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  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    The point of the British empire was that it was a mercantilist system. It extracted resources from its colonies then sold finished goods back to the colonies.

    This kept the colonies poor and stopped them developing to their actual potential.

    Prior to the American War of Independence there was a letter published in an American paper showing that the colonies would go bankrupt if they declared independence so reliant were they on British support. In India there were rafts of laws banning the setting up of industry making it reliant on British based manufacturing.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    Dura_Ace said:



    I'm expecting the development of new forums and institutions and possibly NATO changing into GTO.

    NATO is now a bit on the side at best for the US. The main strategic effort of the US military is now focused toward a war in the Pacific with China hence their interest in platforms like B-21 and PGS which have very limited applicability in a European theatre.

    They are already preparing for a post-NATO, isolated future with JADC2 which integrates every sensor, weapon and platform from the Army, USAF and USN into one multi-domain network and there is NO connectivity into it for coalition 'partners'. What comes after NATO for the US won't be another treaty organisation. They will do strong but separate bilateral defence agreements with subservient partner nations (eg Canada and Australia) with whom they share strategic interests.

    That's the current Trumpian world view from the US and it will last about 5 years.

    American now needs new alliances and partners to fulfil its objectives.

    Realpolitik will force it to.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    TOPPING said:

    FPT:

    EPG said:

    Apart from the label could anyone tell the difference between a Lewin and Tyrwhitt shirt?

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1256381257052815360?s=20

    They are each mehn's shirts with emphasis on the meh. M&S is the place to go.
    I have to disagree. M&S is a f*cking disaster these days for shirts. Great if you want tailored, skinny, slim or extra slim fit, but if you want 'normal' fit forget it.

    Plus they don't even put the shirts in collar size order on the stores these days.

    Charles Tyrwhitt provide a great service imo, especially if you pick up one of their '4 shirts for' offers which I always do.
    Last week I bought four Charles Tyrwhitt shirts for £20 each. Delivered three days later. Non iron cotton poplin short sleeves. Perfect for your home office.
    They look great and aren't bad value.

    But they don't last. Build-quality is poor. My Tyrwhitt shirts and suits have never lasted longer than 2 years.

    TM Lewin? M&S? Gieves & Hawkes? Turnbull & Asser?

    They go the full mile, and some.
    I've experimented with suits from a hand-made one with three fittings by a serious tailor for £700 (20 years ago) to an off-the-hangar one from Tesco for £25. The former was a complete waste of money (as I had suspected, but wanted to try it once in a moment of self-indulgence) - fitted OK, looked good, wore out in about 5 years. The latter was fantastic value - fitted OK, looked good, wore out in about 4 years. Did either of them use dodgy back-room labour? Who knows? - a Fair Trade suits initiative would be a good idea.

    The tailor-made guy still has my number and at the height of the pandemic WhatsApped me "Now is a great time to think about a new suit!" Some people never give up.
    There are no rules. It's a personal taste.

    Whatever works for you.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    America ceasing to be World hegemon is not really a bad thing. I think everyone fears it because the status quo is that one power is utterly dominant, and they assume that mantle will simply pass to China. It won't. America will still exist and be very powerful, it just won't be able to act with impunity anywhere in the world as it has been. There will be America, China, Russia, whatever Europe morphs into, and a panoply of smaller nations like the UK. That's not a bad thing.

    Plus India of course
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'm just happy that we are so easily able to solve all the problems of our former colony. I'm sure many regret we let it go in the first place.

    Oh wait. They took it from us. And currently their administration is a reflection of a great many Americans. Just as ours is.

    It's not Trump it's the American people and they are entitled to elect whoever they damn well want. Assured, perhaps, that the smug Brits will be there with them. To criticise and make snide observations.

    Edit: God bless America.

    I think you will find the French had quite a lot to do with the loss of the 13 colonies.

    The financial implications of the French intervention eventually led to Calonne’s famous advice to the French King - ‘Your Majesty, I am afraid there is no money left.’*

    Had it been left to the Americans on their own, they might have struggled.

    *No that’s not exactly what he said, but it’s a great line. I’ve always thought so ever since Laws Byrned Liam over it.
    The cost of beating France in the Seven Years War led to Britain imposing the taxes that triggered the American Revolution. The cost to France of beating Britain in the American Revolution led to the French Revolution. The French Revolution ultimately led to Waterloo and the long C19 Pax Britannica. Discuss.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'm just happy that we are so easily able to solve all the problems of our former colony. I'm sure many regret we let it go in the first place.

    Oh wait. They took it from us. And currently their administration is a reflection of a great many Americans. Just as ours is.

    It's not Trump it's the American people and they are entitled to elect whoever they damn well want. Assured, perhaps, that the smug Brits will be there with them. To criticise and make snide observations.

    Edit: God bless America.

    If American hadn't declared independence, where would it have ended up?

    Obviously, self-governance would have continued to be a thing (as it was to an extent even at the point of revolution, and in all other settler colonies) so I'm inclined to think it'd have been a much bigger and richer Canada.

    However, what would its size and boundaries have been? How would it have developed?

    No-one knows.
    Being under the yoke it would have suffered similar fate to Scotland, being held back and treated like crap whilst being milked dry..
    I don't even think you believe the crap you write sometimes Malcolm.

    Have a nice morning walk in the sun.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'm just happy that we are so easily able to solve all the problems of our former colony. I'm sure many regret we let it go in the first place.

    Oh wait. They took it from us. And currently their administration is a reflection of a great many Americans. Just as ours is.

    It's not Trump it's the American people and they are entitled to elect whoever they damn well want. Assured, perhaps, that the smug Brits will be there with them. To criticise and make snide observations.

    Edit: God bless America.

    If American hadn't declared independence, where would it have ended up?

    Obviously, self-governance would have continued to be a thing (as it was to an extent even at the point of revolution, and in all other settler colonies) so I'm inclined to think it'd have been a much bigger and richer Canada.

    However, what would its size and boundaries have been? How would it have developed?

    No-one knows.
    If America had not declared independence and we had kept India, the British Empire would be the dominant superpower still
    Well, yeah. The question is whether that was ever feasible or sustainable.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    Clearly and indisputably correct, why is this market so wrong?

    I think that it’s depression. People just cannot believe that the choice can be so bad. America needs something better. God will provide. Or something.
    America’s transformation into a world power coincided with an extended period of at best second rate presidents (Lincoln aside). The structural problems the USA has now go far deeper than the presidency and the poor quality of the candidates is a symptom not a cause of its ills.
    America is where we were in the 1900s - we realised then we could no longer exericse global superpower alone: we therefore started to ally with nations like France, and later Japan and Russia (sort of) and then started using multilateralism in the 1920s and beyond to contain the ambitions of others.

    America is already there but hasn't realised it yet. The next 10-20 years will be a wake-up call as it recongises it needs to work in alliance right across the West to not just leverage its influence and power effectively, but also to defend its values and way of life at home.

    I'm expecting the development of new forums and institutions and possibly NATO changing into GTO.
    Indeed unlike the last half century of US dominance, certainly after the USSR broke up, the 21st century will see 3 big superpowers, the US, China and India and the US will need broader alliances and to reach out to India to contain China as well as shore up NATO to contain Putin and Russia.
    Agree with all of that except Putin is really a geostrategic sideshow.

    He's far weaker than he looks.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    edited May 2020

    America ceasing to be World hegemon is not really a bad thing. I think everyone fears it because the status quo is that one power is utterly dominant, and they assume that mantle will simply pass to China. It won't. America will still exist and be very powerful, it just won't be able to act with impunity anywhere in the world as it has been. There will be America, China, Russia, whatever Europe morphs into, and a panoply of smaller nations like the UK. That's not a bad thing.

    When it no longer is we'll be desperate to return to the good old days when they were.

    China on top will make America look like a cuddly teddy bear.
    Again, you're missing the very point I was commenting on. After the fall of communism, America has been the undisputed hegemonic world power. Yes it would be deeply worrying if China assumed that role, but that would imply a total implosion of America, rather than a hobbling on, which is more likely. It is not normal (or healthy) for one country to hold that power. It certainly was not the case in the days of the British Empire - we may have been the leader, but you had a whole range of European great powers as well as the USA. One of the reasons we were so beastly to the Chinese is because we couldn't really do it to anyone else. We were constricted in action, and so were the others. Balance of powers. That worked well in the 19th century.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Pulpstar said:


    That was pretty gratuitous. Some of us are not long finished breakfast.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Alistair said:

    The point of the British empire was that it was a mercantilist system. It extracted resources from its colonies then sold finished goods back to the colonies.

    This kept the colonies poor and stopped them developing to their actual potential.

    Prior to the American War of Independence there was a letter published in an American paper showing that the colonies would go bankrupt if they declared independence so reliant were they on British support. In India there were rafts of laws banning the setting up of industry making it reliant on British based manufacturing.

    Until the Seven Years War it made sense for the Colonies to be in the Empire’s protective sphere against the French. Once Wolfe had removed the French threat, and London decided the Colonies needed to pay their share of the cost of doing so, there was no reason to stay, indeed it was counterproductive for them to do so.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited May 2020
    It's not impossible but I very much doubt that China will prove to be expansionist.

    There's nothing in its history to suggest it has any non-economic global aspirations. It is of course fiercely protective of what it believes to be its possessions plus has a few grudges locally (Japan for example).

    If the US is preparing for a Sino-US war it will be a(n) pre-emptive economic one to diminish Chinese manufacturing.

    I'm sure @Dura_Ace will tell us whether it would win such a war.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited May 2020


    There is a huge market out there for guys 40-70 who want to buy smart, top quality yet slightly edgy clothing.

    And they should be discouraged in that enterprise as much as possible. If you can't wear a standard classic cut or afford the expensive bespoke alternative, go straight to beige poly cotton and velcro strap shoes.

    My particular bugbear du jour is vividly patterned shirts with even more vividly patterned contrasting lining on the inners of collars and cuffs, usually top 2 buttons undone and straining over a medicine ball belly. Clarkson is a bit of a one for that type of thing.

    Almost as bad as those v neck sweaters with a sewn-in insert of a shirt collar; I hope everyone agrees that they were the sperm of Satan.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I'm not touching Biden; there is a very material risk that his health prevents him from sealing that "formality" of becoming the candidate.

    We won't see anything of the intensive behind the scenes medical checks the Democrats are going to insist upon before the Convention. Ask yourself this: if you were headhunting the post of CEO of a FTSE 100 company, would you appoint Biden, having heard what he has said in the media in recent months? Let's face it, he wouldn't get on the long list.

    I would have thought that a (basically dead) candidate would suit the Democrats perfectly.
    Even post-Covid injecting bleach Trump will make hay with a brain-dead Biden.

    "His mind is so far gone, he can't even remember he was so corrupt...."
    I think, though, that Trump is becoming as toxic in 2020 as Hillary was in 2016.
    You'd hope, but... He can still rally the nation by blaming China. That may be a far more potent issue come November.
    Try to win re-election by whipping the nation into a frenzy of sinophobia?

    Trump wouldn't do a dreadful thing like that surely?
    Take it to the bank. Along with your winnings on Trump.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    TOPPING said:

    It's not impossible but I very much doubt that China will prove to be expansionist.

    There's nothing in its history to suggest it has any non-economic global aspirations. It is of course fiercely protective of what it believes to be its possessions plus has a few grudges locally (Japan for example).

    If the US is preparing for a Sino-US war it will be a(n) economically pre-emptive economic one.

    I'm sure @Dura_Ace will tell us whether it would win such a war.

    I think that their expansion will be economic as in Africa. As ours largely was in fairness.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
    Why? No other epidemic for a hundred years had been so. Be very wary of using the word "obviously".

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    America ceasing to be World hegemon is not really a bad thing. I think everyone fears it because the status quo is that one power is utterly dominant, and they assume that mantle will simply pass to China. It won't. America will still exist and be very powerful, it just won't be able to act with impunity anywhere in the world as it has been. There will be America, China, Russia, whatever Europe morphs into, and a panoply of smaller nations like the UK. That's not a bad thing.

    When it no longer is we'll be desperate to return to the good old days when they were.

    China on top will make America look like a cuddly teddy bear.
    Again, you're missing the very point I was commenting on. After the fall of communism, America has been the undisputed hegemonic world power. Yes it would be deeply worrying if China assumed that role, but that would imply a total implosion of America, rather than a hobbling on, which is more likely. It is not normal (or healthy) for one country to hold that power. It certainly was not the case in the days of the British Empire - we may have been the leader, but you had a whole range of European great powers as well as the USA. One of the reasons we were so beastly to the Chinese is because we couldn't really do it to anyone else. We were constricted in action, and so were the others. Balance of powers. That worked well in the 19th century.
    It worked because it was a balance of European powers that weren't orders of magnitude different from each other in weight.

    You can't balance against China unless the West unites.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    It's not impossible but I very much doubt that China will prove to be expansionist.

    There's nothing in its history to suggest it has any non-economic global aspirations. It is of course fiercely protective of what it believes to be its possessions plus has a few grudges locally (Japan for example).

    If the US is preparing for a Sino-US war it will be a(n) economically pre-emptive economic one.

    I'm sure @Dura_Ace will tell us whether it would win such a war.

    I think that their expansion will be economic as in Africa. As ours largely was in fairness.

    Yes that is true the belt and road initiative has been welcomed by many countries in Africa.

    But that's different from enforced occupation.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,436
    DavidL said:

    So what does America need to do?

    Many of the same things as us, I would suggest. It needs to start saving, eliminate its trade deficit, improve its education for the majority, find ways to create social mobility again, bring the vampiric classes of financiers and lawyers back under control, invest in infrastructure, reduce inequality, bring alienated communities back into the mainstream. It’s an obvious list. The candidates on offer seem to not even recognise the problem.

    It's simpler and harder than that.

    They need to heal the partisan divide.

    At the moment the failure of the other side is more important than the success of the country, because the partisan divide is so deep that both sides believe that the success of the other will inevitably ruin the country.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    TOPPING said:

    It's not impossible but I very much doubt that China will prove to be expansionist.

    There's nothing in its history to suggest it has any non-economic global aspirations. It is of course fiercely protective of what it believes to be its possessions plus has a few grudges locally (Japan for example).

    If the US is preparing for a Sino-US war it will be a(n) economically pre-emptive economic one.

    I'm sure @Dura_Ace will tell us whether it would win such a war.

    That’s true, but regional aspirations can be just as dangerous. The global expansion of the European powers was an aberration unlikely to be repeated as it came about from a temporarily massive technological imbalance between them and the rest of the world. Historically very few civilisations outside Western Europe in the second half of the second millennium CE have had expansionist designs beyond their immediate regions.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,676
    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:


    That was pretty gratuitous. Some of us are not long finished breakfast.
    Is this better?



  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    New data seen by ministers and government scientists shows the proportion of severely obese people in ICUs is twice the proportion in the general population.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/uk-scientists-coronavirus-obesity-link

    Not really news as Witty mentioned being a fatty was an issue in his talk the other day.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    DavidL said:

    So what does America need to do?

    Many of the same things as us, I would suggest. It needs to start saving, eliminate its trade deficit, improve its education for the majority, find ways to create social mobility again, bring the vampiric classes of financiers and lawyers back under control, invest in infrastructure, reduce inequality, bring alienated communities back into the mainstream. It’s an obvious list. The candidates on offer seem to not even recognise the problem.

    It's simpler and harder than that.

    They need to heal the partisan divide.

    At the moment the failure of the other side is more important than the success of the country, because the partisan divide is so deep that both sides believe that the success of the other will inevitably ruin the country.
    Like people here being upset at the government succeeding to get testing up to help the nation during a pandemic health crisis? Some here would rather see more dying in our streets than see the government succeed.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    Anyone care to have a bash at what 'brought forward presentationally' means?

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1256484572293931011?s=20
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2020

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'm just happy that we are so easily able to solve all the problems of our former colony. I'm sure many regret we let it go in the first place.

    Oh wait. They took it from us. And currently their administration is a reflection of a great many Americans. Just as ours is.

    It's not Trump it's the American people and they are entitled to elect whoever they damn well want. Assured, perhaps, that the smug Brits will be there with them. To criticise and make snide observations.

    Edit: God bless America.

    If American hadn't declared independence, where would it have ended up?

    Obviously, self-governance would have continued to be a thing (as it was to an extent even at the point of revolution, and in all other settler colonies) so I'm inclined to think it'd have been a much bigger and richer Canada.

    However, what would its size and boundaries have been? How would it have developed?

    No-one knows.
    If America had not declared independence and we had kept India, the British Empire would be the dominant superpower still
    Well, yeah. The question is whether that was ever feasible or sustainable.
    QTWAIN.

    Self governance was already becoming a thing. There is a reason nations declared independence, even Australia and Canada etc are indepedent nations, its like suggesting if the sun hadn't risen this morning it would still be night.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    Incoming article from the Guardian claiming the government is fatist over claiming links between size and coronavirus.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482


    There is a huge market out there for guys 40-70 who want to buy smart, top quality yet slightly edgy clothing.

    And they should be discouraged in that enterprise as much as possible. If you can't wear a standard classic cut or afford the expensive bespoke alternative, go straight to beige poly cotton and velcro strap shoes.

    My particular bugbear du jour is vividly patterned shirts with even more vividly patterned contrasting lining on the inners of collars and cuffs, usually top 2 buttons undone and straining over a medicine ball belly. Clarkson is a bit of a one for that type of thing.

    Almost as bad as those v neck sweaters with a sewn-in insert of a shirt collar; I hope everyone agrees that they were the sperm of Satan.
    They are horriffic.

    I feel more sympathy for the older man who wants to wear loud shirts then you do though. Nobody wants to become invisible as they age.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,676
    If you thought those very fine Trump people couldn’t get any lovelier.

    https://twitter.com/dennis_kosuth/status/1256309653455003648?s=21

    I suppose it is just a coincidence that the Dem Governor of Illinois is Jewish.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Clearly and indisputably correct, why is this market so wrong?

    British punters are a bit shite at US politics. It was Rubio last time.

    Actually, not just US politics: there was that weird Andrea Leadsom love-in last year during the Tory leadership contest that was never satisfactorily explained either.
    IIUC predictit and other US-accessible markets are equally or more wrong.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
    Why? No other epidemic for a hundred years had been so. Be very wary of using the word "obviously".

    Asian flu 33,000, Hong Kong flu 80,000, HIV? A new infectious disease is either a mass phenomenon or it's a nothingburger, so I don't see how the highly dubious claim that government is not about individuals applies.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,676
    On topic I’d be so laying Trump in this market if

    i) I wasn’t so burned by my betting record in 2016.

    ii) Trump’s opponent wasn’t Joe Biden.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:


    That was pretty gratuitous. Some of us are not long finished breakfast.
    Is this better?



    I prefer Fanny's.

    Craddock that is.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:


    That was pretty gratuitous. Some of us are not long finished breakfast.
    Is this better?



    As you move through life
    Let this be your goal
    Keep your eye upon the donut
    And not upon the hole
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
    Why? No other epidemic for a hundred years had been so. Be very wary of using the word "obviously".

    Indeed. I was convinced it would be just another bad flu season and hysteria like SARS that ended up not actually killing many. To the point eadric said he'd buy dinner if I was right and that still seemed plausible until late February let alone January.

    Happy to put my hand up and say I was wrong.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:


    That was pretty gratuitous. Some of us are not long finished breakfast.
    Is this better?



    That image needs some serious cropping.....
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'm just happy that we are so easily able to solve all the problems of our former colony. I'm sure many regret we let it go in the first place.

    Oh wait. They took it from us. And currently their administration is a reflection of a great many Americans. Just as ours is.

    It's not Trump it's the American people and they are entitled to elect whoever they damn well want. Assured, perhaps, that the smug Brits will be there with them. To criticise and make snide observations.

    Edit: God bless America.

    If American hadn't declared independence, where would it have ended up?

    Obviously, self-governance would have continued to be a thing (as it was to an extent even at the point of revolution, and in all other settler colonies) so I'm inclined to think it'd have been a much bigger and richer Canada.

    However, what would its size and boundaries have been? How would it have developed?

    No-one knows.
    Being under the yoke it would have suffered similar fate to Scotland, being held back and treated like crap whilst being milked dry..
    Which is the opposite of what actually happened after the Union. Scotland led the way intellectually, scientifically and in empire building and more than matched England industrially.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I'm not touching Biden; there is a very material risk that his health prevents him from sealing that "formality" of becoming the candidate.

    We won't see anything of the intensive behind the scenes medical checks the Democrats are going to insist upon before the Convention. Ask yourself this: if you were headhunting the post of CEO of a FTSE 100 company, would you appoint Biden, having heard what he has said in the media in recent months? Let's face it, he wouldn't get on the long list.

    I would have thought that a (basically dead) candidate would suit the Democrats perfectly.
    Even post-Covid injecting bleach Trump will make hay with a brain-dead Biden.

    "His mind is so far gone, he can't even remember he was so corrupt...."
    I think, though, that Trump is becoming as toxic in 2020 as Hillary was in 2016.
    You'd hope, but... He can still rally the nation by blaming China. That may be a far more potent issue come November.
    Try to win re-election by whipping the nation into a frenzy of sinophobia?

    Trump wouldn't do a dreadful thing like that surely?
    Take it to the bank. Along with your winnings on Trump.

    "China lied and people died."
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Talking of images....

    Moth du Jour: Silver Y, a very common migrant from Europe.

    Moth trivia: the moth that landed on Ronaldo's face at the 2016 Euro's was a Silver Y. Huge numbers of them were attrated to the spotlights at the ground.


  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999


    There is a huge market out there for guys 40-70 who want to buy smart, top quality yet slightly edgy clothing.

    And they should be discouraged in that enterprise as much as possible. If you can't wear a standard classic cut or afford the expensive bespoke alternative, go straight to beige poly cotton and velcro strap shoes.

    My particular bugbear du jour is vividly patterned shirts with even more vividly patterned contrasting lining on the inners of collars and cuffs, usually top 2 buttons undone and straining over a medicine ball belly. Clarkson is a bit of a one for that type of thing.

    Almost as bad as those v neck sweaters with a sewn-in insert of a shirt collar; I hope everyone agrees that they were the sperm of Satan.
    They are horriffic.

    I feel more sympathy for the older man who wants to wear loud shirts then you do though. Nobody wants to become invisible as they age.
    I feel a twinge of sympathy, mainly for them being suckered into oldest swinger in town territory.

    I think I'll be reasonably happy to slip into well tailored invisibility, with the occasional waving of my stick at whippersnappers.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    Do you know the most depressing thing for me - on top of everything else? Despite being surrounded by the most beautiful countryside (and, now 3 ewes and their lambs who have taken residence outside our front door) and despite the glorious weather and having all the time in the world to garden I have NO ACTUAL GARDEN.

    None. It is unbelievably depressing, the sort of cosmically bad joke at my expense which makes me believe in a malicious God tormenting humans just for the sheer hell of it.

    I could buy a few pots and stick some plants in them but that is not proper gardening. If only the bloody landlord had laid down earth rather than bloody slate chippings I could be creating something beautiful and worthwhile and even growing my own food.

    But no - I stare at sheep who eat, sleep and walk round the hills - and realise that I am now living the life of a sheep.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
    Why? No other epidemic for a hundred years had been so. Be very wary of using the word "obviously".

    Asian flu 33,000, Hong Kong flu 80,000, HIV? A new infectious disease is either a mass phenomenon or it's a nothingburger, so I don't see how the highly dubious claim that government is not about individuals applies.
    Has the government response been similar in all cases?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
    Why? No other epidemic for a hundred years had been so. Be very wary of using the word "obviously".

    Indeed. I was convinced it would be just another bad flu season and hysteria like SARS that ended up not actually killing many. To the point eadric said he'd buy dinner if I was right and that still seemed plausible until late February let alone January.

    Happy to put my hand up and say I was wrong.
    Certainly obvious by late February. Dozens of towns in northern Italy were locked down on 22nd February, so it was definitely obvious by then that urgent strong action was needed - actually a couple of weeks earlier
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    Anyone care to have a bash at what 'brought forward presentationally' means?

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1256484572293931011?s=20

    Spun.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    Anyone care to have a bash at what 'brought forward presentationally' means?

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1256484572293931011?s=20

    They fibbed about how (and when) they made it?

    Not that anyone gives a damn.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    New data seen by ministers and government scientists shows the proportion of severely obese people in ICUs is twice the proportion in the general population.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/uk-scientists-coronavirus-obesity-link

    Not really news as Witty mentioned being a fatty was an issue in his talk the other day.

    Let's just face it, Covid makes a bee-line for anybody in a mobililty scooter...

    Late summer, you'll be spoilt for choice on ebay.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149

    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'm just happy that we are so easily able to solve all the problems of our former colony. I'm sure many regret we let it go in the first place.

    Oh wait. They took it from us. And currently their administration is a reflection of a great many Americans. Just as ours is.

    It's not Trump it's the American people and they are entitled to elect whoever they damn well want. Assured, perhaps, that the smug Brits will be there with them. To criticise and make snide observations.

    Edit: God bless America.

    If American hadn't declared independence, where would it have ended up?

    Obviously, self-governance would have continued to be a thing (as it was to an extent even at the point of revolution, and in all other settler colonies) so I'm inclined to think it'd have been a much bigger and richer Canada.

    However, what would its size and boundaries have been? How would it have developed?

    No-one knows.
    Being under the yoke it would have suffered similar fate to Scotland, being held back and treated like crap whilst being milked dry..
    Which is the opposite of what actually happened after the Union. Scotland led the way intellectually, scientifically and in empire building and more than matched England industrially.
    Funny the way certain narratives can emerge.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
    And my entire point is that it is wholly characteristic and unsurprising that it took until March for the government to move into high gear over something that became 'obvious' in late January.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    I think layers of Trump are missing the possibility of the election not being free and fair. It's easy to be cynical about this and point to the chads in 2000, gerrymandering, and various vote suppression efforts over the years and to conclude that it's priced in to the baseline of previous elections.

    I think it's worth reminding yourself what this President is like, the sorts of people he praises and the actions they take.

    In a dispute between armed fascists and anyone who isn't wearing Trump merchandise, Trump supports the fascists. The very good people. If these people protest "election fraud" on voting day in strongly Democrat precincts, how many votes does Biden lose as a result?

    These people believe that the Democrats would need to steal the election to defeat Trump. They won't watch it happen. Fascists don't peacefully sit by while their opponents vote against them.

    After the fact Republicans will argue that turnout was depressed by fear of the virus, or because Biden was a poor candidate, to minimise the effect of violence preventing people from voting. The election will have been stolen and it will be too late to do anything about it.

    This is complicated though - Trump has the audacity and the Supreme Court, but the Dems have the swing state governorships, so if Trump tries to create chaos they may be able to use it to their advantage.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    Do you know the most depressing thing for me - on top of everything else? Despite being surrounded by the most beautiful countryside (and, now 3 ewes and their lambs who have taken residence outside our front door) and despite the glorious weather and having all the time in the world to garden I have NO ACTUAL GARDEN.

    None. It is unbelievably depressing, the sort of cosmically bad joke at my expense which makes me believe in a malicious God tormenting humans just for the sheer hell of it.

    I could buy a few pots and stick some plants in them but that is not proper gardening. If only the bloody landlord had laid down earth rather than bloody slate chippings I could be creating something beautiful and worthwhile and even growing my own food.

    But no - I stare at sheep who eat, sleep and walk round the hills - and realise that I am now living the life of a sheep.

    Buy a few pots and stick some plants in them. It is proper gardening when it is your only option. Get some peonies, for example - they are happy as Larry on his holidays in pots. Then move them with you.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited May 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    Do you know the most depressing thing for me - on top of everything else? Despite being surrounded by the most beautiful countryside (and, now 3 ewes and their lambs who have taken residence outside our front door) and despite the glorious weather and having all the time in the world to garden I have NO ACTUAL GARDEN.

    None. It is unbelievably depressing, the sort of cosmically bad joke at my expense which makes me believe in a malicious God tormenting humans just for the sheer hell of it.

    I could buy a few pots and stick some plants in them but that is not proper gardening. If only the bloody landlord had laid down earth rather than bloody slate chippings I could be creating something beautiful and worthwhile and even growing my own food.

    But no - I stare at sheep who eat, sleep and walk round the hills - and realise that I am now living the life of a sheep.

    'The Life of a Sheep' - beautiful, poetic, great title for a bucolic novel :smile:

    EDIT: 'I Stare At Sheep' is also pretty good for a psychological horror outing instead...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    DavidL said:

    So what does America need to do?

    Many of the same things as us, I would suggest. It needs to start saving, eliminate its trade deficit, improve its education for the majority, find ways to create social mobility again, bring the vampiric classes of financiers and lawyers back under control, invest in infrastructure, reduce inequality, bring alienated communities back into the mainstream. It’s an obvious list. The candidates on offer seem to not even recognise the problem.

    It's simpler and harder than that.

    They need to heal the partisan divide.

    At the moment the failure of the other side is more important than the success of the country, because the partisan divide is so deep that both sides believe that the success of the other will inevitably ruin the country.
    That would certainly help. The lack of consensus about the problems is a major part of the issue. Similarly in the UK, slightly weird obsessions on both the left and the right distract our politicians from thinking enough about the 90% in the middle. Early days but it is just possible post Covid a Boris government might by force of circumstances improve on that and if they do Starmer is smart enough not to be left behind.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    That really is encouraging. We are winning even if we have not yet worked out how to end this.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
    Why? No other epidemic for a hundred years had been so. Be very wary of using the word "obviously".

    Asian flu 33,000, Hong Kong flu 80,000, HIV? A new infectious disease is either a mass phenomenon or it's a nothingburger, so I don't see how the highly dubious claim that government is not about individuals applies.
    Has the government response been similar in all cases?
    I have no idea, but if individuals as diverse as eadric, BB and mysticrose were all buying masks the government probably should have been too. Plague like famine and war is inherently a big picture thing, and we don't expect individuals in time of war to procure their own tanks and guns and launch bespoke offensives. There is such a thing as society.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    Do you know the most depressing thing for me - on top of everything else? Despite being surrounded by the most beautiful countryside (and, now 3 ewes and their lambs who have taken residence outside our front door) and despite the glorious weather and having all the time in the world to garden I have NO ACTUAL GARDEN.

    None. It is unbelievably depressing, the sort of cosmically bad joke at my expense which makes me believe in a malicious God tormenting humans just for the sheer hell of it.

    I could buy a few pots and stick some plants in them but that is not proper gardening. If only the bloody landlord had laid down earth rather than bloody slate chippings I could be creating something beautiful and worthwhile and even growing my own food.

    But no - I stare at sheep who eat, sleep and walk round the hills - and realise that I am now living the life of a sheep.

    I do feel for ewe.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    Do you know the most depressing thing for me - on top of everything else? Despite being surrounded by the most beautiful countryside (and, now 3 ewes and their lambs who have taken residence outside our front door) and despite the glorious weather and having all the time in the world to garden I have NO ACTUAL GARDEN.

    None. It is unbelievably depressing, the sort of cosmically bad joke at my expense which makes me believe in a malicious God tormenting humans just for the sheer hell of it.

    I could buy a few pots and stick some plants in them but that is not proper gardening. If only the bloody landlord had laid down earth rather than bloody slate chippings I could be creating something beautiful and worthwhile and even growing my own food.

    But no - I stare at sheep who eat, sleep and walk round the hills - and realise that I am now living the life of a sheep.

    'The Life of a Sheep' - beautiful, poetic, great title for a bucolic novel :smile:

    EDIT: 'I Stare At Sheep' is also pretty good for a psychological horror outing instead...
    I always thought, in a crowded field, that, "do androids dream of electric sheep?" was the best Philip K DIck title.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
    Why? No other epidemic for a hundred years had been so. Be very wary of using the word "obviously".

    Asian flu 33,000, Hong Kong flu 80,000, HIV? A new infectious disease is either a mass phenomenon or it's a nothingburger, so I don't see how the highly dubious claim that government is not about individuals applies.
    Has the government response been similar in all cases?
    I have no idea, but if individuals as diverse as eadric, BB and mysticrose were all buying masks the government probably should have been too. Plague like famine and war is inherently a big picture thing, and we don't expect individuals in time of war to procure their own tanks and guns and launch bespoke offensives. There is such a thing as society.
    Maybe. Are those armed guys in the US onto something?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Incoming article from the Guardian claiming the government is fatist over claiming links between size and coronavirus.

    One imagines that, if there's one place in the country where this disease feels less like a horror movie and more like all our Christmases come at once, it's Graun Towers. This illness picks on non-white people, old and sick people, obese people, poor people. It's very nearly every -ist and -phobic rolled into one: they only need evidence that it massacres transexuals and they've got the complete set. And that's before we get to the outright deification of the NHS, and the Government having to hose down the economy with hundreds of billions in borrowed money, prop up half the entire private sector with state aid, and possibly be left to contemplate vast tax rises and a universal basic income further down the line.

    Their underwear must be so sticky from all those orgasms that they need industrial strength solvent to help peel it off.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    Do you know the most depressing thing for me - on top of everything else? Despite being surrounded by the most beautiful countryside (and, now 3 ewes and their lambs who have taken residence outside our front door) and despite the glorious weather and having all the time in the world to garden I have NO ACTUAL GARDEN.

    None. It is unbelievably depressing, the sort of cosmically bad joke at my expense which makes me believe in a malicious God tormenting humans just for the sheer hell of it.

    I could buy a few pots and stick some plants in them but that is not proper gardening. If only the bloody landlord had laid down earth rather than bloody slate chippings I could be creating something beautiful and worthwhile and even growing my own food.

    But no - I stare at sheep who eat, sleep and walk round the hills - and realise that I am now living the life of a sheep.

    I am bewildered. How on earth did you, of all people, ever choose a house without a garden?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    I remember seeing the famous Naked Gardener of Malmesbury Abbey Gardens working. Sadly, no longer with us.

    Could join in myself, but as I have a huge amount of brambles to attack today, sod that!
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
    Why? No other epidemic for a hundred years had been so. Be very wary of using the word "obviously".

    Asian flu 33,000, Hong Kong flu 80,000, HIV? A new infectious disease is either a mass phenomenon or it's a nothingburger, so I don't see how the highly dubious claim that government is not about individuals applies.
    Has the government response been similar in all cases?
    I have no idea, but if individuals as diverse as eadric, BB and mysticrose were all buying masks the government probably should have been too. Plague like famine and war is inherently a big picture thing, and we don't expect individuals in time of war to procure their own tanks and guns and launch bespoke offensives. There is such a thing as society.
    Maybe. Are those armed guys in the US onto something?
    Possibly. And come to think of it one hears wannabe military UK types claiming that standard issue kit is such rubbish that they replace it with their own.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Incoming article from the Guardian claiming the government is fatist over claiming links between size and coronavirus.

    One imagines that, if there's one place in the country where this disease feels less like a horror movie and more like all our Christmases come at once, it's Graun Towers. This illness picks on non-white people, old and sick people, obese people, poor people. It's very nearly every -ist and -phobic rolled into one: they only need evidence that it massacres transexuals and they've got the complete set. And that's before we get to the outright deification of the NHS, and the Government having to hose down the economy with hundreds of billions in borrowed money, prop up half the entire private sector with state aid, and possibly be left to contemplate vast tax rises and a universal basic income further down the line.

    Their underwear must be so sticky from all those orgasms that they need industrial strength solvent to help peel it off.
    I'm off outside, with images of gross Guardian gussets to try and forget...
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805
    kle4 said:

    Anyone care to have a bash at what 'brought forward presentationally' means?

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1256484572293931011?s=20

    Spun.
    This is what gets me about this. It should be a good news story, yet the Govt have turned it in to something else, with everyone thinking 'What else are you spinning or even lying about'. Only the most partisan would be going ' well you missed the 100,000 figure' so what was the point.

    The numbers were good. Just announce them: We have tested x today and what is more we have got the postal testing up and running with y sent out' This is with both x & y being large numbers.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    JohnO said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    Do you know the most depressing thing for me - on top of everything else? Despite being surrounded by the most beautiful countryside (and, now 3 ewes and their lambs who have taken residence outside our front door) and despite the glorious weather and having all the time in the world to garden I have NO ACTUAL GARDEN.

    None. It is unbelievably depressing, the sort of cosmically bad joke at my expense which makes me believe in a malicious God tormenting humans just for the sheer hell of it.

    I could buy a few pots and stick some plants in them but that is not proper gardening. If only the bloody landlord had laid down earth rather than bloody slate chippings I could be creating something beautiful and worthwhile and even growing my own food.

    But no - I stare at sheep who eat, sleep and walk round the hills - and realise that I am now living the life of a sheep.

    I do feel for ewe.
    Rams it home.


    Yeah, I'm gone, I'm gone.....
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    Do you know the most depressing thing for me - on top of everything else? Despite being surrounded by the most beautiful countryside (and, now 3 ewes and their lambs who have taken residence outside our front door) and despite the glorious weather and having all the time in the world to garden I have NO ACTUAL GARDEN.

    None. It is unbelievably depressing, the sort of cosmically bad joke at my expense which makes me believe in a malicious God tormenting humans just for the sheer hell of it.

    I could buy a few pots and stick some plants in them but that is not proper gardening. If only the bloody landlord had laid down earth rather than bloody slate chippings I could be creating something beautiful and worthwhile and even growing my own food.

    But no - I stare at sheep who eat, sleep and walk round the hills - and realise that I am now living the life of a sheep.

    We're less like sheep and more like battery hens at the moment.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    Do you know the most depressing thing for me - on top of everything else? Despite being surrounded by the most beautiful countryside (and, now 3 ewes and their lambs who have taken residence outside our front door) and despite the glorious weather and having all the time in the world to garden I have NO ACTUAL GARDEN.

    None. It is unbelievably depressing, the sort of cosmically bad joke at my expense which makes me believe in a malicious God tormenting humans just for the sheer hell of it.

    I could buy a few pots and stick some plants in them but that is not proper gardening. If only the bloody landlord had laid down earth rather than bloody slate chippings I could be creating something beautiful and worthwhile and even growing my own food.

    But no - I stare at sheep who eat, sleep and walk round the hills - and realise that I am now living the life of a sheep.

    Pots can be great. Start a sempervivum collection.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
    Why? No other epidemic for a hundred years had been so. Be very wary of using the word "obviously".

    Asian flu 33,000, Hong Kong flu 80,000, HIV? A new infectious disease is either a mass phenomenon or it's a nothingburger, so I don't see how the highly dubious claim that government is not about individuals applies.
    Has the government response been similar in all cases?
    I have no idea, but if individuals as diverse as eadric, BB and mysticrose were all buying masks the government probably should have been too. Plague like famine and war is inherently a big picture thing, and we don't expect individuals in time of war to procure their own tanks and guns and launch bespoke offensives. There is such a thing as society.
    We're not all that diverse - as far as I can tell, the only common thread that unites us is that we're hypochondriac scaredy-cats :wink:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Incoming article from the Guardian claiming the government is fatist over claiming links between size and coronavirus.

    One imagines that, if there's one place in the country where this disease feels less like a horror movie and more like all our Christmases come at once, it's Graun Towers. This illness picks on non-white people, old and sick people, obese people, poor people. It's very nearly every -ist and -phobic rolled into one: they only need evidence that it massacres transexuals and they've got the complete set. And that's before we get to the outright deification of the NHS, and the Government having to hose down the economy with hundreds of billions in borrowed money, prop up half the entire private sector with state aid, and possibly be left to contemplate vast tax rises and a universal basic income further down the line.

    Their underwear must be so sticky from all those orgasms that they need industrial strength solvent to help peel it off.
    Yes but a lot of foxes being shot also.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'm just happy that we are so easily able to solve all the problems of our former colony. I'm sure many regret we let it go in the first place.

    Oh wait. They took it from us. And currently their administration is a reflection of a great many Americans. Just as ours is.

    It's not Trump it's the American people and they are entitled to elect whoever they damn well want. Assured, perhaps, that the smug Brits will be there with them. To criticise and make snide observations.

    Edit: God bless America.

    If American hadn't declared independence, where would it have ended up?

    Obviously, self-governance would have continued to be a thing (as it was to an extent even at the point of revolution, and in all other settler colonies) so I'm inclined to think it'd have been a much bigger and richer Canada.

    However, what would its size and boundaries have been? How would it have developed?

    No-one knows.
    Being under the yoke it would have suffered similar fate to Scotland, being held back and treated like crap whilst being milked dry..
    Which is the opposite of what actually happened after the Union. Scotland led the way intellectually, scientifically and in empire building and more than matched England industrially.
    Funny the way certain narratives can emerge.
    What actually happened was that the cream of Scottish society was extracted to run colonial possessions whilst the poor were used to fill the British army to garrison the holdings. The Treasure that flowed back went to the London treasury not Scotland.

    For all that the Scots 'ran' the Empire the betterment did not go proportionally to Scotland. Scotland was drained to power the empire.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Good thread.

    I'd say Biden is about 6/4 to win the Presidency.

    If he doesn't, Trump will.

    Remaining options <1%
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    Incoming article from the Guardian claiming the government is fatist over claiming links between size and coronavirus.

    One imagines that, if there's one place in the country where this disease feels less like a horror movie and more like all our Christmases come at once, it's Graun Towers. This illness picks on non-white people, old and sick people, obese people, poor people. It's very nearly every -ist and -phobic rolled into one: they only need evidence that it massacres transexuals and they've got the complete set. And that's before we get to the outright deification of the NHS, and the Government having to hose down the economy with hundreds of billions in borrowed money, prop up half the entire private sector with state aid, and possibly be left to contemplate vast tax rises and a universal basic income further down the line.

    Their underwear must be so sticky from all those orgasms that they need industrial strength solvent to help peel it off.
    And don't forget the regulation, the bullying, the shame facing of those not clapping loud enough, the petty bureaucracy of it all. Just catnip.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
    Why? No other epidemic for a hundred years had been so. Be very wary of using the word "obviously".

    Asian flu 33,000, Hong Kong flu 80,000, HIV? A new infectious disease is either a mass phenomenon or it's a nothingburger, so I don't see how the highly dubious claim that government is not about individuals applies.
    Has the government response been similar in all cases?
    I have no idea, but if individuals as diverse as eadric, BB and mysticrose were all buying masks the government probably should have been too. Plague like famine and war is inherently a big picture thing, and we don't expect individuals in time of war to procure their own tanks and guns and launch bespoke offensives. There is such a thing as society.
    You're not saying Bluestblue is one of SeanT's too? Christ alive, the man is a menace.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2020
    Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'm just happy that we are so easily able to solve all the problems of our former colony. I'm sure many regret we let it go in the first place.

    Oh wait. They took it from us. And currently their administration is a reflection of a great many Americans. Just as ours is.

    It's not Trump it's the American people and they are entitled to elect whoever they damn well want. Assured, perhaps, that the smug Brits will be there with them. To criticise and make snide observations.

    Edit: God bless America.

    If American hadn't declared independence, where would it have ended up?

    Obviously, self-governance would have continued to be a thing (as it was to an extent even at the point of revolution, and in all other settler colonies) so I'm inclined to think it'd have been a much bigger and richer Canada.

    However, what would its size and boundaries have been? How would it have developed?

    No-one knows.
    Being under the yoke it would have suffered similar fate to Scotland, being held back and treated like crap whilst being milked dry..
    Which is the opposite of what actually happened after the Union. Scotland led the way intellectually, scientifically and in empire building and more than matched England industrially.
    Funny the way certain narratives can emerge.
    What actually happened was that the cream of Scottish society was extracted to run colonial possessions whilst the poor were used to fill the British army to garrison the holdings. The Treasure that flowed back went to the London treasury not Scotland.

    For all that the Scots 'ran' the Empire the betterment did not go proportionally to Scotland. Scotland was drained to power the empire.
    Oh give over.

    Scotland was and is and always will be a first world developed nation. Betterment absolutely went proportionately to Scotland which is why it still is a first world nation. It will be whether Scotland remains part of the UK or leaves the UK. It will be whether in the EU or out.

    Independence or not is the vanity of small differences. I think you'd be better off with it but don't pretend Scotland within the UK is too wee or too poor or not developed. Its been bettered and would either way.
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 694
    edited May 2020

    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    I remember seeing the famous Naked Gardener of Malmesbury Abbey Gardens working. Sadly, no longer with us.

    Could join in myself, but as I have a huge amount of brambles to attack today, sod that!
    I am working on our front garden today so maybe not.

  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    malcolmg said:

    Someone we know moonlighting as Sean perhaps
    sean thomas knox
    @thomasknox
    ·
    4m
    So here’s a thing. In late January I became obsessed with Corona after a personal brush. Read everything. By mid Feb I was convinced a pandemic/lockdown was coming our way. So I ordered my first masks. See below. If I could see this coming in mid-Feb, why couldn’t the government?

    This is a silly argument as well. I bought my first N95 masks in late January (and have the Amazon records to prove it!), then set about spending a fairly obscene amount of money to make sure that my family and I were essentially equipped for siege.

    Whilst it would of course have been wonderful for the Government to have shown equivalent foresight and proactivity, I'm in no way surprised or even disappointed that they didn't. There's a reason why 'moving at the speed of government' exists as an expression and not in a complimentary sense. It's one of the philosophical reasons why I'm a conservative and a libertarian - the individual will in many cases be able to act more quickly, flexibly, and intelligently in their own interests that any government could.

    Plus governments quite rightly have to look at the big picture, balancing individual outcomes versus those of the country as a whole. An epidemiologist or an economist who thinks in terms of the survival of an individual as opposed to that of thousands or millions is simply not doing their job properly - they're like the planners in Dr. Strangelove who consult books called 'Global Casualties in Megadeaths'.

    TL;DR: Governments generally do no fail to adequately care for the individual because they are evil or incompetent (though they may be both): they fail to do so _because they are governments_.
    In late January this was obviously likely to be about the survival of at least tens and possibly hundreds of thousands of individuals. Looks pretty big picture stuff to me.
    Why? No other epidemic for a hundred years had been so. Be very wary of using the word "obviously".

    Asian flu 33,000, Hong Kong flu 80,000, HIV? A new infectious disease is either a mass phenomenon or it's a nothingburger, so I don't see how the highly dubious claim that government is not about individuals applies.
    Has the government response been similar in all cases?
    I have no idea, but if individuals as diverse as eadric, BB and mysticrose were all buying masks the government probably should have been too. Plague like famine and war is inherently a big picture thing, and we don't expect individuals in time of war to procure their own tanks and guns and launch bespoke offensives. There is such a thing as society.
    You're not saying Bluestblue is one of SeanT's too? Christ alive, the man is a menace.
    That would be pretty Byronic... :wink:
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    China deliberately suppressed or destroyed evidence of the coronavirus outbreak in an “assault on international transparency’’ that cost tens of thousands of lives, according to a dossier prepared by concerned Western governments on the COVID-19 contagion.

    The 15-page research document, obtained by The Saturday Telegraph, lays the foundation for the case of negligence being mounted against China.

    It states that to the “endangerment of other countries” the Chinese government covered-up news of the virus by silencing or “disappearing” doctors who spoke out, destroying evidence of it in laboratories and refusing to provide live samples to international scientists who were working on a vaccine.


    https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/coronavirus/bombshell-dossier-lays-out-case-against-chinese-bat-virus-program/news-story/55add857058731c9c71c0e96ad17da60
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'm just happy that we are so easily able to solve all the problems of our former colony. I'm sure many regret we let it go in the first place.

    Oh wait. They took it from us. And currently their administration is a reflection of a great many Americans. Just as ours is.

    It's not Trump it's the American people and they are entitled to elect whoever they damn well want. Assured, perhaps, that the smug Brits will be there with them. To criticise and make snide observations.

    Edit: God bless America.

    If American hadn't declared independence, where would it have ended up?

    Obviously, self-governance would have continued to be a thing (as it was to an extent even at the point of revolution, and in all other settler colonies) so I'm inclined to think it'd have been a much bigger and richer Canada.

    However, what would its size and boundaries have been? How would it have developed?

    No-one knows.
    Being under the yoke it would have suffered similar fate to Scotland, being held back and treated like crap whilst being milked dry..
    Which is the opposite of what actually happened after the Union. Scotland led the way intellectually, scientifically and in empire building and more than matched England industrially.
    Funny the way certain narratives can emerge.
    What actually happened was that the cream of Scottish society was extracted to run colonial possessions whilst the poor were used to fill the British army to garrison the holdings. The Treasure that flowed back went to the London treasury not Scotland.

    For all that the Scots 'ran' the Empire the betterment did not go proportionally to Scotland. Scotland was drained to power the empire.
    Yes, all those Scottish officers forced unwillingly to go and serve in the British army over two centuries. You can do a sensible class based analysis of where wealth was distributed for the whole of the UK but a nationalistic grudge viewpoint is nonsense historically. All nationalisms are sustained by myths but the Scottish Nationalism that exists today is a modern concoction based on a total denial of Scottish history. Modern Scotland evolved within the union. Scottish nationalism must be the only variety that denies some of the greatest triumphs of its nation - because they took place under the hated union.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482
    TOPPING said:

    Incoming article from the Guardian claiming the government is fatist over claiming links between size and coronavirus.

    One imagines that, if there's one place in the country where this disease feels less like a horror movie and more like all our Christmases come at once, it's Graun Towers. This illness picks on non-white people, old and sick people, obese people, poor people. It's very nearly every -ist and -phobic rolled into one: they only need evidence that it massacres transexuals and they've got the complete set. And that's before we get to the outright deification of the NHS, and the Government having to hose down the economy with hundreds of billions in borrowed money, prop up half the entire private sector with state aid, and possibly be left to contemplate vast tax rises and a universal basic income further down the line.

    Their underwear must be so sticky from all those orgasms that they need industrial strength solvent to help peel it off.
    Yes but a lot of foxes being shot also.
    Clubbed to death by a silk kimono-clad assailant is the preferred metaphor these days.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited May 2020

    Anyone care to have a bash at what 'brought forward presentationally' means?

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1256484572293931011?s=20

    It means fiddled. The sort of thing that erodes trust and is really quite harmful.

    For example - is Captain Tom really 100?

    Or is he 98 with a couple of years "brought forward"?

    People will be asking that sort of thing now and it's a shame.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    DavidL said:

    That really is encouraging. We are winning even if we have not yet worked out how to end this.
    Wonder what the Care Home one looks like?

    As for winning i think we have lost as we are well above the "good outcome" number of deaths already.

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    DavidL said:

    Incoming article from the Guardian claiming the government is fatist over claiming links between size and coronavirus.

    One imagines that, if there's one place in the country where this disease feels less like a horror movie and more like all our Christmases come at once, it's Graun Towers. This illness picks on non-white people, old and sick people, obese people, poor people. It's very nearly every -ist and -phobic rolled into one: they only need evidence that it massacres transexuals and they've got the complete set. And that's before we get to the outright deification of the NHS, and the Government having to hose down the economy with hundreds of billions in borrowed money, prop up half the entire private sector with state aid, and possibly be left to contemplate vast tax rises and a universal basic income further down the line.

    Their underwear must be so sticky from all those orgasms that they need industrial strength solvent to help peel it off.
    And don't forget the regulation, the bullying, the shame facing of those not clapping loud enough, the petty bureaucracy of it all. Just catnip.
    Oh God yes, the bloody clapping. Having to justify to people why you won't open the front door and stand outside banging a frying pan with a wooden spoon and making wailing noises every Thursday at 8pm. Cos if you don't emote loudly and publicly enough it means you DON'T CARE, and are therefore a heartless Tory deserving of a slow, painful and lingering death.

    I've had to argue the toss with my own mother over the stupid bloody clapping. One more thing about the present miserable situation I'll be glad to see the back of, whichever month/year it's finally over.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    USA 4.25% of total World Population 27.41% of total reported World deaths and Trump is going to "win"?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,317
    edited May 2020
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    Do you know the most depressing thing for me - on top of everything else? Despite being surrounded by the most beautiful countryside (and, now 3 ewes and their lambs who have taken residence outside our front door) and despite the glorious weather and having all the time in the world to garden I have NO ACTUAL GARDEN.

    None. It is unbelievably depressing, the sort of cosmically bad joke at my expense which makes me believe in a malicious God tormenting humans just for the sheer hell of it.

    I could buy a few pots and stick some plants in them but that is not proper gardening. If only the bloody landlord had laid down earth rather than bloody slate chippings I could be creating something beautiful and worthwhile and even growing my own food.

    But no - I stare at sheep who eat, sleep and walk round the hills - and realise that I am now living the life of a sheep.

    I am bewildered. How on earth did you, of all people, ever choose a house without a garden?
    It was that or homelessness. Seriously.

    Our house is in the middle of rebuilding. Daughter and I were temporarily house-sitting due to come to an end on March 24. We got a short-term holiday let and were due to move in at the end of it. Then lockdown happened.

    Sofa surfing for me, daughter & 3 cats not an option, especially not given my health issues. Holiday lets no longer an option and not much else to rent either. This barely completed barn conversion ( really meant for holiday letting) was the only thing on offer for a long-term tenancy since God knows when house will be finished.

    And, to be fair, the house is comfortable and the surrounding countryside and the views and the walks outstanding. But landlords far away tend not to create gardens given the maintenance involved.

    Perhaps I could offer to create one for him - or at least design one.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Rook, it is rather cultish.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    kinabalu said:

    Anyone care to have a bash at what 'brought forward presentationally' means?

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1256484572293931011?s=20

    It means fiddled. The sort of thing that erodes trust and is really quite harmful.

    For example - is Captain Tom really 100?

    Or is he 98 with a couple of years "brought forward"?

    People will be asking that sort of thing now and it's a shame.
    I think his zimmer frame`s a front. I`m sure I`ve seen him jogging round the park.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    UK 0.87% of World Population 11.51% of World reported deaths and yet we are "winning"
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Incoming article from the Guardian claiming the government is fatist over claiming links between size and coronavirus.

    One imagines that, if there's one place in the country where this disease feels less like a horror movie and more like all our Christmases come at once, it's Graun Towers. This illness picks on non-white people, old and sick people, obese people, poor people. It's very nearly every -ist and -phobic rolled into one: they only need evidence that it massacres transexuals and they've got the complete set. And that's before we get to the outright deification of the NHS, and the Government having to hose down the economy with hundreds of billions in borrowed money, prop up half the entire private sector with state aid, and possibly be left to contemplate vast tax rises and a universal basic income further down the line.

    Their underwear must be so sticky from all those orgasms that they need industrial strength solvent to help peel it off.
    Yes - exciting times for those of us on the left.

    Thank you comrade corona.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited May 2020

    Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'm just happy that we are so easily able to solve all the problems of our former colony. I'm sure many regret we let it go in the first place.

    Oh wait. They took it from us. And currently their administration is a reflection of a great many Americans. Just as ours is.

    It's not Trump it's the American people and they are entitled to elect whoever they damn well want. Assured, perhaps, that the smug Brits will be there with them. To criticise and make snide observations.

    Edit: God bless America.

    If American hadn't declared independence, where would it have ended up?

    Obviously, self-governance would have continued to be a thing (as it was to an extent even at the point of revolution, and in all other settler colonies) so I'm inclined to think it'd have been a much bigger and richer Canada.

    However, what would its size and boundaries have been? How would it have developed?

    No-one knows.
    Being under the yoke it would have suffered similar fate to Scotland, being held back and treated like crap whilst being milked dry..
    Which is the opposite of what actually happened after the Union. Scotland led the way intellectually, scientifically and in empire building and more than matched England industrially.
    Funny the way certain narratives can emerge.
    What actually happened was that the cream of Scottish society was extracted to run colonial possessions whilst the poor were used to fill the British army to garrison the holdings. The Treasure that flowed back went to the London treasury not Scotland.

    For all that the Scots 'ran' the Empire the betterment did not go proportionally to Scotland. Scotland was drained to power the empire.
    Yes, all those Scottish officers forced unwillingly to go and serve in the British army over two centuries. You can do a sensible class based analysis of where wealth was distributed for the whole of the UK but a nationalistic grudge viewpoint is nonsense historically. All nationalisms are sustained by myths but the Scottish Nationalism that exists today is a modern concoction based on a total denial of Scottish history. Modern Scotland evolved within the union. Scottish nationalism must be the only variety that denies some of the greatest triumphs of its nation - because they took place under the hated union.
    Speaking of nationalist myths, a persistent British nationalist/Unionist myth appears to simultaneously believe that Scotland benefited and still benefits hugely from being part of the Union, and yet among smallish, well educated European nations with developed & diverse industries, substantial natural resources and stable civic polities, is uniquely ill suited to independence. Even smarter Unionists seem unable to square this circle in their own heads, let alone to my satisfaction.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    I remember seeing the famous Naked Gardener of Malmesbury Abbey Gardens working. Sadly, no longer with us.

    Could join in myself, but as I have a huge amount of brambles to attack today, sod that!
    Can`t be worse than snagging one`s foreskin on barbed wire.

    Oh, the follies of youth!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Today is World Naked Gardening Day. (No, I don’t know why either.)

    Do you know the most depressing thing for me - on top of everything else? Despite being surrounded by the most beautiful countryside (and, now 3 ewes and their lambs who have taken residence outside our front door) and despite the glorious weather and having all the time in the world to garden I have NO ACTUAL GARDEN.

    None. It is unbelievably depressing, the sort of cosmically bad joke at my expense which makes me believe in a malicious God tormenting humans just for the sheer hell of it.

    I could buy a few pots and stick some plants in them but that is not proper gardening. If only the bloody landlord had laid down earth rather than bloody slate chippings I could be creating something beautiful and worthwhile and even growing my own food.

    But no - I stare at sheep who eat, sleep and walk round the hills - and realise that I am now living the life of a sheep.

    I am bewildered. How on earth did you, of all people, ever choose a house without a garden?
    It was that or homelessness. Seriously.

    Our house is in the middle of rebuilding. Daughter and I were temporarily house-sitting due to come to an end on March 24. We got a short-term holiday let and were due to move in at the end of it. Then lockdown happened.

    Sofa surfing for me, daughter & 3 cats not an option, especially not given my health issues. Holiday lets no longer an option and not much else to rent either. This barely completed barn conversion ( really meant for holiday letting) was the only thing on offer for a long-term tenancy since God knows when house will be finished.

    And, to be fair, the house is comfortable and the surrounding countryside and the views and the walks outstanding. But landlords far away tend not to create gardens given the maintenance involved.

    Perhaps I could offer to create one for him - or at least design one.
    You absolutely should. Perhaps with some water features? That might tempt them.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    kinabalu said:

    Anyone care to have a bash at what 'brought forward presentationally' means?

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1256484572293931011?s=20

    It means fiddled. The sort of thing that erodes trust and is really quite harmful.

    For example - is Captain Tom really 100?

    Or is he 98 with a couple of years "brought forward"?

    People will be asking that sort of thing now and it's a shame.
    One of the worst things about not waiting for the result is we will not know the transmission rate as the test is included but the result is neither positive or negative.

    It is inevitable we will have hundreds of thousands in the not yet known category as this madness continues
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    China deliberately suppressed or destroyed evidence of the coronavirus outbreak in an “assault on international transparency’’ that cost tens of thousands of lives, according to a dossier prepared by concerned Western governments on the COVID-19 contagion.

    The 15-page research document, obtained by The Saturday Telegraph, lays the foundation for the case of negligence being mounted against China.

    It states that to the “endangerment of other countries” the Chinese government covered-up news of the virus by silencing or “disappearing” doctors who spoke out, destroying evidence of it in laboratories and refusing to provide live samples to international scientists who were working on a vaccine.


    https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/coronavirus/bombshell-dossier-lays-out-case-against-chinese-bat-virus-program/news-story/55add857058731c9c71c0e96ad17da60

    but, but , but Tyson said they were transparent.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    kjh said:

    kle4 said:

    Anyone care to have a bash at what 'brought forward presentationally' means?

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1256484572293931011?s=20

    Spun.
    This is what gets me about this. It should be a good news story, yet the Govt have turned it in to something else, with everyone thinking 'What else are you spinning or even lying about'. Only the most partisan would be going ' well you missed the 100,000 figure' so what was the point.

    The numbers were good. Just announce them: We have tested x today and what is more we have got the postal testing up and running with y sent out' This is with both x & y being large numbers.
    Exactly - an object lesson in how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

  • There is a huge market out there for guys 40-70 who want to buy smart, top quality yet slightly edgy clothing.

    And they should be discouraged in that enterprise as much as possible. If you can't wear a standard classic cut or afford the expensive bespoke alternative, go straight to beige poly cotton and velcro strap shoes.

    My particular bugbear du jour is vividly patterned shirts with even more vividly patterned contrasting lining on the inners of collars and cuffs, usually top 2 buttons undone and straining over a medicine ball belly. Clarkson is a bit of a one for that type of thing.

    Almost as bad as those v neck sweaters with a sewn-in insert of a shirt collar; I hope everyone agrees that they were the sperm of Satan.
    They are horriffic.

    I feel more sympathy for the older man who wants to wear loud shirts then you do though. Nobody wants to become invisible as they age.
    Are checked shirts OK?

    Asking for a friend
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Owls, you could make similar statistical claims, for what they're worth, about France, Spain, or Italy.

    The trend is a good one. It's moving in the right direction. It's good news.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Alistair said:

    kle4 said:

    malcolmg said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'm just happy that we are so easily able to solve all the problems of our former colony. I'm sure many regret we let it go in the first place.

    Oh wait. They took it from us. And currently their administration is a reflection of a great many Americans. Just as ours is.

    It's not Trump it's the American people and they are entitled to elect whoever they damn well want. Assured, perhaps, that the smug Brits will be there with them. To criticise and make snide observations.

    Edit: God bless America.

    If American hadn't declared independence, where would it have ended up?

    Obviously, self-governance would have continued to be a thing (as it was to an extent even at the point of revolution, and in all other settler colonies) so I'm inclined to think it'd have been a much bigger and richer Canada.

    However, what would its size and boundaries have been? How would it have developed?

    No-one knows.
    Being under the yoke it would have suffered similar fate to Scotland, being held back and treated like crap whilst being milked dry..
    Which is the opposite of what actually happened after the Union. Scotland led the way intellectually, scientifically and in empire building and more than matched England industrially.
    Funny the way certain narratives can emerge.
    What actually happened was that the cream of Scottish society was extracted to run colonial possessions whilst the poor were used to fill the British army to garrison the holdings. The Treasure that flowed back went to the London treasury not Scotland.

    For all that the Scots 'ran' the Empire the betterment did not go proportionally to Scotland. Scotland was drained to power the empire.
    Yes, all those Scottish officers forced unwillingly to go and serve in the British army over two centuries. You can do a sensible class based analysis of where wealth was distributed for the whole of the UK but a nationalistic grudge viewpoint is nonsense historically. All nationalisms are sustained by myths but the Scottish Nationalism that exists today is a modern concoction based on a total denial of Scottish history. Modern Scotland evolved within the union. Scottish nationalism must be the only variety that denies some of the greatest triumphs of its nation - because they took place under the hated union.
    Speaking of nationalist myths, a persistent British nationalist/Unionist myth appears to simultaneously believe that Scotland benefited and still benefits hugely from being part of the Union, and yet among smallish, well educated European nations with developed & diverse industries, substantial natural resources and stable civic polities, is uniquely ill suited to independence. Even smarter Unionists seem unable to square this circle in their own heads, let alone to my satisfaction.
    Yet the SNP felt the need to base their case on ridiculously inflated oil prices - go figure.
This discussion has been closed.