Mr. Roberts, it's not the biological differences, it's the cultural differences. Gender segregation is not something that helps our society, nor is it an acceptable vestige of a foreign culture. It has no place in a civilised country.
Then stop the gender segregation, secularise all places of learning, stop girls and boys being educated separately by any religious bodies which attract state funding.Or within any educational establishment.
I'll vote for that. Which party's manifesto is it in?
Problem is that as Tim well knows it is not just religious schools who have separation of children by gender. The state does it as well.
Who gives a shit, none of us are going to be alive then.
Well, obviously YOU don't care a shit if your grandchildren live in a multicultural hell.
The same arguments used against Jewish immigrants over and over again.
Perhaps people don't want to live in a multi-cultural society which has gender segregation at seats of learning because people like you refused to accept that there are certain types of immigrants who don't enrich our society but reintroduce evils we fought hard to get rid of or never thought to see in our country.
I'd be interested to know which religions you want to vet at the border and which ones don't see women as second class citizens. I'm guessing here that you aren't railing against Irish nuns running girls schools or the Stamford Hill Mikvah
Pathetic fishing. I'll help you out: we need to stop the Muslamics. It's not hard. Stop all immigration from majority Muslim countries. Disguise it as "key worker point system" or whatever .
In addition, make it so difficult to be a fundamentalist Muslim here (ban the burqa, jail for life female genital mutilators, extinguish cousin marriage, persecute homophobic imams, etc) that they all go home of their own accord.
Job done.
"Stop all immigration from majority Muslim countries."
Hmmm. So you would not have wanted my wife, a highly-paid, highly-skilled atheist engineer who speaks excellent English, to come in? After all, she comes from a majority Muslim country.
Total desperation here tonight from Lefties trying to score political points about a phone pic at a memorial service,,pathetic. .I wonder of the prospect of actually getting a life ever occurs to them
The 12 was clearly an outlier. 5 seems right. Labour are 3-6 points ahead. It still seems a bit too much of a mountain for Cameron to climb, despite the improving economy, thanks to Labour's built-in advantage in FPTP.
Official S K Tremayne prediction: a tiny overall majority for Ed Miliband. As things stand.
Well in December 2012, with YouGov, Labour generally had double digit leads.
Who gives a shit, none of us are going to be alive then.
Well, obviously YOU don't care a shit if your grandchildren live in a multicultural hell.
The same arguments used against Jewish immigrants over and over again.
Perhaps people don't want to live in a multi-cultural society which has gender segregation at seats of learning because people like you refused to accept that there are certain types of immigrants who don't enrich our society but reintroduce evils we fought hard to get rid of or never thought to see in our country.
I'd be interested to know which religions you want to vet at the border and which ones don't see women as second class citizens. I'm guessing here that you aren't railing against Irish nuns running girls schools or the Stamford Hill Mikvah
Pathetic fishing. I'll help you out: we need to stop the Muslamics. It's not hard. Stop all immigration from majority Muslim countries. Disguise it as "key worker point system" or whatever .
In addition, make it so difficult to be a fundamentalist Muslim here (ban the burqa, jail for life female genital mutilators, extinguish cousin marriage, persecute homophobic imams, etc) that they all go home of their own accord.
Job done.
"Stop all immigration from majority Muslim countries."
Hmmm. So you would not have wanted my wife, a highly-paid, highly-skilled atheist engineer who speaks excellent English, to come in? After all, she comes from a majority Muslim country.
Just checking.
I don't think stopping anyone coming into the country based on their country of origin is the way to go. What we need to do is insist that they abide by the rules of the country when they get here.
The problem is that much as I hate to agree with Tim, and in spite of the fact I signed the petition when it first started circulating a week or more ago, he is actually right that we practice segregation based on gender as part of our education system - though not just in religious schools as he seems to be implying.
Now I know that in my mind there is a difference and also that there is apparently plenty of evidence that girls do better in single sex education. But I also know I would really struggle to articulate why there is a difference between one type of segregation being bad and another good (or at least not bad) and I also suspect it would be damn near impossible to create a law which specifically banned segregation for religious reasons but allowed it for secular reasons.
Mr. Roberts, it's not the biological differences, it's the cultural differences. Gender segregation is not something that helps our society, nor is it an acceptable vestige of a foreign culture. It has no place in a civilised country.
Then stop the gender segregation, secularise all places of learning, stop girls and boys being educated separately by any religious bodies which attract state funding.Or within any educational establishment.
tim ae you defending the Islamists insistence on segregation? They are the ones calling for it, not any other group.
Exactly Sunil. I'm sure Tim will do his bit by signing the petition against such segregation. And Ina answer to his question, this problem has arisen because of the creed of Islamism and the pathetic cowardice of the university and intellectual and political establishment in the face of a fascistic creed.
There are, as far as I'm aware , no Jewish or Irish Catholic groups at university demanding that women must be segregated from men merely because the speaker is Jewish or Catholic or believes the moon is made of green cheese.
And I would feel react in exactly the same way if there were such groups. But the fact is that now we face a serious threat to our liberal views from Islamists and. If we really believe in our liberal values, we need to confront such people not indulge in pathetic whataboutery and self-congratulations over past victories.
Pitiful bleating. Thank god we didn't depend on fat, waddling appeasers like you to defend the country against the Nazis.
Sean we can always tell when you have run out of coherent arguments because you resort to the insults.
Personally I would prefer to live in a country where the law of the land applies to everyone equally rather than making exceptions for particular groups we fancy persecuting this week.
Now I know that as an ex drug addict who has disdain for most social norms and who uses his minor celebrity status as an excuse for twattish behaviour this is a concept that you might find difficult to grasp but take it from me that most people when they actually think about it want to live in that sort of country rather than one where the government can arbitrarily ban certain groups from normal life simply because of their religion. That has been tried before in a couple of countries and didn't end well. Funny actually that you should mention the Nazis in your reply.
The obvious answer would probably be to be consistent and ban all forms of gender segregation - which was the point I was making in my last post - but since you are less concerned about the actual issues and more concerned about a bit of gratuitous muslim bashing I am sure that never actually occurred to you
Who gives a shit, none of us are going to be alive then.
Well, obviously YOU don't care a shit if your grandchildren live in a multicultural hell.
The same arguments used against Jewish immigrants over and over again.
Perhaps people don't want to live in a multi-cultural society which has gender segregation at seats of learning because people like you refused to accept that there are certain types of immigrants who don't enrich our society but reintroduce evils we fought hard to get rid of or never thought to see in our country.
I'd be interested to know which religions you want to vet at the border and which ones don't see women as second class citizens. I'm guessing here that you aren't railing against Irish nuns running girls schools or the Stamford Hill Mikvah
Pathetic fishing. I'll help you out: we need to stop the Muslamics. It's not hard. Stop all immigration from majority Muslim countries. Disguise it as "key worker point system" or whatever .
In addition, make it so difficult to be a fundamentalist Muslim here (ban the burqa, jail for life female genital mutilators, extinguish cousin marriage, persecute homophobic imams, etc) that they all go home of their own accord.
Job done.
"Stop all immigration from majority Muslim countries."
Hmmm. So you would not have wanted my wife, a highly-paid, highly-skilled atheist engineer who speaks excellent English, to come in? After all, she comes from a majority Muslim country.
Just checking.
As I said in my comment, I would have a "key worker points system", so highly skilled, highly educated people WOULD be allowed, likewise the extremely wealthy, but the presumption would be No, you're not allowed, if you come from a majority Muslim country (though this would be disguised to keep Guardianista happy).
I suspect your wife would have made it in, with my system. If not, then so it goes. Plenty of British men find it hard to bring in their wives.
That's not quite what you said though, it is? The words 'all' and 'disguise' sort of give it away. Pedantic I know, but pedantry can be important.
Also note that the hideous practice of FGM is practised by some Christian and Jewish sects, and is banned in many Muslim countries. So if we stop immigration from those countries, along with any other practices we do not like (France, eating snails), then we'll have a de facto worldwide immigration ban.
Result!!!!
And for the record, I didn't bring her over. Our eyes first met over a warm signal generator in an office near Cambridge. Not many people can say they met their beloved like that. Or perhaps would want to. ;-)
Who gives a shit, none of us are going to be alive then.
Well, obviously YOU don't care a shit if your grandchildren live in a multicultural hell.
The same arguments used against Jewish immigrants over and over again.
Perhaps people don't want to live in a multi-cultural society which has gender segregation at seats of learning because people like you refused to accept that there are certain types of immigrants who don't enrich our society but reintroduce evils we fought hard to get rid of or never thought to see in our country.
Who gives a shit, none of us are going to be alive then.
Well, obviously YOU don't care a shit if your grandchildren live in a multicultural hell.
The same arguments used against Jewish immigrants over and over again.
Perhaps people don't want to live in a multi-cultural society which has gender segregation at seats of learning because people like you refused to accept that there are certain types of immigrants who don't enrich our society but reintroduce evils we fought hard to get rid of or never thought to see in our country.
I'd be interested to know which religions you want to vet at the border and which ones don't see women as second class citizens. I'm guessing here that you aren't railing against Irish nuns running girls schools or the Stamford Hill Mikvah
Pathetic fishing. I'll help you out: we need to stop the Muslamics. It's not hard. Stop all immigration from majority Muslim countries. Disguise it as "key worker point system" or whatever .
In addition, make it so difficult to be a fundamentalist Muslim here (ban the burqa, jail for life female genital mutilators, extinguish cousin marriage, persecute homophobic imams, etc) that they all go home of their own accord.
Job done.
"Stop all immigration from majority Muslim countries."
Hmmm. So you would not have wanted my wife, a highly-paid, highly-skilled atheist engineer who speaks excellent English, to come in? After all, she comes from a majority Muslim country.
Just checking.
As I said in my comment, I would have a "key worker points system", so highly skilled, highly educated people WOULD be allowed, likewise the extremely wealthy, but the presumption would be No, you're not allowed, if you come from a majority Muslim country (though this would be disguised to keep Guardianista happy).
I suspect your wife would have made it in, with my system. If not, then so it goes. Plenty of British men find it hard to bring in their wives.
If anyone listened to you his wife would've been interned after 7/7.
Well, she is apparently a "highly skilled female atheist Islamic engineer".
I think my Potential Suicide Bomber Profiling geiger counter just went critical.
Who gives a shit, none of us are going to be alive then.
Well, obviously YOU don't care a shit if your grandchildren live in a multicultural hell.
The same arguments used against Jewish immigrants over and over again.
Perhaps people don't want to live in a multi-cultural society which has gender segregation at seats of learning because people like you refused to accept that there are certain types of immigrants who don't enrich our society but reintroduce evils we fought hard to get rid of or never thought to see in our country.
I'd be interested to know which religions you want to vet at the border and which ones don't see women as second class citizens. I'm guessing here that you aren't railing against Irish nuns running girls schools or the Stamford Hill Mikvah
Pathetic fishing. I'll help you out: we need to stop the Muslamics. It's not hard. Stop all immigration from majority Muslim countries. Disguise it as "key worker point system" or whatever .
In addition, make it so difficult to be a fundamentalist Muslim here (ban the burqa, jail for life female genital mutilators, extinguish cousin marriage, persecute homophobic imams, etc) that they all go home of their own accord.
Job done.
"Stop all immigration from majority Muslim countries."
Hmmm. So you would not have wanted my wife, a highly-paid, highly-skilled atheist engineer who speaks excellent English, to come in? After all, she comes from a majority Muslim country.
Just checking.
As I said in my comment, I would have a "key worker points system", so highly skilled, highly educated people WOULD be allowed, likewise the extremely wealthy, but the presumption would be No, you're not allowed, if you come from a majority Muslim country (though this would be disguised to keep Guardianista happy).
I suspect your wife would have made it in, with my system. If not, then so it goes. Plenty of British men find it hard to bring in their wives.
That's not quite what you said though, it is? The words 'all' and 'disguise' sort of give it away. Pedantic I know, but pedantry can be important.
Also note that the hideous practice of FGM is practised by some Christian and Jewish sects, and is banned in many Muslim countries. So if we stop immigration from those countries, along with any other practices we do not like (France, eating snails), then we'll have a de facto worldwide immigration ban.
Result!!!!
And for the record, I didn't bring her over. Our eyes first met over a warm signal generator in an office near Cambridge. Not many people can say they met their beloved like that. Or perhaps would want to. ;-)
Fair play to Polly Tuscany. I may loathe everything about her, everything she does, says, thinks and believes, but she sponsored that anti-gender-segregation petition at British unis. Likewise Richard Dawkins.
The rest of the "feminist" Left is notably absent, the craven pukeheads.
Quite right about Toynbee - good on her in this instance. But why does the rest of British Left think that grovelling to bearded maniacs with silly hats and mediaeval views on women somehow makes them heroic? Is it just that they can't bear the thought of giving succour to their hated 'Tory racists' at any cost - and liberal civilization can go hang? It's very odd.
@isam murder levels in London are far lower this year than ten years ago.
Murder rates in almost every part of the country are lower than 10 years ago, including those with very low immigration. It does not prove the point Tim is always trying to make.
@isam murder levels in London are far lower this year than ten years ago.
Murder rates in almost every part of the country are lower than 10 years ago, including those with very low immigration. It does not prove the point Tim is always trying to make.
It does, however, give the lie to Enoch Powell's prediction.
Fair play to Polly Tuscany. I may loathe everything about her, everything she does, says, thinks and believes, but she sponsored that anti-gender-segregation petition at British unis. Likewise Richard Dawkins.
The rest of the "feminist" Left is notably absent, the craven pukeheads.
Quite right about Toynbee - good on her in this instance. But why does the rest of British Left think that grovelling to bearded maniacs with silly hats and mediaeval views on women somehow makes them heroic? Is it just that they can't bear the thought of giving succour to their hated 'Tory racists' at any cost - and liberal civilization can go hang? It's very odd.
Exactly.
I simply don't understand how the Left manage to square their love of all things Islam with that religions views on homosexuality, gay rights, women's rights to say nothing about disgusting practices such as FGM.
At least Toynbee seems to have woken up, can one of the Lefties please explain it to a simple soul like me please.
@isam murder levels in London are far lower this year than ten years ago.
Murder rates in almost every part of the country are lower than 10 years ago, including those with very low immigration. It does not prove the point Tim is always trying to make.
It does, however, give the lie to Enoch Powell's prediction.
The 12 was clearly an outlier. 5 seems right. Labour are 3-6 points ahead. It still seems a bit too much of a mountain for Cameron to climb, despite the improving economy, thanks to Labour's built-in advantage in FPTP.
Official S K Tremayne prediction: a tiny overall majority for Ed Miliband. As things stand.
Dave and Obama acting like gits on the Mail`s front page.
He's done a selfie and joined "TeamNigella" on the same day, he's definitely got that common touch.
It`s very heartening to see Dave looking so solemn at the funeral.
A Tory smiles at a funeral, and we never hear the end of it. A Tory smiles at a memorial service, and we never hear the end of it.
Can PB's brains trust tell us the countenance someone should have on these occasions? A stiff British upper lip, gaze straight forward and perhaps - just perhaps - the merest trace of moisture in the corner of one eye?
Mr. Roberts, it's not the biological differences, it's the cultural differences. Gender segregation is not something that helps our society, nor is it an acceptable vestige of a foreign culture. It has no place in a civilised country.
Then stop the gender segregation, secularise all places of learning, stop girls and boys being educated separately by any religious bodies which attract state funding.Or within any educational establishment.
tim ae you defending the Islamists insistence on segregation? They are the ones calling for it, not any other group.
Exactly Sunil. I'm sure Tim will do his bit by signing the petition against such segregation. And Ina answer to his question, this problem has arisen because of the creed of Islamism and the pathetic cowardice of the university and intellectual and political establishment in the face of a fascistic creed.
There are, as far as I'm aware , no Jewish or Irish Catholic groups at university demanding that women must be segregated from men merely because the speaker is Jewish or Catholic or believes the moon is made of green cheese.
And I would feel react in exactly the same way if there were such groups. But the fact is that now we face a serious threat to our liberal views from Islamists and. If we really believe them we need to confront such people not indulge in pathetic whataboutery and self-congratulations over past victories.
You'll defend to the death girls being segregated in other religious schools though no doubt, or Catholic schools right to teach religious views regarding contraception, or parents rights to segregate their own children in school classes by withdrawing them for religious reasons. If an educational establishment receives state funding why should it gender segregate at all. If religious groups want to organise on campuses and gender segregate let them go to a Mosque, a Church or a Synagogue
Don't ever presume to know what I think on a subject. I can and will speak for myself.
It is depressing that you are - apparently - unable to condemn unreservedly gender segregation imposed at a seat of learning by Islamist speakers but seek to make spurious comparisons with teaching about contraception. If you cannot see the difference between a university which has a code saying that students will be treated equally, no matter what their gender, race, sexuality etc kowtowing to an Islamist speaker insisting that women must sit separately from men then there is little point debating with you.
And, pace, Richard Tyndall: we don't need more laws to stop this. We simply need the universities to say that while speakers are welcome to give talks and speak freely - provided they don't break the laws on inciting violence etc - they cannot insist on who can attend, where they sit or impose any other conditions.
What's needed is intellectual courage. A shame we can't expect this as a matter of course from one of our top universities.
@isam murder levels in London are far lower this year than ten years ago.
Murder rates in almost every part of the country are lower than 10 years ago, including those with very low immigration. It does not prove the point Tim is always trying to make.
It does, however, give the lie to Enoch Powell's prediction.
Why?
I would say 7/7, Lee Rigby, and the demographics of London boroughs prove him to be more accurate than even he feared.
If he had somehow been able to show footage of those events, and the make up of a typical East London street in 2013 to people back in 1968, no one would have been able to believe it could possibly happen. He was guilty of underestimation
Fair play to Polly Tuscany. I may loathe everything about her, everything she does, says, thinks and believes, but she sponsored that anti-gender-segregation petition at British unis. Likewise Richard Dawkins.
The rest of the "feminist" Left is notably absent, the craven pukeheads.
Quite right about Toynbee - good on her in this instance. But why does the rest of British Left think that grovelling to bearded maniacs with silly hats and mediaeval views on women somehow makes them heroic? Is it just that they can't bear the thought of giving succour to their hated 'Tory racists' at any cost - and liberal civilization can go hang? It's very odd.
Exactly.
I simply don't understand how the Left manage to square their love of all things Islam with that religions views on homosexuality, gay rights, women's rights to say nothing about disgusting practices such as FGM.
At least Toynbee seems to have woken up, can one of the Lefties please explain it to a simple soul like me please.
It's really very simple. Orwell nailed this years ago. My enemy's enemy is my friend. Islamists hate America and Israel and are oppressed people. Ergo they are lionised by the stupid and intellectually dishonest Left. (Not all on the Left are dishonourable. There are some who still value the liberal values so hard won over generations.)
Mr. Roberts, it's not the biological differences, it's the cultural differences. Gender segregation is not something that helps our society, nor is it an acceptable vestige of a foreign culture. It has no place in a civilised country.
Then stop the gender segregation, secularise all places of learning, stop girls and boys being educated separately by any religious bodies which attract state funding.Or within any educational establishment.
tim ae you defending the Islamists insistence on segregation? They are the ones calling for it, not any other group.
Exactly Sunil. I'm sure Tim will do his bit by signing the petition against such segregation. And Ina answer to his question, this problem has arisen because of the creed of Islamism and the pathetic cowardice of the university and intellectual and political establishment in the face of a fascistic creed.
There are, as far as I'm aware , no Jewish or Irish Catholic groups at university demanding that women must be segregated from men merely because the speaker is Jewish or Catholic or believes the moon is made of green cheese.
And I would feel react in exactly the same way if there were such groups. But the fact is that now we face a serious threat to our liberal views from Islamists and. If we really believe them we need to confront such people not indulge in pathetic whataboutery and self-congratulations over past victories.
You'll defend to the death girls being segregated in other religious schools though no doubt, or Catholic schools right to teach religious views regarding contraception, or parents rights to segregate their own children in school classes by withdrawing them for religious reasons. If an educational establishment receives state funding why should it gender segregate at all. If religious groups want to organise on campuses and gender segregate let them go to a Mosque, a Church or a Synagogue
Don't ever presume to know what I think on a subject. I can and will speak for myself.
It is depressing that you are - apparently - unable to condemn unreservedly gender segregation imposed at a seat of learning by Islamist speakers but seek to make spurious comparisons with teaching about contraception. If you cannot see the difference between a university which has a code saying that students will be treated equally, no matter what their gender, race, sexuality etc kowtowing to an Islamist speaker insisting that women must sit separately from men then there is little point debating with you.
And, pace, Richard Tyndall: we don't need more laws to stop this. We simply need the universities to say that while speakers are welcome to give talks and speak freely - provided they don't break the laws on inciting violence etc - they cannot insist on who can attend, where they sit or impose any other conditions.
What's needed is intellectual courage. A shame we can't expect this as a matter of course from one of our top universities.
Of course I condemn it, didn't you read what I posted?
Good. And as I missed it, my apologies. You can still sign the petition. The more signatures the better. The link is below.
Also, given the rather shambolic memorial for Mandela today, empty seats, noisy backround not to mention the open air venue in the rain despite a hundred world leaders (and an excellent speech by Obama in the circumstances) can I suggest as we do state occasions better than anywhere else, we offer the choir of Westminster Abbey, the Archbishop of Canterbury the Grenadier Guards and military organisers to nations around the world to organise funerals and memorials when statesmen pop their clogs?
Dave and Obama acting like gits on the Mail`s front page.
He's done a selfie and joined "TeamNigella" on the same day, he's definitely got that common touch.
It`s very heartening to see Dave looking so solemn at the funeral.
A Tory smiles at a funeral, and we never hear the end of it. A Tory smiles at a memorial service, and we never hear the end of it.
Can PB's brains trust tell us the countenance someone should have on these occasions? A stiff British upper lip, gaze straight forward and perhaps - just perhaps - the merest trace of moisture in the corner of one eye?
The memorial service was boring, silly, chaotic, undignified, cringeworthy and embarrassing. Our prime minister should be congratulated for capturing that complex mood with a single photo.
+1
This attack line (if it is an attack at all) is even more silly given the smiles, laughing and dancing displayed by many of the people present. It was a memorial service, not a funeral.
Posing for a selfie at a memorial service is tacky and graceless. No matter how tacky and graceless the memorial service already is. We deserve better from our leaders.
Posing for a selfie at a memorial service is tacky and graceless. No matter how tacky and graceless the memorial service already is. We deserve better from our leaders.
Alan Clark reportedly had sex at a funeral (with the widow), it was his way of cheering her up.
Posing for a selfie at a memorial service is tacky and graceless. No matter how tacky and graceless the memorial service already is. We deserve better from our leaders.
Though to be fair to Obama he did rather make up for it by shaking hands with Raul Castro.
Castro may not be one of the nicest people on earth but it is high time the US started to engage in Cuba rather than simply hoping that one day they will all just go away. Hopefully Obama is getting some sensible advice on this and won't miss the opportunity to help Cuba make some real changes.
Posing for a selfie at a memorial service is tacky and graceless. No matter how tacky and graceless the memorial service already is. We deserve better from our leaders.
But holding a memorial service in a 95,000 capacity football stadium with large screens and half the world's leaders is *exceptionally* tacky and graceless. Cameron and Obama were just joining in.
There have been numerous riots inbetween, the Murdèr and cover up of the murder of Steven Lawrence... How bad does it have to get before people stop playing the man and realise he was right?
A British soldier hacked to death in broad daylight on a London street, with the perpetrator confessing only today that he is at war.
Agreed it's not the stuff of Robert E Lee but he confessed to being at war with us only today, so what would you call it?
A pair of nutters.
Murder rates have halved in ten years. That does not happen in civil wars.
What about 52 killed and 770 injured in 7/7? Just a few nutters?
These people are at war with us.
You give them more credit and respectability than they deserve by referring to murder as war. All it does is reinforce their message and give them some warped form of justification. Better to just deal with them as common - or uncommon - criminals and deny them the ability to claim that justification. .
Are we actually sure Obama, Cameron and Ms Kinnock were taking a 'selfie'? Perhaps they were taking a snap for posterity of the rapturous and adoring multitudes before them.
It must be painful for you to see Cameron and Obama on such friendly terms. The joyous "selfie" was quite appropriate at the celebration of a long and good life.
There have been numerous riots inbetween, the Murdèr and cover up of the murder of Steven Lawrence... How bad does it have to get before people stop playing the man and realise he was right?
If you think that a city of nearly 10 million and a murder toll this year so far of 82 is civil war, there's no reasoning with you. The murder rate this year and last is at a two generational low.
A British soldier hacked to death in broad daylight on a London street, with the perpetrator confessing only today that he is at war.
Agreed it's not the stuff of Robert E Lee but he confessed to being at war with us only today, so what would you call it?
A pair of nutters.
Murder rates have halved in ten years. That does not happen in civil wars.
What about 52 killed and 770 injured in 7/7? Just a few nutters?
These people are at war with us.
You give them more credit and respectability than they deserve by referring to murder as war. All it does is reinforce their message and give them some warped form of justification. Better to just deal with them as common - or uncommon - criminals and deny them the ability to claim that justification. .
Agreed, doesn't mean that Powell was wrong though.
Terrible howler in Margaret MacMillan's excellent new book "The War That Ended The Peace".
Erskine Childers was of course shot by the Irish, not the British.
It just so happens that I started this book a couple of days ago and there are a number of obvious mistakes and howlers which I put down to poor editing. So far in the opening chapter MacMillan is inclined to repeat herself after a few pages which I find disconcerting.
Tim We could do a state funeral 'package tour' for presidents and pms kings/emirs/emperors/princesses and princes and despots who pop their clogs available at a moment's notice to travel to your country. We could do a 'buy one get one free' if two die close together
Terrible howler in Margaret MacMillan's excellent new book "The War That Ended The Peace".
Erskine Childers was of course shot by the Irish, not the British.
Let it never be forgotten that the Free Staters executed 81 men in a little over six months during the Civil War, nearly three times the number the British executed between the Easter Rising and the end of the Anglo-Irish War.
Posing for a selfie at a memorial service is tacky and graceless. No matter how tacky and graceless the memorial service already is. We deserve better from our leaders.
It was indeed a memorial service but to many it was also a celebration of his life - something to be happy about. No need for po faces all the time.
A British soldier hacked to death in broad daylight on a London street, with the perpetrator confessing only today that he is at war.
Agreed it's not the stuff of Robert E Lee but he confessed to being at war with us only today, so what would you call it?
A pair of nutters.
Murder rates have halved in ten years. That does not happen in civil wars.
What about 52 killed and 770 injured in 7/7? Just a few nutters?
These people are at war with us.
You give them more credit and respectability than they deserve by referring to murder as war. All it does is reinforce their message and give them some warped form of justification. Better to just deal with them as common - or uncommon - criminals and deny them the ability to claim that justification. .
Agreed, doesn't mean that Powell was wrong though.
Since the government immediately introduced the 1968 immigration act I don't think there is any way of claiming whether his predictions were accurate or not.since the picture had changed. But the idea that we today are facing a civil war or anything approaching it is simply not realistic.
A British soldier hacked to death in broad daylight on a London street, with the perpetrator confessing only today that he is at war.
Agreed it's not the stuff of Robert E Lee but he confessed to being at war with us only today, so what would you call it?
A pair of nutters.
Murder rates have halved in ten years. That does not happen in civil wars.
What about 52 killed and 770 injured in 7/7? Just a few nutters?
These people are at war with us.
You give them more credit and respectability than they deserve by referring to murder as war. All it does is reinforce their message and give them some warped form of justification. Better to just deal with them as common - or uncommon - criminals and deny them the ability to claim that justification. .
Agreed, doesn't mean that Powell was wrong though.
Since the government immediately introduced the 1968 immigration act I don't think there is any way of claiming whether his predictions were accurate or not.since the picture had changed. But the idea that we today are facing a civil war or anything approaching it is simply not realistic.
There have been numerous riots inbetween, the Murdèr and cover up of the murder of Steven Lawrence... How bad does it have to get before people stop playing the man and realise he was right?
If you think that a city of nearly 10 million and a murder toll this year so far of 82 is civil war, there's no reasoning with you. The murder rate this year and last is at a two generational low.
"violence on a scale which can only adequately be described as civil war"
I think that organised groups, suicide bombers, carrying out attacks on innocent people & cutting soldiers heads off in broad daylight in the name of a religion that barely existed in the uk 45 years ago is roughly speaking where Enoch Powell thought we were heading when he made the above quote warning of the dangers of mass immigration and lack of integration
You must know that I don't think 82 murders is civil war, im not stupid. But the refusal to accept that what he predicted would happen, has happened just leaves me flabbergasted.
I only became a fan of Powell when I read his speeches in 2010 as a suspicious labour supporter doing a degree as a mature student, and couldn't help but be amazed how accurate he had been.
A British soldier hacked to death in broad daylight on a London street, with the perpetrator confessing only today that he is at war.
Agreed it's not the stuff of Robert E Lee but he confessed to being at war with us only today, so what would you call it?
A pair of nutters.
Murder rates have halved in ten years. That does not happen in civil wars.
What about 52 killed and 770 injured in 7/7? Just a few nutters?
These people are at war with us.
You give them more credit and respectability than they deserve by referring to murder as war. All it does is reinforce their message and give them some warped form of justification. Better to just deal with them as common - or uncommon - criminals and deny them the ability to claim that justification. .
Agreed, doesn't mean that Powell was wrong though.
Since the government immediately introduced the 1968 immigration act I don't think there is any way of claiming whether his predictions were accurate or not.since the picture had changed. But the idea that we today are facing a civil war or anything approaching it is simply not realistic.
Tell that to the victims.
That's a pretty daft comment. Should we consider that there is a civil war going on between men and women simply because occasionally a deranged misogynist decides to cut up some women?
People kill each other for all sorts of reasons. Most of them utterly illogical and unjustifiable. They then make all sorts of outlandish claims for their behaviour - the classic one being that God or 'the voices' made them do it. By giving any credence to their claims you are simply allowing them to perpetuate their self justification.
Kinnock's daughter in law, Barry and Dave in selfie shocker at Nellie's send off.
Difficult to see how the left can gain any traction from this.
The contrast throws Ed's glowering isolation from the party into even greater relief.
It`s not just the left who are bothered by this.It`s on the front page of 4 of the nation`s big selling papers.The two leaders are shown up to be shorts-wearing schoolboys than world statesmen.
And there would have been some fire-crackers between Obama and Michelle tonight.Atleast Dave was smart enough to leave Samantha at home
You give them more credit and respectability than they deserve by referring to murder as war. All it does is reinforce their message and give them some warped form of justification. Better to just deal with them as common - or uncommon - criminals and deny them the ability to claim that justification. .
That's exactly right. Your level-headed posts are always a pleasure (whether I agree with them or not).
Never mind the left, have you read that pompous article from Iain Martin in the Telegraph blogs yet? Twitter Iain Martin @iainmartin1 5h Selfie-gate: Why do Cameron and Obama feel the need to behave like idiots? (Me for @Telegraph ) http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk
Terrible howler in Margaret MacMillan's excellent new book "The War That Ended The Peace".
Erskine Childers was of course shot by the Irish, not the British.
It just so happens that I started this book a couple of days ago and there are a number of obvious mistakes and howlers which I put down to poor editing. So far in the opening chapter MacMillan is inclined to repeat herself after a few pages which I find disconcerting.
Without wishing to sound boastful, I think I should have become a freelance proofreader because every time I pick up a book I notice a multitude of both grammatical and factual errors within a short space of time.
Proofreaders today really are rubbish at their job, if they still exist, that is.
I must've missed Powells prediction that after forty years of high immigration to London the murder rate would be at exactly the same level as it was in 1969
He didn't make any prediction about murder rates, but he did say the white British would be in the minority, and was pilloried for it.
He also said there would be strife and violence between the immigrants and the people that were already here, and Brixton, Toxteth, Bradford, Lawrence, the institutional racism in the police force, 7/7, & Lee Rigbys murder are among many examples of this.
The most annoying part is he was a good man, only trying to do what he thought was in the best interests of a harmonious society, yet people then, and still now refuse to see what is staring them in the face
'Above all, people are disposed to mistake predicting troubles for causing troubles and even for desiring troubles: "If only," they love to think, "if only people wouldn't talk about it, it probably wouldn't happen." '
lol. But that's why I AM BETTER THAN THEM. I am a belligerent, drunken, hedonistic, greedy, whoremongering, Thatcherite capitalist patriot. That's what I am. Everything I do or say or write (ESPECIALLY on the Telegraph) reflects this.
Necessarily, my posts can be a bit punchy, but What You See Is What You Get.
With these shifty, warty, pungent, smelly old lefties, like tim or Jonathan, they pretend to be all nicey-nicey, then they consistently come out with the most odious, canting junk, some of it quite seriously pernicious (like their failure to condemn Islamism).
String them up!!
I've always considered you a bit of a one man focus group.
Personally I think you should do another piece about trolling Comment is Free.
See that the IDS wants to the end welfare state one is ripe for picking.
Kinnock's daughter in law, Barry and Dave in selfie shocker at Nellie's send off.
Difficult to see how the left can gain any traction from this.
The contrast throws Ed's glowering isolation from the party into even greater relief.
It`s not just the left who are bothered by this.It`s on the front page of 4 of the nation`s big selling papers.The two leaders are shown up to be shorts-wearing schoolboys than world statesmen.
And there would have been some fire-crackers between Obama and Michelle tonight.Atleast Dave was smart enough to leave Samantha at home
Don't worry SMukesh, it could have been worse.
Imagine what might have happened if Ms Thorning-Schmidt had been seated between Nicolas Sarkozy and Silvio Berlusconi.
Kinnock's daughter in law, Barry and Dave in selfie shocker at Nellie's send off.
Difficult to see how the left can gain any traction from this.
The contrast throws Ed's glowering isolation from the party into even greater relief.
It`s not just the left who are bothered by this.It`s on the front page of 4 of the nation`s big selling papers.The two leaders are shown up to be shorts-wearing schoolboys than world statesmen.
And there would have been some fire-crackers between Obama and Michelle tonight.Atleast Dave was smart enough to leave Samantha at home
Don't worry SMukesh, it could have been worse.
Imagine what might have happened if Ms Thorning-Schmidt had been seated between Nicolas Sarkozy and Silvio Berlusconi.
Comments
LMAO
YouGov/Sun poll tonight: Labour lead still at 5:
CON 34%, LAB 39%, LD 9%, UKIP 12%
CON 34%, LAB 39%, LD 9%, UKIP 12%
That's 3 YouGovs in a row with Lab lead at 5%.
CON 34%, LAB 39%, LD 9%, UKIP 12%
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/8524
This is a really interesting article, not only for the way that UKIP are coming on in Wales, which of course I approve of.
Hmmm. So you would not have wanted my wife, a highly-paid, highly-skilled atheist engineer who speaks excellent English, to come in? After all, she comes from a majority Muslim country.
Just checking.
Progressives 48%
Tory/UKIP 46%
Hmmm...
There are ex-presidents and a current president. Dignitaries from all over the world.
And he is of less interest than Nick Clegg.
Be nice to Ed.
Or the morning thread's going to be about electoral reform.
The problem is that much as I hate to agree with Tim, and in spite of the fact I signed the petition when it first started circulating a week or more ago, he is actually right that we practice segregation based on gender as part of our education system - though not just in religious schools as he seems to be implying.
Now I know that in my mind there is a difference and also that there is apparently plenty of evidence that girls do better in single sex education. But I also know I would really struggle to articulate why there is a difference between one type of segregation being bad and another good (or at least not bad) and I also suspect it would be damn near impossible to create a law which specifically banned segregation for religious reasons but allowed it for secular reasons.
The area of London which would have flooded last week if not for the Thames movable flood barrier
Via: @EnvAgency pic.twitter.com/3Plkffwhf6
twitter.com/Amazing_Maps/status/410508606124331008
There are, as far as I'm aware , no Jewish or Irish Catholic groups at university demanding that women must be segregated from men merely because the speaker is Jewish or Catholic or believes the moon is made of green cheese.
And I would feel react in exactly the same way if there were such groups. But the fact is that now we face a serious threat to our liberal views from Islamists and. If we really believe in our liberal values, we need to confront such people not indulge in pathetic whataboutery and self-congratulations over past victories.
The last Government were not exactly big on forward thinking were they?
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/252461-stv-poll-labour-closes-in-on-snp-in-holyrood-voting-intentions/
Personally I would prefer to live in a country where the law of the land applies to everyone equally rather than making exceptions for particular groups we fancy persecuting this week.
Now I know that as an ex drug addict who has disdain for most social norms and who uses his minor celebrity status as an excuse for twattish behaviour this is a concept that you might find difficult to grasp but take it from me that most people when they actually think about it want to live in that sort of country rather than one where the government can arbitrarily ban certain groups from normal life simply because of their religion. That has been tried before in a couple of countries and didn't end well. Funny actually that you should mention the Nazis in your reply.
The obvious answer would probably be to be consistent and ban all forms of gender segregation - which was the point I was making in my last post - but since you are less concerned about the actual issues and more concerned about a bit of gratuitous muslim bashing I am sure that never actually occurred to you
Also note that the hideous practice of FGM is practised by some Christian and Jewish sects, and is banned in many Muslim countries. So if we stop immigration from those countries, along with any other practices we do not like (France, eating snails), then we'll have a de facto worldwide immigration ban.
Result!!!!
And for the record, I didn't bring her over. Our eyes first met over a warm signal generator in an office near Cambridge. Not many people can say they met their beloved like that. Or perhaps would want to. ;-)
If you want to see one of these sexy pieces of kit (the signal generator, not my wife), then follow the link below:
http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pc-1000002572:epsg:pgr/esg-signal-generators
If you're sad enough.
Tim always said murder rates went down as mass immigration goes up... Maybe this is why....
A man has admitted killing soldier Lee Rigby but said it was not murder because "I am a soldier of Allah" and "this is a war".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25301907
Powell predicted "inner London becoming ungovernable or violence which could only effectively be described as civil war"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Powell
A few of them, quite unprompted shared two of Sean's telegraph pieces.
His popularity would have soared even more, if I had told them Sean has insulted me on a few occasions.
I simply don't understand how the Left manage to square their love of all things Islam with that religions views on homosexuality, gay rights, women's rights to say nothing about disgusting practices such as FGM.
At least Toynbee seems to have woken up, can one of the Lefties please explain it to a simple soul like me please.
Can PB's brains trust tell us the countenance someone should have on these occasions? A stiff British upper lip, gaze straight forward and perhaps - just perhaps - the merest trace of moisture in the corner of one eye?
Don't ever presume to know what I think on a subject. I can and will speak for myself.
It is depressing that you are - apparently - unable to condemn unreservedly gender segregation imposed at a seat of learning by Islamist speakers but seek to make spurious comparisons with teaching about contraception. If you cannot see the difference between a university which has a code saying that students will be treated equally, no matter what their gender, race, sexuality etc kowtowing to an Islamist speaker insisting that women must sit separately from men then there is little point debating with you.
And, pace, Richard Tyndall: we don't need more laws to stop this. We simply need the universities to say that while speakers are welcome to give talks and speak freely - provided they don't break the laws on inciting violence etc - they cannot insist on who can attend, where they sit or impose any other conditions.
What's needed is intellectual courage. A shame we can't expect this as a matter of course from one of our top universities.
I would say 7/7, Lee Rigby, and the demographics of London boroughs prove him to be more accurate than even he feared.
If he had somehow been able to show footage of those events, and the make up of a typical East London street in 2013 to people back in 1968, no one would have been able to believe it could possibly happen. He was guilty of underestimation
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/10/labor-leads-coalition-in-latest-newspoll-for-first-time-since-gillard-elected?commentpage=2
Ed needs a cost of latte freeze.
Good to see they take the Telegraph on Blossom ward.
This attack line (if it is an attack at all) is even more silly given the smiles, laughing and dancing displayed by many of the people present. It was a memorial service, not a funeral.
2015
Agreed it's not the stuff of Robert E Lee but he confessed to being at war with us only today, so what would you call it?
Murder rates have halved in ten years. That does not happen in civil wars.
Erskine Childers was of course shot by the Irish, not the British.
Castro may not be one of the nicest people on earth but it is high time the US started to engage in Cuba rather than simply hoping that one day they will all just go away. Hopefully Obama is getting some sensible advice on this and won't miss the opportunity to help Cuba make some real changes.
These people are at war with us.
The piece they most shared with me was this one
Are atheists mentally ill?
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100231060/are-atheists-mentally-ill/
Edit and the second one they shared with me, was your impartial and honest appraisal of the Labour government of 1997 to 2010
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100240679/exclusive-labour-1997-2010-was-the-worst-government-ever-and-this-is-why/
;-)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/lee-rigby-murder-trial-michael-adebolajo-declares-himself-a-soldier-of-allah-as-he-insists-he-has-no-regrets-8993196.html
"We are at war and I am a soldier. Now you too will taste the reality of this situation." Mohammad Sidique Khan 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4206708.stm
"there lies the certainty of violence on a scale which can only adequately be described as civil war". Enoch Powell 1981
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Powell
There have been numerous riots inbetween, the Murdèr and cover up of the murder of Steven Lawrence... How bad does it have to get before people stop playing the man and realise he was right?
Just checkin' so I don't break the rule.
If anyone wants to know what a civil war really looks like, they should read up about it.
Make no mistake: Iain Duncan Smith wants the end of social security
Don't let the bluster, incompetence and misinformation obscure the Quiet Man's true, Tory purpose: destroying the welfare safety net
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/10/make-no-mistake-iain-duncan-smith-end-social-security
The joyous "selfie" was quite appropriate at the celebration of a long and good life.
We could do a state funeral 'package tour' for presidents and pms
kings/emirs/emperors/princesses and princes and despots who pop their clogs available at a moment's notice to travel to your country. We could do a 'buy one get one free' if two die close together
Difficult to see how the left can gain any traction from this.
The contrast throws Ed's glowering isolation from the party into even greater relief.
I think that organised groups, suicide bombers, carrying out attacks on innocent people & cutting soldiers heads off in broad daylight in the name of a religion that barely existed in the uk 45 years ago is roughly speaking where Enoch Powell thought we were heading when he made the above quote warning of the dangers of mass immigration and lack of integration
You must know that I don't think 82 murders is civil war, im not stupid. But the refusal to accept that what he predicted would happen, has happened just leaves me flabbergasted.
I only became a fan of Powell when I read his speeches in 2010 as a suspicious labour supporter doing a degree as a mature student, and couldn't help but be amazed how accurate he had been.
People kill each other for all sorts of reasons. Most of them utterly illogical and unjustifiable. They then make all sorts of outlandish claims for their behaviour - the classic one being that God or 'the voices' made them do it. By giving any credence to their claims you are simply allowing them to perpetuate their self justification.
I have no idea what it looked like but I loved reading their comments.
Who was the PB leftie sage who predicted that the world would be interested in nothing but Mandela until into the New Year ?
And wasn't Mandela always very respectful of his dignity and that of others ? I dare say he would have been contemptuous of today's display.
And there would have been some fire-crackers between Obama and Michelle tonight.Atleast Dave was smart enough to leave Samantha at home
Is it acceptable on PB to call Enoch Powell a racist?
Twitter
Iain Martin @iainmartin1 5h
Selfie-gate: Why do Cameron and Obama feel the need to behave like idiots? (Me for @Telegraph ) http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk
Proofreaders today really are rubbish at their job, if they still exist, that is.
One of the best books I've read recently was The Grass Is Singing. Wish I'd come across it a lot earlier.
He also said there would be strife and violence between the immigrants and the people that were already here, and Brixton, Toxteth, Bradford, Lawrence, the institutional racism in the police force, 7/7, & Lee Rigbys murder are among many examples of this.
The most annoying part is he was a good man, only trying to do what he thought was in the best interests of a harmonious society, yet people then, and still now refuse to see what is staring them in the face
'Above all, people are disposed to mistake predicting troubles for causing troubles and even for desiring troubles: "If only," they love to think, "if only people wouldn't talk about it, it probably wouldn't happen." '
Personally I think you should do another piece about trolling Comment is Free.
See that the IDS wants to the end welfare state one is ripe for picking.
Imagine what might have happened if Ms Thorning-Schmidt had been seated between Nicolas Sarkozy and Silvio Berlusconi.
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/