Well maybe but the response time between a green deal going collossally belly up and the members actually getting together and reversing some of the worse excesses of it could be extremely slow.
So slow, indeed that by the time they did it 1. huge damage may have been done to the economy and 2. The rest of the world will have learned a salutary lesson and adjusted their policy appropriately.
Maybe so but the principle is a sound one. There may well be plenty of bad decisions made by our government that will take time to reverse.
Indeed but the principle of democracy is that we can at elections reverse any bad decisions, even if it takes time or tough choices to do so.
That's not possible within the confines of the EU.
Because the members of the club agree on a set of rules and members must abide by those rules. You're arguing that competitors who turn up to Wimbledon are forced to play tennis. It is an identity. It doesn't mean we weren't sovereign as we always were.
The issue with the EU is that its not a club where the members agree on a set of rules and then abide with them. If that was the case there would be less of an issue.
The EU has powers to create new rules without any consent from the UK. It does that within the rules the UK agreed to in the past via the Lisbon Treaty etc but the British public never endorsed the Lisbon Treaty.
It's all part of it. We can throw out some stuff and endorse other stuff. We are or were part of the team that created new rules. The Lisbon Treaty was more a fuck up of British politics.
And now we have left. All perfectly democratic and the actions of a sovereign nation. As David Davis so clearly recognised.
I find it sad the pathetic attempts by Leavers to justify their dislike of the EU with claims of it being "undemocratic". Here in Britain we are too much in a glasshouse to be throwing those stones. I wish they would just be honest, and say they don't like having to compromise with foreigners, which while dumb, is the real, core reason for their dislike of the EU.
@Philip_Thompson : Through the council of ministers you numpty, who are either directly and indirectly elected by their countries population. Most of those countries are far more directly democratic then the UK (not difficult). The appointment of her position has no less legitimacy than our system of appointing the PM.
The Council of Ministers is not an institution I respect whatsoever. At what European Election are those Ministers elected?
The Ministers in the Council of Ministers were elected on disparate national issues not on European matters. Comparable to the UK would be for Council chiefs to suddenly have owerwhelmingly significant power over national matters rather than the voters at the national election. No thanks!
Almost no growth at all, France and Italy shrinking. The ECB with the easing taps full on and insisting things are get€ting better. Negative bond yields across a slew of markets.
What's the recipe for recovery? Ursula Von Der Leyen's unscrutinised and unvoted for green deal. A green deal that promises to further penalise the great manufacturing bases of Europe in Germany, France and Italy.
Even the most devoted euro enthusiast would surely concede its not an attractive picture.
Are the taps full on? The ECB's QE programme purchased €14bn of securities last month, against highs of around €85bn. That sounds to me like the taps (while not closed) are very much less open than they were.
Almost no growth at all, France and Italy shrinking. The ECB with the easing taps full on and insisting things are get€ting better. Negative bond yields across a slew of markets.
What's the recipe for recovery? Ursula Von Der Leyen's unscrutinised and unvoted for green deal. A green deal that promises to further penalise the great manufacturing bases of Europe in Germany, France and Italy.
Even the most devoted euro enthusiast would surely concede its not an attractive picture.
Are the taps full on? The ECB's QE programme purchased €14bn of securities last month, against highs of around €85bn. That sounds to me like the taps (while not closed) are very much less open than they were.
I doubt it . They’ll just keep blaming others if it doesn’t turn out the way they expected . Remainers will get blamed for not believing enough . Then the EU will get blamed for not giving the UK the perfect deal.
It will never be anything to do with Leavers .
Tomorrow should be Year Zero. But I wonder how long it will take before the EU, Remainers or anyone insufficiently 'Hard' about Brexit starts getting maligned once again. I'll give it 12 hours.
Yep. There is something really very sick about their celebrations. It is like someone having a party to celebrate a divorce. They are celebrating international failure of British foreign policy; our failure as a nation to cooperate with our nearest neighbours. They should be far more sober about the whole thing. Idiots!
For starters the EU parliament is subservient to the commission in terms of proposing legislation.
Pretty much like our parliament then in normal times. The government controls 99% of the legislative agenda.
The same except when it is not?
Another difference is that the leader of the largest party becomes PM. Why didn't the EPP's candidate become commission president?
Why did the leader of the party who only got 43% of the vote become Prime Minister?
Because he overwhelmingly won a majority at the election.
A majority of seats not votes.
Many would argue that is not democracy.
I know you disagree but you must recognize many people do agree.
Many can be wrong yes.
If 57% had united behind any alternative figure then they would have won a landslide. Instead Johnson's party won over 3.7 million votes more than the next closest rival. His party won more votes than the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties put together.
For starters the EU parliament is subservient to the commission in terms of proposing legislation.
Pretty much like our parliament then in normal times. The government controls 99% of the legislative agenda.
The same except when it is not?
Another difference is that the leader of the largest party becomes PM. Why didn't the EPP's candidate become commission president?
Before the European Elections there was a TV debate between all of the candidates which proved utterly pointless when Von der Leyen was appointed in a back room stitch up instead.
Yep. There is something really very sick about their celebrations. It is like someone having a party to celebrate a divorce. They are celebrating international failure of British foreign policy; our failure as a nation to cooperate with our nearest neighbours. They should be far more sober about the whole thing. Idiots!
We haven't failed. As Topping pointed out earlier we have successfully got a deal the EU is happy to agree.
There is nothing to be unhappy about. This is a great victory, a great success and the start of a new chapter for our future.
Yep. There is something really very sick about their celebrations. It is like someone having a party to celebrate a divorce. They are celebrating international failure of British foreign policy; our failure as a nation to cooperate with our nearest neighbours. They should be far more sober about the whole thing. Idiots!
I know Remainers having mourning parties this evening, including singing Ode to Joy, cakes with EU flags and UK flag being lowered etc.
However what Leavers are planning tonight is nothing on what Nats would have done had they won in 2014
@Philip_Thompson : Through the council of ministers you numpty, who are either directly and indirectly elected by their countries population. Most of those countries are far more directly democratic then the UK (not difficult). The appointment of her position has no less legitimacy than our system of appointing the PM.
The Council of Ministers is not an institution I respect whatsoever. At what European Election are those Ministers elected?
The Ministers in the Council of Ministers were elected on disparate national issues not on European matters. Comparable to the UK would be for Council chiefs to suddenly have owerwhelmingly significant power over national matters rather than the voters at the national election. No thanks!
Facepalm! Because you don't like the idea doesn't make it undemocratic! Your response typifies the unthinking nature of many of you that voted Leave. You have been trying to suggest that the EU structure is undemocratic and as soon as that view is systematically shot down, you say, like a petulant child "well I don't like it"!! FFS!
As I have already said, I would have a little more respect if you were just honest and said I don't like the EU because I have a deep seated irrational prejudice against it, or I don't like foreigners, because at least either of those would have some credibility and possibility of being truthful.
For starters the EU parliament is subservient to the commission in terms of proposing legislation.
Pretty much like our parliament then in normal times. The government controls 99% of the legislative agenda.
The same except when it is not?
Another difference is that the leader of the largest party becomes PM. Why didn't the EPP's candidate become commission president?
Before the European Elections there was a TV debate between all of the candidates which proved utterly pointless when Von der Leyen was appointed in a back room stitch up instead.
Ah, the men in grey suits. That's something I can get behind.
Yep. There is something really very sick about their celebrations. It is like someone having a party to celebrate a divorce. They are celebrating international failure of British foreign policy; our failure as a nation to cooperate with our nearest neighbours. They should be far more sober about the whole thing. Idiots!
We haven't failed. As Topping pointed out earlier we have successfully got a deal the EU is happy to agree.
There is nothing to be unhappy about. This is a great victory, a great success and the start of a new chapter for our future.
Yep. There is something really very sick about their celebrations. It is like someone having a party to celebrate a divorce. They are celebrating international failure of British foreign policy; our failure as a nation to cooperate with our nearest neighbours. They should be far more sober about the whole thing. Idiots!
As a Remainer, I don't for one moment begrudge anyone having a nice party.
But Rotten Borough is right - they own this. I just don't want to hear any more of this stuff about "the Establishment" and "the metropolitan elite". The Leavers are the Establishment now, and every consequence that flows from this, good or bad, is theirs alone.
Us remainers should sit back and leave those spouting about a great future to get on with it. No point fighting lost battles, I will have my sick bucket out tonight as this celebratory air is revolting. I will await the first financial benefit of leaving with interest and hope those who consider themselves left behind enjoy their new sovereignty
@Philip_Thompson : Through the council of ministers you numpty, who are either directly and indirectly elected by their countries population. Most of those countries are far more directly democratic then the UK (not difficult). The appointment of her position has no less legitimacy than our system of appointing the PM.
The Council of Ministers is not an institution I respect whatsoever. At what European Election are those Ministers elected?
The Ministers in the Council of Ministers were elected on disparate national issues not on European matters. Comparable to the UK would be for Council chiefs to suddenly have owerwhelmingly significant power over national matters rather than the voters at the national election. No thanks!
Facepalm! Because you don't like the idea doesn't make it undemocratic! Your response typifies the unthinking nature of many of you that voted Leave. You have been trying to suggest that the EU structure is undemocratic and as soon as that view is systematically shot down, you say, like a petulant child "well I don't like it"!! FFS!
As I have already said, I would have a little more respect if you were just honest and said I don't like the EU because I have a deep seated irrational prejudice against it, or I don't like foreigners, because at least either of those would have some credibility and possibility of being truthful.
You're a muppet. I didn't say its undemocratic because I don't like it, I said its undemocratic because its not elected at an election relevant to its operations.
The UK Parliament makes UK decisions and is made up at a UK election.
The Council of Ministers makes EU decisions but is not made up at an EU election.
I doubt it . They’ll just keep blaming others if it doesn’t turn out the way they expected . Remainers will get blamed for not believing enough . Then the EU will get blamed for not giving the UK the perfect deal.
It will never be anything to do with Leavers .
Tomorrow should be Year Zero. But I wonder how long it will take before the EU, Remainers or anyone insufficiently 'Hard' about Brexit starts getting maligned once again. I'll give it 12 hours.
That long ! Lol
And all this unity guff all of a sudden from Bozo and the rest . I accept Brexit is going to happen and there’s no going back for at least a generation but Leavers need to realize this isn’t just about the EU .
Fundamentally it’s about what sort of country and what sort of values the UK has. The EU and the vote became a proxy for that .
Keir Starmer has a great piece in the Guardian but the next battle will be between more progressive values or the descent into the horrible hate filled Trump nationalism .
Yep. There is something really very sick about their celebrations. It is like someone having a party to celebrate a divorce. They are celebrating international failure of British foreign policy; our failure as a nation to cooperate with our nearest neighbours. They should be far more sober about the whole thing. Idiots!
I know Remainers having mourning parties this evening, including singing Ode to Joy, cakes with EU flags and UK flag being lowered etc.
However what Leavers are planning tonight is nothing on what Nats would have done had they won in 2014
I will be carrying on as normal . Unlike yourself I have other things to do other than put posts on PB (are you here ALL the time - I am not on here often, but every time I do you are here?), or go to parties for political geeks. There is nothing to mourn, though it is sad.
I think you are right to compare Leavers with Nats. Small minded, divisive, tribal, backward thinking and generally politically ignorant. There is a huge similarity. The one thing about such extremists is that they do despise a turncoat even more than normal people. Hope you have a lovely time.
As a democratic ex Remain voter I will be attending the Epping Brexit Party this evening, maybe even with some Priti cake sent along
Did you go to all the nearby Labour Party constituency victory celebrations also? Showing all and sundry your appreciation of this wonderful democratic and sovereign nation we live in?
Edit: and you are not an "ex Remain voter". You are and always will be a Remain voter.
Yep. There is something really very sick about their celebrations. It is like someone having a party to celebrate a divorce. They are celebrating international failure of British foreign policy; our failure as a nation to cooperate with our nearest neighbours. They should be far more sober about the whole thing. Idiots!
We haven't failed. As Topping pointed out earlier we have successfully got a deal the EU is happy to agree.
There is nothing to be unhappy about. This is a great victory, a great success and the start of a new chapter for our future.
Saddam is calling - he wants his foreign minister back.
Plus we have given in on the most preliminary of preliminary issues - the time of our leaving. I hope we have a better team negotiating our trade deal.
Celebrating our escape from the capitalist hegemony. And only a month until the renationalisations start!
Enjoy the bash.
Indeed. Free of EU shackles, Comrade Boris can now unleash the power of the interventionist State to crush privilege and vested interests and to boost the prospects of neglected people in neglected places - and he has a stonking great mandate to do so.
Well maybe but the response time between a green deal going collossally belly up and the members actually getting together and reversing some of the worse excesses of it could be extremely slow.
So slow, indeed that by the time they did it 1. huge damage may have been done to the economy and 2. The rest of the world will have learned a salutary lesson and adjusted their policy appropriately.
Maybe so but the principle is a sound one. There may well be plenty of bad decisions made by our government that will take time to reverse.
Indeed but the principle of democracy is that we can at elections reverse any bad decisions, even if it takes time or tough choices to do so.
That's not possible within the confines of the EU.
Clearly it was. We democratically voted to leave the thing.
A good argument for (eventually) rejoining is that we were able to leave (And the delay in leaving was mostly a UK internal discussion anyway).
For starters the EU parliament is subservient to the commission in terms of proposing legislation.
Pretty much like our parliament then in normal times. The government controls 99% of the legislative agenda.
The same except when it is not?
Another difference is that the leader of the largest party becomes PM. Why didn't the EPP's candidate become commission president?
Before the European Elections there was a TV debate between all of the candidates which proved utterly pointless when Von der Leyen was appointed in a back room stitch up instead.
Ah, the men in grey suits. That's something I can get behind.
You don't get behind the men in grey suits. The men in grey suits get behind you.
Tomorrow should be Year Zero. But I wonder how long it will take before the EU, Remainers or anyone insufficiently 'Hard' about Brexit starts getting maligned once again. I'll give it 12 hours.
I sense it's going to morph into "believing in Britain". And if that gets traction, well you don't need me to elaborate. The tone and quality of the Labour opposition for the next few years is therefore very important.
Almost no growth at all, France and Italy shrinking. The ECB with the easing taps full on and insisting things are get€ting better. Negative bond yields across a slew of markets.
What's the recipe for recovery? Ursula Von Der Leyen's unscrutinised and unvoted for green deal. A green deal that promises to further penalise the great manufacturing bases of Europe in Germany, France and Italy.
Even the most devoted euro enthusiast would surely concede its not an attractive picture.
Are the taps full on? The ECB's QE programme purchased €14bn of securities last month, against highs of around €85bn. That sounds to me like the taps (while not closed) are very much less open than they were.
QE is still ongoing and their deposit rate is -0.5% . . . shows how far we've gone that it could be debated whether the taps are on or not.
I don't disagree that the taps are on. I was merely disputing whether they were "full on". Given QE is running at one-sixth the rate it was in 2017 and 2018, I would argue they are not.
Almost no growth at all, France and Italy shrinking. The ECB with the easing taps full on and insisting things are get€ting better. Negative bond yields across a slew of markets.
What's the recipe for recovery? Ursula Von Der Leyen's unscrutinised and unvoted for green deal. A green deal that promises to further penalise the great manufacturing bases of Europe in Germany, France and Italy.
Even the most devoted euro enthusiast would surely concede its not an attractive picture.
Are the taps full on? The ECB's QE programme purchased €14bn of securities last month, against highs of around €85bn. That sounds to me like the taps (while not closed) are very much less open than they were.
QE is still ongoing and their deposit rate is -0.5% . . . shows how far we've gone that it could be debated whether the taps are on or not.
I don't disagree that the taps are on. I was merely disputing whether they were "full on". Given QE is running at one-sixth the rate it was in 2017 and 2018, I would argue they are not.
Indeed I agree with you, although the deposit rate is lower now than it was then from memory, so its not that far off is it?
Yep. There is something really very sick about their celebrations. It is like someone having a party to celebrate a divorce. They are celebrating international failure of British foreign policy; our failure as a nation to cooperate with our nearest neighbours. They should be far more sober about the whole thing. Idiots!
I know Remainers having mourning parties this evening, including singing Ode to Joy, cakes with EU flags and UK flag being lowered etc.
However what Leavers are planning tonight is nothing on what Nats would have done had they won in 2014
Yeah, we should all use the measured celebrations of the assorted Nazi saluters, flare firers, vandals and rioters of the George Square Unionists as a model. 32 arrests wasn't it?
As a democratic ex Remain voter I will be attending the Epping Brexit Party this evening, maybe even with some Priti cake sent along
Just accepting for a moment - since it's true - my thesis that almost all of us have a mix of Remain and Leave in our essential chemistry, how do you rate yourself right now?
I'll go first to show it's not a trick question. I'm Remain dominant (obvs) but have quite a strong Leave streak. For example, I can laugh at Bernard Manning jokes (some of them), I get irritated sometimes by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, and I wince slightly at overly earnest attempts to encourage diversity in the arts.
All makes for an R/L rating - or identity if you prefer - of 80/20.
As a democratic ex Remain voter I will be attending the Epping Brexit Party this evening, maybe even with some Priti cake sent along
Just accepting for a moment - since it's true - my thesis that almost all of us have a mix of Remain and Leave in our essential chemistry, how do you rate yourself right now?
I'll go first to show it's not a trick question. I'm Remain dominant (obvs) but have quite a strong Leave streak. For example, I can laugh at Bernard Manning jokes (some of them), I get irritated sometimes by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, and I wince slightly at overly earnest attempts to encourage diversity in the arts.
All makes for an R/L rating - or identity if you prefer - of 80/20.
Would you be nearer a 50/50?
I would consider myself 65/35 in favour of leave. I dont reject everything that the EU did, and would quite happy for a deep common market trading relationship, not objecting entirely to some supranational decision making.
@kinabalu That's an interesting one. I'd put myself at about 60 remain - 40 leave. Loads of my friends are like 90% remain+ though, hence feeling like a leaver at times around them.
Yep. There is something really very sick about their celebrations. It is like someone having a party to celebrate a divorce. They are celebrating international failure of British foreign policy; our failure as a nation to cooperate with our nearest neighbours. They should be far more sober about the whole thing. Idiots!
I know Remainers having mourning parties this evening, including singing Ode to Joy, cakes with EU flags and UK flag being lowered etc.
However what Leavers are planning tonight is nothing on what Nats would have done had they won in 2014
I will be carrying on as normal . Unlike yourself I have other things to do other than put posts on PB (are you here ALL the time - I am not on here often, but every time I do you are here?), or go to parties for political geeks. There is nothing to mourn, though it is sad.
I think you are right to compare Leavers with Nats. Small minded, divisive, tribal, backward thinking and generally politically ignorant. There is a huge similarity. The one thing about such extremists is that they do despise a turncoat even more than normal people. Hope you have a lovely time.
You are as big a fanny as him , two absolute half witted ignorant cretins.
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
As a democratic ex Remain voter I will be attending the Epping Brexit Party this evening, maybe even with some Priti cake sent along
Just accepting for a moment - since it's true - my thesis that almost all of us have a mix of Remain and Leave in our essential chemistry, how do you rate yourself right now?
I'll go first to show it's not a trick question. I'm Remain dominant (obvs) but have quite a strong Leave streak. For example, I can laugh at Bernard Manning jokes (some of them), I get irritated sometimes by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, and I wince slightly at overly earnest attempts to encourage diversity in the arts.
All makes for an R/L rating - or identity if you prefer - of 80/20.
Would you be nearer a 50/50?
I would consider myself 65/35 in favour of leave. I dont reject everything that the EU did, and would quite happy for a deep common market trading relationship, not objecting entirely to some supranational decision making.
60/40 for leave. Plenty right with it, plenty wrong with it.
Biggest mistake: not having referendums in this country on the big calls; second biggest, the Euro - it isn't credible to say this is not a state like project once a joint currency is in place; third biggest: not making a decent offer to Cameron; fourth biggest: allowing second referendums when they got the 'wrong' answer. This spoke volumes directly to those with independent minded democratic ideas and was unanswerable.
Picking up on some earlier comments, I see a commonality between Prince Charles and the EU. Both have suffered persistent low level negative press coverage over a number of years, if not decades.
@HYUFD thoughtfully re-hashes a poll showing more people prefer William & Kate (very much a double act) as our next monarch to Charles.
That isn't of any relevance - on the sad passing of his mother (which is, I hope, a fair way off yet) Charles will become King and rightly so. The "problem", apart from the Diana business, which is ancient history, is he has dared to express opinions and opinions not generally favoured by some portions of the Conservative media.
He has opinions - the last I heard we lived in a plural democracy. However, I understand the rationale behind the notion the Head of State shouldn't have an opinion - if you are or purport to be a unifying figure the one way to dispel that notion would be to say something with which x% of your population won't agree.
Nonetheless, I'm not bothered by his opinions and I think he will be an excellent king. Age shouldn't be an issue - Trump is two and a half years older. If our notion of a monarch is someone who never says anything, fine. I quite like the idea of a monarch who can and does contribute directly to a national debate on key matters such as the environment - we should welcome all perspectives.
I would consider myself 65/35 in favour of leave. I dont reject everything that the EU did, and would quite happy for a deep common market trading relationship, not objecting entirely to some supranational decision making.
OK, that's interesting - and I'm sure true - and I don't reject it at all. However, you're intellectualizing it, whereas the Rating is about the gut. Or let's say the heart since "gut" is not a pleasant notion. So we are looking for these purposes at values, emotions, prejudices, likes and dislikes, all the things which together make a person what they are. It's an 'Identity' Rating measured in R/L ratio units, running from 99/1 (Clegg?) to 1/99 (Redwood?) - 100 either way possible in theory but not in practice since people are not one dimensional.
Almost no growth at all, France and Italy shrinking. The ECB with the easing taps full on and insisting things are get€ting better. Negative bond yields across a slew of markets.
What's the recipe for recovery? Ursula Von Der Leyen's unscrutinised and unvoted for green deal. A green deal that promises to further penalise the great manufacturing bases of Europe in Germany, France and Italy.
Even the most devoted euro enthusiast would surely concede its not an attractive picture.
Are the taps full on? The ECB's QE programme purchased €14bn of securities last month, against highs of around €85bn. That sounds to me like the taps (while not closed) are very much less open than they were.
QE is still ongoing and their deposit rate is -0.5% . . . shows how far we've gone that it could be debated whether the taps are on or not.
I don't disagree that the taps are on. I was merely disputing whether they were "full on". Given QE is running at one-sixth the rate it was in 2017 and 2018, I would argue they are not.
Indeed I agree with you, although the deposit rate is lower now than it was then from memory, so its not that far off is it?
The deposit rate is not the key interest rate, though.
It is the rate the ECB pays banks who deposit funds with them. The reason it's at -0.5% is because the ECB wants to discourage banks from hoarding deposits and then just dumping them on the ECB. (The theory being that banks will be forced to lend to people and businesses if they are guaranteed to lose money if they deposit it with the ECB.)
As an aside, when the next crisis hits, then that -0.5% rate will not discourage banks at all - they'll all send their money straight to the ECB, and take the loss.
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
Not a good start - and it shows the relative attitudes of Remainers and Leavers.
"Rieu’s singles chart entry has occurred as people on the Remain side of Brexit are buying and streaming ‘Ode to Joy’. A version of the piece is the organisational anthem of the European Union, and with it Remainers are sending a political message ahead of the UK leaving the EU this Friday (31 January).
People on the Leave side of Brexit are similarly buying and streaming ‘17 Million F***-Offs’ by Dominic Frisby to also send a political message ahead of Friday."
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
I agree, however asking questions about what happens next and pointing out potential disadvantages should not be considered “promoting despair”.
The debate is now about real decisions and real choices.
As a democratic ex Remain voter I will be attending the Epping Brexit Party this evening, maybe even with some Priti cake sent along
Just accepting for a moment - since it's true - my thesis that almost all of us have a mix of Remain and Leave in our essential chemistry, how do you rate yourself right now?
I'll go first to show it's not a trick question. I'm Remain dominant (obvs) but have quite a strong Leave streak. For example, I can laugh at Bernard Manning jokes (some of them), I get irritated sometimes by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, and I wince slightly at overly earnest attempts to encourage diversity in the arts.
All makes for an R/L rating - or identity if you prefer - of 80/20.
Would you be nearer a 50/50?
I would consider myself 65/35 in favour of leave. I dont reject everything that the EU did, and would quite happy for a deep common market trading relationship, not objecting entirely to some supranational decision making.
60/40 for leave. Plenty right with it, plenty wrong with it.
Biggest mistake: not having referendums in this country on the big calls; second biggest, the Euro - it isn't credible to say this is not a state like project once a joint currency is in place; third biggest: not making a decent offer to Cameron; fourth biggest: allowing second referendums when they got the 'wrong' answer. This spoke volumes directly to those with independent minded democratic ideas and was unanswerable.
Fundamentally, to make the Euro work, you need to have fiscal transfers in place. (Just as in the UK, if one region is struggling with the strength of the pound, they will pay fewer taxes to the centre, and collect more benefits.)
But the EU isn't setup like that. And there's an awful lot of resistance from the Euro winners (like Germany) to subsidising the Euro losers. The irony is, of course, that if Greece and Italy decide that being in the Euro doesn't work for them, and the whole thing collapses, then it will be Germany who is hurt the most.
@kinabalu That's an interesting one. I'd put myself at about 60 remain - 40 leave. Loads of my friends are like 90% remain+ though, hence feeling like a leaver at times around them.
Right you are. Well that is very close indeed to where I would have pegged you based on your PB posting record.
What a relief after the great @Wulfrun_Phil debacle!
Almost no growth at all, France and Italy shrinking. The ECB with the easing taps full on and insisting things are get€ting better. Negative bond yields across a slew of markets.
What's the recipe for recovery? Ursula Von Der Leyen's unscrutinised and unvoted for green deal. A green deal that promises to further penalise the great manufacturing bases of Europe in Germany, France and Italy.
Even the most devoted euro enthusiast would surely concede its not an attractive picture.
Are the taps full on? The ECB's QE programme purchased €14bn of securities last month, against highs of around €85bn. That sounds to me like the taps (while not closed) are very much less open than they were.
QE is still ongoing and their deposit rate is -0.5% . . . shows how far we've gone that it could be debated whether the taps are on or not.
I don't disagree that the taps are on. I was merely disputing whether they were "full on". Given QE is running at one-sixth the rate it was in 2017 and 2018, I would argue they are not.
Indeed I agree with you, although the deposit rate is lower now than it was then from memory, so its not that far off is it?
The deposit rate is not the key interest rate, though.
It is the rate the ECB pays banks who deposit funds with them. The reason it's at -0.5% is because the ECB wants to discourage banks from hoarding deposits and then just dumping them on the ECB. (The theory being that banks will be forced to lend to people and businesses if they are guaranteed to lose money if they deposit it with the ECB.)
As an aside, when the next crisis hits, then that -0.5% rate will not discourage banks at all - they'll all send their money straight to the ECB, and take the loss.
Indeed though something I've never understood and perhaps you can explain it to me . . . why do the banks need to deposit funds with anyone? Why don't the banks just hold onto the funds themselves or can they not do that?
I know banks used to deposit funds overnight to make money on the funds based on whatever rate was going but if there's a negative rate what's to stop the bank just holding the funds themself? Or is that not possible for some technical reason?
I would consider myself 65/35 in favour of leave. I dont reject everything that the EU did, and would quite happy for a deep common market trading relationship, not objecting entirely to some supranational decision making.
OK, that's interesting - and I'm sure true - and I don't reject it at all. However, you're intellectualizing it, whereas the Rating is about the gut. Or let's say the heart since "gut" is not a pleasant notion. So we are looking for these purposes at values, emotions, prejudices, likes and dislikes, all the things which together make a person what they are. It's an 'Identity' Rating measured in R/L ratio units, running from 99/1 (Clegg?) to 1/99 (Redwood?) - 100 either way possible in theory but not in practice since people are not one dimensional.
The only thing that bothered me about EU membership was the chance for rich people and big corps to play EU immigrants and the British poor off against each other while earning out of them. So I guess I’d be Remain over Leave despite being all out for leave.
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
Not a good start - and it shows the relative attitudes of Remainers and Leavers.
"Rieu’s singles chart entry has occurred as people on the Remain side of Brexit are buying and streaming ‘Ode to Joy’. A version of the piece is the organisational anthem of the European Union, and with it Remainers are sending a political message ahead of the UK leaving the EU this Friday (31 January).
People on the Leave side of Brexit are similarly buying and streaming ‘17 Million F***-Offs’ by Dominic Frisby to also send a political message ahead of Friday."
It will pass as we move on and, while some will never be reconciled, the vast majority will accept we are out and just want to see policies on the NHS, social care, policing, and infrastucture actually start taking shape in their lives
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
I agree, however asking questions about what happens next and pointing out potential disadvantages should not be considered “promoting despair”.
The debate is now about real decisions and real choices.
Absolutely, but the throw away insults and aggressive nature of the debate needs dialling down and by both sides
Regarding newspaper front pages, presumably tomorrow we'll get a glut of 'We're Free! We're Free!' efforts with Boris's face superimposed on a bust of Churchill. (I just want it to end!)
Yep. There is something really very sick about their celebrations. It is like someone having a party to celebrate a divorce. They are celebrating international failure of British foreign policy; our failure as a nation to cooperate with our nearest neighbours. They should be far more sober about the whole thing. Idiots!
I know Remainers having mourning parties this evening, including singing Ode to Joy, cakes with EU flags and UK flag being lowered etc.
However what Leavers are planning tonight is nothing on what Nats would have done had they won in 2014
Remainers have Beethoven; Leavers have Andrea Jenkyns and ex member of a Taiwanese anarchopop group. No contest there
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
Not a good start - and it shows the relative attitudes of Remainers and Leavers.
"Rieu’s singles chart entry has occurred as people on the Remain side of Brexit are buying and streaming ‘Ode to Joy’. A version of the piece is the organisational anthem of the European Union, and with it Remainers are sending a political message ahead of the UK leaving the EU this Friday (31 January).
People on the Leave side of Brexit are similarly buying and streaming ‘17 Million F***-Offs’ by Dominic Frisby to also send a political message ahead of Friday."
I must admit that being a remain ponce, the Rieu element is giving me a painful moment over my loyalties.
So it's an "historic" day (apparently) though we remain full members of the EU until at least 31/12/20 so, rather like the referendum itself back in 2016, everything changed and nothing changed at the same time.
I voted LEAVE then and I still think we are better off outside the political structure that the EU has become. I note we joined at the same time as Denmark and Ireland and the three countries have all had very different experiences.
The Irish have embraced the EU pretty much completely while the Danes still, use the Krone albeit tied to the Euro via ERM 2 and rejected joining the Eurozone in 2000.
I'm no fan of the Single Market which has done more harm than good in my view.I note the Mail offering a kind word to the Europeans but question the notions of us being "free" and "independent" after 47 years.
I've never felt my freedom constrained at any time during EU membership but accept the notion we should be able to make our own laws though lawmakers should always consider the impact of those laws on others.
As for the "independent" bit we've not been a truly independent state since 1914 and possibly before that. We have ceded large parts of our foreign and defence sovereignty voluntarily to NATO and that has been spectacularly successful. We are part of any number of global treaties and agreements and will continue so to be.
The problem is the only two coherent positions are either fully in (Euro, Schengen) or fully out. Our mean-spirited, opt-out riddled, rebate obsessed lacklustre membership served only to antagonise everyone and satisfy no one. Rather like pretending to be "tough" on crime, there were always votes to be had from pretending to be "tough" with the Europeans no matter the compromises agreed behind closed doors.
Will we ever rejoin the EU? I'd like to think a pragmatic future Government would decide that if it were incontrovertibly in the country's best interests to rejoin, we would rejoin. Those circumstances may arise in 10 years, 50 years or never but we shouldn't allow ideology to over-ride the national interest.
The only thing that bothered me about EU membership was the chance for rich people and big corps to play EU immigrants and the British poor off against each other while earning out of them. So I guess I’d be Remain over Leave despite being all out for leave.
Ooo that is VERY interesting. Staunch Leave voter but an R/L score of over 50. That has caused a problem. Fed it in and did not get a proper exact Rating for you. Got smoke and a whirring noise.
We need a follow up. This is mainly about "values" and you have a lot of Leave in there, don't you? You know, "PC gorn mad" and all that stuff, for example.
Or have I read yet another poster all wrong after the deeply embarrassing @Wulfrun_Phil affair?
Indeed though something I've never understood and perhaps you can explain it to me . . . why do the banks need to deposit funds with anyone? Why don't the banks just hold onto the funds themselves or can they not do that?
I know banks used to deposit funds overnight to make money on the funds based on whatever rate was going but if there's a negative rate what's to stop the bank just holding the funds themself? Or is that not possible for some technical reason?
That's an excellent question.
And the answer lies in the quiet Swiss town of Basel, where the Bank of International Settlements lives. And their economists created a concept called Risk Weighted Assets. The idea is that the assets a bank owned would be weighted according to their riskiness. So, an unsecured loan to a Beirut laundromat would have a risk weighting of five. By contrast, your mortgage would probably rate a two. Cash is one, while money deposited with the Central Bank was considered risk free.
Investors look at bank solvency by comparing the amount of equity* (assets less liability) to the risk weighted assets. So, a really well capitalised bank like HSBC might have capital of 20% of risk weighted assets.
A bank will always prefer to deposit assets with the Central Bank over leaving it in cash, because (for reasons I don't really understand), cash is considered a riskier asset than a deposit with a central bank. And all banks try and minimise their risk weighted assets number.
* And some pseudo equity stuff, but that's not important right now.
I would consider myself 65/35 in favour of leave. I dont reject everything that the EU did, and would quite happy for a deep common market trading relationship, not objecting entirely to some supranational decision making.
OK, that's interesting - and I'm sure true - and I don't reject it at all. However, you're intellectualizing it, whereas the Rating is about the gut. Or let's say the heart since "gut" is not a pleasant notion. So we are looking for these purposes at values, emotions, prejudices, likes and dislikes, all the things which together make a person what they are. It's an 'Identity' Rating measured in R/L ratio units, running from 99/1 (Clegg?) to 1/99 (Redwood?) - 100 either way possible in theory but not in practice since people are not one dimensional.
Funnily enough, I worry about the long term viability of the European Union.
Despite that, the UK's decision isn unlikely to be a success in my judgment. There are too many false premises behind it.
So it's an "historic" day (apparently) though we remain full members of the EU until at least 31/12/20 so, rather like the referendum itself back in 2016, everything changed and nothing changed at the same time.
I voted LEAVE then and I still think we are better off outside the political structure that the EU has become. I note we joined at the same time as Denmark and Ireland and the three countries have all had very different experiences.
The Irish have embraced the EU pretty much completely while the Danes still, use the Krone albeit tied to the Euro via ERM 2 and rejected joining the Eurozone in 2000.
I'm no fan of the Single Market which has done more harm than good in my view.I note the Mail offering a kind word to the Europeans but question the notions of us being "free" and "independent" after 47 years.
I've never felt my freedom constrained at any time during EU membership but accept the notion we should be able to make our own laws though lawmakers should always consider the impact of those laws on others.
As for the "independent" bit we've not been a truly independent state since 1914 and possibly before that. We have ceded large parts of our foreign and defence sovereignty voluntarily to NATO and that has been spectacularly successful. We are part of any number of global treaties and agreements and will continue so to be.
The problem is the only two coherent positions are either fully in (Euro, Schengen) or fully out. Our mean-spirited, opt-out riddled, rebate obsessed lacklustre membership served only to antagonise everyone and satisfy no one. Rather like pretending to be "tough" on crime, there were always votes to be had from pretending to be "tough" with the Europeans no matter the compromises agreed behind closed doors.
Will we ever rejoin the EU? I'd like to think a pragmatic future Government would decide that if it were incontrovertibly in the country's best interests to rejoin, we would rejoin. Those circumstances may arise in 10 years, 50 years or never but we shouldn't allow ideology to over-ride the national interest.
Not full members at all - we now have no say on EU decisions whatsoever. So we remain a vassal state for a year with the UK integrity much compromised because of the Boris border with Northern Ireland.
Indeed though something I've never understood and perhaps you can explain it to me . . . why do the banks need to deposit funds with anyone? Why don't the banks just hold onto the funds themselves or can they not do that?
I know banks used to deposit funds overnight to make money on the funds based on whatever rate was going but if there's a negative rate what's to stop the bank just holding the funds themself? Or is that not possible for some technical reason?
That's an excellent question.
And the answer lies in the quiet Swiss town of Basel, where the Bank of International Settlements lives. And their economists created a concept called Risk Weighted Assets. The idea is that the assets a bank owned would be weighted according to their riskiness. So, an unsecured loan to a Beirut laundromat would have a risk weighting of five. By contrast, your mortgage would probably rate a two. Cash is one, while money deposited with the Central Bank was considered risk free.
Investors look at bank solvency by comparing the amount of equity* (assets less liability) to the risk weighted assets. So, a really well capitalised bank like HSBC might have capital of 20% of risk weighted assets.
A bank will always prefer to deposit assets with the Central Bank over leaving it in cash, because (for reasons I don't really understand), cash is considered a riskier asset than a deposit with a central bank. And all banks try and minimise their risk weighted assets number.
* And some pseudo equity stuff, but that's not important right now.
Thanks. Does seem bizarre that cash* is considered riskier than deposits.
* Given most transfers now are electronic, we don't mean physical paper or coins do we? Cash that can be robbed I can certainly see as riskier than deposits.
So it's an "historic" day (apparently) though we remain full members of the EU until at least 31/12/20 so, rather like the referendum itself back in 2016, everything changed and nothing changed at the same time.
I voted LEAVE then and I still think we are better off outside the political structure that the EU has become. I note we joined at the same time as Denmark and Ireland and the three countries have all had very different experiences.
The Irish have embraced the EU pretty much completely while the Danes still, use the Krone albeit tied to the Euro via ERM 2 and rejected joining the Eurozone in 2000.
I'm no fan of the Single Market which has done more harm than good in my view.I note the Mail offering a kind word to the Europeans but question the notions of us being "free" and "independent" after 47 years.
I've never felt my freedom constrained at any time during EU membership but accept the notion we should be able to make our own laws though lawmakers should always consider the impact of those laws on others.
As for the "independent" bit we've not been a truly independent state since 1914 and possibly before that. We have ceded large parts of our foreign and defence sovereignty voluntarily to NATO and that has been spectacularly successful. We are part of any number of global treaties and agreements and will continue so to be.
The problem is the only two coherent positions are either fully in (Euro, Schengen) or fully out. Our mean-spirited, opt-out riddled, rebate obsessed lacklustre membership served only to antagonise everyone and satisfy no one. Rather like pretending to be "tough" on crime, there were always votes to be had from pretending to be "tough" with the Europeans no matter the compromises agreed behind closed doors.
Will we ever rejoin the EU? I'd like to think a pragmatic future Government would decide that if it were incontrovertibly in the country's best interests to rejoin, we would rejoin. Those circumstances may arise in 10 years, 50 years or never but we shouldn't allow ideology to over-ride the national interest.
Not full members at all - we now have no say on EU decisions whatsoever. So we remain a vassal state for a year with the UK integrity much compromised because of the Boris border with Northern Ireland.
Ah but Boris has assured us that there is no border with Northern Ireland.
So it's an "historic" day (apparently) though we remain full members of the EU until at least 31/12/20 so, rather like the referendum itself back in 2016, everything changed and nothing changed at the same time.
I voted LEAVE then and I still think we are better off outside the political structure that the EU has become. I note we joined at the same time as Denmark and Ireland and the three countries have all had very different experiences.
The Irish have embraced the EU pretty much completely while the Danes still, use the Krone albeit tied to the Euro via ERM 2 and rejected joining the Eurozone in 2000.
I'm no fan of the Single Market which has done more harm than good in my view.I note the Mail offering a kind word to the Europeans but question the notions of us being "free" and "independent" after 47 years.
I've never felt my freedom constrained at any time during EU membership but accept the notion we should be able to make our own laws though lawmakers should always consider the impact of those laws on others.
As for the "independent" bit we've not been a truly independent state since 1914 and possibly before that. We have ceded large parts of our foreign and defence sovereignty voluntarily to NATO and that has been spectacularly successful. We are part of any number of global treaties and agreements and will continue so to be.
The problem is the only two coherent positions are either fully in (Euro, Schengen) or fully out. Our mean-spirited, opt-out riddled, rebate obsessed lacklustre membership served only to antagonise everyone and satisfy no one. Rather like pretending to be "tough" on crime, there were always votes to be had from pretending to be "tough" with the Europeans no matter the compromises agreed behind closed doors.
Will we ever rejoin the EU? I'd like to think a pragmatic future Government would decide that if it were incontrovertibly in the country's best interests to rejoin, we would rejoin. Those circumstances may arise in 10 years, 50 years or never but we shouldn't allow ideology to over-ride the national interest.
Not full members at all - we now have no say on EU decisions whatsoever. So we remain a vassal state for a year with the UK integrity much compromised because of the Boris border with Northern Ireland.
Ah but Boris has assured us that there is no border with Northern Ireland.
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
Not a good start - and it shows the relative attitudes of Remainers and Leavers.
"Rieu’s singles chart entry has occurred as people on the Remain side of Brexit are buying and streaming ‘Ode to Joy’. A version of the piece is the organisational anthem of the European Union, and with it Remainers are sending a political message ahead of the UK leaving the EU this Friday (31 January).
People on the Leave side of Brexit are similarly buying and streaming ‘17 Million F***-Offs’ by Dominic Frisby to also send a political message ahead of Friday."
I must admit that being a remain ponce, the Rieu element is giving me a painful moment over my loyalties.
The only thing that bothered me about EU membership was the chance for rich people and big corps to play EU immigrants and the British poor off against each other while earning out of them. So I guess I’d be Remain over Leave despite being all out for leave.
Ooo that is VERY interesting. Staunch Leave voter but an R/L score of over 50. That has caused a problem. Fed it in and did not get a proper exact Rating for you. Got smoke and a whirring noise.
We need a follow up. This is mainly about "values" and you have a lot of Leave in there, don't you? You know, "PC gorn mad" and all that stuff, for example.
Or have I read yet another poster all wrong after the deeply embarrassing @Wulfrun_Phil affair?
Haha funny post!
Oh I don’t know. Self evaluation is excruciatingly vain, like lengthy twitter bios; you’re just telling people what you’d like them to think of you, so I’d best retreat
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
Not a good start - and it shows the relative attitudes of Remainers and Leavers.
"Rieu’s singles chart entry has occurred as people on the Remain side of Brexit are buying and streaming ‘Ode to Joy’. A version of the piece is the organisational anthem of the European Union, and with it Remainers are sending a political message ahead of the UK leaving the EU this Friday (31 January).
People on the Leave side of Brexit are similarly buying and streaming ‘17 Million F***-Offs’ by Dominic Frisby to also send a political message ahead of Friday."
It will pass as we move on and, while some will never be reconciled, the vast majority will accept we are out and just want to see policies on the NHS, social care, policing, and infrastucture actually start taking shape in their lives
But what if those in the EU move ahead faster than we do and the £ sinks still further. This is what economists predict (.. and yes I know, who needs experts?).
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
Not a good start - and it shows the relative attitudes of Remainers and Leavers.
"Rieu’s singles chart entry has occurred as people on the Remain side of Brexit are buying and streaming ‘Ode to Joy’. A version of the piece is the organisational anthem of the European Union, and with it Remainers are sending a political message ahead of the UK leaving the EU this Friday (31 January).
People on the Leave side of Brexit are similarly buying and streaming ‘17 Million F***-Offs’ by Dominic Frisby to also send a political message ahead of Friday."
I must admit that being a remain ponce, the Rieu element is giving me a painful moment over my loyalties.
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
Not a good start - and it shows the relative attitudes of Remainers and Leavers.
"Rieu’s singles chart entry has occurred as people on the Remain side of Brexit are buying and streaming ‘Ode to Joy’. A version of the piece is the organisational anthem of the European Union, and with it Remainers are sending a political message ahead of the UK leaving the EU this Friday (31 January).
People on the Leave side of Brexit are similarly buying and streaming ‘17 Million F***-Offs’ by Dominic Frisby to also send a political message ahead of Friday."
It will pass as we move on and, while some will never be reconciled, the vast majority will accept we are out and just want to see policies on the NHS, social care, policing, and infrastucture actually start taking shape in their lives
But what if those in the EU move ahead faster than we do and the £ sinks still further. This is what economists predict (.. and yes I know, who needs experts?).
The £ sinking is meaningless waffle. Growth, inflation, balance of payments etc all matter far more.
The economists don't currently expect the EU to move ahead faster, I think you need to check the record. The IMF actually expects the UK to outgrow the Eurozone both this year and next year I do believe.
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
Not a good start - and it shows the relative attitudes of Remainers and Leavers.
"Rieu’s singles chart entry has occurred as people on the Remain side of Brexit are buying and streaming ‘Ode to Joy’. A version of the piece is the organisational anthem of the European Union, and with it Remainers are sending a political message ahead of the UK leaving the EU this Friday (31 January).
People on the Leave side of Brexit are similarly buying and streaming ‘17 Million F***-Offs’ by Dominic Frisby to also send a political message ahead of Friday."
It will pass as we move on and, while some will never be reconciled, the vast majority will accept we are out and just want to see policies on the NHS, social care, policing, and infrastucture actually start taking shape in their lives
Brexit controversy will go away if it works. If it doesn't it won't.
Either way, what is true is that the current administration, Brexiteers and Eurosceptics in general deserve the same respect, support and constructive advice they gave the old regime.
The Guardian's headline really gets my goat. Great Britain is not a small island. There are hundreds of thousands of islands in the world, and Great Britain is the eighth biggest island in the world. I think it is the fifth biggest by population. Perhaps the second biggets by economy. Calling Great Britain a small island is geographically illiterate.
Perhaps what they mean is 'small country'. Which is also pretty debatable if you want to look beyond land area, where we are certainly mid-table at best, but not as obviously wrong as 'small island'.
Funnily enough, I worry about the long term viability of the European Union.
Despite that, the UK's decision isn unlikely to be a success in my judgment. There are too many false premises behind it.
This is going to sound like the most insufferable virtue signalling but one of the biggest reasons for me voting R was not to do with our direct national interest. It was that I thought - and think - the UK leaving would make the EU more likely to collapse, and as a consequence we could see a co-operative, peaceful bloc replaced by a fractured group of nations all aggressively competing to "make themselves great again".
The Guardian's headline really gets my goat. Great Britain is not a small island. There are hundreds of thousands of islands in the world, and Great Britain is the eighth biggest island in the world. I think it is the fifth biggest by population. Perhaps the second biggets by economy. Calling Great Britain a small island is geographically illiterate.
Perhaps what they mean is 'small country'. Which is also pretty debatable if you want to look beyond land area, where we are certainly mid-table at best, but not as obviously wrong as 'small island'.
The Guardian's headline really gets my goat. Great Britain is not a small island. There are hundreds of thousands of islands in the world, and Great Britain is the eighth biggest island in the world. I think it is the fifth biggest by population. Perhaps the second biggets by economy. Calling Great Britain a small island is geographically illiterate.
Perhaps what they mean is 'small country'. Which is also pretty debatable if you want to look beyond land area, where we are certainly mid-table at best, but not as obviously wrong as 'small island'.
The Guardian's headline really gets my goat. Great Britain is not a small island. There are hundreds of thousands of islands in the world, and Great Britain is the eighth biggest island in the world. I think it is the fifth biggest by population. Perhaps the second biggets by economy. Calling Great Britain a small island is geographically illiterate.
Perhaps what they mean is 'small country'. Which is also pretty debatable if you want to look beyond land area, where we are certainly mid-table at best, but not as obviously wrong as 'small island'.
Why is Australia not considered an island?
I believe because it's on it's own tectonic plate.
Funnily enough, I worry about the long term viability of the European Union.
Despite that, the UK's decision isn unlikely to be a success in my judgment. There are too many false premises behind it.
This is going to sound like the most insufferable virtue signalling but one of the biggest reasons for me voting R was not to do with our direct national interest. It was that I thought - and think - the UK leaving would make the EU more likely to collapse, and as a consequence we could see a co-operative peaceful bloc replaced by a fractured group of nations all aggressively competing to "make themselves great again".
The Guardian's headline really gets my goat. Great Britain is not a small island. There are hundreds of thousands of islands in the world, and Great Britain is the eighth biggest island in the world. I think it is the fifth biggest by population. Perhaps the second biggets by economy. Calling Great Britain a small island is geographically illiterate.
Perhaps what they mean is 'small country'. Which is also pretty debatable if you want to look beyond land area, where we are certainly mid-table at best, but not as obviously wrong as 'small island'.
Why is Australia not considered an island?
I believe because it's on it's own tectonic plate.
The Guardian's headline really gets my goat. Great Britain is not a small island. There are hundreds of thousands of islands in the world, and Great Britain is the eighth biggest island in the world. I think it is the fifth biggest by population. Perhaps the second biggets by economy. Calling Great Britain a small island is geographically illiterate.
Perhaps what they mean is 'small country'. Which is also pretty debatable if you want to look beyond land area, where we are certainly mid-table at best, but not as obviously wrong as 'small island'.
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
Not a good start - and it shows the relative attitudes of Remainers and Leavers.
"Rieu’s singles chart entry has occurred as people on the Remain side of Brexit are buying and streaming ‘Ode to Joy’. A version of the piece is the organisational anthem of the European Union, and with it Remainers are sending a political message ahead of the UK leaving the EU this Friday (31 January).
People on the Leave side of Brexit are similarly buying and streaming ‘17 Million F***-Offs’ by Dominic Frisby to also send a political message ahead of Friday."
It will pass as we move on and, while some will never be reconciled, the vast majority will accept we are out and just want to see policies on the NHS, social care, policing, and infrastucture actually start taking shape in their lives
But what if those in the EU move ahead faster than we do and the £ sinks still further. This is what economists predict (.. and yes I know, who needs experts?).
I think it is unlikely, especially in view of this weeks IMF report that confirms UK will outgrow the EU over the next two years
Of course it could happen but being downbeat and pessimistic was one of the reasons labour crashed to their defeat. The one thing Boris does seem to achieve, with considerable success, is to dismiss the doomsters and replace it with his constant optimism and can do attitude
The Guardian's headline really gets my goat. Great Britain is not a small island. There are hundreds of thousands of islands in the world, and Great Britain is the eighth biggest island in the world. I think it is the fifth biggest by population. Perhaps the second biggets by economy. Calling Great Britain a small island is geographically illiterate.
Perhaps what they mean is 'small country'. Which is also pretty debatable if you want to look beyond land area, where we are certainly mid-table at best, but not as obviously wrong as 'small island'.
Why is Australia not considered an island?
I believe because it's on it's own tectonic plate.
I was astonished to learn yesterday what, after mainland Britain and the island of Ireland, the most populated island in the British isles is (supposedly). Any ideas anyone?
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
Not a good start - and it shows the relative attitudes of Remainers and Leavers.
"Rieu’s singles chart entry has occurred as people on the Remain side of Brexit are buying and streaming ‘Ode to Joy’. A version of the piece is the organisational anthem of the European Union, and with it Remainers are sending a political message ahead of the UK leaving the EU this Friday (31 January).
People on the Leave side of Brexit are similarly buying and streaming ‘17 Million F***-Offs’ by Dominic Frisby to also send a political message ahead of Friday."
It will pass as we move on and, while some will never be reconciled, the vast majority will accept we are out and just want to see policies on the NHS, social care, policing, and infrastucture actually start taking shape in their lives
But what if those in the EU move ahead faster than we do and the £ sinks still further. This is what economists predict (.. and yes I know, who needs experts?).
I think it is unlikely, especially in view of this weeks IMF report that confirms UK will outgrow the EU over the next two years
Of course it could happen but being downbeat and pessimistic was one of the reasons labour crashed to their defeat. The one thing Boris does seem to achieve, with considerable success, is to dismiss the doomsters and replace it with his constant optimism and can do attitude
I don't see this as a day for celebration. It is a day of implementation of a difficult and vexed decision which has caused considerable division in the country. Triumphalism would be counterproductive. The object must be to find common ground as quickly as possible and move on.
One of the key tests of this will be the attitude of remainers to the ongoing negotiations with the EU. Will there be the sort of cheering on and instant acceptance of every EU position that we have seen over the last several years or will there be more of a focus on what is actually best for us?
The latter leaves plenty of room for disagreement. A legitimate case can be made for staying in a CU with the EU, for example and there are good arguments why ending our alignment with EU regulation may be self defeating and commercially silly. I am by no means saying that remainers need to sign up for some extreme version of Brexit canvassed from time to time. I am not myself so why should they? What I am saying is that I want us to have that debate in the context of what is good for the UK, not what might either defeat Brexit or what suits the EU best.
This will undoubtedly be more difficult if some of the prattier Brexiteers think it is funny, clever or anything other than stupid to rub the noses of those with a different view in the decision.
Well, that's really confounded my expectations of the sort of line the Spectator would be pushing.
Brendan O'Neill -The shameful attack on Alastair Stewart Douglas Murray - In defence of Alastair Stewart Fraser Nelson - From Alastair Stewart to Scruton, the public are fighting back against the cancel culture of the digital mob
These edgy contrarian lads are never very contrary amongst themselves, and curiously they're always quite keen to to recruit 'the public' in support of their homogenised opinion of the week.
Apropos of nothing, when seeking out valiant defences of Alastair Stewart I noticed that one of the top search questions was 'Is Alastair Stewart married to Moira Stewart?'. How we laughed!
Comments
The Ministers in the Council of Ministers were elected on disparate national issues not on European matters. Comparable to the UK would be for Council chiefs to suddenly have owerwhelmingly significant power over national matters rather than the voters at the national election. No thanks!
Link: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/mopo/implement/omt/html/index.en.html
Is he on a promise from the woman who was hoisted aloft on Brexit night?
If 57% had united behind any alternative figure then they would have won a landslide. Instead Johnson's party won over 3.7 million votes more than the next closest rival. His party won more votes than the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties put together.
My Mam used to go there regularly. Then we got some bathroom scales!
There is nothing to be unhappy about. This is a great victory, a great success and the start of a new chapter for our future.
However what Leavers are planning tonight is nothing on what Nats would have done had they won in 2014
As I have already said, I would have a little more respect if you were just honest and said I don't like the EU because I have a deep seated irrational prejudice against it, or I don't like foreigners, because at least either of those would have some credibility and possibility of being truthful.
Enjoy the bash.
But Rotten Borough is right - they own this. I just don't want to hear any more of this stuff about "the Establishment" and "the metropolitan elite". The Leavers are the Establishment now, and every consequence that flows from this, good or bad, is theirs alone.
The UK Parliament makes UK decisions and is made up at a UK election.
The Council of Ministers makes EU decisions but is not made up at an EU election.
And all this unity guff all of a sudden from Bozo and the rest . I accept Brexit is going to happen and there’s no going back for at least a generation but Leavers need to realize this isn’t just about the EU .
Fundamentally it’s about what sort of country and what sort of values the UK has. The EU and the vote became a proxy for that .
Keir Starmer has a great piece in the Guardian but the next battle will be between more progressive values or the descent into the horrible hate filled Trump nationalism .
I think you are right to compare Leavers with Nats. Small minded, divisive, tribal, backward thinking and generally politically ignorant. There is a huge similarity. The one thing about such extremists is that they do despise a turncoat even more than normal people. Hope you have a lovely time.
Edit: and you are not an "ex Remain voter". You are and always will be a Remain voter.
Plus we have given in on the most preliminary of preliminary issues - the time of our leaving. I hope we have a better team negotiating our trade deal.
Titter.
I'll go first to show it's not a trick question. I'm Remain dominant (obvs) but have quite a strong Leave streak. For example, I can laugh at Bernard Manning jokes (some of them), I get irritated sometimes by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, and I wince slightly at overly earnest attempts to encourage diversity in the arts.
All makes for an R/L rating - or identity if you prefer - of 80/20.
Would you be nearer a 50/50?
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/2020_democratic_presidential_nomination-6730.html
The Warren slide continues.
The perception of how a candidate has been polling and how they've actually been polling has been utterly ludicrous this race.
https://twitter.com/_benkatz/status/1223241775642484738
https://twitter.com/_benkatz/status/1223242033453838337
Jo would have regretted the referendum result, but she would have been much more worried if its legacy divided our country for good. It’s up to each of us to rebuild the ties that bind us; so Brexiteers please don’t gloat, &remainers please don’t promote despair.
These are such wise words that those who ignore them need to question why
Biggest mistake: not having referendums in this country on the big calls; second biggest, the Euro - it isn't credible to say this is not a state like project once a joint currency is in place; third biggest: not making a decent offer to Cameron; fourth biggest: allowing second referendums when they got the 'wrong' answer. This spoke volumes directly to those with independent minded democratic ideas and was unanswerable.
Picking up on some earlier comments, I see a commonality between Prince Charles and the EU. Both have suffered persistent low level negative press coverage over a number of years, if not decades.
@HYUFD thoughtfully re-hashes a poll showing more people prefer William & Kate (very much a double act) as our next monarch to Charles.
That isn't of any relevance - on the sad passing of his mother (which is, I hope, a fair way off yet) Charles will become King and rightly so. The "problem", apart from the Diana business, which is ancient history, is he has dared to express opinions and opinions not generally favoured by some portions of the Conservative media.
He has opinions - the last I heard we lived in a plural democracy. However, I understand the rationale behind the notion the Head of State shouldn't have an opinion - if you are or purport to be a unifying figure the one way to dispel that notion would be to say something with which x% of your population won't agree.
Nonetheless, I'm not bothered by his opinions and I think he will be an excellent king. Age shouldn't be an issue - Trump is two and a half years older. If our notion of a monarch is someone who never says anything, fine. I quite like the idea of a monarch who can and does contribute directly to a national debate on key matters such as the environment - we should welcome all perspectives.
It is the rate the ECB pays banks who deposit funds with them. The reason it's at -0.5% is because the ECB wants to discourage banks from hoarding deposits and then just dumping them on the ECB. (The theory being that banks will be forced to lend to people and businesses if they are guaranteed to lose money if they deposit it with the ECB.)
As an aside, when the next crisis hits, then that -0.5% rate will not discourage banks at all - they'll all send their money straight to the ECB, and take the loss.
I like the Scottish Mail front page, which goes " Killer virus!!! Brexit Day.", possibly conflating two stories.
"Rieu’s singles chart entry has occurred as people on the Remain side of Brexit are buying and streaming ‘Ode to Joy’. A version of the piece is the organisational anthem of the European Union, and with it Remainers are sending a political message ahead of the UK leaving the EU this Friday (31 January).
People on the Leave side of Brexit are similarly buying and streaming ‘17 Million F***-Offs’ by Dominic Frisby to also send a political message ahead of Friday."
The debate is now about real decisions and real choices.
But the EU isn't setup like that. And there's an awful lot of resistance from the Euro winners (like Germany) to subsidising the Euro losers. The irony is, of course, that if Greece and Italy decide that being in the Euro doesn't work for them, and the whole thing collapses, then it will be Germany who is hurt the most.
What a relief after the great @Wulfrun_Phil debacle!
I know banks used to deposit funds overnight to make money on the funds based on whatever rate was going but if there's a negative rate what's to stop the bank just holding the funds themself? Or is that not possible for some technical reason?
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/jul/10/big-brexit-party-rave-troubadour-london-andrea-jenkyns-gisela-stuart
So it's an "historic" day (apparently) though we remain full members of the EU until at least 31/12/20 so, rather like the referendum itself back in 2016, everything changed and nothing changed at the same time.
I voted LEAVE then and I still think we are better off outside the political structure that the EU has become. I note we joined at the same time as Denmark and Ireland and the three countries have all had very different experiences.
The Irish have embraced the EU pretty much completely while the Danes still, use the Krone albeit tied to the Euro via ERM 2 and rejected joining the Eurozone in 2000.
I'm no fan of the Single Market which has done more harm than good in my view.I note the Mail offering a kind word to the Europeans but question the notions of us being "free" and "independent" after 47 years.
I've never felt my freedom constrained at any time during EU membership but accept the notion we should be able to make our own laws though lawmakers should always consider the impact of those laws on others.
As for the "independent" bit we've not been a truly independent state since 1914 and possibly before that. We have ceded large parts of our foreign and defence sovereignty voluntarily to NATO and that has been spectacularly successful. We are part of any number of global treaties and agreements and will continue so to be.
The problem is the only two coherent positions are either fully in (Euro, Schengen) or fully out. Our mean-spirited, opt-out riddled, rebate obsessed lacklustre membership served only to antagonise everyone and satisfy no one. Rather like pretending to be "tough" on crime, there were always votes to be had from pretending to be "tough" with the Europeans no matter the compromises agreed behind closed doors.
Will we ever rejoin the EU? I'd like to think a pragmatic future Government would decide that if it were incontrovertibly in the country's best interests to rejoin, we would rejoin. Those circumstances may arise in 10 years, 50 years or never but we shouldn't allow ideology to over-ride the national interest.
We need a follow up. This is mainly about "values" and you have a lot of Leave in there, don't you? You know, "PC gorn mad" and all that stuff, for example.
Or have I read yet another poster all wrong after the deeply embarrassing @Wulfrun_Phil affair?
And the answer lies in the quiet Swiss town of Basel, where the Bank of International Settlements lives. And their economists created a concept called Risk Weighted Assets. The idea is that the assets a bank owned would be weighted according to their riskiness. So, an unsecured loan to a Beirut laundromat would have a risk weighting of five. By contrast, your mortgage would probably rate a two. Cash is one, while money deposited with the Central Bank was considered risk free.
Investors look at bank solvency by comparing the amount of equity* (assets less liability) to the risk weighted assets. So, a really well capitalised bank like HSBC might have capital of 20% of risk weighted assets.
A bank will always prefer to deposit assets with the Central Bank over leaving it in cash, because (for reasons I don't really understand), cash is considered a riskier asset than a deposit with a central bank. And all banks try and minimise their risk weighted assets number.
* And some pseudo equity stuff, but that's not important right now.
Despite that, the UK's decision isn unlikely to be a success in my judgment. There are too many false premises behind it.
* Given most transfers now are electronic, we don't mean physical paper or coins do we? Cash that can be robbed I can certainly see as riskier than deposits.
Oh I don’t know. Self evaluation is excruciatingly vain, like lengthy twitter bios; you’re just telling people what you’d like them to think of you, so I’d best retreat
The economists don't currently expect the EU to move ahead faster, I think you need to check the record. The IMF actually expects the UK to outgrow the Eurozone both this year and next year I do believe.
Either way, what is true is that the current administration, Brexiteers and Eurosceptics in general deserve the same respect, support and constructive advice they gave the old regime.
Great Britain is not a small island. There are hundreds of thousands of islands in the world, and Great Britain is the eighth biggest island in the world. I think it is the fifth biggest by population. Perhaps the second biggets by economy. Calling Great Britain a small island is geographically illiterate.
Perhaps what they mean is 'small country'. Which is also pretty debatable if you want to look beyond land area, where we are certainly mid-table at best, but not as obviously wrong as 'small island'.
Of course it could happen but being downbeat and pessimistic was one of the reasons labour crashed to their defeat. The one thing Boris does seem to achieve, with considerable success, is to dismiss the doomsters and replace it with his constant optimism and can do attitude
One of the key tests of this will be the attitude of remainers to the ongoing negotiations with the EU. Will there be the sort of cheering on and instant acceptance of every EU position that we have seen over the last several years or will there be more of a focus on what is actually best for us?
The latter leaves plenty of room for disagreement. A legitimate case can be made for staying in a CU with the EU, for example and there are good arguments why ending our alignment with EU regulation may be self defeating and commercially silly. I am by no means saying that remainers need to sign up for some extreme version of Brexit canvassed from time to time. I am not myself so why should they? What I am saying is that I want us to have that debate in the context of what is good for the UK, not what might either defeat Brexit or what suits the EU best.
This will undoubtedly be more difficult if some of the prattier Brexiteers think it is funny, clever or anything other than stupid to rub the noses of those with a different view in the decision.
Brendan O'Neill -The shameful attack on Alastair Stewart
Douglas Murray - In defence of Alastair Stewart
Fraser Nelson - From Alastair Stewart to Scruton, the public are fighting back against the cancel culture of the digital mob
These edgy contrarian lads are never very contrary amongst themselves, and curiously they're always quite keen to to recruit 'the public' in support of their homogenised opinion of the week.
Apropos of nothing, when seeking out valiant defences of Alastair Stewart I noticed that one of the top search questions was 'Is Alastair Stewart married to Moira Stewart?'. How we laughed!