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  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Interesting move from the new Scottish Tory leader. Scottish Tories in general desperately try to ignore any discussion of what their supposed brethren are doing south of the border. Which in itself suggests an elephant sized Boris problem.

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18249689.jackson-carlaw-calls-uk-immigration-plans-work-progress-tory-split/
  • Oxford OED word of the day is 'Overton Window' today.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228

    Oxford OED word of the day is 'Overton Window' today.

    Can the OED not count ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    Sandpit said:

    Puns on classical thinkers, and an argument as to what is gravity.

    All before I've settled down to do any work today.

    Only on pb.com.....

    I did think about reading the classics at university but then I couldn't see what job I could get after it, other than an academic.

    If I became an academic, I'd have been one half of History Today.

    Ditto why I didn't read physics.
    Oxford seems to be full of one half of History Today.

    I can see why you didn't feel the need to swell the glut.

    Oxford is also full of 60's concrete car parks that smell of industrial-strength piss.
    I recently stayed in Oxford, even the hotel I stayed in was a former prison, says it all about the place.
    My parents stayed in that place once, quite the funky hotel concept - although the rooms are a lot bigger and more comfortable now than they used to be!
    Personal experience ... ? :smile:
  • Sandpit said:

    Puns on classical thinkers, and an argument as to what is gravity.

    All before I've settled down to do any work today.

    Only on pb.com.....

    I did think about reading the classics at university but then I couldn't see what job I could get after it, other than an academic.

    If I became an academic, I'd have been one half of History Today.

    Ditto why I didn't read physics.
    Oxford seems to be full of one half of History Today.

    I can see why you didn't feel the need to swell the glut.

    Oxford is also full of 60's concrete car parks that smell of industrial-strength piss.
    I recently stayed in Oxford, even the hotel I stayed in was a former prison, says it all about the place.
    My parents stayed in that place once, quite the funky hotel concept - although the rooms are a lot bigger and more comfortable now than they used to be!
    The Malmaison/Hotel Du Vin group do some funky hotels.

    The York Hotel Du Vin is a former orphanage.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:
    I saw Parasite the other day. Brilliant movie and great acting, rightly winner.

    Not surprised Donald cites Gone With the Wind as the sort of film that should win.
    He's never seen it, I'll wager.

    He really is an absolute turd.

    And he has his defenders/allies on this site, which makes me shake my head in disbelief.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230

    Because it is horrific to try and ban improving education.

    You should be trying to tackle those who neglect education, not those who want to improve it.

    No ban on anything. Read my lips. No ban. No banning going on.

    It's all good, Philip. You need to trust me on this.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF666 said:
    My son will be sitting his highers in approximately 2 months. From close hand experience the problems are deep rooted and not capable of simple solutions.
    There are ongoing problems with changes to the curriculum in several subjects such as computing. Well resourced teachers in private schools seem uncertain exactly what is being looked for and the constant changes make the use of past papers problematic. It seems likely in many state schools pupils will be presented with things they have not covered.

    The marking schedules are astonishingly prescriptive and available online. This takes teaching to the test to a whole new level. It also means that there are a lot of "magic" words that have to be used with a substantively similar answer not getting the marks. Some subjects, notably biology, seem to think that their task is to increase the complexity of their subject by asking poorly framed and ambiguous questions rather than actually asking for a more detailed understanding of the subject.

    Curriculum choice is another major issue with subjects like economics being largely unavailable in the state sector. The switch to N5 has resulted, in general, with a significant reduction in the number of subjects sat in most state schools from 7 to 5, resulting in a reduced number of options for Higher. One of the glories of the Scottish system used to be the breadth of learning compared with the English A level system. That is being lost.

    I could go on all morning but obviously this is not of great interest to most readers of the site. In my opinion the main criticism of the SNP is that they have allowed the educational establishment to run riot with very little in the way of accountability or objective assessment. It's typical. Their focus is always on the prize of independence, not on the day to day running of government.
    Clearly these education reforms have been badly botched. They originate back to Labour days, but I would say one of the original problems was that teachers weren't brought along nor did they buy into the programme. The SNP who continued with the project they inherited have had plenty of time to remediate it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424


    Would you ban parents from taking children to museums?

    That would be unbelievably popular with children.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    ydoethur said:

    It always amused me (not getting at you here, btw) that New Labour used to make that point and suggest France as a classic example.

    This despite the fact that France has twice as many children in private education as the UK, and still has what amounts to an assisted places scheme - largely because French state education is absolutely shit.

    Well I'm not suggesting France as a template. Certainly not. Ape the French? Perish la thought.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    edited February 2020

    RobD said:

    Two little things for Sir Keir to think about.
    1) by the next general election Scotland is likely to have 52 MPs instead of the current 59 in a parliament with 600 MPs rather than 650 MPs.
    2) as things stand at present, SLAB is likely to go backwards at the Holyrood election next year. They are frankly seen as irrelevant by most in what is becoming an SNP (Independence) v SCon (Unionist) battle with pockets of SLibs not unlike their situation from 1945-1987 and a handful of Greens elected from the Guardian reading politically correct brigade and student communities.

    However let's see if Nicola Sturgeon survives the Alex Salmond trial. It could get very very dirty for the SNP.

    I think the reduction of the number of MPs has been shelved, although new boundaries may adjust the numbers a little bit.
    The law says any new boundaries need 600 MPs. Unless a new Act of Parliament is put through - and relatively quickly, it will be a case of either accepting the reduction or keeping the old boundaries. The latter would be bonkers, but I've not seen any movement either way yet.
    Thank goodness we have a Prime Minister who is absolutely not bonkers and will always do what’s right, not what’s easy or popular.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623
    kinabalu said:

    Because it is horrific to try and ban improving education.

    You should be trying to tackle those who neglect education, not those who want to improve it.

    No ban on anything. Read my lips. No ban. No banning going on.

    It's all good, Philip. You need to trust me on this.
    What would you do about Eton, Harrow and Westminster schools, that would stop them shutting down and reappearing in Singapore or Dubai - adding millions of SG$ and Dirhams of international money to those economies instead of the UK?
  • We need a bigger debate for Scotland than can Labour win MPs there. The constitutional settlement for the whole UK needs to be looked at - the West Lothian question was never answered and the cracks are there for all to see.

    A Federal UK is the solution. Scotland can be a free nation with its existing own laws, currency and policies self-contained and unencumbered. Wales can have a parliament that actually has some powers for the first time. Ulster can decide what it wants and have the space constitutionally to do so.

    As for the area currently known as England, it needs devolving back into its components as it no longer functions properly. You couldn't have a Federation where one of the 4 states was so much larger than the others. So leave England as a historic ex-nation and recreate what was before. Northumbria. Wessex. Mercia. Kernow can do its own thing. Yorkshire the same.

    And if some of these places want to vote to turn themselves into one of the shitkicker districts from the Hunger Games, send the darkies home and scavenge a living from whatever local resources for local people they can find, thats up to them.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    edited February 2020

    We need a bigger debate for Scotland than can Labour win MPs there. The constitutional settlement for the whole UK needs to be looked at - the West Lothian question was never answered and the cracks are there for all to see.

    A Federal UK is the solution. Scotland can be a free nation with its existing own laws, currency and policies self-contained and unencumbered. Wales can have a parliament that actually has some powers for the first time. Ulster can decide what it wants and have the space constitutionally to do so.

    As for the area currently known as England, it needs devolving back into its components as it no longer functions properly. You couldn't have a Federation where one of the 4 states was so much larger than the others. So leave England as a historic ex-nation and recreate what was before. Northumbria. Wessex. Mercia. Kernow can do its own thing. Yorkshire the same.

    And if some of these places want to vote to turn themselves into one of the shitkicker districts from the Hunger Games, send the darkies home and scavenge a living from whatever local resources for local people they can find, thats up to them.

    England no longer functions properly?
  • We need a bigger debate for Scotland than can Labour win MPs there. The constitutional settlement for the whole UK needs to be looked at - the West Lothian question was never answered and the cracks are there for all to see.

    A Federal UK is the solution. Scotland can be a free nation with its existing own laws, currency and policies self-contained and unencumbered. Wales can have a parliament that actually has some powers for the first time. Ulster can decide what it wants and have the space constitutionally to do so.

    As for the area currently known as England, it needs devolving back into its components as it no longer functions properly. You couldn't have a Federation where one of the 4 states was so much larger than the others. So leave England as a historic ex-nation and recreate what was before. Northumbria. Wessex. Mercia. Kernow can do its own thing. Yorkshire the same.

    And if some of these places want to vote to turn themselves into one of the shitkicker districts from the Hunger Games, send the darkies home and scavenge a living from whatever local resources for local people they can find, thats up to them.

    We had votes/referendum in the North East along those lines, and it was rejected.

  • Mr. Pioneers, that's absolute nonsense.

    Who are you to say England should cease to be?

    Riddling England with political dividing lines is a mad idea.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    We need a bigger debate for Scotland than can Labour win MPs there. The constitutional settlement for the whole UK needs to be looked at - the West Lothian question was never answered and the cracks are there for all to see.

    A Federal UK is the solution. Scotland can be a free nation with its existing own laws, currency and policies self-contained and unencumbered. Wales can have a parliament that actually has some powers for the first time. Ulster can decide what it wants and have the space constitutionally to do so.

    As for the area currently known as England, it needs devolving back into its components as it no longer functions properly. You couldn't have a Federation where one of the 4 states was so much larger than the others. So leave England as a historic ex-nation and recreate what was before. Northumbria. Wessex. Mercia. Kernow can do its own thing. Yorkshire the same.

    And if some of these places want to vote to turn themselves into one of the shitkicker districts from the Hunger Games, send the darkies home and scavenge a living from whatever local resources for local people they can find, thats up to them.

    Seems like a lot of hassle when we could just have had a European superstate and regions? ;)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    RobD said:

    We need a bigger debate for Scotland than can Labour win MPs there. The constitutional settlement for the whole UK needs to be looked at - the West Lothian question was never answered and the cracks are there for all to see.

    A Federal UK is the solution. Scotland can be a free nation with its existing own laws, currency and policies self-contained and unencumbered. Wales can have a parliament that actually has some powers for the first time. Ulster can decide what it wants and have the space constitutionally to do so.

    As for the area currently known as England, it needs devolving back into its components as it no longer functions properly. You couldn't have a Federation where one of the 4 states was so much larger than the others. So leave England as a historic ex-nation and recreate what was before. Northumbria. Wessex. Mercia. Kernow can do its own thing. Yorkshire the same.

    And if some of these places want to vote to turn themselves into one of the shitkicker districts from the Hunger Games, send the darkies home and scavenge a living from whatever local resources for local people they can find, thats up to them.

    England no longer functions properly?
    When kids lose they often try and destroy the game
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    FF43 said:

    Interesting move from the new Scottish Tory leader. Scottish Tories in general desperately try to ignore any discussion of what their supposed brethren are doing south of the border. Which in itself suggests an elephant sized Boris problem.

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18249689.jackson-carlaw-calls-uk-immigration-plans-work-progress-tory-split/

    But as I said yeterday, he is being naive. Allow them into Scotland to do the jobs that Scots don't want to do, and they won't do those jobs - they'll just immediately leg it down to London. Much cheaper and safer than paying a snakehead to get them over the Channel.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. L, quite. It turns out creating political divisions creates political divisions (it's why those advocating breaking England up into little regional assemblies are so wrong). Embedding political dividing lines because Labour thought it'd have obedient Celtic fiefdoms forever only to find themselves on the wrong side and 40 odd MPs down is the constitutional equivalent of 'not a shot fired' in Afghanistan.

    Your diagnosis is completely incorrect. England desperately needs regional assemblies. They would improve accountability, and democratic experimentation.

    Do you think regional government is a failure in the USA or Germany? Or any other reasonably successful larger country, except our own head-in-the-sand shithole?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    edited February 2020
    Sandpit said:

    What would you do about Eton, Harrow and Westminster schools, that would stop them shutting down and reappearing in Singapore or Dubai - adding millions of SG$ and Dirhams of international money to those economies instead of the UK?

    Absolutely nothing. Indeed that would be a welcome development.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    IanB2 said:

    We need a bigger debate for Scotland than can Labour win MPs there. The constitutional settlement for the whole UK needs to be looked at - the West Lothian question was never answered and the cracks are there for all to see.

    A Federal UK is the solution. Scotland can be a free nation with its existing own laws, currency and policies self-contained and unencumbered. Wales can have a parliament that actually has some powers for the first time. Ulster can decide what it wants and have the space constitutionally to do so.

    As for the area currently known as England, it needs devolving back into its components as it no longer functions properly. You couldn't have a Federation where one of the 4 states was so much larger than the others. So leave England as a historic ex-nation and recreate what was before. Northumbria. Wessex. Mercia. Kernow can do its own thing. Yorkshire the same.

    And if some of these places want to vote to turn themselves into one of the shitkicker districts from the Hunger Games, send the darkies home and scavenge a living from whatever local resources for local people they can find, thats up to them.

    Seems like a lot of hassle when we could just have had a European superstate and regions? ;)
    Wasn't one of these regions the south east plus a bit of France? Sickening.... unless the EU were recognising our right vis-a-vis the treaty of Troyes. :p
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Two little things for Sir Keir to think about.
    1) by the next general election Scotland is likely to have 52 MPs instead of the current 59 in a parliament with 600 MPs rather than 650 MPs.
    2) as things stand at present, SLAB is likely to go backwards at the Holyrood election next year. They are frankly seen as irrelevant by most in what is becoming an SNP (Independence) v SCon (Unionist) battle with pockets of SLibs not unlike their situation from 1945-1987 and a handful of Greens elected from the Guardian reading politically correct brigade and student communities.

    However let's see if Nicola Sturgeon survives the Alex Salmond trial. It could get very very dirty for the SNP.

    I think the reduction of the number of MPs has been shelved, although new boundaries may adjust the numbers a little bit.
    The law says any new boundaries need 600 MPs. Unless a new Act of Parliament is put through - and relatively quickly, it will be a case of either accepting the reduction or keeping the old boundaries. The latter would be bonkers, but I've not seen any movement either way yet.
    Thank goodness we have a Prime Minister who is absolutely not bonkers and will always do what’s right, not what’s easy or popular.
    MPs collectively have an interest in keeping more seats and in boundaries not radically different from their current ones. The imperative for a reduction has gone away and a new argument for a larger parliament arises post-Brexit. Plus the data used for the last review is itself getting old. Therefore I confidently expect a new review aimed at 650.
  • Mr. Pioneers, that's absolute nonsense.

    Who are you to say England should cease to be?

    Riddling England with political dividing lines is a mad idea.

    There's an argument to be made (and often made my the current government) that the needs of say the North of England are vastly different to the needs to say the South of England.

    The Northern Powerhouse region with devolved powers would focus on say better rail services between the great Northern cities rather spaff billions on HS2.

    Andy Burnham has this idea

    https://twitter.com/MENnewsdesk/status/1230785039950057476
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    We need a bigger debate for Scotland than can Labour win MPs there. The constitutional settlement for the whole UK needs to be looked at - the West Lothian question was never answered and the cracks are there for all to see.

    A Federal UK is the solution. Scotland can be a free nation with its existing own laws, currency and policies self-contained and unencumbered. Wales can have a parliament that actually has some powers for the first time. Ulster can decide what it wants and have the space constitutionally to do so.

    As for the area currently known as England, it needs devolving back into its components as it no longer functions properly. You couldn't have a Federation where one of the 4 states was so much larger than the others. So leave England as a historic ex-nation and recreate what was before. Northumbria. Wessex. Mercia. Kernow can do its own thing. Yorkshire the same.

    And if some of these places want to vote to turn themselves into one of the shitkicker districts from the Hunger Games, send the darkies home and scavenge a living from whatever local resources for local people they can find, thats up to them.

    Seems like a lot of hassle when we could just have had a European superstate and regions? ;)
    Wasn't one of these regions the south east plus a bit of France? Sickening.... unless the EU were recognising our right vis-a-vis the treaty of Troyes. :p
    Not that I am aware
  • FF43 said:

    Interesting move from the new Scottish Tory leader. Scottish Tories in general desperately try to ignore any discussion of what their supposed brethren are doing south of the border. Which in itself suggests an elephant sized Boris problem.

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18249689.jackson-carlaw-calls-uk-immigration-plans-work-progress-tory-split/

    But as I said yeterday, he is being naive. Allow them into Scotland to do the jobs that Scots don't want to do, and they won't do those jobs - they'll just immediately leg it down to London. Much cheaper and safer than paying a snakehead to get them over the Channel.

    If it's a Scottish only visa they would not be able to get jobs outside of Scotland.

  • Owen Jones column in the Guardian is remarkably honest
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    So leave England as a historic ex-nation and recreate what was before. Northumbria. Wessex. Mercia. Kernow can do its own thing. Yorkshire the same.

    Yorkshire was part of Northumbria under the Heptarchy. Indeed, one of the two traditional capitals of Northumbria was York.
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    edited February 2020
    Mango said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:
    I saw Parasite the other day. Brilliant movie and great acting, rightly winner.

    Not surprised Donald cites Gone With the Wind as the sort of film that should win.
    He's never seen it, I'll wager.

    He really is an absolute turd.

    And he has his defenders/allies on this site, which makes me shake my head in disbelief.
    For the past 12 years the Oscar for Best Picture is a consolation prize given to the best film that no one has seen.

    Because the best people in the movie industry have moved to Internet TV, there is a real lack of talent that can marry the commercial with the artistic.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230

    There's an argument to be made for that, but what next?

    Would you ban parents buying books to read them to their children? Or for their children to read themselves?
    Would you ban extracurricular learning? Would you ban science camps etc?
    Would you ban paying for tutors?
    Would you ban parents from taking children to museums?

    And how would you enforce all that? Its bullshit, people who value education find a way to help their kids - and we should be encouraging that not condemning it!

    It's a big fat NO across the board. No banning. Thus nothing to enforce. All parents investing their voucher in their school of choice PLUS doing lots of other stuff on the side to help their kids reach their potential. Yes indeedy.

    This is going swimmingly, I must say.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    We need a bigger debate for Scotland than can Labour win MPs there. The constitutional settlement for the whole UK needs to be looked at - the West Lothian question was never answered and the cracks are there for all to see.

    A Federal UK is the solution. Scotland can be a free nation with its existing own laws, currency and policies self-contained and unencumbered. Wales can have a parliament that actually has some powers for the first time. Ulster can decide what it wants and have the space constitutionally to do so.

    As for the area currently known as England, it needs devolving back into its components as it no longer functions properly. You couldn't have a Federation where one of the 4 states was so much larger than the others. So leave England as a historic ex-nation and recreate what was before. Northumbria. Wessex. Mercia. Kernow can do its own thing. Yorkshire the same.

    And if some of these places want to vote to turn themselves into one of the shitkicker districts from the Hunger Games, send the darkies home and scavenge a living from whatever local resources for local people they can find, thats up to them.

    Seems like a lot of hassle when we could just have had a European superstate and regions? ;)
    Wasn't one of these regions the south east plus a bit of France? Sickening.... unless the EU were recognising our right vis-a-vis the treaty of Troyes. :p
    The South West included Gibraltar.
  • We need a bigger debate for Scotland than can Labour win MPs there. The constitutional settlement for the whole UK needs to be looked at - the West Lothian question was never answered and the cracks are there for all to see.

    A Federal UK is the solution. Scotland can be a free nation with its existing own laws, currency and policies self-contained and unencumbered. Wales can have a parliament that actually has some powers for the first time. Ulster can decide what it wants and have the space constitutionally to do so.

    As for the area currently known as England, it needs devolving back into its components as it no longer functions properly. You couldn't have a Federation where one of the 4 states was so much larger than the others. So leave England as a historic ex-nation and recreate what was before. Northumbria. Wessex. Mercia. Kernow can do its own thing. Yorkshire the same.

    And if some of these places want to vote to turn themselves into one of the shitkicker districts from the Hunger Games, send the darkies home and scavenge a living from whatever local resources for local people they can find, thats up to them.

    The problem here is that counties are too small and regions too nebulous.

    Also what powers should be devolved? Are we ready for a Yorkshire Health Service or a Wessex Education service? Would they be able to vary their tax rates or minimum wage?

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    What would you do about Eton, Harrow and Westminster schools, that would stop them shutting down and reappearing in Singapore or Dubai - adding millions of SG$ and Dirhams of international money to those economies instead of the UK?

    Absolutely nothing. Indeed that would be a welcome development.
    How is taking millions of foreign investment out of the country a good thing?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    FF43 said:

    Scottish Labour need independence to stop being the most important issue, either because most Scots accept the Union or Scotland moves definitively towards independence. As neither seems likely to happen in the immediate term, Labour will continue to struggle.

    Too little, too late.

    Even if independence ceases to be an issue then the SNP have cornered the market on the "Not Tory, left wing, standing up for Scotland" vote.

    So what do Scottish Labour stand for? Even if independence ceases to be an issue what is the Scottish Labour Parties USP? Not many votes available in "Not Tory, left wing, don't want to stand up for Scotland".
    The SNP is such a broad church that without its one compelling policy it would fall apart. Its membership stretches from unvarnished capitalists like our own MalcolmG to actual communists. It keeps going by being a nationalist party and everything else is policy-free.

    There is a space for a communitarian, left wing party in Scotland, which isn't the SNP. But only if people think that's more important than independence.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    We need a bigger debate for Scotland than can Labour win MPs there. The constitutional settlement for the whole UK needs to be looked at - the West Lothian question was never answered and the cracks are there for all to see.

    A Federal UK is the solution. Scotland can be a free nation with its existing own laws, currency and policies self-contained and unencumbered. Wales can have a parliament that actually has some powers for the first time. Ulster can decide what it wants and have the space constitutionally to do so.

    As for the area currently known as England, it needs devolving back into its components as it no longer functions properly. You couldn't have a Federation where one of the 4 states was so much larger than the others. So leave England as a historic ex-nation and recreate what was before. Northumbria. Wessex. Mercia. Kernow can do its own thing. Yorkshire the same.

    And if some of these places want to vote to turn themselves into one of the shitkicker districts from the Hunger Games, send the darkies home and scavenge a living from whatever local resources for local people they can find, thats up to them.

    Seems like a lot of hassle when we could just have had a European superstate and regions? ;)
    Wasn't one of these regions the south east plus a bit of France? Sickening.... unless the EU were recognising our right vis-a-vis the treaty of Troyes. :p
    The South West included Gibraltar.
    It's to the South West, isn't it? :)
  • Mr. Mango, you're comparing two nations that are entirely different. Germany was a fusion of various states into a larger whole which is why it has such a peppering of large cities all over the place. The USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically.

    What you're talking about is cutting England into pieces, something that was never done to Scotland. And do you propose to give these assemblies powers equal to Holyrood? Will you have Lancastrians taxed differently to Yorkshiremen? And, if not, what's the point? You're creating bureaucracy without authority and relegating English devolution to a lower level than Scotland.

    Mr. Eagles, that's a different path to assemblies or an English Parliament. I do have a problem with the mayoral position being large cities only and delinquent London politicians preventing the desired Yorkshire-wide mayoral post. A Parliament, however, must be for England, to have powers equal to those of Holyrood. Anything else is carving England to pieces or playing with glorified councils.
  • Owen Jones column in the Guardian is remarkably honest

    Owen Jones is a pretty smart guy, but he does seem to have an innate weakness of sucking up to some of the worst of the left and getting carried away with them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    speedy2 said:

    Mango said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:
    I saw Parasite the other day. Brilliant movie and great acting, rightly winner.

    Not surprised Donald cites Gone With the Wind as the sort of film that should win.
    He's never seen it, I'll wager.

    He really is an absolute turd.

    And he has his defenders/allies on this site, which makes me shake my head in disbelief.
    For the past 12 years the Oscar for Best Picture is a consolation prize given to the best film that no one has seen.

    Because the best people in the movie industry have moved to Internet TV, there is a real lack of talent that can marry the commercial with the artistic.
    Have you not seen it yet?

    Parasite is very good indeed. Considerably better than most Oscar winners. A pretty good turnout in our multiplex too last Saturday.
  • Mr. Mango, you're comparing two nations that are entirely different. Germany was a fusion of various states into a larger whole which is why it has such a peppering of large cities all over the place. The USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically.

    What you're talking about is cutting England into pieces, something that was never done to Scotland. And do you propose to give these assemblies powers equal to Holyrood? Will you have Lancastrians taxed differently to Yorkshiremen? And, if not, what's the point? You're creating bureaucracy without authority and relegating English devolution to a lower level than Scotland.

    Mr. Eagles, that's a different path to assemblies or an English Parliament. I do have a problem with the mayoral position being large cities only and delinquent London politicians preventing the desired Yorkshire-wide mayoral post. A Parliament, however, must be for England, to have powers equal to those of Holyrood. Anything else is carving England to pieces or playing with glorified councils.

    I'm sorry the USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically?

    I mean the USA didn't start off as a handful of colonies then evolved into a 50 state federation did it?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    What would you do about Eton, Harrow and Westminster schools, that would stop them shutting down and reappearing in Singapore or Dubai - adding millions of SG$ and Dirhams of international money to those economies instead of the UK?

    Absolutely nothing. Indeed that would be a welcome development.
    How is taking millions of foreign investment out of the country a good thing?
    It can be. Ask the daft twats who voted leave.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Puns on classical thinkers, and an argument as to what is gravity.

    All before I've settled down to do any work today.

    Only on pb.com.....

    I did think about reading the classics at university but then I couldn't see what job I could get after it, other than an academic.

    If I became an academic, I'd have been one half of History Today.

    Ditto why I didn't read physics.
    Oxford seems to be full of one half of History Today.

    I can see why you didn't feel the need to swell the glut.

    Oxford is also full of 60's concrete car parks that smell of industrial-strength piss.
    I recently stayed in Oxford, even the hotel I stayed in was a former prison, says it all about the place.
    They kept prisoners from.Cambridge in it.
  • kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    That’s not necessarily an indicator of current performance. Those rankings are likely as the result of policy changes ten years ago under Labour, because we don’t get meaningful data on changes until a whole cohort has been through a system.

    Indeed, one of the problems with education is that since the 1980s there has been such constant change it’s difficult to identify the impact of any one event on the achievement of children. But that, in itself, is almost certainly damaging their education.

    Exactly. Find the best way other than banning to get rid of private schools and then stop the meddling. Let cooks cook. Let cobblers cobble. Let tinkers tinker. Let teachers teach.
    I've seen a couple of studies that suggest a strong link between the number of private schools and the performance of state schools - the more private schools there are, the better state schools perform. If those studies are correct, rather than looking to get rid of private schools we should be encouraging more of them.

    When I look at the products of the public school system currently running the country, I am genuinely struggling to believe that these places produce the quality of individual we are consistently told they do. What they seem to be very good at is providing the mediocre offspring of the wealthy with outstanding contacts and an inflated sense of their own worth. For parents, of course, that's money well spent. But it is not much good for the country.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    Sandpit said:

    How is taking millions of foreign investment out of the country a good thing?

    Because this "investment" generates negative benefits for UK plc. And the removal of a negative is a positive.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    Mr. Mango, you're comparing two nations that are entirely different. Germany was a fusion of various states into a larger whole which is why it has such a peppering of large cities all over the place. The USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically.

    What you're talking about is cutting England into pieces, something that was never done to Scotland. And do you propose to give these assemblies powers equal to Holyrood? Will you have Lancastrians taxed differently to Yorkshiremen? And, if not, what's the point? You're creating bureaucracy without authority and relegating English devolution to a lower level than Scotland.

    Mr. Eagles, that's a different path to assemblies or an English Parliament. I do have a problem with the mayoral position being large cities only and delinquent London politicians preventing the desired Yorkshire-wide mayoral post. A Parliament, however, must be for England, to have powers equal to those of Holyrood. Anything else is carving England to pieces or playing with glorified councils.

    I'm sorry the USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically?

    I mean the USA didn't start off as a handful of colonies then evolved into a 50 state federation did it?
    It was an idea that had purchase.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    That’s not necessarily an indicator of current performance. Those rankings are likely as the result of policy changes ten years ago under Labour, because we don’t get meaningful data on changes until a whole cohort has been through a system.

    Indeed, one of the problems with education is that since the 1980s there has been such constant change it’s difficult to identify the impact of any one event on the achievement of children. But that, in itself, is almost certainly damaging their education.

    Exactly. Find the best way other than banning to get rid of private schools and then stop the meddling. Let cooks cook. Let cobblers cobble. Let tinkers tinker. Let teachers teach.
    I've seen a couple of studies that suggest a strong link between the number of private schools and the performance of state schools - the more private schools there are, the better state schools perform. If those studies are correct, rather than looking to get rid of private schools we should be encouraging more of them.

    When I look at the products of the public school system currently running the country, I am genuinely struggling to believe that these places produce the quality of individual we are consistently told they do. What they seem to be very good at is providing the mediocre offspring of the wealthy with outstanding contacts and an inflated sense of their own worth. For parents, of course, that's money well spent. But it is not much good for the country.

    Wallies with confidence
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230

    Owen Jones column in the Guardian is remarkably honest

    He's a good writer. I encourage more people (especially of your persuasion) to read him. They will be pleasantly surprised.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited February 2020
    RobD said:

    We need a bigger debate for Scotland than can Labour win MPs there. The constitutional settlement for the whole UK needs to be looked at - the West Lothian question was never answered and the cracks are there for all to see.

    A Federal UK is the solution. Scotland can be a free nation with its existing own laws, currency and policies self-contained and unencumbered. Wales can have a parliament that actually has some powers for the first time. Ulster can decide what it wants and have the space constitutionally to do so.

    As for the area currently known as England, it needs devolving back into its components as it no longer functions properly. You couldn't have a Federation where one of the 4 states was so much larger than the others. So leave England as a historic ex-nation and recreate what was before. Northumbria. Wessex. Mercia. Kernow can do its own thing. Yorkshire the same.

    And if some of these places want to vote to turn themselves into one of the shitkicker districts from the Hunger Games, send the darkies home and scavenge a living from whatever local resources for local people they can find, thats up to them.

    England no longer functions properly?
    No, and the problem with "the Right" not recognising this is that the Left comes up with "solutions" that eventually gain traction, and which tend to be damaging.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Interesting update from the nearly always well-informed Labour List (worth subscribing to their daily news if you're even vaguely interested in Labour, perhaps just for betting purposes):

    The voting for those national elections may not have taken place yet, but other internal votes have been held in London over the last week. And the fresh results of Labour’s London Assembly candidate selections – due to be officially revealed today but leaked early last night – have delighted Corbynsceptics. A few months ago, they were not expecting to do well at all: it was a Corbynite membership; they felt the shortlist had been ‘stitched up’; and the freeze date applied was September 2018 (yes, 2018, thanks to multiple delays mostly caused by the European elections and snap general).

    Yet those selection candidates endorsed by Labour First, rather than Momentum, have almost swept the board in selections for constituencies. The results for the London-wide list were better for the Labour left. But this is a highly encouraging outcome for Corbynsceptics – particularly following the selection of Liam Byrne over Pete Lowe and Salma Yaqoob in the West Midlands. They believe the shock of the general election defeat has changed not only the make-up of the party membership, with the help of Jess Phillips’ and Keir Starmer’s campaigns, but even the minds (or at least the enthusiasm) of pre-existing members.
  • Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    FF43 said:

    Interesting move from the new Scottish Tory leader. Scottish Tories in general desperately try to ignore any discussion of what their supposed brethren are doing south of the border. Which in itself suggests an elephant sized Boris problem.

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18249689.jackson-carlaw-calls-uk-immigration-plans-work-progress-tory-split/

    But as I said yeterday, he is being naive. Allow them into Scotland to do the jobs that Scots don't want to do, and they won't do those jobs - they'll just immediately leg it down to London. Much cheaper and safer than paying a snakehead to get them over the Channel.
    I don't think Carlaw necessarily wants a Scotland-only immigration policy. (Sturgeon certainly does). The implication is that he would prefer to influence the UK policy. His naivety probably is in thinking Scotland has any influence at all on the current UK government and the Brexit process.

    He is sort of making the SNP's point for them, not just in what he says but in his general reluctance to speak about Conservative policy and the UK government that his party runs.

    On your specific point, we are talking about legal immigration, where immigration is tied to a job offer. The snakeheads will be doing their stuff illegally anyway.
  • ydoethur said:

    Mr. Mango, you're comparing two nations that are entirely different. Germany was a fusion of various states into a larger whole which is why it has such a peppering of large cities all over the place. The USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically.

    What you're talking about is cutting England into pieces, something that was never done to Scotland. And do you propose to give these assemblies powers equal to Holyrood? Will you have Lancastrians taxed differently to Yorkshiremen? And, if not, what's the point? You're creating bureaucracy without authority and relegating English devolution to a lower level than Scotland.

    Mr. Eagles, that's a different path to assemblies or an English Parliament. I do have a problem with the mayoral position being large cities only and delinquent London politicians preventing the desired Yorkshire-wide mayoral post. A Parliament, however, must be for England, to have powers equal to those of Holyrood. Anything else is carving England to pieces or playing with glorified councils.

    I'm sorry the USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically?

    I mean the USA didn't start off as a handful of colonies then evolved into a 50 state federation did it?
    It was an idea that had purchase.
    Indeed, it only confirms my suspicions Morris Dancer read History at Oxford.

    It can only be the explanation for such a consistently poor grasp of history.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    How is taking millions of foreign investment out of the country a good thing?

    Because this "investment" generates negative benefits for UK plc. And the removal of a negative is a positive.
    I think you severely underestimate the extent to which the middle and upper classes will go to give their kids the best education possible.

    This includes sending them abroad - as already happens with the thousands of rich kids from developing countries who are educated in the UK every year.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230

    Oxford OED word of the day is 'Overton Window' today.

    Which Jeremy moved! :smile:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    ydoethur said:
    Really, I think it's one of his weaker efforts.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Mango, you're comparing two nations that are entirely different. Germany was a fusion of various states into a larger whole which is why it has such a peppering of large cities all over the place. The USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically.

    What you're talking about is cutting England into pieces, something that was never done to Scotland. And do you propose to give these assemblies powers equal to Holyrood? Will you have Lancastrians taxed differently to Yorkshiremen? And, if not, what's the point? You're creating bureaucracy without authority and relegating English devolution to a lower level than Scotland.

    Mr. Eagles, that's a different path to assemblies or an English Parliament. I do have a problem with the mayoral position being large cities only and delinquent London politicians preventing the desired Yorkshire-wide mayoral post. A Parliament, however, must be for England, to have powers equal to those of Holyrood. Anything else is carving England to pieces or playing with glorified councils.

    I'm sorry the USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically?

    I mean the USA didn't start off as a handful of colonies then evolved into a 50 state federation did it?
    It was an idea that had purchase.
    Too subtle for many.
  • kinabalu said:

    Owen Jones column in the Guardian is remarkably honest

    He's a good writer. I encourage more people (especially of your persuasion) to read him. They will be pleasantly surprised.
    You may be surprised but reading the guardian on line is something I do frequently

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    And an admirably honest interview with Nandy (she's spot on about the obsession of some members with marginal issues):

    https://labourlist.org/2020/02/interview-lisa-nandy-surprised-by-level-of-misogyny-in-leadership-race/
  • Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    Sandpit said:

    I think you severely underestimate the extent to which the middle and upper classes will go to give their kids the best education possible.

    This includes sending them abroad - as already happens with the thousands of rich kids from developing countries who are educated in the UK every year.

    Perhaps. But I would be prepared to find out.

    This is an omelette and eggs thing. For me, the omelette is such an attractive prospect that I can happily use up a lot of eggs if needs be.

    You, OTOH, won't use any eggs at all because you don't even want an omelette.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    speedy2 said:

    Mango said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:
    I saw Parasite the other day. Brilliant movie and great acting, rightly winner.

    Not surprised Donald cites Gone With the Wind as the sort of film that should win.
    He's never seen it, I'll wager.

    He really is an absolute turd.

    And he has his defenders/allies on this site, which makes me shake my head in disbelief.
    For the past 12 years the Oscar for Best Picture is a consolation prize given to the best film that no one has seen.

    Because the best people in the movie industry have moved to Internet TV, there is a real lack of talent that can marry the commercial with the artistic.
    Parasite has grossed over $200m so far, so 'no one' isn't quite accurate.
    And there is a very healthy interchange between film and TV production in S. Korea.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    matt said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Mango, you're comparing two nations that are entirely different. Germany was a fusion of various states into a larger whole which is why it has such a peppering of large cities all over the place. The USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically.

    What you're talking about is cutting England into pieces, something that was never done to Scotland. And do you propose to give these assemblies powers equal to Holyrood? Will you have Lancastrians taxed differently to Yorkshiremen? And, if not, what's the point? You're creating bureaucracy without authority and relegating English devolution to a lower level than Scotland.

    Mr. Eagles, that's a different path to assemblies or an English Parliament. I do have a problem with the mayoral position being large cities only and delinquent London politicians preventing the desired Yorkshire-wide mayoral post. A Parliament, however, must be for England, to have powers equal to those of Holyrood. Anything else is carving England to pieces or playing with glorified councils.

    I'm sorry the USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically?

    I mean the USA didn't start off as a handful of colonies then evolved into a 50 state federation did it?
    It was an idea that had purchase.
    Too subtle for many.
    It Gadsden conversation going.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Mr. Pioneers, that's absolute nonsense.

    Who are you to say England should cease to be?

    Riddling England with political dividing lines is a mad idea.

    Not least because the idea of returning to what it used to be is barmy - that was 1000 years ago for crying out loud, what it is now has been its identity for a lot longer than anything else. Yes the sheer scale of England relative to the rest causes problems but pretending England isnt a sensible unit is just silly.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    edited February 2020

    Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
    Actually it’s 27. 33 were proposed, but six were never ratified.

    The 27th Amendment is priceless - 202 years and a piqued college student required to ratify it!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited February 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Owen Jones column in the Guardian is remarkably honest

    He's a good writer. I encourage more people (especially of your persuasion) to read him. They will be pleasantly surprised.
    “Freedom is pretty meaningless if you don’t have the resources to be secure.”

    This is a nice line, that sums up what so many people inexplicably don't get about FOM

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    edited February 2020

    Interesting update from the nearly always well-informed Labour List (worth subscribing to their daily news if you're even vaguely interested in Labour, perhaps just for betting purposes):

    The voting for those national elections may not have taken place yet, but other internal votes have been held in London over the last week. And the fresh results of Labour’s London Assembly candidate selections – due to be officially revealed today but leaked early last night – have delighted Corbynsceptics. A few months ago, they were not expecting to do well at all: it was a Corbynite membership; they felt the shortlist had been ‘stitched up’; and the freeze date applied was September 2018 (yes, 2018, thanks to multiple delays mostly caused by the European elections and snap general).

    Yet those selection candidates endorsed by Labour First, rather than Momentum, have almost swept the board in selections for constituencies. The results for the London-wide list were better for the Labour left. But this is a highly encouraging outcome for Corbynsceptics – particularly following the selection of Liam Byrne over Pete Lowe and Salma Yaqoob in the West Midlands. They believe the shock of the general election defeat has changed not only the make-up of the party membership, with the help of Jess Phillips’ and Keir Starmer’s campaigns, but even the minds (or at least the enthusiasm) of pre-existing members.

    Yep. From what I have heard non-Corbyn candidates have won just about every constituency selection for the London Assembly. It is also now thought that the database of supporters Starmer has is bigger than Momentum's. If that is the case, things could change quite quickly in the overall party structure should Starmer win. That would not only be good for Labour, but also fo the country. However, all this is a process. Labour's fortunes will not suddenly improve.

    The first thing Labour has to do is to provide a meaningful opposition. Even with only 200 MPs to choose from, the new leader could assemble a shadow cabinet that person for person is far better than the actual Cabinet Johnson has put together. That would be a huge first step. And if Labour does start opposing effectively, that will strengthen the new leader inside the party.

    Key to success will be understanding that Cummings believes the only way to keep the Tory electoral coalition together is through fighting a permanent culture war - at home and abroad. Refusing to engage woud make that a whole lot harder.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited February 2020

    FF43 said:

    Interesting move from the new Scottish Tory leader. Scottish Tories in general desperately try to ignore any discussion of what their supposed brethren are doing south of the border. Which in itself suggests an elephant sized Boris problem.

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18249689.jackson-carlaw-calls-uk-immigration-plans-work-progress-tory-split/

    But as I said yeterday, he is being naive. Allow them into Scotland to do the jobs that Scots don't want to do, and they won't do those jobs - they'll just immediately leg it down to London. Much cheaper and safer than paying a snakehead to get them over the Channel.
    Or they just come on a tourist visa.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    ydoethur said:

    matt said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Mango, you're comparing two nations that are entirely different. Germany was a fusion of various states into a larger whole which is why it has such a peppering of large cities all over the place. The USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically.

    What you're talking about is cutting England into pieces, something that was never done to Scotland. And do you propose to give these assemblies powers equal to Holyrood? Will you have Lancastrians taxed differently to Yorkshiremen? And, if not, what's the point? You're creating bureaucracy without authority and relegating English devolution to a lower level than Scotland.

    Mr. Eagles, that's a different path to assemblies or an English Parliament. I do have a problem with the mayoral position being large cities only and delinquent London politicians preventing the desired Yorkshire-wide mayoral post. A Parliament, however, must be for England, to have powers equal to those of Holyrood. Anything else is carving England to pieces or playing with glorified councils.

    I'm sorry the USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically?

    I mean the USA didn't start off as a handful of colonies then evolved into a 50 state federation did it?
    It was an idea that had purchase.
    Too subtle for many.
    It Gadsden conversation going.
    Sewell be next?
  • ydoethur said:

    Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
    Actually it’s 27. 33 were proposed, but six were never ratified.

    The 27th Amendment is priceless - 202 years and a piqued college student required to ratify it!
    Indeed, I was drawing attention that the constitution has been evolving since the day it was created.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    Foxy said:

    speedy2 said:

    Mango said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:
    I saw Parasite the other day. Brilliant movie and great acting, rightly winner.

    Not surprised Donald cites Gone With the Wind as the sort of film that should win.
    He's never seen it, I'll wager.

    He really is an absolute turd.

    And he has his defenders/allies on this site, which makes me shake my head in disbelief.
    For the past 12 years the Oscar for Best Picture is a consolation prize given to the best film that no one has seen.

    Because the best people in the movie industry have moved to Internet TV, there is a real lack of talent that can marry the commercial with the artistic.
    Have you not seen it yet?

    Parasite is very good indeed. Considerably better than most Oscar winners. A pretty good turnout in our multiplex too last Saturday.
    It was a very good film but I'm not sure where this view from some that its one of the decade or something has come from.
  • DavidL said:


    I could go on all morning but obviously this is not of great interest to most readers of the site. In my opinion the main criticism of the SNP is that they have allowed the educational establishment to run riot with very little in the way of accountability or objective assessment. It's typical. Their focus is always on the prize of independence, not on the day to day running of government.

    Would you say that the SCons voting to halt national assessments in P1 (one of their manifesto policies) indicates that their focus is always on being against the prize of independence rather than a credible government in waiting?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
    Actually it’s 27. 33 were proposed, but six were never ratified.

    The 27th Amendment is priceless - 202 years and a piqued college student required to ratify it!
    Indeed, I was drawing attention that the constitution has been evolving since the day it was created.
    Though a considerably larger and more coherent chunk in one go than in our case.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
    Actually it’s 27. 33 were proposed, but six were never ratified.

    The 27th Amendment is priceless - 202 years and a piqued college student required to ratify it!
    Indeed, I was drawing attention that the constitution has been evolving since the day it was created.
    The US Constitution heavily copies Georgian Englands political settlement, only with an elected king. Senators were not elected originally, being appointed by states. Even that most American right to bear arms was lifted from the 1689 Bill of Rights.
  • kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
    Actually it’s 27. 33 were proposed, but six were never ratified.

    The 27th Amendment is priceless - 202 years and a piqued college student required to ratify it!
    Indeed, I was drawing attention that the constitution has been evolving since the day it was created.
    Though a considerably larger and more coherent chunk in one go than in our case.
    I still like the fact prior to the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 the constitutional convention on the Monarch granting election was based on a letter to The Times written by a pseudonym.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascelles_Principles
  • "My takeaway from Wednesday’s hellaciously entertaining Democratic debate is that Sanders is the only candidate telling a successful myth . Bloomberg, Joe Biden, Pete Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar all make good arguments, but they haven’t organized their worldview into a simple compelling myth."

    "These efforts are hampered by men like Sanders and Trump who have never worked within a party or subordinated themselves to a team — men who are one trick ponies. All they do is stand on a podium and bellow."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/opinion/bernie-sanders-win-2020.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    I am going to get burned on this one.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,678
    edited February 2020
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
    Actually it’s 27. 33 were proposed, but six were never ratified.

    The 27th Amendment is priceless - 202 years and a piqued college student required to ratify it!
    Indeed, I was drawing attention that the constitution has been evolving since the day it was created.
    The US Constitution heavily copies Georgian Englands political settlement, only with an elected king. Senators were not elected originally, being appointed by states. Even that most American right to bear arms was lifted from the 1689 Bill of Rights.
    Brexiteers have no understanding about (our) history.

    No wonder they are prepared to see Northern Ireland burn and Scotland secede to ensure they get their precious Brexit.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623
    edited February 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    I think you severely underestimate the extent to which the middle and upper classes will go to give their kids the best education possible.

    This includes sending them abroad - as already happens with the thousands of rich kids from developing countries who are educated in the UK every year.

    Perhaps. But I would be prepared to find out.

    This is an omelette and eggs thing. For me, the omelette is such an attractive prospect that I can happily use up a lot of eggs if needs be.

    You, OTOH, won't use any eggs at all because you don't even want an omelette.
    IMO any proposals based on levelling down, rather than levelling up, are doomed to fail.

    My proposal would be to concentrate many more resources on the bottom 10% that hold everyone else back in mainstream schools. Take them out of the environment where they do nothing but cause disruption, and teach them maths and physics in the context of plumbing and electrics. Maybe even at boarding schools.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    kle4 said:

    Mr. Pioneers, that's absolute nonsense.

    Who are you to say England should cease to be?

    Riddling England with political dividing lines is a mad idea.

    Not least because the idea of returning to what it used to be is barmy - that was 1000 years ago for crying out loud, what it is now has been its identity for a lot longer than anything else. Yes the sheer scale of England relative to the rest causes problems but pretending England isnt a sensible unit is just silly.
    English counties are larger in population than many other countries' local government units. But they've steadily been stripped of powers by governments of both main parties.

    An unwritten constitution and FPTP gives us elected dictatorships for long periods. Thatcher made full use of her powers to abolish the GLC, merely because she disliked left-wing politicians. She also nationalised secondary education, more or less.

    If we starve local government of powers, and of funding, it probably won't end up being much good. It ends up being a vicious circle.
  • And an admirably honest interview with Nandy (she's spot on about the obsession of some members with marginal issues):

    https://labourlist.org/2020/02/interview-lisa-nandy-surprised-by-level-of-misogyny-in-leadership-race/

    Yep, it's very good.

  • ydoethur said:

    Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
    Actually it’s 27. 33 were proposed, but six were never ratified.

    The 27th Amendment is priceless - 202 years and a piqued college student required to ratify it!
    It is interesting that, effectively there hasn't been an amendment to the constitution now since 1971, nearly 40 years. One might wonder if that system is really working well given the difficulties of getting further reforms.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    matt said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Mango, you're comparing two nations that are entirely different. Germany was a fusion of various states into a larger whole which is why it has such a peppering of large cities all over the place. The USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically.

    What you're talking about is cutting England into pieces, something that was never done to Scotland. And do you propose to give these assemblies powers equal to Holyrood? Will you have Lancastrians taxed differently to Yorkshiremen? And, if not, what's the point? You're creating bureaucracy without authority and relegating English devolution to a lower level than Scotland.

    Mr. Eagles, that's a different path to assemblies or an English Parliament. I do have a problem with the mayoral position being large cities only and delinquent London politicians preventing the desired Yorkshire-wide mayoral post. A Parliament, however, must be for England, to have powers equal to those of Holyrood. Anything else is carving England to pieces or playing with glorified councils.

    I'm sorry the USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically?

    I mean the USA didn't start off as a handful of colonies then evolved into a 50 state federation did it?
    It was an idea that had purchase.
    Too subtle for many.
    It Gadsden conversation going.
    Sewell be next?
    It would be a Folly to make any such prediction.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
    Actually it’s 27. 33 were proposed, but six were never ratified.

    The 27th Amendment is priceless - 202 years and a piqued college student required to ratify it!
    It is interesting that, effectively there hasn't been an amendment to the constitution now since 1971, nearly 40 years. One might wonder if that system is really working well given the difficulties of getting further reforms.
    Well some are arguing that the ERA has just been ratified.
  • ydoethur said:

    Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
    Actually it’s 27. 33 were proposed, but six were never ratified.

    The 27th Amendment is priceless - 202 years and a piqued college student required to ratify it!
    It is interesting that, effectively there hasn't been an amendment to the constitution now since 1971, nearly 40 years. One might wonder if that system is really working well given the difficulties of getting further reforms.
    Sunday's thread is a history lesson about one of the amendments, one I think wouldn't pass in current circumstances.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
    Actually it’s 27. 33 were proposed, but six were never ratified.

    The 27th Amendment is priceless - 202 years and a piqued college student required to ratify it!
    Indeed, I was drawing attention that the constitution has been evolving since the day it was created.
    Though a considerably larger and more coherent chunk in one go than in our case.
    I still like the fact prior to the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 the constitutional convention on the Monarch granting election was based on a letter to The Times written by a pseudonym.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascelles_Principles
    As it should be!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
    Actually it’s 27. 33 were proposed, but six were never ratified.

    The 27th Amendment is priceless - 202 years and a piqued college student required to ratify it!
    It is interesting that, effectively there hasn't been an amendment to the constitution now since 1971, nearly 40 years. One might wonder if that system is really working well given the difficulties of getting further reforms.
    Well some are arguing that the ERA has just been ratified.
    They argue wrongly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    In other news from S. Korea...

    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/21/asia-pacific/science-health-asia-pacific/south-korea-coronavirus-daegu-sect/
    South Korea on Friday confirmed 52 more cases of novel coronavirus as the number of infections linked to a religious sect in Daegu spiked, making it the worst-infected country outside China.

    Thirty-nine of the new cases were linked to the Shincheonji Church of Jesus in the southern city of Daegu, the Korean Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (KCDC) said, taking the country’s overall figure to 156.

    More than 80 members of Shincheonji have now been infected, starting with a 61-year-old woman who developed a fever on Feb. 10 but attended at least four church services before being diagnosed.

    The mayor of Daegu — South Korea’s fourth-biggest city, with a population of over 2.5 million — has advised residents to stay indoors....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    edited February 2020
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    matt said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Mango, you're comparing two nations that are entirely different. Germany was a fusion of various states into a larger whole which is why it has such a peppering of large cities all over the place. The USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically.

    What you're talking about is cutting England into pieces, something that was never done to Scotland. And do you propose to give these assemblies powers equal to Holyrood? Will you have Lancastrians taxed differently to Yorkshiremen? And, if not, what's the point? You're creating bureaucracy without authority and relegating English devolution to a lower level than Scotland.

    Mr. Eagles, that's a different path to assemblies or an English Parliament. I do have a problem with the mayoral position being large cities only and delinquent London politicians preventing the desired Yorkshire-wide mayoral post. A Parliament, however, must be for England, to have powers equal to those of Holyrood. Anything else is carving England to pieces or playing with glorified councils.

    I'm sorry the USA was created from the ground up rather than evolving historically?

    I mean the USA didn't start off as a handful of colonies then evolved into a 50 state federation did it?
    It was an idea that had purchase.
    Too subtle for many.
    It Gadsden conversation going.
    Sewell be next?
    It would be a Folly to make any such prediction.
    I Alaska not think of further puns about land purchase.

    Louisiana is distinctly unsympathetic to punning.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,958

    And an admirably honest interview with Nandy (she's spot on about the obsession of some members with marginal issues):

    https://labourlist.org/2020/02/interview-lisa-nandy-surprised-by-level-of-misogyny-in-leadership-race/

    In a wide-ranging interview with LabourList, Nandy also:

    Criticised the conversation about trans rights within the party, which she said should be “much more respectful”


    The same Lisa Nandy who signed a ridiculous pledge saying women should be kicked out for defending sex-based rights (equating this with 'hate') and that there are no material conflicts between women's rights and trans rights? Ludicrous.

    A real shame as she once seemed like the most reasonable and realistic candidate.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623
    edited February 2020

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Eagles, people sat down and hammered out a constitution is what I mean.

    It didn't slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.

    Actually it did, for example the Due Process clause was based on Magna Carta.

    And let us not even discuss the 33 amendments to the constitution that have slowly accrue over centuries of precedent.
    Actually it’s 27. 33 were proposed, but six were never ratified.

    The 27th Amendment is priceless - 202 years and a piqued college student required to ratify it!
    It is interesting that, effectively there hasn't been an amendment to the constitution now since 1971, nearly 40 years. One might wonder if that system is really working well given the difficulties of getting further reforms.
    Sunday's thread is a history lesson about one of the amendments, one I think wouldn't pass in current circumstances.
    “The First Amendment is first for a reason. Second Amendment is just in case the first one doesn't work out.” - Dave Chapelle.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Essexit said:

    And an admirably honest interview with Nandy (she's spot on about the obsession of some members with marginal issues):

    https://labourlist.org/2020/02/interview-lisa-nandy-surprised-by-level-of-misogyny-in-leadership-race/

    In a wide-ranging interview with LabourList, Nandy also:

    Criticised the conversation about trans rights within the party, which she said should be “much more respectful”


    The same Lisa Nandy who signed a ridiculous pledge saying women should be kicked out for defending sex-based rights (equating this with 'hate') and that there are no material conflicts between women's rights and trans rights? Ludicrous.

    A real shame as she once seemed like the most reasonable and realistic candidate.
    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2020/02/19/we-like-you-lisa-nandy-so-why-are-you-throwing-women-under-a-bus/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,228
    And things seem to be not he verge of breaking lose in Japan:
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/21/national/hokkaido-coronavirus/
    ...The two in Hokkaido are students at an elementary school in the town of Nakafurano, according to prefectural officials. One is under 10 years old.

    It is the first time someone under 10 has caught COVID-19 in Japan.

    The younger Hokkaido boy visited a medical institution after developing a fever Saturday. He was hospitalized on Wednesday and is now recovering. His brother developed a fever on Tuesday. He was admitted to a hospital on Wednesday and is also recovering.

    The brothers have no history of travel abroad and the prefectural government is investigating how they became infected....
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited February 2020
    .
    ydoethur said:

    Essexit said:

    And an admirably honest interview with Nandy (she's spot on about the obsession of some members with marginal issues):

    https://labourlist.org/2020/02/interview-lisa-nandy-surprised-by-level-of-misogyny-in-leadership-race/

    In a wide-ranging interview with LabourList, Nandy also:

    Criticised the conversation about trans rights within the party, which she said should be “much more respectful”


    The same Lisa Nandy who signed a ridiculous pledge saying women should be kicked out for defending sex-based rights (equating this with 'hate') and that there are no material conflicts between women's rights and trans rights? Ludicrous.

    A real shame as she once seemed like the most reasonable and realistic candidate.
    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2020/02/19/we-like-you-lisa-nandy-so-why-are-you-throwing-women-under-a-bus/
    How good do the other parties, and other Labour politicians, look by just not talking about trans this, that, and the other? The political equivalent of becoming a better player when you're out the team
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    Have their hopes for the car been extinguished?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    ydoethur said:

    Essexit said:

    And an admirably honest interview with Nandy (she's spot on about the obsession of some members with marginal issues):

    https://labourlist.org/2020/02/interview-lisa-nandy-surprised-by-level-of-misogyny-in-leadership-race/

    In a wide-ranging interview with LabourList, Nandy also:

    Criticised the conversation about trans rights within the party, which she said should be “much more respectful”


    The same Lisa Nandy who signed a ridiculous pledge saying women should be kicked out for defending sex-based rights (equating this with 'hate') and that there are no material conflicts between women's rights and trans rights? Ludicrous.

    A real shame as she once seemed like the most reasonable and realistic candidate.
    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2020/02/19/we-like-you-lisa-nandy-so-why-are-you-throwing-women-under-a-bus/
    Good lord I should not have looked at the comments:

    Alf says:
    February 20, 2020 at 9:27 am
    Lisa is a bit BNP-lite. Starmer is a bit wooden. That’s why I’m backing Becky for a better Britain.


    :D
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623

    Meanwhile, in F1 news:
    ttps://twitter.com/_Ted_Kravitz/status/1230788795747983361

    This is the first year that testing is being officially televised - the takeaways so far are that all the cars are very reliable, the Mercedes is seriously fast and innovative, the Racing Point looks very much like last year’s Mercedes and the Williams might actually be competitive for a change.

    Bottas’ fastest time this morning is 3/10ths away from last year’s race pole time. On day 3 of testing!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    isam said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Essexit said:

    And an admirably honest interview with Nandy (she's spot on about the obsession of some members with marginal issues):

    https://labourlist.org/2020/02/interview-lisa-nandy-surprised-by-level-of-misogyny-in-leadership-race/

    In a wide-ranging interview with LabourList, Nandy also:

    Criticised the conversation about trans rights within the party, which she said should be “much more respectful”


    The same Lisa Nandy who signed a ridiculous pledge saying women should be kicked out for defending sex-based rights (equating this with 'hate') and that there are no material conflicts between women's rights and trans rights? Ludicrous.

    A real shame as she once seemed like the most reasonable and realistic candidate.
    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2020/02/19/we-like-you-lisa-nandy-so-why-are-you-throwing-women-under-a-bus/
    How good do the other parties, and other Labour politicians, look by just not talking about trans this, that, and the other? The political equivalent of becoming a better player when you're out the team
    They are overly focussed on the trans a gender.

    Ah, that really is my coat.

    See you later.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,863

    DavidL said:


    I could go on all morning but obviously this is not of great interest to most readers of the site. In my opinion the main criticism of the SNP is that they have allowed the educational establishment to run riot with very little in the way of accountability or objective assessment. It's typical. Their focus is always on the prize of independence, not on the day to day running of government.

    Would you say that the SCons voting to halt national assessments in P1 (one of their manifesto policies) indicates that their focus is always on being against the prize of independence rather than a credible government in waiting?
    I was appalled by that commitment. It seemed to me to to be totally misconceived. The thread header is about Labour's hopeless position in Scotland but the truth is that the Tories also remain very weak with little strength in depth or quality. At the moment the SNP have far too much of the ground to itself without a meaningful opposition. It's part of the problem. Weak opposition =poor and self indulgent government.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    "My takeaway from Wednesday’s hellaciously entertaining Democratic debate is that Sanders is the only candidate telling a successful myth . Bloomberg, Joe Biden, Pete Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar all make good arguments, but they haven’t organized their worldview into a simple compelling myth."

    "These efforts are hampered by men like Sanders and Trump who have never worked within a party or subordinated themselves to a team — men who are one trick ponies. All they do is stand on a podium and bellow."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/opinion/bernie-sanders-win-2020.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    I am going to get burned on this one.

    Why is My Girl Lizzle for Shizzle left off this list? She actually has delegates.
This discussion has been closed.