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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Brexit’s Hotel California

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited December 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Brexit’s Hotel California

They have learned nothing and forgotten nothing. Originally was said of the Bourbon monarchy after its restoration, it’s equally true of the EU Commission today which seems intent on repeating all its own mistakes for lack of comprehension that they are, in fact, mistakes.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 5,838
    first
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 38,810
    Second, like Starmer...
  • speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    "could benefit by asking itselves why support for independence in Scotland, for example, remains so high – and by trying to answer the question as honestly as possible."

    Well America wanted independence from the UK, the American South wanted independence from America, Ireland wanted independence from the UK, Northern Ireland wanted independence from Ireland, the UK wants independence from the EU, Scotland wants independence from the UK, Aberdeen wants independence from Scotland, the North wants more powers from the South, London wants to take powers from the rest of the UK, even Western Canada and East Canada want more power from each other over each other.

    It's an Anglosaxon-Britanic tradition called fierce individualism.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040
    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 38,810
    A good article from DH.

    It does look as if the issue will be NTBs such as product specifications and food standards, and I cannot see why the EU would give way on these.

    Of course "No Deal" loses much of its sting for the EU with the WA. The status of EU citizens, the £33 billion divorce bill and Irish land border are all sorted, so no longer a threat.

    BoZo seems disinclined to do his usual "defeat painted as victory" schtick this time, so hard to see him agreeing Customs Union and abiding by EU rules, but he can be quite shameless in stitching up his friends, so not inconceivable.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 16,629
    edited December 2019
    Good piece, but I think it overstates the extent to which the EU's position is a hardball negotiating stance and understates the extent to which they actually mean it: What the British want to do is to get full market access, but undercut their EU neighbours on environmental and labour standards.

    The EU don't want this, not only because they can probably get a better deal by standing firm, but because they *don't have cornflakes for brains*.

    Many EU states and MEPs, and certainly a blocking majority of each, simply don't want to get undercut in their own markets by a developed country playing regulatory arbitrage games. They aren't obliged to sign a deal that allows this, so they won't. No deal is better than a bad deal, as the philosopher once said.

    This is a really widespread misconception in the UK and goes to the heart of the whole case for Brexit, so it's not hard to see how everything goes pear-shaped when it comes up against a deadline.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 38,810

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    It is quite possible that there will be some reducing of the North/South divide with Brexit, but more likely for it to worsen in the cold winds of post Brexit globalisation.

    While the government can pursue an even more redistributive policy on London and the South East, that may well not play well to our export strengths.

    It is quite telling that Brexiteers are fond of the phrase "Singapore on Thames", but I note that it is never "Singapore on Trent" or "Singapore on Mersey".
  • The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
  • The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040
    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    It is quite possible that there will be some reducing of the North/South divide with Brexit, but more likely for it to worsen in the cold winds of post Brexit globalisation.

    While the government can pursue an even more redistributive policy on London and the South East, that may well not play well to our export strengths.

    It is quite telling that Brexiteers are fond of the phrase "Singapore on Thames", but I note that it is never "Singapore on Trent" or "Singapore on Mersey".
    across the world globalisation is on ice. Its gone as far as it can in this round and voters are seeking a period of retrenchment and putting themselves first.

    Assuming BoJo drifts to the centre Singaporfe on Thames lives only in the minds of Liam Fox and jusquaboutiste Remainers. We'll all look on at you like youre one of those Japanese soldiers trying to defend some long forgotten piece of the Pacific.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    well only time will tell, but its preferable watching the towns s around me slowly decay which is what was on offer under the old regime.

    Personally I have much more faith in the people of these islands that you appear to have.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,466

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Nah. That sounds like your personal manifesto and therefore wishful thinking on your part,
  • The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    well only time will tell, but its preferable watching the towns s around me slowly decay which is what was on offer under the old regime.

    Personally I have much more faith in the people of these islands that you appear to have.
    Fast decay will get it over and done with more quickly, I suppose.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040
    Jonathan said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Nah. That sounds like your personal manifesto and therefore wishful thinking on your part,
    Maybe, but the tone of the news and the political agenda have certainly changed in the last week. Even this board is no longer droning on about the minutiae of Brexit. And the lefties on PB have now started slamming BoJo as a crypto dictator who will gerrymander the system.

    You cant on the one hand say one party state while maintaining with the other Blairs settlement wont change. The legislative abbatoirs will be busy.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 788
    and 31 January is my birthday - its just not fair!!
  • On topic, very good article by @david_herdson - neither side has learned anything about the other.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 38,810

    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    It is quite possible that there will be some reducing of the North/South divide with Brexit, but more likely for it to worsen in the cold winds of post Brexit globalisation.

    While the government can pursue an even more redistributive policy on London and the South East, that may well not play well to our export strengths.

    It is quite telling that Brexiteers are fond of the phrase "Singapore on Thames", but I note that it is never "Singapore on Trent" or "Singapore on Mersey".
    across the world globalisation is on ice. Its gone as far as it can in this round and voters are seeking a period of retrenchment and putting themselves first.

    Assuming BoJo drifts to the centre Singaporfe on Thames lives only in the minds of Liam Fox and jusquaboutiste Remainers. We'll all look on at you like youre one of those Japanese soldiers trying to defend some long forgotten piece of the Pacific.
    I am back to my original position of 2016-17, not too bothered by the variation of Brexit. After all, I am not a farmer, nor a motor manufacturer nor in financial services. I am in the most secure of professions and promised incentives to improve my retention in the NHS. I am quite optimistic about my own Brexit dividend.

    Others are going to have to look after themselves, but that is what they voted for, and I am quite content with them having that agency.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,721
    Excellent header - analysis is very convincing.

    If there's going to be No Deal then from a purely political perspective, Johnson will want to get it over with asap, to have time for a recovery before the next election.

    And I'm sure Cummings will be lining up videos of EU politicians saying things that will make the British public's blood boil, so that they can be blamed for any economic disruption.

    Identity > economics.
  • Good piece, but I think it overstates the extent to which the EU's position is a hardball negotiating stance and understates the extent to which they actually mean it: What the British want to do is to get full market access, but undercut their EU neighbours on environmental and labour standards.

    The EU don't want this, not only because they can probably get a better deal by standing firm, but because they *don't have cornflakes for brains*.

    Many EU states and MEPs, and certainly a blocking majority of each, simply don't want to get undercut in their own markets by a developed country playing regulatory arbitrage games. They aren't obliged to sign a deal that allows this, so they won't. No deal is better than a bad deal, as the philosopher once said.

    This is a really widespread misconception in the UK and goes to the heart of the whole case for Brexit, so it's not hard to see how everything goes pear-shaped when it comes up against a deadline.

    That's correct.
    Boris and Cummings would have taken us out without a deal in October if they hadn't been stopped. They will now do it next year since there's nobody to stop them. The absolute best we can get is a thin part-deal.
    In five years time the Tory government will be more unpopular than Corbyn and it will be difficult to find anybody who will admit to having voted Leave.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 38,810
    edited December 2019

    Good piece, but I think it overstates the extent to which the EU's position is a hardball negotiating stance and understates the extent to which they actually mean it: What the British want to do is to get full market access, but undercut their EU neighbours on environmental and labour standards.

    The EU don't want this, not only because they can probably get a better deal by standing firm, but because they *don't have cornflakes for brains*.

    Many EU states and MEPs, and certainly a blocking majority of each, simply don't want to get undercut in their own markets by a developed country playing regulatory arbitrage games. They aren't obliged to sign a deal that allows this, so they won't. No deal is better than a bad deal, as the philosopher once said.

    This is a really widespread misconception in the UK and goes to the heart of the whole case for Brexit, so it's not hard to see how everything goes pear-shaped when it comes up against a deadline.

    That's correct.
    Boris and Cummings would have taken us out without a deal in October if they hadn't been stopped. They will now do it next year since there's nobody to stop them. The absolute best we can get is a thin part-deal.
    In five years time the Tory government will be more unpopular than Corbyn and it will be difficult to find anybody who will admit to having voted Leave.
    It cannot be No Deal now. We have agreed EU residency rights, the £33 billion payment and Irish sea border but no Irish land border.

    The consequences of No Further Deal are now more asymmetric than they were in October, and not to the advantage of the governments negotiating position.
  • The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    It is quite possible that there will be some reducing of the North/South divide with Brexit, but more likely for it to worsen in the cold winds of post Brexit globalisation.

    While the government can pursue an even more redistributive policy on London and the South East, that may well not play well to our export strengths.

    It is quite telling that Brexiteers are fond of the phrase "Singapore on Thames", but I note that it is never "Singapore on Trent" or "Singapore on Mersey".
    across the world globalisation is on ice. Its gone as far as it can in this round and voters are seeking a period of retrenchment and putting themselves first.

    Assuming BoJo drifts to the centre Singaporfe on Thames lives only in the minds of Liam Fox and jusquaboutiste Remainers. We'll all look on at you like youre one of those Japanese soldiers trying to defend some long forgotten piece of the Pacific.
    I am back to my original position of 2016-17, not too bothered by the variation of Brexit. After all, I am not a farmer, nor a motor manufacturer nor in financial services. I am in the most secure of professions and promised incentives to improve my retention in the NHS. I am quite optimistic about my own Brexit dividend.

    Others are going to have to look after themselves, but that is what they voted for, and I am quite content with them having that agency.
    well that's two of us then

    I voted for Brexit to change the direction of British politics Ive nothing much against the EU and could have been persuaded to vote Remain, But nobody could advance a decent reason to do so,
  • Foxy said:

    Good piece, but I think it overstates the extent to which the EU's position is a hardball negotiating stance and understates the extent to which they actually mean it: What the British want to do is to get full market access, but undercut their EU neighbours on environmental and labour standards.

    The EU don't want this, not only because they can probably get a better deal by standing firm, but because they *don't have cornflakes for brains*.

    Many EU states and MEPs, and certainly a blocking majority of each, simply don't want to get undercut in their own markets by a developed country playing regulatory arbitrage games. They aren't obliged to sign a deal that allows this, so they won't. No deal is better than a bad deal, as the philosopher once said.

    This is a really widespread misconception in the UK and goes to the heart of the whole case for Brexit, so it's not hard to see how everything goes pear-shaped when it comes up against a deadline.

    That's correct.
    Boris and Cummings would have taken us out without a deal in October if they hadn't been stopped. They will now do it next year since there's nobody to stop them. The absolute best we can get is a thin part-deal.
    In five years time the Tory government will be more unpopular than Corbyn and it will be difficult to find anybody who will admit to having voted Leave.
    It cannot be No Deal now. We have agreed EU residency rights, the £33 billion payment and Irish sea border but no Irish land border.

    The consequences of No Further Deal are now more asymmetric than they were in October, and not to the advantage of the governments negotiating position.

    Unless the government repeals the WA legislation. Obviously, that would be an act of extreme self harm, but it’s doable.

  • On topic, very good article by @david_herdson - neither side has learned anything about the other.

    And not much about themselves it would appear.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.


    While the government can pursue an even more redistributive policy on London and the South East, that may well not play well to our export strengths.

    It is quite telling that Brexiteers are fond of the phrase "Singapore on Thames", but I note that it is never "Singapore on Trent" or "Singapore on Mersey".
    across the world globalisation is on ice. Its gone as far as it can in this round and voters are seeking a period of retrenchment and putting themselves first.

    Assuming BoJo drifts to the centre Singaporfe on Thames lives only in the minds of Liam Fox and jusquaboutiste Remainers. We'll all look on at you like youre one of those Japanese soldiers trying to defend some long forgotten piece of the Pacific.
    I am back to my original position of 2016-17, not too bothered by the variation of Brexit. After all, I am not a farmer, nor a motor manufacturer nor in financial services. I am in the most secure of professions and promised incentives to improve my retention in the NHS. I am quite optimistic about my own Brexit dividend.

    Others are going to have to look after themselves, but that is what they voted for, and I am quite content with them having that agency.
    well that's two of us then

    I voted for Brexit to change the direction of British politics Ive nothing much against the EU and could have been persuaded to vote Remain, But nobody could advance a decent reason to do so,
    We'll soon be able to sweep away the EU's red tape and enjoy cheaper food with a new deal with the USA.
    ""The consumer's being duped," Mauer said, adding that the meat may be more likely to contain feces, sex organs, toenails, bladders and unwanted hair. "
    https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/474789-food-inspectors-warn-of-mystery-pork-under-new-meat-inspection?fbclid=IwAR2CODy5OK5S6jO7LSOaMMJxuRtNvPCxgfjuvQ6GlQ2YtP4vEa_353ZRRys
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,114
    edited December 2019

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 38,810

    Foxy said:

    Good piece, but I think it overstates the extent to which the EU's position is a hardball negotiating stance and understates the extent to which they actually mean it: What the British want to do is to get full market access, but undercut their EU neighbours on environmental and labour standards.

    The EU don't want this, not only because they can probably get a better deal by standing firm, but because they *don't have cornflakes for brains*.

    Many EU states and MEPs, and certainly a blocking majority of each, simply don't want to get undercut in their own markets by a developed country playing regulatory arbitrage games. They aren't obliged to sign a deal that allows this, so they won't. No deal is better than a bad deal, as the philosopher once said.

    This is a really widespread misconception in the UK and goes to the heart of the whole case for Brexit, so it's not hard to see how everything goes pear-shaped when it comes up against a deadline.

    That's correct.
    Boris and Cummings would have taken us out without a deal in October if they hadn't been stopped. They will now do it next year since there's nobody to stop them. The absolute best we can get is a thin part-deal.
    In five years time the Tory government will be more unpopular than Corbyn and it will be difficult to find anybody who will admit to having voted Leave.
    It cannot be No Deal now. We have agreed EU residency rights, the £33 billion payment and Irish sea border but no Irish land border.

    The consequences of No Further Deal are now more asymmetric than they were in October, and not to the advantage of the governments negotiating position.

    Unless the government repeals the WA legislation. Obviously, that would be an act of extreme self harm, but it’s doable.

    If the government wanted to No Deal, they could simply not bring the WDA back to parliament for the third reading and allow No Deal on 31 Jan. I don't think that they will though.
  • Abbatoir auto corrects to ABBA tour on my phone!!
  • I'd say about as likely as the BJ bridge ever breaking ground, but who knows?

    'Andy Maciver: Boris could gamble on quick independence referendum to destroy Scottish nationalism'

    https://tinyurl.com/u6eof4p


  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,466

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.
    The rightwing have their own PC agenda and have a pretty serious track record of suppressing free speech. Same arse different cheek. They just don’t notice because it’s their PC agenda.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040
    edited December 2019

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.


    While the government can pursue an even more redistributive policy on London and the South East, that may well not play well to our export strengths.

    It is quite telling that Brexiteers are fond of the phrase "Singapore on Thames", but I note that it is never "Singapore on Trent" or "Singapore on Mersey".
    across the world globalisation is on ice. Its gone as far as it piece of the Pacific.
    I am back to my original position of 2016-17, not too bot own Brexit dividend.

    Others are going to have to look after themselves, but that is what they voted for, and I am quite content with them having that agency.
    well that's two of us then

    I voted for Brexit to change the direction of British politics Ive nothing much against the EU and could have been persuaded to vote Remain, But nobody could advance a decent reason to do so,
    We'll soon be able to sweep away the EU's red tape and enjoy cheaper food with a new deal with the USA.
    ""The consumer's being duped," Mauer said, adding that the meat may be more likely to contain feces, sex organs, toenails, bladders and unwanted hair. "
    https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/474789-food-inspectors-warn-of-mystery-pork-under-new-meat-inspection?fbclid=IwAR2CODy5OK5S6jO7LSOaMMJxuRtNvPCxgfjuvQ6GlQ2YtP4vEa_353ZRRys
    LOL

    what nonsense. Food has always has contamination issues. Did being in the EU stop contamination in dutch eggs, horse meat being sold as beef chemical contamination in lettuce ? Or in our own case BSE, salmonella eggs or foot and mouth ?

    Two tblocks spinning their regulations doesn't stop food scares.

    As Ive pointed out to my wife my kids could eat US chicken every day for the rest of their lives and theyd still swallow less cklorine than the 10 years she took them to swimming club.

    A sense of proportion needs to return to these debates.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited December 2019

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    "What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?"

    Tell children they are either a boy or a girl and 99.99% of the time it's not an option to change, or better still not have to mention it. is one that springs to mind
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 37,240
    edited December 2019


    the meat may be more likely to contain feces, sex organs, toenails, bladders and unwanted hair

    'Delicious' said noted Brexiteer foodie and man of a thousand faces (feces?), SeanT.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040
    Jonathan said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.
    The rightwing have their own PC agenda and have a pretty serious track record of suppressing free speech. Same arse different cheek. They just don’t notice because it’s their PC agenda.
    Really what is it and who will advance it ?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040

    Abbatoir auto corrects to ABBA tour on my phone!!

    so much better :-)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 38,810

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    Rolling back PC is not going to happen. Society has moved on. Even BoZo is unlikely to call his new gay or BME MPs "Tank topped bum boys" or "Flag waving picanninies", not to their faces anyway.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,466

    Abbatoir auto corrects to ABBA tour on my phone!!

    Mamma Mia!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040
    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    Rolling back PC is not going to happen. Society has moved on. Even BoZo is unlikely to call his new gay or BME MPs "Tank topped bum boys" or "Flag waving picanninies", not to their faces anyway.
    like every time the pendulum swings some of it will stay and some of it will go. But undeniably the direction is now changing , so it has gone as far as it can this round.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,466
    edited December 2019

    Jonathan said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.
    The rightwing have their own PC agenda and have a pretty serious track record of suppressing free speech. Same arse different cheek. They just don’t notice because it’s their PC agenda.
    Really what is it and who will advance it ?
    Brexit has its own vocabulary, diverge from the one true path and you are labelled a remoaner. More generally when a right winger doesn’t like how you apply free speech, you get accused of not being patriotic or moral. Very PC, just of a different hue.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 30,008
    Good morning everyone; I suspect that Boris' Government will be able to get anything it wants through the House that it wishes for about 18 months. If there are bad economic consequences, especially for some of the left behind areas....... Nissan pulling out of the NE for example, although I don't think that will happen, or at least so soon...... then I suspect some of the more independent-minded Tory MP's in those areas will start kicking off.
    Where I do think Boris will run into trouble is N Ireland. I suspect that there will be Assembly elections early in 2020, resulting in a more Nationalist/pragmatic body, which, as the situation develops to Norn's disadvantage will turns its thoughts to re-union with the South. A 52-48 majority in favour of (at least) closer association with the Republic will tax Boris' decision-making powers.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 38,810

    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    Rolling back PC is not going to happen. Society has moved on. Even BoZo is unlikely to call his new gay or BME MPs "Tank topped bum boys" or "Flag waving picanninies", not to their faces anyway.
    like every time the pendulum swings some of it will stay and some of it will go. But undeniably the direction is now changing , so it has gone as far as it can this round.
    Nah. A lot of the stuff that was considered "looney left" in the 1980's is completely unremarkable nowadays. Even football clubs and fans support Pride nowadays.


  • isam said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    "What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?"

    Tell children they are either a boy or a girl and 99.99% of the time it's not an option to change, or better still not have to mention it. is one that springs to mind

    No-one has ever stopped me telling my two boys they’re boys and my girl she’s a girl.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 59,743
    Jonathan said:

    Abbatoir auto corrects to ABBA tour on my phone!!

    Mamma Mia!
    You bastard, you beat me to it.

    But neither you nor I’m to blame when all is said and done.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    .
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    Rolling back PC is not going to happen. Society has moved on. Even BoZo is unlikely to call his new gay or BME MPs "Tank topped bum boys" or "Flag waving picanninies", not to their faces anyway.
    like every time the pendulum swings some of it will stay and some of it will go. But undeniably the direction is now changing , so it has gone as far as it can this round.
    Nah. A lot of the stuff that was considered "looney left" in the 1980's is completely unremarkable nowadays. Even football clubs and fans support Pride nowadays.


    What would happen to a Premier League football club that didn't support Pride?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited December 2019

    isam said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    "What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?"

    Tell children they are either a boy or a girl and 99.99% of the time it's not an option to change, or better still not have to mention it. is one that springs to mind

    No-one has ever stopped me telling my two boys they’re boys and my girl she’s a girl.

    Times change

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,466
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Abbatoir auto corrects to ABBA tour on my phone!!

    Mamma Mia!
    You bastard, you beat me to it.

    But neither you nor I’m to blame when all is said and done.
    I take that as meaning you met your Waterloo and sent out an SOS.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.
    The rightwing have their own PC agenda and have a pretty serious track record of suppressing free speech. Same arse different cheek. They just don’t notice because it’s their PC agenda.
    Really what is it and who will advance it ?
    Brexit has its own vocabulary, diverge from the one true path and you are labelled a remoaner. More generally when a right winger doesn’t like how you apply free speech, you get accused of not being patriotic or moral. Very PC, just of a different hue.
    That's PB speak (and not even then) I live in a 50:50 house I don't call my wife unpatriotic - though I wouldn't mind if she was a bit more immoral :smiley:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 59,743
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Abbatoir auto corrects to ABBA tour on my phone!!

    Mamma Mia!
    You bastard, you beat me to it.

    But neither you nor I’m to blame when all is said and done.
    I take that as meaning you met your Waterloo and sent out an SOS.
    The winner takes it all.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,466
    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Abbatoir auto corrects to ABBA tour on my phone!!

    Mamma Mia!
    You bastard, you beat me to it.

    But neither you nor I’m to blame when all is said and done.
    I take that as meaning you met your Waterloo and sent out an SOS.
    The winner takes it all.
    I do, I do, I do, I do.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    I’m not sure you are right on aversion to parliamentary scrutiny

    It was a reaction to an obstructive mindset in Parliament, a minority government and a political speaker. It *may* be that they don’t need to fight this battle now.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    "What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?"

    Tell children they are either a boy or a girl and 99.99% of the time it's not an option to change, or better still not have to mention it. is one that springs to mind

    No-one has ever stopped me telling my two boys they’re boys and my girl she’s a girl.

    Times change

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

    I doubt it!

  • saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,466
    Charles said:

    I’m not sure you are right on aversion to parliamentary scrutiny

    It was a reaction to an obstructive mindset in Parliament, a minority government and a political speaker. It *may* be that they don’t need to fight this battle now.

    It was an unlawful suppression of scrutiny. Boris has a track record of avoiding scrutiny. How dare people question him.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040

    saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
    are you doing it for free ?

    otherwise all youre really doing is taking your chunk of the carcass before the creditors.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.
    The rightwing have their own PC agenda and have a pretty serious track record of suppressing free speech. Same arse different cheek. They just don’t notice because it’s their PC agenda.
    Really what is it and who will advance it ?
    Brexit has its own vocabulary, diverge from the one true path and you are labelled a remoaner. More generally when a right winger doesn’t like how you apply free speech, you get accused of not being patriotic or moral. Very PC, just of a different hue.
    That's PB speak (and not even then) I live in a 50:50 house I don't call my wife unpatriotic - though I wouldn't mind if she was a bit more immoral :smiley:

    Ha, ha!!

  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    "What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?"

    Tell children they are either a boy or a girl and 99.99% of the time it's not an option to change, or better still not have to mention it. is one that springs to mind

    No-one has ever stopped me telling my two boys they’re boys and my girl she’s a girl.

    Times change

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

    I doubt it!

    Doubt what?
  • saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
    are you doing it for free ?

    otherwise all youre really doing is taking your chunk of the carcass before the creditors.
    I’m intending to succeed. But if you’d prefer the company to go bust and remove a major employer from one of those towns that you profess to worry about, I’ll down tools instead.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040

    saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
    are you doing it for free ?

    otherwise all youre really doing is taking your chunk of the carcass before the creditors.
    I’m intending to succeed. But if you’d prefer the company to go bust and remove a major employer from one of those towns that you profess to worry about, I’ll down tools instead.
    so that's a no then
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 39,733

    I'd say about as likely as the BJ bridge ever breaking ground, but who knows?

    'Andy Maciver: Boris could gamble on quick independence referendum to destroy Scottish nationalism'

    https://tinyurl.com/u6eof4p


    Yes, too busy crapping himself, he will delay until it is a resounding defeat of the dictatorship, only a matter of time.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    "What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?"

    Tell children they are either a boy or a girl and 99.99% of the time it's not an option to change, or better still not have to mention it. is one that springs to mind

    No-one has ever stopped me telling my two boys they’re boys and my girl she’s a girl.

    Times change

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

    I doubt it!

    Doubt what?

    That times will change.

  • saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
    are you doing it for free ?

    otherwise all youre really doing is taking your chunk of the carcass before the creditors.
    I’m intending to succeed. But if you’d prefer the company to go bust and remove a major employer from one of those towns that you profess to worry about, I’ll down tools instead.
    so that's a no then

    I think it’s lovely you work for free, Mr Brooke!

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040

    saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
    are you doing it for free ?

    otherwise all youre really doing is taking your chunk of the carcass before the creditors.
    I’m intending to succeed. But if you’d prefer the company to go bust and remove a major employer from one of those towns that you profess to worry about, I’ll down tools instead.
    so that's a no then

    I think it’s lovely you work for free, Mr Brooke!

    of course I don't but neither do I try to portray paid work as charity and saving mankind
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    "What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?"

    Tell children they are either a boy or a girl and 99.99% of the time it's not an option to change, or better still not have to mention it. is one that springs to mind

    No-one has ever stopped me telling my two boys they’re boys and my girl she’s a girl.

    Times change

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

    I doubt it!

    Doubt what?

    That times will change.

    The anti Bob Dylan!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,466

    saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
    are you doing it for free ?

    otherwise all youre really doing is taking your chunk of the carcass before the creditors.
    I’m intending to succeed. But if you’d prefer the company to go bust and remove a major employer from one of those towns that you profess to worry about, I’ll down tools instead.
    so that's a no then

    I think it’s lovely you work for free, Mr Brooke!

    of course I don't but neither do I try to portray paid work as charity and saving mankind
    You’re a bit silly on this one.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 38,810
    isam said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    Rolling back PC is not going to happen. Society has moved on. Even BoZo is unlikely to call his new gay or BME MPs "Tank topped bum boys" or "Flag waving picanninies", not to their faces anyway.
    like every time the pendulum swings some of it will stay and some of it will go. But undeniably the direction is now changing , so it has gone as far as it can this round.
    Nah. A lot of the stuff that was considered "looney left" in the 1980's is completely unremarkable nowadays. Even football clubs and fans support Pride nowadays.


    What would happen to a Premier League football club that didn't support Pride?
    Probably the same as a club that didn't embroidered poppies on its shirts in November. Virtue signalling is policed by social media nowadays.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040
    Jonathan said:

    saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
    are you doing it for free ?

    otherwise all youre really doing is taking your chunk of the carcass before the creditors.
    I’m intending to succeed. But if you’d prefer the company to go bust and remove a major employer from one of those towns that you profess to worry about, I’ll down tools instead.
    so that's a no then

    I think it’s lovely you work for free, Mr Brooke!

    of course I don't but neither do I try to portray paid work as charity and saving mankind
    You’re a bit silly on this one.
    festive cheer Mr J, fits finally reached the Midlands and the North
  • saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
    are you doing it for free ?

    otherwise all youre really doing is taking your chunk of the carcass before the creditors.
    I’m intending to succeed. But if you’d prefer the company to go bust and remove a major employer from one of those towns that you profess to worry about, I’ll down tools instead.
    so that's a no then

    I think it’s lovely you work for free, Mr Brooke!

    of course I don't but neither do I try to portray paid work as charity and saving mankind

    I think you’re projecting a teensy bit.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,577
    speedy2 said:

    "could benefit by asking itselves why support for independence in Scotland, for example, remains so high – and by trying to answer the question as honestly as possible."

    Well America wanted independence from the UK, the American South wanted independence from America, Ireland wanted independence from the UK, Northern Ireland wanted independence from Ireland, the UK wants independence from the EU, Scotland wants independence from the UK, Aberdeen wants independence from Scotland, the North wants more powers from the South, London wants to take powers from the rest of the UK, even Western Canada and East Canada want more power from each other over each other.

    It's an Anglosaxon-Britanic tradition called fierce individualism.

    Nice list.

    Except that Scotland does NOT want independence from the UK.

    :-)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 38,810
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Abbatoir auto corrects to ABBA tour on my phone!!

    Mamma Mia!
    You bastard, you beat me to it.

    But neither you nor I’m to blame when all is said and done.
    I take that as meaning you met your Waterloo and sent out an SOS.
    Knowing me, knowing you, that is the best that we can do.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 5,838
    Icarus said:

    and 31 January is my birthday - its just not fair!!

    and that is the day I finally retire for good!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 59,743
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Abbatoir auto corrects to ABBA tour on my phone!!

    Mamma Mia!
    You bastard, you beat me to it.

    But neither you nor I’m to blame when all is said and done.
    I take that as meaning you met your Waterloo and sent out an SOS.
    Knowing me, knowing you, that is the best that we can do.
    Gimme gimme gimme a break here, guys.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 5,838

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.


    While the government can pursue an even more redistributive policy on London and the South East, that may well not play well to our export strengths.

    It is quite telling that Brexiteers are fond of the phrase "Singapore on Thames", but I note that it is never "Singapore on Trent" or "Singapore on Mersey".
    across the world globalisation is on ice. Its gone as far as it can in this round and voters are seeking a period of retrenchment and putting themselves first.

    Assuming BoJo drifts to the centre Singaporfe on Thames lives only in the minds of Liam Fox and jusquaboutiste Remainers. We'll all look on at you like youre one of those Japanese soldiers trying to defend some long forgotten piece of the Pacific.
    I am back to my original position of 2016-17, not too bothered by the variation of Brexit. After all, I am not a farmer, nor a motor manufacturer nor in financial services. I am in the most secure of professions and promised incentives to improve my retention in the NHS. I am quite optimistic about my own Brexit dividend.

    Others are going to have to look after themselves, but that is what they voted for, and I am quite content with them having that agency.
    well that's two of us then

    I voted for Brexit to change the direction of British politics Ive nothing much against the EU and could have been persuaded to vote Remain, But nobody could advance a decent reason to do so,
    We'll soon be able to sweep away the EU's red tape and enjoy cheaper food with a new deal with the USA.
    ""The consumer's being duped," Mauer said, adding that the meat may be more likely to contain feces, sex organs, toenails, bladders and unwanted hair. "
    https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/474789-food-inspectors-warn-of-mystery-pork-under-new-meat-inspection?fbclid=IwAR2CODy5OK5S6jO7LSOaMMJxuRtNvPCxgfjuvQ6GlQ2YtP4vEa_353ZRRys
    The usual Sat night kebab then !
  • ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Abbatoir auto corrects to ABBA tour on my phone!!

    Mamma Mia!
    You bastard, you beat me to it.

    But neither you nor I’m to blame when all is said and done.
    I take that as meaning you met your Waterloo and sent out an SOS.
    Knowing me, knowing you, that is the best that we can do.
    Gimme gimme gimme a break here, guys.

    Fernando

    Don’t ask me why.

  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.


    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    Rolling back PC is not going to happen. Society has moved on. Even BoZo is unlikely to call his new gay or BME MPs "Tank topped bum boys" or "Flag waving picanninies", not to their faces anyway.
    like every time the pendulum swings some of it will stay and some of it will go. But undeniably the direction is now changing , so it has gone as far as it can this round.
    Nah. A lot of the stuff that was considered "looney left" in the 1980's is completely unremarkable nowadays. Even football clubs and fans support Pride nowadays.


    What would happen to a Premier League football club that didn't support Pride?
    Probably the same as a club that didn't embroidered poppies on its shirts in November. Virtue signalling is policed by social media nowadays.
    Yes, they aren't independently supporting Pride, I would say they were shamed into it. It is a shame that diversity has become an industry, I doubt it really helps the cause that much, as everything is reduced to a slogan
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040

    saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
    are you doing it for free ?

    otherwise all youre really doing is taking your chunk of the carcass before the creditors.
    I’m intending to succeed. But if you’d prefer the company to go bust and remove a major employer from one of those towns that you profess to worry about, I’ll down tools instead.
    so that's a no then

    I think it’s lovely you work for free, Mr Brooke!

    of course I don't but neither do I try to portray paid work as charity and saving mankind

    I think you’re projecting a teensy bit.

    would I do that ?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 5,838
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jonathan said:

    Abbatoir auto corrects to ABBA tour on my phone!!

    Mamma Mia!
    You bastard, you beat me to it.

    But neither you nor I’m to blame when all is said and done.
    I take that as meaning you met your Waterloo and sent out an SOS.
    Knowing me, knowing you, that is the best that we can do.
    Gimme gimme gimme a break here, guys.
    Is that some kind of SOS call?
  • MattW said:

    speedy2 said:

    "could benefit by asking itselves why support for independence in Scotland, for example, remains so high – and by trying to answer the question as honestly as possible."

    Well America wanted independence from the UK, the American South wanted independence from America, Ireland wanted independence from the UK, Northern Ireland wanted independence from Ireland, the UK wants independence from the EU, Scotland wants independence from the UK, Aberdeen wants independence from Scotland, the North wants more powers from the South, London wants to take powers from the rest of the UK, even Western Canada and East Canada want more power from each other over each other.

    It's an Anglosaxon-Britanic tradition called fierce individualism.

    Nice list.

    Except that Scotland does NOT want independence from the UK.

    :-)
    But let's not ask them, just in case.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,805

    MattW said:

    speedy2 said:

    "could benefit by asking itselves why support for independence in Scotland, for example, remains so high – and by trying to answer the question as honestly as possible."

    Well America wanted independence from the UK, the American South wanted independence from America, Ireland wanted independence from the UK, Northern Ireland wanted independence from Ireland, the UK wants independence from the EU, Scotland wants independence from the UK, Aberdeen wants independence from Scotland, the North wants more powers from the South, London wants to take powers from the rest of the UK, even Western Canada and East Canada want more power from each other over each other.

    It's an Anglosaxon-Britanic tradition called fierce individualism.

    Nice list.

    Except that Scotland does NOT want independence from the UK.

    :-)
    But let's not ask them, just in case.
    At least once the question has been asked again the SNP will no longer be able to avoid answering questions on Education, NHS, Police, Ship building.
  • saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlementdust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
    are you doing it for free ?

    otherwise all youre really doing is taking your chunk of the carcass before the creditors.
    I’m intending to succeed. But if you’d prefer the company to go bust and remove a major employer from one of those towns that you profess to worry about, I’ll down tools instead.
    so that's a no then

    I think it’s lovely you work for free, Mr Brooke!

    of course I don't but neither do I try to portray paid work as charity and saving mankind

    I think you’re projecting a teensy bit.

    would I do that ?

    Never!!!

    No rain in Warwickshire for a couple of hours now. Drought approaches!

    Here’s wishing you and yours a great Xmas and new year.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 38,810
    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.


    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    Rolling back PC is not going to happen. Society has moved on. Even BoZo is unlikely to call his new gay or BME MPs "Tank topped bum boys" or "Flag waving picanninies", not to their faces anyway.
    like every time .
    Nah.


    What would happen to a Premier League football club that didn't support Pride?
    Probably the same as a club that didn't embroidered poppies on its shirts in November. Virtue signalling is policed by social media nowadays.
    Yes, they aren't independently supporting Pride, I would say they were shamed into it. It is a shame that diversity has become an industry, I doubt it really helps the cause that much, as everything is reduced to a slogan
    No, I think it is genuine, at least at Leicester City. We have a very diverse crowd. More WWC than the city in general, but things are changing. A few rows in front of me there is a headscarfed family, completely unmarked upon. Not something I would have expected twenty years ago.

    While clearly @Alanbrooke and a few others yearn for a return of the casual racism, homophobia and misogyny of the Seventies as one of their Brexit goals, I cannot see it myself. Those days are gone.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040

    saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlementdust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
    are you doing it for free ?

    otherwise all youre really doing is taking your chunk of the carcass before the creditors.
    I’m intending to succeed. But if you’d prefer the company to go bust and remove a major employer from one of those towns that you profess to worry about, I’ll down tools instead.
    so that's a no then

    I think it’s lovely you work for free, Mr Brooke!

    of course I don't but neither do I try to portray paid work as charity and saving mankind

    I think you’re projecting a teensy bit.

    would I do that ?

    Never!!!

    No rain in Warwickshire for a couple of hours now. Drought approaches!

    Here’s wishing you and yours a great Xmas and new year.

    You too Joff, hope you and family have a cracking break and you have bought an even bigger cigar than last year, Cheers :wink:

  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited December 2019
    "Come mothers and fathers throughout the land

    And don’t criticize what you can’t understand

    Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command..."


    "The report is called ‘Only adults? Good practices in legal gender recognition for youth’. Its purpose is to help trans groups in several countries bring about changes in the law to allow children to legally change their gender, without adult approval and without needing the approval of any authorities. ‘We hope this report will be a powerful tool for activists and NGOs working to advance the rights of trans youth across Europe and beyond,’ says the foreword.

    As you’d expect of a report co-written by the staff of a major law firm, it’s a comprehensive and solid document, summarising law, policy and ‘advocacy’ across several countries. Based on the contributions of trans groups from around the world (including two in the UK, one of which is not named), it collects and shares ‘best practice’ in ‘lobbying’ to change the law so that parents no longer have a say on their child’s legal gender.

    In the words of the report:

    ‘It is recognised that the requirement for parental consent or the consent of a legal guardian can be restrictive and problematic for minors.’ "

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    saddened said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.

    Johnson now has a chance to shape a new settlement ( assuming he doesn't screw things up ) the question being who benefits and who is out. Middle class lefties are probably in for 10 years of seeing their sacred cows sent to the abbatoir, the North and Midlands might gain in importance once the dust has settled at the expense of London.

    In all of this the EU will just be one factor which may or may not influence economic performance. Important yes like say the oil price or interest rates but not life defining. Were off in a different direction.

    I suppose you can call “nowhere fast” a direction.
    youll still be griping in a decades time as the world changes around you.
    In a decade’s time Britain will have slipped further behind its peers, become more and more of a backwater and you’ll still be perkily whistling about Britain being about to go in a different direction.
    And you'll still be creaming money out of pensions, while claiming to be a wealth creator. Some things change. Some things don't.
    I’ve been busy this month trying to save a company from insolvency. Is that enough social good for you?
    How much wealth did you create? If the company does become insolvent do you still get paid?
  • nunu2 said:
    Well, if Evan Scrimshaw says so.....game over.

    One possible teeny tiny flaw in his logic.....it appears his model is based on current levels of support, and as we all know, there's a lot of water to flow under the Holyrood Bridge before the actual elections....
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,222
    I see that Andrea Leadsom's decision to allow sale of Cobbam is trending this morning. Classic bad news strategy to avoid serious scrutiny in Parliament, in press etc. Gives the stone the hedge funds, US financiers, military industrial complex tin foil hat wearers something to shout about on Twitter.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 48,606
    Foxy said:

    While clearly @Alanbrooke and a few others yearn for a return of the casual racism, homophobia and misogyny of the Seventies as one of their Brexit goals, I cannot see it myself. Those days are gone.

    We just had an election that resulted in the gayest parliament in the world. Look at the great offices of state and tell me this is not representative, maybe even over-representative, of multicultural Britain. Even more than is seen in the stands of LCFC. The Government now has MPs from parts of the country that haven't seen a Tory for decades. Many decades. And unlike Labour, we elect our leader on ability, not because it has to show it has overcome its innate misogyny.

    We have a very twenty-first century Govt., listening to and implementing what its people want.

    So as it is the season of goodwill, less of the causal stupidity, hey?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040
    isam said:

    "Come mothers and fathers throughout the land

    And don’t criticize what you can’t understand

    Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command..."


    "The report is called ‘Only adults? Good practices in legal gender recognition for youth’. Its purpose is to help trans groups in several countries bring about changes in the law to allow children to legally change their gender, without adult approval and without needing the approval of any authorities. ‘We hope this report will be a powerful tool for activists and NGOs working to advance the rights of trans youth across Europe and beyond,’ says the foreword.

    As you’d expect of a report co-written by the staff of a major law firm, it’s a comprehensive and solid document, summarising law, policy and ‘advocacy’ across several countries. Based on the contributions of trans groups from around the world (including two in the UK, one of which is not named), it collects and shares ‘best practice’ in ‘lobbying’ to change the law so that parents no longer have a say on their child’s legal gender.

    In the words of the report:

    ‘It is recognised that the requirement for parental consent or the consent of a legal guardian can be restrictive and problematic for minors.’ "

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/12/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/


    And don’t criticize what you can’t understand

    Bob Dylan will never cut it on PB
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 48,606

    MattW said:

    speedy2 said:

    "could benefit by asking itselves why support for independence in Scotland, for example, remains so high – and by trying to answer the question as honestly as possible."

    Well America wanted independence from the UK, the American South wanted independence from America, Ireland wanted independence from the UK, Northern Ireland wanted independence from Ireland, the UK wants independence from the EU, Scotland wants independence from the UK, Aberdeen wants independence from Scotland, the North wants more powers from the South, London wants to take powers from the rest of the UK, even Western Canada and East Canada want more power from each other over each other.

    It's an Anglosaxon-Britanic tradition called fierce individualism.

    Nice list.

    Except that Scotland does NOT want independence from the UK.

    :-)
    But let's not ask them, just in case.
    This generation has been asked.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    Foxy said:

    While clearly @Alanbrooke and a few others yearn for a return of the casual racism, homophobia and misogyny of the Seventies as one of their Brexit goals, I cannot see it myself. Those days are gone.

    We just had an election that resulted in the gayest parliament in the world. Look at the great offices of state and tell me this is not representative, maybe even over-representative, of multicultural Britain. Even more than is seen in the stands of LCFC. The Government now has MPs from parts of the country that haven't seen a Tory for decades. Many decades. And unlike Labour, we elect our leader on ability, not because it has to show it has overcome its innate misogyny.

    We have a very twenty-first century Govt., listening to and implementing what its people want.

    So as it is the season of goodwill, less of the causal stupidity, hey?
    https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/status/1207249764053659648
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    .

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The delightfully cynical Jacques Chirac used to say avoid referendums as voters simply answer another question. And that's what happening here.

    Mr H you still think our relationship with the EU is the key event Id say youre missing the point. A generational shift is taking place in which large chunks of the Blair settlement are being junked. The EU is a side issue and not one which is going to hugely impact the future shape of the nation.


    Which sacred cows do you see heading to the abbatoir?

    restrictions on free speech, the PC agenda, jobs for the lefty boys in quangos ( they'll all now be righty boys ). London uber alles ( though it will still be important ), immigration.

    That's just immediate reaction, thoigh Im sure there will be lots of things I don't see as issues which will upset people.

    What will we be able to say and do in 10 years that we can’t now thanks to the PC agenda being swept away?

    Jobs for the boys is just standard fare. As for London, the government is not going to harm its cash cow. It will just borrow more. Immigration will undoubtedly fall for many reasons.

    For me, the biggest change is likely to be the UK no longer existing.

    Rolling back PC is not going to anyway.
    like every time .
    Nah.


    What would happen to a Premier League football club that didn't support Pride?
    Probably the same as a club that didn' reduced to a slogan
    No, I think it is genuine, at least at Leicester City. We have a very diverse crowd. More WWC than the city in general, but things are changing. A few rows in front of me there is a headscarfed family, completely unmarked upon. Not something I would have expected twenty years ago.

    While clearly @Alanbrooke and a few others yearn for a return of the casual racism, homophobia and misogyny of the Seventies as one of their Brexit goals, I cannot see it myself. Those days are gone.
    LOL

    Im married to a foreigner - she's english

  • eekeek Posts: 22,805

    nunu2 said:
    Well, if Evan Scrimshaw says so.....game over.

    One possible teeny tiny flaw in his logic.....it appears his model is based on current levels of support, and as we all know, there's a lot of water to flow under the Holyrood Bridge before the actual elections....
    Boris will need to throw both more money at Scotland and get people to constantly point out how much worse things delegated there are compared to South of the border
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 22,040
    eek said:

    nunu2 said:
    Well, if Evan Scrimshaw says so.....game over.

    One possible teeny tiny flaw in his logic.....it appears his model is based on current levels of support, and as we all know, there's a lot of water to flow under the Holyrood Bridge before the actual elections....
    Boris will need to throw both more money at Scotland and get people to constantly point out how much worse things delegated there are compared to South of the border
    Nah

    call the SNP out on their dismal record of running Scotland
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 34,931
    Jonathan said:

    Brexit has its own vocabulary, diverge from the one true path and you are labelled a remoaner. More generally when a right winger doesn’t like how you apply free speech, you get accused of not being patriotic or moral. Very PC, just of a different hue.

    Yes, there is a new PC in town.

    Example: I used to feel relaxed about calling people who are thick and racist "thick and racist".

    Would be very wary of that now. They'd scream abuse and play the "elitist" card to shut me up.

    It's not healthy for debate. If you suppress things they come back to bite you hard one day.

  • Before or after tax?
This discussion has been closed.