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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » WH2020: The betting markets move against there being a brokere

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  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    A question on COVID-19 vs “normal” flu (which most people self misdiagnose).

    How much of the difference is likely related to one factor (vaccination of high percentage of at risk groups)? And how much is down to COVID-19 being (presumably) more dangerous for other reasons? Eg. Higher propensity to spread, higher (normalised ie. imagining their was no vaccine for flu) mortality?

    No idea. But the winter before last, flu deaths in the UK were running at five every day. I must have been on holiday because I don’t remember the wall to wall media coverage.
    In 1989 apparently 26,000 people died of flu in the UK. I cant it even recall it being in the news that year? I can clearly recall Hillsborough, Gorbachev, high inflation, Guildford four, Marchioness so think I was paying attention.
    Because it was largely people who were weakened or/and elderly. Flu hastened a death. But that death was coming soon and probably by whatever infected them.
    But that's no different to the people who are most likely to die from coronavirus. Elderly people with pre-existing conditions.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/which-groups-are-most-at-risk-from-the-coronavirus/
    As a fifty something male with hypertension, I stand around a 2% chance of dying of COVID19 if I get it. That is a lot higher than background risk.

    I dislike too the implication that seventy and eighty somethings with either diabetes or cardiovascular disease are on their last legs anyway. These are our parents and grandparents, our friends and family. They are contributing in a major way to our society and cultural life. I value them and want them to lead healthy and fulfilling lives.
    Agreed.
    And not just because I have money on Biden.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    A question on COVID-19 vs “normal” flu (which most people self misdiagnose).

    How much of the difference is likely related to one factor (vaccination of high percentage of at risk groups)? And how much is down to COVID-19 being (presumably) more dangerous for other reasons? Eg. Higher propensity to spread, higher (normalised ie. imagining their was no vaccine for flu) mortality?

    No idea. But the winter before last, flu deaths in the UK were running at five every day. I must have been on holiday because I don’t remember the wall to wall media coverage.
    In 1989 apparently 26,000 people died of flu in the UK. I cant it even recall it being in the news that year? I can clearly recall Hillsborough, Gorbachev, high inflation, Guildford four, Marchioness so think I was paying attention.
    Because it was largely people who were weakened or/and elderly. Flu hastened a death. But that death was coming soon and probably by whatever infected them.
    But that's no different to the people who are most likely to die from coronavirus. Elderly people with pre-existing conditions.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/which-groups-are-most-at-risk-from-the-coronavirus/
    As a fifty something male with hypertension, I stand around a 2% chance of dying of COVID19 if I get it. That is a lot higher than background risk.

    I dislike too the implication that seventy and eighty somethings with either diabetes or cardiovascular disease are on their last legs anyway. These are our parents and grandparents, our friends and family. They are contributing in a major way to our society and cultural life. I value them and want them to lead healthy and fulfilling lives.
    What about if they are Leave voters? :smiley:
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    IanB2 said:

    There are no pro-Biden voters.
    There are only anti-Sanders, anti-Bloomberg voters etc.

    He is a genuinely shit candidate, the worst from a major party since Mondale.

    I'll see your Mondale and raise you Mitt Romney
    Mitt was not shit.
    It’s just that anyone was gonna look rubbish against Obama.
    The trouble with the way politics has gone is that people who looked shit at the time look half decent viewed against the standard of those that followed.
    One of the problem with US politics (and, let’s face it, closer to home) is the widening chasm between the characteristics of a good candidate for election, and the characteristics of a good President. With added complications that to become President, candidates need to be good when pursuing the votes of completely different electorates.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    IanB2 said:

    There are no pro-Biden voters.
    There are only anti-Sanders, anti-Bloomberg voters etc.

    He is a genuinely shit candidate, the worst from a major party since Mondale.

    I'll see your Mondale and raise you Mitt Romney
    Mitt was not shit.
    It’s just that anyone was gonna look rubbish against Obama.
    The trouble with the way politics has gone is that people who looked shit at the time look half decent viewed against the standard of those that followed.
    The half-life of political standards is quite short.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited March 2020
    COVID. 19. Ta-loo-rye-ay!
    COVID. 19. Ta-loo-rye-ay!
    How you have grown!
    By power laws shown!
    Ohhhh, what I mean...
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    I stopped taking the tube last week.
    I note it is now hard to buy bulk dry goods from Ocado.
    My nanny is insisting on a hand sanitiser regime for visitors.
    I have mentally cancelled the ski trip.

    Such are the privations recorded in my journal of the plague year.

    Your published diaries will live through the generations.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    Sandpit said:

    On topic, I’ve been pointing out for weeks that the Betfair Dem Nom market has been very under-round, it got to 87% at one point, based on the back prices of layable candidates.

    Biden now being 1.19 has finally made the market exceed 100%.

    Still six layable candidates though, there’s 40 to lay Hillary Clinton if 2.5% return in 4 months is better than your bank account pays.

    Inexplicably, shes's available in the 27-34 range this morning.

    I can't actually lay her anymore as I've reached my Betfair Exchange exposure limit!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    I stopped taking the tube last week.
    I note it is now hard to buy bulk dry goods from Ocado.
    My nanny is insisting on a hand sanitiser regime for visitors.
    I have mentally cancelled the ski trip.

    Such are the privations recorded in my journal of the plague year.

    At the end of the day, if you hole yourself up (alone) at home for 2-3 months with supplies and never venture out (and receive no visitors) you absolutely won't get it.

    Not everyone has that option, of course.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,767

    R Wrong Daily blathering on R4 - won’t answer a straight question.

    She was the future once.

    Briefly.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,767
    Has Maine not been settled yet?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,841

    I stopped taking the tube last week.
    I note it is now hard to buy bulk dry goods from Ocado.
    My nanny is insisting on a hand sanitiser regime for visitors.
    I have mentally cancelled the ski trip.

    Such are the privations recorded in my journal of the plague year.

    At the end of the day, if you hole yourself up (alone) at home for 2-3 months with supplies and never venture out (and receive no visitors) you absolutely won't get it.

    Not everyone has that option, of course.
    What are the implications for your mental and physical health of doing so even if you have the choice? Probably worse 99% of the time.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    Bad news for panic merchants, South Korea’s new reported cases just 145 today.

    Was 400/500 a day, earlier this week.

    ROK and China show that the way to control this is to stamp on it hard with lockdowns, quarantine and mass testing.

    If we are efficient at this then we may well miss the lesson. With "only" hundreds of deaths, people will say "what was that fuss about?"

    If we are inefficient we well get the lesson delivered fairly brutally that "this is not just flu".
    A key indicator for me is that all the ministers who go on tv (inc Sturgeon) look absolutely shattered. They are working v hard behind the scenes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    If you compare this with previous novel disease outbreaks, the ability to trace how it spreads as it's happening is amazing:

    https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1235432204060131329

    All that the US lacks right now is someone to arrange a coordinated use of the assets available to them...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    I stopped taking the tube last week.
    I note it is now hard to buy bulk dry goods from Ocado.
    My nanny is insisting on a hand sanitiser regime for visitors.
    I have mentally cancelled the ski trip.

    Such are the privations recorded in my journal of the plague year.

    At the end of the day, if you hole yourself up (alone) at home for 2-3 months with supplies and never venture out (and receive no visitors) you absolutely won't get it.

    Not everyone has that option, of course.
    Ironically, one of the few PBers who could do that reasonably comfortably, is also one of the chief panic merchants.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    I stopped taking the tube last week.
    I note it is now hard to buy bulk dry goods from Ocado.
    My nanny is insisting on a hand sanitiser regime for visitors.
    I have mentally cancelled the ski trip.

    Such are the privations recorded in my journal of the plague year.

    At the end of the day, if you hole yourself up (alone) at home for 2-3 months with supplies and never venture out (and receive no visitors) you absolutely won't get it.

    Not everyone has that option, of course.
    What are the implications for your mental and physical health of doing so even if you have the choice? Probably worse 99% of the time.
    Well, better than solitary confinement or a short prison sentence.

    You have TV, phone, internet, you can work too, and go out in the garden whenever you want.

    If I was single and didn't need to travel for work I'd do it. I've had asthma and pneumonia before and have no desire to repeat the experience.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228

    I stopped taking the tube last week.
    I note it is now hard to buy bulk dry goods from Ocado.
    My nanny is insisting on a hand sanitiser regime for visitors.
    I have mentally cancelled the ski trip.

    Such are the privations recorded in my journal of the plague year.

    Have you buried the cheese, yet ?

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491
    In WW2, the average age of a combat coronavirus was 26.

    In Vietnam it was..
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    A question on COVID-19 vs “normal” flu (which most people self misdiagnose).

    How much of the difference is likely related to one factor (vaccination of high percentage of at risk groups)? And how much is down to COVID-19 being (presumably) more dangerous for other reasons? Eg. Higher propensity to spread, higher (normalised ie. imagining their was no vaccine for flu) mortality?

    No idea. But the winter before last, flu deaths in the UK were running at five every day. I must have been on holiday because I don’t remember the wall to wall media coverage.

    Presumably we’ll get the flu deaths as usual, the COVID-19 ones are extra. That’s the problem (I assume): this is on top of all the regular stuff, it’s fast-moving and we just don’t know enough about it.

    My guess is that as soon as Brits are dying daily, it will be plastered all over the pages even at levels still in the same ballpark as normal flu.
    The death rate for this is around 3.4% compared to flu's 0.1%.

    So 35x more deadly if you catch it.

    Those are hooky figures, though. It is too early to say.
    I think “wrong” is the word you’re looking for.
    I don’t buy these figures from WHO.
    Why are deaths in S Korea, Singapore etc so low?
    10 serious ill people - not a problem share them around local hospitals.
    100 seriously ill people - getting to be a problem.
    1000 seriously ill people - definitely starting to be a problem
    10000 seriously ill people - yep that's a problem.

    If people don't get infected you haven't got a problem but as the number of ill people rises you get to the point where you can't treat everyone. And that's when the fatality count starts creeping up again.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    A question on COVID-19 vs “normal” flu (which most people self misdiagnose).

    How much of the difference is likely related to one factor (vaccination of high percentage of at risk groups)? And how much is down to COVID-19 being (presumably) more dangerous for other reasons? Eg. Higher propensity to spread, higher (normalised ie. imagining their was no vaccine for flu) mortality?

    No idea. But the winter before last, flu deaths in the UK were running at five every day. I must have been on holiday because I don’t remember the wall to wall media coverage.
    In 1989 apparently 26,000 people died of flu in the UK. I cant it even recall it being in the news that year? I can clearly recall Hillsborough, Gorbachev, high inflation, Guildford four, Marchioness so think I was paying attention.
    Because it was largely people who were weakened or/and elderly. Flu hastened a death. But that death was coming soon and probably by whatever infected them.
    But that's no different to the people who are most likely to die from coronavirus. Elderly people with pre-existing conditions.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/which-groups-are-most-at-risk-from-the-coronavirus/
    As a fifty something male with hypertension, I stand around a 2% chance of dying of COVID19 if I get it. That is a lot higher than background risk.

    I dislike too the implication that seventy and eighty somethings with either diabetes or cardiovascular disease are on their last legs anyway. These are our parents and grandparents, our friends and family. They are contributing in a major way to our society and cultural life. I value them and want them to lead healthy and fulfilling lives.
    Thanks!
    Just off to a U3a Group; Photography.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Nigelb said:
    Covid-19
    Aw c’mon, quarantine!
    You came in on a plane
    From Wuhan, it’s insane.

    You in that dress,
    Eating bat soup I guess
    Verge on dirty,
    Oh Covid-19!

    (Fiddle break)
    Fiddle with what?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    I stopped taking the tube last week.
    I note it is now hard to buy bulk dry goods from Ocado.
    My nanny is insisting on a hand sanitiser regime for visitors.
    I have mentally cancelled the ski trip.

    Such are the privations recorded in my journal of the plague year.

    At the end of the day, if you hole yourself up (alone) at home for 2-3 months with supplies and never venture out (and receive no visitors) you absolutely won't get it.

    Not everyone has that option, of course.
    Ironically, one of the few PBers who could do that reasonably comfortably, is also one of the chief panic merchants.
    If he'd been in the French Army on the Maginot line in 1940 he'd have run back behind the lines all the way to Brest at the first sound of a bumble bee.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:
    Covid-19
    Aw c’mon, quarantine!
    You came in on a plane
    From Wuhan, it’s insane.

    You in that dress,
    Eating bat soup I guess
    Verge on dirty,
    Oh Covid-19!

    (Fiddle break)
    Fiddle with what?
    Not your hands and your face...
  • Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Bad news for panic merchants, South Korea’s new reported cases just 145 today.

    Was 400/500 a day, earlier this week.

    ROK and China show that the way to control this is to stamp on it hard with lockdowns, quarantine and mass testing.

    If we are efficient at this then we may well miss the lesson. With "only" hundreds of deaths, people will say "what was that fuss about?"

    If we are inefficient we well get the lesson delivered fairly brutally that "this is not just flu".
    A key indicator for me is that all the ministers who go on tv (inc Sturgeon) look absolutely shattered. They are working v hard behind the scenes.
    Emergency preparedness at a local level is something to behold. Of course once it reaches a certain point you become overwhelmed and it all falls done. But they are ready...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, I’ve been pointing out for weeks that the Betfair Dem Nom market has been very under-round, it got to 87% at one point, based on the back prices of layable candidates.

    Biden now being 1.19 has finally made the market exceed 100%.

    Still six layable candidates though, there’s 40 to lay Hillary Clinton if 2.5% return in 4 months is better than your bank account pays.

    Inexplicably, shes's available in the 27-34 range this morning.

    I can't actually lay her anymore as I've reached my Betfair Exchange exposure limit!
    May i ask what an exposure limit is? I thought you had to back any exposure with cash up front so if you hit your limit you could top up? Or do you mean a self imposed limit? Or is there a hard limit?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, I’ve been pointing out for weeks that the Betfair Dem Nom market has been very under-round, it got to 87% at one point, based on the back prices of layable candidates.

    Biden now being 1.19 has finally made the market exceed 100%.

    Still six layable candidates though, there’s 40 to lay Hillary Clinton if 2.5% return in 4 months is better than your bank account pays.

    Inexplicably, shes's available in the 27-34 range this morning.

    I can't actually lay her anymore as I've reached my Betfair Exchange exposure limit!
    May i ask what an exposure limit is? I thought you had to back any exposure with cash up front so if you hit your limit you could top up? Or do you mean a self imposed limit? Or is there a hard limit?
    Everyone has a default exposure limit (across all markets) of £5k, I think. That's in addition to your daily deposit limit, which you can set at any level you like (I haven't got one).

    You have to formally request an exposure limit increase from Betfair to up it, I think.

    This is probably a good idea.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,841

    I stopped taking the tube last week.
    I note it is now hard to buy bulk dry goods from Ocado.
    My nanny is insisting on a hand sanitiser regime for visitors.
    I have mentally cancelled the ski trip.

    Such are the privations recorded in my journal of the plague year.

    At the end of the day, if you hole yourself up (alone) at home for 2-3 months with supplies and never venture out (and receive no visitors) you absolutely won't get it.

    Not everyone has that option, of course.
    What are the implications for your mental and physical health of doing so even if you have the choice? Probably worse 99% of the time.
    Well, better than solitary confinement or a short prison sentence.

    You have TV, phone, internet, you can work too, and go out in the garden whenever you want.

    If I was single and didn't need to travel for work I'd do it. I've had asthma and pneumonia before and have no desire to repeat the experience.
    Everyone has to make their own choices but Id prefer to carry on as normally as possible whilst following govt guidelines. Two big reasons are there is zero guarantee that 2-3 months will stop you getting coronavirus, it may even be more prevalent in the autumn/next winter, and that getting it early may be better than getting it late.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    I stopped taking the tube last week.
    I note it is now hard to buy bulk dry goods from Ocado.
    My nanny is insisting on a hand sanitiser regime for visitors.
    I have mentally cancelled the ski trip.

    Such are the privations recorded in my journal of the plague year.

    At the end of the day, if you hole yourself up (alone) at home for 2-3 months with supplies and never venture out (and receive no visitors) you absolutely won't get it.

    Not everyone has that option, of course.
    Ironically, one of the few PBers who could do that reasonably comfortably, is also one of the chief panic merchants.
    Rubbish. He must be down to a bottle and a half of the previous 17 cases of wine he was hoarding. Perhaps that is what he was doing in and around the supermarkets of Essex yesterday - trying to find his favourite brand of Liebfraumilch.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    eek said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:
    Covid-19
    Aw c’mon, quarantine!
    You came in on a plane
    From Wuhan, it’s insane.

    You in that dress,
    Eating bat soup I guess
    Verge on dirty,
    Oh Covid-19!

    (Fiddle break)
    Fiddle with what?
    Not your hands and your face...
    As an exercise this morning I thought I would notice how many times I was inclined to touch my face apropos of nothing over a half hour period. The answer is a lot.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    TOPPING said:

    I stopped taking the tube last week.
    I note it is now hard to buy bulk dry goods from Ocado.
    My nanny is insisting on a hand sanitiser regime for visitors.
    I have mentally cancelled the ski trip.

    Such are the privations recorded in my journal of the plague year.

    At the end of the day, if you hole yourself up (alone) at home for 2-3 months with supplies and never venture out (and receive no visitors) you absolutely won't get it.

    Not everyone has that option, of course.
    Ironically, one of the few PBers who could do that reasonably comfortably, is also one of the chief panic merchants.
    Rubbish. He must be down to a bottle and a half of the previous 17 cases of wine he was hoarding. Perhaps that is what he was doing in and around the supermarkets of Essex yesterday - trying to find his favourite brand of Liebfraumilch.
    Last heard of surrounded by boxes of latex gloves avidly reading a book about the Black Death, in between googling for the worst stories on the virus.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Markets are starting to consider having another bad day.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    I stopped taking the tube last week.
    I note it is now hard to buy bulk dry goods from Ocado.
    My nanny is insisting on a hand sanitiser regime for visitors.
    I have mentally cancelled the ski trip.

    Such are the privations recorded in my journal of the plague year.

    At the end of the day, if you hole yourself up (alone) at home for 2-3 months with supplies and never venture out (and receive no visitors) you absolutely won't get it.

    Not everyone has that option, of course.
    Ironically, one of the few PBers who could do that reasonably comfortably, is also one of the chief panic merchants.
    If he'd been in the French Army on the Maginot line in 1940 he'd have run back behind the lines all the way to Brest at the first sound of a bumble bee.
    I think he would have been shot before that.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Dr Fox,

    Biden needs a younger, fitter running mate, and that would frighten Trump more. Step forward Amy... "

    My political maxim … pick the prettiest woman; they're all useless anyway so you may as well make them decorative.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,210
    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited March 2020
    Foxy said:

    Biden is not a great candidate, and I share the doubts about his mental fragility (though Trump's coherence has deteriorated a lot over the decade too).

    Sanders is however a worse candidate. Quite independent of his own health issues and self proclaimed socialism, I don't think Bernie has ever demonstrated much political skill at getting anything done. He is an effective rabble rouser, but little more. No way could Bernie get his plans through Congress and Senate.

    Biden needs a younger, fitter running mate, and that would frighten Trump more. Step forward Amy...

    Burlington was considered - and voted - one of the best-run places in America when he was Mayor, and he also got more amendments passed than any other congressman. He's no Corbyn, really. The question is whether he can translate that into his public image by ditching what is, for america, the politically toxic socialist label, and then whether he has the potential build a strong enough movement outside congress, while president, to move his plans on.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    One hears this a lot. The less harmful form needs to both evolve, and out-compete the more harmful out of existence. This doesn't always happen: smallpox and cowpox (dna not rna viruses, but the point stands) coexisted happily for millennia.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602
    edited March 2020
    "A fight over scarce toilet paper in Australia has ended with a man being tasered, local police said on Thursday.
    The officers were called to a store in the town of Tamworth in New South Wales, after he allegedly lashed out and attacked another customer and supermarket staff.
    When he was apprehended by police he attacked the officers who then tasered him."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-51747782
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    Some reassurance from the CMO:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/mar/05/chief-medical-officer-chris-whitty-questioned-by-mps-live-news
    Whitty says the WTO figure does not take account of people who only got the disease very midly.

    He says he has a “reasonably high degree of confidence” that the real mortality rate is 1%, or lower.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    A question on COVID-19 vs “normal” flu (which most people self misdiagnose).

    How much of the difference is likely related to one factor (vaccination of high percentage of at risk groups)? And how much is down to COVID-19 being (presumably) more dangerous for other reasons? Eg. Higher propensity to spread, higher (normalised ie. imagining their was no vaccine for flu) mortality?

    No idea. But the winter before last, flu deaths in the UK were running at five every day. I must have been on holiday because I don’t remember the wall to wall media coverage.
    In 1989 apparently 26,000 people died of flu in the UK. I cant it even recall it being in the news that year? I can clearly recall Hillsborough, Gorbachev, high inflation, Guildford four, Marchioness so think I was paying attention.
    Because it was largely people who were weakened or/and elderly. Flu hastened a death. But that death was coming soon and probably by whatever infected them.
    But that's no different to the people who are most likely to die from coronavirus. Elderly people with pre-existing conditions.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/which-groups-are-most-at-risk-from-the-coronavirus/
    As a fifty something male with hypertension, I stand around a 2% chance of dying of COVID19 if I get it. That is a lot higher than background risk.

    I dislike too the implication that seventy and eighty somethings with either diabetes or cardiovascular disease are on their last legs anyway. These are our parents and grandparents, our friends and family. They are contributing in a major way to our society and cultural life. I value them and want them to lead healthy and fulfilling lives.
    Well said.

    We need to realise there is a difference between considering an epidemic on the public health level and on the personal level.

    Looking at this from on a national/international level, with no intervention then a significant proportion of the population will be ill having a large impact on the economy. However the overal profile of those who die will mostly be economically unproductive people (i.e. retired) and so economic impact of the deaths will mainly be the ability of the health providers to to cope with lots of dying people in 3 to 6 months.

    On a personal level, it is still unlikely that *you* will get ill. *If* you get symptoms though it will not be be pleasant, you will remember it for years. If your friend, aunt, father or partner happens to be one of those who dies, then it will be devastating. The epidemic will not seem to you like it was just "pruning back the dead wood".

    Understanding that health works on these two levels is very important. Blatantly ignoring it is irresponsible, and I mean both scaremongering and downplaying the pandemic.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    Nigelb said:

    Some reassurance from the CMO:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/mar/05/chief-medical-officer-chris-whitty-questioned-by-mps-live-news
    Whitty says the WTO figure does not take account of people who only got the disease very midly.

    He says he has a “reasonably high degree of confidence” that the real mortality rate is 1%, or lower.

    The Iceberg model. Unlike for the Titanic, the iceberg in this instance is a good thing.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    I see the government is reviewing its plan to release information about the geographical scope of the contagion once a week only. Good. What a stupid idea that was.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,210
    Nigelb said:

    Some reassurance from the CMO:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/mar/05/chief-medical-officer-chris-whitty-questioned-by-mps-live-news
    Whitty says the WTO figure does not take account of people who only got the disease very midly.

    He says he has a “reasonably high degree of confidence” that the real mortality rate is 1%, or lower.

    "Astoundingly irresponsible"

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1235409660104015873
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006


    I think his medical condition will be ruthlessly & publicly exposed in the Presidential fight by someone who will have no scruples.

    You can just imagine Trump:

    "You know, I like Joe. Nice guy. He's been a great public servant for America. But he's lost it. (Doing the spinning finger, indicating Joe's lost his marbles.) He's so far gone, he can't even rememebr how crooked he was. We have to keep reminding him...."
    That type of attack may not be as much of a winner as you seem to think it will be. It's not the same as the "lying Ted" or "crooked Hilary" stuff, many will see it as a very low and mean way of attacking someone. Obviously the base will love it but he needs more than the base.

    It's not as though there are not strong doubts about Trump's mental state. "Clinically insane" was I think how YBarddCwsc described him.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,602

    I see the government is reviewing its plan to release information about the geographical scope of the contagion once a week only. Good. What a stupid idea that was.

    Why is it a stupid idea?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    IanB2 said:

    Markets are starting to consider having another bad day.

    For me it's the Dow that is most vulnerable to a significant negative correction over the next few weeks. So I am considering shorting it. Tell you if I do and at what level.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Nigelb said:

    Some reassurance from the CMO:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/mar/05/chief-medical-officer-chris-whitty-questioned-by-mps-live-news
    Whitty says the WTO figure does not take account of people who only got the disease very midly.

    He says he has a “reasonably high degree of confidence” that the real mortality rate is 1%, or lower.

    The Iceberg model. Unlike for the Titanic, the iceberg in this instance is a good thing.
    Yebbut (and this is a real yebbut point, but I don't see why it is not valid) he is getting his %age improvement by raising the denominator, not reducing the numerator. Per whole population, deaths remains the same but number of cases (= potential spreaders, symptomatic or not) rises. So in absolute and overall terms this is not particularly good news.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,210
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    Some reassurance from the CMO:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/mar/05/chief-medical-officer-chris-whitty-questioned-by-mps-live-news
    Whitty says the WTO figure does not take account of people who only got the disease very midly.

    He says he has a “reasonably high degree of confidence” that the real mortality rate is 1%, or lower.

    The Iceberg model. Unlike for the Titanic, the iceberg in this instance is a good thing.
    Yebbut (and this is a real yebbut point, but I don't see why it is not valid) he is getting his %age improvement by raising the denominator, not reducing the numerator. Per whole population, deaths remains the same but number of cases (= potential spreaders, symptomatic or not) rises. So in absolute and overall terms this is not particularly good news.
    It reduces the upper limit of deaths down the line.
  • I do not rate RLB but her interview just now on Sky confirms she is totally unsuited for 2020 politics and winning back the red wall

    If she becomes leader, labour will be over
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Some reassurance from the CMO:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/mar/05/chief-medical-officer-chris-whitty-questioned-by-mps-live-news
    Whitty says the WTO figure does not take account of people who only got the disease very midly.

    He says he has a “reasonably high degree of confidence” that the real mortality rate is 1%, or lower.

    "Astoundingly irresponsible"

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1235409660104015873
    Fair point. The comparison had occurred to me, too.

    The difference is that Trump has been saying many things which are astoundingly irresponsible ...

    https://twitter.com/Politidope/status/1235415582931066880
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    This is called regression to the mean.

    If you see someone who is 6 ft 2 inches it is very likely that the next person you see is shorter. That is just because you have seen a tall person, and by definition most people are not tall. It is however possible that the next person is 6ft4in. If you travel on a train today, you are almost certainly going to see someone who is 6ft4 or taller.

    All organisms mutate. As a virus reproduces quickly, new mutations are arriving and surviving all the time. At least one of the current strains of the new corona virus is bad, lets say equivalent to a 6'4" person. The next mutation is likely to only be a 5'9" on the virus-badness scale. But it could be a 6'5" virus. In the next few months it is likely that one of the mutations is both 6'5" and survives to cause an outbreak.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    Andy_JS said:

    I see the government is reviewing its plan to release information about the geographical scope of the contagion once a week only. Good. What a stupid idea that was.

    Why is it a stupid idea?
    Because if, say, Sussex had a shed load of cases, I'd probably decide not to go there if I could help it. If I went there, caught it, but was only told about the shed load of cases a week later I'd be properly peeved.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    eristdoof said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    This is called regression to the mean.

    If you see someone who is 6 ft 2 inches it is very likely that the next person you see is shorter. That is just because you have seen a tall person, and by definition most people are not tall. It is however possible that the next person is 6ft4in. If you travel on a train today, you are almost certainly going to see someone who is 6ft4 or taller.

    All organisms mutate. As a virus reproduces quickly, new mutations are arriving and surviving all the time. At least one of the current strains of the new corona virus is bad, lets say equivalent to a 6'4" person. The next mutation is likely to only be a 5'9" on the virus-badness scale. But it could be a 6'5" virus. In the next few months it is likely that one of the mutations is both 6'5" and survives to cause an outbreak.
    You're skipping a few things there. Like cross-immunity, and natural selection.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    edited March 2020
    This is a bit presumptuous, for example in Maine and Massachusetts Sanders and Warren combined have won more pledged delegates now than Biden and Bloomberg combined despite the fact Biden won the popular vote there.

    If Biden has not won a majority of delegates outright by the convention, a Sanders-Warren ticket is possible
  • eristdoof said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    This is called regression to the mean.

    If you see someone who is 6 ft 2 inches it is very likely that the next person you see is shorter. That is just because you have seen a tall person, and by definition most people are not tall. It is however possible that the next person is 6ft4in. If you travel on a train today, you are almost certainly going to see someone who is 6ft4 or taller.

    All organisms mutate. As a virus reproduces quickly, new mutations are arriving and surviving all the time. At least one of the current strains of the new corona virus is bad, lets say equivalent to a 6'4" person. The next mutation is likely to only be a 5'9" on the virus-badness scale. But it could be a 6'5" virus. In the next few months it is likely that one of the mutations is both 6'5" and survives to cause an outbreak.
    Perhaps natural selection also plays a part? Viruses that kill their hosts won't survive so well, and so will tend to be replaced by those that don't. So there will be a natural tendency for viruses to become less lethal over time as the less lethal variants displace the more deadly ones. No idea if this is a significant influence though. Presumably variants that make people cough and sneeze more are also at an advantage when it comes to spreading themselves!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    Markets are starting to consider having another bad day.

    For me it's the Dow that is most vulnerable to a significant negative correction over the next few weeks. So I am considering shorting it. Tell you if I do and at what level.
    Biden's in the price and there isn't much more the central bankers can do or say in the short term. So it is hard to see it going higher from here.

    The biggest risk to a shorting strategy is the arrival (or the sniff of a rumour) of the medical cavalry.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    Some reassurance from the CMO:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/mar/05/chief-medical-officer-chris-whitty-questioned-by-mps-live-news
    Whitty says the WTO figure does not take account of people who only got the disease very midly.

    He says he has a “reasonably high degree of confidence” that the real mortality rate is 1%, or lower.

    The Iceberg model. Unlike for the Titanic, the iceberg in this instance is a good thing.
    Yebbut (and this is a real yebbut point, but I don't see why it is not valid) he is getting his %age improvement by raising the denominator, not reducing the numerator. Per whole population, deaths remains the same but number of cases (= potential spreaders, symptomatic or not) rises. So in absolute and overall terms this is not particularly good news.
    It reduces the upper limit of deaths down the line.
    It theoretically increases it and practically does not alter it. If you are saying 1% of 340 people will die, that's 340 potential victims; if 3.4% of 100 will die, you can't have more than 100 deaths. It never reduces it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,210

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, I’ve been pointing out for weeks that the Betfair Dem Nom market has been very under-round, it got to 87% at one point, based on the back prices of layable candidates.

    Biden now being 1.19 has finally made the market exceed 100%.

    Still six layable candidates though, there’s 40 to lay Hillary Clinton if 2.5% return in 4 months is better than your bank account pays.

    Inexplicably, shes's available in the 27-34 range this morning.

    I can't actually lay her anymore as I've reached my Betfair Exchange exposure limit!
    Direct message them on twitter, you can't call them any more.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Bad news for panic merchants, South Korea’s new reported cases just 145 today.

    Was 400/500 a day, earlier this week.

    ROK and China show that the way to control this is to stamp on it hard with lockdowns, quarantine and mass testing.

    If we are efficient at this then we may well miss the lesson. With "only" hundreds of deaths, people will say "what was that fuss about?"

    If we are inefficient we well get the lesson delivered fairly brutally that "this is not just flu".
    A key indicator for me is that all the ministers who go on tv (inc Sturgeon) look absolutely shattered. They are working v hard behind the scenes.
    No doubt, although Ms Sturgeon may have other things on her mind.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Andy_JS said:

    I see the government is reviewing its plan to release information about the geographical scope of the contagion once a week only. Good. What a stupid idea that was.

    Why is it a stupid idea?
    Because if, say, Sussex had a shed load of cases, I'd probably decide not to go there if I could help it. If I went there, caught it, but was only told about the shed load of cases a week later I'd be properly peeved.
    So which counties are on your daily “avoid” list?

    At least, unlike the US we are publishing the number of tests conducted.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    Some reassurance from the CMO:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/mar/05/chief-medical-officer-chris-whitty-questioned-by-mps-live-news
    Whitty says the WTO figure does not take account of people who only got the disease very midly.

    He says he has a “reasonably high degree of confidence” that the real mortality rate is 1%, or lower.

    The Iceberg model. Unlike for the Titanic, the iceberg in this instance is a good thing.
    Yebbut (and this is a real yebbut point, but I don't see why it is not valid) he is getting his %age improvement by raising the denominator, not reducing the numerator. Per whole population, deaths remains the same but number of cases (= potential spreaders, symptomatic or not) rises. So in absolute and overall terms this is not particularly good news.
    It reduces the upper limit of deaths down the line.
    It theoretically increases it and practically does not alter it. If you are saying 1% of 340 people will die, that's 340 potential victims; if 3.4% of 100 will die, you can't have more than 100 deaths. It never reduces it.
    Everyone who has had it as a mild or asymptomatic case is immune, and can therefore be deducted from the populations both of the uninfected and the possible deaths. Any percentage you are using to deduce the number of potential deaths is thereafter being multiplied against a reduced base.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    eristdoof said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    This is called regression to the mean.

    If you see someone who is 6 ft 2 inches it is very likely that the next person you see is shorter. That is just because you have seen a tall person, and by definition most people are not tall. It is however possible that the next person is 6ft4in. If you travel on a train today, you are almost certainly going to see someone who is 6ft4 or taller.

    All organisms mutate. As a virus reproduces quickly, new mutations are arriving and surviving all the time. At least one of the current strains of the new corona virus is bad, lets say equivalent to a 6'4" person. The next mutation is likely to only be a 5'9" on the virus-badness scale. But it could be a 6'5" virus. In the next few months it is likely that one of the mutations is both 6'5" and survives to cause an outbreak.
    Perhaps natural selection also plays a part? Viruses that kill their hosts won't survive so well, and so will tend to be replaced by those that don't. So there will be a natural tendency for viruses to become less lethal over time as the less lethal variants displace the more deadly ones. No idea if this is a significant influence though. Presumably variants that make people cough and sneeze more are also at an advantage when it comes to spreading themselves!
    Although the "kill the host" is the most vivid natural selection effect, I suspect the greater one is that a mild illness encourages people to keep active and therefore spread it. It's why we've all had colds more often than flu.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Surely as the choice becomes binary (Warren notwithstanding) the prospects of a brokered convention are wiped out?

    And is that a first?

    If Biden and Sanders split the remaining delegates in then neither has enough to win on the first round I think.
    But they are not going to split them equally. Health scares/total incoherence permitting Biden is going to win far more, possibly 2/3. As we saw last time out Sanders has his adherents who will hang in there with him but there are fewer than there were in 2016 and he has the Warren problem too.

    Like poor Buttigieg in Iowa the utter chaos in California risks taking the momentum out of Bernie's biggest win and preventing him from having a popular vote lead until it is too late. Yet another State whose voting is not fit for purpose.
    Sanders has won most delegates in California, for him that is all that matters
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    IanB2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    Some reassurance from the CMO:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/mar/05/chief-medical-officer-chris-whitty-questioned-by-mps-live-news
    Whitty says the WTO figure does not take account of people who only got the disease very midly.

    He says he has a “reasonably high degree of confidence” that the real mortality rate is 1%, or lower.

    The Iceberg model. Unlike for the Titanic, the iceberg in this instance is a good thing.
    Yebbut (and this is a real yebbut point, but I don't see why it is not valid) he is getting his %age improvement by raising the denominator, not reducing the numerator. Per whole population, deaths remains the same but number of cases (= potential spreaders, symptomatic or not) rises. So in absolute and overall terms this is not particularly good news.
    It reduces the upper limit of deaths down the line.
    It theoretically increases it and practically does not alter it. If you are saying 1% of 340 people will die, that's 340 potential victims; if 3.4% of 100 will die, you can't have more than 100 deaths. It never reduces it.
    Everyone who has had it as a mild or asymptomatic case is immune, and can therefore be deducted from the populations both of the uninfected and the possible deaths. Any percentage you are using to deduce the number of potential deaths is thereafter being multiplied against a reduced base.
    Nobody knows whether that is true about immunity.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    eristdoof said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    This is called regression to the mean.

    If you see someone who is 6 ft 2 inches it is very likely that the next person you see is shorter. That is just because you have seen a tall person, and by definition most people are not tall. It is however possible that the next person is 6ft4in. If you travel on a train today, you are almost certainly going to see someone who is 6ft4 or taller.

    All organisms mutate. As a virus reproduces quickly, new mutations are arriving and surviving all the time. At least one of the current strains of the new corona virus is bad, lets say equivalent to a 6'4" person. The next mutation is likely to only be a 5'9" on the virus-badness scale. But it could be a 6'5" virus. In the next few months it is likely that one of the mutations is both 6'5" and survives to cause an outbreak.
    Perhaps natural selection also plays a part? Viruses that kill their hosts won't survive so well, and so will tend to be replaced by those that don't. So there will be a natural tendency for viruses to become less lethal over time as the less lethal variants displace the more deadly ones. No idea if this is a significant influence though. Presumably variants that make people cough and sneeze more are also at an advantage when it comes to spreading themselves!
    Less immediately lethal. The “ideal” (from a virus POV) virus is one that is asymptomatic for a long time while still being infectious - like HIV.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    IshmaelZ said:

    IanB2 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Pulpstar said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    Some reassurance from the CMO:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/mar/05/chief-medical-officer-chris-whitty-questioned-by-mps-live-news
    Whitty says the WTO figure does not take account of people who only got the disease very midly.

    He says he has a “reasonably high degree of confidence” that the real mortality rate is 1%, or lower.

    The Iceberg model. Unlike for the Titanic, the iceberg in this instance is a good thing.
    Yebbut (and this is a real yebbut point, but I don't see why it is not valid) he is getting his %age improvement by raising the denominator, not reducing the numerator. Per whole population, deaths remains the same but number of cases (= potential spreaders, symptomatic or not) rises. So in absolute and overall terms this is not particularly good news.
    It reduces the upper limit of deaths down the line.
    It theoretically increases it and practically does not alter it. If you are saying 1% of 340 people will die, that's 340 potential victims; if 3.4% of 100 will die, you can't have more than 100 deaths. It never reduces it.
    Everyone who has had it as a mild or asymptomatic case is immune, and can therefore be deducted from the populations both of the uninfected and the possible deaths. Any percentage you are using to deduce the number of potential deaths is thereafter being multiplied against a reduced base.
    Nobody knows whether that is true about immunity.
    Not for sure, and it depends on the mutation. But we know enough about corona viruses to believe that it is highly likely.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited March 2020

    eristdoof said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    This is called regression to the mean.

    If you see someone who is 6 ft 2 inches it is very likely that the next person you see is shorter. That is just because you have seen a tall person, and by definition most people are not tall. It is however possible that the next person is 6ft4in. If you travel on a train today, you are almost certainly going to see someone who is 6ft4 or taller.

    All organisms mutate. As a virus reproduces quickly, new mutations are arriving and surviving all the time. At least one of the current strains of the new corona virus is bad, lets say equivalent to a 6'4" person. The next mutation is likely to only be a 5'9" on the virus-badness scale. But it could be a 6'5" virus. In the next few months it is likely that one of the mutations is both 6'5" and survives to cause an outbreak.
    Perhaps natural selection also plays a part? Viruses that kill their hosts won't survive so well, and so will tend to be replaced by those that don't. So there will be a natural tendency for viruses to become less lethal over time as the less lethal variants displace the more deadly ones. No idea if this is a significant influence though. Presumably variants that make people cough and sneeze more are also at an advantage when it comes to spreading themselves!
    Smallpox. 30% CFR, in business since 10,000 BC.

    Edit to add: despite competition from less lethal mutations like cowpox.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    I stopped taking the tube last week.
    I note it is now hard to buy bulk dry goods from Ocado.
    My nanny is insisting on a hand sanitiser regime for visitors.
    I have mentally cancelled the ski trip.

    Such are the privations recorded in my journal of the plague year.

    At the end of the day, if you hole yourself up (alone) at home for 2-3 months with supplies and never venture out (and receive no visitors) you absolutely won't get it.

    Not everyone has that option, of course.
    What are the implications for your mental and physical health of doing so even if you have the choice? Probably worse 99% of the time.
    Well, better than solitary confinement or a short prison sentence.

    You have TV, phone, internet, you can work too, and go out in the garden whenever you want.

    If I was single and didn't need to travel for work I'd do it. I've had asthma and pneumonia before and have no desire to repeat the experience.
    Everyone has to make their own choices but Id prefer to carry on as normally as possible whilst following govt guidelines. Two big reasons are there is zero guarantee that 2-3 months will stop you getting coronavirus, it may even be more prevalent in the autumn/next winter, and that getting it early may be better than getting it late.
    Whilst that's true there's nothing to stop you repeating the exercise by then, if you're in a position to do so.

    And, hopefully by then, a vaccine won't be too far away.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    A question on COVID-19 vs “normal” flu (which most people self misdiagnose).

    How much of the difference is likely related to one factor (vaccination of high percentage of at risk groups)? And how much is down to COVID-19 being (presumably) more dangerous for other reasons? Eg. Higher propensity to spread, higher (normalised ie. imagining their was no vaccine for flu) mortality?

    No idea. But the winter before last, flu deaths in the UK were running at five every day. I must have been on holiday because I don’t remember the wall to wall media coverage.
    In 1989 apparently 26,000 people died of flu in the UK. I cant it even recall it being in the news that year? I can clearly recall Hillsborough, Gorbachev, high inflation, Guildford four, Marchioness so think I was paying attention.
    Because it was largely people who were weakened or/and elderly. Flu hastened a death. But that death was coming soon and probably by whatever infected them.
    But that's no different to the people who are most likely to die from coronavirus. Elderly people with pre-existing conditions.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/which-groups-are-most-at-risk-from-the-coronavirus/
    As a fifty something male with hypertension, I stand around a 2% chance of dying of COVID19 if I get it. That is a lot higher than background risk.

    I dislike too the implication that seventy and eighty somethings with either diabetes or cardiovascular disease are on their last legs anyway. These are our parents and grandparents, our friends and family. They are contributing in a major way to our society and cultural life. I value them and want them to lead healthy and fulfilling lives.
    Your post is both comforting and unnerving at the same time to a 76 year old with hypertension and diabetes.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680

    Andy_JS said:

    I see the government is reviewing its plan to release information about the geographical scope of the contagion once a week only. Good. What a stupid idea that was.

    Why is it a stupid idea?
    Because if, say, Sussex had a shed load of cases, I'd probably decide not to go there if I could help it. If I went there, caught it, but was only told about the shed load of cases a week later I'd be properly peeved.
    So which counties are on your daily “avoid” list?

    At least, unlike the US we are publishing the number of tests conducted.
    None at the moment. But if there was a geographical cluster then surely we'd want people to know about it, so they could make an informed judgement about whether to avoid the area. Or are you happy for this information to be held back for a week?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Also works with EU flag. Brand new preferred

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1235166654046384130?s=21
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    IshmaelZ said:

    eristdoof said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    This is called regression to the mean.

    If you see someone who is 6 ft 2 inches it is very likely that the next person you see is shorter. That is just because you have seen a tall person, and by definition most people are not tall. It is however possible that the next person is 6ft4in. If you travel on a train today, you are almost certainly going to see someone who is 6ft4 or taller.

    All organisms mutate. As a virus reproduces quickly, new mutations are arriving and surviving all the time. At least one of the current strains of the new corona virus is bad, lets say equivalent to a 6'4" person. The next mutation is likely to only be a 5'9" on the virus-badness scale. But it could be a 6'5" virus. In the next few months it is likely that one of the mutations is both 6'5" and survives to cause an outbreak.
    Perhaps natural selection also plays a part? Viruses that kill their hosts won't survive so well, and so will tend to be replaced by those that don't. So there will be a natural tendency for viruses to become less lethal over time as the less lethal variants displace the more deadly ones. No idea if this is a significant influence though. Presumably variants that make people cough and sneeze more are also at an advantage when it comes to spreading themselves!
    Smallpox. 30% CFR, in business since 10,000 BC.
    for those who will have to google it. CFR means (after googling it myself) case fatality rate)
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    edited March 2020
    does anyone know where COVID 19 started (I mean the source not the location)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    Also works with EU flag. Brand new preferred

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1235166654046384130?s=21

    Looks a bit BNP though.
  • does anyone know where COVID 19 started (I mean the source not the location)

    Wasn't it supposed to be from bats ?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Andy_JS said:

    I see the government is reviewing its plan to release information about the geographical scope of the contagion once a week only. Good. What a stupid idea that was.

    Why is it a stupid idea?
    Because if, say, Sussex had a shed load of cases, I'd probably decide not to go there if I could help it. If I went there, caught it, but was only told about the shed load of cases a week later I'd be properly peeved.
    So which counties are on your daily “avoid” list?

    At least, unlike the US we are publishing the number of tests conducted.
    None at the moment. But if there was a geographical cluster then surely we'd want people to know about it, so they could make an informed judgement about whether to avoid the area. Or are you happy for this information to be held back for a week?
    If there’s a cluster those patients will have been identified and isolated- it’s the unidentified clusters which present problems- if they think their time is better spent doing something else I’d go with them.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Also works with EU flag. Brand new preferred

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1235166654046384130?s=21

    Looks a bit BNP though.
    And flying the flag upside down is a distress signal...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695

    eristdoof said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    This is called regression to the mean.

    If you see someone who is 6 ft 2 inches it is very likely that the next person you see is shorter. That is just because you have seen a tall person, and by definition most people are not tall. It is however possible that the next person is 6ft4in. If you travel on a train today, you are almost certainly going to see someone who is 6ft4 or taller.

    All organisms mutate. As a virus reproduces quickly, new mutations are arriving and surviving all the time. At least one of the current strains of the new corona virus is bad, lets say equivalent to a 6'4" person. The next mutation is likely to only be a 5'9" on the virus-badness scale. But it could be a 6'5" virus. In the next few months it is likely that one of the mutations is both 6'5" and survives to cause an outbreak.
    Perhaps natural selection also plays a part? Viruses that kill their hosts won't survive so well, and so will tend to be replaced by those that don't. So there will be a natural tendency for viruses to become less lethal over time as the less lethal variants displace the more deadly ones. No idea if this is a significant influence though. Presumably variants that make people cough and sneeze more are also at an advantage when it comes to spreading themselves!
    Less immediately lethal. The “ideal” (from a virus POV) virus is one that is asymptomatic for a long time while still being infectious - like HIV.
    Albeit if the virus had an eventual 100% CFR there would soon be no hosts to infect.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    does anyone know where COVID 19 started (I mean the source not the location)

    Wasn't it supposed to be from bats ?
    Latest I read was Bats>Pangolins> Humans
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,210
    California timeline :.

    Counties will wait until Friday to receive all the mail-in ballots.

    “We won’t even know how many more outstanding ballots there will be to process until ... Friday (March 6),”

    Before counties submit the final results, they must perform a post-election audit. One percent of precincts are chosen randomly and then counted by hand to ensure the accuracy of the voting machine’s count.

    A slow stream of results will flow in during the days and weeks after the election, as counties have until April 3 to report their final results to Padilla’s office.

    Padilla will then certify the final results by April 10.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,779

    eristdoof said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    This is called regression to the mean.

    If you see someone who is 6 ft 2 inches it is very likely that the next person you see is shorter. That is just because you have seen a tall person, and by definition most people are not tall. It is however possible that the next person is 6ft4in. If you travel on a train today, you are almost certainly going to see someone who is 6ft4 or taller.

    All organisms mutate. As a virus reproduces quickly, new mutations are arriving and surviving all the time. At least one of the current strains of the new corona virus is bad, lets say equivalent to a 6'4" person. The next mutation is likely to only be a 5'9" on the virus-badness scale. But it could be a 6'5" virus. In the next few months it is likely that one of the mutations is both 6'5" and survives to cause an outbreak.
    Perhaps natural selection also plays a part? Viruses that kill their hosts won't survive so well, and so will tend to be replaced by those that don't. So there will be a natural tendency for viruses to become less lethal over time as the less lethal variants displace the more deadly ones. No idea if this is a significant influence though. Presumably variants that make people cough and sneeze more are also at an advantage when it comes to spreading themselves!
    Less immediately lethal. The “ideal” (from a virus POV) virus is one that is asymptomatic for a long time while still being infectious - like HIV.
    Albeit if the virus had an eventual 100% CFR there would soon be no hosts to infect.
    Not if the incubation rate was sufficiently long for the host to reproduce and provide new hosts.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    eristdoof said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    This is called regression to the mean.

    If you see someone who is 6 ft 2 inches it is very likely that the next person you see is shorter. That is just because you have seen a tall person, and by definition most people are not tall. It is however possible that the next person is 6ft4in. If you travel on a train today, you are almost certainly going to see someone who is 6ft4 or taller.

    All organisms mutate. As a virus reproduces quickly, new mutations are arriving and surviving all the time. At least one of the current strains of the new corona virus is bad, lets say equivalent to a 6'4" person. The next mutation is likely to only be a 5'9" on the virus-badness scale. But it could be a 6'5" virus. In the next few months it is likely that one of the mutations is both 6'5" and survives to cause an outbreak.
    Perhaps natural selection also plays a part? Viruses that kill their hosts won't survive so well, and so will tend to be replaced by those that don't. So there will be a natural tendency for viruses to become less lethal over time as the less lethal variants displace the more deadly ones. No idea if this is a significant influence though. Presumably variants that make people cough and sneeze more are also at an advantage when it comes to spreading themselves!
    Yes that is also an effect. A different effect. However, from the viewpoint of a virus species, killing off 1 percent of hosts while easily jumping from host to host, is a great trade off. Ebola is different. Ebola kills off too many hosts before they can pass it on, and humans can contain it with some effort. So an Ebloa variant which has a lower death rate would be more sucessful.

    If I were the virus president of the Corona Republic I would be urging my subjects to avoid forcing those humans into lock-down mode, Both by flying under the radar (only mild symptoms) and by rapid colonisation. So far things seem to be progressing quite nicely!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,841

    Andy_JS said:

    I see the government is reviewing its plan to release information about the geographical scope of the contagion once a week only. Good. What a stupid idea that was.

    Why is it a stupid idea?
    Because if, say, Sussex had a shed load of cases, I'd probably decide not to go there if I could help it. If I went there, caught it, but was only told about the shed load of cases a week later I'd be properly peeved.
    So which counties are on your daily “avoid” list?

    At least, unlike the US we are publishing the number of tests conducted.
    None at the moment. But if there was a geographical cluster then surely we'd want people to know about it, so they could make an informed judgement about whether to avoid the area. Or are you happy for this information to be held back for a week?
    If there’s a cluster those patients will have been identified and isolated- it’s the unidentified clusters which present problems- if they think their time is better spent doing something else I’d go with them.
    The reality is this situation is ridiculously complex. No-one knows the best actions, including the govt but they have the most resources and most up to date info and projections.

    Given that, as long as the govt is making reasonable suggestions, it is fairly pointless individuals trying to second guess that advice, even if it is natural and tempting to do so.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    And Delta/Virgin want the Heathrow slots...

    https://twitter.com/Frances_Coppola/status/1235509074185326598?s=20
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316

    does anyone know where COVID 19 started (I mean the source not the location)

    Believed to come from an animal source in a food market in Hubei province. Originally most likely a bat source, but might have been transmitted to the first human carrier via a pangolin apparently.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065

    does anyone know where COVID 19 started (I mean the source not the location)

    Wasn't it supposed to be from bats ?
    Elvis.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    eristdoof said:

    eristdoof said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    This is called regression to the mean.

    If you see someone who is 6 ft 2 inches it is very likely that the next person you see is shorter. That is just because you have seen a tall person, and by definition most people are not tall. It is however possible that the next person is 6ft4in. If you travel on a train today, you are almost certainly going to see someone who is 6ft4 or taller.

    All organisms mutate. As a virus reproduces quickly, new mutations are arriving and surviving all the time. At least one of the current strains of the new corona virus is bad, lets say equivalent to a 6'4" person. The next mutation is likely to only be a 5'9" on the virus-badness scale. But it could be a 6'5" virus. In the next few months it is likely that one of the mutations is both 6'5" and survives to cause an outbreak.
    Perhaps natural selection also plays a part? Viruses that kill their hosts won't survive so well, and so will tend to be replaced by those that don't. So there will be a natural tendency for viruses to become less lethal over time as the less lethal variants displace the more deadly ones. No idea if this is a significant influence though. Presumably variants that make people cough and sneeze more are also at an advantage when it comes to spreading themselves!
    Yes that is also an effect. A different effect. However, from the viewpoint of a virus species, killing off 1 percent of hosts while easily jumping from host to host, is a great trade off. Ebola is different. Ebola kills off too many hosts before they can pass it on, and humans can contain it with some effort. So an Ebloa variant which has a lower death rate would be more sucessful.

    If I were the virus president of the Corona Republic I would be urging my subjects to avoid forcing those humans into lock-down mode, Both by flying under the radar (only mild symptoms) and by rapid colonisation. So far things seem to be progressing quite nicely!
    You'd also be funding a lot of twitterbot farms to put the "nothing to worry about" case as widely as possible.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230

    Less immediately lethal. The “ideal” (from a virus POV) virus is one that is asymptomatic for a long time while still being infectious - like HIV.

    Giving this some thought (reluctantly) I would postulate that if a virus has serious ambitions to wipe out most or all of humanity it needs the following key attributes -

    Very contagious AND infectious.
    No symptoms for 28 days.
    On the 29th day you drop dead.

    Once that comes along we will need to develop a vaccine very urgently indeed.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,210
    Make Corona Great Again
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    eristdoof said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I heard COVID19 was an RNA virus and liable to mutate quickly. Given viruses have a proclivity to mutate towards less harmful forms could this not just peter out by itself ?

    This is called regression to the mean.

    If you see someone who is 6 ft 2 inches it is very likely that the next person you see is shorter. That is just because you have seen a tall person, and by definition most people are not tall. It is however possible that the next person is 6ft4in. If you travel on a train today, you are almost certainly going to see someone who is 6ft4 or taller.

    All organisms mutate. As a virus reproduces quickly, new mutations are arriving and surviving all the time. At least one of the current strains of the new corona virus is bad, lets say equivalent to a 6'4" person. The next mutation is likely to only be a 5'9" on the virus-badness scale. But it could be a 6'5" virus. In the next few months it is likely that one of the mutations is both 6'5" and survives to cause an outbreak.
    Perhaps natural selection also plays a part? Viruses that kill their hosts won't survive so well, and so will tend to be replaced by those that don't. So there will be a natural tendency for viruses to become less lethal over time as the less lethal variants displace the more deadly ones. No idea if this is a significant influence though. Presumably variants that make people cough and sneeze more are also at an advantage when it comes to spreading themselves!
    Less immediately lethal. The “ideal” (from a virus POV) virus is one that is asymptomatic for a long time while still being infectious - like HIV.
    Albeit if the virus had an eventual 100% CFR there would soon be no hosts to infect.
    Quite true - viruses don’t “want” to kill hosts - it’s often the hosts immune system which does for the host - one of the theories behind why the “Spanish (sic - it almost certainly originated in the US) flu” killed so many young people with robust immune systems.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    A question on COVID-19 vs “normal” flu (which most people self misdiagnose).

    How much of the difference is likely related to one factor (vaccination of high percentage of at risk groups)? And how much is down to COVID-19 being (presumably) more dangerous for other reasons? Eg. Higher propensity to spread, higher (normalised ie. imagining their was no vaccine for flu) mortality?

    No idea. But the winter before last, flu deaths in the UK were running at five every day. I must have been on holiday because I don’t remember the wall to wall media coverage.

    Presumably we’ll get the flu deaths as usual, the COVID-19 ones are extra. That’s the problem (I assume): this is on top of all the regular stuff, it’s fast-moving and we just don’t know enough about it.

    My guess is that as soon as Brits are dying daily, it will be plastered all over the pages even at levels still in the same ballpark as normal flu.
    The death rate for this is around 3.4% compared to flu's 0.1%.

    So 35x more deadly if you catch it.

    Bollox, nobody has any accurate death rate at this time, more of your snowflake wittering. It is all just headless chicken speculating at present.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    HYUFD said:
    Fine. But is the bullying tone really necessary?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Pulpstar said:

    Make Corona Great Again

    Every virus has passed its fizzicle!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nue8j_52M6Q
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,880
    Phil said:

    does anyone know where COVID 19 started (I mean the source not the location)

    Believed to come from an animal source in a food market in Hubei province. Originally most likely a bat source, but might have been transmitted to the first human carrier via a pangolin apparently.
    If only there were more vegetarians in China!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    For years??? But that can't be. Our Panicker-in-Chief has assured us that their demise is on account of the Coronavirus.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Johnson, then—and U.S. President Donald Trump and French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel—will be judged in hindsight for decisions taken without that privilege. Did he overreact or underreact? the public will ask. Did he calm a volatile situation or induce panic? Did he show leadership or reveal a lack of it? Is he up to the job? Faced with trying to ensure public confidence in his leadership, Johnson’s first reaction was to turn to experts. Those experts immediately threw the ball back to him.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/03/coronavirus-covid19-politics-crisis-boris-johnson-britain/607456/

    I've criticised Johnson a lot and will continue to do so but that piece opens weirdly critical that Johnson would seek to follow medical experts on such an issue simply because on a much broader issue of Brexit he would not.
This discussion has been closed.