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  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Pioneers, on the ventilators note:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1249980622627536897

    Seems rather shoddy.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.



    And not or.

    This was always going to be an almighty struggle. The government chose to make it worse on ideological grounds. As a result of that choice, people will almost certainly die.
    How many have died as a result of the virus... that started in :,China...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    I'm showing a damn sight more measured argument than you today Mr. Meeks. Retirement not suiting you, it seems....
    Your argument consists of: “those foreigners are filthy hounds”.

    Mine points out that the government has, as a matter of dogma, chosen to turn down access to life-saving equipment that it does not have enough of.

    The self-radicalisation of Leavers has ratcheted up today. I hadn’t expected the pandemic to be a cue for the death cult to sacrifice victims on the altar of their Europhobia, but here we are.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.

    Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.

    Margaret Thatcher said we get the community we deserve.

    I’d say requiring compulsion via the State rather than voluntarily assisting your fellow citizens is much more indicative of a selfish society
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    edited April 2020

    Mr. Pioneers, on the ventilators note:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1249980622627536897

    Seems rather shoddy.

    "has yet "

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    edited April 2020
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:
    If I understand correctly around 0.1% of the population of New York City have already died. Given that figure, it seems surprising the infection rate in that sample is so low.
    Pregnancy does some very interesting things to the immune system.

    Did you know that women who suffer from rheumatoid arthritis - where the immune system attacks your own body - almost always go into remission, while pregnant?

    In the context that COVID19 causes - as one effect, in some patients - a massive immune system disfunction....
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:
    If I understand correctly around 0.1% of the population of New York City have already died. Given that figure, it seems surprising the infection rate in that sample is so low.
    I suppose it's to be explained by these being predominantly younger women, who are less likely to be infected and more likely to be asymptomatic than the population in general.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    I'm showing a damn sight more measured argument than you today Mr. Meeks. Retirement not suiting you, it seems....
    Your argument consists of: “those foreigners are filthy hounds”.

    Mine points out that the government has, as a matter of dogma, chosen to turn down access to life-saving equipment that it does not have enough of.

    The self-radicalisation of Leavers has ratcheted up today. I hadn’t expected the pandemic to be a cue for the death cult to sacrifice victims on the altar of their Europhobia, but here we are.
    "The padded cell awaits you"? Ah yes, the imputing of mental illness to people you have lost an argument to. How very Soviet of you.

    Stay Get classy, Mr Meeks.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    felix said:

    felix said:


    Edmund is only interested in extolling the virtues of a Labour government - everything else is collatoral damage.

    I think you may be mixing me up with somebody else???
    No.
    You do know Labour are pro-NHS, right?
    Boris has parked his tanks to defend the NHS
    .
    Let’s wait and see what happens when this is all over in regards to NHS funding, strategy and pay awards.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620
    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.



    It seems AM would prefer to hand over all control of PPE to the EU.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited April 2020

    This. 1000x this.

    "Not everyone who instinctively wants the lockdown to be eased as soon as possible is guilty of putting profit before life. It is surely not irresponsible to wonder whether the suspension of everyday existence is not already proving unsustainable, and whether there might come a point when the risks of the virus are outweighed by damage to people’s lives that may prove irreparable."

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/13/millions-lockdown-food-parcels-coronavirus-crisis

    It's in the guardian so it's ok..now if Toby Young made the same argument...
    If Tobes had built a journalistic career on talking and listening to the impoverished and voiceless, he might get a hearing I guess. His SOP of attention-seeking over an issue on which he has an opinion but not much knowledge while boiling with angst over his own mediocrity and unlikeableness wouldn't really crack it though.
  • Mr. Pioneers, on the ventilators note:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1249980622627536897

    Seems rather shoddy.

    I read a report that said that the doctors on the frontline are adjusting and adapting the ventilators as they learn by experience hence why the ventillators may not now meet their specifications

    If this is true, are any ventillators being supplied fit for purpose and if not what on earth happens ?

    This virus just gets more and more complex to deal with
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,833
    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:
    If I understand correctly around 0.1% of the population of New York City have already died. Given that figure, it seems surprising the infection rate in that sample is so low.
    Basic question: does SARS-Cov-2 above mean COVID-19? I assume so from the context but I'm slightly confused by the terminology.

    If so, I think this figure is remarkable and surprising. The blue segment I think we can put to one side: these are simply those who have managed not to catch the virus yet, which should not be too unsurprising given that it is still relatively new to New York. The exciting thing is the comparison of orange to grey; of those who tested positive for the sample, 90% are asymptomatic. Which perhaps gives some encouragement to those backing Oxford over Imperial.

    Happy for anyone thinking more deeply to correct me!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.



    It seems AM would prefer to hand over all control of PPE to the EU.
    No. And not or.

    This is not complicated stuff for anyone not completely blinded by dogma.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    edited April 2020
    TGOHF666 said:

    Mr. Pioneers, on the ventilators note:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1249980622627536897

    Seems rather shoddy.

    "has yet "

    If you read the detailed story - this is because the specifications were changed by the government/NHS, following further information on COVID19 and its treatment.

    So the ventilators may or may not have met the original specification - but they won't meet the new specification unless changed.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.



    It seems AM would prefer to hand over all control of PPE to the EU.
    No. And not or.

    This is not complicated stuff for anyone not completely blinded by dogma.
    Which you are.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    The media has hollowed itself out - the internet has allowed loons to pontificate, but it has also revealed the basic lack of knowledge of the world in much of the media.

    We live in a highly technical world. Lots of detail and facts out there. ArsTechnica carry far better reports on such matters than grace the New York Times, or the London Times.

    There are jokes for every technical field such as - https://aviationhumor.net/journalists-guide-to-aircraft-identification/

    Journalists have tried to laugh such things off, or pretend that they are not interesting to the general public.
    Mainstream reporting on aviation is hilarious, there’s usually way more incorrect ‘facts’ than correct ones in reports. Watching them try and understand MCAS was rather amusing, as was them insisting that all the 737NG planes had the same system.

    Makes one think about all the other subjects on which I am not as knowledgable, and am supposed to rely on them to inform me!
    Here's one for you...

    Man accidentally ejects himself from fighter jet during surprise flight
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/man-accidentally-ejects-himself-from-fighter-jet-during-surprise-flight

    ... made me laugh, too.
    This happened on my F-14 squadron during my last days. They had some black shoe (non-aviator) in the RIO seat who used the ejection handles to steady himself while the pilot did an inverted check which was the normal procedure to check for loose items in the cockpit. BANG! See ya later...

    It could have been worse as we normally flew the F-14 in command mode so the RIO could eject both crew due to the tendency of the pilot to try to save the jet until it was too late...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    I'm showing a damn sight more measured argument than you today Mr. Meeks. Retirement not suiting you, it seems....
    Your argument consists of: “those foreigners are filthy hounds”.

    Mine points out that the government has, as a matter of dogma, chosen to turn down access to life-saving equipment that it does not have enough of.

    The self-radicalisation of Leavers has ratcheted up today. I hadn’t expected the pandemic to be a cue for the death cult to sacrifice victims on the altar of their Europhobia, but here we are.
    "The padded cell awaits you"? Ah yes, the imputing of mental illness to people you have lost an argument to. How very Soviet of you.

    Stay Get classy, Mr Meeks.
    Your comment was in the strict sense of the word paranoid, imputing without reason hostile intentions to a third party. That paranoia came from your unreasoning hatred of the EU.

    To lose an argument to you, you would first need to make one. The wild ravings of a man who regards the EU as the Antichrist don’t count.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.

    Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.

    No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.
    "a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement"

    How has that shown itself since he has been elected PM with a majority of 80?
    Dying in a ditch (or not) over the extension.

    Freeloading Christmas holiday in Mustique

    Not obeying his own social distancing rules.

    Moving his pregnant mistress into Downing St.


    The Leopard hasn't changed his spots.

    Your last one is an odd inclusion with the others. Why care about his personal life? No one can be under the illusion some great politicians and people were not the best behaved personally and some horrible people have been.

    Boris provides ammunition enough through his politics.
    If you wanted to mention Carrie, a better question might be how she has suddenly materialised at Chequers.

    Still, Robert Jenrick must be more relaxed now -- he faced calls to resign over apparently breaking the rules against moving to second (or third, in his case) homes. Every cloud...
    It may be that Downing Street has not yet been fully "deep cleaned". Chequers makes sense. Boris has been declared free of Covid-19. After displaying some symptoms, I presume Carrie has been declared free of it too.

    You REALLY think there's a story here beyond low-grade Boris bashing for Boris bashing's sake?
    Who is bashing Boris? Boris being at Chequers is one thing since he is straight out of hospital, though Carrie is another. However, the political significance of this is, as stated, that it makes Jenrick look a lot safer just as his story was unravelling.
  • Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    I'm showing a damn sight more measured argument than you today Mr. Meeks. Retirement not suiting you, it seems....
    Your argument consists of: “those foreigners are filthy hounds”.

    Mine points out that the government has, as a matter of dogma, chosen to turn down access to life-saving equipment that it does not have enough of.

    The self-radicalisation of Leavers has ratcheted up today. I hadn’t expected the pandemic to be a cue for the death cult to sacrifice victims on the altar of their Europhobia, but here we are.
    "The padded cell awaits you"? Ah yes, the imputing of mental illness to people you have lost an argument to. How very Soviet of you.

    Stay Get classy, Mr Meeks.
    I am so repulsed by his posts today I have decided to step back and go in the garden

    His prejeudice and hate has spiralled out of control and frankly it sickens me at a time when we all need to be kinder

    I simply do not need to read his bile
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    He's baaaaaaaack.......

    Cummings returns to work today in Downing Street.

    Oh dear.
    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/herd-immunity-uk-coronavirus-robert-peston
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,603


    Thank goodness we have left the EU and the economic armageddon coming the way of the eurozone countries

    Italian PM rejects Eurozone bailout as "a trap".
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/04/14/rift-fears-eurozone-bailout-fund-sunk2/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,932

    This. 1000x this.

    "Not everyone who instinctively wants the lockdown to be eased as soon as possible is guilty of putting profit before life. It is surely not irresponsible to wonder whether the suspension of everyday existence is not already proving unsustainable, and whether there might come a point when the risks of the virus are outweighed by damage to people’s lives that may prove irreparable."

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/13/millions-lockdown-food-parcels-coronavirus-crisis

    It's in the guardian so it's ok..now if Toby Young made the same argument...
    The Telegraph has advisers to SAGE urging that police are reined in from hassling sunbathers and children playing in front gardens.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/04/13/government-should-calling-dogs-relaxing-lockdown-rules-scientific/
  • ChelyabinskChelyabinsk Posts: 500
    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.
    An alternative explanation is that Britain actually has a comparatively strong capacity to manufacture PPE and ventilators, and the 'EU procurement scheme' was a means of allowing smaller countries who lacked this capacity to share in its fruits. It would explain why the EU was so keen to allow Britain to join the scheme, despite their previous inflexible stances on cherry-picking aspects of EU membership, and why the government has provided so many contradictory reasons as to why it chose not to. If this proves to be true, no doubt Alistair will switch from blaming the government for letting British subjects die due to Europhobic dogma to blaming the government for letting EU subjects die due to Europhobic dogma.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:
    If I understand correctly around 0.1% of the population of New York City have already died. Given that figure, it seems surprising the infection rate in that sample is so low.
    Pregnancy does some very interesting things to the immune system.

    Did you know that women who suffer from rheumatoid arthritis - where the immune system attacks your own body - almost always go into remission, while pregnant?

    In the context that COVID19 causes - as one effect, in some patients - a massive immune system disfunction....
    That is also interesting given what was posted here last night about interleukin-6 being an indicator of risk for mechanical ventilation.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Oh my, the GOP wisconsin judge didn't loose by 6 points, he's lost by 10+ points. That's an ass whoopin'
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    felix said:

    felix said:


    Edmund is only interested in extolling the virtues of a Labour government - everything else is collatoral damage.

    I think you may be mixing me up with somebody else???
    No.
    You do know Labour are pro-NHS, right?
    Boris has parked his tanks to defend the NHS
    .
    For now. What's that French phrase about other times.......
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464

    He's baaaaaaaack.......

    Cummings returns to work today in Downing Street.

    Is that good news?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Sandpit said:


    Thank goodness we have left the EU and the economic armageddon coming the way of the eurozone countries

    Italian PM rejects Eurozone bailout as "a trap".
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/04/14/rift-fears-eurozone-bailout-fund-sunk2/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F4qzPbcFiA
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    I'm showing a damn sight more measured argument than you today Mr. Meeks. Retirement not suiting you, it seems....
    Your argument consists of: “those foreigners are filthy hounds”.

    Mine points out that the government has, as a matter of dogma, chosen to turn down access to life-saving equipment that it does not have enough of.

    The self-radicalisation of Leavers has ratcheted up today. I hadn’t expected the pandemic to be a cue for the death cult to sacrifice victims on the altar of their Europhobia, but here we are.
    "The padded cell awaits you"? Ah yes, the imputing of mental illness to people you have lost an argument to. How very Soviet of you.

    Stay Get classy, Mr Meeks.
    I am so repulsed by his posts today I have decided to step back and go in the garden

    His prejeudice and hate has spiralled out of control and frankly it sickens me at a time when we all need to be kinder

    I simply do not need to read his bile
    It's OK Big_G, maybe when this is all over, you can extend your legendary milk of human kindness to giving him some advice on how to lead a happy and fulfilled life in retirement.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    If this proves to be true

    A mere detail surely before rushing to judgment?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.
    An alternative explanation is that Britain actually has a comparatively strong capacity to manufacture PPE and ventilators, and the 'EU procurement scheme' was a means of allowing smaller countries who lacked this capacity to share in its fruits. It would explain why the EU was so keen to allow Britain to join the scheme, despite their previous inflexible stances on cherry-picking aspects of EU membership, and why the government has provided so many contradictory reasons as to why it chose not to. If this proves to be true, no doubt Alistair will switch from blaming the government for letting British subjects die due to Europhobic dogma to blaming the government for letting EU subjects die due to Europhobic dogma.
    AM believed that there were no strawberries in the supermarkets in the summer of 2018.

    He has a long standing derangement on this subject.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.

    Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.

    No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.
    "a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement"

    How has that shown itself since he has been elected PM with a majority of 80?
    Dying in a ditch (or not) over the extension.

    Freeloading Christmas holiday in Mustique

    Not obeying his own social distancing rules.

    Moving his pregnant mistress into Downing St.


    The Leopard hasn't changed his spots.

    Your last one is an odd inclusion with the others. Why care about his personal life? No one can be under the illusion some great politicians and people were not the best behaved personally and some horrible people have been.

    Boris provides ammunition enough through his politics.
    If you wanted to mention Carrie, a better question might be how she has suddenly materialised at Chequers.

    Still, Robert Jenrick must be more relaxed now -- he faced calls to resign over apparently breaking the rules against moving to second (or third, in his case) homes. Every cloud...
    It may be that Downing Street has not yet been fully "deep cleaned". Chequers makes sense. Boris has been declared free of Covid-19. After displaying some symptoms, I presume Carrie has been declared free of it too.

    You REALLY think there's a story here beyond low-grade Boris bashing for Boris bashing's sake?
    Who is bashing Boris? Boris being at Chequers is one thing since he is straight out of hospital, though Carrie is another. However, the political significance of this is, as stated, that it makes Jenrick look a lot safer just as his story was unravelling.
    Given that Boris is still recovering, I presume that he would be required to isolate for x more days?

    If nothing else - can you get into the No. 10 flat without passing through a chunk of the rest of the building?

    Perhaps Foxy could comment?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.
    An alternative explanation is that Britain actually has a comparatively strong capacity to manufacture PPE and ventilators, and the 'EU procurement scheme' was a means of allowing smaller countries who lacked this capacity to share in its fruits. It would explain why the EU was so keen to allow Britain to join the scheme, despite their previous inflexible stances on cherry-picking aspects of EU membership, and why the government has provided so many contradictory reasons as to why it chose not to. If this proves to be true, no doubt Alistair will switch from blaming the government for letting British subjects die due to Europhobic dogma to blaming the government for letting EU subjects die due to Europhobic dogma.
    AM believed that there were no strawberries in the supermarkets in the summer of 2018.

    He has a long standing derangement on this subject.
    I’m afraid a citation is needed for that claim.

    (Spoiler: you won’t find it.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    Foxy said:

    Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.

    Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.

    No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.
    Tough luck for all of you on the right.

    He has won me over. For now.

    As for morality - Blair was a mendacious shyster and a philanderer too with a giant sense of entitlement. And the most successful Labour leader ever.

    Boris will sweep this country before him doing what he did when he was Mayor of London: winning a Labour electorate.

    Boris is the new Blair. Politically and socially.
    Boris is the most electorally successful Tory leader since Thatcher, Blair was the most electorally successful Labour leader ever.

    Maybe the voters like shysters if they have some charisma and energy and get the job done
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    edited April 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I think Cyclefree has unfortunately rather missed the point on this one.

    The report certainly doesn't suggest that Starmer's apology was unnecessary - if anything it underlines the need for it, since it is claiming that Labour party officials did not investigate these claims (albeit in order to damage the leader).

    As to who benefits: the Tories, obviously, although they will perhaps not wish to focus on it too much at the present time.

    But I suspect one reason it was released is because Starmer is choosing his team. Possibly he was considering some of the individuals mentioned in the report.

    Trust in the Labour party is going to be in even shorter supply.

    The point I was trying to make was that it is possible that those who leaked the report did so in order to undermine the need for Starmer’s apology by showing that he was apologising to people who had deliberately undermined the previous leader and scuppered the chances of a GE victory.
    Starmer's apology was (rightly I think) to Jewish community leaders - not the people quoted in the report as having undermined the Labour party.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.
    An alternative explanation is that Britain actually has a comparatively strong capacity to manufacture PPE and ventilators, and the 'EU procurement scheme' was a means of allowing smaller countries who lacked this capacity to share in its fruits. It would explain why the EU was so keen to allow Britain to join the scheme, despite their previous inflexible stances on cherry-picking aspects of EU membership, and why the government has provided so many contradictory reasons as to why it chose not to. If this proves to be true, no doubt Alistair will switch from blaming the government for letting British subjects die due to Europhobic dogma to blaming the government for letting EU subjects die due to Europhobic dogma.
    AM believed that there were no strawberries in the supermarkets in the summer of 2018.

    He has a long standing derangement on this subject.
    I’m afraid a citation is needed for that claim.

    (Spoiler: you won’t find it.)
    Yet you know its true.

    There was a reason I gave a daily Tesco strawberry score in 2018.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    Cookie said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:
    If I understand correctly around 0.1% of the population of New York City have already died. Given that figure, it seems surprising the infection rate in that sample is so low.
    Basic question: does SARS-Cov-2 above mean COVID-19? I assume so from the context but I'm slightly confused by the terminology.

    If so, I think this figure is remarkable and surprising. The blue segment I think we can put to one side: these are simply those who have managed not to catch the virus yet, which should not be too unsurprising given that it is still relatively new to New York. The exciting thing is the comparison of orange to grey; of those who tested positive for the sample, 90% are asymptomatic. Which perhaps gives some encouragement to those backing Oxford over Imperial.

    Happy for anyone thinking more deeply to correct me!
    If I understand correctly, SARS-Cov-2 is the virus and COVID-19 is the disease.

    I see what you mean about the high percentage of asymptomatic cases. Based on what I've read, I have been guessing the figure is more like 75%.

    But given what we know about the disease generally being more severe in men than women, and in older rather than younger people, perhaps it's not too unexpected that the figure could be 88% in younger women - even without considering any special effects of pregnancy.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.
    An alternative explanation is that Britain actually has a comparatively strong capacity to manufacture PPE and ventilators, and the 'EU procurement scheme' was a means of allowing smaller countries who lacked this capacity to share in its fruits. It would explain why the EU was so keen to allow Britain to join the scheme, despite their previous inflexible stances on cherry-picking aspects of EU membership, and why the government has provided so many contradictory reasons as to why it chose not to. If this proves to be true, no doubt Alistair will switch from blaming the government for letting British subjects die due to Europhobic dogma to blaming the government for letting EU subjects die due to Europhobic dogma.
    AM believed that there were no strawberries in the supermarkets in the summer of 2018.

    He has a long standing derangement on this subject.
    I’m afraid a citation is needed for that claim.

    (Spoiler: you won’t find it.)
    Yet you know its true.

    There was a reason I gave a daily Tesco strawberry score in 2018.
    Go looking. You won’t find a citation for what you claimed.

    It’s not my fault if you misread what I actually wrote.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Boris is the new Blairite champion of the soft Left. He has turned from villain to hero. First he savages Margaret Thatcher's individualistic (aka totally selfish) view about society. Then he issues a heartfelt paean to the NHS, championing it as everything that is great about this country.

    Marvellous man. The new Tony Blair.

    No, he is still a mendacious shyster with no personal morality and giant sense of entitlement. His brush with death doesn't change that. The sycophancy is nauseating.
    Tough luck for all of you on the right.

    He has won me over. For now.

    As for morality - Blair was a mendacious shyster and a philanderer too with a giant sense of entitlement. And the most successful Labour leader ever.

    Boris will sweep this country before him doing what he did when he was Mayor of London: winning a Labour electorate.

    Boris is the new Blair. Politically and socially.
    Boris is the most electorally successful Tory leader since Thatcher, Blair was the most electorally successful Labour leader ever.

    Maybe the voters like shysters if they have some charisma and energy and get the job done
    You can fool some of the people......
  • johnoundlejohnoundle Posts: 120

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    Boris could have knocked up a couple of fully automated PPE factories in Slough instead of watching Withnail and I ?

    Sure..
    Britain has self-isolated itself from the supplies of PPE that the EU has secured. Still, a few dozen dead doctors, nurses and care home assistants are a small price to pay to allow the government to indulge its Europhobia, eh?


    My wife's niece working on the front line in Toulon would love to have some supplies of the PPE you refer to. We have been regularly receiving phone calls asking if we can send respirators & masks from the UK.

    Her hospital has been told to expect additional ventilators (which were part of this EU tender) in July. Ventilators are a major issue in France as they currently have 8,000, considerably less than the UK.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    Cookie said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:
    If I understand correctly around 0.1% of the population of New York City have already died. Given that figure, it seems surprising the infection rate in that sample is so low.
    Basic question: does SARS-Cov-2 above mean COVID-19? I assume so from the context but I'm slightly confused by the terminology.

    If so, I think this figure is remarkable and surprising. The blue segment I think we can put to one side: these are simply those who have managed not to catch the virus yet, which should not be too unsurprising given that it is still relatively new to New York. The exciting thing is the comparison of orange to grey; of those who tested positive for the sample, 90% are asymptomatic. Which perhaps gives some encouragement to those backing Oxford over Imperial.

    Happy for anyone thinking more deeply to correct me!
    Also, I'm afraid that if the death toll in New York City is 0.1% of the population, even at a relatively early stage, it really puts paid to the optimistic scenario in which this disease isn't much more dangerous than seasonal flu.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.
    An alternative explanation is that Britain actually has a comparatively strong capacity to manufacture PPE and ventilators, and the 'EU procurement scheme' was a means of allowing smaller countries who lacked this capacity to share in its fruits. It would explain why the EU was so keen to allow Britain to join the scheme, despite their previous inflexible stances on cherry-picking aspects of EU membership, and why the government has provided so many contradictory reasons as to why it chose not to. If this proves to be true, no doubt Alistair will switch from blaming the government for letting British subjects die due to Europhobic dogma to blaming the government for letting EU subjects die due to Europhobic dogma.
    AM believed that there were no strawberries in the supermarkets in the summer of 2018.

    He has a long standing derangement on this subject.
    I’m afraid a citation is needed for that claim.

    (Spoiler: you won’t find it.)
    Yet you know its true.

    There was a reason I gave a daily Tesco strawberry score in 2018.
    That you're a bit strange?
  • ChelyabinskChelyabinsk Posts: 500

    If this proves to be true

    A mere detail surely before rushing to judgment?
    Merely a scenario worth entertaining before calling for government officials to be prosecuted for manslaughter and fellow posters to be sectioned.

    Go looking. You won’t find a citation for what you claimed.

    Hardly surprising, with 29,000 posts and no search function.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,603

    TGOHF666 said:

    Mr. Pioneers, on the ventilators note:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1249980622627536897

    Seems rather shoddy.

    "has yet "

    If you read the detailed story - this is because the specifications were changed by the government/NHS, following further information on COVID19 and its treatment.

    So the ventilators may or may not have met the original specification - but they won't meet the new specification unless changed.
    It’s such a shame that the F1 teams are so set in their ways, and find it really difficult to rapidly design, prototype and manufacture major changes to complex machinery when up against a tight deadline.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.
    An alternative explanation is that Britain actually has a comparatively strong capacity to manufacture PPE and ventilators, and the 'EU procurement scheme' was a means of allowing smaller countries who lacked this capacity to share in its fruits. It would explain why the EU was so keen to allow Britain to join the scheme, despite their previous inflexible stances on cherry-picking aspects of EU membership, and why the government has provided so many contradictory reasons as to why it chose not to. If this proves to be true, no doubt Alistair will switch from blaming the government for letting British subjects die due to Europhobic dogma to blaming the government for letting EU subjects die due to Europhobic dogma.
    AM believed that there were no strawberries in the supermarkets in the summer of 2018.

    He has a long standing derangement on this subject.
    I’m afraid a citation is needed for that claim.

    (Spoiler: you won’t find it.)
    Yet you know its true.

    There was a reason I gave a daily Tesco strawberry score in 2018.
    Go looking. You won’t find a citation for what you claimed.

    It’s not my fault if you misread what I actually wrote.
    One of you is clearly clutching at strawberries.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Chris said:

    Cookie said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:
    If I understand correctly around 0.1% of the population of New York City have already died. Given that figure, it seems surprising the infection rate in that sample is so low.
    Basic question: does SARS-Cov-2 above mean COVID-19? I assume so from the context but I'm slightly confused by the terminology.

    If so, I think this figure is remarkable and surprising. The blue segment I think we can put to one side: these are simply those who have managed not to catch the virus yet, which should not be too unsurprising given that it is still relatively new to New York. The exciting thing is the comparison of orange to grey; of those who tested positive for the sample, 90% are asymptomatic. Which perhaps gives some encouragement to those backing Oxford over Imperial.

    Happy for anyone thinking more deeply to correct me!
    If I understand correctly, SARS-Cov-2 is the virus and COVID-19 is the disease.

    I see what you mean about the high percentage of asymptomatic cases. Based on what I've read, I have been guessing the figure is more like 75%.

    But given what we know about the disease generally being more severe in men than women, and in older rather than younger people, perhaps it's not too unexpected that the figure could be 88% in younger women - even without considering any special effects of pregnancy.
    I find it interesting that respected experts in various countries seem to have such widely varying numbers for the asymptomatic. Some say 80%. Some say 30%.

    Combined with the widely varying effect the disease has from country to country - and indeed within population groups - it seems to me there is something(s) missing in our understanding of this disease.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Looks in - sees the loon in chief is carrying on where he left off last night

    Walks out
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Endillion said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.
    An alternative explanation is that Britain actually has a comparatively strong capacity to manufacture PPE and ventilators, and the 'EU procurement scheme' was a means of allowing smaller countries who lacked this capacity to share in its fruits. It would explain why the EU was so keen to allow Britain to join the scheme, despite their previous inflexible stances on cherry-picking aspects of EU membership, and why the government has provided so many contradictory reasons as to why it chose not to. If this proves to be true, no doubt Alistair will switch from blaming the government for letting British subjects die due to Europhobic dogma to blaming the government for letting EU subjects die due to Europhobic dogma.
    AM believed that there were no strawberries in the supermarkets in the summer of 2018.

    He has a long standing derangement on this subject.
    I’m afraid a citation is needed for that claim.

    (Spoiler: you won’t find it.)
    Yet you know its true.

    There was a reason I gave a daily Tesco strawberry score in 2018.
    Go looking. You won’t find a citation for what you claimed.

    It’s not my fault if you misread what I actually wrote.
    One of you is clearly clutching at strawberries.
    Nicely fraised.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Hold on, if there's an EU procurement scheme then why are so many EU countries in the same position as we are wrt PPE and in a worse position with ventilators?

    The solution to both problems is to get UK manufacturing to pick the slack. The fault lies with the government for not bringing UK industry in earlier. Any EU scheme would have been a distraction and resulted in the same shortages we have now and can see everywhere else in Europe despite this scheme.

    There is a huge lesson here, it is that global supply chains can and will break down, losing the skills base in manufacturing (which thankfully we haven't) would have led to an even worse situation.

    As I said previously, the government has been very poor on reaching out to UK industry for testing and PPE. It did well with the ventilators, one design is approved and now set for deliveries this week, one is nearing approval and one needs minor tweaks and will be specific to treating this virus. The question that needs to be asked is why the same approach wasn't taken early on with testing and PPE, the other two areas we have fallen badly short.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,833
    Chris said:

    Cookie said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:
    If I understand correctly around 0.1% of the population of New York City have already died. Given that figure, it seems surprising the infection rate in that sample is so low.
    Basic question: does SARS-Cov-2 above mean COVID-19? I assume so from the context but I'm slightly confused by the terminology.

    If so, I think this figure is remarkable and surprising. The blue segment I think we can put to one side: these are simply those who have managed not to catch the virus yet, which should not be too unsurprising given that it is still relatively new to New York. The exciting thing is the comparison of orange to grey; of those who tested positive for the sample, 90% are asymptomatic. Which perhaps gives some encouragement to those backing Oxford over Imperial.

    Happy for anyone thinking more deeply to correct me!
    If I understand correctly, SARS-Cov-2 is the virus and COVID-19 is the disease.

    I see what you mean about the high percentage of asymptomatic cases. Based on what I've read, I have been guessing the figure is more like 75%.

    But given what we know about the disease generally being more severe in men than women, and in older rather than younger people, perhaps it's not too unexpected that the figure could be 88% in younger women - even without considering any special effects of pregnancy.
    Chris, I'm going to interpret this as good news (albeit that I started from a position of extreme pessimism).
    I do take your point that if 0.1% of the population of New York have already died then this isn't 'just like flu' - but to me it never was, so this doesn't make me sadder than I already am.

    We know that more men and more old people die, but do we know whether more men and/or old people get symptoms? I'm not sure we do. I thought it was that women and youngsters just had immune systems which could better fight off the virus when it arrives.

    But either way, 90% asymptomatic or your slightly more conservative estimate of 75% would be great news, since it would imply that we are already far further through this pandemic than we might think. This has been the straw I have been clinging to.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.
    An alternative explanation is that Britain actually has a comparatively strong capacity to manufacture PPE and ventilators, and the 'EU procurement scheme' was a means of allowing smaller countries who lacked this capacity to share in its fruits. It would explain why the EU was so keen to allow Britain to join the scheme, despite their previous inflexible stances on cherry-picking aspects of EU membership, and why the government has provided so many contradictory reasons as to why it chose not to. If this proves to be true, no doubt Alistair will switch from blaming the government for letting British subjects die due to Europhobic dogma to blaming the government for letting EU subjects die due to Europhobic dogma.
    AM believed that there were no strawberries in the supermarkets in the summer of 2018.

    He has a long standing derangement on this subject.
    I’m afraid a citation is needed for that claim.

    (Spoiler: you won’t find it.)
    Yet you know its true.

    There was a reason I gave a daily Tesco strawberry score in 2018.
    Go looking. You won’t find a citation for what you claimed.

    It’s not my fault if you misread what I actually wrote.
    I'm enjoying the seamless transition of the Brexit extremists from "fruit picking problems are fake news" to "hurrah that we have no strawberries".

    https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/05/31/__trashed-4/#vanilla-comments

    The responses you get are amusing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    If this proves to be true

    A mere detail surely before rushing to judgment?
    Merely a scenario worth entertaining before calling for government officials to be prosecuted for manslaughter and fellow posters to be sectioned.

    Go looking. You won’t find a citation for what you claimed.

    Hardly surprising, with 29,000 posts and no search function.

    Crown immunity protects Government ministers from prosecution anyway
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.
    An alternative explanation is that Britain actually has a comparatively strong capacity to manufacture PPE and ventilators, and the 'EU procurement scheme' was a means of allowing smaller countries who lacked this capacity to share in its fruits. It would explain why the EU was so keen to allow Britain to join the scheme, despite their previous inflexible stances on cherry-picking aspects of EU membership, and why the government has provided so many contradictory reasons as to why it chose not to. If this proves to be true, no doubt Alistair will switch from blaming the government for letting British subjects die due to Europhobic dogma to blaming the government for letting EU subjects die due to Europhobic dogma.
    AM believed that there were no strawberries in the supermarkets in the summer of 2018.

    He has a long standing derangement on this subject.
    I’m afraid a citation is needed for that claim.

    (Spoiler: you won’t find it.)
    Yet you know its true.

    There was a reason I gave a daily Tesco strawberry score in 2018.
    Go looking. You won’t find a citation for what you claimed.

    It’s not my fault if you misread what I actually wrote.
    I'm enjoying the seamless transition of the Brexit extremists from "fruit picking problems are fake news" to "hurrah that we have no strawberries".

    https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/05/31/__trashed-4/#vanilla-comments

    The responses you get are amusing.
    You think that's a citation for what you claimed?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    HYUFD said:

    If this proves to be true

    A mere detail surely before rushing to judgment?
    Merely a scenario worth entertaining before calling for government officials to be prosecuted for manslaughter and fellow posters to be sectioned.

    Go looking. You won’t find a citation for what you claimed.

    Hardly surprising, with 29,000 posts and no search function.

    Crown immunity protects Government ministers from prosecution anyway
    What, the whole herd of them?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    Cookie said:

    Chris said:

    Cookie said:

    Chris said:

    Nigelb said:
    If I understand correctly around 0.1% of the population of New York City have already died. Given that figure, it seems surprising the infection rate in that sample is so low.
    Basic question: does SARS-Cov-2 above mean COVID-19? I assume so from the context but I'm slightly confused by the terminology.

    If so, I think this figure is remarkable and surprising. The blue segment I think we can put to one side: these are simply those who have managed not to catch the virus yet, which should not be too unsurprising given that it is still relatively new to New York. The exciting thing is the comparison of orange to grey; of those who tested positive for the sample, 90% are asymptomatic. Which perhaps gives some encouragement to those backing Oxford over Imperial.

    Happy for anyone thinking more deeply to correct me!
    If I understand correctly, SARS-Cov-2 is the virus and COVID-19 is the disease.

    I see what you mean about the high percentage of asymptomatic cases. Based on what I've read, I have been guessing the figure is more like 75%.

    But given what we know about the disease generally being more severe in men than women, and in older rather than younger people, perhaps it's not too unexpected that the figure could be 88% in younger women - even without considering any special effects of pregnancy.
    Chris, I'm going to interpret this as good news (albeit that I started from a position of extreme pessimism).
    I do take your point that if 0.1% of the population of New York have already died then this isn't 'just like flu' - but to me it never was, so this doesn't make me sadder than I already am.

    We know that more men and more old people die, but do we know whether more men and/or old people get symptoms? I'm not sure we do. I thought it was that women and youngsters just had immune systems which could better fight off the virus when it arrives.

    But either way, 90% asymptomatic or your slightly more conservative estimate of 75% would be great news, since it would imply that we are already far further through this pandemic than we might think. This has been the straw I have been clinging to.
    My guess is still that in this wave maybe 15% of the UK population will be infected. If they retain immunity that would slow down the spread in future to some extent, but wouldn't be anything like enough for herd immunity in normal life.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    Only 52%?

    "Heathrow passenger numbers fall by 52%"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-52233645
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    If this proves to be true

    A mere detail surely before rushing to judgment?
    Merely a scenario worth entertaining before calling for government officials to be prosecuted for manslaughter and fellow posters to be sectioned.

    Go looking. You won’t find a citation for what you claimed.

    Hardly surprising, with 29,000 posts and no search function.

    Crown immunity protects Government ministers from prosecution anyway
    Only when at least 60% of them have been indicted.
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    Andy_JS said:

    Only 52%?

    "Heathrow passenger numbers fall by 52%"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-52233645

    I'm surprised it's only by that...who are the other 48% still flying?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Andy_JS said:

    Only 52%?

    "Heathrow passenger numbers fall by 52%"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-52233645

    That's for the first quarter, January and most of February were pretty normal for travelling.
  • HYUFD said:
    Why? Because the cult have decided to try and nuke the entire site from orbit having been forced to take off.

    I know that Nick P doesn't want to get involved and I get that - but he is involved. The fight has been brought, and there simply isn't a way to square the circle when you have Labour members bereft of sanity. They literally believe their revisionist nonsense about 2016 and 2017 and in 2019 when its all their fault they attack the voters as being to blame.

    Unless compromise can be found then its binary - stay or go. I went. Now that the loons are in orbit I have come back. And they need to be dispatched and quickly because this will never ever end.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    timmo said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Only 52%?

    "Heathrow passenger numbers fall by 52%"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-52233645

    I'm surprised it's only by that...who are the other 48% still flying?
    Remainers, obviously.

    Internationalists to their very core...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    HYUFD said:
    Why? Because the cult have decided to try and nuke the entire site from orbit having been forced to take off.

    I know that Nick P doesn't want to get involved and I get that - but he is involved. The fight has been brought, and there simply isn't a way to square the circle when you have Labour members bereft of sanity. They literally believe their revisionist nonsense about 2016 and 2017 and in 2019 when its all their fault they attack the voters as being to blame.

    Unless compromise can be found then its binary - stay or go. I went. Now that the loons are in orbit I have come back. And they need to be dispatched and quickly because this will never ever end.
    Is there a book on the timing of the first sacking from the shadow ministerial team?

    Starmer needs to get brutal.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,603
    MaxPB said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Only 52%?

    "Heathrow passenger numbers fall by 52%"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-52233645

    That's for the first quarter, January and most of February were pretty normal for travelling.
    Indeed. No-one is flying anywhere now bar a few repatriation flights, and the occasional key worker needing to get somewhere on one of the skeleton-service mostly-cargo flights.

    As a guesstimate no more than a couple of thousand a day through LHR, more than 98% down on 'normal'.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited April 2020
    HYUFD said:
    Pushing a theory that a GOP independent would hurt Biden more than Trump based on a 600 person poll is 'brave'.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    Endillion said:

    timmo said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Only 52%?

    "Heathrow passenger numbers fall by 52%"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-52233645

    I'm surprised it's only by that...who are the other 48% still flying?
    Remainers, obviously.

    Internationalists to their very core...
    The number is for the whole of March and things were not closed until the 19th (?).

    The April fall is going to be about 90%.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Scott_xP said:
    Who are those who think Covid-19 is being overstated? Even of those who think that the economic loss is too great to sustain the lockdown much longer, those who are going "meh" to the virus and its deaths are surely a tiny subset.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Read the Labour report yesterday. Main takeouts -

    (1) Antisemitism was a very real issue. It was not a smear.
    (2) The party failed to deal with it. Before 2018 they did almost nothing.
    (3) From 2015 Blairites plotted against Labour. They wanted the party defeated.

    And (3) was a factor contributing to (2).
  • HYUFD said:
    Why? Because the cult have decided to try and nuke the entire site from orbit having been forced to take off.

    I know that Nick P doesn't want to get involved and I get that - but he is involved. The fight has been brought, and there simply isn't a way to square the circle when you have Labour members bereft of sanity. They literally believe their revisionist nonsense about 2016 and 2017 and in 2019 when its all their fault they attack the voters as being to blame.

    Unless compromise can be found then its binary - stay or go. I went. Now that the loons are in orbit I have come back. And they need to be dispatched and quickly because this will never ever end.
    Is there a book on the timing of the first sacking from the shadow ministerial team?

    Starmer needs to get brutal.
    MPs have signed a demand which would leave the party literally bankrupt. There isn't the need for further discussion. Remove the whip from them all. They brought the fight, no point trying to obfuscate around it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,603
    Scott_xP said:
    Using "All Deaths" stats YoY is probably about the best metric right now, with all the uncertainty over 'died from' and 'died with', and hospital vs outside deaths.

    Few people are dead more than a day before it gets officially recorded, as opposed to more detailed enquiries about what might be the causes of death.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,833

    Scott_xP said:
    Who are those who think Covid-19 is being overstated? Even of those who think that the economic loss is too great to sustain the lockdown much longer, those who are going "meh" to the virus and its deaths are surely a tiny subset.
    In fact, that graphic gives a much more encouraging picture than the mood music tends to project.
    Would be interesting to compare with similar data for other countries. Though as has been previously noted there is only a subset of countries which has data which can be broadly trusted as accurate.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    edited April 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    His words yesterday make no sense unless he believes in conspiracy theories, hence reference, bitterly, about mainstream media and state narratives. A weak attempt to roll back.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    edited April 2020
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.

    He does have a small window of opportunity here, to sort out the factionalism in relative peace and quiet, should he wish to do so.

    On the other hand, Guido’s managed to get a copy of the full, unredacted, 850 page report. Even he isn’t publishing it though, which suggests it’s very explosive indeed.
    I thought it was widely available.

    I found a copy in just a few seconds yesterday. Doubtless due on BitTorrent soon.

    You won't want to read all of it. There's a lorra-lorra report.


  • johnoundlejohnoundle Posts: 120
    MaxPB said:

    Hold on, if there's an EU procurement scheme then why are so many EU countries in the same position as we are wrt PPE and in a worse position with ventilators?

    The solution to both problems is to get UK manufacturing to pick the slack. The fault lies with the government for not bringing UK industry in earlier. Any EU scheme would have been a distraction and resulted in the same shortages we have now and can see everywhere else in Europe despite this scheme.

    There is a huge lesson here, it is that global supply chains can and will break down, losing the skills base in manufacturing (which thankfully we haven't) would have led to an even worse situation.

    As I said previously, the government has been very poor on reaching out to UK industry for testing and PPE. It did well with the ventilators, one design is approved and now set for deliveries this week, one is nearing approval and one needs minor tweaks and will be specific to treating this virus. The question that needs to be asked is why the same approach wasn't taken early on with testing and PPE, the other two areas we have fallen badly short.



    On 24 March the EU advised they had received quotes for PPE & Ventilators & that they would be reviewing & signing contracts within a few days.

    Are they expecting to jump the queue? as global PPE capacity is full (in case anyone hadn't noticed!).The largest capacity in terms of supply is China,followed by Mexico & then much lower levels of capacity in Taiwan,Turkey & Vietnam.

    Another recent issue has been non approved companies getting involved,(many in China), with sub standard products being supplied to EU countries.
    The Netherlands, Finland & Spain being recent examples of countries receiving product that had to be rejected as sub standard.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Scott_xP said:
    Who are those who think Covid-19 is being overstated? Even of those who think that the economic loss is too great to sustain the lockdown much longer, those who are going "meh" to the virus and its deaths are surely a tiny subset.
    Twitter has been awash with people posting about 5 year and 10 averages and how we were below the line and there is no huge ramp up of deaths and how the daily numbers were wrong and gave a totally false impression etc etc. They kept being posted on here

    That they were using lagged numbers (the ONS data set or the NHS England dataset) was always very, very conspicuous.

    Now their favourite data set, the weekly ONS figures has started showing a big spike and it is still a week behind!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    An interesting story of Biden's executive experience:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/joe-biden-oversaw-recovery-during-last-recession/609646/

    Though of course he's now a decade older.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    Scott_xP said:
    Heard his comments. Shocked. Never liked the guy - unpleasant vibe to him - but had not realized he was an actual dumbo. Probably has to go now. Shame for him, of course, but I think the rest of us will cope. He doesn't do anything that Richard Madeley can't do ten times better.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,003
    kle4 said:

    His words yesterday make no sense unless he believes in conspiracy theories, hence reference, bitterly, about mainstream media and state narratives. A weak attempt to roll back.

    https://twitter.com/PeatWorrier/status/1249996416082206721
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    That would suggest a death toll of perhaps 1 in 2000 Londoners so far.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    kinabalu said:

    Read the Labour report yesterday. Main takeouts -

    (1) Antisemitism was a very real issue. It was not a smear.
    (2) The party failed to deal with it. Before 2018 they did almost nothing.
    (3) From 2015 Blairites plotted against Labour. They wanted the party defeated.

    And (3) was a factor contributing to (2).

    Some classic reasoning here:

    1. Labour does not have an antisemitism problem
    2. OK, so it has an antisemitism problem but it is not "overrun" by antisemitism
    3. OK, so it was overrun by antisemitism but it's not our fault

    How long until:
    4. OK, so it was our fault but it's all in the past, no action needed
    5. OK so actions needed so we're scapegoating a few of our people?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Alistair said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Who are those who think Covid-19 is being overstated? Even of those who think that the economic loss is too great to sustain the lockdown much longer, those who are going "meh" to the virus and its deaths are surely a tiny subset.
    Twitter has been awash with people posting about 5 year and 10 averages and how we were below the line and there is no huge ramp up of deaths and how the daily numbers were wrong and gave a totally false impression etc etc. They kept being posted on here

    That they were using lagged numbers (the ONS data set or the NHS England dataset) was always very, very conspicuous.

    Now their favourite data set, the weekly ONS figures has started showing a big spike and it is still a week behind!
    New York figures show an equally dramatic spike (more so because they report more frequently).
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    HYUFD said:
    Why? Because the cult have decided to try and nuke the entire site from orbit having been forced to take off.

    I know that Nick P doesn't want to get involved and I get that - but he is involved. The fight has been brought, and there simply isn't a way to square the circle when you have Labour members bereft of sanity. They literally believe their revisionist nonsense about 2016 and 2017 and in 2019 when its all their fault they attack the voters as being to blame.

    Unless compromise can be found then its binary - stay or go. I went. Now that the loons are in orbit I have come back. And they need to be dispatched and quickly because this will never ever end.
    Is there a book on the timing of the first sacking from the shadow ministerial team?

    Starmer needs to get brutal.
    MPs have signed a demand which would leave the party literally bankrupt. There isn't the need for further discussion. Remove the whip from them all. They brought the fight, no point trying to obfuscate around it.
    To be fair, it's probably because they're thick, rather than because they actually want to bankrupt the party.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Heard his comments. Shocked. Never liked the guy - unpleasant vibe to him - but had not realized he was an actual dumbo. Probably has to go now. Shame for him, of course, but I think the rest of us will cope. He doesn't do anything that Richard Madeley can't do ten times better.
    I am always interested by people who think that science is part of buffet -

    "Hmmm.... I'll take a slice of Global Warming, a side of Gloop and for desert some Astrology"
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,620

    TGOHF666 said:

    Socky said:

    There will be a time when manslaughter charges will need to be considered in relation to the relevant government ministers for this failure:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1249950265308000257?s=21

    How would this have caused more PPE to be manufactured?
    If, as looks highly likely, less PPE is available in Britain in a couple of weeks’ time than would have been the case if the government had not refused to join this scheme because of Europhobic dogma, it is almost certain that people will die as a result. The people responsible for that decision should be prosecuted.
    You'd be the one squealing loudest of all when it was civil servants who get prosecuted...
    Not at all. Anyone responsible for this decision needs to face the consequences of it.

    Not noticing too many Leavers speaking up for the need to secure whatever PPE Britain can by whatever means it can. Here’s your opportunity.

    But perhaps the visceral hatred of the EU extends to the point of refusing PPE from it even if it would save lives.
    More a complete lack of belief that any product would actually have come the UK's way. The only evidence I have seen so far is of countries looking after their own. Where you see hatred, others might see cynicism, maybe realism - that the EU would say "They've left - fuck 'em. Give the kit to our people."
    Ah, the deranged paranoia of the true Europhobe. When that’s all you’ve got left, the padded cell awaits you.
    It is an entirely sensible strategy to use Uk based resources to kick start new sources of PPE, tests, ventilators etc.

    a) Smaller logistics chains.
    b) Lower risk from transportation "issues"
    c) Higher level of oversight
    d) Patriotic boost to productivity.
    e) Complete control over supply once established.

    A far better use of resources in the long battle ahead than getting a small slice of a one off delivery from China via the EU.
    An alternative explanation is that Britain actually has a comparatively strong capacity to manufacture PPE and ventilators, and the 'EU procurement scheme' was a means of allowing smaller countries who lacked this capacity to share in its fruits. It would explain why the EU was so keen to allow Britain to join the scheme, despite their previous inflexible stances on cherry-picking aspects of EU membership, and why the government has provided so many contradictory reasons as to why it chose not to. If this proves to be true, no doubt Alistair will switch from blaming the government for letting British subjects die due to Europhobic dogma to blaming the government for letting EU subjects die due to Europhobic dogma.
    AM believed that there were no strawberries in the supermarkets in the summer of 2018.

    He has a long standing derangement on this subject.
    I’m afraid a citation is needed for that claim.

    (Spoiler: you won’t find it.)
    Yet you know its true.

    There was a reason I gave a daily Tesco strawberry score in 2018.
    Go looking. You won’t find a citation for what you claimed.

    It’s not my fault if you misread what I actually wrote.
    I'm enjoying the seamless transition of the Brexit extremists from "fruit picking problems are fake news" to "hurrah that we have no strawberries".

    https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/05/31/__trashed-4/#vanilla-comments

    The responses you get are amusing.
    You think that's a citation for what you claimed?
    Why not, you know it is.

    I fear you have become the mirror image of the ideologues you condemn - whereas they might oppose any connections with the EU you oppose anything they do and so support joining any EU scheme.

    Whereas to my mind the sensible strategy is one of help and co-operation where possible but detachment if necessary.

    I would also somewhat doubt whether there are that many ideologues in government and whether they have much effect on the great inertial mass of statist bureaucracy in any case.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,264
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Using "All Deaths" stats YoY is probably about the best metric right now, with all the uncertainty over 'died from' and 'died with', and hospital vs outside deaths.

    Few people are dead more than a day before it gets officially recorded, as opposed to more detailed enquiries about what might be the causes of death.
    Am I reading this correctly? c. 4500 extra deaths in a single week?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,603
    edited April 2020
    MattW said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Fortunately for Starmer, no one is paying attention to this.

    He does have a small window of opportunity here, to sort out the factionalism in relative peace and quiet, should he wish to do so.

    On the other hand, Guido’s managed to get a copy of the full, unredacted, 850 page report. Even he isn’t publishing it though, which suggests it’s very explosive indeed.
    I thought it was widely available.

    I found a copy in just a few seconds yesterday. Doubtless due on BitTorrent soon.

    You won't want to read all of it. There's a lorra-lorra report.
    Only a few pages in on Google if you know the right search term, and yes it's already on BitTorrent. Most 'mainstream' sites such as Reddit and Scribd have pulled it though, and no doubt legal pressure is being applied to those still hosting it.

    I'm saving my copy for a very rainy day. Which in the sandpit might be around December! There's a large Netflix queue that's much more important to work through in the meantime.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Excellent article by Fallows in the Atlantic.

    This Is How It Looks When You're Not Afraid
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/fauci-trump/609916/
    ...The common theme that connects these people is that, one way or another, they have seemed afraid of Donald Trump. I am sure they would deny that if asked directly. But their actions are consistent with their being fearful of what would happen if they don’t do what Trump wants, or tell him what he so desperately wants to hear.

    They may be afraid that he will attack them in a tweetstorm. Afraid that he will support a primary opponent. Afraid that they will be cut off from the social connectedness and the economic benefits of being a long-term part of the Republican team. Afraid … of something. Donald Trump is very obviously not a well-informed person (“A lot of people don’t know this, but Abraham Lincoln was a Republican”). And he would fail most tests of evidence-based logical reasoning. But he has a natural talent for sizing up people, in a Who is the alpha dog? sense. Just as he clearly feels that Russian President Vladimir Putin is the alpha dog, to Trump’s own beta, Trump can sense the submission from everyone around him in GOP politics. They may “privately” have contempt for his judgment and principles. They may call him a “moron” behind his back. But he knows that, if he’s in a snarling match with one of them, the other will be the one to back down...
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    edited April 2020

    HYUFD said:
    Why? Because the cult have decided to try and nuke the entire site from orbit having been forced to take off.

    I know that Nick P doesn't want to get involved and I get that - but he is involved. The fight has been brought, and there simply isn't a way to square the circle when you have Labour members bereft of sanity. They literally believe their revisionist nonsense about 2016 and 2017 and in 2019 when its all their fault they attack the voters as being to blame.

    Unless compromise can be found then its binary - stay or go. I went. Now that the loons are in orbit I have come back. And they need to be dispatched and quickly because this will never ever end.
    Is there a book on the timing of the first sacking from the shadow ministerial team?

    Starmer needs to get brutal.
    MPs have signed a demand which would leave the party literally bankrupt. There isn't the need for further discussion. Remove the whip from them all. They brought the fight, no point trying to obfuscate around it.
    Why are you such an angry man? Can you not conceive why a wing of Labour is so distressed to find that their close running campaigns were neutered by senior administrators. Tranches of funding used with no oversight, and favoured MPs given preferential access to money. There is even evidence of campaign data not being provided to those on the ground. This had a real effect on the 2017 campaign.

    Can you not see that this is systemic nepotism and it will cost the entity the trust of a significant percentage of its dues paying members?

    Your partisan comments on this site suggest that you see this as a war and you will not be happy until these MPs are removed. IMO this makes you no different from the Momentumites calling for mandatory reselection. You are the worst kind of party man, one that can only view the issue through their own prism and refuse to accept that labour will have a left wing element. No doubt, you will again leave the party when it won't conform to your blinkered sectarianism.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Heard his comments. Shocked. Never liked the guy - unpleasant vibe to him - but had not realized he was an actual dumbo. Probably has to go now. Shame for him, of course, but I think the rest of us will cope. He doesn't do anything that Richard Madeley can't do ten times better.
    I am always interested by people who think that science is part of buffet -

    "Hmmm.... I'll take a slice of Global Warming, a side of Gloop and for desert some Astrology"
    Holmes: Did someone mention a buffet?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Using "All Deaths" stats YoY is probably about the best metric right now, with all the uncertainty over 'died from' and 'died with', and hospital vs outside deaths.

    Few people are dead more than a day before it gets officially recorded, as opposed to more detailed enquiries about what might be the causes of death.
    Am I reading this correctly? c. 4500 extra deaths in a single week?
    More like 6000, I think.

    This is not inconsistent with the expectation of around 50,000 deaths in this wave.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,041
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    timmo said:

    Today will be an awful day for the Government and our country. The ONS will be issuing data showing deaths involving Covid 19 from outside of hospitals. This will include care homes. The numbers date back from March 27th so expect them to be high. Even if it's only 50 a day that will be well over another 1000.
    Professor Vallance alluded to this yesterday when he said this week would be very difficult.

    I think that the spread to care home fatalities has mostly been in the last week or two, but big numbers I expect..
    I think it’s true that average life expectancy of someone going into a care home is in the region of nine months?
    six, I think, but a broad range from weeks to years.
    My mother did not manage 9 days.
This discussion has been closed.