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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What sort of fool would have predicted the politics of 2020 in

SystemSystem Posts: 11,006
edited December 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What sort of fool would have predicted the politics of 2020 in 2010? Me.

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  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,341
    Good morning.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,341
    Compare and contrast with the overly assiduous pursuit of Leon Brittan...
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/27/family-reveal-anguish-of-man-phil-longcake-who-died-in-carlisle-chimney-tragedy

    Which is not to say that the police are the wrong decision here - without knowing more if the facts of the case, it’s impossible to say. That there are two very different standards in operation is undeniable, though.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,341
    I like the header, David,
    What big event will dominate the politics of the next decade ? Still Brexit ?
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    OBE for James Graham. Who?

    Ah yes, the playwright who made a star of Dominic Cummings in Brexit: the Uncivil War.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    I wonder whether the current Parliament, with it's much larger proportion of women will have less 'baying mob' moments than previous ones. That's not to say women don't ever participate in such things, but in general they are more likely to sit round the guillotine knitting than howl as the victim is decapitated.
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    I wonder whether the current Parliament, with it's much larger proportion of women will have less 'baying mob' moments than previous ones. That's not to say women don't ever participate in such things, but in general they are more likely to sit round the guillotine knitting than howl as the victim is decapitated.

    If you mean the organised barracking of opponents, the key word is organised -- by the whips. It began as a Conservative tactic to support Mrs Thatcher.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330
    edited December 2019

    OBE for James Graham. Who?

    Ah yes, the playwright who made a star of Dominic Cummings in Brexit: the Uncivil War.

    I thought you meant the GB rugby league star currently playing in Oz. (ex St Helens RLFC)
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918

    I wonder whether the current Parliament, with it's much larger proportion of women will have less 'baying mob' moments than previous ones. That's not to say women don't ever participate in such things, but in general they are more likely to sit round the guillotine knitting than howl as the victim is decapitated.

    If you mean the organised barracking of opponents, the key word is organised -- by the whips. It began as a Conservative tactic to support Mrs Thatcher.
    Hmmmm. Thatcher had reasonable to big majorities, too. If the Tory whips do that again, could get nasty, with the likes of Francois involved.
    TBH, I hope they don't. Doesn't look good.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,235
    edited December 2019

    OBE for James Graham. Who?

    Ah yes, the playwright who made a star of Dominic Cummings in Brexit: the Uncivil War.

    I thought you meant the GB rugby league star currently playing in Oz. (ex St Helens RLFC)
    Hmm. I may need to check that Wikipedia has not led me astray! ETA no, it is the Cummings/Cumberbatch writer.

    In other news, Steven Knight wot wrote pb's seasonal favourite, A Christmas Carol, got a CBE.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330
    edited December 2019

    I wonder whether the current Parliament, with it's much larger proportion of women will have less 'baying mob' moments than previous ones. That's not to say women don't ever participate in such things, but in general they are more likely to sit round the guillotine knitting than howl as the victim is decapitated.

    If you mean the organised barracking of opponents, the key word is organised -- by the whips. It began as a Conservative tactic to support Mrs Thatcher.
    Hmmmm. Thatcher had reasonable to big majorities, too. If the Tory whips do that again, could get nasty, with the likes of Francois involved.
    TBH, I hope they don't. Doesn't look good.
    I remember all the crap from Bercow about making the Commons a nicer place, it was not going to work and never will. The Commons is a bear pit. In any event we are much better behaved that some other parliaments.
    Furthermore, I expect that there will be no need for organised barracking, big majority and a Speaker who is liked rather than detested.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,977
    Nigelb said:

    I like the header, David,
    What big event will dominate the politics of the next decade ? Still Brexit ?

    Climate change. Parties and governments that get caught on the wrong side of the issue will get wiped out.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I like the header, David,
    What big event will dominate the politics of the next decade ? Still Brexit ?

    Climate change. Parties and governments that get caught on the wrong side of the issue will get wiped out.
    A climactic extinction event?
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    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I like the header, David,
    What big event will dominate the politics of the next decade ? Still Brexit ?

    Climate change. Parties and governments that get caught on the wrong side of the issue will get wiped out.
    There are at least five people in the honours list connected with climate change, which may be a sign of Whitehall taking the issue more seriously (and not just that I'd still got the list open from previous posts).
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330
    Jonathan said:

    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.

    We are doing no better and no worse than other Countries AFAICS.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I like the header, David,
    What big event will dominate the politics of the next decade ? Still Brexit ?

    Climate change. Parties and governments that get caught on the wrong side of the issue will get wiped out.
    There are at least five people in the honours list connected with climate change, which may be a sign of Whitehall taking the issue more seriously (and not just that I'd still got the list open from previous posts).
    There used to be dozens, every year.

    Oh, sorry, did you mean people whose connection was being opposed to it?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.

    We are doing no better and no worse than other Countries AFAICS.
    Well that’s absolutely no excuse. We should be challenging not hiding behind such fig leafs.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,341
    edited December 2019
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I like the header, David,
    What big event will dominate the politics of the next decade ? Still Brexit ?

    Climate change. Parties and governments that get caught on the wrong side of the issue will get wiped out.
    While I agree, I’m not sure how much that will affect UK politics. Assuming it’s not all BS (I know, something of an heroic assumption), it is one policy area in which I have been moderately relieved by the initial noises coming from the new administration.

    In any event, of far greater significance for all of us is next year’s US presidential contest.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905
    My predictions were:

    1) Brexit will still be a big issue.
    2) Negative growth for at least one quarter in 2019.
    3) The May deal will not pass.
    4) A deal will pass, with a proviso that there will be a referendum on it.
    5) We won't leave in March but may do later.
    6) There will be a general election this year.

    Not too bad. I definitely didn't foresee Boris as PM - did anyone predict that?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,341
    rkrkrk said:

    My predictions were:

    1) Brexit will still be a big issue.
    2) Negative growth for at least one quarter in 2019.
    3) The May deal will not pass.
    4) A deal will pass, with a proviso that there will be a referendum on it.
    5) We won't leave in March but may do later.
    6) There will be a general election this year.

    Not too bad. I definitely didn't foresee Boris as PM - did anyone predict that?

    Everyone was busy laying him.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.

    We are doing no better and no worse than other Countries AFAICS.
    Well that’s absolutely no excuse. We should be challenging not hiding behind such fig leafs.
    Get over yourself - focus your energy on those doing less than nothing. All the rest is pathetic virtue signalling.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    edited December 2019
    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.

    We are doing no better and no worse than other Countries AFAICS.
    Well that’s absolutely no excuse. We should be challenging not hiding behind such fig leafs.
    Get over yourself - focus your energy on those doing less than nothing. All the rest is pathetic virtue signalling.
    Eh?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,341
    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.

    We are doing no better and no worse than other Countries AFAICS.
    Well that’s absolutely no excuse. We should be challenging not hiding behind such fig leafs.
    Get over yourself - focus your energy on those doing less than nothing. All the rest is pathetic virtue signalling.
    No, it is not. The only significant effect we can have on “those doing less than nothing” is to lead by example. Hanging around bleating but they’re worse than us is doing less than nothing.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330
    edited December 2019
    felix said:

    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?

    Didn't IDS introduce Universal credit that's proved to be a fecking disaster?

    Bit like Cooper being touted as Labour leader who introduced HIPS.. another fecking diasater.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,341
    felix said:

    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?

    Ah, one nation Toryism in full, magnificent flow.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.

    We are doing no better and no worse than other Countries AFAICS.
    Well that’s absolutely no excuse. We should be challenging not hiding behind such fig leafs.
    Get over yourself - focus your energy on those doing less than nothing. All the rest is pathetic virtue signalling.
    No, it is not. The only significant effect we can have on “those doing less than nothing” is to lead by example. Hanging around bleating but they’re worse than us is doing less than nothing.
    There are many countrie doing much worse/not really giving a shit about climate change. Do you buy any of their goods? Holiday there?
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.

    We are doing no better and no worse than other Countries AFAICS.
    Well that’s absolutely no excuse. We should be challenging not hiding behind such fig leafs.
    Get over yourself - focus your energy on those doing less than nothing. All the rest is pathetic virtue signalling.
    No, it is not. The only significant effect we can have on “those doing less than nothing” is to lead by example. Hanging around bleating but they’re worse than us is doing less than nothing.
    We already do that in spades. You be a sucker if you want to - let the rest of us get on with our lives. I'm channelling my inner malcG today as hogmanay approaches.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?

    Ah, one nation Toryism in full, magnificent flow.
    Yup - the real one nation. Apparently the losers have learnt nothing from the GE.
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    Is the two-party duopoly back? In 2010, DH forecast its demise, and today's OP affirms it, but in England and Wales, both the 2017 and 2019 results looked just like old times with the map coloured red and blue, with nary a LibDem in sight. It is even much the same in Scotland but with yellow having replaced red.

    What is also noticeable is the electorate is not quite as daft as it seems, voting differently according to context. Ukip or the Brexit Party can win the European elections and not trouble the returning officers for Westminster ballots.

    Scotland is perhaps a hybrid. The SNP did not supplant Labour as a left-wing party but as the anti-Conservative party. Now it is hard to be sure whether to explain Scottish politics as revolving around independence or anti-Toryism; both, probably. In any case, even if Nicola Sturgeon has moved the party away from Salmond's business-friendly Scottish blue, it is only to focus on independence rather than socialism.
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    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?

    Ah, one nation Toryism in full, magnificent flow.
    Yup - the real one nation. Apparently the losers have learnt nothing from the GE.

    The 52% used to be the nation. Now it’s the 44%. I am sure this is all very healthy.

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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    felix said:

    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?

    Didn't IDS introduce Universal credit that's proved to be a fecking disaster?

    Bit like Cooper being touted as Labour leader who introduced HIPS.. another fecking diasater.
    Not at all - it has encouraged people to work and solve their own problems instead of expecting everyone else to continually bail them out. Of course I'm exaggerating for effect just to goad the losers on here. But it is very frustrating to be hearing again the lack of understanding of the mindset of those who voted Tory last week. They aren't cruel, heartless or thick. They simply want more fairness and less focus on handouts and hand-wringing. To pretend that the social security sytem pre-UC was somehow a good thing simply beggars belief.
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    Is the two-party duopoly back? In 2010, DH forecast its demise, and today's OP affirms it, but in England and Wales, both the 2017 and 2019 results looked just like old times with the map coloured red and blue, with nary a LibDem in sight. It is even much the same in Scotland but with yellow having replaced red.

    What is also noticeable is the electorate is not quite as daft as it seems, voting differently according to context. Ukip or the Brexit Party can win the European elections and not trouble the returning officers for Westminster ballots.

    Scotland is perhaps a hybrid. The SNP did not supplant Labour as a left-wing party but as the anti-Conservative party. Now it is hard to be sure whether to explain Scottish politics as revolving around independence or anti-Toryism; both, probably. In any case, even if Nicola Sturgeon has moved the party away from Salmond's business-friendly Scottish blue, it is only to focus on independence rather than socialism.

    It's a very strange world, your correct about European elections and Politics can be mind blowing.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?

    Ah, one nation Toryism in full, magnificent flow.
    Yup - the real one nation. Apparently the losers have learnt nothing from the GE.

    The 52% used to be the nation. Now it’s the 44%. I am sure this is all very healthy.

    Lol. I was waiting for you to pop-up.
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    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.
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    felix said:

    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?

    Ah, one nation Toryism in full, magnificent flow.
    Yup - the real one nation. Apparently the losers have learnt nothing from the GE.

    The 52% used to be the nation. Now it’s the 44%. I am sure this is all very healthy.

    Lol. I was waiting for you to pop-up.

    That’s genuinely quite sad!

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    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    Yes, I understand our voting system. I also understand that 44% of the electorate is not the nation.

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    isamisam Posts: 40,894
    edited December 2019

    Is the two-party duopoly back? In 2010, DH forecast its demise, and today's OP affirms it, but in England and Wales, both the 2017 and 2019 results looked just like old times with the map coloured red and blue, with nary a LibDem in sight. It is even much the same in Scotland but with yellow having replaced red.

    What is also noticeable is the electorate is not quite as daft as it seems, voting differently according to context. Ukip or the Brexit Party can win the European elections and not trouble the returning officers for Westminster ballots.

    Scotland is perhaps a hybrid. The SNP did not supplant Labour as a left-wing party but as the anti-Conservative party. Now it is hard to be sure whether to explain Scottish politics as revolving around independence or anti-Toryism; both, probably. In any case, even if Nicola Sturgeon has moved the party away from Salmond's business-friendly Scottish blue, it is only to focus on independence rather than socialism.

    "What is also noticeable is the electorate is not quite as daft as it seems, voting differently according to context. Ukip or the Brexit Party can win the European elections and not trouble the returning officers for Westminster ballots."

    The Euro Elections are handy for the big two, as they get a massive opinion poll showing them which way to lean at the GE. If UKIP and BXP not won the last two Euros, manifestos and campaigning from Labour and Tory would surely have been different. Same goes for the Lib Dems this year too.
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    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
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    felix said:

    felix said:

    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?

    Didn't IDS introduce Universal credit that's proved to be a fecking disaster?

    Bit like Cooper being touted as Labour leader who introduced HIPS.. another fecking diasater.
    Not at all - it has encouraged people to work and solve their own problems instead of expecting everyone else to continually bail them out. Of course I'm exaggerating for effect just to goad the losers on here. But it is very frustrating to be hearing again the lack of understanding of the mindset of those who voted Tory last week. They aren't cruel, heartless or thick. They simply want more fairness and less focus on handouts and hand-wringing. To pretend that the social security sytem pre-UC was somehow a good thing simply beggars belief.

    How has it encouraged people to work, Felix?

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    Mr. Observer, Labour got 43% of the vote in 1997, and a landslide.

    PR is a great way to fragment politics and atomise parties, as well as moving power away from the electorate and towards a political class that barters authority amongst itself.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,691
    edited December 2019
    Did you predict, David, that at the end of the decade you would still be writing always interesting headers for PB?

    One event that I think you missed the significance of had already happened in 2010, which was the Credit Crunch. The big political story of the 2010 was globalisation and liberalism coming under attack, when it had been dominant ten years earlier after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Trump, trade wars, Brexit are all facets of the new nationalism.

    For the next ten years I predict the China and US competition to continue, the UK to be still uncertain of its role in the world to be diminished, and possibly not to be the UK any more. The European Union still hanging on.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,341

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    The system is unrepresentative - just in different ways from time to time.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    felix said:

    felix said:

    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?

    Didn't IDS introduce Universal credit that's proved to be a fecking disaster?

    Bit like Cooper being touted as Labour leader who introduced HIPS.. another fecking diasater.
    Not at all - it has encouraged people to work and solve their own problems instead of expecting everyone else to continually bail them out. Of course I'm exaggerating for effect just to goad the losers on here. But it is very frustrating to be hearing again the lack of understanding of the mindset of those who voted Tory last week. They aren't cruel, heartless or thick. They simply want more fairness and less focus on handouts and hand-wringing. To pretend that the social security sytem pre-UC was somehow a good thing simply beggars belief.

    How has it encouraged people to work, Felix?

    Haven't you seen the employment record fir the last decade?
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    Mr. B, the system's representative, just on a constituency rather than a national basis.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Anyhoo - my rant over for the day - blue skies and 20+ degrees here - off to the roof for some rays :)
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    Mr. Observer, Labour got 43% of the vote in 1997, and a landslide.

    PR is a great way to fragment politics and atomise parties, as well as moving power away from the electorate and towards a political class that barters authority amongst itself.

    An excellent comment
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    Mr. Observer, Labour got 43% of the vote in 1997, and a landslide.

    PR is a great way to fragment politics and atomise parties, as well as moving power away from the electorate and towards a political class that barters authority amongst itself.

    There is nothing more fragmenting than to claim that only 44% of voters represent the nation. I think you’ll find the government will spend the next four years putting more power into its hands and removing opportunities to scrutinise its actions. In other words, it will be moving power away from the people into the hands of the political class.

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    isamisam Posts: 40,894
    edited December 2019
    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    The system is unrepresentative - just in different ways from time to time.
    No one cared when UKIP got 1 MP for 13% of the vote for 0.15% of the representation in 2015. In fact, many people were moaning that Farage was on QT too often while that discrepancy was in place.

    "Under FPTP good second places are worthless... " was the PB mantra. Now the Lib Dems are doing that, it's a great sign of progress of course, a beacon of light for the future...
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    felix said:


    felix said:

    felix said:

    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?

    Didn't IDS introduce Universal credit that's proved to be a fecking disaster?

    Bit like Cooper being touted as Labour leader who introduced HIPS.. another fecking diasater.
    Not at all - it has encouraged people to work and solve their own problems instead of expecting everyone else to continually bail them out. Of course I'm exaggerating for effect just to goad the losers on here. But it is very frustrating to be hearing again the lack of understanding of the mindset of those who voted Tory last week. They aren't cruel, heartless or thick. They simply want more fairness and less focus on handouts and hand-wringing. To pretend that the social security sytem pre-UC was somehow a good thing simply beggars belief.

    How has it encouraged people to work, Felix?

    Haven't you seen the employment record fir the last decade?

    We have not had UC for a decade.

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    felix said:

    felix said:

    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?

    Didn't IDS introduce Universal credit that's proved to be a fecking disaster?

    Bit like Cooper being touted as Labour leader who introduced HIPS.. another fecking diasater.
    Not at all - it has encouraged people to work and solve their own problems instead of expecting everyone else to continually bail them out. Of course I'm exaggerating for effect just to goad the losers on here. But it is very frustrating to be hearing again the lack of understanding of the mindset of those who voted Tory last week. They aren't cruel, heartless or thick. They simply want more fairness and less focus on handouts and hand-wringing. To pretend that the social security sytem pre-UC was somehow a good thing simply beggars belief.
    The biggest driver was they would do anything to stop Corbyn from being PM
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    Mr. Observer, Labour got almost as large a majority with 35% of the vote in 2005. And in 2001 they also had a landslide, on just 41%.

    The Conservative majority is far more modest, despite having a higher percentage of votes (if that's the stat that floats your boat) than Labour had in 1997 and 2001.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    My predictions were:

    1) Brexit will still be a big issue.
    2) Negative growth for at least one quarter in 2019.
    3) The May deal will not pass.
    4) A deal will pass, with a proviso that there will be a referendum on it.
    5) We won't leave in March but may do later.
    6) There will be a general election this year.

    Not too bad. I definitely didn't foresee Boris as PM - did anyone predict that?

    Everyone was busy laying him.
    Except those of us with a modicum of understanding of the Conservative Party. And a vote.

    One of this site's major failings is seeing Tory disaster round every corner. Based on hope, not analysis.

    It seems to have passed without comment here from the leader writers that THE betting event of the 2019 GE was laying LibDem seats. From 44 seats. Who could possibly have predicted that "Prime Minister Jo Swinson" and Revoke were going down like a cup of cold sick outside the M25? And who did a detailed regional post where they came close to getting the LibDem seats spot on (that person didn't believe they could be quite so crap as to not win Sheffield Hallam....although fair play to TSE for saying it wasn't proving quite the shoo-in)
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    edited December 2019
    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.

    We are doing no better and no worse than other Countries AFAICS.
    Well that’s absolutely no excuse. We should be challenging not hiding behind such fig leafs.
    Get over yourself - focus your energy on those doing less than nothing. All the rest is pathetic virtue signalling.
    No, it is not. The only significant effect we can have on “those doing less than nothing” is to lead by example. Hanging around bleating but they’re worse than us is doing less than nothing.
    We already do that in spades. You be a sucker if you want to - let the rest of us get on with our lives. I'm channelling my inner malcG today as hogmanay approaches.
    You will be all the better for it Felix , onwards and upwards. I look forward to us throwing off the yoke , a bright future awaits.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,124
    I have not been able to find any predictions back as far as 2010. I think I expected our recovery from the GFC to be much more difficult than it was with much higher unemployment. I think Osborne's period as Chancellor was really remarkable with extraordinary amounts of luck/skill according to taste. To outgrow the EU for much of the decade when we had by far the largest financial sector and were so dependent upon it for tax revenues and growth was extraordinary, as was the massive increase in employment.

    Looking forward I would predict that, despite Brexit, the UK will once again outperform the EZ average over much of the next decade. Our economy is growing in the right places (finance, law, IT) as well as the wrong ones (gig economy, casual labour giving people unpredictable and miserable lives) and is well placed to keep doing so. I expect the Tories to win the next election too but probably not the one after that. The next Labour PM may just have been elected but might not be in the Commons yet.

    I don't see us avoiding another Scottish referendum for the next decade, sadly. I am confident that it will have the same result as the last one and hopefully be less close. In the more immediate future I will be astonished if Nicola is still first Minister at the end of this coming year.

    I think that Africa will be a source of global concern over the decade, both as the source of large numbers of refugees and as a cause of climate change as burgeoning population growth boosts consumption and the destruction of natural environments. We will spend a lot more of this decade talking about that continent than we did the last one.

    I fear Trump will be re-elected and continue to damage America's long term interests by being an unreliable friend, not a team player and, all to often, just a bully. We should be very careful to keep our distance.

    I think a China crisis is very likely, almost certainly caused by excessive debt but spilling over into politics. My guess is that they will have a tempestuous time.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,894
    edited December 2019

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    My predictions were:

    1) Brexit will still be a big issue.
    2) Negative growth for at least one quarter in 2019.
    3) The May deal will not pass.
    4) A deal will pass, with a proviso that there will be a referendum on it.
    5) We won't leave in March but may do later.
    6) There will be a general election this year.

    Not too bad. I definitely didn't foresee Boris as PM - did anyone predict that?

    Everyone was busy laying him.
    Except those of us with a modicum of understanding of the Conservative Party. And a vote.

    One of this site's major failings is seeing Tory disaster round every corner. Based on hope, not analysis.

    It seems to have passed without comment here from the leader writers that THE betting event of the 2019 GE was laying LibDem seats. From 44 seats. Who could possibly have predicted that "Prime Minister Jo Swinson" and Revoke were going down like a cup of cold sick outside the M25? And who did a detailed regional post where they came close to getting the LibDem seats spot on (that person didn't believe they could be quite so crap as to not win Sheffield Hallam....although fair play to TSE for saying it wasn't proving quite the shoo-in)
    It seemed obvious to me that the Lib Dems were going to fail to live up to the expectations of 40 odd seats. Possibly the ultimate example of bubble thinking; simply noting all the overly engaged political types who switched to them was enough to predict they would not live up to the hype
  • Options

    Mr. Observer, Labour got almost as large a majority with 35% of the vote in 2005. And in 2001 they also had a landslide, on just 41%.

    The Conservative majority is far more modest, despite having a higher percentage of votes (if that's the stat that floats your boat) than Labour had in 1997 and 2001.

    Yes, I understand FPTP does not deliver election results that reflect the views of the electorate. That’s why I’ve consistently opposed it for my entire adult life.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,341

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    My predictions were:

    1) Brexit will still be a big issue.
    2) Negative growth for at least one quarter in 2019.
    3) The May deal will not pass.
    4) A deal will pass, with a proviso that there will be a referendum on it.
    5) We won't leave in March but may do later.
    6) There will be a general election this year.

    Not too bad. I definitely didn't foresee Boris as PM - did anyone predict that?

    Everyone was busy laying him.
    Except those of us with a modicum of understanding of the Conservative Party. And a vote.

    One of this site's major failings is seeing Tory disaster round every corner. Based on hope, not analysis.

    It seems to have passed without comment here from the leader writers that THE betting event of the 2019 GE was laying LibDem seats. From 44 seats. Who could possibly have predicted that "Prime Minister Jo Swinson" and Revoke were going down like a cup of cold sick outside the M25? And who did a detailed regional post where they came close to getting the LibDem seats spot on (that person didn't believe they could be quite so crap as to not win Sheffield Hallam....although fair play to TSE for saying it wasn't proving quite the shoo-in)
    Um... it was a pun.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited December 2019

    Mr. Observer, Labour got 43% of the vote in 1997, and a landslide.

    PR is a great way to fragment politics and atomise parties, as well as moving power away from the electorate and towards a political class that barters authority amongst itself.

    An excellent comment
    FPTP rewards one party with

    100% of the power

    based on winning

    56% of the seats

    based on

    44% of the popular vote

    representing

    29% of the electorate.
  • Options
    The broad coalition argument for First Past The Post has been destroyed by what’s happened to both the Conservative and Labour parties over the last few years. What it actually does is reward entryism, drive out dissenting views and present the electorate with the choice of leadt worst option.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,708
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    I like the header, David,
    What big event will dominate the politics of the next decade ? Still Brexit ?

    Climate change. Parties and governments that get caught on the wrong side of the issue will get wiped out.
    But which is the wrong side? I feel that the term "environmentalist" has been corrupted somewhat, so that it has become to mean "anti-capitalist". The UK cannot, of course, solve the problem of the 1% rise in global temperatures over the last century by itself. If onerous regulations and costs are applied to UK subjects, thus disadvantaging the country versus others, this will not go down well with the electorate.

    As a deep ecologist, like others I see the main issue as loss of bio-diversity which is linked to habitat loss due to homo sapien numbers. This is not being discussed because water-melon environmentalists keep banging on about climate change because it suits their anti-western virtue-signalling bias. Bizarrely - they see any discussion around human overpopulation as racist.

    Extinction Rebellion is the best environmentalist group I have found so far. At least it puts loss of bio-diversity front and centre (in their title) and recognises that democracy will never solve the planet`s problem: that it is being destroyed by one rapacious species.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,341
    isam said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    The system is unrepresentative - just in different ways from time to time.
    No one cared when UKIP got 1 MP for 13% of the vote for 0.15% of the representation in 2015. In fact, many people were moaning that Farage was on QT too often while that discrepancy was in place.

    "Under FPTP good second places are worthless... " was the PB mantra. Now the Lib Dems are doing that, it's a great sign of progress of course, a beacon of light for the future...
    Simply wrong. Many of us have supported PR for a long time.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,124
    felix said:

    felix said:

    I see Lisa Nandy 's making a fool of herself over IDS and UC. When is anyone in the Labour party going to grow up and focus their energy on the middle of the road people who told them to sod the f*** off the other week?

    Didn't IDS introduce Universal credit that's proved to be a fecking disaster?

    Bit like Cooper being touted as Labour leader who introduced HIPS.. another fecking diasater.
    Not at all - it has encouraged people to work and solve their own problems instead of expecting everyone else to continually bail them out. Of course I'm exaggerating for effect just to goad the losers on here. But it is very frustrating to be hearing again the lack of understanding of the mindset of those who voted Tory last week. They aren't cruel, heartless or thick. They simply want more fairness and less focus on handouts and hand-wringing. To pretend that the social security sytem pre-UC was somehow a good thing simply beggars belief.
    Whilst I completely agree with the latter sentiment making people with nothing wait so long for relief is unacceptable and piling them up with "loans" or advances affecting future benefits is not an answer that is fit for purpose. Too much of our benefits are still going to the middle classes (in work benefits and pension reliefs) and the old (where to start, the list is endless). We need to focus more of the available resource on those genuinely in need.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330
    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    The system is unrepresentative - just in different ways from time to time.
    No one cared when UKIP got 1 MP for 13% of the vote for 0.15% of the representation in 2015. In fact, many people were moaning that Farage was on QT too often while that discrepancy was in place.

    "Under FPTP good second places are worthless... " was the PB mantra. Now the Lib Dems are doing that, it's a great sign of progress of course, a beacon of light for the future...
    Simply wrong. Many of us have supported PR for a long time.
    PR permanent left wing coalition.. no thanks.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330

    The broad coalition argument for First Past The Post has been destroyed by what’s happened to both the Conservative and Labour parties over the last few years. What it actually does is reward entryism, drive out dissenting views and present the electorate with the choice of leadt worst option.

    it stopped Corbyn becoming PM under any circumstance. Give thanks.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,341

    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    The system is unrepresentative - just in different ways from time to time.
    No one cared when UKIP got 1 MP for 13% of the vote for 0.15% of the representation in 2015. In fact, many people were moaning that Farage was on QT too often while that discrepancy was in place.

    "Under FPTP good second places are worthless... " was the PB mantra. Now the Lib Dems are doing that, it's a great sign of progress of course, a beacon of light for the future...
    Simply wrong. Many of us have supported PR for a long time.
    PR permanent left wing coalition.. no thanks.
    You are saying there’s a permanent left wing majority among the electorate ?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,691
    edited December 2019
    FF43 said:

    Did you predict, David, that at the end of the decade you would still be writing always interesting headers for PB?

    One event that I think you missed the significance of had already happened in 2010, which was the Credit Crunch. The big political story of the 2010 was globalisation and liberalism coming under attack, when it had been dominant ten years earlier after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Trump, trade wars, Brexit are all facets of the new nationalism.

    For the next ten years I predict the China and US competition to continue, the UK to be still uncertain of its role in the world to be diminished, and possibly not to be the UK any more. The European Union still hanging on.

    The UK clearly won't be getting "together with mid-sized democracies and defend the interests we share." Whether any of the other mid-sized democracies will do anything is moot. Which along with American isolationism suggests Russian, Chinese and Iranian joint exercises might become more normal.

    Brexit doesn't help, with its aim of having as little as possible to do with other mid-sized democracies, and its rejection of shared interests.

    https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1210239550695579650
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,894
    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    The system is unrepresentative - just in different ways from time to time.
    No one cared when UKIP got 1 MP for 13% of the vote for 0.15% of the representation in 2015. In fact, many people were moaning that Farage was on QT too often while that discrepancy was in place.

    "Under FPTP good second places are worthless... " was the PB mantra. Now the Lib Dems are doing that, it's a great sign of progress of course, a beacon of light for the future...
    Simply wrong. Many of us have supported PR for a long time.
    Of course people have been supporters of other systems for a long while, but the most glaring example of FPTP's side effect went unmentioned because it was to the detriment of a party few people on here voted for.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330
    Jonathan said:

    Mr. Observer, Labour got 43% of the vote in 1997, and a landslide.

    PR is a great way to fragment politics and atomise parties, as well as moving power away from the electorate and towards a political class that barters authority amongst itself.

    An excellent comment
    FPTP rewards one party with

    100% of the power

    based on winning

    56% of the seats

    based on

    44% of the popular vote

    representing

    29% of the electorate.
    You were not suggesting PR when Blair was winning majorities, i'll be bound.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    My predictions were:

    1) Brexit will still be a big issue.
    2) Negative growth for at least one quarter in 2019.
    3) The May deal will not pass.
    4) A deal will pass, with a proviso that there will be a referendum on it.
    5) We won't leave in March but may do later.
    6) There will be a general election this year.

    Not too bad. I definitely didn't foresee Boris as PM - did anyone predict that?

    Everyone was busy laying him.
    Except those of us with a modicum of understanding of the Conservative Party. And a vote.

    One of this site's major failings is seeing Tory disaster round every corner. Based on hope, not analysis.

    It seems to have passed without comment here from the leader writers that THE betting event of the 2019 GE was laying LibDem seats. From 44 seats. Who could possibly have predicted that "Prime Minister Jo Swinson" and Revoke were going down like a cup of cold sick outside the M25? And who did a detailed regional post where they came close to getting the LibDem seats spot on (that person didn't believe they could be quite so crap as to not win Sheffield Hallam....although fair play to TSE for saying it wasn't proving quite the shoo-in)
    I said constantly they were crap and she was especially crap.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    DavidL said:

    I have not been able to find any predictions back as far as 2010. I think I expected our recovery from the GFC to be much more difficult than it was with much higher unemployment. I think Osborne's period as Chancellor was really remarkable with extraordinary amounts of luck/skill according to taste. To outgrow the EU for much of the decade when we had by far the largest financial sector and were so dependent upon it for tax revenues and growth was extraordinary, as was the massive increase in employment.

    Looking forward I would predict that, despite Brexit, the UK will once again outperform the EZ average over much of the next decade. Our economy is growing in the right places (finance, law, IT) as well as the wrong ones (gig economy, casual labour giving people unpredictable and miserable lives) and is well placed to keep doing so. I expect the Tories to win the next election too but probably not the one after that. The next Labour PM may just have been elected but might not be in the Commons yet.

    I don't see us avoiding another Scottish referendum for the next decade, sadly. I am confident that it will have the same result as the last one and hopefully be less close. In the more immediate future I will be astonished if Nicola is still first Minister at the end of this coming year.

    I think that Africa will be a source of global concern over the decade, both as the source of large numbers of refugees and as a cause of climate change as burgeoning population growth boosts consumption and the destruction of natural environments. We will spend a lot more of this decade talking about that continent than we did the last one.

    I fear Trump will be re-elected and continue to damage America's long term interests by being an unreliable friend, not a team player and, all to often, just a bully. We should be very careful to keep our distance.

    I think a China crisis is very likely, almost certainly caused by excessive debt but spilling over into politics. My guess is that they will have a tempestuous time.

    More hope and prayer than reality on 2nd referendum result David. Hard to see it going NO again.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    The system is unrepresentative - just in different ways from time to time.
    No one cared when UKIP got 1 MP for 13% of the vote for 0.15% of the representation in 2015. In fact, many people were moaning that Farage was on QT too often while that discrepancy was in place.

    "Under FPTP good second places are worthless... " was the PB mantra. Now the Lib Dems are doing that, it's a great sign of progress of course, a beacon of light for the future...
    Simply wrong. Many of us have supported PR for a long time.
    PR permanent left wing coalition.. no thanks.
    You are saying there’s a permanent left wing majority among the electorate ?
    I am saying you are deliberately misreading or misinterpreting what I meant. You are not stupid, so try again.
  • Options

    The broad coalition argument for First Past The Post has been destroyed by what’s happened to both the Conservative and Labour parties over the last few years. What it actually does is reward entryism, drive out dissenting views and present the electorate with the choice of leadt worst option.

    it stopped Corbyn becoming PM under any circumstance. Give thanks.

    With PR Corbyn would have led a rump far left party getting less than 15% of the vote.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,124
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    I have not been able to find any predictions back as far as 2010. I think I expected our recovery from the GFC to be much more difficult than it was with much higher unemployment. I think Osborne's period as Chancellor was really remarkable with extraordinary amounts of luck/skill according to taste. To outgrow the EU for much of the decade when we had by far the largest financial sector and were so dependent upon it for tax revenues and growth was extraordinary, as was the massive increase in employment.

    Looking forward I would predict that, despite Brexit, the UK will once again outperform the EZ average over much of the next decade. Our economy is growing in the right places (finance, law, IT) as well as the wrong ones (gig economy, casual labour giving people unpredictable and miserable lives) and is well placed to keep doing so. I expect the Tories to win the next election too but probably not the one after that. The next Labour PM may just have been elected but might not be in the Commons yet.

    I don't see us avoiding another Scottish referendum for the next decade, sadly. I am confident that it will have the same result as the last one and hopefully be less close. In the more immediate future I will be astonished if Nicola is still first Minister at the end of this coming year.

    I think that Africa will be a source of global concern over the decade, both as the source of large numbers of refugees and as a cause of climate change as burgeoning population growth boosts consumption and the destruction of natural environments. We will spend a lot more of this decade talking about that continent than we did the last one.

    I fear Trump will be re-elected and continue to damage America's long term interests by being an unreliable friend, not a team player and, all to often, just a bully. We should be very careful to keep our distance.

    I think a China crisis is very likely, almost certainly caused by excessive debt but spilling over into politics. My guess is that they will have a tempestuous time.

    More hope and prayer than reality on 2nd referendum result David. Hard to see it going NO again.
    Well I'll do my best and post Nicola the SNP might struggle to keep it together the way they have under her and Salmond.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited December 2019

    Jonathan said:

    Mr. Observer, Labour got 43% of the vote in 1997, and a landslide.

    PR is a great way to fragment politics and atomise parties, as well as moving power away from the electorate and towards a political class that barters authority amongst itself.

    An excellent comment
    FPTP rewards one party with

    100% of the power

    based on winning

    56% of the seats

    based on

    44% of the popular vote

    representing

    29% of the electorate.
    You were not suggesting PR when Blair was winning majorities, i'll be bound.
    I absolutely was. Big majorities inflate egos, reduce scrutiny and lead to bad government.

    Boris needs to remember he is not popular. 71% of the election did not vote for him. If he remembers that he will be more effective.

    The same was true for Blair.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    malcolmg said:

    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.

    We are doing no better and no worse than other Countries AFAICS.
    Well that’s absolutely no excuse. We should be challenging not hiding behind such fig leafs.
    Get over yourself - focus your energy on those doing less than nothing. All the rest is pathetic virtue signalling.
    No, it is not. The only significant effect we can have on “those doing less than nothing” is to lead by example. Hanging around bleating but they’re worse than us is doing less than nothing.
    We already do that in spades. You be a sucker if you want to - let the rest of us get on with our lives. I'm channelling my inner malcG today as hogmanay approaches.
    You will be all the better for it Felix , onwards and upwards. I look forward to us throwing off the yoke , a bright future awaits.
    Come 2029, the "yoke" wll be on those Scots who thought the hoped-for lighter touch of EU regulation would be preferable to that of London's oppressive tyranny.

    Joining just as the EU started to clamp down tightly to try and protect what it had from further exits. It would take a heart of Stone of Scone.....
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    OBE for James Graham. Who?

    Ah yes, the playwright who made a star of Dominic Cummings in Brexit: the Uncivil War.

    He’s also got a long list of other credits to his name, both political and non political

    Such a shame you chose to cast doubt on his achievement to make a political dig
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,330

    The broad coalition argument for First Past The Post has been destroyed by what’s happened to both the Conservative and Labour parties over the last few years. What it actually does is reward entryism, drive out dissenting views and present the electorate with the choice of leadt worst option.

    it stopped Corbyn becoming PM under any circumstance. Give thanks.

    With PR Corbyn would have led a rump far left party getting less than 15% of the vote.

    you cannot possibly know how people would have voted had PR been in operation.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,708

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    Mike, as liberal it`s so frustrating.

    As I tell my local LibDdem group, liberals start from a great position ideologically. We live in a liberal democracy and ideologically I`d estimate that 35% of the electorate are ideologically liberal (50% conservative, 15% collectivist). Yet the LibDems punch below their weight whist the collectivist party (Labour) collects votes from folk who are not ideologically collectivist due to family tradition, union ties etc.

    The LibDems need to dust off their copies of J.S Mill and start there: individual flourishment, equality of status, economically prudent, law-abiding, centre ground on the left/right axis.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    I have not been able to find any predictions back as far as 2010. I think I expected our recovery from the GFC to be much more difficult than it was with much higher unemployment. I think Osborne's period as Chancellor was really remarkable with extraordinary amounts of luck/skill according to taste. To outgrow the EU for much of the decade when we had by far the largest financial sector and were so dependent upon it for tax revenues and growth was extraordinary, as was the massive increase in employment.

    Looking forward I would predict that, despite Brexit, the UK will once again outperform the EZ average over much of the next decade. Our economy is growing in the right places (finance, law, IT) as well as the wrong ones (gig economy, casual labour giving people unpredictable and miserable lives) and is well placed to keep doing so. I expect the Tories to win the next election too but probably not the one after that. The next Labour PM may just have been elected but might not be in the Commons yet.

    I don't see us avoiding another Scottish referendum for the next decade, sadly. I am confident that it will have the same result as the last one and hopefully be less close. In the more immediate future I will be astonished if Nicola is still first Minister at the end of this coming year.

    I think that Africa will be a source of global concern over the decade, both as the source of large numbers of refugees and as a cause of climate change as burgeoning population growth boosts consumption and the destruction of natural environments. We will spend a lot more of this decade talking about that continent than we did the last one.

    I fear Trump will be re-elected and continue to damage America's long term interests by being an unreliable friend, not a team player and, all to often, just a bully. We should be very careful to keep our distance.

    I think a China crisis is very likely, almost certainly caused by excessive debt but spilling over into politics. My guess is that they will have a tempestuous time.

    More hope and prayer than reality on 2nd referendum result David. Hard to see it going NO again.
    Well I'll do my best and post Nicola the SNP might struggle to keep it together the way they have under her and Salmond.
    Be interesting to see what damage the trial does. My hope would be Angus Robertson in charge, given unlikely we can get Alex back.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625

    The broad coalition argument for First Past The Post has been destroyed by what’s happened to both the Conservative and Labour parties over the last few years. What it actually does is reward entryism, drive out dissenting views and present the electorate with the choice of leadt worst option.

    even under Corbyn labour were not suggesting changing from FPTP, so even in a hung parliament situation it's not a concession theyd make - do we PR supporters have any hope?

  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mr. Observer, Labour got 43% of the vote in 1997, and a landslide.

    PR is a great way to fragment politics and atomise parties, as well as moving power away from the electorate and towards a political class that barters authority amongst itself.

    An excellent comment
    FPTP rewards one party with

    100% of the power

    based on winning

    56% of the seats

    based on

    44% of the popular vote

    representing

    29% of the electorate.
    You were not suggesting PR when Blair was winning majorities, i'll be bound.
    I absolutely was. Big majorities, inflate egos, reduce scrutiny and lead to bad government.

    Boris needs to remember he is not popular. 71% of the election did not vote for him. If he remembers that he will be more effective.

    I think he’s very aware of that. It’s why he’s going to be doing all he can to reduce scrutiny of his government and making it even easier for the Tories to win majorities on substantially less than 50% of the vote!

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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,383
    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    I have not been able to find any predictions back as far as 2010. I think I expected our recovery from the GFC to be much more difficult than it was with much higher unemployment. I think Osborne's period as Chancellor was really remarkable with extraordinary amounts of luck/skill according to taste. To outgrow the EU for much of the decade when we had by far the largest financial sector and were so dependent upon it for tax revenues and growth was extraordinary, as was the massive increase in employment.

    Looking forward I would predict that, despite Brexit, the UK will once again outperform the EZ average over much of the next decade. Our economy is growing in the right places (finance, law, IT) as well as the wrong ones (gig economy, casual labour giving people unpredictable and miserable lives) and is well placed to keep doing so. I expect the Tories to win the next election too but probably not the one after that. The next Labour PM may just have been elected but might not be in the Commons yet.

    I don't see us avoiding another Scottish referendum for the next decade, sadly. I am confident that it will have the same result as the last one and hopefully be less close. In the more immediate future I will be astonished if Nicola is still first Minister at the end of this coming year.

    I think that Africa will be a source of global concern over the decade, both as the source of large numbers of refugees and as a cause of climate change as burgeoning population growth boosts consumption and the destruction of natural environments. We will spend a lot more of this decade talking about that continent than we did the last one.

    I fear Trump will be re-elected and continue to damage America's long term interests by being an unreliable friend, not a team player and, all to often, just a bully. We should be very careful to keep our distance.

    I think a China crisis is very likely, almost certainly caused by excessive debt but spilling over into politics. My guess is that they will have a tempestuous time.

    More hope and prayer than reality on 2nd referendum result David. Hard to see it going NO again.
    Well I'll do my best and post Nicola the SNP might struggle to keep it together the way they have under her and Salmond.
    Is there any read across from Wales which had essentially been a one party Lab state since devolution, even more so than the SNP has been in Scotland?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,043

    The broad coalition argument for First Past The Post has been destroyed by what’s happened to both the Conservative and Labour parties over the last few years. What it actually does is reward entryism, drive out dissenting views and present the electorate with the choice of leadt worst option.

    it stopped Corbyn becoming PM under any circumstance. Give thanks.
    But it has allowed an unfettered Johnson the opportunity to do exactly as he likes, unchallenged, for the next five years. Fill your boots Boris!
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,124
    Stocky said:

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    Mike, as liberal it`s so frustrating.

    As I tell my local LibDdem group, liberals start from a great position ideologically. We live in a liberal democracy and ideologically I`d estimate that 35% of the electorate are ideologically liberal (50% conservative, 15% collectivist). Yet the LibDems punch below their weight whist the collectivist party (Labour) collects votes from folk who are not ideologically collectivist due to family tradition, union ties etc.

    The LibDems need to dust off their copies of J.S Mill and start there: individual flourishment, equality of status, economically prudent, law-abiding, centre ground on the left/right axis.
    Equally important they need to pick their targets. Labour is the party they had a chance of replacing in 2017 and 2019 but they focused all their fire and ire on the Conservatives. Massive strategic error.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    The system is unrepresentative - just in different ways from time to time.
    No one cared when UKIP got 1 MP for 13% of the vote for 0.15% of the representation in 2015. In fact, many people were moaning that Farage was on QT too often while that discrepancy was in place.

    "Under FPTP good second places are worthless... " was the PB mantra. Now the Lib Dems are doing that, it's a great sign of progress of course, a beacon of light for the future...
    Simply wrong. Many of us have supported PR for a long time.
    Quite. PR has many fairweather supporters but I suspect genuine supporters are overrrpresented on PB.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    malcolmg said:

    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.

    We are doing no better and no worse than other Countries AFAICS.
    Well that’s absolutely no excuse. We should be challenging not hiding behind such fig leafs.
    Get over yourself - focus your energy on those doing less than nothing. All the rest is pathetic virtue signalling.
    No, it is not. The only significant effect we can have on “those doing less than nothing” is to lead by example. Hanging around bleating but they’re worse than us is doing less than nothing.
    We already do that in spades. You be a sucker if you want to - let the rest of us get on with our lives. I'm channelling my inner malcG today as hogmanay approaches.
    You will be all the better for it Felix , onwards and upwards. I look forward to us throwing off the yoke , a bright future awaits.
    Come 2029, the "yoke" wll be on those Scots who thought the hoped-for lighter touch of EU regulation would be preferable to that of London's oppressive tyranny.

    Joining just as the EU started to clamp down tightly to try and protect what it had from further exits. It would take a heart of Stone of Scone.....
    We shall see Mark, I look forward to finding out though.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,841
    felix said:

    Anyhoo - my rant over for the day - blue skies and 20+ degrees here - off to the roof for some rays :)

    Sounds fun, where are you today?

    I woke up to a foot of snow this morning. I’m in Ukraine - not Dubai, for anyone who thought there might be any snow there apart from the indoor ski slope!
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    kle4 said:


    The broad coalition argument for First Past The Post has been destroyed by what’s happened to both the Conservative and Labour parties over the last few years. What it actually does is reward entryism, drive out dissenting views and present the electorate with the choice of leadt worst option.

    even under Corbyn labour were not suggesting changing from FPTP, so even in a hung parliament situation it's not a concession theyd make - do we PR supporters have any hope?

    I don’t see Labour winning power on its own again. It will need to find an accommodation with others. That will mean PR. My sense is that a growing number of Labour supporters understand that.

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    StockyStocky Posts: 9,708
    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    Mike, as liberal it`s so frustrating.

    As I tell my local LibDdem group, liberals start from a great position ideologically. We live in a liberal democracy and ideologically I`d estimate that 35% of the electorate are ideologically liberal (50% conservative, 15% collectivist). Yet the LibDems punch below their weight whist the collectivist party (Labour) collects votes from folk who are not ideologically collectivist due to family tradition, union ties etc.

    The LibDems need to dust off their copies of J.S Mill and start there: individual flourishment, equality of status, economically prudent, law-abiding, centre ground on the left/right axis.
    Equally important they need to pick their targets. Labour is the party they had a chance of replacing in 2017 and 2019 but they focused all their fire and ire on the Conservatives. Massive strategic error.
    It was very disappointing to see Jo Swinson on TV apologising for their time in coalition.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    Charles said:

    OBE for James Graham. Who?

    Ah yes, the playwright who made a star of Dominic Cummings in Brexit: the Uncivil War.

    He’s also got a long list of other credits to his name, both political and non political

    Such a shame you chose to cast doubt on his achievement to make a political dig
    I didnt even notice it was a dig until you said so. You're very sensitive at times.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,124
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    More hope and prayer than reality on 2nd referendum result David. Hard to see it going NO again.
    Well I'll do my best and post Nicola the SNP might struggle to keep it together the way they have under her and Salmond.
    Be interesting to see what damage the trial does. My hope would be Angus Robertson in charge, given unlikely we can get Alex back.
    The gossip in PH does not sound good for Salmond. Most historic sex cases fail because the witnesses/victims are severely damaged and unreliable people who can barely remember or differentiate the number of times they have been abused. The 10 women in this case are not going to be like that. How many will say that they went to Nicola for help?

    Angus Robertson would be an excellent leader, better than anyone currently in Holyrood other than Nicola.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    OBE for James Graham. Who?

    Ah yes, the playwright who made a star of Dominic Cummings in Brexit: the Uncivil War.

    He’s also got a long list of other credits to his name, both political and non political

    Such a shame you chose to cast doubt on his achievement to make a political dig
    I didnt even notice it was a dig until you said so. You're very sensitive at times.
    The elite don't like plebs questioning them distributing baubles among their chums, majority of whom are unknown Hooray Hentry twunts unknown to the public. Next time just doff your cap and cheer loudly.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    edited December 2019
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    Mike, as liberal it`s so frustrating.

    As I tell my local LibDdem group, liberals start from a great position ideologically. We live in a liberal democracy and ideologically I`d estimate that 35% of the electorate are ideologically liberal (50% conservative, 15% collectivist). Yet the LibDems punch below their weight whist the collectivist party (Labour) collects votes from folk who are not ideologically collectivist due to family tradition, union ties etc.

    The LibDems need to dust off their copies of J.S Mill and start there: individual flourishment, equality of status, economically prudent, law-abiding, centre ground on the left/right axis.
    Equally important they need to pick their targets. Labour is the party they had a chance of replacing in 2017 and 2019 but they focused all their fire and ire on the Conservatives. Massive strategic error.
    It was very disappointing to see Jo Swinson on TV apologising for their time in coalition.
    Theyve given up on defending themselves about it. In fairness although I think that's a mistake people still criticise them about it a lot do I understand why, especially with so little continuity with the period now.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FF43 said:

    Did you predict, David, that at the end of the decade you would still be writing always interesting headers for PB?

    One event that I think you missed the significance of had already happened in 2010, which was the Credit Crunch. The big political story of the 2010 was globalisation and liberalism coming under attack, when it had been dominant ten years earlier after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Trump, trade wars, Brexit are all facets of the new nationalism.

    For the next ten years I predict the China and US competition to continue, the UK to be still uncertain of its role in the world to be diminished, and possibly not to be the UK any more. The European Union still hanging on.

    The EU’s future is that of the Ottoman Empire

    It will last far longer than anyone expects, but will increasingly become a backwater.

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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    edited December 2019
    Stocky said:

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    Mike, as liberal it`s so frustrating.

    As I tell my local LibDdem group, liberals start from a great position ideologically. We live in a liberal democracy and ideologically I`d estimate that 35% of the electorate are ideologically liberal (50% conservative, 15% collectivist). Yet the LibDems punch below their weight whist the collectivist party (Labour) collects votes from folk who are not ideologically collectivist due to family tradition, union ties etc.

    The LibDems need to dust off their copies of J.S Mill and start there: individual flourishment, equality of status, economically prudent, law-abiding, centre ground on the left/right axis.

    What the LibDems need more than anything else is a Labour leader who does not scare soft Tories. It’s what Labour needs too, of course.

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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,691
    DavidL said:

    I have not been able to find any predictions back as far as 2010.

    I don't see us avoiding another Scottish referendum for the next decade, sadly. I am confident that it will have the same result as the last one and hopefully be less close. In the more immediate future I will be astonished if Nicola is still first Minister at the end of this coming year.

    [... Other interesting predictions, some of which I share ...]

    If there's another referendum, I am confident independence will win. There isn't a consensus for the Union anymore and the British, not Scottish, crowd only make up a 25% hardcore, not enough to win a50% vote.

    As a somewhat convicted unionist, I wonder if our energies are better spent trying to make a success of independence rather than arguing about process. Brexit is an example to avoid I think. Not only is it a bad idea from my point of view, but Leavers/Tories are going about it in the most cackhanded, divisive and destructive way possible. Can't we do better than that?
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    Jonathan said:

    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.

    It’s probably been the best decade for humanity in the entire history of mankind.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,383
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    A miserable decade, with next to no redeeming events. The U.K. peaked in 2012 with the Olympics. The failure to deal seriously with climate change will damn us. We chose nostalgia and nationalism instead.

    We are doing no better and no worse than other Countries AFAICS.
    Well that’s absolutely no excuse. We should be challenging not hiding behind such fig leafs.
    I don't think that is true.

    In terms of C02 reductions we are some considerable way ahead of any other major European economy - the last time I checked the data.

    In absolute terms France may be lower but that is because of their nuclear sector.

    I think an important priority is to face down a movement of Greenies which does not really engage reason, but just focuses on taking up the most extreme position of anyone, and squawking like parakeets.

    Some of the interviews broadcast during the Extinction Rebellion pillock parade were hugely enlightening - they really are (on the whole) gormless thickies.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,124
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    Stocky said:

    Mr. Observer, the Conservatives got about 9 percentage points more than Labour in 2005 with a majority about 20-30 higher.

    Also, our system is based on seats not percentages. Everyone knows this. If some parties are inept at understanding how this affects, or should affect, campaigning then it's their own damned fault if they do poorly.

    It was the strength of the LDs at GE2005 that made the "system" seem anti-Tory. The decline of the yellows from GE2015 has reversed that
    Mike, as liberal it`s so frustrating.

    As I tell my local LibDdem group, liberals start from a great position ideologically. We live in a liberal democracy and ideologically I`d estimate that 35% of the electorate are ideologically liberal (50% conservative, 15% collectivist). Yet the LibDems punch below their weight whist the collectivist party (Labour) collects votes from folk who are not ideologically collectivist due to family tradition, union ties etc.

    The LibDems need to dust off their copies of J.S Mill and start there: individual flourishment, equality of status, economically prudent, law-abiding, centre ground on the left/right axis.
    Equally important they need to pick their targets. Labour is the party they had a chance of replacing in 2017 and 2019 but they focused all their fire and ire on the Conservatives. Massive strategic error.
    It was very disappointing to see Jo Swinson on TV apologising for their time in coalition.
    Indeed. Clegg, Alexander, Webb, Lamb, they all contributed positively and greatly to the Coalition's success.
This discussion has been closed.