Difficult one in family Jonathan this year, first one without mum who died on Friday. Makes you appreciate life and the important things. The most important thing here is not the politics, but the friendship. Those occasional moments that cut across and connect people who frame the world in different ways. A rare feat today.
I’m afraid I’m struggling to understand this article. Is it saying Labour should continue to oppose Brexit even though it’s impossible, but in doing so it will split the party? Or is it arguing the opposite?
I can't understand it either. de Valera,Tampon Taxation,Collins,Lloyd Georgie,Poll Tax.
I think he is trying to compare the Irish Civil War with today, arguing that Labour should split like Sinn Fein and continue the war like the IRA.
"The majority have no right to do wrong!" - de Valera on the Dail's support for the Anglo-Irish Treaty.
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
Alastair. It is over. Boris has an 80 seat majority and the opposition is in bits
Unless you can come to terms with the reality, I do worry you are going to be in a very unhappy place for a very long time
You seem to be under the impression that the public is happy with Brexit and that it is going to be a success. The public on balance remains of the view that Brexit is a bad idea and the reality of it is not going to improve their view of it.
The country is in a terrible place and it is only going to get worse. The turning point will come when Leavers accept that Brexit is a fiasco. That will, unfortunately, take a while yet.
The public has just given Boris the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher precisely to deliver Brexit. BigG is absolutely right
The public rejected Jeremy Corbyn. It would be a grave mistake to treat the result as an enthusiastic endorsement of Brexit.
The LDs lost a seat net on a revoke Brexit platform, the Tories vote and seat count was up on a deliver Brexit platform and even the Brexit Party got more votes than UKIP did in 2017
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Just popping in to wish everyone a very happy Xmas.
I have been laid low with a very nasty leg infection necessitating bed rest and antibiotics and possible hospitalisation if that does not work. An absolute bummer as I had, amongst other things, planned to do lots of lovely walks in the woods here in Whicham.
Man - or in this case, woman - proposes. God disposes.
Still, 4 days without food and a high fever is one way of getting those pounds off. Every cloud, eh .....?
V impressive local Community Hospital and GP practice here. But the word is that Barrow General Hospital is under acute pressure.
In one of those circle of life things, when I started my pupillage training at the Bar, one of the very first cases my pupil master worked on was a building dispute about the construction of the then new Barrow General Hospital. God knows how any building was done at all as the architects and builders and engineers seemed to spend most of their days writing long letters to each other complaining about how awful everyone else’s work was. One of the barristers on the team was Emily Blunt’s father. We spent the days in a large Portakabin arguing about everything endlessly, with me as the new girl Friday, taking notes, generally being helpful etc and, incidentally, having to grin and bear the appalling sexism and misogyny from the builders who simply could not cope with the existence of a woman about 30 years younger.
When they were together they simply could not resist behaving like 14 year old boys. Individually they were perfectly nice and talked quite lovingly about their families and, often, interestingly about their work. But their brains simply could not compute that behaviour which they would hate if directed at women in their family was also wrong if directed at some other non-family member.
And in the evening we always had lovely big meals in a hotel. As a treat I was told that I could get to choose the wines and, as the builders were paying, I did not stint in my choices - either in quality or quantity. An unusual way to get some sort of wine education but you takes your chances in life.
It would be an irony if I ended up in that wretched hospital all these years later. If I do I will be praying quite fervently for the medical expertise to be better than the building skills.
Hope you feel better soon. It’s always at the worst time, isn’t it?
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
Alastair. It is over. Boris has an 80 seat majority and the opposition is in bits
Unless you can come to terms with the reality, I do worry you are going to be in a very unhappy place for a very long time
You seem to be under the impression that the public is happy with Brexit and that it is going to be a success. The public on balance remains of the view that Brexit is a bad idea and the reality of it is not going to improve their view of it.
The country is in a terrible place and it is only going to get worse. The turning point will come when Leavers accept that Brexit is a fiasco. That will, unfortunately, take a while yet.
The public has just given Boris the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher precisely to deliver Brexit. BigG is absolutely right
The public rejected Jeremy Corbyn. It would be a grave mistake to treat the result as an enthusiastic endorsement of Brexit.
The LDs lost a seat net on a revoke Brexit platform, the Tories vote and seat count was up on a deliver Brexit platform and even the Brexit Party got more votes than UKIP did in 2017
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Keep on keeping on - your leader, who was going to be the country's leader, couldn't even win her constituency. What does your rule book say about leadership if you have no MPs?
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
Alastair. It is over. Boris has an 80 seat majority and the opposition is in bits
Unless you can come to terms with the reality, I do worry you are going to be in a very unhappy place for a very long time
You seem to be under the impression that the public is happy with Brexit and that it is going to be a success. The public on balance remains of the view that Brexit is a bad idea and the reality of it is not going to improve their view of it.
The country is in a terrible place and it is only going to get worse. The turning point will come when Leavers accept that Brexit is a fiasco. That will, unfortunately, take a while yet.
The public has just given Boris the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher precisely to deliver Brexit. BigG is absolutely right
The public rejected Jeremy Corbyn. It would be a grave mistake to treat the result as an enthusiastic endorsement of Brexit.
The LDs lost a seat net on a revoke Brexit platform, the Tories vote and seat count was up on a deliver Brexit platform and even the Brexit Party got more votes than UKIP did in 2017
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Thanks all for the kind thoughts. PB provides healthy distraction despite politics to going quite my way these days. If I were a tad touchy of late, you might have a clue as to why. It was all made somewhat worse by the fact my sister was also diagnosed with breast cancer yesterday. It has been a truly shitty week.
Sorry to hear that Jonathan.
Best wishes to you and your family.
Yesterday we found out that one of my son's left Kidney is failing / failed (more tests in new year)
As you say a pretty shitty week but it does remind us about what is truly important in life.
As an old colleague used to say "enjoy life, this aint no dress rehearsal"
I’m afraid I’m struggling to understand this article. Is it saying Labour should continue to oppose Brexit even though it’s impossible, but in doing so it will split the party? Or is it arguing the opposite?
I can't understand it either. de Valera,Tampon Taxation,Collins,Lloyd Georgie,Poll Tax.
I think he is trying to compare the Irish Civil War with today, arguing that Labour should split like Sinn Fein and continue the war like the IRA.
"The majority have no right to do wrong!" - de Valera on the Dail's support for the Anglo-Irish Treaty.
I thought the article was excellent undecipherable waffle. Christmas celebrations overdone maybe.
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
Alastair. It is over. Boris has an 80 seat majority and the opposition is in bits
Unless you can come to terms with the reality, I do worry you are going to be in a very unhappy place for a very long time
You seem to be under the impression that the public is happy with Brexit and that it is going to be a success. The public on balance remains of the view that Brexit is a bad idea and the reality of it is not going to improve their view of it.
The country is in a terrible place and it is only going to get worse. The turning point will come when Leavers accept that Brexit is a fiasco. That will, unfortunately, take a while yet.
The public has just given Boris the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher precisely to deliver Brexit. BigG is absolutely right
The public rejected Jeremy Corbyn. It would be a grave mistake to treat the result as an enthusiastic endorsement of Brexit.
The LDs lost a seat net on a revoke Brexit platform, the Tories vote and seat count was up on a deliver Brexit platform and even the Brexit Party got more votes than UKIP did in 2017
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Keep on keeping on - your leader, who was going to be the country's leader, couldn't even win her constituency. What does your rule book say about leadership if you have no MPs?
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
Alastair. It is over. Boris has an 80 seat majority and the opposition is in bits
Unless you can come to terms with the reality, I do worry you are going to be in a very unhappy place for a very long time
You seem to be under the impression that the public is happy with Brexit and that it is going to be a success. The public on balance remains of the view that Brexit is a bad idea and the reality of it is not going to improve their view of it.
The country is in a terrible place and it is only going to get worse. The turning point will come when Leavers accept that Brexit is a fiasco. That will, unfortunately, take a while yet.
The public has just given Boris the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher precisely to deliver Brexit. BigG is absolutely right
The public rejected Jeremy Corbyn. It would be a grave mistake to treat the result as an enthusiastic endorsement of Brexit.
The LDs lost a seat net on a revoke Brexit platform, the Tories vote and seat count was up on a deliver Brexit platform and even the Brexit Party got more votes than UKIP did in 2017
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Tories 365 seats LDs 11 seats
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
I’m afraid I’m struggling to understand this article. Is it saying Labour should continue to oppose Brexit even though it’s impossible, but in doing so it will split the party? Or is it arguing the opposite?
I can't understand it either. de Valera,Tampon Taxation,Collins,Lloyd Georgie,Poll Tax.
I think he is trying to compare the Irish Civil War with today, arguing that Labour should split like Sinn Fein and continue the war like the IRA.
"The majority have no right to do wrong!" - de Valera on the Dail's support for the Anglo-Irish Treaty.
I thought the article was excellent undecipherable waffle. Christmas celebrations overdone maybe.
You have to pay attention. Otherwise you lose the plot.
Reminds me of "Knives Out". Circuitous, red herrings, allusions, and then the denouement where suddenly all is clear. Well done.
What is now clear is why you LibDems got your strategy so wrong. Taking in sundry riff raff and strays runs its own risks but can always be justified with waffle 'cos the plebs will never understand but won't like to say. That would make me a pleb in your eyes 'cept I'm saying.
Just popping in to wish everyone a very happy Xmas.
I have been laid low with a very nasty leg infection necessitating bed rest and antibiotics and possible hospitalisation if that does not work. An absolute bummer as I had, amongst other things, planned to do lots of lovely walks in the woods here in Whicham.
Man - or in this case, woman - proposes. God disposes.
Still, 4 days without food and a high fever is one way of getting those pounds off. Every cloud, eh .....?
V impressive local Community Hospital and GP practice here. But the word is that Barrow General Hospital is under acute pressure.
In one of those circle of life things, when I started my pupillage training at the Bar, one of the very first cases my pupil master worked on was a building dispute about the construction of the then new Barrow General Hospital. God knows how any building was done at all as the architects and builders and engineers seemed to spend most of their days writing long letters to each other complaining about how awful everyone else’s work was. One of the barristers on the team was Emily Blunt’s father. We spent the days in a large Portakabin arguing about everything endlessly, with me as the new girl Friday, taking notes, generally being helpful etc and, incidentally, having to grin and bear the appalling sexism and misogyny from the builders who simply could not cope with the existence of a woman about 30 years younger.
When they were together they simply could not resist behaving like 14 year old boys. Individually they were perfectly nice and talked quite lovingly about their families and, often, interestingly about their work. But their brains simply could not compute that behaviour which they would hate if directed at women in their family was also wrong if directed at some other non-family member.
And in the evening we always had lovely big meals in a hotel. As a treat I was told that I could get to choose the wines and, as the builders were paying, I did not stint in my choices - either in quality or quantity. An unusual way to get some sort of wine education but you takes your chances in life.
It would be an irony if I ended up in that wretched hospital all these years later. If I do I will be praying quite fervently for the medical expertise to be better than the building skills.
You, too ?
All the best to those who are ill - and for anything serious, make sure to get a second opinion (something which saved my kidney a few decades back).
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
Alastair. It is over. Boris has an 80 seat majority and the opposition is in bits
Unless you can come to terms with the reality, I do worry you are going to be in a very unhappy place for a very long time
You seem to be under the impression that the public is happy with Brexit and that it is going to be a success. The public on balance remains of the view that Brexit is a bad idea and the reality of it is not going to improve their view of it.
The country is in a terrible place and it is only going to get worse. The turning point will come when Leavers accept that Brexit is a fiasco. That will, unfortunately, take a while yet.
The public has just given Boris the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher precisely to deliver Brexit. BigG is absolutely right
The public rejected Jeremy Corbyn. It would be a grave mistake to treat the result as an enthusiastic endorsement of Brexit.
The LDs lost a seat net on a revoke Brexit platform, the Tories vote and seat count was up on a deliver Brexit platform and even the Brexit Party got more votes than UKIP did in 2017
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Tories 365 seats LDs 11 seats
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Tories won nearly 14.0 million votes LDs won only 3.7 million votes
I’m afraid I’m struggling to understand this article. Is it saying Labour should continue to oppose Brexit even though it’s impossible, but in doing so it will split the party? Or is it arguing the opposite?
I can't understand it either. de Valera,Tampon Taxation,Collins,Lloyd Georgie,Poll Tax.
I think he is trying to compare the Irish Civil War with today, arguing that Labour should split like Sinn Fein and continue the war like the IRA.
"The majority have no right to do wrong!" - de Valera on the Dail's support for the Anglo-Irish Treaty.
I thought the article was excellent undecipherable waffle. Christmas celebrations overdone maybe.
You have to pay attention. Otherwise you lose the plot.
I tried believe me; some/ better punctuation might have helped. I think the plot was lost elesewhere.
On topic, Labour can still push for remaining in a customs union and/or the single market but what the election result confirmed was that voters want the Brexit they voted for delivered and there can be no question of even considering rejoining the full EU for at least a generation
That bit about not joining the EU for at least a generation. Got any facts to support such wishful thinking?
Here are some facts. Uncomfortable for some.
There no way debate and vote in 2016 proved the trade deal we had with EU has been holding us back as a nation, there’s no way our current trade trade deal with EU has been holding us back as a nation, so how can you prove a non fact is fact?
Even without the guts to call a 2nd ref on the new deal with EU, what is certain to happen is the old trade deal with EU and new trade deal with EU WILL put side by side and compared on basis which delivers most for the UK. This is organically quite naturally what happens next with any change or revolution, there is nothing you can do to prevent this.
Sorry if you were unaware this is what happens next, but that’s your error. Done and dusted? this is only just getting started.
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
I’m afraid I’m struggling to understand this article. Is it saying Labour should continue to oppose Brexit even though it’s impossible, but in doing so it will split the party? Or is it arguing the opposite?
I can't understand it either. de Valera,Tampon Taxation,Collins,Lloyd Georgie,Poll Tax.
I think he is trying to compare the Irish Civil War with today, arguing that Labour should split like Sinn Fein and continue the war like the IRA.
“ I think he is trying to compare the Irish Civil War with today, arguing that Labour should split like Sinn Fein and continue the war like the IRA.‘
Yes.
No surrender no surrender no surrender to the ERG.
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
Absolutely agree with you on where this is going.
The wake up point for many is realising it’s not even a matter of democracy that it goes ahead.
It never was in or out, it always was trade deal for trade deal. Democracy is go off and negotiate a better deal, but I want to scrutinise it and a final say, I am not giving you a blank cheque. Brexiteers stand accused of passing that blank cheque off as good democracy. And this like a ghost of Christmas future is coming back to haunt them.
Because it has been sold as in or out rather than one trade deal for another, it means proper democracy is not being respected by the brexiteers. Instead the original vote to leave EU and a general election win over a rubbish opposition of clueless leaderless political juveniles is being used as a blank cheque for whatever negotiation or change an executive wishes to make. There is no completion of the democratic process begun in 2016 doing it this way. There can be no healing process doing it this way. It’s against all the tenets of democracy, where majorities need to reach out to minorities, not push through such major change this way.
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
And what the old fail to realise is that the young feel that way ?
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
Alastair. It is over. Boris has an 80 seat majority and the opposition is in bits
Unless you can come to terms with the reality, I do worry you are going to be in a very unhappy place for a very long time
You seem to be under the impression that the public is happy with Brexit and that it is going to be a success. The public on balance remains of the view that Brexit is a bad idea and the reality of it is not going to improve their view of it.
The country is in a terrible place and it is only going to get worse. The turning point will come when Leavers accept that Brexit is a fiasco. That will, unfortunately, take a while yet.
The public has just given Boris the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher precisely to deliver Brexit. BigG is absolutely right
The public rejected Jeremy Corbyn. It would be a grave mistake to treat the result as an enthusiastic endorsement of Brexit.
The LDs lost a seat net on a revoke Brexit platform, the Tories vote and seat count was up on a deliver Brexit platform and even the Brexit Party got more votes than UKIP did in 2017
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Tories 365 seats LDs 11 seats
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Tories won nearly 14.0 million votes LDs won only 3.7 million votes
Tories got 365 seats for their 14m votes - 38,000 per seat. LibDems got 11 seats for their 3.7m votes - 336,000 per seat.
If you don't see any thing wrong with that you are blind to the dangers facing UK democracy. Loss of trust in politicians. Loss of trust in political institutions. Loss of legitimacy. Complacency and hubris by the "winners". Further threat to political institutions by the "winners". UK democracy is more fragile than you realise.
On topic, Labour can still push for remaining in a customs union and/or the single market but what the election result confirmed was that voters want the Brexit they voted for delivered and there can be no question of even considering rejoining the full EU for at least a generation
That bit about not joining the EU for at least a generation. Got any facts to support such wishful thinking?
Here are some facts. Uncomfortable for some.
There no way debate and vote in 2016 proved the trade deal we had with EU has been holding us back as a nation, there’s no way our current trade trade deal with EU has been holding us back as a nation, so how can you prove a non fact is fact?
Even without the guts to call a 2nd ref on the new deal with EU, what is certain to happen is the old trade deal with EU and new trade deal with EU WILL put side by side and compared on basis which delivers most for the UK. This is organically quite naturally what happens next with any change or revolution, there is nothing you can do to prevent this.
Sorry if you were unaware this is what happens next, but that’s your error. Done and dusted? this is only just getting started.
The EU is over and we have to adapt to a new future for better or worse
The problem labour have, and indeed had, is they cannot accept we are leaving the EU and until they do they will have a very poor future, indeed I am not at all sure we will see labour as constituted in 2019 fight another election
Corbyn's address to the nation today was unbounded misery and even despair while Boris was one of hope, optimism and generally feel good
Why Corbyn leads labour into 2020 I have no idea but he is the first one that needs to go and go now to even start a dialogue for labour's future
I’m afraid I’m struggling to understand this article. Is it saying Labour should continue to oppose Brexit even though it’s impossible, but in doing so it will split the party? Or is it arguing the opposite?
I can't understand it either. de Valera,Tampon Taxation,Collins,Lloyd Georgie,Poll Tax.
I think he is trying to compare the Irish Civil War with today, arguing that Labour should split like Sinn Fein and continue the war like the IRA.
"The majority have no right to do wrong!" - de Valera on the Dail's support for the Anglo-Irish Treaty.
I thought the article was excellent undecipherable waffle. Christmas celebrations overdone maybe.
Thank you for the “excellent” but I agree you have overdone the celebrations if the repeated argument under different metaphor slipped you by.
Is this the dawning of the age of Aquarius? Every time we have this discussion there’s always some PBer astonished that all the heavens are going to move, and disbelieving of a 26K cycle marching backwards through 13 star signs.
Next time we lose the polestar?
I was thinking the other day, will we have to have all our satellite dishes repositioned?
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
On topic, Labour can still push for remaining in a customs union and/or the single market but what the election result confirmed was that voters want the Brexit they voted for delivered and there can be no question of even considering rejoining the full EU for at least a generation
That bit about not joining the EU for at least a generation. Got any facts to support such wishful thinking?
Here are some facts. Uncomfortable for some.
There no way debate and vote in 2016 proved the trade deal we had with EU has been holding us back as a nation, there’s no way our current trade trade deal with EU has been holding us back as a nation, so how can you prove a non fact is fact?
Even without the guts to call a 2nd ref on the new deal with EU, what is certain to happen is the old trade deal with EU and new trade deal with EU WILL put side by side and compared on basis which delivers most for the UK. This is organically quite naturally what happens next with any change or revolution, there is nothing you can do to prevent this.
Sorry if you were unaware this is what happens next, but that’s your error. Done and dusted? this is only just getting started.
The EU is over and we have to adapt to a new future for better or worse
The problem labour have, and indeed had, is they cannot accept we are leaving the EU and until they do they will have a very poor future, indeed I am not at all sure we will see labour as constituted in 2019 fight another election
Corbyn's address to the nation today was unbounded misery and even despair while Boris was one of hope, optimism and generally feel good
Why Corbyn leads labour into 2020 I have no idea but he is the first one that needs to go and go now to even start a dialogue for labour's future
I have to politely disagree on where this is heading.
As voters wake up to what a naff piece of haphazard democracy or downright sneaky politicking achieved brexit, they will feel like they’ve been had. And they will seek to do something about it at every ballot box presented to them.
Unless of course does make the country wealthier year on year not poorer year on year.
It never was in or out, it always was trade deal for trade deal. Democracy is go off and negotiate a better deal, but I want to scrutinise it and a final say, I am not giving you a blank cheque. Brexiteers stand accused of passing that blank cheque off as good democracy. And this like a ghost of Christmas future is coming back to haunt them. 👻
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
I expect within six months or so love of the EU will be very much reduced in the UK and certainly a minority
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
Are you saying its a world that wants to be our friend, or rip us off?
Is this the dawning of the age of Aquarius? Every time we have this discussion there’s always some PBer astonished that all the heavens are going to move, and disbelieving of a 26K cycle marching backwards through 13 star signs.
Next time we lose the polestar?
I was thinking the other day, will we have to have all our satellite dishes repositioned?
The Vernal Equinox is still in Pisces, so the Age of Aquarius won't come about for a couple of centuries!
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
The EU trades with the world and engages with the world. It is a power in the world.
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
Alastair. It is over. Boris has an 80 seat majority and the opposition is in bits
Unless you can come to terms with the reality, I do worry you are going to be in a very unhappy place for a very long time
You seem to be under the impression that the public is happy with Brexit and that it is going to be a success. The public on balance remains of the view that Brexit is a bad idea and the reality of it is not going to improve their view of it.
The country is in a terrible place and it is only going to get worse. The turning point will come when Leavers accept that Brexit is a fiasco. That will, unfortunately, take a while yet.
The public has just given Boris the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher precisely to deliver Brexit. BigG is absolutely right
The public rejected Jeremy Corbyn. It would be a grave mistake to treat the result as an enthusiastic endorsement of Brexit.
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Tories 365 seats LDs 11 seats
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Tories won nearly 14.0 million votes LDs won only 3.7 million votes
Tories got 365 seats for their 14m votes - 38,000 per seat. LibDems got 11 seats for their 3.7m votes - 336,000 per seat.
If you don't see any thing wrong with that you are blind to the dangers facing UK democracy. Loss of trust in politicians. Loss of trust in political institutions. Loss of legitimacy. Complacency and hubris by the "winners". Further threat to political institutions by the "winners". UK democracy is more fragile than you realise.
More people voted for the Tories than for LibDems. The LibDems lost their leader don't forget!
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
Are you saying its a world that wants to be our friend, or rip us off?
Well I don't think the UK pays membership fees to be part of planet Earth and the UK's trade balance is a lot better with non EU countries.
Well, today is Christmas Eve and we have learnt today of posters losing loved ones, suffering illnesses, or family receiving worrying news, and so as we go into Christmas Day I just want to end my posts for the next couple of days with best wishes to all posters and special thoughts to those in personal pain or grief.
No politics for me for the next few days as our family gather together for Christmas
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
The EU trades with the world and engages with the world. It is a power in the world.
The UK destiny is to be a US lackey or an orphan.
I always laugh when somebody says the EU is a power in the world. Give us some examples of this power?
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
I expect within six months or so love of the EU will be very much reduced in the UK and certainly a minority
Maybe and maybe not.
But I hope EU supporters at least make a more rational case than the 'there are no strawberries in the shops' type scare stories we've had for the last 42 months.
The EU is over and we have to adapt to a new future for better or worse
The problem labour have, and indeed had, is they cannot accept we are leaving the EU and until they do they will have a very poor future, indeed I am not at all sure we will see labour as constituted in 2019 fight another election
There's a lot of time between now and the next election; Labour may be discombobulated right now, but FPTP exerts enormous pressure on parties to stay together, and once we've left there will be plenty of opportunity for events (dear boy, events) to buffet the Conservatives, shape the landscape, and suggest a post-Brexit line for Labour to take. Whether Labour tack to the centre or stick with a Corbynite course it's hard for me to see them seriously suggesting actual Rejoin; though of course they'll have plenty of opportunity to criticise the specifics of whatever trade deal and future relationship Boris gives us.
On topic, Labour can still push for remaining in a customs union and/or the single market but what the election result confirmed was that voters want the Brexit they voted for delivered and there can be no question of even considering rejoining the full EU for at least a generation
That bit about not joining the EU for at least a generation. Got any facts to support such wishful thinking?
Here are some facts. Uncomfortable for some.
There no way debate and vote in 2016 proved the trade deal we had with EU has been holding us back as a nation, there’s no way our current trade trade deal with EU has been holding us back as a nation, so how can you prove a non fact is fact?
Sorry if you were unaware this is what happens next, but that’s your error. Done and dusted? this is only just getting started.
The EU is over and we have to adapt to a new future for better or worse
The problem labour have, and indeed had, is they cannot accept we are leaving the EU and until they do they will have a very poor future, indeed I am not at all sure we will see labour as constituted in 2019 fight another election
Corbyn's address to the nation today was unbounded misery and even despair while Boris was one of hope, optimism and generally feel good
Why Corbyn leads labour into 2020 I have no idea but he is the first one that needs to go and go now to even start a dialogue for labour's future
I have to politely disagree on where this is heading.
As voters wake up to what a naff piece of haphazard democracy or downright sneaky politicking achieved brexit, they will feel like they’ve been had. And they will seek to do something about it at every ballot box presented to them.
Unless of course does make the country wealthier year on year not poorer year on year.
It never was in or out, it always was trade deal for trade deal. Democracy is go off and negotiate a better deal, but I want to scrutinise it and a final say, I am not giving you a blank cheque. Brexiteers stand accused of passing that blank cheque off as good democracy. And this like a ghost of Christmas future is coming back to haunt them. 👻
I regret you will have no influence as long as Boris has a 80 majority (124 for the WDA) and a five year term
It is harsh, but you need to look at the mess labour have made of it.
Just imagine if those labour mps who are now out of office had their time back how much a majority TM would have had for her deal if they had voted yes, ,and we would already be out, Boris would not be PM, and they would probably still be in office.
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
The EU trades with the world and engages with the world. It is a power in the world.
The UK destiny is to be a US lackey or an orphan.
I always laugh when somebody says the EU is a power in the world. Give us some examples of this power?
Apple’s $13bn fine ?
I’ll be impressed should Boris manage to emulate that....
Merry Christmas everyone. There seems to too much loss amongst PB'ers this year, including myself. Nevertheless I am having a good time with family and so on. So I don't know...
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
The EU trades with the world and engages with the world. It is a power in the world.
The UK destiny is to be a US lackey or an orphan.
Revealing how you think a UK with one of the largest economies and cultural powers in the world will be unable to trade and engage with the rest of the world.
Perhaps you would like to explain how the UK was able to trade and engage with the world prior to 1973 ?
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
The EU trades with the world and engages with the world. It is a power in the world.
The UK destiny is to be a US lackey or an orphan.
Revealing how you think a UK with one of the largest economies and cultural powers in the world will be unable to trade and engage with the rest of the world.
Perhaps you would like to explain how the UK was able to trade and engage with the world prior to 1973 ?
Yawn. The question is rather will it trade/engage with the rest of the world more, or less successfully post Brexit. The idea that is might simply cease to do so is imbecilic.
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
If the world out there includes Trump's America, Xi's China, Modi's India and Bin Salman's Saudi we already seem to be sooking up to them before leaving the EU. Will Brexit enable a) less bumsucking b) more bumsucking or c) about the same amount of bumsucking to these lovely people?
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
The rebate should have gone a long time ago. It was poison. Major, blair, brown and Cameron the very definition of cowardice for not getting rid of all the rebate.
Why would they wish to be members of a cooperative and not want to contribute fair share?
Under original rules we joined the common market the contribution arrangement was calculated differently, UK was arguably contributing too much, hence the rebate agreed with the Thatcher government. When the calculation was changed to be based on GDP for a stronger sense of fairness, in recent years U.K. definitely thanks to the rebate contributing too little.
The irony here is, the commerce friendly custom and admin busting arrangements decades of British governments have helped to build, and all the benefits of the free movement of labour, there’s one country that has profited and benefitted from more than any other and that’s the U.K. the nation now walking away from it.
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
The EU trades with the world and engages with the world. It is a power in the world.
The UK destiny is to be a US lackey or an orphan.
Revealing how you think a UK with one of the largest economies and cultural powers in the world will be unable to trade and engage with the rest of the world.
Perhaps you would like to explain how the UK was able to trade and engage with the world prior to 1973 ?
Yawn. The question is rather will it trade/engage with the rest of the world more, or less successfully post Brexit. The idea that is might simply cease to do so is imbecilic.
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
If the world out there includes Trump's America, Xi's China, Modi's India and Bin Salman's Saudi we already seem to be sooking up to them before leaving the EU. Will Brexit enable a) less bumsucking b) more bumsucking or c) about the same amount of bumsucking to these lovely people?
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
The EU trades with the world and engages with the world. It is a power in the world.
The UK destiny is to be a US lackey or an orphan.
Revealing how you think a UK with one of the largest economies and cultural powers in the world will be unable to trade and engage with the rest of the world.
Perhaps you would like to explain how the UK was able to trade and engage with the world prior to 1973 ?
Yawn. The question is rather will it trade/engage with the rest of the world more, or less successfully post Brexit. The idea that is might simply cease to do so is imbecilic.
So you think Barnesian is being imbecilic.
You are quite right.
I see you’ve adopted the Johnsonian mode of discourse.
Anyway, enough of this. I have (absurdly at my age) stockings to fill...
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
The EU trades with the world and engages with the world. It is a power in the world.
The UK destiny is to be a US lackey or an orphan.
Revealing how you think a UK with one of the largest economies and cultural powers in the world will be unable to trade and engage with the rest of the world.
Perhaps you would like to explain how the UK was able to trade and engage with the world prior to 1973 ?
73 didn’t happen on a whim. We were a trading nation in decline before 73, that’s why U.K. so keen to join it.
Perhaps you can explain how the U.K. reverses it’s decline by leaving it?
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
If the world out there includes Trump's America, Xi's China, Modi's India and Bin Salman's Saudi we already seem to be sooking up to them before leaving the EU. Will Brexit enable a) less bumsucking b) more bumsucking or c) about the same amount of bumsucking to these lovely people?
You forgot to mention Putin Russia.
Is there any reason for that connected to Alex Salmond ?
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
If the world out there includes Trump's America, Xi's China, Modi's India and Bin Salman's Saudi we already seem to be sooking up to them before leaving the EU. Will Brexit enable a) less bumsucking b) more bumsucking or c) about the same amount of bumsucking to these lovely people?
You forgot to mention Putin Russia.
Is there any reason for that connected to Alex Salmond ?
Do you have Putin down as left of centre or right of centre
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
The EU trades with the world and engages with the world. It is a power in the world.
The UK destiny is to be a US lackey or an orphan.
Revealing how you think a UK with one of the largest economies and cultural powers in the world will be unable to trade and engage with the rest of the world.
Perhaps you would like to explain how the UK was able to trade and engage with the world prior to 1973 ?
Yawn. The question is rather will it trade/engage with the rest of the world more, or less successfully post Brexit. The idea that is might simply cease to do so is imbecilic.
So you think Barnesian is being imbecilic.
You are quite right.
I see you’ve adopted the Johnsonian mode of discourse.
Anyway, enough of this. I have (absurdly at my age) stockings to fill...
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
The EU trades with the world and engages with the world. It is a power in the world.
The UK destiny is to be a US lackey or an orphan.
Revealing how you think a UK with one of the largest economies and cultural powers in the world will be unable to trade and engage with the rest of the world.
Perhaps you would like to explain how the UK was able to trade and engage with the world prior to 1973 ?
73 didn’t happen on a whim. We were a trading nation in decline before 73, that’s why U.K. so keen to join it.
Perhaps you can explain how the U.K. reverses it’s decline by leaving it?
To be honest, and I've been saying this on PB for a decade now (how times flies), I think the UK needs to live within its means and take responsibility for its actions.
Leaving the EU encourages both things.
And when you have to live within your means and take responsibility for your actions many lessons are learned and many things consequently flow.
So I don't expect the next decade to be any 'land of milk and honey' but it might prepare us better for the decades which come after.
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
If the world out there includes Trump's America, Xi's China, Modi's India and Bin Salman's Saudi we already seem to be sooking up to them before leaving the EU. Will Brexit enable a) less bumsucking b) more bumsucking or c) about the same amount of bumsucking to these lovely people?
You forgot to mention Putin Russia.
Is there any reason for that connected to Alex Salmond ?
I thought it was only rich Russian expats that Britain Trump was sooking up to, and the UK was still keeping up the pretence of empty sabre rattling with the raggedy old bear? Anyway, away from individual ex politicians and back to the policy of the country of which we are citizens, for better or worse..
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
If the world out there includes Trump's America, Xi's China, Modi's India and Bin Salman's Saudi we already seem to be sooking up to them before leaving the EU. Will Brexit enable a) less bumsucking b) more bumsucking or c) about the same amount of bumsucking to these lovely people?
You forgot to mention Putin Russia.
Is there any reason for that connected to Alex Salmond ?
Do you have Putin down as left of centre or right of centre
Neither.
I'm not sure Russia has ever developed a standard Western political system.
What it has always had is either rule of strong men or weakness.
I’m afraid I’m struggling to understand this article. Is it saying Labour should continue to oppose Brexit even though it’s impossible, but in doing so it will split the party? Or is it arguing the opposite?
I can't understand it either. de Valera,Tampon Taxation,Collins,Lloyd Georgie,Poll Tax.
I think he is trying to compare the Irish Civil War with today, arguing that Labour should split like Sinn Fein and continue the war like the IRA.
“ I think he is trying to compare the Irish Civil War with today, arguing that Labour should split like Sinn Fein and continue the war like the IRA.‘
Yes.
No surrender no surrender no surrender to the ERG.
At what point do you predict the Real and Provisional Labour split, with Provisional Labour resorting to the armalite?
So sorry to hear the news from both @Jonathan and @MarqueeMark - sending you and your family all best wishes.
Times like this, seeing people from all walks of life and political views coming together to commiserate or celebrate the festive period is a fitting reminder. There really is more that unites us than divides us. Merry Christmas all.
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
If the world out there includes Trump's America, Xi's China, Modi's India and Bin Salman's Saudi we already seem to be sooking up to them before leaving the EU. Will Brexit enable a) less bumsucking b) more bumsucking or c) about the same amount of bumsucking to these lovely people?
You forgot to mention Putin Russia.
Is there any reason for that connected to Alex Salmond ?
I thought it was only rich Russian expats that Britain Trump was sooking up to, and the UK was still keeping up the pretence of empty sabre rattling with the raggedy old bear? Anyway, away from individual ex politicians and back to the policy of the country of which we are citizens, for better or worse..
So what is the currency policy of the SNP in its brave new world.
Will it be sooking up to the Bank of England in London or will it be sooking up to the European Central Bank in Frankfurt ?
Difficult one in family Jonathan this year, first one without mum who died on Friday. Makes you appreciate life and the important things. The most important thing here is not the politics, but the friendship. Those occasional moments that cut across and connect people who frame the world in different ways. A rare feat today.
I'm so sorry, Jonathan. All the very best - remember her in her happiest days.
So what is the currency policy of the SNP in its brave new world.
Will it be sooking up to the Bank of England in London or will it be sooking up to the European Central Bank in Frankfurt ?
I note that you've not made the slightest attempt to answer my very-much-not rhetorical question. On that basis I can't really be arsed with weary old PB tropes about Scotland for the umpteenth time. Have a good Christmas.
So what is the currency policy of the SNP in its brave new world.
Will it be sooking up to the Bank of England in London or will it be sooking up to the European Central Bank in Frankfurt ?
I note that you've not made the slightest attempt to answer my very-much-not rhetorical question. On that basis I can't really be arsed with weary old PB tropes about Scotland for the umpteenth time. Have a good Christmas.
Well if you want an answer then I'll say that there's a whole world out there and you have to deal with it as it is even though there might be parts and people you don't like.
Which is what makes my currency comment so relevant - an independent Scotland will have to deal with the currency issue, it wont go away.
I’m afraid I’m struggling to understand this article. Is it saying Labour should continue to oppose Brexit even though it’s impossible, but in doing so it will split the party? Or is it arguing the opposite?
I can't understand it either. de Valera,Tampon Taxation,Collins,Lloyd Georgie,Poll Tax.
I think he is trying to compare the Irish Civil War with today, arguing that Labour should split like Sinn Fein and continue the war like the IRA.
"The majority have no right to do wrong!" - de Valera on the Dail's support for the Anglo-Irish Treaty.
I thought the article was excellent undecipherable waffle. Christmas celebrations overdone maybe.
Thank you for the “excellent” but I agree you have overdone the celebrations if the repeated argument under different metaphor slipped you by.
I’m afraid I’m struggling to understand this article. Is it saying Labour should continue to oppose Brexit even though it’s impossible, but in doing so it will split the party? Or is it arguing the opposite?
I can't understand it either. de Valera,Tampon Taxation,Collins,Lloyd Georgie,Poll Tax.
I think he is trying to compare the Irish Civil War with today, arguing that Labour should split like Sinn Fein and continue the war like the IRA.
"The majority have no right to do wrong!" - de Valera on the Dail's support for the Anglo-Irish Treaty.
I thought the article was excellent undecipherable waffle. Christmas celebrations overdone maybe.
Thank you for the “excellent” but I agree you have overdone the celebrations if the repeated argument under different metaphor slipped you by.
'Twas your celebrations I was referring to, but I do see now that my last sentence was ambiguous . Your article outdid my ambiguity by a considerable factor. Repetition is unnecessary if ambiguity is avoided.
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
Alastair. It is over. Boris has an 80 seat majority and the opposition is in bits
You seem to be under the impression that the public is happy with Brexit and that it is going to be a success. The public on balance remains of the view that Brexit is a bad idea and the reality of it is not going to improve their view of it.
The country is in a terrible place and it is only going to get worse. The turning point will come when Leavers accept that Brexit is a fiasco. That will, unfortunately, take a while yet.
The public has just given Boris the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher precisely to deliver Brexit. BigG is absolutely right
The public rejected Jeremy Corbyn. It would be a grave mistake to treat the result as an enthusiastic endorsement of Brexit.
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Tories 365 seats LDs 11 seats
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Tories won nearly 14.0 million votes LDs won only 3.7 million votes
Tories got 365 seats for their 14m votes - 38,000 per seat. LibDems got 11 seats for their 3.7m votes - 336,000 per seat.
If you don't see any thing wrong with that you are blind to the dangers facing UK democracy. Loss of trust in politicians. Loss of trust in political institutions. Loss of legitimacy. Complacency and hubris by the "winners". Further threat to political institutions by the "winners". UK democracy is more fragile than you realise.
More people voted for the Tories than for LibDems. The LibDems lost their leader don't forget!
He never did answer my question re LD rules on leadership if/ when they have no MPs.
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
The rebate should have gone a long time ago. It was poison. Major, blair, brown and Cameron the very definition of cowardice for not getting rid of all the rebate.
Why would they wish to be members of a cooperative and not want to contribute fair share?
Under original rules we joined the common market the contribution arrangement was calculated differently, UK was arguably contributing too much, hence the rebate agreed with the Thatcher government. When the calculation was changed to be based on GDP for a stronger sense of fairness, in recent years U.K. definitely thanks to the rebate contributing too little.
The irony here is, the commerce friendly custom and admin busting arrangements decades of British governments have helped to build, and all the benefits of the free movement of labour, there’s one country that has profited and benefitted from more than any other and that’s the U.K. the nation now walking away from it.
You obviously inhabit your own fairy tale world, a very scary fairy tale world. Do remember to look under your bed tonight, doubt you'll see Santa though.
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Hmm ... Re your last sentence, I don’t want to be argumentative... (well I do but that’s down to pain, drugs and a very disrupted sleep pattern) ..... but most citizens of quite a few European states did not feel like citizens of that state before it was created. Many felt more loyal to their local region or whatever and may have paid no attention to the national authority at all. See Italy, for example.
It’s a bit of a chicken and egg situation. In practice there has been more action from the top down than from the bottom up. Very few states were created as a result of people proclaiming themselves a demos and the authorities going “Righto: we’ll create a state then to accommodate your wishes.” It’s tended to be the other way around. In that respect, the EU project has rather been with the grain of European history than some awful ghastly imposition on it.
Of course one example of a people very insistently demanding that they be treated as a demos and get their own state was in Northern Ireland. Which is not an example anyone sane should want to follow. (And yeah before @Charles pops up, I know it’s not a separate state legally but in practice they got pretty much all the powers of a state (keeping uppity natives under control, a ludicrously overblown Parliament building, the right to make their own laws) while imposing the costs on someone else.)
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
The EU trades with the world and engages with the world. It is a power in the world.
The UK destiny is to be a US lackey or an orphan.
Revealing how you think a UK with one of the largest economies and cultural powers in the world will be unable to trade and engage with the rest of the world.
Perhaps you would like to explain how the UK was able to trade and engage with the world prior to 1973 ?
Yawn. The question is rather will it trade/engage with the rest of the world more, or less successfully post Brexit. The idea that is might simply cease to do so is imbecilic.
So you think Barnesian is being imbecilic.
You are quite right.
I see you’ve adopted the Johnsonian mode of discourse.
Anyway, enough of this. I have (absurdly at my age) stockings to fill...
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
Alastair. It is over. Boris has an 80 seat majority and the opposition is in bits
Unless you can come to terms with the reality, I do worry you are going to be in a very unhappy place for a very long time
You seem to be
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
The rebate should have gone a long time ago. It was poison. Major, blair, brown and Cameron the very definition of cowardice for not getting rid of all the rebate.
Why would they wish to be members of a cooperative and not want to contribute fair share?
Under original rules we joined the common market the contribution arrangement was calculated differently, UK was arguably contributing too much, hence the rebate agreed with the Thatcher government. When the calculation was changed to be based on GDP for a stronger sense of fairness, in recent years U.K. definitely thanks to the rebate contributing too little.
The irony here is, the commerce friendly custom and admin busting arrangements decades of British governments have helped to build, and all the benefits of the free movement of labour, there’s one country that has profited and benefitted from more than any other and that’s the U.K. the nation now walking away from it.
We’ve been net contributors for all but one single year of our membership. It was a dreadfully poor deal sweetened by the rebate to make it merely a poor deal. The good thing about the rebate is once we are out there’s no way if we were ever readmitted it would be returned.
The reality is our exiting of the EU is a one way process. The dreams of a Europe with the uk will be over. They will die for foreseeable future, if not for ever on the 31st of January.
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
Alastair. It is over. Boris has an 80 seat majority and the opposition is in bits
Unless you can come to terms with the reality, I do worry you are going to be in a very unhappy place for a very long time
You seem to be under the impression that the public is happy with Brexit and that it is going to be a success. The public on balance remains of the view that Brexit is a bad idea and the reality of it is not going to improve their view of it.
The country is in a terrible place and it is only going to get worse. The turning point will come when Leavers accept that Brexit is a fiasco. That will, unfortunately, take a while yet.
The public has just given Boris the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher precisely to deliver Brexit. BigG is absolutely right
The public rejected Jeremy Corbyn. It would be a grave mistake to treat the result as an enthusiastic endorsement of Brexit.
The LDs lost a seat net on a revoke Brexit platform, the Tories vote and seat count was up on a deliver Brexit platform and even the Brexit Party got more votes than UKIP did in 2017
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Keep on keeping on - your leader, who was going to be the country's leader, couldn't even win her constituency. What does your rule book say about leadership if you have no MPs?
The Lib Dems offering revoke and only picking up another 10% of the leave vote says it all!
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
Alastair. It is over. Boris has an 80 seat majority and the opposition is in bits
Unless you can come to terms with the reality, I do worry you are going to be in a very unhappy place for a very long time
You seem to be under the impression that the public is happy with Brexit and that it is going to be a success. The public on balance remains of the view that Brexit is a bad idea and the reality of it is not going to improve their view of it.
The country is in a terrible place and it is only going to get worse. The turning point will come when Leavers accept that Brexit is a fiasco. That will, unfortunately, take a while yet.
The public has just given Boris the biggest Tory landslide since Thatcher precisely to deliver Brexit. BigG is absolutely right
The public rejected Jeremy Corbyn. It would be a grave mistake to treat the result as an enthusiastic endorsement of Brexit.
The LDs lost a seat net on a revoke Brexit platform, the Tories vote and seat count was up on a deliver Brexit platform and even the Brexit Party got more votes than UKIP did in 2017
The LibDems gained 1.3m votes on a revoke Brexit platform. The Tories gained 0.3m votes on a get Brexit done platform.
Keep on keeping on - your leader, who was going to be the country's leader, couldn't even win her constituency. What does your rule book say about leadership if you have no MPs?
The Lib Dems offering revoke and only picking up another 10% of the leave vote says it all!
Errr, that should have read 10% of the remain vote.
On topic, Labour can still push for remaining in a customs union and/or the single market but what the election result confirmed was that voters want the Brexit they voted for delivered and there can be no question of even considering rejoining the full EU for at least a generation
That bit about not joining the EU for at least a generation. Got any facts to support such wishful thinking?
Here are some facts. Uncomfortable for some.
There no way debate and vote in 2016 proved the trade deal we had with EU has been holding us back as a nation, there’s no way our current trade trade deal with EU has been holding us back as a nation, so how can you prove a non fact is fact?
Even without the guts to call a 2nd ref on the new deal with EU, what is certain to happen is the old trade deal with EU and new trade deal with EU WILL put side by side and compared on basis which delivers most for the UK. This is organically quite naturally what happens next with any change or revolution, there is nothing you can do to prevent this.
Sorry if you were unaware this is what happens next, but that’s your error. Done and dusted? this is only just getting started.
If our trade deal with the EU doesn't hold us back how is it that annual growth in goods outside the EU is greater than 5% but inside 0.3% over the last 2 decades. Annual growth in services is also higher with RoW although by a much smaller margin but services aren't covered by the CU so what are we paying so much for? Our service based economy is never going to benefit from the EU as their policies are designed to protect the agriculture and manufacturing which is prevalent in the other members.
Brexit is nowhere near as firmly cemented as its proponents hope and its opponents fear. The public remain profoundly unconvinced by it and have elected only to let it proceed as a matter of democracy following the referendum. If it is perceived to be the failure that the public expect, it will remain a live topic for the foreseeable future.
That's a fairly delusional take. Once we are outside the EU, which *will* happen in about a month we would not be offered the rebate, opt outs on schengen and the Euro. Any rejoin campaign would be buried by that.
The delusion is yours. The EU would be accommodating to get Britain’s return if that looked securely founded. Of the three you list, only the rebate would be definitely lost. And the actual contribution could be fudged.
The rebate should have gone a long time ago. It was poison. Major, blair, brown and Cameron the very definition of cowardice for not getting rid of all the rebate.
Why would they wish to be members of a cooperative and not want to contribute fair share?
Under original rules we joined the common market the contribution arrangement was calculated differently, UK was arguably contributing too much, hence the rebate agreed with the Thatcher government. When the calculation was changed to be based on GDP for a stronger sense of fairness, in recent years U.K. definitely thanks to the rebate contributing too little.
The irony here is, the commerce friendly custom and admin busting arrangements decades of British governments have helped to build, and all the benefits of the free movement of labour, there’s one country that has profited and benefitted from more than any other and that’s the U.K. the nation now walking away from it.
We’ve been net contributors for all but one single year of our membership. It was a dreadfully poor deal sweetened by the rebate to make it merely a poor deal. The good thing about the rebate is once we are out there’s no way if we were ever readmitted it would be returned.
The reality is our exiting of the EU is a one way process. The dreams of a Europe with the uk will be over. They will die for foreseeable future, if not for ever on the 31st of January.
Of course we've been net contributors from day one! That's not conspiracy, that's a consequence of the fact that we joined as one of the wealthier states, and that in the intervening period the EU has invited poorer and poorer countries to join.
The result is that countries that most countries that were net recipients in 1980 are now net contributors.
If our trade deal with the EU doesn't hold us back how is it that annual growth in goods outside the EU is greater than 5% but inside 0.3% over the last 2 decades.
The growth in sales to countries outside the EU has to be at least partially due to the EU signing lots of trade deals.
If the EU hadn't secured free trade deals with Canada, South Korea, Israel, South Africa, Mexico, etc., then I suspect that growth in sales of goods outside the EU would have been slower.
The real question has to be, will the UK be party to more or fewer FTAs outside the EU?
And it seems like in the near term, we're going to get Australia and New Zealand (which is good), but lose Japan, and the Mercosur countries (Brazil, Argentina, Uraguay, Paraguay).
Indeed, one of the curious effects of dropping out the EU is that tariff barriers between the UK and the rest of the world will rise more than between the UK and the EU.
Just back from Midnight Communion during which tolerance and warmth towards those of different political persuasions was mentioned.
I found amusement in the idea that the Holy Trinity itself would have a job on its hands papering over the cracks of Brexit. And indeed will remainers be able to recant from the worship of the false idol across the water.
It still really puzzles me why the lefties want to stay in a club that is basically market based capitalism, run by a managerial technocracy with one pillar of it's core a deregulated labour market (think posted workers).
You're still thinking around a simplistic left-right axis.
A lot of pro-EU youngsters think in terms of personal freedom. The freedom to marry who they want (irrespective of sex), to smoke what they want, to identify as whatever gender they want, and to work with (and hang out with people from) whichever countries they want. They see they EU as one of the drivers of personal freedom.
But while they love personal freedom, they want to restrict corporate freedom. They companies are overmighty, and see nation states as too spineless and in hock to deal with them and their tax evasion. They see the EU as a counterweight.
Now, what the young fail to realise is that governance works best when there are proper democratic structures, and when things evolve slowly over long periods of time, and that to have an EU state, you need the majority of people to feel EU-citizens over British citizens.
Yes. A culture thing.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975. We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday. With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
You're decades out of date.
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
The EU trades with the world and engages with the world. It is a power in the world.
The UK destiny is to be a US lackey or an orphan.
I always laugh when somebody says the EU is a power in the world. Give us some examples of this power?
Apple’s $13bn fine ?
I’ll be impressed should Boris manage to emulate that....
Just popping in to wish everyone a very happy Xmas. ...
V impressive local Community Hospital and GP practice here. But the word is that Barrow General Hospital is under acute pressure.
In one of those circle of life things, when I started my pupillage training at the Bar, one of the very first cases my pupil master worked on was a building dispute about the construction of the then new Barrow General Hospital. God knows how any building was done at all as the architects and builders and engineers seemed to spend most of their days writing long letters to each other complaining about how awful everyone else’s work was. One of the barristers on the team was Emily Blunt’s father. We spent the days in a large Portakabin arguing about everything endlessly, with me as the new girl Friday, taking notes, generally being helpful etc and, incidentally, having to grin and bear the appalling sexism and misogyny from the builders who simply could not cope with the existence of a woman about 30 years younger.
When they were together they simply could not resist behaving like 14 year old boys. Individually they were perfectly nice and talked quite lovingly about their families and, often, interestingly about their work. But their brains simply could not compute that behaviour which they would hate if directed at women in their family was also wrong if directed at some other non-family member.
...
It would be an irony if I ended up in that wretched hospital all these years later. If I do I will be praying quite fervently for the medical expertise to be better than the building skills.
My parents and aunts and uncles now all deceased for several years did a grand tour of pretty well all the hospitals in the North West with the exception I think of the one for Whitehaven / Workington. For non acute, i.e. recovering situations Barrow always struck me as one of the better ones.
The biggest problem for Morecambe Bay has always been attracting and retaining medical personnel at every level. And it doesn't help if you have a local MP saying the service you provide is shite in three leaflets every month. Would you want to become a consultant in Morecambe Bay and completely destroy your career path when someone dies in less than ideal circumstances, as they inevitably will and then have the MP taking cheap shots at you in three leaflets every month ?
If our trade deal with the EU doesn't hold us back how is it that annual growth in goods outside the EU is greater than 5% but inside 0.3% over the last 2 decades.
The growth in sales to countries outside the EU has to be at least partially due to the EU signing lots of trade deals.
If the EU hadn't secured free trade deals with Canada, South Korea, Israel, South Africa, Mexico, etc., then I suspect that growth in sales of goods outside the EU would have been slower.
The real question has to be, will the UK be party to more or fewer FTAs outside the EU?
And it seems like in the near term, we're going to get Australia and New Zealand (which is good), but lose Japan, and the Mercosur countries (Brazil, Argentina, Uraguay, Paraguay).
Indeed, one of the curious effects of dropping out the EU is that tariff barriers between the UK and the rest of the world will rise more than between the UK and the EU.
Arguably then our growth with the RoW would be much better outside the EU as the trade deals that they do eventually manage to get done are not done with our strengths in mind.
Comments
LDs 11 seats
Reminds me of "Knives Out". Circuitous, red herrings, allusions, and then the denouement where suddenly all is clear. Well done.
All the best to those who are ill - and for anything serious, make sure to get a second opinion (something which saved my kidney a few decades back).
LDs won only 3.7 million votes
Whatever happened to that guy?
Here are some facts. Uncomfortable for some.
There no way debate and vote in 2016 proved the trade deal we had with EU has been holding us back as a nation, there’s no way our current trade trade deal with EU has been holding us back as a nation, so how can you prove a non fact is fact?
Even without the guts to call a 2nd ref on the new deal with EU, what is certain to happen is the old trade deal with EU and new trade deal with EU WILL put side by side and compared on basis which delivers most for the UK. This is organically quite naturally what happens next with any change or revolution, there is nothing you can do to prevent this.
Sorry if you were unaware this is what happens next, but that’s your error. Done and dusted? this is only just getting started.
- Boris, July 2003.
"My chances of being PM are about as good as the chances of finding Elvis on Mars, or my being reincarnated as an olive."
- Boris, June 2004.
We share more of a culture with continent today than 1975.
We share more of a culture with continent today than yesterday.
With each day now we will feel more culturally closer to continent than our own U.K. culture, regardless of brexit. Brexit after all is just boomer generation waving their fists at inevitable change they don’t realise yet cannot be stopped.
Yes.
No surrender no surrender no surrender to the ERG.
The wake up point for many is realising it’s not even a matter of democracy that it goes ahead.
It never was in or out, it always was trade deal for trade deal. Democracy is go off and negotiate a better deal, but I want to scrutinise it and a final say, I am not giving you a blank cheque. Brexiteers stand accused of passing that blank cheque off as good democracy. And this like a ghost of Christmas future is coming back to haunt them.
Because it has been sold as in or out rather than one trade deal for another, it means proper democracy is not being respected by the brexiteers. Instead the original vote to leave EU and a general election win over a rubbish opposition of clueless leaderless political juveniles is being used as a blank cheque for whatever negotiation or change an executive wishes to make. There is no completion of the democratic process begun in 2016 doing it this way. There can be no healing process doing it this way. It’s against all the tenets of democracy, where majorities need to reach out to minorities, not push through such major change this way.
LibDems got 11 seats for their 3.7m votes - 336,000 per seat.
If you don't see any thing wrong with that you are blind to the dangers facing UK democracy. Loss of trust in politicians. Loss of trust in political institutions. Loss of legitimacy. Complacency and hubris by the "winners". Further threat to political institutions by the "winners". UK democracy is more fragile than you realise.
The problem labour have, and indeed had, is they cannot accept we are leaving the EU and until they do they will have a very poor future, indeed I am not at all sure we will see labour as constituted in 2019 fight another election
Corbyn's address to the nation today was unbounded misery and even despair while Boris was one of hope, optimism and generally feel good
Why Corbyn leads labour into 2020 I have no idea but he is the first one that needs to go and go now to even start a dialogue for labour's future
Next time we lose the polestar?
I was thinking the other day, will we have to have all our satellite dishes repositioned?
There's a whole world out there beyond your inward looking fortress EU visions.
As voters wake up to what a naff piece of haphazard democracy or downright sneaky politicking achieved brexit, they will feel like they’ve been had. And they will seek to do something about it at every ballot box presented to them.
Unless of course does make the country wealthier year on year not poorer year on year.
It never was in or out, it always was trade deal for trade deal. Democracy is go off and negotiate a better deal, but I want to scrutinise it and a final say, I am not giving you a blank cheque. Brexiteers stand accused of passing that blank cheque off as good democracy. And this like a ghost of Christmas future is coming back to haunt them. 👻
The UK destiny is to be a US lackey or an orphan.
No politics for me for the next few days as our family gather together for Christmas
All the best folks
But I hope EU supporters at least make a more rational case than the 'there are no strawberries in the shops' type scare stories we've had for the last 42 months.
It is harsh, but you need to look at the mess labour have made of it.
Just imagine if those labour mps who are now out of office had their time back how much a majority TM would have had for her deal if they had voted yes, ,and we would already be out, Boris would not be PM, and they would probably still be in office.
I’ll be impressed should Boris manage to emulate that....
Perhaps you would like to explain how the UK was able to trade and engage with the world prior to 1973 ?
The question is rather will it trade/engage with the rest of the world more, or less successfully post Brexit. The idea that is might simply cease to do so is imbecilic.
Why would they wish to be members of a cooperative and not want to contribute fair share?
Under original rules we joined the common market the contribution arrangement was calculated differently, UK was arguably contributing too much, hence the rebate agreed with the Thatcher government. When the calculation was changed to be based on GDP for a stronger sense of fairness, in recent years U.K. definitely thanks to the rebate contributing too little.
The irony here is, the commerce friendly custom and admin busting arrangements decades of British governments have helped to build, and all the benefits of the free movement of labour, there’s one country that has profited and benefitted from more than any other and that’s the U.K. the nation now walking away from it.
You are quite right.
Anyway, enough of this. I have (absurdly at my age) stockings to fill...
Perhaps you can explain how the U.K. reverses it’s decline by leaving it?
Is there any reason for that connected to Alex Salmond ?
Either way it proved to be rather successful.
Leaving the EU encourages both things.
And when you have to live within your means and take responsibility for your actions many lessons are learned and many things consequently flow.
So I don't expect the next decade to be any 'land of milk and honey' but it might prepare us better for the decades which come after.
Anyway, away from individual ex politicians and back to the policy of the country of which we are citizens, for better or worse..
I'm not sure Russia has ever developed a standard Western political system.
What it has always had is either rule of strong men or weakness.
Times like this, seeing people from all walks of life and political views coming together to commiserate or celebrate the festive period is a fitting reminder. There really is more that unites us than divides us. Merry Christmas all.
Will it be sooking up to the Bank of England in London or will it be sooking up to the European Central Bank in Frankfurt ?
Which is what makes my currency comment so relevant - an independent Scotland will have to deal with the currency issue, it wont go away.
Have a good Christmas.
It’s a bit of a chicken and egg situation. In practice there has been more action from the top down than from the bottom up. Very few states were created as a result of people proclaiming themselves a demos and the authorities going “Righto: we’ll create a state then to accommodate your wishes.” It’s tended to be the other way around. In that respect, the EU project has rather been with the grain of European history than some awful ghastly imposition on it.
Of course one example of a people very insistently demanding that they be treated as a demos and get their own state was in Northern Ireland. Which is not an example anyone sane should want to follow. (And yeah before @Charles pops up, I know it’s not a separate state legally but in practice they got pretty much all the powers of a state (keeping uppity natives under control, a ludicrously overblown Parliament building, the right to make their own laws) while imposing the costs on someone else.)
The reality is our exiting of the EU is a one way process. The dreams of a Europe with the uk will be over. They will die for foreseeable future, if not for ever on the 31st of January.
The result is that countries that most countries that were net recipients in 1980 are now net contributors.
If the EU hadn't secured free trade deals with Canada, South Korea, Israel, South Africa, Mexico, etc., then I suspect that growth in sales of goods outside the EU would have been slower.
The real question has to be, will the UK be party to more or fewer FTAs outside the EU?
And it seems like in the near term, we're going to get Australia and New Zealand (which is good), but lose Japan, and the Mercosur countries (Brazil, Argentina, Uraguay, Paraguay).
Indeed, one of the curious effects of dropping out the EU is that tariff barriers between the UK and the rest of the world will rise more than between the UK and the EU.
I found amusement in the idea that the Holy Trinity itself would have a job on its hands papering over the cracks of Brexit. And indeed will remainers be able to recant from the worship of the false idol across the water.
A Happy Christmas to all.
The biggest problem for Morecambe Bay has always been attracting and retaining medical personnel at every level. And it doesn't help if you have a local MP saying the service you provide is shite in three leaflets every month. Would you want to become a consultant in Morecambe Bay and completely destroy your career path when someone dies in less than ideal circumstances, as they inevitably will and then have the MP taking cheap shots at you in three leaflets every month ?