown:
I am not telling you about stoicism. I understand you are not getting what you want and that it is very frustrating for you. I am merely observing that those who are concerned about ending the lockdown are not all cowards. Some are willing to give up a hell of a lot to protect their families. Why is it, do you think, that so many essential workers, who are still out and about and working, are not sending their kids to school even though they can? Is it cowardice?
They now don't have much choice. In my area several schools have now closed for good.
Interesting article,thanks. Strange how there is such variation in some of these countries. Italy is at 53% for ending lockdown with Spain at just 31%.considering both countries suffered similarly bad outbreaks, and have several superficial cultural similarities, what could explain that?
Geographically, much of Italy had no serious problem with CV-19, while Spain's problem was much more national.
Has anyone nailed why Spain in particular tops the table? Their problems emerged relatively late.
Population density in the middle and north, high age profile, much communal living in flats in the cities, strong cross generational family bonds, some big public demos in March .. all this and more made for a heady mix I fear.
For what it's worth, I think too many commentators see the interests of the 'young', the 'middle-aged' and 'pensioners' as somehow disconnected rather than intertwined. Pensioners may be suffering less, but they are extremely worried about their sons/daughters and others losing jobs and so forth. Conversely, young people may be itching for lockdown to end, but they are extremely worried about the impact this may have on their parents, aunts/uncles etc. and do not want to risk the virus spreading/returning. Perhaps folk are not as selfish as some presume; this is not really a time for divide and rule, by age or any other metric.
The trouble is there is a big divide , opened up by the Brexit vote . The old voted for it and disregarded the opportunity Europe may present to the young. I didn't see much collective regard to that by leave voters who were generally over 55.
Interesting article,thanks. Strange how there is such variation in some of these countries. Italy is at 53% for ending lockdown with Spain at just 31%.considering both countries suffered similarly bad outbreaks, and have several superficial cultural similarities, what could explain that?
Geographically, much of Italy had no serious problem with CV-19, while Spain's problem was much more national.
Has anyone nailed why Spain in particular tops the table? Their problems emerged relatively late.
Population density in the middle and north, high age profile, much communal living in flats in the cities, strong cross generational family bonds, some big public demos in March .. all this and more made for a heady mix I fear.
Nothing there that is unusual in Europe, however. Maybe just bad luck?
Does noone think that this whole thing will actually lead more people to want to live in the cities rather than suburbia? It does for me - the idea of not having a long bus commute feels very appealing right now.
I am not telling you about stoicism. I understand you are not getting what you want and that it is very frustrating for you. I am merely observing that those who are concerned about ending the lockdown are not all cowards. Some are willing to give up a hell of a lot to protect their families. Why is it, do you think, that so many essential workers, who are still out and about and working, are not sending their kids to school even though they can? Is it cowardice?
They now don't have much choice. In my area several schools have now closed for good.
In the public sector? I find that hard to believe.
I'm assuming it's the private sector. Even so, and knowing what I do about the shakiness of private school finances, I find it rather sudden. I was thinking half term would be the crunch point. It's seriously bad news for Hampshire's education system if several have gone bust this abruptly.
Does noone think that this whole thing will actually lead more people to want to live in the cities rather than suburbia? It does for me - the idea of not having a long bus commute feels very appealing right now.
Maybe people would prefer the work to move closer to them?
For what it's worth, I think too many commentators see the interests of the 'young', the 'middle-aged' and 'pensioners' as somehow disconnected rather than intertwined. Pensioners may be suffering less, but they are extremely worried about their sons/daughters and others losing jobs and so forth. Conversely, young people may be itching for lockdown to end, but they are extremely worried about the impact this may have on their parents, aunts/uncles etc. and do not want to risk the virus spreading/returning. Perhaps folk are not as selfish as some presume; this is not really a time for divide and rule, by age or any other metric.
When the richest group, who already control the long term governing party, and are asked to pay their share of the TV license (for channels they watch far more than the working population) and respond by threatening mass resistance designed specifically to break our countries court system, then they have chosen divide and rule.
Confidence will stem from a thought through plan. Today the government has no plan it is willing to share, hence there is no confidence.
If the press were prepared to have a constructive, supportive discussion of the proposals to end lockdown, it might be out there by now. But they would peck at it like a thousand angry crows. They have nothing else to report on, so they are in full-on attack mode, thinking that will sell their particular outlet.
They had clearly built themselves up to trash the Govt. for failing to meet the 100k tests. When the Govt. smashed that target, the press went with "well, they can't count THAT and they can't count THAT" - and so missed the much big story of how the Govt. had worked across industries and agencies to pull off an excellent outcome.
The attitude of the press will not serve them well in the longer run. It's not as if circulation numbers were great before the lockdown. People will have had a couple of months to realise they don't actually miss their over-priced rags.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Does noone think that this whole thing will actually lead more people to want to live in the cities rather than suburbia? It does for me - the idea of not having a long bus commute feels very appealing right now.
Peoples tastes will change, so yes some will feel as you do. More will feel the opposite and value space higher than location.
Does noone think that this whole thing will actually lead more people to want to live in the cities rather than suburbia? It does for me - the idea of not having a long bus commute feels very appealing right now.
Maybe people would prefer the work to move closer to them?
There’s many more advantages of living in a city than just work though - better access to cultural and social activities for one.
Interesting article,thanks. Strange how there is such variation in some of these countries. Italy is at 53% for ending lockdown with Spain at just 31%.considering both countries suffered similarly bad outbreaks, and have several superficial cultural similarities, what could explain that?
Geographically, much of Italy had no serious problem with CV-19, while Spain's problem was much more national.
Has anyone nailed why Spain in particular tops the table? Their problems emerged relatively late.
Population density in the middle and north, high age profile, much communal living in flats in the cities, strong cross generational family bonds, some big public demos in March .. all this and more made for a heady mix I fear.
Nothing there that is unusual in Europe, however. Maybe just bad luck?
They are broadly in line with Italy, France and the UK (and Benelux, Swiss). It is Germany that are the big outlier in Western Europe - a German minister was on tv last week saying it was mostly down to existing health and industry capability and good luck - which seems plausible enough.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
As I said nobody likes bad consequences of this and to many on here it is limited to losing travel deposits . The real consequences are for people losing out on first jobs, education and increased taxation .
Does noone think that this whole thing will actually lead more people to want to live in the cities rather than suburbia? It does for me - the idea of not having a long bus commute feels very appealing right now.
Peoples tastes will change, so yes some will feel as you do. More will feel the opposite and value space higher than location.
So the demand for spacious properties in cities will skyrocket?
On tracking, those who want this to happen might want to check the Vote Leave trend on Twitter.
(Short version: lots of people saying they won't use it due to Vote Leave tricksters etc).
In normal times I would stay as far away as I can for privacy and civil liberty reasons.
But these arent normal times, so I will be delighted to sign up, encourage others to do so and fight the privacy and civil liberty battles at a later date (from a disadvantageous position of having to change the new status quo, but so be it).
For what it's worth, I think too many commentators see the interests of the 'young', the 'middle-aged' and 'pensioners' as somehow disconnected rather than intertwined. Pensioners may be suffering less, but they are extremely worried about their sons/daughters and others losing jobs and so forth. Conversely, young people may be itching for lockdown to end, but they are extremely worried about the impact this may have on their parents, aunts/uncles etc. and do not want to risk the virus spreading/returning. Perhaps folk are not as selfish as some presume; this is not really a time for divide and rule, by age or any other metric.
The trouble is there is a big divide , opened up by the Brexit vote . The old voted for it and disregarded the opportunity Europe may present to the young. I didn't see much collective regard to that by leave voters who were generally over 55.
As an ardent over-60 year-old remainer, I don't think this generalisation is particularly helpful; of course Brexit was age-related, but millions of older people voted to remain.
Apple TV+ update! Website categorically does not work on any platform / browser that is not Apple. Lots of entertaining posts on a couple of forums basically pointing out that Apple appear to have built a platform that doesn't work properly on non Apple devices deliberately to make you buy one in frustration.
Similarly Firestick is having one of its brainfart periods where it has needed multiple restarts and a change in power supply. Still trying to install the OS update which hopefully will allow me to install Apple TV app which potentially will allow me to watch For All Mankind finally.
There is a reason why illegal downloads exist. I am willing to pay to watch but apparently can't...
Does noone think that this whole thing will actually lead more people to want to live in the cities rather than suburbia? It does for me - the idea of not having a long bus commute feels very appealing right now.
Peoples tastes will change, so yes some will feel as you do. More will feel the opposite and value space higher than location.
So the demand for spacious properties in cities will skyrocket?
"Properly spacious" properties where I am go for a few million so you will have to ask those with richer tastes than me.
"Estate agent spacious" - i.e 50 sq m for 2 bed flat - no, I think they will go down in value.
Interesting article,thanks. Strange how there is such variation in some of these countries. Italy is at 53% for ending lockdown with Spain at just 31%.considering both countries suffered similarly bad outbreaks, and have several superficial cultural similarities, what could explain that?
Geographically, much of Italy had no serious problem with CV-19, while Spain's problem was much more national.
Has anyone nailed why Spain in particular tops the table? Their problems emerged relatively late.
Population density in the middle and north, high age profile, much communal living in flats in the cities, strong cross generational family bonds, some big public demos in March .. all this and more made for a heady mix I fear.
Nothing there that is unusual in Europe, however. Maybe just bad luck?
They are broadly in line with Italy, France and the UK (and Benelux, Swiss). It is Germany that are the big outlier in Western Europe - a German minister was on tv last week saying it was mostly down to existing health and industry capability and good luck - which seems plausible enough.
The Spanish death rate is at the top (along with Belgium) but not hugely out of line. Their case rate however is higher than all but a handful of smaller countries (the latter probably having an easier job finding them). Has Spain been particularly effective at finding infected people with less serious symptoms?
Does noone think that this whole thing will actually lead more people to want to live in the cities rather than suburbia? It does for me - the idea of not having a long bus commute feels very appealing right now.
Peoples tastes will change, so yes some will feel as you do. More will feel the opposite and value space higher than location.
So the demand for spacious properties in cities will skyrocket?
"Properly spacious" properties where I am go for a few million so you will have to ask those with richer tastes than me.
"Estate agent spacious" - i.e 50 sq m for 2 bed flat - no, I think they will go down in value.
Most likely property generally will fall, but principally because the market dries up. The biggest medium term consequence is that, even if life returns to apparently normal, people will become more risk adverse.
Apple TV+ update! Website categorically does not work on any platform / browser that is not Apple. Lots of entertaining posts on a couple of forums basically pointing out that Apple appear to have built a platform that doesn't work properly on non Apple devices deliberately to make you buy one in frustration.
Similarly Firestick is having one of its brainfart periods where it has needed multiple restarts and a change in power supply. Still trying to install the OS update which hopefully will allow me to install Apple TV app which potentially will allow me to watch For All Mankind finally.
There is a reason why illegal downloads exist. I am willing to pay to watch but apparently can't...
Stick with firestick, I have been using it for 18 months or so, and essentially it makes a 200x Tv work like a 201x TV - once its set up I find an occassional problem every few months which generally can be resolved by the tried and tested turn it off and back on again.
For what it's worth, I think too many commentators see the interests of the 'young', the 'middle-aged' and 'pensioners' as somehow disconnected rather than intertwined. Pensioners may be suffering less, but they are extremely worried about their sons/daughters and others losing jobs and so forth. Conversely, young people may be itching for lockdown to end, but they are extremely worried about the impact this may have on their parents, aunts/uncles etc. and do not want to risk the virus spreading/returning. Perhaps folk are not as selfish as some presume; this is not really a time for divide and rule, by age or any other metric.
The trouble is there is a big divide , opened up by the Brexit vote . The old voted for it and disregarded the opportunity Europe may present to the young. I didn't see much collective regard to that by leave voters who were generally over 55.
As an ardent over-60 year-old remainer, I don't think this generalisation is particularly helpful; of course Brexit was age-related, but millions of older people voted to remain.
I voted remain but now support brexit as a result of the vote
Does noone think that this whole thing will actually lead more people to want to live in the cities rather than suburbia? It does for me - the idea of not having a long bus commute feels very appealing right now.
Peoples tastes will change, so yes some will feel as you do. More will feel the opposite and value space higher than location.
So the demand for spacious properties in cities will skyrocket?
"Properly spacious" properties where I am go for a few million so you will have to ask those with richer tastes than me.
"Estate agent spacious" - i.e 50 sq m for 2 bed flat - no, I think they will go down in value.
Most likely property generally will fall, but principally because the market dries up. The biggest medium term consequence is that, even if life returns to apparently normal, people will become more risk adverse.
Not sure rural property away from commuting locations will fall - think they may go up.
Does noone think that this whole thing will actually lead more people to want to live in the cities rather than suburbia? It does for me - the idea of not having a long bus commute feels very appealing right now.
Maybe people would prefer the work to move closer to them?
There’s many more advantages of living in a city than just work though - better access to cultural and social activities for one.
Live screening by the RSC and NT, ballet, opera and big museum exhibitions has started to erode that cultural aspect though. It is not enough of a compensation against paying extraordinarily large amounts to live in a small square footage in a city where crime and violence are higher, air quality much poorer and noise pollution constant. Retail choose used to be a thing in favour of cities but online has chipped away at that as a reason. And restaurants and concerts will be the last things to be restored in the plague pits of the big cities.
This is what teaching the young a bunch of woke , handwringing bollocks does to a nation.
Man up Britain.
I would be very surprised if it wasn’t the young who were keenest to end lockdown.
My hunch is that its a curve, and the keenest to end lockdown will be found somewhere between mid-to-late twenties and mid-to-late thirties, maybe forties, still young, not quite financial squared away, but looking at some of the death rate stats and thinking, "yeah, I'll be alright, probably".
As you get older, that curve will decay away as the perceived risk of getting sick increases.
As you go back younger, the cohort will be happier with socialising online, will be less tied down to a regular income, and in certain cases, will have clocked that certain aspects of their lives will actually be much easier in the long term.
Does noone think that this whole thing will actually lead more people to want to live in the cities rather than suburbia? It does for me - the idea of not having a long bus commute feels very appealing right now.
Maybe people would prefer the work to move closer to them?
There’s many more advantages of living in a city than just work though - better access to cultural and social activities for one.
But it really does depend on how much Covid affects people's attitudes and preferences in the longer term. There's lots to do in cities, but they are also grotty, overcrowded, and the activities are unappealing if you no longer welcome the notion of being surrounded by a crowd of other people whilst doing them.
The further out into the countryside you go, the lower the population density and the more pleasant the environment. So, if you can make a life for yourself out in a small town or a village, you no longer need to commute to a city to work, you can buy pretty much everything you would go shopping for in a city online, you don't want to sit in a busy restaurant when you can go to a smaller establishment near home (or just have a takeaway delivered,) and you'd rather watch a play or an opera from home on your 4K TV than sit in a crowded theatre full of other people fidgeting and coughing, then what further use is the city to you? There's scarcely any point in going at all.
Old people having rigged the whole system in their favour then complaining that young people are being divisive when they point this out have some brass neck, I’ll grant them that.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
King Cole, I think that's something of a revision of history. The PM, for all his many other flaws, has followed scientific advice. And when the advice changed he didn't hesitate to change the policy swiftly.
I think your criticism's unfair, on that basis.
The matter of care homes, perhaps over-recording presumptive cases, and a lack of better airport control are more legitimate grounds for complaint, I think.
I suspect there's a lot more to come, if, and it's a big if, we do have a proper inquiry into 'what happened'. Note, not, necessarily, what went wrong. There's the 'disappearance' of the result of the Cygnus review for example.
As I've posted before, I think the way our country has dealt with care homes is not good, and if this pandemic produces a root and branch review of the care of the frail, not just frail elderly, then it will have one good result.
Mr Meeks' point that a decision could be made carefully with best available advice and still end up to be wrong, and that that likely, is probably true. One of the few times it's not great to be in government.
Apple TV+ update! Website categorically does not work on any platform / browser that is not Apple. Lots of entertaining posts on a couple of forums basically pointing out that Apple appear to have built a platform that doesn't work properly on non Apple devices deliberately to make you buy one in frustration.
Similarly Firestick is having one of its brainfart periods where it has needed multiple restarts and a change in power supply. Still trying to install the OS update which hopefully will allow me to install Apple TV app which potentially will allow me to watch For All Mankind finally.
There is a reason why illegal downloads exist. I am willing to pay to watch but apparently can't...
As I explained to the music industry 19 years ago, people are only willing to pay if it's more convenient than illegal methods.
Prior to itunes appearing it really wasn't eMule and other software was so much easier than the legal options
OTOH about 25 years ago now I had a really bad car crash. There were other factors but certainly a factor was that I was driving too fast on a dark country road trying to get to a work related event I was already late for. As I lay there in my hospital bed I swore to myself that I was going to get more of a grip, a better work life balance and frankly just calm down a bit.
I reckon it lasted 6-9 months, long enough to have the operations to remove the metal from my arm and leg but the wheel in the hamsters cage proved ultimately irresistible. I can see others doing the same.
Not much evidence of British stoicism there really, is there?
It is pretty stoic to give up your lifestyle and income to protect your family’s health.
Depends if it means you can sit in your garden instead of the office all summer whilst still getting paid, or you are cooped up in a tiny flat with young kids or are a supermarket delivery driver or shelf stacker having to work in stressful conditions perhaps?
Indeed. If you are cooped up in a flat with no garden but still willing to go through that to protect your family’s health then it really is stoicism.
They aren't "willing" they are obeying. They have no choice. I have no choice.
9% are resisting the lockdown. 44% are struggling but obeying. Only 48% are accepting. So actually, a majority really don't like the lockdown:
I am not telling you about stoicism. I understand you are not getting what you want and that it is very frustrating for you. I am merely observing that those who are concerned about ending the lockdown are not all cowards. Some are willing to give up a hell of a lot to protect their families. Why is it, do you think, that so many essential workers, who are still out and about and working, are not sending their kids to school even though they can? Is it cowardice?
They now don't have much choice. In my area several schools have now closed for good.
OTOH about 25 years ago now I had a really bad car crash. There were other factors but certainly a factor was that I was driving too fast on a dark country road trying to get to a work related event I was already late for. As I lay there in my hospital bed I swore to myself that I was going to get more of a grip, a better work life balance and frankly just calm down a bit.
I reckon it lasted 6-9 months, long enough to have the operations to remove the metal from my arm and leg but the wheel in the hamsters cage proved ultimately irresistible. I can see others doing the same.
All of the "world has changed, we cannot run everything on debt" stuff post-2008/9 didn't last, either.
For what it's worth, I think too many commentators see the interests of the 'young', the 'middle-aged' and 'pensioners' as somehow disconnected rather than intertwined. Pensioners may be suffering less, but they are extremely worried about their sons/daughters and others losing jobs and so forth. Conversely, young people may be itching for lockdown to end, but they are extremely worried about the impact this may have on their parents, aunts/uncles etc. and do not want to risk the virus spreading/returning. Perhaps folk are not as selfish as some presume; this is not really a time for divide and rule, by age or any other metric.
The trouble is there is a big divide , opened up by the Brexit vote . The old voted for it and disregarded the opportunity Europe may present to the young. I didn't see much collective regard to that by leave voters who were generally over 55.
As an ardent over-60 year-old remainer, I don't think this generalisation is particularly helpful; of course Brexit was age-related, but millions of older people voted to remain.
I voted remain but now support brexit as a result of the vote
OTOH about 25 years ago now I had a really bad car crash. There were other factors but certainly a factor was that I was driving too fast on a dark country road trying to get to a work related event I was already late for. As I lay there in my hospital bed I swore to myself that I was going to get more of a grip, a better work life balance and frankly just calm down a bit.
I reckon it lasted 6-9 months, long enough to have the operations to remove the metal from my arm and leg but the wheel in the hamsters cage proved ultimately irresistible. I can see others doing the same.
At the time there would have been a lot of pressure to return to the fray. This time round I don't think that pressure is there especially for companies that have decent communications options between people.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
It clearly isn't healthy that the interests of the working age population active in the economy weigh so less significantly.
.
An alternative perspective.
Capitalism and greed have fucked this world. Your kind of attitude, in other words. Whether it's screwing the climate or creating the environment for viruses, we have utterly screwed up this planet.
So now is an excellent opportunity to recalibrate.
Plenty on here showing themselves up as greedy selfish gits. The hatred of pensioners because a few of them happen to have saved a few pounds is incredible
Indeed - a complete lack of awareness of the many years of sacrifices to get to a position of 'relative' comfort. Zero understanding of what life was like for most pensioners growing up and making a living in the 60's to 90's. If only someone had told me how luxurious my life had been during those years. Not!
I dont see how that translates into, for example, the attitude some have at being furious at certain minor largesses being taken away or having the pension age increase a few years. I know this is about virus response and sacrifice but its broader attitudes referenced.
I dont think there should be this war between age groups or hatred between them, but a lack of awareness of sacrifices on one side might well be matched by a lack of awareness of the challenges facing the other. And in each case its unrealistic to expect talk of past sacrifice or necessary future sacrifices expected to justify everything.
I've heard people close to retirement complain 'I've worked hard my whole life how dare the pension age increase' (an argument applied to many things) to people who seriously consider they might never be able to afford to retire. And I've heard people blithely ignore the hardships of many elderly people by assuming all live comfortably when they definitely do not.
It's a bit complicated. And the debate needs having. The sacrifices made by today's current older people doesnt make the problems and potential grievances of future older people disappear.
Not much evidence of British stoicism there really, is there?
Well, I guess it is a form of British exceptionalism..
Do we have regional and sub-national breakdowns?
Is Scotland the Brave?
No idea, but I'd assume that since they trust their government's advice rather more than the UK public at large does that of HMG, and that advice is more or less the same, no. I thought you'd appreciate such ein Volkness.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
OTOH about 25 years ago now I had a really bad car crash. There were other factors but certainly a factor was that I was driving too fast on a dark country road trying to get to a work related event I was already late for. As I lay there in my hospital bed I swore to myself that I was going to get more of a grip, a better work life balance and frankly just calm down a bit.
I reckon it lasted 6-9 months, long enough to have the operations to remove the metal from my arm and leg but the wheel in the hamsters cage proved ultimately irresistible. I can see others doing the same.
What we don't know is the long term effect of WFH for those not part3suited to it. Maybe they're finding it a bit of a novelty, certainly some people are not fully loaded (while others say they've never been busier) but month in,.month out?
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Why do you keep trying to turn the debate to the EU? You're turning into Alastair's mirror image.
Insurers have changed their terms going forward, but are paying on existing bookings. The doubt I heard in the media concerned business interruption insurance, which is a different matter.
Yes, companies are trying to encourage people to take enhanced credit rather than a refund. But they cant remove the right to a refund. And there are examples in the travel industry already of future credit being honoured even after bankruptcy.
Regarding 'fear' I think a lot of people are not concerned simply about their own welfare but I think the message has cut through about the risk of passing on the virus to others who are more vulnerable.
In my case I am not bothered about the risk to myself. I'm not old and have no comorbidities, but am male and overweight, so have some risk but I'm fairly confident I could beat this if I could get it. However my wife works as a care worker with very elderly, very vulnerable people. So I am taking absolutely zero risk not because of myself, not because of my children or my wife herself, but because I could not live with myself if I took an unnecessary risk passed it to her and she passed it to the vulnerable residents she works with.
I could not live myself if I knew I took stupid risks in these circumstances and others died because of my hubris.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
OTOH about 25 years ago now I had a really bad car crash. There were other factors but certainly a factor was that I was driving too fast on a dark country road trying to get to a work related event I was already late for. As I lay there in my hospital bed I swore to myself that I was going to get more of a grip, a better work life balance and frankly just calm down a bit.
I reckon it lasted 6-9 months, long enough to have the operations to remove the metal from my arm and leg but the wheel in the hamsters cage proved ultimately irresistible. I can see others doing the same.
All of the "world has changed, we cannot run everything on debt" stuff post-2008/9 didn't last, either.
No it didn't. As Robert has pointed out consumer debt even before CV was higher than in 2008. Crazy. God knows where it will be now given the loss of incomes suffered by so many.
I feel an immense pressure to get earning again. We are living off savings and money set aside for tax and it is finite. My costs are certainly down but not by nearly as much as my income. This would drive me back into the world even if I had some trepidation but in reality I miss my pals, the coffee chats, the buzz of my workplace more than I could ever have imagined.
OTOH about 25 years ago now I had a really bad car crash. There were other factors but certainly a factor was that I was driving too fast on a dark country road trying to get to a work related event I was already late for. As I lay there in my hospital bed I swore to myself that I was going to get more of a grip, a better work life balance and frankly just calm down a bit.
I reckon it lasted 6-9 months, long enough to have the operations to remove the metal from my arm and leg but the wheel in the hamsters cage proved ultimately irresistible. I can see others doing the same.
All of the "world has changed, we cannot run everything on debt" stuff post-2008/9 didn't last, either.
No it didn't. As Robert has pointed out consumer debt even before CV was higher than in 2008. Crazy. God knows where it will be now given the loss of incomes suffered by so many.
I feel an immense pressure to get earning again. We are living off savings and money set aside for tax and it is finite. My costs are certainly down but not by nearly as much as my income. This would drive me back into the world even if I had some trepidation but in reality I miss my pals, the coffee chats, the buzz of my workplace more than I could ever have imagined.
Those car loans are going be the next implosion aren't they?
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
OTOH about 25 years ago now I had a really bad car crash. There were other factors but certainly a factor was that I was driving too fast on a dark country road trying to get to a work related event I was already late for. As I lay there in my hospital bed I swore to myself that I was going to get more of a grip, a better work life balance and frankly just calm down a bit.
I reckon it lasted 6-9 months, long enough to have the operations to remove the metal from my arm and leg but the wheel in the hamsters cage proved ultimately irresistible. I can see others doing the same.
All of the "world has changed, we cannot run everything on debt" stuff post-2008/9 didn't last, either.
No it didn't. As Robert has pointed out consumer debt even before CV was higher than in 2008. Crazy. God knows where it will be now given the loss of incomes suffered by so many.
I feel an immense pressure to get earning again. We are living off savings and money set aside for tax and it is finite. My costs are certainly down but not by nearly as much as my income. This would drive me back into the world even if I had some trepidation but in reality I miss my pals, the coffee chats, the buzz of my workplace more than I could ever have imagined.
Those car loans are going be the next implosion aren't they?
Yes, and the market for second hand diesels will have collapsed giving people no easy way out.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
As I thought Ian, but real life proves different, although I have been pretty lucky.
So an expensive holiday booked through and agent and an event booked direct both with credit card. Separate trip - flight booked by relative using debit card and car hire booked direct by my wife with credit card.
Travel Insurance in place for all.
ABTA does not provide any cover and only applies to trip booked through the travel agent anyway and they have changed their guidance/rues as a result of Covid 19. The changes are sensible, but fall apart when you get down to detail. So I was going for one of the options but would lose my travel insurance as my trip would be rebooked and I would no longer be covered for Covid 19. So useless.
ATOL only covers the trip booked through the travel agent and they haven't gone bust so no cover.
Section 75 for a claim through the credit card does not work as I have booked through a 3rd party, the travel agent so no cover. Same re event as that went through a booking agent. The car hire is under £100 so no cover under Section 75 either.
The travel insurance will not pay out on the main holiday as the holiday company cancelled and not me so it is up to the holiday company to refund.
Fortunately the holiday company has refunded in full (in excess in £5000). The event got cancelled and refunded (and I made a profit on the exchange rate!). Could probably have made an insurance claim if needed to on the event if not cancelled (£300)
Just waiting for flight and car hire refunds for separate trip which are small (about £200 together). Both keep putting off refund. Only options are small claims court or cashback. Insurance would cover car hire (as we cancelled), but not flight (they cancelled) but not worth the excess. No other recourse available.
As far as I am concerned I have got a result, but I can see how others may not be so lucky, having thought they had belt and braces cover.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
Sorry but realistically losing a holiday one could afford and would have taken but cannot does not amount to economic hardship! The person has just lost a holiday.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
Contrary to early concerns, it appears government communication on danger and risk was too effective?
I think they got it right. And they have 3-4 weeks to get us ready for gradual easing of restrictions - we probably shouldnt be frothing at the bit to return at this stage, we just need to be more confident by the end of May.
OTOH about 25 years ago now I had a really bad car crash. There were other factors but certainly a factor was that I was driving too fast on a dark country road trying to get to a work related event I was already late for. As I lay there in my hospital bed I swore to myself that I was going to get more of a grip, a better work life balance and frankly just calm down a bit.
I reckon it lasted 6-9 months, long enough to have the operations to remove the metal from my arm and leg but the wheel in the hamsters cage proved ultimately irresistible. I can see others doing the same.
What we don't know is the long term effect of WFH for those not part3suited to it. Maybe they're finding it a bit of a novelty, certainly some people are not fully loaded (while others say they've never been busier) but month in,.month out?
There will be a difference at the margins. Good friends of mine who are both senior lecturers at Edinburgh say that they have never been busier and are now organising remote teaching classes not just for their own students but internationally. In my business video conferencing and quite possibly remote attendance of procedural hearings is likely to continue now we have been forced to make the technology work for ourselves.
But my productivity at home is very poor. This is not helped because the house has a kid who should be at school and a daughter who is also WFH as well as a wife who is getting driven demented that she never gets any time to herself anymore. I had one day in my workplace last week because of a necessary journey. I got more done than in the rest of the week. As soon as I am permitted I will be back there.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
I wonder if we are overestimating the lasting lifestyle changes from this. Poorer, yes, with the hit to the economy, but otherwise? Not so sure. I often like, if I can, to lose the nuance and get binary, and I think it's useful to do that here. Vaccine available next year. Vaccine administered at scale. Covid neutered. Back to normal. Thanks for the memories. I see no compelling reason why this is not the sequence which plays out. It's only a new disease, not a world war or a transformational invention such as the internet. There's nothing particularly radical about it. Once it's back in its box, through vaccination and/or treatment advances, why do we not go back to essentially what we were doing before - trying unsuccessfully to square the circle of generating sufficient economic growth to meet people's material needs and aspirations without destroying the planet. I think we probably do.
Contrary to early concerns, it appears government communication on danger and risk was too effective?
Yes and no. When it gets to the point that we're actually allowed to travel - and I'm talking just being able to visit a friend or parent in the next town or county, not jetting off for a fortnight in the Canaries - then all the people who still won't dare set foot outdoors will make it a lot quieter out there for the rest of us.
One cannot eliminate risk, but self-evidently a train journey will be much less likely to result in an unlucky bout of illness if they're still only 10% full.
Not much evidence of British stoicism there really, is there?
It is pretty stoic to give up your lifestyle and income to protect your family’s health.
Depends if it means you can sit in your garden instead of the office all summer whilst still getting paid, or you are cooped up in a tiny flat with young kids or are a supermarket delivery driver or shelf stacker having to work in stressful conditions perhaps?
It's no coincidence that many core retired Tory voters (with such homes and stable incomes) don't mind the lockdown too much but want services convenient to them but currently suspended restored - like garden centres.
Their block vote means they normally get what they want and the rest of the country have to suffer.
Know you know how I feel about Brexit. Brexiteers were happy that the oldie vote pushed them over the line then. he What goes around comes around.
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
They had the best smartphones by a mile for the first 5 years of smartphones, since then there probably isnt much reason for people outside their eco system to prefer them to others if value for money is a concern. But equally now, they are not particularly inferior or so over priced that it is worth switching away from them. (Never worth buying the latest model though!)
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
I agree and think Mr G is wrong to blame the EU. And as you can see I have/am going thru this loop currently.
The EU have acted appropriately to protect travellers and the industry. The UK has not. See ABTA web site (assuming it hasn't changed since I needed to go there). They are crying out for the Govt to change the rules to help all parties. The stupid thing is there are no costs to these changes.
The EU has acted the UK has not. I posted about this several weeks ago.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
As I thought Ian, but real life proves different, although I have been pretty lucky.
So an expensive holiday booked through and agent and an event booked direct both with credit card. Separate trip - flight booked by relative using debit card and car hire booked direct by my wife with credit card.
Travel Insurance in place for all.
ABTA does not provide any cover and only applies to trip booked through the travel agent anyway and they have changed their guidance/rues as a result of Covid 19. The changes are sensible, but fall apart when you get down to detail. So I was going for one of the options but would lose my travel insurance as my trip would be rebooked and I would no longer be covered for Covid 19. So useless.
ATOL only covers the trip booked through the travel agent and they haven't gone bust so no cover.
Section 75 for a claim through the credit card does not work as I have booked through a 3rd party, the travel agent so no cover. Same re event as that went through a booking agent. The car hire is under £100 so no cover under Section 75 either.
The travel insurance will not pay out on the main holiday as the holiday company cancelled and not me so it is up to the holiday company to refund.
Fortunately the holiday company has refunded in full (in excess in £5000). The event got cancelled and refunded (and I made a profit on the exchange rate!). Could probably have made an insurance claim if needed to on the event if not cancelled (£300)
Just waiting for flight and car hire refunds for separate trip which are small (about £200 together). Both keep putting off refund. Only options are small claims court or cashback. Insurance would cover car hire (as we cancelled), but not flight (they cancelled) but not worth the excess. No other recourse available.
As far as I am concerned I have got a result, but I can see how others may not be so lucky, having thought they had belt and braces cover.
So one of the protections came through in the end, mostly.
I didn't say there wouldn't be losses - of course there will, particularly where people cancel themselves. I shifted a planned Europe trip for this month and incurred some small extra costs as a consequence, and would have lost some money had I not chosen to gamble by rebooking for the autumn.
It was Big_G's claim that "millions" of people would lose their full holiday costs that I was challenging.
Not much evidence of British stoicism there really, is there?
It is pretty stoic to give up your lifestyle and income to protect your family’s health.
Depends if it means you can sit in your garden instead of the office all summer whilst still getting paid, or you are cooped up in a tiny flat with young kids or are a supermarket delivery driver or shelf stacker having to work in stressful conditions perhaps?
It's no coincidence that many core retired Tory voters (with such homes and stable incomes) don't mind the lockdown too much but want services convenient to them but currently suspended restored - like garden centres.
Their block vote means they normally get what they want and the rest of the country have to suffer.
Know you know how I feel about Brexit
I voted remain! And yes Brexit was another example of the desires of the retired overriding the needs of the working.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
How can they be put into "financial difficulty"? Even in the worst case (which won't happen) they only lose money they would have spent (edit/indeed, had already spent) on a holiday anyway; a holiday they now aren't taking.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
Do you prefer refunds or job losses? How can you be put into financial difficulty from not getting a holiday refund?
I wonder if we are overestimating the lasting lifestyle changes from this. Poorer, yes, with the hit to the economy, but otherwise? Not so sure. I often like, if I can, to lose the nuance and get binary, and I think it's useful to do that here. Vaccine available next year. Vaccine administered at scale. Covid neutered. Back to normal. Thanks for the memories. I see no compelling reason why this is not the sequence which plays out. It's only a new disease, not a world war or a transformational invention such as the internet. There's nothing particularly radical about it. Once it's back in its box, through vaccination and/or treatment advances, why do we not go back to essentially what we were doing before - trying unsuccessfully to square the circle of generating sufficient economic growth to meet people's material needs and aspirations without destroying the planet. I think we probably do.
Over what timescale do you see things returning to normal?
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Why do you keep trying to turn the debate to the EU? You're turning into Alastair's mirror image.
Insurers have changed their terms going forward, but are paying on existing bookings. The doubt I heard in the media concerned business interruption insurance, which is a different matter.
Yes, companies are trying to encourage people to take enhanced credit rather than a refund. But they cant remove the right to a refund. And there are examples in the travel industry already of future credit being honoured even after bankruptcy.
The debate about the EU role in this cannot be dismissed and insurers are not paying on existing bookings, mine refused without discussion. And of course it is not business interruption I am talking about
In your third paragraph ironically it is the EU threatening the right of the 14 day refund and the plain facts are he travel industry as a whole cannot sustain the billions of legitmare refunds due.
And of course it will be the ordinary consumer who pays the bill
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
How can they be put into "financial difficulty"? Even in the worst case (which won't happen) they only lose money they would have spent (edit/indeed, had already spent) on a holiday anyway; a holiday they now aren't taking.
I suppose if you booked an expensive holiday and have now lost your job, having that money back would be particularly beneficial in avoiding financial hardship.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
Being a Name (on Lloyds) is a bit of a downer.
Yep. There's a brewery owner round my parts who was a Lloyd's name back when the first crisis hit. They still make and sell an ale called "Duck's Folly" that he named as an anagrammed insult.
OT update. Am now - finally - "enjoying" Apple TV via a Firefox browser on my work laptop. Hasn't stopped playing. Yet...
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
Hard to think of a company more cynical towards its users than Apple.
Not much evidence of British stoicism there really, is there?
It is pretty stoic to give up your lifestyle and income to protect your family’s health.
Depends if it means you can sit in your garden instead of the office all summer whilst still getting paid, or you are cooped up in a tiny flat with young kids or are a supermarket delivery driver or shelf stacker having to work in stressful conditions perhaps?
Indeed. If you are cooped up in a flat with no garden but still willing to go through that to protect your family’s health then it really is stoicism.
They aren't "willing" they are obeying. They have no choice. I have no choice.
9% are resisting the lockdown. 44% are struggling but obeying. Only 48% are accepting. So actually, a majority really don't like the lockdown:
A lot of people don't "like" many of the laws we are required to obey, I would have thought that it was a statement of the bleeding' obvious that most of us would prefer not to be in lockdown.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable amount
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 daybrefund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Your first comment doesn't make any sense - an insurance company should be paying out to the point of bankruptcy unless they have legal get out clauses.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
The insurers are not paying out over covid holiday cancellations and indeed mine refunded my premium less 30% adminstration fee
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
They refunded your premium because you got a refund elsewhere so they could do so. The admin fee deduction was because they could get away with it.
It seems there are technicalities that you don't seem to have grasped which makes accepting the rest of your argument impossible - as if you first 2 statements have nuances you missed the rest of the issue will have nuances you have equally missed.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
As I thought Ian, but real life proves different, although I have been pretty lucky.
So an expensive holiday booked through and agent and an event booked direct both with credit card. Separate trip - flight booked by relative using debit card and car hire booked direct by my wife with credit card.
Travel Insurance in place for all.
ABTA does not provide any cover and only applies to trip booked through the travel agent anyway and they have changed their guidance/rues as a result of Covid 19. The changes are sensible, but fall apart when you get down to detail. So I was going for one of the options but would lose my travel insurance as my trip would be rebooked and I would no longer be covered for Covid 19. So useless.
ATOL only covers the trip booked through the travel agent and they haven't gone bust so no cover.
Section 75 for a claim through the credit card does not work as I have booked through a 3rd party, the travel agent so no cover. Same re event as that went through a booking agent. The car hire is under £100 so no cover under Section 75 either.
The travel insurance will not pay out on the main holiday as the holiday company cancelled and not me so it is up to the holiday company to refund.
Fortunately the holiday company has refunded in full (in excess in £5000). The event got cancelled and refunded (and I made a profit on the exchange rate!). Could probably have made an insurance claim if needed to on the event if not cancelled (£300)
Just waiting for flight and car hire refunds for separate trip which are small (about £200 together). Both keep putting off refund. Only options are small claims court or cashback. Insurance would cover car hire (as we cancelled), but not flight (they cancelled) but not worth the excess. No other recourse available.
As far as I am concerned I have got a result, but I can see how others may not be so lucky, having thought they had belt and braces cover.
So one of the protections came through in the end, mostly.
I didn't say there wouldn't be losses - of course there will, particularly where people cancel themselves. I shifted a planned Europe trip for this month and incurred some small extra costs as a consequence, and would have lost some money had I not chosen to gamble by rebooking for the autumn.
It was Big_G's claim that "millions" of people would lose their full holiday costs that I was challenging.
Nope. I was lucky. 2 of the 4 refunds have been received and were because the supplier refunded. No protections used which generally proved worthless.
However I was pointing out the real life situation and generally don't agree with Big G's other statements on this, but I do think he is right on the statement - many will lose out by failing to meet the criteria of the means of making claims and get bogged down in nonsense.
Re who cancelled is interesting. If I cancel I can make an insurance claim because of Govt FO travel guidance. If the travel company or airline cancels - tough as you route is through the supplier.
Many wealthy (almost by definition ) older people willing to support lockdown and frown on those that don't but don't really want to share any (even minor) financial consequences - just listen to the moaning of 60 plus people who have booked a week in Tuscany this summer and cannot get their few hundred quid deposit back . Generally people want all the good things and none of the bad consequences. The older you get the consequences are limited to lost minor deposits on holidays (and they will demand them back!) but for the young they are losing their education, freedom and opportunity.
I understand your frustration and fear for the future but would caution that the vast majority of pensioners are far from wealthy and the lost holidays are not only deposits, but full price payments, and include many millions of families and younger people
The idea those of us in 12 weeks lockdown, unable to be with our family and hug our grandchildren, are laid back about the lockdown is far from true. My wife and I hope the lockdown will be eased gradually and responsibly and indeed we accept being in lockdown, as others are freed to start the process of regaining some normality in their lives
It is a great importance we do not set up a them against us, i.e. the old v the young as that creates division just at the time we need to be kinder to each other and show compassion to everyone who is suffering, including obviously yourself
We do feel your pain
I doubt there are millions of lost holiday payments. Most bookings are protected multiple times over, by legal rights in the event of cancellation, by their credit card companies, by travel insurance, and by ABTA/ATOL.
We are soon to be in the main holiday season when millions travel abroad on holiday and will now be near or will have paid the full price of their holiday
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
Delay is inevitable, given the cash flow crisis travel companies now have. Look at the cruise industry - hundreds of thousands of people being made to wait two months or more for their refunds, mostly Americans and Brits. Nothing to do with the EU.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
Actually they will be victims in all of this
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
Mr G are you sure you are right on this; looks to me, from a quick scan of the EU regs that while there have been changes, they increase consumer protection. In any event it would be amazing if the EU reduced consumer protection; goes against the grain of everything else they have done.
There is a cohort of EU countries led by Germany wanting the 14 day refund rule abolished to protect their airlines and travel industry. I understand the EU do intend confirming it and I would say to anyone at risk over their refund to get it now and also alert their credit card company
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
How can they be put into "financial difficulty"? Even in the worst case (which won't happen) they only lose money they would have spent (edit/indeed, had already spent) on a holiday anyway; a holiday they now aren't taking.
I suppose if you booked an expensive holiday and have now lost your job, having that money back would be particularly beneficial in avoiding financial hardship.
Possibly, fair enough. Although I suspect the majority of cancellations so far - people who can afford to take trips in April and May - will be older people, as we haven't yet reached the holiday season for most working age families.
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First lesson of markets is that they always overshoot, up and down.
Japanese Haiku was the only type of poetry I ever got into.
Of course I know not all the "old" are the same but they will not suffer this as much as the young (the economic and social damage) and naturally are more content about lockdown. They need to realise things like DB schemes will have to be cut and houses sold to pay to fund care homes (wages need to rise here in this sector) etc because workers cannot fund them anymore
Just look at something like the reductions in Council Tax Benefit (now CTS) since 2010. These have been focused entirely on working age people - including the disabled and unemployed - yet pensioners as a group were excluded entirely.
(Short version: lots of people saying they won't use it due to Vote Leave tricksters etc).
They had clearly built themselves up to trash the Govt. for failing to meet the 100k tests. When the Govt. smashed that target, the press went with "well, they can't count THAT and they can't count THAT" - and so missed the much big story of how the Govt. had worked across industries and agencies to pull off an excellent outcome.
The attitude of the press will not serve them well in the longer run. It's not as if circulation numbers were great before the lockdown. People will have had a couple of months to realise they don't actually miss their over-priced rags.
Sadly the EU of all organisations is about to remove the protections you refer to in an outrageous move to remove the right to a refund within 14 days of cancellation of holiday. The EU valuing and safeguarding big business at the expense of all just ordinary families wanting their summer holiday is just wrong
You may not have read my explanation to Stodge on the battle I have had with BA to get my air fare refunded when they cancelled our flights to Vancouver in May. Many companies in the travel industry will not survive due to their inability to fund the refunds and lost holiday payments will just disappear
The loss and/or delay over travel refunds this summer will be one of the biggest scandals aided and abetted by the EU
But these arent normal times, so I will be delighted to sign up, encourage others to do so and fight the privacy and civil liberty battles at a later date (from a disadvantageous position of having to change the new status quo, but so be it).
Similarly Firestick is having one of its brainfart periods where it has needed multiple restarts and a change in power supply. Still trying to install the OS update which hopefully will allow me to install Apple TV app which potentially will allow me to watch For All Mankind finally.
There is a reason why illegal downloads exist. I am willing to pay to watch but apparently can't...
"Estate agent spacious" - i.e 50 sq m for 2 bed flat - no, I think they will go down in value.
The further out into the countryside you go, the lower the population density and the more pleasant the environment. So, if you can make a life for yourself out in a small town or a village, you no longer need to commute to a city to work, you can buy pretty much everything you would go shopping for in a city online, you don't want to sit in a busy restaurant when you can go to a smaller establishment near home (or just have a takeaway delivered,) and you'd rather watch a play or an opera from home on your 4K TV than sit in a crowded theatre full of other people fidgeting and coughing, then what further use is the city to you? There's scarcely any point in going at all.
However, given the multiple protections I highlighted downthread, it is very unlikely that much of the losses will end up with the holidaymakers.
As I've posted before, I think the way our country has dealt with care homes is not good, and if this pandemic produces a root and branch review of the care of the frail, not just frail elderly, then it will have one good result.
Is Scotland the Brave?
Prior to itunes appearing it really wasn't eMule and other software was so much easier than the legal options
OTOH about 25 years ago now I had a really bad car crash. There were other factors but certainly a factor was that I was driving too fast on a dark country road trying to get to a work related event I was already late for. As I lay there in my hospital bed I swore to myself that I was going to get more of a grip, a better work life balance and frankly just calm down a bit.
I reckon it lasted 6-9 months, long enough to have the operations to remove the metal from my arm and leg but the wheel in the hamsters cage proved ultimately irresistible. I can see others doing the same.
Firstly, insurers are refusing to pay out as they maintain it is not an insurable event
Secondly, airlines, travel companies and others are offering travel vouchers just at the time they are facing bankruptcy and rendering the vouchers worthless against their legal duty to refund
Third, you cannot easily dismiss the appalling behaviour of the EU as they remove the right to a 14 day refund in an act of highway robbery against families and holidaymakers across the EU and in so doing also removes the rights of UK consumers to obtain a 14 day refund on cancellation of their cruise
I would just say that it would be refreshing if those who support the EU actually condemned them rather than made excuses. It is not excusable
I dont think there should be this war between age groups or hatred between them, but a lack of awareness of sacrifices on one side might well be matched by a lack of awareness of the challenges facing the other. And in each case its unrealistic to expect talk of past sacrifice or necessary future sacrifices expected to justify everything.
I've heard people close to retirement complain 'I've worked hard my whole life how dare the pension age increase' (an argument applied to many things) to people who seriously consider they might never be able to afford to retire. And I've heard people blithely ignore the hardships of many elderly people by assuming all live comfortably when they definitely do not.
It's a bit complicated. And the debate needs having. The sacrifices made by today's current older people doesnt make the problems and potential grievances of future older people disappear.
Yes I know they are trying it on (as they all do) but I suspect the ombudsman will be giving those arguments very short shrift.
We are stoically accepting that lockdown is the rational approach
Insurers have changed their terms going forward, but are paying on existing bookings. The doubt I heard in the media concerned business interruption insurance, which is a different matter.
Yes, companies are trying to encourage people to take enhanced credit rather than a refund. But they cant remove the right to a refund. And there are examples in the travel industry already of future credit being honoured even after bankruptcy.
In my case I am not bothered about the risk to myself. I'm not old and have no comorbidities, but am male and overweight, so have some risk but I'm fairly confident I could beat this if I could get it. However my wife works as a care worker with very elderly, very vulnerable people. So I am taking absolutely zero risk not because of myself, not because of my children or my wife herself, but because I could not live with myself if I took an unnecessary risk passed it to her and she passed it to the vulnerable residents she works with.
I could not live myself if I knew I took stupid risks in these circumstances and others died because of my hubris.
I feel an immense pressure to get earning again. We are living off savings and money set aside for tax and it is finite. My costs are certainly down but not by nearly as much as my income. This would drive me back into the world even if I had some trepidation but in reality I miss my pals, the coffee chats, the buzz of my workplace more than I could ever have imagined.
I thought for a minute that you meant that we had a solution for Owen Jones and Piers Morgan.
The EU are about to change the rules lifting the 14 day refund requirement thereby plunging holidaymakers into months of stress as they fight for refunds
As you know the process of using an Ombudsman is long and stressful and will not see a return on holiday cash for many months, even if the complainant wins their case
I cannot emphasise it enough, this years holidays are going to result in financial pain and complexity never even considered when the consumer had the 14 day refund, backed by statute
So an expensive holiday booked through and agent and an event booked direct both with credit card. Separate trip - flight booked by relative using debit card and car hire booked direct by my wife with credit card.
Travel Insurance in place for all.
ABTA does not provide any cover and only applies to trip booked through the travel agent anyway and they have changed their guidance/rues as a result of Covid 19. The changes are sensible, but fall apart when you get down to detail. So I was going for one of the options but would lose my travel insurance as my trip would be rebooked and I would no longer be covered for Covid 19. So useless.
ATOL only covers the trip booked through the travel agent and they haven't gone bust so no cover.
Section 75 for a claim through the credit card does not work as I have booked through a 3rd party, the travel agent so no cover. Same re event as that went through a booking agent. The car hire is under £100 so no cover under Section 75 either.
The travel insurance will not pay out on the main holiday as the holiday company cancelled and not me so it is up to the holiday company to refund.
Fortunately the holiday company has refunded in full (in excess in £5000). The event got cancelled and refunded (and I made a profit on the exchange rate!). Could probably have made an insurance claim if needed to on the event if not cancelled (£300)
Just waiting for flight and car hire refunds for separate trip which are small (about £200 together). Both keep putting off refund. Only options are small claims court or cashback. Insurance would cover car hire (as we cancelled), but not flight (they cancelled) but not worth the excess. No other recourse available.
As far as I am concerned I have got a result, but I can see how others may not be so lucky, having thought they had belt and braces cover.
The vast majority will get their holidays refunded, rightly so, anyway.
Seriously Apple users, why would you tie yourselves to *this*? Can only use their overpriced tat. Devices built where you have to buy an overpriced adaptor to keep using all your peripherals. Where they keep changing the connector so you have to buy them again. Where the battery is built to fail and if it doesn't the software turns the device into a snail so you WILL buy again. Buy again. Again. Again.
If China turns into an international pariah, how will Apple get around it? I know that a company as Short of Cash as they are won't be able to make their devices outside of semi-slave labour factories in China, might be a problem...
The people running around like headless chickens because they've had to do something different for a few weeks are the ones who need to calm down.
But my productivity at home is very poor. This is not helped because the house has a kid who should be at school and a daughter who is also WFH as well as a wife who is getting driven demented that she never gets any time to herself anymore. I had one day in my workplace last week because of a necessary journey. I got more done than in the rest of the week. As soon as I am permitted I will be back there.
There is a very real danger the EU are about to put millions of their citizens in financial difficulty over their holiday plans
One cannot eliminate risk, but self-evidently a train journey will be much less likely to result in an unlucky bout of illness if they're still only 10% full.
The EU have acted appropriately to protect travellers and the industry. The UK has not. See ABTA web site (assuming it hasn't changed since I needed to go there). They are crying out for the Govt to change the rules to help all parties. The stupid thing is there are no costs to these changes.
The EU has acted the UK has not. I posted about this several weeks ago.
I didn't say there wouldn't be losses - of course there will, particularly where people cancel themselves. I shifted a planned Europe trip for this month and incurred some small extra costs as a consequence, and would have lost some money had I not chosen to gamble by rebooking for the autumn.
It was Big_G's claim that "millions" of people would lose their full holiday costs that I was challenging.
In your third paragraph ironically it is the EU threatening the right of the 14 day refund and the plain facts are he travel industry as a whole cannot sustain the billions of legitmare refunds due.
And of course it will be the ordinary consumer who pays the bill
It seems there are technicalities that you don't seem to have grasped which makes accepting the rest of your argument impossible - as if you first 2 statements have nuances you missed the rest of the issue will have nuances you have equally missed.
However I was pointing out the real life situation and generally don't agree with Big G's other statements on this, but I do think he is right on the statement - many will lose out by failing to meet the criteria of the means of making claims and get bogged down in nonsense.
Re who cancelled is interesting. If I cancel I can make an insurance claim because of Govt FO travel guidance. If the travel company or airline cancels - tough as you route is through the supplier.