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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Point of no return

SystemSystem Posts: 12,170
edited January 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Point of no return

When Emily Thornberry threw an early hat into what is likely to become a crowded Labour leadership ring she did so with a vow to step down if it ever became clear, from the polls and her colleagues, that she couldn’t win a future election as a sign of her loyalty to the party.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    edited January 2020
    Very interesting thread. It would seem that ET could go into the -40s before Labour gets rid of her, if they ever do.

    Two questions occur to me:

    a) how closely are leaders' ratings at a given moment correlated to opinion polls scores?
    b) what are ET's current negative numbers with the public, amongst those who have actually heard of her?

    Interesting that BoJo and Blair in 2005 were almost as unpopular as Sir John Major. I guess governments don't always lose elections - sometimes opposition parties do too ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,230
    I think minus 70% could fairly be taken as terminal...
  • Funny how both Ed Miliband's and Jeremy Corbyn's ratings rose sharply during election campaigns when the broadcasting neutrality rules kicked in.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,940
    edited January 2020
    Ben Wallace, SoS for Defence, has ordered the Royal Navy to protect British ships in the Gulf, which sounds like the sort of thing they'd be doing anyway.

    Wallace also urged deescalation when he spoke to the American Secretary of Defense, Mark Esper (although probably not just because that is what Jeremy Corbyn said he should do).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50996630
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468
    edited January 2020

    Ben Wallace, SoS for Defence, has ordered the Royal Navy to protect British ships in the Gulf, which sounds like the sort of thing they'd be doing anyway.

    Wallace also urged deescalation when he spoke to the American Secretary of Defense, Mark Esper (although probably not just because that is what Jeremy Corbyn said he should do).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50996630

    Apparently Boris wasn't best pleased either, when he heard what had happened.

    Edit: spelling
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    A very good thread head, thank you. The only comment I would make is that when talking about party leaders the crucial date is 1922. Prior to that date parties did not have ‘leaders’ per se. Labour, for example, elected a chairman annually, who was sometimes elected for more than one term, to act as chief spokesman in the Commons. The Unionists, meanwhile, had a Leader in the Commons and a leader in the Lords, who were theoretically equal.

    These circumstances didn’t really work after 1922 with mass democratic systems starting to change the rules, so new roles were created modelled on a system the Liberals has devised in the 1890s after Rosebery’s resignation. This meant there was one leader who became the key public face of the party. The first holders were Bonar Law (Unionist, preciously leader of the Unionists in the House of Commons from 1911-1921) and Ramsay Macdonald (a pre-war chairman of the Labour Party).

    So if drawing historical parallels, that’s where the line is drawn.

    Of course there’s another argument that it could be drawn in the 1990s when party members and not MPs started electing the leaders...
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Ben Wallace, SoS for Defence, has ordered the Royal Navy to protect British ships in the Gulf, which sounds like the sort of thing they'd be doing anyway.

    Wallace also urged deescalation when he spoke to the American Secretary of Defense, Mark Esper (although probably not just because that is what Jeremy Corbyn said he should do).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50996630

    Defender hasn't had the T45 PIP upgrade yet so lets hope its all over before the sea temps rise in the gulf. Give BAE Systems a chance though; they've only been working on Dauntless for 5 years.
  • BantermanBanterman Posts: 287
    She's also a rich pointless personality free zone, with large house in posh part of Cheshire, another house in poshest road in Salford and gets us to pay for a ritzy flat in London shared with Granny Rayner.

    Classic champagne socialist.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Funny how both Ed Miliband's and Jeremy Corbyn's ratings rose sharply during election campaigns when the broadcasting neutrality rules kicked in.

    ..and yet the left rail against the BBC for its bias during the election..
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Good morning, everyone.

    If I were looking to reconnect with disaffected Northerners I wouldn't go for Thornberry.
  • Funny how both Ed Miliband's and Jeremy Corbyn's ratings rose sharply during election campaigns when the broadcasting neutrality rules kicked in.

    ..and yet the left rail against the BBC for its bias during the election..
    And the right rails against the BBC outside elections. For instance, Number 10 has banned ministers from appearing on R4 Today or Newsnight.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468
    Banterman said:

    She's also a rich pointless personality free zone, with large house in posh part of Cheshire, another house in poshest road in Salford and gets us to pay for a ritzy flat in London shared with Granny Rayner.

    Classic champagne socialist.
    What does her husband do? Richard Burgon aside, solicitors are often comfortably off, and if he is, or something like, they could have quite a substantial joint income.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    If I were looking to reconnect with disaffected Northerners I wouldn't go for Thornberry.

    Not posh enough? It is true she has never been to Eton and was not a member of the Bullingdon Club but will northerners really mind, so long as she does not interfere with their clog-dancing or impose VAT on tripe?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Direct quote from a Trump tweet:
    "....targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran & the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD. The USA wants no more threats!"

    Leaving aside the more important matters, it's oxymoronic to demand no more threats whilst making one.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Banterman said:

    She's also a rich pointless personality free zone, with large house in posh part of Cheshire, another house in poshest road in Salford and gets us to pay for a ritzy flat in London shared with Granny Rayner.

    Classic champagne socialist.
    What do you want her to do? Live in a fucking tent like Colonel Gaddafi?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Funny how both Ed Miliband's and Jeremy Corbyn's ratings rose sharply during election campaigns when the broadcasting neutrality rules kicked in.

    ..and yet the left rail against the BBC for its bias during the election..
    And the right rails against the BBC outside elections. For instance, Number 10 has banned ministers from appearing on R4 Today or Newsnight.
    you wre trying to compare media bias to Labour popularity, which is of course utter bollocks.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. JohnL, she sounds patronising, and her flag comments a few years ago aren't exactly helpful.

    Identity is becoming the battleground of politics. Being seen to mock the English flag isn't going to play well in England, and reinforces a current negative perception many people in the Midlands/North have about Labour not only not being patriotic, but seeming to actively dislike this country.

    If Labour want to do better then dropping crazy bullshit like reparations for the British Empire would be a great way to start. Even better would be cutting foreign aid in half and redirecting that half into transport and internet infrastructure in the Midlands/North.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    Good morning, everyone.

    If I were looking to reconnect with disaffected Northerners I wouldn't go for Thornberry.

    Not posh enough? It is true she has never been to Eton and was not a member of the Bullingdon Club but will northerners really mind, so long as she does not interfere with their clog-dancing or impose VAT on tripe?
    If Vat was imposed on some of the tripe talked on PB, the Govt coffers would be overflowing
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298

    Funny how both Ed Miliband's and Jeremy Corbyn's ratings rose sharply during election campaigns when the broadcasting neutrality rules kicked in.

    ..and yet the left rail against the BBC for its bias during the election..
    And the right rails against the BBC outside elections. For instance, Number 10 has banned ministers from appearing on R4 Today or Newsnight.
    The BBC try to be fair, and sometimes get it wrong. The right wing press aren't trying to be fair. There's a clear difference.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    rkrkrk said:

    Funny how both Ed Miliband's and Jeremy Corbyn's ratings rose sharply during election campaigns when the broadcasting neutrality rules kicked in.

    ..and yet the left rail against the BBC for its bias during the election..
    And the right rails against the BBC outside elections. For instance, Number 10 has banned ministers from appearing on R4 Today or Newsnight.
    The BBC try to be fair, and sometimes get it wrong. The right wing press aren't trying to be fair. There's a clear difference.
    and the Mirror, Independent (lol), and C4 of course are...

    People buy papers they want to read . There is a preponderance of right of centre newspapers. .. but if people did not buy them.... Could it be that the Mirror is a crap rag that few want to read and no one has devised a format for a left of centre paper that people actually want to buy.... I wonder why?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I see Trump is confessing to planning a war crime
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468
    Saffirs all out. England lead of 46. Which is better than many were expecting.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    Alistair said:

    I see Trump is confessing to planning a war crime

    Indeed. Will get himself impeached if he's not careful.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Mr. JohnL, she sounds patronising, and her flag comments a few years ago aren't exactly helpful.

    Identity is becoming the battleground of politics. Being seen to mock the English flag isn't going to play well in England, and reinforces a current negative perception many people in the Midlands/North have about Labour not only not being patriotic, but seeming to actively dislike this country.

    If Labour want to do better then dropping crazy bullshit like reparations for the British Empire would be a great way to start. Even better would be cutting foreign aid in half and redirecting that half into transport and internet infrastructure in the Midlands/North.

    Mr D, the next Labour leader needs to fully embrace English traditions. A spot of Morris Dancing after a turn round the Maypole? Followed by joining the druids for summer solstice at Stonehenge.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    rkrkrk said:

    Funny how both Ed Miliband's and Jeremy Corbyn's ratings rose sharply during election campaigns when the broadcasting neutrality rules kicked in.

    ..and yet the left rail against the BBC for its bias during the election..
    And the right rails against the BBC outside elections. For instance, Number 10 has banned ministers from appearing on R4 Today or Newsnight.
    The BBC try to be fair, and sometimes get it wrong. The right wing press aren't trying to be fair. There's a clear difference.
    Channel 4 don't even try though.
  • Richard burgon, the nation awaits...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468

    Mr. JohnL, she sounds patronising, and her flag comments a few years ago aren't exactly helpful.

    Identity is becoming the battleground of politics. Being seen to mock the English flag isn't going to play well in England, and reinforces a current negative perception many people in the Midlands/North have about Labour not only not being patriotic, but seeming to actively dislike this country.

    If Labour want to do better then dropping crazy bullshit like reparations for the British Empire would be a great way to start. Even better would be cutting foreign aid in half and redirecting that half into transport and internet infrastructure in the Midlands/North.

    Mr D, the next Labour leader needs to fully embrace English traditions. A spot of Morris Dancing after a turn round the Maypole? Followed by joining the druids for summer solstice at Stonehenge.....
    Druids, Mr M, are/were not English.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited January 2020

    Mr. JohnL, she sounds patronising, and her flag comments a few years ago aren't exactly helpful.

    Identity is becoming the battleground of politics. Being seen to mock the English flag isn't going to play well in England, and reinforces a current negative perception many people in the Midlands/North have about Labour not only not being patriotic, but seeming to actively dislike this country.

    If Labour want to do better then dropping crazy bullshit like reparations for the British Empire would be a great way to start. Even better would be cutting foreign aid in half and redirecting that half into transport and internet infrastructure in the Midlands/North.

    Mr D, the next Labour leader needs to fully embrace English traditions. A spot of Morris Dancing after a turn round the Maypole? Followed by joining the druids for summer solstice at Stonehenge.....
    Aren't all Morris Dancers up in arms at the change of date of the May bank holiday?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533



    People buy papers they want to read . There is a preponderance of right of centre newspapers. .. but if people did not buy them.... Could it be that the Mirror is a crap rag that few want to read and no one has devised a format for a left of centre paper that people actually want to buy.... I wonder why?

    The fair comparison includes online readership, for which the Guardian and the Mail have some of the highest levels in the entire world. The aspect that you're missing for the print media is that readership alone doesn't finance newspapers - you need to attract advertisers, and newspapers with prosperous readers get more. It was that which killed the Daiuly Herald, for example, which always had a decent readership but few ads.

    The Swedes have an interesting system of a levy on advertising which is used to subsidise the cost of printing newspapers with a significantly different viewpoint (left, right, whatever) from those already on the market. An independent board decides whether there is a significant differnce - so far as I know, without much controversy. But with the dead tree market dying anyway, it's becoming less important.

    Another excellent Corporeal header, by the way.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited January 2020
    - “The lowest rating by a LotO who went on to become Prime Minister is -22 by David Cameron. So, we can take that as our first bottom point.”

    The lowest rating by Richard Leonard, current FAV (12/1) Unionist candidate to be FM, is -33, so well below the point of no return. And yet SLab cannot ditch him as there is no one better waiting in the wings. The best SLab leader-in-waiting by far - Ian Murray - is sitting in the wrong legislature.

    If anyone wants an illustration of why so many Scots support independence, then consider that the following leaders have been forced upon the country despite being immensely unpopular there:

    Boris Johnson -34*
    Theresa May -58*
    (David Cameron: can’t find, but they were similar to May’s)

    (*these are from properly-weighted, full-sample Scottish polls. If you look at the sub-samples then both Johnson and May have much worse lowest ratings: in the minus 60 to 70 area.)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Great header btw if only to prove that starting positions don't really matter. Given the distance to the next GE it would be interesting to time-weight the ratings.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    Also should be noted that Blair still led Howard as preferred PM
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148

    - “The lowest rating by a LotO who went on to become Prime Minister is -22 by David Cameron. So, we can take that as our first bottom point.”

    The lowest rating by Richard Leonard, current FAV (12/1) Unionist candidate to be FM, is -33, so well below the point of no return. And yet SLab cannot ditch him as there is no one better waiting in the wings. The best SLab leader-in-waiting by far - Ian Murray - is sitting in the wrong legislature.

    If anyone wants an illustration of why so many Scots support independence, then consider that the following leaders have been forced upon the country despite being immensely unpopular there:

    Boris Johnson -34*
    Theresa May -58*
    (David Cameron: can’t find, but they were similar to May’s)

    (*these are from properly-weighted, full-sample Scottish polls. If you look at the sub-samples then both Johnson and May have much worse lowest ratings: in the minus 60 to 70 area.)

    Yet the SNP got 45% at the general election in Scotland, exactly the same as Yes got in 2014, who leads the UK or Unionist parties in Scotland really makes zero difference to support for the Union overall
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Miss Vance, I'd take a Milibandit over a member of Jezbollah.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Against an unpopular Prime Minister, continuity Miliband might well be more than enough.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Mr. JohnL, she sounds patronising, and her flag comments a few years ago aren't exactly helpful.

    Identity is becoming the battleground of politics. Being seen to mock the English flag isn't going to play well in England, and reinforces a current negative perception many people in the Midlands/North have about Labour not only not being patriotic, but seeming to actively dislike this country.

    If Labour want to do better then dropping crazy bullshit like reparations for the British Empire would be a great way to start. Even better would be cutting foreign aid in half and redirecting that half into transport and internet infrastructure in the Midlands/North.

    Mr D, the next Labour leader needs to fully embrace English traditions. A spot of Morris Dancing after a turn round the Maypole? Followed by joining the druids for summer solstice at Stonehenge.....
    Druids, Mr M, are/were not English.
    Well, they aren't having Stonehenge back....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    Raab on Marr says he is still in touch with his Iranian counterpart and although he wants to see the Iranian nuclear deal work, Iran has backtracked from its commitments
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Richard burgon, the nation awaits...

    To be replaced a fortnight later by Richard, Begone.....
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited January 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Raab on Marr says he is still in touch with his Iranian counterpart and although he wants to see the Iranian nuclear deal work, Iran has backtracked from its commitments

    The Johnson govt is, bit by bit and quietly, falling into line on Iran. Too much at stake on the trade deal.
  • Against an unpopular Prime Minister, continuity Miliband might well be more than enough.
    Especially as CCHQ is unlikely to rehash that whole Ed betrayed his brother meme.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    Jess Phillips now on and says she can win over Labour members and says the country did not trust Labour to govern
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    A smart Rebecca Long-Bailey would do a joint ticket with Starmer as his Deputy. Acknowledging she isn't prepared for the job of LotO yet, but always looking over his shoulder, the implied threat that if he moves too far away from Corbynism......
  • HYUFD said:

    Raab on Marr says he is still in touch with his Iranian counterpart and although he wants to see the Iranian nuclear deal work, Iran has backtracked from its commitments

    Dominic Raab is having a good whatever-this-is. Suddenly he looks statesmanlike and assured rather than the lightweight clown who did not know Dover was on the way to France. It will be hard for Boris to demote him in the post-Brexit reshuffle.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    HYUFD said:

    Raab on Marr says he is still in touch with his Iranian counterpart and although he wants to see the Iranian nuclear deal work, Iran has backtracked from its commitments

    The Johnson govt is, bit by bit and quietly, falling into line on Iran. Too much at stake on the trade deal.
    More like a quiet acceptance that Iran was always going to cheat.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    Ed Miliband won more seats than Corbyn has just done
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    HYUFD said:

    Also should be noted that Blair still led Howard as preferred PM

    Yes and I noted with interest your view the other day that Jess Phillips could quite easily prove to be "Blair in a skirt". Meaning likely to smash the Cons in the next GE. But I wasn't sure whether you were being on the level or whether it was a devious double bluff to try and get me to vote for her when your actual opinion of who she is in a skirt is Neil Kinnock.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    edited January 2020

    Direct quote from a Trump tweet:
    "....targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran & the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD. The USA wants no more threats!"

    Leaving aside the more important matters, it's oxymoronic to demand no more threats whilst making one.

    Trust Trump to be able to be both oxymoronic and moronic.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    HYUFD said:

    Raab on Marr says he is still in touch with his Iranian counterpart and although he wants to see the Iranian nuclear deal work, Iran has backtracked from its commitments

    The Johnson govt is, bit by bit and quietly, falling into line on Iran. Too much at stake on the trade deal.
    Since the USA presumably would prefer fulsome praise and support immediately rather than somewhat muted statements over several days, is it not more likely that the government line is and always was intended to be cautiously supportive? Raabs comments give me the impression he and the government are following exactly the advice of diplomats.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Saffirs all out. England lead of 46. Which is better than many were expecting.

    No kidding, the headlines on Friday were about dismal England.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. kle4, ha, I use that exact line (moronic and oxymoronic) in one of my Hero of Hornska books.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Mr. JohnL, she sounds patronising, and her flag comments a few years ago aren't exactly helpful.

    Identity is becoming the battleground of politics. Being seen to mock the English flag isn't going to play well in England, and reinforces a current negative perception many people in the Midlands/North have about Labour not only not being patriotic, but seeming to actively dislike this country.

    If Labour want to do better then dropping crazy bullshit like reparations for the British Empire would be a great way to start. Even better would be cutting foreign aid in half and redirecting that half into transport and internet infrastructure in the Midlands/North.

    Mr D, the next Labour leader needs to fully embrace English traditions. A spot of Morris Dancing after a turn round the Maypole? Followed by joining the druids for summer solstice at Stonehenge.....
    The various druidic groups fight like cats in a sack, I am informed, so the factions of the left would feel right at home.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited January 2020
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Raab on Marr says he is still in touch with his Iranian counterpart and although he wants to see the Iranian nuclear deal work, Iran has backtracked from its commitments

    The Johnson govt is, bit by bit and quietly, falling into line on Iran. Too much at stake on the trade deal.
    Since the USA presumably would prefer fulsome praise and support immediately rather than somewhat muted statements over several days, is it not more likely that the government line is and always was intended to be cautiously supportive? Raabs comments give me the impression he and the government are following exactly the advice of diplomats.
    Pompeo intervened yesterday, pointedly including Britain in the "European" position, and the government is quietly shifting the tone since. The warships announcement was last night, right after Pompeo's statement, and the subtly shifted tone from Raab today.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    edited January 2020
    Starmer says the election ended the argument for a second referendum and the Leave and Remain divide and the argument must move onto maintaining a close relationship with the EU in other areas and the future trading relationship and the terms of any future US trade deal
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,484

    HYUFD said:

    Raab on Marr says he is still in touch with his Iranian counterpart and although he wants to see the Iranian nuclear deal work, Iran has backtracked from its commitments

    The Johnson govt is, bit by bit and quietly, falling into line on Iran. Too much at stake on the trade deal.
    I don't really see that. I think the line has always been: critical of Iran/not supportive of the assassination.

    On the first part, I don't buy Iran as public enemy No. 1 - it becomes ever more evident that in most cases 'our' preferred side of the Muslim equation are 'the baddies'. However I don't expect a Damascene conversion on that, and if Iran hasn't been keeping their side of the Nuclear deal, it is right that we say so.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    edited January 2020

    Against an unpopular Prime Minister, continuity Miliband might well be more than enough.
    Especially as CCHQ is unlikely to rehash that whole Ed betrayed his brother meme.
    For some reason I had a vision of cchq getting really desperate and using lines like 'Labour leader stabs helpless animal' alongside a pic of them eating a steak.

    Would probably work on the Greens.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited January 2020
    HYUFD said:

    - “The lowest rating by a LotO who went on to become Prime Minister is -22 by David Cameron. So, we can take that as our first bottom point.”

    The lowest rating by Richard Leonard, current FAV (12/1) Unionist candidate to be FM, is -33, so well below the point of no return. And yet SLab cannot ditch him as there is no one better waiting in the wings. The best SLab leader-in-waiting by far - Ian Murray - is sitting in the wrong legislature.

    If anyone wants an illustration of why so many Scots support independence, then consider that the following leaders have been forced upon the country despite being immensely unpopular there:

    Boris Johnson -34*
    Theresa May -58*
    (David Cameron: can’t find, but they were similar to May’s)

    (*these are from properly-weighted, full-sample Scottish polls. If you look at the sub-samples then both Johnson and May have much worse lowest ratings: in the minus 60 to 70 area.)

    Yet the SNP got 45% at the general election in Scotland, exactly the same as Yes got in 2014, who leads the UK or Unionist parties in Scotland really makes zero difference to support for the Union overall
    Well, we’re about to find out. By putting The Clown into Downing Street, the Tories are about to test your theory to the point of destruction.

    (Incidentally, the SNP+SGP vote at UK GE 2019 was actually 46%, up 1.3 points on the 2014 referendum. And don’t forget that a significant minority of SLab voters also support independence. The direction of travel is clear.)
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,167
    edited January 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer says the election ended the argument for a second referendum and the Leave and Remain divide and the argument must move onto a close relationship with the EU in other areas and the future trading relationship and the terms of any future US trade deal

    Staking out the pragmatic position. This will be the Starmer playbook - both appeals to the left, such as in the video last night, and appeals to the pragmatising centre.

    Could work very well.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Mr. kle4, ha, I use that exact line (moronic and oxymoronic) in one of my Hero of Hornska books.

    Perhaps that's where I got it from I suppose.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    kle4 said:

    Saffirs all out. England lead of 46. Which is better than many were expecting.

    No kidding, the headlines on Friday were about dismal England.
    I did point out at the time that England’s first innings score was what the pre match odds suggested it should be, rather than an embarrassment
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    HYUFD said:
    I'm a little surprised as if I had to guess I'd assume water to be the most popular of those so to be kept.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer says the election ended the argument for a second referendum and the Leave and Remain divide and the argument must move onto maintaining a close relationship with the EU in other areas and the future trading relationship and the terms of any future US trade deal

    He seems sensible. And looks pretty normal . Excitement aside, they could do worse.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468

    HYUFD said:

    Raab on Marr says he is still in touch with his Iranian counterpart and although he wants to see the Iranian nuclear deal work, Iran has backtracked from its commitments

    The Johnson govt is, bit by bit and quietly, falling into line on Iran. Too much at stake on the trade deal.
    I don't really see that. I think the line has always been: critical of Iran/not supportive of the assassination.

    On the first part, I don't buy Iran as public enemy No. 1 - it becomes ever more evident that in most cases 'our' preferred side of the Muslim equation are 'the baddies'. However I don't expect a Damascene conversion on that, and if Iran hasn't been keeping their side of the Nuclear deal, it is right that we say so.
    I've felt for years that the Iranians have had a bad deal from the UK and US, ever since the days of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    Starmer also says he wants to focus on making state schools so good private schools are not needed rather than close private schools
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Oracle, surely the escort ships is a precaution based on what happened recently?

    Mr. kle4, maybe but it's a pretty natural sentiment to come up with.

    It was never published, but an early story draft I wrote had a description I learnt later was very similar to something in a George RR Martin book.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    HYUFD said:

    Ed Miliband won more seats than Corbyn has just done
    Catch up grandad, it's all about total number of votes now, that's why the Jez is so great.
  • isam said:

    kle4 said:

    Saffirs all out. England lead of 46. Which is better than many were expecting.

    No kidding, the headlines on Friday were about dismal England.
    I did point out at the time that England’s first innings score was what the pre match odds suggested it should be, rather than an embarrassment
    A friend's betting strategy is to assume that a particularly good or bad innings is due to conditions rather than one side's brilliance, and therefore to bet on the other team also skittling the side out, or racking up centuries.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    HYUFD said:

    Raab on Marr says he is still in touch with his Iranian counterpart and although he wants to see the Iranian nuclear deal work, Iran has backtracked from its commitments

    The Johnson govt is, bit by bit and quietly, falling into line on Iran. Too much at stake on the trade deal.
    Not really, we fell into line with Obama's shite deal too easily. We should never have agreed to such generous terms for Iran without a complete dismantling of their nuclear program, not a temporary halt as was agreed by Obama.

    This would correct that wrong.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,880
    edited January 2020
  • Mr. Oracle, surely the escort ships is a precaution based on what happened recently?

    It is, but it's also a clear signal - Britain is closer on hand, not just one of the European voices.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    edited January 2020

    HYUFD said:

    - “The lowest rating by a LotO who went on to become Prime Minister is -22 by David Cameron. So, we can take that as our first bottom point.”

    The lowest rating by Richard Leonard, current FAV (12/1) Unionist candidate to be FM, is -33, so well below the point of no return. And yet SLab cannot ditch him as there is no one better waiting in the wings. The best SLab leader-in-waiting by far - Ian Murray - is sitting in the wrong legislature.

    If anyone wants an illustration of why so many Scots support independence, then consider that the following leaders have been forced upon the country despite being immensely unpopular there:

    Boris Johnson -34*
    Theresa May -58*
    (David Cameron: can’t find, but they were similar to May’s)

    (*these are from properly-weighted, full-sample Scottish polls. If you look at the sub-samples then both Johnson and May have much worse lowest ratings: in the minus 60 to 70 area.)

    Yet the SNP got 45% at the general election in Scotland, exactly the same as Yes got in 2014, who leads the UK or Unionist parties in Scotland really makes zero difference to support for the Union overall
    Well, we’re about to find out. By putting The Clown into Downing Street, the Tories are about to test your theory to the point of destruction.

    (Incidentally, the SNP+SGP vote at UK GE 2019 was actually 46%, up 1.3 points on the 2014 referendum. And don’t forget that a significant minority of SLab voters also support independence. The direction of travel is clear.)
    The Tories under Boris got 25% of the Scottish vote, their second highest Scottish voteshare in 25 years.

    In 2014 Yes got 44.7%, in 2019 the SNP and Greens combined got 46%, just 1% higher, the direction of travel is clear, there is no movement of any significance towards independence and thus no mandate for indyref2 (also don't forget not all SNP voters back independence either).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Interesting bits and bobs in the Sunday Times on things this Govt. is considering. These include a constitutional committee to look at making the House of Lords a more regional body instead. The link to Ireland to be a tunnel from NW England to Belfast, via the Isle of Man. A tunnel to the Isle of Wight. And a tunnel under the Severn. (Tunnel drilling speeds are now way in advance of what they were for the Channel Tunnel - plus the ability to make concrete from the debris, so you build the tunnel as you drill.)

    This looks like a Governemnt that is going to push ahead with decades worth of infrastructure in the first part of its first term.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer says the election ended the argument for a second referendum and the Leave and Remain divide and the argument must move onto maintaining a close relationship with the EU in other areas and the future trading relationship and the terms of any future US trade deal

    He seems sensible. And looks pretty normal . Excitement aside, they could do worse.
    He is the best of a poor field, could be a Hollande to Boris' Sarkozy is probably the best Labour can hope for after what is now almost a decade out of power
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer also says he wants to focus on making state schools so good private schools are not needed rather than close private schools

    Preserving the status quo then....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer says the election ended the argument for a second referendum and the Leave and Remain divide and the argument must move onto maintaining a close relationship with the EU in other areas and the future trading relationship and the terms of any future US trade deal

    He seems sensible. And looks pretty normal . Excitement aside, they could do worse.
    He has prime ministerial hair compared to Boris's Joe 90 on ketamine effort.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153

    Interesting bits and bobs in the Sunday Times on things this Govt. is considering. These include a constitutional committee to look at making the House of Lords a more regional body instead. The link to Ireland to be a tunnel from NW England to Belfast, via the Isle of Man. A tunnel to the Isle of Wight. And a tunnel under the Severn. (Tunnel drilling speeds are now way in advance of what they were for the Channel Tunnel - plus the ability to make concrete from the debris, so you build the tunnel as you drill.)

    This looks like a Governemnt that is going to push ahead with decades worth of infrastructure in the first part of its first term.

    Leaving the next labour government to figure out how to pay for it all, especially as it'll no doubt cost double to quadruple what they say it will. Genius.
  • Gabs3 said:

    And don't forget that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi.

    Most of the ETA bombers were Spanish citizens. Did that make the Spanish government a sponsor of terrorism?
    While Saudi Arabia is often a secondary source of funds and support for terror movements who can find more motivated and ideologically invested benefactors, Saudi Arabia arguably remains the most prolific sponsor of international Islamist terrorism, allegedly supporting groups as disparate as the Afghanistan Taliban, Al Qaeda, Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and the Al-Nusra Front.[98][99]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-sponsored_terrorism
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Could Lavery hurry up and say he's running.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer says the election ended the argument for a second referendum and the Leave and Remain divide and the argument must move onto maintaining a close relationship with the EU in other areas and the future trading relationship and the terms of any future US trade deal

    He seems sensible. And looks pretty normal . Excitement aside, they could do worse.
    He has prime ministerial hair compared to Boris's Joe 90 on ketamine effort.
    What happenstance, I was watching Joe 90 just yesterday, true story (I'd never heard of it until 3 weeks ago but the housemate has been gifted all the Anderson shows).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer says the election ended the argument for a second referendum and the Leave and Remain divide and the argument must move onto a close relationship with the EU in other areas and the future trading relationship and the terms of any future US trade deal

    Staking out the pragmatic position. This will be the Starmer playbook - both appeals to the left, such as in the video last night, and appeals to the pragmatising centre.

    Could work very well.
    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1213759897453633536?s=20
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    Alistair said:

    Could Lavery hurry up and say he's running.

    Hes probably sorting out the finances for a leadership bid first, hes real good at that apparently .
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    edited January 2020
    Dura_Ace said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer says the election ended the argument for a second referendum and the Leave and Remain divide and the argument must move onto maintaining a close relationship with the EU in other areas and the future trading relationship and the terms of any future US trade deal

    He seems sensible. And looks pretty normal . Excitement aside, they could do worse.
    He has prime ministerial hair compared to Boris's Joe 90 on ketamine effort.
    Your "Prime Ministerial hair" meter needs recalibrating, as Boris's barnet has already got him elected.

    Maybe Jess Phillips could go with the full Elsa Lanchester "Bride of Frankenstein" look?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    edited January 2020
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Starmer says the election ended the argument for a second referendum and the Leave and Remain divide and the argument must move onto a close relationship with the EU in other areas and the future trading relationship and the terms of any future US trade deal

    Staking out the pragmatic position. This will be the Starmer playbook - both appeals to the left, such as in the video last night, and appeals to the pragmatising centre.

    Could work very well.
    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1213759897453633536?s=20
    Maybe Rejoiner Jess should defect to the LibDems - and bid to lead them?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    HYUFD said:
    I don't know anyone who was excited by the broadband thing - interested and bemused, yes, but it didn't feel like a left-wing priority at all. No strong views on utilities, but nationalising rail so that there's a unified system and a clear responsibility so we know who to blame) still makes sense to me. So as a lefty member I'm fine with that.

    But I also agree with Starmer on our Brexit stance and his general approach of "left instincts but pragmatic". I thought his much-admired video was weak, though - too much about past struggles, not enough about what we should do next.

    Still keeping an open mind.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    edited January 2020

    HYUFD said:
    I don't know anyone who was excited by the broadband thing - interested and bemused, yes, but it didn't feel like a left-wing priority at all. No strong views on utilities, but nationalising rail so that there's a unified system and a clear responsibility so we know who to blame) still makes sense to me. So as a lefty member I'm fine with that.

    But I also agree with Starmer on our Brexit stance and his general approach of "left instincts but pragmatic". I thought his much-admired video was weak, though - too much about past struggles, not enough about what we should do next.

    Still keeping an open mind.
    I think you're right about his video, but if I had to guess I'd assume in a labour leadership contest nostalgic remembrance of the labour movement, as a signal of continuity, and reminder of mostly better times, probably plays well.

    Edit: Someone I know who voted Labour did specifically mention the broadband policy to me, even though they were highly sceptical it would work or even happen, but they liked the intent.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    HYUFD said:
    I don't know anyone who was excited by the broadband thing - interested and bemused, yes, but it didn't feel like a left-wing priority at all. No strong views on utilities, but nationalising rail so that there's a unified system and a clear responsibility so we know who to blame) still makes sense to me. So as a lefty member I'm fine with that.
    I remember lots of excitement on here when it was announced, and among Labour supporters elsewhere. Don't rewrite history because it's obvious now how stupid a policy it was. I remember that idiot YouGov being posted over and over as proof that the British people were ready for mass nationalisation of private industry because people wanted free stuff.
  • kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:
    I don't know anyone who was excited by the broadband thing - interested and bemused, yes, but it didn't feel like a left-wing priority at all. No strong views on utilities, but nationalising rail so that there's a unified system and a clear responsibility so we know who to blame) still makes sense to me. So as a lefty member I'm fine with that.

    But I also agree with Starmer on our Brexit stance and his general approach of "left instincts but pragmatic". I thought his much-admired video was weak, though - too much about past struggles, not enough about what we should do next.

    Still keeping an open mind.
    I think you're right about his video, but if I had to guess I'd assume in a labour leadership contest nostalgic remembrance of the labour movement, as a signal of continuity, and reminder of mostly better times, probably plays well.

    Edit: Someone I know who voted Labour did specifically mention the broadband policy to me, even though they were highly sceptical it would work or even happen, but they liked the intent.
    Unlike most on here I am slightly open to the possibility that nationalised broadband has a chance of being better than what we have. But even if that were true, getting it right would be hugely difficult and time consuming for a new government. There is no quick template structure from abroad we can copy, the proposals themselves were not clear either. Therefore to have it is a priority in a radical manifesto is just bizarre, and re-enforced the view that Corbyn Labour in govt would be as incompetent as they were in opposition.
  • MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:
    I don't know anyone who was excited by the broadband thing - interested and bemused, yes, but it didn't feel like a left-wing priority at all. No strong views on utilities, but nationalising rail so that there's a unified system and a clear responsibility so we know who to blame) still makes sense to me. So as a lefty member I'm fine with that.
    I remember lots of excitement on here when it was announced, and among Labour supporters elsewhere. Don't rewrite history because it's obvious now how stupid a policy it was. I remember that idiot YouGov being posted over and over as proof that the British people were ready for mass nationalisation of private industry because people wanted free stuff.
    Bemusement rather than excitement is my abiding memory but let us not forget the Conservatives also pledged universal (although not free) broadband so presumably there are vast tracts of the country still using tin cans and string to get online.

    We intend to bring full fibre and gigabit-capable broadband to every home and business across the UK by 2025. We know how difficult it will be, so we have announced a raft of legislative changes to accelerate progress and £5 billion of new public funding to connect premises which are not commercially viable.
  • Excellent thread, that helps to flesh out why how and why he got his leftwing-but-pragmatic instincts.
  • MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:
    I don't know anyone who was excited by the broadband thing - interested and bemused, yes, but it didn't feel like a left-wing priority at all. No strong views on utilities, but nationalising rail so that there's a unified system and a clear responsibility so we know who to blame) still makes sense to me. So as a lefty member I'm fine with that.
    I remember lots of excitement on here when it was announced, and among Labour supporters elsewhere. Don't rewrite history because it's obvious now how stupid a policy it was. I remember that idiot YouGov being posted over and over as proof that the British people were ready for mass nationalisation of private industry because people wanted free stuff.
    I also remember several folk saying it was a killer blow for Lab chances. Retrospectively there may be an embarrassment of retrospective killer blows for Lab but I don't think that was one of them.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:
    I don't know anyone who was excited by the broadband thing - interested and bemused, yes, but it didn't feel like a left-wing priority at all. No strong views on utilities, but nationalising rail so that there's a unified system and a clear responsibility so we know who to blame) still makes sense to me. So as a lefty member I'm fine with that.
    I remember lots of excitement on here when it was announced, and among Labour supporters elsewhere. Don't rewrite history because it's obvious now how stupid a policy it was. I remember that idiot YouGov being posted over and over as proof that the British people were ready for mass nationalisation of private industry because people wanted free stuff.
    I also remember several folk saying it was a killer blow for Lab chances. Retrospectively there may be an embarrassment of retrospective killer blows for Lab but I don't think that was one of them.
    It was, take a look at the polling. That marked the moment people stopped taking Labour seriously. The reason the dementia tax played so badly for us was that it leaned into our nasty party image, the reason Corbynet killed off Labour was because it did the same for Labour's credibility issue. It confirmed the worst fears of voters about the party in each case.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:
    I don't know anyone who was excited by the broadband thing - interested and bemused, yes, but it didn't feel like a left-wing priority at all. No strong views on utilities, but nationalising rail so that there's a unified system and a clear responsibility so we know who to blame) still makes sense to me. So as a lefty member I'm fine with that.
    I remember lots of excitement on here when it was announced, and among Labour supporters elsewhere. Don't rewrite history because it's obvious now how stupid a policy it was. I remember that idiot YouGov being posted over and over as proof that the British people were ready for mass nationalisation of private industry because people wanted free stuff.
    Bemusement rather than excitement is my abiding memory but let us not forget the Conservatives also pledged universal (although not free) broadband so presumably there are vast tracts of the country still using tin cans and string to get online.

    We intend to bring full fibre and gigabit-capable broadband to every home and business across the UK by 2025. We know how difficult it will be, so we have announced a raft of legislative changes to accelerate progress and £5 billion of new public funding to connect premises which are not commercially viable.
    Broadband in this country is not always up to the standards available elsewhere. One of my sons recently complained that mine, at around 60mb/s, was slow compared with his at home in Thailand, and another son remarks on how fast mine is compared with his in Kent.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,623
    kle4 said:
    So they're moving from the 1970s to the 1980s?

    While the rest of us have just joined the 2020s!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Just seen there's apparently going to be a new Battlestar Galactica series. Unsure if it'll be out this year.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    HYUFD said:

    Starmer also says he wants to focus on making state schools so good private schools are not needed rather than close private schools

    Oh dear. That is weak.

    "It's not just about how much you spend it's about how you spend it."

    It's that sort of statement. Duck billed platitude.
This discussion has been closed.