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  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Happy New Year to all
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Quincel said:

    speedy2 said:

    What matters is IOWA IOWA IOWA.

    South Carolina is actually 4th.
    The order for the Democratic Primary is:

    Iowa (03/02)
    N.Hampshire (11/02)
    Nevada (22/02)
    S.Carolina (29/02)
    Super Tuesday (10/03)

    By the end of March the contest should be over, there are very few states after March 17th.

    Because the top 4 are very close in the first 3 states whoever wins Iowa will win the first 3 states due to momentum.
    If Biden loses Iowa he will lose the first 3 contests in a row, 4 strait weeks of losing.

    The betting therefore should reflect primarly if only Iowa, and don't forget Iowa for the Democrats has special rules too.

    Iowa is important, but it's far from everything. Cruz winning it in 2016 didn't stop Trump continuing his frontrunner status. Clinton barely won it the same year by under 0.5% but held her lead nationally fairly comfortably. Santorum won (essentially joint 1st) the state in 2012 but only won a handful of other states afterwards; and came 3rd in the next two states. Obama in 2008 knocked out Edwards by winning Iowa, but the race was nowhere near to being over (and he didn't carry the momentum into New Hampshire very much despite some expectations).

    I'm not denying that winning Iowa has boosted the candidates who do so, but it rarely if ever dominates the process like you describe. Iowa and NH frequently have different winners, and though nominees tend to win one of them there's no rule which says you have to.
    I remember the Rick Santorum presidency well. Precedent is comforting for simplicity but voters remain complicated. Thank heavens.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,211
    More anecdata from my friends to the left of me. Won't be Philips
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    kle4 said:

    Compare and contrast Boris optimistic message to Corbyn's depressing in denial nonsense

    https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1212138977953796096?s=08

    He promises no more elections in 2020 - he's already abolishing the PCC and local elections, the devil!
    Important* elections.

    *unless one is a LD when these should be as a quasi-MP vote...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Pulpstar said:

    More anecdata from my friends to the left of me. Won't be Philips

    No shit Sherlock
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,127
    I'll post now because I assume everything will be swamped at midnight. So happy new year, everybody!
  • Happy New Year to one and all!
  • First of 2020
  • The happiest of years to everyone.

    And may your God go with you
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675

    The happiest of years to everyone.

    And may your God go with you

    Here’s to the hope of a less ghastly year.
  • Jonathan said:

    The happiest of years to everyone.

    And may your God go with you

    Here’s to the hope of a less ghastly year.
    Yes - I really hope you have a better year Jonathan. All the best
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,543
    Happy New Year and heres to a successful FTA with the EU
  • Happy New Year everyone - sky one are kicking off with a gig by nineties band oasis - Bring on the roaring twenties!
  • Happy New Year from Colombia, though we have four and a half hours to wait here.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,597
    Thanks everyone for your insights and good humour over the last turn around the sun. Here's to 2020 and whatever notables it brings.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,211

    Pulpstar said:

    More anecdata from my friends to the left of me. Won't be Philips

    No shit Sherlock
    Betting on the sun rising in the East is a profitable strategy ;)
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    Quincel said:

    speedy2 said:

    What matters is IOWA IOWA IOWA.

    South Carolina is actually 4th.
    The order for the Democratic Primary is:

    Iowa (03/02)
    N.Hampshire (11/02)
    Nevada (22/02)
    S.Carolina (29/02)
    Super Tuesday (10/03)

    By the end of March the contest should be over, there are very few states after March 17th.

    Because the top 4 are very close in the first 3 states whoever wins Iowa will win the first 3 states due to momentum.
    If Biden loses Iowa he will lose the first 3 contests in a row, 4 strait weeks of losing.

    The betting therefore should reflect primarly if only Iowa, and don't forget Iowa for the Democrats has special rules too.

    Iowa is important, but it's far from everything. Cruz winning it in 2016 didn't stop Trump continuing his frontrunner status. Clinton barely won it the same year by under 0.5% but held her lead nationally fairly comfortably. Santorum won (essentially joint 1st) the state in 2012 but only won a handful of other states afterwards; and came 3rd in the next two states. Obama in 2008 knocked out Edwards by winning Iowa, but the race was nowhere near to being over (and he didn't carry the momentum into New Hampshire very much despite some expectations).

    I'm not denying that winning Iowa has boosted the candidates who do so, but it rarely if ever dominates the process like you describe. Iowa and NH frequently have different winners, and though nominees tend to win one of them there's no rule which says you have to.
    Only one candidate has ever got the nonination without winning either Iowa or N.H., Bill Clinton in 1992 and only perhaps because Tom Harkin who won Iowa that year was the Senator from Iowa.

    In the Democratic Primary whoever wins Iowa usually gets the nomination, in the Republican Primary it's usually whoever wins N.H.
    That's due to the differences between party structures.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    A cracking 2020 to all.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    The sample sizes of historic Iowa and NH presidential primaries are so small, conclusions about reliable rules shouldn't be drawn from them.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Happy New Year from Colombia, though we have four and a half hours to wait here.

    And from Britannia Bay, Mustique where still 3 hours to go. No sign of himself, and no RN frigate at anchor.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    speedy2 said:

    Only one candidate has ever got the nonination without winning either Iowa or N.H., Bill Clinton in 1992 and only perhaps because Tom Harkin who won Iowa that year was the Senator from Iowa.

    In the Democratic Primary whoever wins Iowa usually gets the nomination, in the Republican Primary it's usually whoever wins N.H.
    That's due to the differences between party structures.

    I'm too young to remember that race but check out how the leadership swings around through different states, it must have been absolutely bananas:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,228
    Quincel said:

    speedy2 said:

    What matters is IOWA IOWA IOWA.

    South Carolina is actually 4th.
    The order for the Democratic Primary is:

    Iowa (03/02)
    N.Hampshire (11/02)
    Nevada (22/02)
    S.Carolina (29/02)
    Super Tuesday (10/03)

    By the end of March the contest should be over, there are very few states after March 17th.

    Because the top 4 are very close in the first 3 states whoever wins Iowa will win the first 3 states due to momentum.
    If Biden loses Iowa he will lose the first 3 contests in a row, 4 strait weeks of losing.

    The betting therefore should reflect primarly if only Iowa, and don't forget Iowa for the Democrats has special rules too.

    Iowa is important, but it's far from everything. Cruz winning it in 2016 didn't stop Trump continuing his frontrunner status. Clinton barely won it the same year by under 0.5% but held her lead nationally fairly comfortably. Santorum won (essentially joint 1st) the state in 2012 but only won a handful of other states afterwards; and came 3rd in the next two states. Obama in 2008 knocked out Edwards by winning Iowa, but the race was nowhere near to being over (and he didn't carry the momentum into New Hampshire very much despite some expectations).

    I'm not denying that winning Iowa has boosted the candidates who do so, but it rarely if ever dominates the process like you describe. Iowa and NH frequently have different winners, and though nominees tend to win one of them there's no rule which says you have to.
    Iowa has historically been more important for the Democrats than the Republicans. For the Republicans, it often picks someone on the religious right side of the party. For the Democrats, it usually lifts whoever wins it significantly. Back in '04, Kerry was way behind Dean and Gephardt, and then Iowa. In '08, Obama lagged Clinton... then Iowa. The only time the Democratic nominee was not chosen in Iowa in the modern primary period was '92, when it was won by the Senator from... Iowa.

    That doesn't mean that you can't lose Iowa and win the nomination, because small datasets. But if Buttigieg wins Iowa, then he will be blasted onto the main stage, and given he's equal first in NH, then you'd reckon he has to be odds on for there too. At this point, the other moderates will be dropping like flies...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,228

    speedy2 said:

    Only one candidate has ever got the nonination without winning either Iowa or N.H., Bill Clinton in 1992 and only perhaps because Tom Harkin who won Iowa that year was the Senator from Iowa.

    In the Democratic Primary whoever wins Iowa usually gets the nomination, in the Republican Primary it's usually whoever wins N.H.
    That's due to the differences between party structures.

    I'm too young to remember that race but check out how the leadership swings around through different states, it must have been absolutely bananas:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
    If only someone anonymous had written a really good novel about that Primary race...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,228
    Re Sanders, his biggest problem is that (a) he's not as well organised at '16, and (b) he doesn't get that many second choice votes.

    Essentially, if Sanders drops out, then his vote largely goes to Warren. (And she probably wins.)

    If Warren drops out, then her vote goes four roughly equal ways: Biden, Sanders, Buttigieg and Other (mostly Klobucher).
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Compare and contrast Boris optimistic message to Corbyn's depressing in denial nonsense

    https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1212138977953796096?s=08

    I hope he's had a massive coronary by the end of January.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,211
    Iowa is important for Sanders, Buttigieg and Warren. Less so for Biden because he has strength in Nevada and South Carolina.
    NH and Iowa could decide his main challenger
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Dura_Ace said:

    Compare and contrast Boris optimistic message to Corbyn's depressing in denial nonsense

    https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1212138977953796096?s=08

    I hope he's had a massive coronary by the end of January.
    Not appropriate.
  • eggegg Posts: 1,749
    Fishing said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Compare and contrast Boris optimistic message to Corbyn's depressing in denial nonsense

    https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1212138977953796096?s=08

    I hope he's had a massive coronary by the end of January.
    Not appropriate.
    Seems weird to me. The elections over. He’s still stoking expectations as though still on other side of Election Day. The right thing now would be to row back on expectations, talk up the hard work And all pulling in same direction needed to earn prosperity.
  • rcs1000 said:

    speedy2 said:

    Only one candidate has ever got the nonination without winning either Iowa or N.H., Bill Clinton in 1992 and only perhaps because Tom Harkin who won Iowa that year was the Senator from Iowa.

    In the Democratic Primary whoever wins Iowa usually gets the nomination, in the Republican Primary it's usually whoever wins N.H.
    That's due to the differences between party structures.

    I'm too young to remember that race but check out how the leadership swings around through different states, it must have been absolutely bananas:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
    If only someone anonymous had written a really good novel about that Primary race...
    Dominic Cummings just texted me to say his favourite ever documentary is The War Room about the actual 1992 election. One of the Brexit book describes him watching it over and over again for its lessons in campaigning. From Bill to Boris: who'd have thunk it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgo-qwfCFYU

    It is available on DVD btw (fx: waves dvd at webcam) if you want to succour your inner Dom.
This discussion has been closed.