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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » David Cameron once said Dominic Cummings was a ‘career psychop

SystemSystem Posts: 12,170
edited March 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » David Cameron once said Dominic Cummings was a ‘career psychopath’, here’s further proof for David Cameron’s assertion.

David Cameron once said Dominic Cummings was a 'career psychopath', here's further proof for David Cameron's assertion. This is the sort of thing that could destroy the Tory party forever. https://t.co/c2eoGtqZ0u

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878
    first?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    It's proof that a "whitehall official" is waging an internal war at a point they should be focused on keeping the country as safe as can be
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    They should really make clear that's not a Cummings quote, but from someone else - and that someone else who clearly has an agenda.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    I don’t think it will destroy the Tory Party. The kryptonite that will destroy the Tory Party has yet to be found. But it might hasten Cummings (in my view inevitable anyway) departure.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited March 2020
    Except Boris and Whitty clearly discarded Cummings advice on this weeks ago and the Netherlands pursued herd immunity for a longer period than we did.

    Plus even yesterday Matthew Parris was advising herd immunity for everyone bar the elderly and vulnerable in the Times and Parris is as wet a Remainer as they come and far from Cummings' ideology
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crashing-the-economy-will-also-cost-lives-l9kz50dqb
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Charles said:

    It's proof that a "whitehall official" is waging an internal war at a point they should be focused on keeping the country as safe as can be

    It’s not proof of anything.
    It’s a piece of evidence capable of varying interpretation. No doubt more will emerge in the fullness of time; until then, it’s pure speculation.

    If it is true, you can understand why someone would want to leak it.
  • Liverpool stewards are volunteering to help with crowd control and assisting the elderly with their shopping at supermarkets, the club’s chief executive has said.

    Over the past few days images have been shared of chaotic scenes at supermarkets as long queues form for groceries, while a number of branches have introduced restrictions to prevent panic buying during the ongoing coronavirus outbreak.

    Liverpool chief executive Peter Moore said his club’s stewards were on hand to help manage the situation.

    “Message to supermarket managers here on Merseyside. Our stadium stewards here LFC are offering their time and expertise in volunteering to help with crowd control, queue management, parking control, assisting the elderly and infirm taking their groceries to their cars, etc,” Moore wrote on Twitter.

    “They are truly the best in the business and would be delighted to help in whatever way you would deem appropriate (and safe) on your premises. Please DM me so that I can put you in contact. YNWA”

    It is the latest gesture from football clubs, a number of whom have already donated food, pledged help with food banks, or donated the use of facilities to healthcare services in recent days.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/mar/22/liverpool-fc-ceo-offers-club-stewards-assist-crowds-supermarkets-coronavirus
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:

    Except Boris and Whitty clearly discarded Cummings advice on this weeks ago and the Netherlands pursued herd immunity for a longer period than we did.

    Plus even yesterday Matthew Parris was advising herd immunity for everyone bar the elderly and vulnerable in the Times and Parris is as wet a Remainer as they come and far from Cummings' ideology
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crashing-the-economy-will-also-cost-lives-l9kz50dqb

    Mate, it’s not the herd immunity strategy, it’s the comment about pensioners dying that is the problem here. Specifically the sentence ending “...too bad.”
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    It's proof that a "whitehall official" is waging an internal war at a point they should be focused on keeping the country as safe as can be

    It’s not proof of anything.
    It’s a piece of evidence capable of varying interpretation. No doubt more will emerge in the fullness of time; until then, it’s pure speculation.

    If it is true, you can understand why someone would want to leak it.
    Actually, no, I can't.

    As soon as you start leaking internal advice from officials then you cramp their ability to express their views. Additionally the quote is deliberately designed to damage Cummings.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Andrew said:

    They should really make clear that's not a Cummings quote, but from someone else - and that someone else who clearly has an agenda.

    That's a fair point. The problem is that it seems eminently credible because of other things he's verifiably said - if say John Major or even Rees-Mogg was quoted as saying it, none of us would believe it for a second.

    Nipped out in the "over 70s hour" at Sainsbury this morning, and it was well-stocked. Friends in Broxtowe say the same of their branch. So apart from one or two items (paracetamol still seems scarce), maybe the "don'r panic buy" message has got through.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Liverpool stewards are volunteering to help with crowd control and assisting the elderly with their shopping at supermarkets, the club’s chief executive has said.

    Over the past few days images have been shared of chaotic scenes at supermarkets as long queues form for groceries, while a number of branches have introduced restrictions to prevent panic buying during the ongoing coronavirus outbreak.

    Liverpool chief executive Peter Moore said his club’s stewards were on hand to help manage the situation.

    “Message to supermarket managers here on Merseyside. Our stadium stewards here LFC are offering their time and expertise in volunteering to help with crowd control, queue management, parking control, assisting the elderly and infirm taking their groceries to their cars, etc,” Moore wrote on Twitter.

    “They are truly the best in the business and would be delighted to help in whatever way you would deem appropriate (and safe) on your premises. Please DM me so that I can put you in contact. YNWA”

    It is the latest gesture from football clubs, a number of whom have already donated food, pledged help with food banks, or donated the use of facilities to healthcare services in recent days.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/mar/22/liverpool-fc-ceo-offers-club-stewards-assist-crowds-supermarkets-coronavirus

    Are these the same people who just helped with crowd control for the Madrid game? Because if you're elderly you really want to stay away fron those people. If possible stay away from Liverpool.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DougSeal said:

    HYUFD said:

    Except Boris and Whitty clearly discarded Cummings advice on this weeks ago and the Netherlands pursued herd immunity for a longer period than we did.

    Plus even yesterday Matthew Parris was advising herd immunity for everyone bar the elderly and vulnerable in the Times and Parris is as wet a Remainer as they come and far from Cummings' ideology
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crashing-the-economy-will-also-cost-lives-l9kz50dqb

    Mate, it’s not the herd immunity strategy, it’s the comment about pensioners dying that is the problem here. Specifically the sentence ending “...too bad.”
    And that is NOT a quote from Cummings.

    It is the person-who-planted-the-story's claim/interpretation of what Cummings allegedly said
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    It's proof that a "whitehall official" is waging an internal war at a point they should be focused on keeping the country as safe as can be

    It’s not proof of anything.
    It’s a piece of evidence capable of varying interpretation. No doubt more will emerge in the fullness of time; until then, it’s pure speculation.

    If it is true, you can understand why someone would want to leak it.
    Actually, no, I can't.

    As soon as you start leaking internal advice from officials then you cramp their ability to express their views. Additionally the quote is deliberately designed to damage Cummings.
    If you think one of them, who possesses outsize influence, is a dangerous psychopath, then cramping the ability of officials to express their views is something of a secondary consideration.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Cummings is being scapegoated here. The focus on this article shouldn't be that one paragraph- the previous bit about there being a huge government U-turn when they realised that 100,000 deaths was going to be more like 250k or 500k is far more important.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    Charles said:

    It's proof that a "whitehall official" is waging an internal war at a point they should be focused on keeping the country as safe as can be

    Where is a Whitehall official mentioned?

    My reading is that at a private engagement (i.e. not govt business) Cummings is alleged to have said this by several people present ["those present"].

    I think it's highly plausible that in his quest to be a misunderstood science genius, he would have said something that sounded a lot like that.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    In the same category as the Downing Street wonk who suggested the UK no longer needed farmers or fishermen. Which hasn’t aged well, either.
  • Liverpool stewards are volunteering to help with crowd control and assisting the elderly with their shopping at supermarkets, the club’s chief executive has said.

    Over the past few days images have been shared of chaotic scenes at supermarkets as long queues form for groceries, while a number of branches have introduced restrictions to prevent panic buying during the ongoing coronavirus outbreak.

    Liverpool chief executive Peter Moore said his club’s stewards were on hand to help manage the situation.

    “Message to supermarket managers here on Merseyside. Our stadium stewards here LFC are offering their time and expertise in volunteering to help with crowd control, queue management, parking control, assisting the elderly and infirm taking their groceries to their cars, etc,” Moore wrote on Twitter.

    “They are truly the best in the business and would be delighted to help in whatever way you would deem appropriate (and safe) on your premises. Please DM me so that I can put you in contact. YNWA”

    It is the latest gesture from football clubs, a number of whom have already donated food, pledged help with food banks, or donated the use of facilities to healthcare services in recent days.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/mar/22/liverpool-fc-ceo-offers-club-stewards-assist-crowds-supermarkets-coronavirus

    Are these the same people who just helped with crowd control for the Madrid game? Because if you're elderly you really want to stay away fron those people. If possible stay away from Liverpool.
    That will be 14 days ago in a few days.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Seriously. At this point in time to be running threads of this type seems to me to be highly irresponsible. At best it seems to be an attempt to shaft Cummings who is supremely irrelevant to what everyone should be focussed on. Staggering.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Charles said:

    It's proof that a "whitehall official" is waging an internal war at a point they should be focused on keeping the country as safe as can be

    Well, yes, but Cummings has always been pretty clueless about what his real target should be, so it’s not surprising he’s ‘waging an internal war at a point they should be focused on keeping the country as safe as can be.’
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    rkrkrk said:

    Charles said:

    It's proof that a "whitehall official" is waging an internal war at a point they should be focused on keeping the country as safe as can be

    Where is a Whitehall official mentioned?

    My reading is that at a private engagement (i.e. not govt business) Cummings is alleged to have said this by several people present ["those present"].

    I think it's highly plausible that in his quest to be a misunderstood science genius, he would have said something that sounded a lot like that.
    Assuming that it’s true (which has not begun to be proven), then Cummings is actually the leaker.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    If, when all this is said and done, the cost of the economic damage from an extended lockdown is an order of magnitude greater than the value of the quality-adjusted life years saved, then the supposedly "callous" response would have been the right one.

    I'm glad I'm not in government because it means I don't have to make decisions like risking the nation's economy, social stability and potentially even food and fuel security, versus allowing 3.4% of the population to die. But that is the nature of the job. For now, we have chosen. I hope it is the right choice.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Snowdonia National Park Authority said its area "experienced its busiest ever visitor day in living memory" on Saturday.
  • DAlexanderDAlexander Posts: 815
    I suspect this has been leaked from well off senior civil servants who don't want their cosy status quo disrupted by Cummings.

    Is there any evidence that Boris wasn't following the advice of the CMO? I seem to remember him standing next to him when the "herd immunity" plan was announced.
  • felix said:

    Seriously. At this point in time to be running threads of this type seems to me to be highly irresponsible. At best it seems to be an attempt to shaft Cummings who is supremely irrelevant to what everyone should be focussed on. Staggering.

    I think what is really irresponsible is the PM's Chief Adviser misunderstanding the Covid-19 and then selectively briefing friendly journalists.

    If he can share his misunderstandings with journalists then he is likely to be giving the PM incorrect advice, and I'm someone who has gone out of his way to largely praise Boris Johnson for his handling of the crisis.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    kyf_100 said:

    If, when all this is said and done, the cost of the economic damage from an extended lockdown is an order of magnitude greater than the value of the quality-adjusted life years saved, then the supposedly "callous" response would have been the right one.

    I'm glad I'm not in government because it means I don't have to make decisions like risking the nation's economy, social stability and potentially even food and fuel security, versus allowing 3.4% of the population to die. But that is the nature of the job. For now, we have chosen. I hope it is the right choice.

    The problem with the “shield the oldies and let everyone else get ill” mindset was that even at small percentages the numbers of younger people who would need intensive care would overwhelm the NHS unless spread over a very long period.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    felix said:

    Seriously. At this point in time to be running threads of this type seems to me to be highly irresponsible. At best it seems to be an attempt to shaft Cummings who is supremely irrelevant to what everyone should be focussed on. Staggering.

    I don’t buy that.
    Given that the alleged quote is out there, discussing and putting it in some sort of context is entirely reasonable.

    And as kyf_100 points out, it’s not as though the hard choices government has been faced with haven’t been an active topic of discussion since the beginning of the pandemic.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    People with underlying health conditions including severe asthma and specific cancers are being urged to stay at home “at all times” to protect themselves against coronavirus.

    People who fall into the high-risk categories should avoid any face-to-face contact for at least 12 weeks, the government said.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    I suspect this has been leaked from well off senior civil servants who don't want their cosy status quo disrupted by Cummings.

    Is there any evidence that Boris wasn't following the advice of the CMO? I seem to remember him standing next to him when the "herd immunity" plan was announced.

    I don’t hold any particular brief for career civil servants, but given the shambles he left at Education Cummings should never have been allowed to work in a government position again.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Liverpool stewards are volunteering to help with crowd control and assisting the elderly with their shopping at supermarkets, the club’s chief executive has said.

    Over the past few days images have been shared of chaotic scenes at supermarkets as long queues form for groceries, while a number of branches have introduced restrictions to prevent panic buying during the ongoing coronavirus outbreak.

    Liverpool chief executive Peter Moore said his club’s stewards were on hand to help manage the situation.

    “Message to supermarket managers here on Merseyside. Our stadium stewards here LFC are offering their time and expertise in volunteering to help with crowd control, queue management, parking control, assisting the elderly and infirm taking their groceries to their cars, etc,” Moore wrote on Twitter.

    “They are truly the best in the business and would be delighted to help in whatever way you would deem appropriate (and safe) on your premises. Please DM me so that I can put you in contact. YNWA”

    It is the latest gesture from football clubs, a number of whom have already donated food, pledged help with food banks, or donated the use of facilities to healthcare services in recent days.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/mar/22/liverpool-fc-ceo-offers-club-stewards-assist-crowds-supermarkets-coronavirus

    Are these the same people who just helped with crowd control for the Madrid game? Because if you're elderly you really want to stay away fron those people. If possible stay away from Liverpool.
    That will be 14 days ago in a few days.
    As if timed for maximum infectiousness...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited March 2020

    Cummings is being scapegoated here. The focus on this article shouldn't be that one paragraph- the previous bit about there being a huge government U-turn when they realised that 100,000 deaths was going to be more like 250k or 500k is far more important.

    And your objection to the little **** (or *** if you prefer) being shafted is what, exactly?

    Many would say that his falling victim to a simplistic but factually dubious storyline is the very definition of karma.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    felix said:

    Seriously. At this point in time to be running threads of this type seems to me to be highly irresponsible. At best it seems to be an attempt to shaft Cummings who is supremely irrelevant to what everyone should be focussed on. Staggering.

    I think what is really irresponsible is the PM's Chief Adviser misunderstanding the Covid-19 and then selectively briefing friendly journalists.

    If he can share his misunderstandings with journalists then he is likely to be giving the PM incorrect advice, and I'm someone who has gone out of his way to largely praise Boris Johnson for his handling of the crisis.
    Then right now that should still be the focus of the site not engaging in this sort of pettiness now. You have zero evidence the government is following such advice wherever it may or may not be coming from.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    I think all blue checkmarks should be tweeting this...

    https://twitter.com/Samtrickett1/status/1241718298850537475?s=20
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    IanB2 said:

    Cummings is being scapegoated here. The focus on this article shouldn't be that one paragraph- the previous bit about there being a huge government U-turn when they realised that 100,000 deaths was going to be more like 250k or 500k is far more important.

    And your objection to the little **** (or *** if you prefer) being shafted is what, exactly?
    None at all, my problem is with that being used to distract from more important criticism of the government
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    DougSeal said:

    I don’t think it will destroy the Tory Party. The kryptonite that will destroy the Tory Party has yet to be found. But it might hasten Cummings (in my view inevitable anyway) departure.

    Most voters haven't heard of Cummings and even fewer care what he has to say about anything.

    The kryptonite that will destroy the Tory Party will be (if it occurs) systemic socio-economic collapse, brought on by an excessively lengthy and Draconian clampdown on the Plague. Hence the special emphasis on expanding testing capacity, recommissioning retired NHS staff (who will presumably be supplemented by vets and volunteers with rudimentary training if necessary,) and the production of masses and masses of ventilators. The more people they can afford to allow to get critically ill without causing the collapse of the healthcare system, the quicker they can let more people get back to work and the lower the likelihood of this recession escalating into something very much worse.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    Seriously. At this point in time to be running threads of this type seems to me to be highly irresponsible. At best it seems to be an attempt to shaft Cummings who is supremely irrelevant to what everyone should be focussed on. Staggering.

    I don’t buy that.
    Given that the alleged quote is out there, discussing and putting it in some sort of context is entirely reasonable.

    And as kyf_100 points out, it’s not as though the hard choices government has been faced with haven’t been an active topic of discussion since the beginning of the pandemic.
    It's fiddling while Rome burns and with a nasty underhand twist. All the real evidence says the government is following the scientific and medical advice. I for one wish them well at a terrifying time in our History. The rest of you can play your silly games.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    Seriously. At this point in time to be running threads of this type seems to me to be highly irresponsible. At best it seems to be an attempt to shaft Cummings who is supremely irrelevant to what everyone should be focussed on. Staggering.

    I don’t buy that.
    Given that the alleged quote is out there, discussing and putting it in some sort of context is entirely reasonable.

    And as kyf_100 points out, it’s not as though the hard choices government has been faced with haven’t been an active topic of discussion since the beginning of the pandemic.
    It's fiddling while Rome burns and with a nasty underhand twist. All the real evidence says the government is following the scientific and medical advice. I for one wish them well at a terrifying time in our History. The rest of you can play your silly games.
    Talking about fiddling why Rome burns...trending on twitter, Corbyn must stay...and no that isn't stay indoors and follow the official advice.
  • Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Net gain of seats at the first general election

    Cameron: +108

    Johnson: +48

    David Cameron did all the heavy lifting.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Andrew said:

    They should really make clear that's not a Cummings quote, but from someone else - and that someone else who clearly has an agenda.

    That's a fair point. The problem is that it seems eminently credible because of other things he's verifiably said - if say John Major or even Rees-Mogg was quoted as saying it, none of us would believe it for a second.

    Nipped out in the "over 70s hour" at Sainsbury this morning, and it was well-stocked. Friends in Broxtowe say the same of their branch. So apart from one or two items (paracetamol still seems scarce), maybe the "don'r panic buy" message has got through.
    Or they made a special effort to stock the shelves before letting the oldies (who should be indoors, not shopping) in through the doors.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Cameron’s net gain of seats was more than twice that of Johnson. And he wasn’t facing Corbyn.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604
    Today's data.
    If you can't interpret log scales, look away now.
    We are looking for signs of a reduced gradient (i.e. a slowing in the rate of growth)


  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Net gain of seats at the first general election

    Cameron: +108

    Johnson: +48

    David Cameron did all the heavy lifting.
    Yup - that's your agenda exposed for all to see. Pathetic.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited March 2020
    Good article on why German figures are lower. Higher testing, lots of asymptotic / very minor symptoms picked up, youth affected first and generally healthier regions of Germany, higher ICU capacity, lag in recording deaths in official figures and no postmortem testing for those that died, even those suspected of having COVID-19 but never got tested.

    The feeling being that when the dusts settles they aren't going to be that much better off than many other countries. In fact, it states German's are thought to be more unhealthy than the Italian (I was surprised to find out just how high the smoking rate was there).

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/22/germany-low-coronavirus-mortality-rate-puzzles-experts
  • felix said:

    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Net gain of seats at the first general election

    Cameron: +108

    Johnson: +48

    David Cameron did all the heavy lifting.
    Yup - that's your agenda exposed for all to see. Pathetic.
    Don't be dense, I'm the one who didn't raise the issue about majorities.

    If you don't think this isn't a story then I can't help you.

    Read my opening again

    'In the world of politics perceptions occasionally matter more than reality'

    This story is out there in the wild.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    On a more serious note if my maths is any good Spain today:

    Deaths up by 22%

    Confirmed cases up 13%

    We are told the next week or so are critical with the health service close to buckling under the strain. This is why I find threads like this so frustrating.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Pedantically, 80/12 ≠ 8
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,567
    DougSeal said:

    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Cameron’s net gain of seats was more than twice that of Johnson. And he wasn’t facing Corbyn.
    No he was facing a tired Labour party that had been in power for 13 years and was carrying the millstone of the Global Financial Crisis. He had also thrown away leads of up to 20 points. He should have won handsomely but ended up with a coalition.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    felix said:

    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Net gain of seats at the first general election

    Cameron: +108

    Johnson: +48

    David Cameron did all the heavy lifting.
    Yup - that's your agenda exposed for all to see. Pathetic.
    Don't be dense, I'm the one who didn't raise the issue about majorities.

    If you don't think this isn't a story then I can't help you.

    Read my opening again

    'In the world of politics perceptions occasionally matter more than reality'

    This story is out there in the wild.
    You use that phrase a lot, mostly when you want it to be the case.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    People with underlying health conditions including severe asthma and specific cancers are being urged to stay at home “at all times” to protect themselves against coronavirus.

    People who fall into the high-risk categories should avoid any face-to-face contact for at least 12 weeks, the government said.

    Said advice being virtually useless unless:

    (1) everybody who lives with said vulnerable persons is also instructed to do the same thing, which the authorities aren't doing (all they get is the parroting of the standard hygiene advice, which does next-to-no good if they're required to go out to work and to join the bunfight in the shops, bringing them into contact with a load of Plague vectors so that they just end up taking the disease home with them)
    AND
    (2) the most vulnerable people get absolute priority straight away (not in about six weeks' or three months' time) for home grocery deliveries, by whatever means can be found. There's absolutely no sign of this so, unless said persons are lucky enough to have friends or relatives close by who can do it for them, they or members of their household have to go out and join all the Plague vectors fighting over the last bag of pasta in the supermarket

    If the support isn't in place for people who are meant to avoid all contact, then giving the advice in the first place is completely pointless. The NHS might as well save itself the cost (both monetary and in terms of finite working time) of sending all those letters and text messages.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,676
    edited March 2020
    This will make the plebs take notice, shit got real for the Primani Princesses and Princes.

    Primark closes stores as UK high street shuts doors.

    Retailer also cancels all new orders from suppliers as demand shrinks.

    https://www.ft.com/content/06d8b780-6c31-11ea-89df-41bea055720b
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    edited March 2020
    felix said:

    On a more serious note if my maths is any good Spain today:

    Deaths up by 22%

    Confirmed cases up 13%

    We are told the next week or so are critical with the health service close to buckling under the strain. This is why I find threads like this so frustrating.

    If lockdown works, the rate should start dropping pretty dramatically over the next couple of days.

    If it doesn’t we’re all fucked anyway so it’s time to reopen the bars and party.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    felix said:

    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Net gain of seats at the first general election

    Cameron: +108

    Johnson: +48

    David Cameron did all the heavy lifting.
    Yup - that's your agenda exposed for all to see. Pathetic.
    You could call it an agenda, you could also call it a viewpoint, opinion, assessment, judgement, position, two cents' worth or different interpretation of the facts. Either way, that’s largely the point of a message board where politics is discussed.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited March 2020

    This will make the plebs take up notice, shit got real from the Primani Princesses and Princes.

    Primark closes stores as UK high street shuts doors.

    Retailer also cancels all new orders from suppliers as demand shrinks.

    https://www.ft.com/content/06d8b780-6c31-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

    If JD Sports and Sports Direct also follow suit. This is when the riots start.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    This will make the plebs take up notice, shit got real from the Primani Princesses and Princes.

    Primark closes stores as UK high street shuts doors.

    Retailer also cancels all new orders from suppliers as demand shrinks.

    https://www.ft.com/content/06d8b780-6c31-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

    The clothing sector is being stripped.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,878

    DougSeal said:

    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Cameron’s net gain of seats was more than twice that of Johnson. And he wasn’t facing Corbyn.
    No he was facing a tired Labour party that had been in power for 13 years and was carrying the millstone of the Global Financial Crisis. He had also thrown away leads of up to 20 points. He should have won handsomely but ended up with a coalition.
    He was also the one that convinced many like me that had normally voted conservative as the lesser of all evils to stop because they had lost their way and turned left
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    felix said:

    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Net gain of seats at the first general election

    Cameron: +108

    Johnson: +48

    David Cameron did all the heavy lifting.
    Yup - that's your agenda exposed for all to see. Pathetic.
    Don't be dense, I'm the one who didn't raise the issue about majorities.

    If you don't think this isn't a story then I can't help you.

    Read my opening again

    'In the world of politics perceptions occasionally matter more than reality'

    This story is out there in the wild.
    Yup definitely out there in the jungle. You are not wrong.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    The Dutch government is following Cummings' advice on herd immunity, (indirectly).
  • DAlexanderDAlexander Posts: 815
    lol at thinking Cameron failing to get a majority after the financial crash and 13 years of Labour is better than Boris getting a massive majority after a decade of Tory austerity.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    DougSeal said:

    felix said:

    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Net gain of seats at the first general election

    Cameron: +108

    Johnson: +48

    David Cameron did all the heavy lifting.
    Yup - that's your agenda exposed for all to see. Pathetic.
    You could call it an agenda, you could also call it a viewpoint, opinion, assessment, judgement, position, two cents' worth or different interpretation of the facts. Either way, that’s largely the point of a message board where politics is discussed.
    Of course in normal times .. but now to me at least it seems at best irrelevant and at worst irresponsible but that ma be what a week of lockdown with at least 3 more to go will do to you.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited March 2020
    felix said:

    On a more serious note if my maths is any good Spain today:
    Deaths up by 22%
    Confirmed cases up 13%

    If it's any help, you can quickly find these on wiki:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–20_coronavirus_pandemic

    Go to right-hand side, click country, scroll down a bit, there's a bar chart on the right with daily +cases/deaths and %s. Quite useful to have it to a standardised form, because sometimes timezones confuse things (you don't know if you're talking about 1.5 days worth vs a part day etc).

    Also good other data there like per country testing, if it's published.
  • If the government wants to do something really positive they need to nationalise the home delivery service.

    https://twitter.com/jack_sommers/status/1241723051181555712
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    This will make the plebs take up notice, shit got real from the Primani Princesses and Princes.

    Primark closes stores as UK high street shuts doors.

    Retailer also cancels all new orders from suppliers as demand shrinks.

    https://www.ft.com/content/06d8b780-6c31-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

    If JD Sports and Sports Direct also follow suit. This is when the riots start.
    We call all probably survive a few weeks without clothes shopping.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    ydoethur said:

    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Pedantically, 80/12 ≠ 8
    Excluding the Speaker, there were 330 Conservative MPs after the 2015 GE. Since the zero line for an official majority is 325, the calculation should be 330 - 325 = 5, then multiplying by 2 gives a majority of 10.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Andrew said:

    felix said:

    On a more serious note if my maths is any good Spain today:
    Deaths up by 22%
    Confirmed cases up 13%

    If it's any help, you can quickly find these on wiki:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–20_coronavirus_pandemic

    Go to right-hand side, click country, scroll down a bit, there's a bar chart on the right with daily +cases/deaths and %s. Also good other data like per country testing, if it's published.
    Wikipedia is rightly maligned but if you follow the links in the citations it does take you to some great primary sources
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
  • ABZABZ Posts: 441
    Nigelb said:
    That's potentially very important news.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    HYUFD said:
    My mantra for this year is kindness to everyone. She makes me struggle.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Why are European Influenza cases dropping like a stone in the last month?


  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    isam said:

    Why are European Influenza cases dropping like a stone in the last month?


    What do they do in March in a normal year?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    If the government wants to do something really positive they need to nationalise the home delivery service.

    https://twitter.com/jack_sommers/status/1241723051181555712

    Changing the software or rules or communication of new rules might be a quicker and more effective solution to what was clearly a bonkers situation.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Why are European Influenza cases dropping like a stone in the last month?


    What do they do in March in a normal year?
    That could be it!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    isam said:

    Why are European Influenza cases dropping like a stone in the last month?


    What do they do in March in a normal year?
    Also incubation and viral shedding periods for the flu are shorter than for this coronavirus, and it’s probably less contagious, so the effects of social distancing show up more quickly.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    My mate in Spain is saying one person per car now, and police checks for proof of where you’re going
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited March 2020
    Everyone has seen messages telling you we must “act today or people will die,” COVID-19 is basically just the flu, and/or that “flattening the curve is a deadly delusion.” These often have numbers, charts, citations, retroactively edited titles (“taksies backsies”), and data “science.”

    Unfortunately, all of the above are signs of DKE-19, a highly contagious illness threatening the response against COVID-19. We must act today to flatten the curve of armchair epidemiology, or we will all be in peril.

    https://medium.com/@noahhaber/flatten-the-curve-of-armchair-epidemiology-9aa8cf92d652

    :smiley:
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    What matters now is how the government responds from now on, and looking at the curves it seems we are at the same place Italy was at this time! Which to put it mildly is scary asf
    We need to be doing so much more, people have proven they are very selfish and won't do the right things unless forced to.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,567

    This will make the plebs take up notice, shit got real from the Primani Princesses and Princes.

    Primark closes stores as UK high street shuts doors.

    Retailer also cancels all new orders from suppliers as demand shrinks.

    https://www.ft.com/content/06d8b780-6c31-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

    If JD Sports and Sports Direct also follow suit. This is when the riots start.
    Genuine question. How much is loss of demand and how much is loss of supply given that practically everything these stores sell comes from the Far East?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited March 2020
    nunu2 said:

    What matters now is how the government responds from now on, and looking at the curves it seems we are at the same place Italy was at this time! Which to put it mildly is scary asf
    We need to be doing so much more, people have proven they are very selfish and won't do the right things unless forced to.

    They still haven't passed the emergency powers bill. They need to get that done Monday and then sort it out.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    If the government wants to do something really positive they need to nationalise the home delivery service.

    https://twitter.com/jack_sommers/status/1241723051181555712

    Placing Ocado and the supermarket home delivery services under the direction of the state would be a possible solution, but a mechanism would be needed to (1) list all the most important customers, in order of priority, up to the carrying capacity of the services; and then (2) give them access, whilst cancelling all the existing orders and locking all the other customers out.

    If those hurdles can be surmounted then the grocers should be able to supply those 1.5m very vulnerable people and every NHS and care home worker with room to spare.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    Why are European Influenza cases dropping like a stone in the last month?


    What do they do in March in a normal year?
    Also incubation and viral shedding periods for the flu are shorter than for this coronavirus, and it’s probably less contagious, so the effects of social distancing show up more quickly.
    Only goes up to the 10th of march. Simpler times back then.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119

    twitter.com/IngrahamAngle/status/1240967734319558656
    twitter.com/SamiZayn/status/1241016024490803208

    That sounds like most of the questions from the UK press....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    It's proof that a "whitehall official" is waging an internal war at a point they should be focused on keeping the country as safe as can be

    It’s not proof of anything.
    It’s a piece of evidence capable of varying interpretation. No doubt more will emerge in the fullness of time; until then, it’s pure speculation.

    If it is true, you can understand why someone would want to leak it.
    Actually, no, I can't.

    As soon as you start leaking internal advice from officials then you cramp their ability to express their views. Additionally the quote is deliberately designed to damage Cummings.
    If you think one of them, who possesses outsize influence, is a dangerous psychopath, then cramping the ability of officials to express their views is something of a secondary consideration.
    No. There are processes internally for that. If the PM wants to work with him then it is not the job of an official to try and undermine him. Especially not now.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453

    This will make the plebs take up notice, shit got real from the Primani Princesses and Princes.

    Primark closes stores as UK high street shuts doors.

    Retailer also cancels all new orders from suppliers as demand shrinks.

    https://www.ft.com/content/06d8b780-6c31-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

    If JD Sports and Sports Direct also follow suit. This is when the riots start.
    Primark only closed the stores after demand fell.
    Either way it is good news, and hopefully all the fast fashion retailers close their doors soon due to failing sales.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,567

    People with underlying health conditions including severe asthma and specific cancers are being urged to stay at home “at all times” to protect themselves against coronavirus.

    People who fall into the high-risk categories should avoid any face-to-face contact for at least 12 weeks, the government said.

    Said advice being virtually useless unless:

    (1) everybody who lives with said vulnerable persons is also instructed to do the same thing, which the authorities aren't doing (all they get is the parroting of the standard hygiene advice, which does next-to-no good if they're required to go out to work and to join the bunfight in the shops, bringing them into contact with a load of Plague vectors so that they just end up taking the disease home with them)
    AND
    (2) the most vulnerable people get absolute priority straight away (not in about six weeks' or three months' time) for home grocery deliveries, by whatever means can be found. There's absolutely no sign of this so, unless said persons are lucky enough to have friends or relatives close by who can do it for them, they or members of their household have to go out and join all the Plague vectors fighting over the last bag of pasta in the supermarket

    If the support isn't in place for people who are meant to avoid all contact, then giving the advice in the first place is completely pointless. The NHS might as well save itself the cost (both monetary and in terms of finite working time) of sending all those letters and text messages.
    Actually there is sign of the second one. Certainly Sainsburys have a preference system in place whereby you can register if you are over 70 or have a condition which puts you inside this group and they will give priority to those people in assigning slots. This has been in place for a week or so now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    It's proof that a "whitehall official" is waging an internal war at a point they should be focused on keeping the country as safe as can be

    It’s not proof of anything.
    It’s a piece of evidence capable of varying interpretation. No doubt more will emerge in the fullness of time; until then, it’s pure speculation.

    If it is true, you can understand why someone would want to leak it.
    Actually, no, I can't.

    As soon as you start leaking internal advice from officials then you cramp their ability to express their views. Additionally the quote is deliberately designed to damage Cummings.
    If you think one of them, who possesses outsize influence, is a dangerous psychopath, then cramping the ability of officials to express their views is something of a secondary consideration.
    No. There are processes internally for that. If the PM wants to work with him then it is not the job of an official to try and undermine him. Especially not now.
    Again, you are assuming it was an official.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    All employees to remain on full pay. That's the way to do it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rkrkrk said:

    Charles said:

    It's proof that a "whitehall official" is waging an internal war at a point they should be focused on keeping the country as safe as can be

    Where is a Whitehall official mentioned?

    My reading is that at a private engagement (i.e. not govt business) Cummings is alleged to have said this by several people present ["those present"].

    I think it's highly plausible that in his quest to be a misunderstood science genius, he would have said something that sounded a lot like that.
    There was a buzzfeed article from yesterday with a similar line of attack which quoted a "whitehall official" [I assume a SpAd]. I'm working on the basis that they are a coordinated attack.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited March 2020
    nunu2 said:

    All employees to remain on full pay. That's the way to do it.
    Everything I know about the Timpson family is really positive. Timpsons snr fostering 100s of kids, they treat their employees well even in normal times and genuinely believe in giving back to society.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453

    nunu2 said:

    What matters now is how the government responds from now on, and looking at the curves it seems we are at the same place Italy was at this time! Which to put it mildly is scary asf
    We need to be doing so much more, people have proven they are very selfish and won't do the right things unless forced to.

    They still haven't passed the emergency powers bill. They need to get that done Monday and then sort it out.
    What will the emergency powers bill allow them to do? Will it pass on monday?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    Seriously. At this point in time to be running threads of this type seems to me to be highly irresponsible. At best it seems to be an attempt to shaft Cummings who is supremely irrelevant to what everyone should be focussed on. Staggering.

    I don’t buy that.
    Given that the alleged quote is out there, discussing and putting it in some sort of context is entirely reasonable.

    And as kyf_100 points out, it’s not as though the hard choices government has been faced with haven’t been an active topic of discussion since the beginning of the pandemic.
    That's EXACTLY the problem.

    It's NOT a quote from Cummings.

    It's a summary of what he is alleged to have said. No doubt couched in inflammatory terms to serve an agenda.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    isam said:

    My mate in Spain is saying one person per car now, and police checks for proof of where you’re going

    Has been the case for a while now - I live in a very quiet coastal area which swells in the summer, but barely 30000 folk normally covering the villages and 4 or 5 very small towns. However, we have both soldiers and Guardia on the streets enforcing the rules. Very impressive if somewhat intimidating.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    Nigelb said:

    This will make the plebs take up notice, shit got real from the Primani Princesses and Princes.

    Primark closes stores as UK high street shuts doors.

    Retailer also cancels all new orders from suppliers as demand shrinks.

    https://www.ft.com/content/06d8b780-6c31-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

    If JD Sports and Sports Direct also follow suit. This is when the riots start.
    We call all probably survive a few weeks without clothes shopping.
    How about a 20% drop in GDP?

    Millions unemployed, receiving government handouts. The rest paying 90% of their salary in a super tax. People unable to pay mortgages, homes repossessed, people living in their cars, children without a roof over their head. Food rationing. Violent crime up. Civil unrest.

    Because that is where we will be in six months time if we don't get a handle on this.

    That starts to scare me more than the headline mortality rate for this thing.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Jesus Christ, don't you ever get tired of amplifying this nonsense? Yes, Boris and Cummings won a majority 8 times the size of Dave's. It's done, time to get over it.

    Net gain of seats at the first general election

    Cameron: +108

    Johnson: +48

    David Cameron did all the heavy lifting.
    Or Johnson made the breakthrough that Cameron was unable to
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805

    nunu2 said:

    All employees to remain on full pay. That's the way to do it.
    Everything I know about the Timpson family is really positive. Timpsons snr fostering 100s of kids, they treat their employees well even in normal times and genuinely believe in giving back to society.
    Plus employing ex-offenders.
This discussion has been closed.