...only difference it will make to Scotland is decisions will be made in Scotland and not Westminster, it cannot be worse than it is today. People on here can witter away with their delusions about the great UK, after the deed is done they will fall in line and take the best option , which the SNP know well and published yesterday.
But they won't all be made in Scotland, if you decide to carry on using the pound! Decisions on interest rates, quantitative easing and the like will be made with the situation in the rest of the UK being given much greater weight (simply because of the population ratios). Look what that situation has done to countries like Greece and Portugal...
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Most people would IMO be happy with something like 10 to 20,000 immigrants a year, provided they were highly skilled and were applying for jobs with shortages. So I don't think it's right to describe most people as being completely anti-immigration.
Personally I have no great problem how large immigration is as long as it is matched by emigration or death. The problem for me is purely one of numbers. I can see no single country in the world where I would have an issue with migration from (so long as the individual migrants met basic security requirements) as long as we have a net migration/population growth of effectively zero.
That results in an ageing population if you aren't careful. Thankfully for us the people coming here from within aeurope are young and the people retiring to Spain and France aren't.
And of course the 100,000s of extra school places are included in all the cost/benefit calcs.
...only difference it will make to Scotland is decisions will be made in Scotland and not Westminster, it cannot be worse than it is today. People on here can witter away with their delusions about the great UK, after the deed is done they will fall in line and take the best option , which the SNP know well and published yesterday.
But they won't all be made in Scotland, if you decide to carry on using the pound! Decisions on interest rates, quantitative easing and the like will be made with the situation in the rest of the UK being given much greater weight (simply because of the population ratios). Look what that situation has done to countries like Greece and Portugal...
I do not know how anyone can look at those countries (and other casualties such as Eire) and not reflect on the chronic disadvantages that arise for a country that cannot set its own monetary policy, print its own currency or even have any say on their rate of exchange.
The SNP have called this wrong in a spectacular way. They could have made a much more coherent case for a separate Scottish pound and really should have done. Given the asburdity of their current position I frankly wonder if it is still too late. They obviously did polling which indicated that people would be frightened if their pensions and benefits were not being paid in UK pounds but the damage to their economic case and their credibility given the assumptions that rUK are willing to play along at all are even more damaging.
I am very strongly against independence but if we do go down that road our own currency will be essential.
There are many things that are great in theory, but in practice cause a shedload of problems - mass immigration is one of these. People on my side of the political divide may hate to admit it, but we messed up on this big time. Because we did not think it was a problem, we just assumed that anyone reasonable would think the same. But we were the unreasonable ones. This is just one we have to suck up and not get wrong again.
There are many things that are great in theory, but in practice cause a shedload of problems - mass immigration is one of these. People on my side of the political divide may hate to admit it, but we messed up on this big time. Because we did not think it was a problem, we just assumed that anyone reasonable would think the same. But we were the unreasonable ones. This is just one we have to suck up and not get wrong again.
Well played to you for saying so, I will have to buy back my Southam shares at a loss
One thing occurred to me as I was listening to PMQs - I think Ed really believes he is Canute, and can effect worldwide energy wholesale prices as if they were the tide.
He actually believes he can do it with no ill effects.
The problems are: 1) He is not Canute; 2) Canute said it to prove his fallibility.
BTW, a tip: PMQs is great to listen to as you knead dough. Just imagine the dough is your least favourite MP ...
No rebalancing evident at all in this morning's 2nd Q3 GDP release.
Dire net trade and investment figures. British consumer doing the heavy lifting as usual. That is not sustainable.
30 years of idiot Thatcherite economics has bombed the UK economy out.
Why don't you read the bulletins, Ben?
Note this quote from the headlines to this morning's GDP and the Labour Market release:
The services industries continued to act as the main driver of growth in Q3 2013, increasing by 0.7% and contributing 0.6 percentage points to GDP growth. However, growth was widespread, with the production and construction industries also experiencing positive growth in the latest quarter.
To claim the current economic growth is being solely driven by household consumption is disingenuous. With strong growth in employment and earnings a rise in consumption is hardly surprising:
...in the third quarter of 2013[, t]he rate of employment increased for the sixth consecutive quarter, reaching 71.8% and up from 71.2% in Q3 2012. Over the same quarter, total weekly hours increased for the ninth successive quarter to reach 962.7 million hours while the unemployment rate fell by 0.2 percentage points to 7.6%.
...
Other key categories of income also show positive contributions to GDP. Gross operating surplus grew by 5.2%; other incomes increased by 0.7%; and taxes less subsidies saw an increase of 2.7% over the quarter.
Gross capital formation (investment) also contributed to growth. Yes, the trade figures were disappointing, but this is not sufficient reason to conclude that there has been no beneficial economic rebalancing.
@dhothersall: That @Independent Salmond cartoon now being described as "anti-Scottish" and "hate" by utterly humourless Nats. SNP: a party or a religion?
The SNP have called this wrong in a spectacular way. They could have made a much more coherent case for a separate Scottish pound and really should have done. Given the asburdity of their current position I frankly wonder if it is still too late. They obviously did polling which indicated that people would be frightened if their pensions and benefits were not being paid in UK pounds but the damage to their economic case and their credibility given the assumptions that rUK are willing to play along at all are even more damaging.
Agreed. And so far Alec Salmond and co. only seem to be addressing the first half of the problem; they say (reasonably, I think) that rUK will see the merit in a Sterling Zone which includes Scotland, but I've not seen any answer at all (I don't think) to the point that what'll happen afterwards regarding the currency will quite probably not be in Scotland's best interest. Has Salmond, or even anyone here on PB, tried to answer the latter question?
The SNP have called this wrong in a spectacular way. They could have made a much more coherent case for a separate Scottish pound and really should have done. Given the asburdity of their current position I frankly wonder if it is still too late. They obviously did polling which indicated that people would be frightened if their pensions and benefits were not being paid in UK pounds but the damage to their economic case and their credibility given the assumptions that rUK are willing to play along at all are even more damaging.
Agreed. And so far Alec Salmond and co. only seem to be addressing the first half of the problem; they say (reasonably, I think) that rUK will see the merit in a Sterling Zone which includes Scotland, but I've not seen any answer at all (I don't think) to the point that what'll happen afterwards regarding the currency will quite probably not be in Scotland's best interest. Has Salmond, or even anyone here on PB, tried to answer the latter question?
No Nat has because you either have sterling with a fiscal pact or no input at all or your own currency or the euro.
And it will dawn on people, pace perhaps Salmond's comment recently re. the euro (which I haven't seen), that Sterling is the least best option if you actually want, you know, independence.
The only thing more hilarious than out of touch scottish tory surgers quoting rabid scottish labour activists as if they were the word of god after Falkirk, are unionists pretending that not liking an answer is the same as not getting one.
Happily it will be the scottish public who will decide on who they believe on what answers. Who knows? One day the No campaign might actually get round to actually having a ground campaign to speak of for the referendum. One that is going to be led by most of the exact same people who were behind Iain Gray's electoral 'triumph' in 2011.
The only thing more hilarious than out of touch scottish tory surgers quoting rabid scottish labour activists as if they were the word of god after Falkirk, are unionists pretending that not liking an answer is the same as not getting one.
If you're referring to my question - how will Scotland avoid serious disadvantage from being the minor partner in a currency union - then what is the answer that you think unionists don't like?
Eds big PMQ problem is that he cant go on the economy.
Wiser heads will realise this is a problem for a GE campaign too.
Cameron's "He can't ask about the economy/deficit/unemployment" routine is getting tiresome though.
But it's true, and those are massively important areas of interest for the public. Indeed, Labour spent the first couple of years of this parliament concentrating on them.
Cameron should continue pointing out how Labour got those arguments wrong.
Stop lecturing the Scots. They want freedom, not wealth - Westminster's arrogance has played straight into the SNP's hands: next year's Scottish referendum could deliver the shock of the century
An empire that reached across oceans now struggles to reach across the Irish Sea, Hadrian's Wall and Offa's Dyke. Most of Ireland broke away in 1922, due to Westminster's mishandling. Today the English would be well-advised to stop lecturing the Scots and silence the claque of Scots expatriate scaremongers clearly appalled at becoming foreigners in their adopted land. Humility all round is urgently needed.
Welcome back ALP. I have rather missed your yellow boxes ;-)
Thanks, Dr Sox.
It is surprising how quickly time passes when you avert your eyes from pb. I had hoped to slip back in unnoticed but I guess it must be a few weeks since I last posted.
Have got myself suck[er]ed into returning to the land of Mammon but at least it is only on a project rather than permanent basis. It will nevertheless occupy most of my time up until Christmas so today's visit will be brief and my returns scarce for the next few weeks.
Still, it is pleasing to see a day pass without tim claiming that George is blowing a housing bubble.
Will try to be around for the Autumn Statement and to note Robert Chote's revised OBR forecast. Both should merit a surfeit of yellow boxes!
Stop lecturing the Scots. They want freedom, not wealth - Westminster's arrogance has played straight into the SNP's hands: next year's Scottish referendum could deliver the shock of the century
An empire that reached across oceans now struggles to reach across the Irish Sea, Hadrian's Wall and Offa's Dyke. Most of Ireland broke away in 1922, due to Westminster's mishandling. Today the English would be well-advised to stop lecturing the Scots and silence the claque of Scots expatriate scaremongers clearly appalled at becoming foreigners in their adopted land. Humility all round is urgently needed.
From this I presume you are in favour of the "Scot" (or whatever you want to call your own new currency) with a Scottish central bank printing its own currency and acting as lender of last resort?
The only thing more hilarious than out of touch scottish tory surgers quoting rabid scottish labour activists as if they were the word of god after Falkirk, are unionists pretending that not liking an answer is the same as not getting one.
If you're referring to my question - how will Scotland avoid serious disadvantage from being the minor partner in a currency union - then what is the answer that you think unionists don't like?
That your serious disadvantages are overstated and simply more unionist spin. I wouldn't worry about it since unionists will classify anything that contradicts their view as Yes spin. Which is why it was always going to boil down to trust in the politicians on both sides of the argument from those actually making the decision next year. The scottish public.
Good luck with that ground campaign. Maybe if you ask extra nicely SLAB could start it in Falkirk with Cammie, Clegg or little Ed leading the charge?
The SNP have called this wrong in a spectacular way. They could have made a much more coherent case for a separate Scottish pound and really should have done. Given the asburdity of their current position I frankly wonder if it is still too late. They obviously did polling which indicated that people would be frightened if their pensions and benefits were not being paid in UK pounds but the damage to their economic case and their credibility given the assumptions that rUK are willing to play along at all are even more damaging.
Agreed. And so far Alec Salmond and co. only seem to be addressing the first half of the problem; they say (reasonably, I think) that rUK will see the merit in a Sterling Zone which includes Scotland, but I've not seen any answer at all (I don't think) to the point that what'll happen afterwards regarding the currency will quite probably not be in Scotland's best interest. Has Salmond, or even anyone here on PB, tried to answer the latter question?
It is extremely simple , they have their chosen negotiating position as do Westminster. When the dust settles they will will do what is required ie it will be
One from however many, not exactly rocket science
1. Keep sterling , deal with rump UK 2. Keep Sterling , Feck UK and we are debt free 3. Own currency 4. Euro 5. Use US Dollar 6. Whatever
Their preference as sensible adults is option 1 , bluster from Unionists is expected as they know if they lose they will also choose 1 but have to keep up teh scare tactics.
David Cameron told by MPs that attacking green agenda risks Tory seats http://tgr.ph/IhfjQ8
Fortunately the Lib Dems are not the threat they used to be.
They certainly aren't but since there are so many tory lib dem marginals up for grabs even a small threat is enough to upset some tory MPs what with the kippers set to take another big chunk of votes out of those skittish tory MPs in some marginals.
The SNP have called this wrong in a spectacular way. They could have made a much more coherent case for a separate Scottish pound and really should have done. Given the asburdity of their current position I frankly wonder if it is still too late. They obviously did polling which indicated that people would be frightened if their pensions and benefits were not being paid in UK pounds but the damage to their economic case and their credibility given the assumptions that rUK are willing to play along at all are even more damaging.
Agreed. And so far Alec Salmond and co. only seem to be addressing the first half of the problem; they say (reasonably, I think) that rUK will see the merit in a Sterling Zone which includes Scotland, but I've not seen any answer at all (I don't think) to the point that what'll happen afterwards regarding the currency will quite probably not be in Scotland's best interest. Has Salmond, or even anyone here on PB, tried to answer the latter question?
No Nat has because you either have sterling with a fiscal pact or no input at all or your own currency or the euro.
And it will dawn on people, pace perhaps Salmond's comment recently re. the euro (which I haven't seen), that Sterling is the least best option if you actually want, you know, independence.
They have said many times , the best starting point is sterling , for the future it is own currency or Euro depending on when circumstances make it better.
England gives Scotland the purely Scottish bits of RBS, the Royal Bank of Scotland Scottish branch network, Fred Goodwin's massive HQ building in Gogarburn and so on. The Royal Bank of Scotland drops the tarnished RBS moniker which was anyway a Goodwin innovation in 2003-2004 when he wanted to create a global brand and build the world's biggest bank (which RBS briefly became at precisely the wrong moment.)
The Bank of England then sends the Scottish government a letter saying that it won't be lender of last resort for what remains of the Scottish banking system.
Far-fetched? Don't think so. What other outcomes are possible? I welcome any (polite) suggestions.
Stop lecturing the Scots. They want freedom, not wealth - Westminster's arrogance has played straight into the SNP's hands: next year's Scottish referendum could deliver the shock of the century
An empire that reached across oceans now struggles to reach across the Irish Sea, Hadrian's Wall and Offa's Dyke. Most of Ireland broke away in 1922, due to Westminster's mishandling. Today the English would be well-advised to stop lecturing the Scots and silence the claque of Scots expatriate scaremongers clearly appalled at becoming foreigners in their adopted land. Humility all round is urgently needed.
You are not well in the head Scott, do you expect them to spend all their time replying to fatuous comments from unionists. It is very clear they are going only a case of when , perhaps if rump UK stump up enough cash it could be dragged out a bit , but they are going.
The SNP have called this wrong in a spectacular way. They could have made a much more coherent case for a separate Scottish pound and really should have done. Given the asburdity of their current position I frankly wonder if it is still too late. They obviously did polling which indicated that people would be frightened if their pensions and benefits were not being paid in UK pounds but the damage to their economic case and their credibility given the assumptions that rUK are willing to play along at all are even more damaging.
Agreed. And so far Alec Salmond and co. only seem to be addressing the first half of the problem; they say (reasonably, I think) that rUK will see the merit in a Sterling Zone which includes Scotland, but I've not seen any answer at all (I don't think) to the point that what'll happen afterwards regarding the currency will quite probably not be in Scotland's best interest. Has Salmond, or even anyone here on PB, tried to answer the latter question?
It is extremely simple , they have their chosen negotiating position as do Westminster. When the dust settles they will will do what is required ie it will be
One from however many, not exactly rocket science
1. Keep sterling , deal with rump UK 2. Keep Sterling , Feck UK and we are debt free 3. Own currency 4. Euro 5. Use US Dollar 6. Whatever
Their preference as sensible adults is option 1 , bluster from Unionists is expected as they know if they lose they will also choose 1 but have to keep up teh scare tactics.
1. Then BoE will continue to set interest rates, no longer taking Scotland into account. 2. Then BoE will continue to set interest rates, no longer taking Scotland into account, and no one will lend to Scotland. 3. Actually your best option, but since Scotland will be an oil/gas state, no real difference to 5. 4. Germany will control your economy and set your interest rates. 5. Might work, but risky. 6. I think you need some real ideas by now...
If you're referring to my question - how will Scotland avoid serious disadvantage from being the minor partner in a currency union - then what is the answer that you think unionists don't like?
That your serious disadvantages are overstated and simply more unionist spin. I wouldn't worry about it since unionists will classify anything that contradicts their view as Yes spin.
That's assertion, not argument. What's your argument? We've seen in the Eurozone over the last few years several countries getting into a horrendous mess because they can't (a) set their own interest rates, or (b) devalue their currency.
If you're confident Scotland and rUK are sufficiently similar, economically speaking, for this not to be an issue in the foreseeable future then that's fine. But what if the two economies diverge? What if some sector of the economy that is particularly important to one country or the other does especially well (or badly), disproportionately affecting that country's economy? ISTM there's significant risk for Scotland here.
Oh, and I'm not a 'Better Together' man, by the way. I'm pretty much neutral on whether Scotland votes Yes or No, with a slight lean towards preferring Yes because of all the Labour Westminster seats that will disappear...
Tony Blair asked me to 'help invade Zimbabwe', says Thabo Mbeki South Africa's former president claims that his country was asked to help Britain topple Robert Mugabe
. The policy of both the Libertarian Alliance and the Libertarian Party is for controlled borders and limits on immigration.
That's not "Libertarian" then is it? It is reactionary conservative.
Nope, again like Tim you fail utterly to understand the basic principles of Libertarianism (which is not, needless to say, anarchism).
Once you have actually learnt something about Libertarianism come on back and have an informed debate.Until then all you have to offer are meaningless comments.
I imagine Libertarianism is a broad church (after all, you get people who describe themselves as libertarian socialists). The argument that tim and Ben M are advancing against you is anarcho-capitalism, but that's only one form of libertarianism.
If you're referring to my question - how will Scotland avoid serious disadvantage from being the minor partner in a currency union - then what is the answer that you think unionists don't like?
That your serious disadvantages are overstated and simply more unionist spin. I wouldn't worry about it since unionists will classify anything that contradicts their view as Yes spin.
That's assertion, not argument.
Which is what I correctly concluded would be your response though you don't seem to have noticed.
The No campaign make assertions and the Yes campaign will make assertions but it's the scottish public who will decide who they trust the most, or the least in the end.
As I said good luck with that ground campaign since I know how fatal complacency would be to a party like SLAB from experience of the 2011 campaign.
Alex Salmond softens hardline stance over Nato's nuclear weapons Independent Scotland would operate 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, says UK government as SNP tries to allay Washington's fears
England gives Scotland the purely Scottish bits of RBS, the Royal Bank of Scotland Scottish branch network, Fred Goodwin's massive HQ building in Gogarburn and so on. The Royal Bank of Scotland drops the tarnished RBS moniker which was anyway a Goodwin innovation in 2003-2004 when he wanted to create a global brand and build the world's biggest bank (which RBS briefly became at precisely the wrong moment.)
The Bank of England then sends the Scottish government a letter saying that it won't be lender of last resort for what remains of the Scottish banking system.
Far-fetched? Don't think so. What other outcomes are possible? I welcome any (polite) suggestions.
Perhaps the most obvious solution is that RBS is rebranded as Nat West and the group is reconstituted in England so they have the protection of the BoE. The consequences for the housing and private school market in Edinburgh would be very severe with thousands of well paid head office jobs going south. Whether they then chose to spin off RBS would no doubt depend on a lot of concerns, one of which would be what you can get for a Bank without a lender of last resort.
HBOS will effectively do the same through Lloyds although to be fair some of that has happened already.
The bigger problem is what happens to Standard Life and other fund managers. At the moment they sell to clients across the UK backed by the FSCS and the FS Ombudsman as well as the BoE. I suspect that they would have been highly alarmed about the half hearted nonsense about creating our own regulators in Scotland in the "white paper" yesterday. If they start to move south as well the consequences for the tax base will be frightening.
It is quite an extraordinary move and it opens the possibility of an independent Scotland ejecting the UK’s Trident submarines but then letting them back in to refuelling, reloading or repairs — and using Faslane to do it.
The reason, of course, is the United States. American military sources have made it clear that they would resist Scotland’s entry to NATO without an assurance that they could continue to use Faslane for their own Trident submarines.
Which is what I correctly concluded would be your response though you don't seem to have noticed.
Well done, you must be very pleased with yourself. So what I've got from this exchange and other people's comments is that the SNP intends to use Sterling for a period of time short enough that there won't be any issues with Scotland not being in control of its currency, and then (maybe? Only malcolmg has said this so far) will seek to join the Euro. Which they will also have hardly any control over...
As I said good luck with that ground campaign since I know how fatal complacency would be to a party like SLAB from experience of the 2011 campaign.
Huh? I don't care about either side's ground campaign; I'm broadly neutral on the actual referendum question. It's just that I'm baffled by what seems to be a gaping hole in the logic of the SNP's position.
England gives Scotland the purely Scottish bits of RBS, the Royal Bank of Scotland Scottish branch network, Fred Goodwin's massive HQ building in Gogarburn and so on. The Royal Bank of Scotland drops the tarnished RBS moniker which was anyway a Goodwin innovation in 2003-2004 when he wanted to create a global brand and build the world's biggest bank (which RBS briefly became at precisely the wrong moment.)
The Bank of England then sends the Scottish government a letter saying that it won't be lender of last resort for what remains of the Scottish banking system.
Far-fetched? Don't think so. What other outcomes are possible? I welcome any (polite) suggestions.
Is of no concern to me. You seem to be having trouble realising that I'm not interested in unionists spin, conclusions and assertions any more than you are interested in the assertions of those backing Yes.
Stop lecturing the Scots. They want freedom, not wealth - Westminster's arrogance has played straight into the SNP's hands: next year's Scottish referendum could deliver the shock of the century
An empire that reached across oceans now struggles to reach across the Irish Sea, Hadrian's Wall and Offa's Dyke. Most of Ireland broke away in 1922, due to Westminster's mishandling. Today the English would be well-advised to stop lecturing the Scots and silence the claque of Scots expatriate scaremongers clearly appalled at becoming foreigners in their adopted land. Humility all round is urgently needed.
I do agree that the No campaign has been pretty awful in terms of focus and approach, and that supporters of independence will definitely care about freedom, real or imagine depending on which side you are on, more than wealth, and also that the betting levels are currently ridiculously overstating Yes's chances...but I will note that in seems that anything any pro-unionists do or say is characterised by the SNP as playing into their hands by their online supporters (yes, I've made a generalization, stone me).
Simple statistical chance would suggest the unionists have made at least one positive move in all this time, but if someone stays silent it plays into the SNP's hand, if they speak they said the wrong thing, if they said the right thing it was the wrong person saying it, if it was the right person saying the right thing no-one heard it or cared.
'No' need to do a lot better, and I think they will lose as it happens, but 'Yes' also need to tone it down a little bit. I get optimism is key to the campaign, but when everything i supposedly helping their side and argument? It just lacks credibility and makes it harder for idiots like me determine how useful such developments are to either side. Obviously I don't get a say in what happens, but I am interested in the outcome.
England gives Scotland the purely Scottish bits of RBS, the Royal Bank of Scotland Scottish branch network, Fred Goodwin's massive HQ building in Gogarburn and so on. The Royal Bank of Scotland drops the tarnished RBS moniker which was anyway a Goodwin innovation in 2003-2004 when he wanted to create a global brand and build the world's biggest bank (which RBS briefly became at precisely the wrong moment.)
The Bank of England then sends the Scottish government a letter saying that it won't be lender of last resort for what remains of the Scottish banking system.
Far-fetched? Don't think so. What other outcomes are possible? I welcome any (polite) suggestions.
Perhaps the most obvious solution is that RBS is rebranded as Nat West and the group is reconstituted in England so they have the protection of the BoE. The consequences for the housing and private school market in Edinburgh would be very severe with thousands of well paid head office jobs going south. Whether they then chose to spin off RBS would no doubt depend on a lot of concerns, one of which would be what you can get for a Bank without a lender of last resort.
HBOS will effectively do the same through Lloyds although to be fair some of that has happened already.
The bigger problem is what happens to Standard Life and other fund managers. At the moment they sell to clients across the UK backed by the FSCS and the FS Ombudsman as well as the BoE. I suspect that they would have been highly alarmed about the half hearted nonsense about creating our own regulators in Scotland in the "white paper" yesterday. If they start to move south as well the consequences for the tax base will be frightening.
Most of the big jobs are in Bishopgate in any case, what a fearty brainwashed into thinking you are incapable of doing anything.
Tony Blair asked me to 'help invade Zimbabwe', says Thabo Mbeki South Africa's former president claims that his country was asked to help Britain topple Robert Mugabe
Probably one that would rehabilitate Blair's reputation among Labour supporters, tbh... "why are we invading Iraq not Zimbabwe?" was a pretty common question many were asking back then.
Is of no concern to me. You seem to be having trouble realising that I'm not interested in unionists spin, conclusions and assertions any more than you are interested in the assertions of those backing Yes.
Hilarious today to see Fraser Wishart begging the PM to add a bit of A-list to the referendum campaign by getting involved.
His sillies idea since the one that referees should declare which team they support.
Wonder if the Glasgow Commonwealth games will effect the referendum . Only a couple of months separate them and , if they go well. could convince some voters that Scotland can make a success of being a separate country
England gives Scotland the purely Scottish bits of RBS, the Royal Bank of Scotland Scottish branch network, Fred Goodwin's massive HQ building in Gogarburn and so on. The Royal Bank of Scotland drops the tarnished RBS moniker which was anyway a Goodwin innovation in 2003-2004 when he wanted to create a global brand and build the world's biggest bank (which RBS briefly became at precisely the wrong moment.)
The Bank of England then sends the Scottish government a letter saying that it won't be lender of last resort for what remains of the Scottish banking system.
Far-fetched? Don't think so. What other outcomes are possible? I welcome any (polite) suggestions.
Perhaps the most obvious solution is that RBS is rebranded as Nat West and the group is reconstituted in England so they have the protection of the BoE. The consequences for the housing and private school market in Edinburgh would be very severe with thousands of well paid head office jobs going south. Whether they then chose to spin off RBS would no doubt depend on a lot of concerns, one of which would be what you can get for a Bank without a lender of last resort.
HBOS will effectively do the same through Lloyds although to be fair some of that has happened already.
The bigger problem is what happens to Standard Life and other fund managers. At the moment they sell to clients across the UK backed by the FSCS and the FS Ombudsman as well as the BoE. I suspect that they would have been highly alarmed about the half hearted nonsense about creating our own regulators in Scotland in the "white paper" yesterday. If they start to move south as well the consequences for the tax base will be frightening.
Most of the big jobs are in Bishopgate in any case, what a fearty brainwashed into thinking you are incapable of doing anything.
Just the 3,200 white collar workers at Gogarburn getting relocated then...
Wonder if the Glasgow Commonwealth games will effect the referendum . Only a couple of months separate them and , if they go well. could convince some voters that Scotland can make a success of being a separate country
Name any Scottish gold medal prospects...?
For bonus points - name any Scottish golfers that will qualify for the Ryder Cup team for the match at Gleneagles in September.
Eck will be there with his bespoke taxpayer funded tartan breeks on cheering on Lee Westwood, Ian Poulter , Justin Rose.....
Maybe Scotland could use Bitcoins ? or do they sound too much like Britcoins?
If they issued an electronic currency with the key features of bitcoin, namely pseudonymity, irrepudiability, censorship-resistance and low transaction fees, but controlled the money supply to maintain a peg to the Euro or the Dollar, the whole world would use it and they could pay for public services by printing money and they wouldn't need any taxes. The technical problems involved in this are solved, they just need to make the decision that they want free money.
Re the Scotland vote I think there are lots of people who are on the wrong side as such in that they say they do not want independence because they sort of have to but secretly hope for it (and vice verse)-For instance the tories would be better of electorally without Scotland and the SNP would ,if Scotland goes, have nobody to blame -no straw man of London or Westminster for any faults in the future
I'm addicted (almost) to signing petitions but the way this one was worded struck me as utter rubbish. I wasn't, and am not, for example, aware that MP's were demanding a pay increase; I got the impression that many were quite embarrassed at the recommendations of the IPSA.
Wonder if the Glasgow Commonwealth games will effect the referendum . Only a couple of months separate them and , if they go well. could convince some voters that Scotland can make a success of being a separate country
Name any Scottish gold medal prospects...?
For bonus points - name any Scottish golfers that will qualify for the Ryder Cup team for the match at Gleneagles in September.
Eck will be there with his bespoke taxpayer funded tartan breeks on cheering on Lee Westwood, Ian Poulter , Justin Rose.....
I meant more in terms of good organisation, friendly staff etc . Although Britian did very well in terms of medals at the Olympics I think Brits had more pride in their nation for putting on a good show . Could be the same in Scotland
Wonder if the Glasgow Commonwealth games will effect the referendum . Only a couple of months separate them and , if they go well. could convince some voters that Scotland can make a success of being a separate country
The key metric will be where in the medals table a notional combined UK would come, compared to a separate Scotland. I am not sure it will be favourable for the Nats, although of course the response will be that Scotland would have done better if they hadn't had to share training facilities and coaching with the English...
Wonder if the Glasgow Commonwealth games will effect the referendum . Only a couple of months separate them and , if they go well. could convince some voters that Scotland can make a success of being a separate country
Name any Scottish gold medal prospects...?
For bonus points - name any Scottish golfers that will qualify for the Ryder Cup team for the match at Gleneagles in September.
Eck will be there with his bespoke taxpayer funded tartan breeks on cheering on Lee Westwood, Ian Poulter , Justin Rose.....
I meant more in terms of good organisation, friendly staff etc . Although Britian did very well in terms of medals at the Olympics I think Brits had more pride in their nation for putting on a good show . Could be the same in Scotland
Well lets hope they take down the IRA terrorist banners that were hanging up last night inside the venue for the opening ceremony before the Queen arrives.
Is of no concern to me. You seem to be having trouble realising that I'm not interested in unionists spin, conclusions and assertions any more than you are interested in the assertions of those backing Yes.
Hilarious today to see Fraser Wishart begging the PM to add a bit of A-list to the referendum campaign by getting involved.
His sillies idea since the one that referees should declare which team they support.
Hilarious to see cowardly Cammie still self-evidently terrified of a debate. Just the same as with Farage in fact. Yet more proof of the totally gutless fake fop the PB tories have to put up with and pretend they believe in. Immigration, climate change, Europe, international aid, etc. so many issues so very many of them would prefer to side with Farage on but can't because the truth is they are Cameroons and will put up with any old crap from a second rate Blair impersonator like Cammie.
Maybe Scotland could use Bitcoins ? or do they sound too much like Britcoins?
If they issued an electronic currency with the key features of bitcoin, namely pseudonymity, irrepudiability, censorship-resistance and low transaction fees, but controlled the money supply to maintain a peg to the Euro or the Dollar, the whole world would use it and they could pay for public services by printing money and they wouldn't need any taxes. The technical problems involved in this are solved, they just need to make the decision that they want free money.
Now you are talking. I am never quite sure why countries raise taxation in the first place and not just print/issue an agreed amount of money for public spending instead. Would cut down admin and also cut tax avoidance in that effectively everyone pays their share by money dilution through the government printing. I know it can go horribly wrong if mismanaged but nobody has convinced me that it couldn't work if managed
I'm addicted (almost) to signing petitions but the way this one was worded struck me as utter rubbish. I wasn't, and am not, for example, aware that MP's were demanding a pay increase; I got the impression that many were quite embarrassed at the recommendations of the IPSA.
LOL
That's truly pitiful spin even for PB.
I must have missed the part where they all demanded the party leaders stop this terrible largesse and refuse the pay increase at once.
Which is why this seems so odd and indeed "embarrassing".
MPs call for '32% salary increase'
MPs have suggested a 32% increase in their pay to the Commons expenses watchdog, it has been revealed.
Members said they deserved an £86,250 salary in an anonymous survey conducted by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (Ipsa).
The research also found more than a third thought they should keep final-salary pensions.
The findings emerged as Ipsa published a report on its initial consultation into pay and pensions.
Is of no concern to me. You seem to be having trouble realising that I'm not interested in unionists spin, conclusions and assertions any more than you are interested in the assertions of those backing Yes.
Hilarious today to see Fraser Wishart begging the PM to add a bit of A-list to the referendum campaign by getting involved.
His sillies idea since the one that referees should declare which team they support.
Hilarious to see cowardly Cammie still self-evidently terrified of a debate. Just the same as with Farage in fact. Yet more proof of the totally gutless fake fop the PB tories have to put up with and pretend they believe in. Immigration, climate change, Europe, international aid, etc. so many issues so very many of them would prefer to side with Farage on but can't because the truth is they are Cameroons and will put up with any old crap from a second rate Blair impersonator like Cammie.
Cameron doesn't need to - that is the weakness of the SNP's pleading.
Is of no concern to me. You seem to be having trouble realising that I'm not interested in unionists spin, conclusions and assertions any more than you are interested in the assertions of those backing Yes.
Hilarious today to see Fraser Wishart begging the PM to add a bit of A-list to the referendum campaign by getting involved.
His sillies idea since the one that referees should declare which team they support.
Hilarious to see cowardly Cammie still self-evidently terrified of a debate. Just the same as with Farage in fact. Yet more proof of the totally gutless fake fop the PB tories have to put up with and pretend they believe in. Immigration, climate change, Europe, international aid, etc. so many issues so very many of them would prefer to side with Farage on but can't because the truth is they are Cameroons and will put up with any old crap from a second rate Blair impersonator like Cammie.
Cameron doesn't need to - that is the weakness of the SNP's pleading.
You would be the first to complain of interfering in Scottish affairs if Cameron and the UK government stated to campaign for a no vote using the resources of the state (including the office of Prime Minister) Cameron as UK PM should remain officially neutral as he is and it would be not appropriate to debate for a desired outcome of a no vote on this . The reason Salmond wants Cameron to because he is desparate to paint the no vote as being tory led (which is clearly isn't)
England gives Scotland the purely Scottish bits of RBS, the Royal Bank of Scotland Scottish branch network, Fred Goodwin's massive HQ building in Gogarburn and so on. The Royal Bank of Scotland drops the tarnished RBS moniker which was anyway a Goodwin innovation in 2003-2004 when he wanted to create a global brand and build the world's biggest bank (which RBS briefly became at precisely the wrong moment.)
The Bank of England then sends the Scottish government a letter saying that it won't be lender of last resort for what remains of the Scottish banking system.
Far-fetched? Don't think so. What other outcomes are possible? I welcome any (polite) suggestions.
Perhaps the most obvious solution is that RBS is rebranded as Nat West and the group is reconstituted in England so they have the protection of the BoE. The consequences for the housing and private school market in Edinburgh would be very severe with thousands of well paid head office jobs going south. Whether they then chose to spin off RBS would no doubt depend on a lot of concerns, one of which would be what you can get for a Bank without a lender of last resort.
HBOS will effectively do the same through Lloyds although to be fair some of that has happened already.
The bigger problem is what happens to Standard Life and other fund managers. At the moment they sell to clients across the UK backed by the FSCS and the FS Ombudsman as well as the BoE. I suspect that they would have been highly alarmed about the half hearted nonsense about creating our own regulators in Scotland in the "white paper" yesterday. If they start to move south as well the consequences for the tax base will be frightening.
Most of the big jobs are in Bishopgate in any case, what a fearty brainwashed into thinking you are incapable of doing anything.
Just the 3,200 white collar workers at Gogarburn getting relocated then...
Clue for you , The Royal Bank of Scotland will not run itself so maybe some people will be needed in Scotland.
Wonder if the Glasgow Commonwealth games will effect the referendum . Only a couple of months separate them and , if they go well. could convince some voters that Scotland can make a success of being a separate country
Name any Scottish gold medal prospects...?
For bonus points - name any Scottish golfers that will qualify for the Ryder Cup team for the match at Gleneagles in September.
Eck will be there with his bespoke taxpayer funded tartan breeks on cheering on Lee Westwood, Ian Poulter , Justin Rose.....
The big SNP principle... getting rid of Nuclear weapons at Faslane..until the Yanks give them the dog whistle..ya gorra larf
I actually think the 'Don't ask, don't tell' approach to nuclear subs is a reasonable compromise. It acknowledges that an outright no-nuclear policy would have severe international diplomatic ramifications but still retains a distinctive anti-nuclear flavour.
@Mr_Eugenides: Why don’t the SNP want Scotland to have our own independent currency? Surely we’re not too small or too poor? No? So, what is it?
Time for us to speak up for the return of the Groat. After all when Jack W was a lad, he could get 12 £1Scots for 1 £1English. Does Eck really want us to return to that?
I actually think the 'Don't ask, don't tell' approach to nuclear subs is a reasonable compromise. It acknowledges that an outright no-nuclear policy would have severe international diplomatic ramifications but still retains a distinctive anti-nuclear flavour.
And opens the door for Trident on the Clyde.
Let's hope no NATO vessels have ever docked in Dundee on joint manoeuvres with the Royal Marines ...
The big SNP principle... getting rid of Nuclear weapons at Faslane..until the Yanks give them the dog whistle..ya gorra larf
I actually think the 'Don't ask, don't tell' approach to nuclear subs is a reasonable compromise. It acknowledges that an outright no-nuclear policy would have severe international diplomatic ramifications but still retains a distinctive anti-nuclear flavour.
Maybe then Scotland would allow its citizens and companies to 'use 'don't ask don't tell' in their own dealings . Great for dealing with the awkward questions of bribes for foreign contracts etc, tax evasion on small or big scales etc
You would be the first to complain of interfering in Scottish affairs if Cameron and the UK government stated to campaign for a no vote using the resources of the state (including the office of Prime Minister)
You must be horrified at the number of anti-independence papers issued by Westminster, and anti-independence Scottish day trips made by coalition cabinet members.
Or perhaps you know very little about the subject.
You would be the first to complain of interfering in Scottish affairs if Cameron and the UK government stated to campaign for a no vote using the resources of the state (including the office of Prime Minister)
You must be horrified at the number of anti-independence papers issued by Westminster, and anti-independence Scottish day trips made by coalition cabinet members.
Or perhaps you know very little about the subject.
Which presumably Salmond (and you?) wants as he is goading Cameron to debate against him? You cannot have it both ways . If you say (quite correctly) that it is for Scotland alone to decide this then you cannot call Cameron a coward for being a English MP , an English born citizen and a British PM and therefore thinking the same as you and therefore not getting involved in the argument.
It would be interesting to know what seats UKIP have done polling in. If some of the seats are Con / Lab marginals then presumably only some of the 8 seats are being considered for Farage's tilt in 2015 so we could have a de facto shortlist once we see all the results.
@Mr_Eugenides: Why don’t the SNP want Scotland to have our own independent currency? Surely we’re not too small or too poor? No? So, what is it?
It's obvious that Salmond doesn't really want Independence.
His preferred choice is Devomax, but he can't have that now.
Ha Ha.
Yes , surely the true indicator of a sovereign country is to have its own currency. Its ludicrous for such an avowed nationalist to want and indeed seem to beg for the currency of its big (and bad in their eyes for many years) neighbour
It would be interesting to know what seats UKIP have done polling in. If some of the seats are Con / Lab marginals then presumably only some of the 8 seats are being considered for Farage's tilt in 2015 so we could have a de facto shortlist once we see all the results.
Alan Bown (who paid for the polls):
I commissioned Survation to undertake a series of polls, mainly in marginal and frequently Labour-held constituencies, to explore this issue from more angles than previous polling has done. In particular I was interested in the relationship between UKIP and Labour and whether in some Northern areas, where the Conservative brand is badly damaged, UKIP might have actually established itself as the official opposition to Labour.
Comments
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Bit unfair to Blue Nun, I'd say......
The SNP have called this wrong in a spectacular way. They could have made a much more coherent case for a separate Scottish pound and really should have done. Given the asburdity of their current position I frankly wonder if it is still too late. They obviously did polling which indicated that people would be frightened if their pensions and benefits were not being paid in UK pounds but the damage to their economic case and their credibility given the assumptions that rUK are willing to play along at all are even more damaging.
I am very strongly against independence but if we do go down that road our own currency will be essential.
Wiser heads will realise this is a problem for a GE campaign too.
If Cameron as any political sense,he would take this up to a big political fight with the EU.
He actually believes he can do it with no ill effects.
The problems are:
1) He is not Canute;
2) Canute said it to prove his fallibility.
BTW, a tip: PMQs is great to listen to as you knead dough. Just imagine the dough is your least favourite MP ...
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/11/is-laszlo-andor-spinning-for-the-tory-party/
And it will dawn on people, pace perhaps Salmond's comment recently re. the euro (which I haven't seen), that Sterling is the least best option if you actually want, you know, independence.
This is how it should be done.
http://www.finebooksmagazine.com/issue/201106/comic-2.phtml
Happily it will be the scottish public who will decide on who they believe on what answers.
Who knows? One day the No campaign might actually get round to actually having a ground campaign to speak of for the referendum. One that is going to be led by most of the exact same people who were behind Iain Gray's electoral 'triumph' in 2011.
*chortle*
Cameron should continue pointing out how Labour got those arguments wrong.
- Westminster's arrogance has played straight into the SNP's hands: next year's Scottish referendum could deliver the shock of the century http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/26/stop-lecturing-scots-freedom-not-wealth
Welcome back ALP. I have rather missed your yellow boxes ;-)
Thanks, Dr Sox.
It is surprising how quickly time passes when you avert your eyes from pb. I had hoped to slip back in unnoticed but I guess it must be a few weeks since I last posted.
Have got myself suck[er]ed into returning to the land of Mammon but at least it is only on a project rather than permanent basis. It will nevertheless occupy most of my time up until Christmas so today's visit will be brief and my returns scarce for the next few weeks.
Still, it is pleasing to see a day pass without tim claiming that George is blowing a housing bubble.
Will try to be around for the Autumn Statement and to note Robert Chote's revised OBR forecast. Both should merit a surfeit of yellow boxes!
http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article8965610.ece/ALTERNATES/w300/daily-cartoon-20131127.jpg
Has Eck torpedoed his own support?
From this I presume you are in favour of the "Scot" (or whatever you want to call your own new currency) with a Scottish central bank printing its own currency and acting as lender of last resort?
Which is why it was always going to boil down to trust in the politicians on both sides of the argument from those actually making the decision next year. The scottish public.
Good luck with that ground campaign. Maybe if you ask extra nicely SLAB could start it in Falkirk with Cammie, Clegg or little Ed leading the charge?
One from however many, not exactly rocket science
1. Keep sterling , deal with rump UK
2. Keep Sterling , Feck UK and we are debt free
3. Own currency
4. Euro
5. Use US Dollar
6. Whatever
Their preference as sensible adults is option 1 , bluster from Unionists is expected as they know if they lose they will also choose 1 but have to keep up teh scare tactics.
England gives Scotland the purely Scottish bits of RBS, the Royal Bank of Scotland Scottish branch network, Fred Goodwin's massive HQ building in Gogarburn and so on. The Royal Bank of Scotland drops the tarnished RBS moniker which was anyway a Goodwin innovation in 2003-2004 when he wanted to create a global brand and build the world's biggest bank (which RBS briefly became at precisely the wrong moment.)
The Bank of England then sends the Scottish government a letter saying that it won't be lender of last resort for what remains of the Scottish banking system.
Far-fetched? Don't think so. What other outcomes are possible? I welcome any (polite) suggestions.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100248030/will-england-dump-rbs-on-an-independent-scotland-2/
The PB tories always know best.
LOL
2. Then BoE will continue to set interest rates, no longer taking Scotland into account, and no one will lend to Scotland.
3. Actually your best option, but since Scotland will be an oil/gas state, no real difference to 5.
4. Germany will control your economy and set your interest rates.
5. Might work, but risky.
6. I think you need some real ideas by now...
If you're confident Scotland and rUK are sufficiently similar, economically speaking, for this not to be an issue in the foreseeable future then that's fine. But what if the two economies diverge? What if some sector of the economy that is particularly important to one country or the other does especially well (or badly), disproportionately affecting that country's economy? ISTM there's significant risk for Scotland here.
Oh, and I'm not a 'Better Together' man, by the way. I'm pretty much neutral on whether Scotland votes Yes or No, with a slight lean towards preferring Yes because of all the Labour Westminster seats that will disappear...
Tony Blair asked me to 'help invade Zimbabwe', says Thabo Mbeki
South Africa's former president claims that his country was asked to help Britain topple Robert Mugabe
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zimbabwe/10477809/Tony-Blair-asked-me-to-help-invade-Zimbabwe-says-Thabo-Mbeki.html
The No campaign make assertions and the Yes campaign will make assertions but it's the scottish public who will decide who they trust the most, or the least in the end.
As I said good luck with that ground campaign since I know how fatal complacency would be to a party like SLAB from experience of the 2011 campaign.
Alex Salmond softens hardline stance over Nato's nuclear weapons
Independent Scotland would operate 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, says UK government as SNP tries to allay Washington's fears
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/26/alex-salmond-snp-stance-nato-nuclear-weapons
HBOS will effectively do the same through Lloyds although to be fair some of that has happened already.
The bigger problem is what happens to Standard Life and other fund managers. At the moment they sell to clients across the UK backed by the FSCS and the FS Ombudsman as well as the BoE. I suspect that they would have been highly alarmed about the half hearted nonsense about creating our own regulators in Scotland in the "white paper" yesterday. If they start to move south as well the consequences for the tax base will be frightening.
It is quite an extraordinary move and it opens the possibility of an independent Scotland ejecting the UK’s Trident submarines but then letting them back in to refuelling, reloading or repairs — and using Faslane to do it.
The reason, of course, is the United States. American military sources have made it clear that they would resist Scotland’s entry to NATO without an assurance that they could continue to use Faslane for their own Trident submarines.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/11/whats-hidden-inside-the-white-paper/
We're all in this together.
I do agree that the No campaign has been pretty awful in terms of focus and approach, and that supporters of independence will definitely care about freedom, real or imagine depending on which side you are on, more than wealth, and also that the betting levels are currently ridiculously overstating Yes's chances...but I will note that in seems that anything any pro-unionists do or say is characterised by the SNP as playing into their hands by their online supporters (yes, I've made a generalization, stone me).
Simple statistical chance would suggest the unionists have made at least one positive move in all this time, but if someone stays silent it plays into the SNP's hand, if they speak they said the wrong thing, if they said the right thing it was the wrong person saying it, if it was the right person saying the right thing no-one heard it or cared.
'No' need to do a lot better, and I think they will lose as it happens, but 'Yes' also need to tone it down a little bit. I get optimism is key to the campaign, but when everything i supposedly helping their side and argument? It just lacks credibility and makes it harder for idiots like me determine how useful such developments are to either side. Obviously I don't get a say in what happens, but I am interested in the outcome.
His sillies idea since the one that referees should declare which team they support.
For bonus points - name any Scottish golfers that will qualify for the Ryder Cup team for the match at Gleneagles in September.
Eck will be there with his bespoke taxpayer funded tartan breeks on cheering on Lee Westwood, Ian Poulter , Justin Rose.....
We're all in this together.
I'm addicted (almost) to signing petitions but the way this one was worded struck me as utter rubbish.
I wasn't, and am not, for example, aware that MP's were demanding a pay increase; I got the impression that many were quite embarrassed at the recommendations of the IPSA.
Surely Ed will be PM come the glorious day of FREEEEDDOOOMMMM!
Why does Eck not want to debate him? Feart?
I wasn't, and am not, for example, aware that MP's were demanding a pay increase; I got the impression that many were quite embarrassed at the recommendations of the IPSA.
LOL
That's truly pitiful spin even for PB.
I must have missed the part where they all demanded the party leaders stop this terrible largesse and refuse the pay increase at once.
Which is why this seems so odd and indeed "embarrassing".
Cameron as UK PM should remain officially neutral as he is and it would be not appropriate to debate for a desired outcome of a no vote on this . The reason Salmond wants Cameron to because he is desparate to paint the no vote as being tory led (which is clearly isn't)
Let's hope no NATO vessels have ever docked in Dundee on joint manoeuvres with the Royal Marines ...
Its a stupid policy for a government to endorse
Or perhaps you know very little about the subject.
It's obvious that Salmond doesn't really want Independence.
His preferred choice is Devomax, but he can't have that now.
Ha Ha.
I commissioned Survation to undertake a series of polls, mainly in marginal and frequently Labour-held constituencies, to explore this issue from more angles than previous polling has done. In particular I was interested in the relationship between UKIP and Labour and whether in some Northern areas, where the Conservative brand is badly damaged, UKIP might have actually established itself as the official opposition to Labour.
http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Alan-Bown-Statement.pdf