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  • RobD said:


    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.

    It's not enough progress, that's the point. We're going to have to a lot more as a country - but also as a world - to stop climate change.
  • Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:


    Are you saying that at that time you had a detailed understanding of tripartite regulation, the inter-bank lending system, the mortgage market and the credit default swap issue, and realised it was all going wrong and needed more regulation?

    Because if so, I am afraid I don’t believe you. Even most experienced bankers didn’t get these things (therein lay much of the problem).

    I don't believe I told you what my age was. I said I was relatively young but I don't reveal personal details on the Internet, so let's have no more discussion about that thank you.

    I supported more regulation which people like Vince Cable - to his credit - supported and warned of the crash before it happened. I don't claim to have a deep knowledge of regulation, just that in my short experience unfettered capitalism always leads to disaster.
    You said you were a university student in 2017. I am assuming that was undergraduate but let’s assume you did postgrad work (as several posters here have). You might therefore have been 25 in June 2017. That would put your DOB sometime in the early 1990s - around 1992 at the earliest. So you would have been at best 15 when the crisis hit.

    Of course, you might be a mature student. But you have also repeatedly said you are a ‘young’ person in your mid-twenties.

    You can’t have it both ways. You cannot say you are young and can speak for your demographic, and then that you were wise to highly complex economic events when you would have barely left primary school. That merely makes you look silly.

    You can say you now support greater regulation and with hindsight NewLabour were wrong. That’s no problem. After all, those of us around at the time mostly missed the key weaknesses as well so we can hardly criticise you for using hindsight. I was doing a Masters in politics and economics and I missed most of the warning signs (my very confident prediction was of a London house price crash, which shows what I knew). But don’t try To have it both ways.
    If it makes you feel better my father, who was hugely focused on understanding the London property market at the time (with 40 years experience in the topic) also expected a crash.
    I think everyone who tried to play Nostradamus ended up with egg on their face. In my case I was lucky it didn't matter in any significant way!
    My father still smirks about selling everything with 2% of the market peak in ‘99

    Repeated the trick he did in ‘87

    (He was the third best performing U.K. investment manager from 1970-1999)
    Humblebrag on behalf of Daddy
  • kle4 said:

    Looking good. It'd be nice to think for a moment it will give Beijing pause.

    https://twitter.com/AsiaElects/status/1198697370160156673

    Pro-democrats already have a majority.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,702
    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    That WASPI question to Boris in the leaders' debate could turn out to be the most expensive three minutes of tv ever if Corbyn gets into No 10.

    However Labour's announcement could blow up in their face if voters see it as the cynical opportunism it is.

    They need to win at the Supreme Court first, or are Labour just going to chuck money at them even if there has been no injustice?
    Hasn't Lenin already decided that it is a "historic injustice"?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    nico67 said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    The Tories would be besides themselves if the poor folk driving around in their Range Rovers hit a pot hole !

    Potholes don't discriminate between bangers and Bentleys. And they're a problem for a much larger proportion of the population than just parents with kids aged about 5-12 who have a care gap to fill between the schools closing and getting home from work. So the sums (limited as they are, given that the Tories have clearly decided not to be the sort of party that's going to simply print two-thirds of a trillion pounds to finance a state investment bank) seem not unreasonable.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,922

    RobD said:


    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.

    It's not enough progress, that's the point. We're going to have to a lot more as a country - but also as a world - to stop climate change.
    Given that China is probably constructing enough power plants each week to replace the emissions the UK have already cut, even cutting to zero would have no net benefit for global warming.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    Why? Clearly you've never lived anywhere remote or worked at night.
    I live in a village, so yes I've experienced it. I'm just saying if we are to tackle climate change, we are going to have to phase out petrol and diesel cars. Electric cars are obviously better - but they're still a lot more damaging than public transport.
    How?

    Electric vehicles with electricity from renewable sources - how are they so evil?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,321
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:
    Nicola cannot spell Minister, but uses the word clarity in its political operative context? Who could have written it? Clearly not an uninitiated member of the hoi poloi called Nicola. My money is on a not very bright politician. Diane Abbott?
    She’s using clarity in its normal English sense?
    This is not the 'lingua-franca' of a peasant to a toff. I know this as a fully signed up member of the peasant class.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    RobD said:


    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.

    It's not enough progress, that's the point. We're going to have to a lot more as a country - but also as a world - to stop climate change.
    Fair enough perfectly true. But I’d be impressed if XR glued themselves to a plane in Moscow or disrupted the Beijing underground, otherwise I might have cynical thoughts that we are just seen as a soft target. (Not to imply that I know if you support them or not).
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.

    It's not enough progress, that's the point. We're going to have to a lot more as a country - but also as a world - to stop climate change.
    Given that China is probably constructing enough power plants each week to replace the emissions the UK have already cut, even cutting to zero would have no net benefit for global warming.
    Add in the Indians.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,276
    Andy_JS said:

    Potholes are very dangerous for cyclists as well.

    Yes. Cycling UK like to point out that it was cyclists who did a lot at the end of the 19th century to push government into improving the state of the roads, before cars were widely used.

    It's small beer for an election manifesto though.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:


    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.

    It's not enough progress, that's the point. We're going to have to a lot more as a country - but also as a world - to stop climate change.
    Given that China is probably constructing enough power plants each week to replace the emissions the UK have already cut, even cutting to zero would have no net benefit for global warming.
    But researching improved technology that we and China can use would make a difference.

    This is where loony Greenpeace types are wrong. They may be prepared to send us back to the stoneage but nobody else is.

    Technological progress is the solution.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321

    Andy_JS said:

    Potholes are very dangerous for cyclists as well.

    Yes. Cycling UK like to point out that it was cyclists who did a lot at the end of the 19th century to push government into improving the state of the roads, before cars were widely used.

    It's small beer for an election manifesto though.
    Small beer is better than Kool Aid.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    And rely on the State anytime we want to travel. Marvellous.
    Plus the state knowing exactly where you are going all the time. Spooky!
    Point of order - based on my trains into London, knowing I’ve caught one tells you very little little about either where I am or where I am going.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
  • RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    Why? Clearly you've never lived anywhere remote or worked at night.
    I live in a village, so yes I've experienced it. I'm just saying if we are to tackle climate change, we are going to have to phase out petrol and diesel cars. Electric cars are obviously better - but they're still a lot more damaging than public transport.
    Have you seen the shit coming out of the back of a London bus?
    We obviously need to transition those to electric power or hydrogen as well - and that is happening, albeit at too slow a rate. But they're a lot less environmentally damaging than driving petrol/diesel cars everywhere.
    That's impossible for people who don't live in towns and cities. Cars are the only option most of the time.
    Then we need to make strides to fix that, otherwise we're going to be really fucked in just a few short years.
    Have you seen how far CO2 emissions have been cut so far? We're not the problem.
    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.
    Quite the contrary, there's been a tremendous amount of progress.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Yes, I think people who want a lot more progress sometimes overdo it by implying there's been virtually nothing to date.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    It’s better than that. For most of July, August and September we were coal free. Wind and solar accounted much of the time for 50% of our power. That really is progress. Admittedly a large chunk was gas as well.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,702

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    And rely on the State anytime we want to travel. Marvellous.
    Plus the state knowing exactly where you are going all the time. Spooky!
    Point of order - based on my trains into London, knowing I’ve caught one tells you very little little about either where I am or where I am going.
    Are you sure your Trainline app doesn't tell Google?
  • geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    And rely on the State anytime we want to travel. Marvellous.
    Plus the state knowing exactly where you are going all the time. Spooky!
    Point of order - based on my trains into London, knowing I’ve caught one tells you very little little about either where I am or where I am going.
    Are you sure your Trainline app doesn't tell Google?
    No that only tells you where I should be and where I’m meant to be going.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,702
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    It’s better than that. For most of July, August and September we were coal free. Wind and solar accounted much of the time for 50% of our power. That really is progress. Admittedly a large chunk was gas as well.
    Wind is 100% gas though.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1198708491659161601

    Low risk, will be watching the response.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    welshowl said:

    RobD said:


    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.

    It's not enough progress, that's the point. We're going to have to a lot more as a country - but also as a world - to stop climate change.
    Fair enough perfectly true. But I’d be impressed if XR glued themselves to a plane in Moscow or disrupted the Beijing underground, otherwise I might have cynical thoughts that we are just seen as a soft target. (Not to imply that I know if you support them or not).
    It's not just that these protest groups don't go and protest in illiberal countries - given what would be done to them one can hardly blame them, frankly - it's that they don't even try to protest against them over here. Mucking about already stressed commuters is, apparently, both essential and very funny ha ha. Picketing the Chinese embassy is an entirely different matter.

    One might almost gain the impression that they're only really interested in railing against the evil of the West. Fancy that.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,702

    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    And rely on the State anytime we want to travel. Marvellous.
    Plus the state knowing exactly where you are going all the time. Spooky!
    Point of order - based on my trains into London, knowing I’ve caught one tells you very little little about either where I am or where I am going.
    Are you sure your Trainline app doesn't tell Google?
    No that only tells you where I should be and where I’m meant to be going.
    I'm sure it's being developed. :smile:
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,519
    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    That WASPI question to Boris in the leaders' debate could turn out to be the most expensive three minutes of tv ever if Corbyn gets into No 10.

    However Labour's announcement could blow up in their face if voters see it as the cynical opportunism it is.

    They need to win at the Supreme Court first, or are Labour just going to chuck money at them even if there has been no injustice?
    It's the other way round, surely - if they win at the Suporeme Court, the Government will have to cough up, regardless of which party is in power? Or is Johnson saying he'll ignore the Court?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,742

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    And rely on the State anytime we want to travel. Marvellous.
    Strangely it never occurred to me that some people might have an ideological objection to using public transport. How weird that anyone would think of public transport as being state-owned, in this day and age.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,484

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Not if you are Arthur Scargill.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    399 seats for the Tories!

    New LeanTossup UK Model!! #FBPE #Boris #Corbyn Tories: 399 Labour: 163 LD: 23 SNP: 41 Others: 24 Tory majority of 148
  • RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Ditto. Its funny we never hear about acid rain anymore, nor the hole in the ozone layer.

    I also remember learning in science classes how in Britain large percentages of moths evolved from light to dark to light again because of the pollution that existed in the past and how cleaned up the country is now relative to the past.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    That WASPI question to Boris in the leaders' debate could turn out to be the most expensive three minutes of tv ever if Corbyn gets into No 10.

    However Labour's announcement could blow up in their face if voters see it as the cynical opportunism it is.

    They need to win at the Supreme Court first, or are Labour just going to chuck money at them even if there has been no injustice?
    It's the other way round, surely - if they win at the Suporeme Court, the Government will have to cough up, regardless of which party is in power? Or is Johnson saying he'll ignore the Court?
    That's a peculiar interpretation of what he wrote. Seems like he means there's been no injustice unless the court says there has been, and since at present they are not saying that is the money to be committed regardless?

    Because it is described as an injustice, and that's why the action is needed. If it's a policy disagreement that's one thing, but an injustice being done to them requires more than them not liking it.
  • RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Very good post. And the hole in the ozone layer will be completely repaired by 2080 too.

    It's not all bad news on the environment.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    That WASPI question to Boris in the leaders' debate could turn out to be the most expensive three minutes of tv ever if Corbyn gets into No 10.

    However Labour's announcement could blow up in their face if voters see it as the cynical opportunism it is.

    They need to win at the Supreme Court first, or are Labour just going to chuck money at them even if there has been no injustice?
    It's the other way round, surely - if they win at the Suporeme Court, the Government will have to cough up, regardless of which party is in power? Or is Johnson saying he'll ignore the Court?
    So the Labour bribe will be a) overruling the decision of the Supreme Court if it dismisses the case or b) a mute point as any government would have to do it regardless of being promised during an election.

    Hmmmmm.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,484

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.

    It's not enough progress, that's the point. We're going to have to a lot more as a country - but also as a world - to stop climate change.
    Given that China is probably constructing enough power plants each week to replace the emissions the UK have already cut, even cutting to zero would have no net benefit for global warming.
    Add in the Indians.
    And countries like Vietnam, buidling power plants that use Indonesian coal - and that coal has to get there using rather horrible polluting bunker fuel.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Ditto. Its funny we never hear about acid rain anymore, nor the hole in the ozone layer.

    I also remember learning in science classes how in Britain large percentages of moths evolved from light to dark to light again because of the pollution that existed in the past and how cleaned up the country is now relative to the past.
    I think in some ways those classes worked a bit too well, as it makes things now seem less serious than they usually are, since the rate i was told the rainforests were being felled I'm surprised there as much left of it as there is.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,933
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    It’s better than that. For most of July, August and September we were coal free. Wind and solar accounted much of the time for 50% of our power. That really is progress. Admittedly a large chunk was gas as well.
    True, but even replacing coal with CCGT power stations makes a significant difference - and is a necessary interim step, looking at worldwide generating capacity.
  • ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking good. It'd be nice to think for a moment it will give Beijing pause.

    https://twitter.com/AsiaElects/status/1198697370160156673

    Rather the opposite, must be the fear.
    Yes. And Xi is noted for his paranoia and ruthlessness, as the Uighers are currently finding out in highly brutal fashion.
    He's a complete bastard.

    We should have as little to do with him as possible.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,321
    geoffw said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    It’s better than that. For most of July, August and September we were coal free. Wind and solar accounted much of the time for 50% of our power. That really is progress. Admittedly a large chunk was gas as well.
    Wind is 100% gas though.
    We’re not talking about politics, for once.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Chris said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    And rely on the State anytime we want to travel. Marvellous.
    Strangely it never occurred to me that some people might have an ideological objection to using public transport. How weird that anyone would think of public transport as being state-owned, in this day and age.
    Not at present, of course not. But if it were the sole means of travel? Hmm. It was dead easy to leave East Germany on public transport I’m sure, or just hop on a plane and leave Cuba if you didn’t fancy living in Castro’s paradise.

    Hence “state internet connection”, even if I’m bribed with my own money that it’s “free” fills me with deep suspicion too.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,702

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Very good post. And the hole in the ozone layer will be completely repaired by 2080 too.

    It's not all bad news on the environment.
    No news is good news on the environment.
  • geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    And rely on the State anytime we want to travel. Marvellous.
    Plus the state knowing exactly where you are going all the time. Spooky!
    Point of order - based on my trains into London, knowing I’ve caught one tells you very little little about either where I am or where I am going.
    Are you sure your Trainline app doesn't tell Google?
    No that only tells you where I should be and where I’m meant to be going.
    "I'll tell you a riddle. You're waiting for a train, a train that will take you far away. You know where you hope this train will take you, but you don't know for sure. But it doesn't matter. How can it not matter to you where the train will take you?"
  • ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    It’s better than that. For most of July, August and September we were coal free. Wind and solar accounted much of the time for 50% of our power. That really is progress. Admittedly a large chunk was gas as well.
    The way we are progressing there's little reason continuing that by the end of the last decade 100% of electricity outside of surges or wind issues can't be renewable. And all new cars sold by then could be renewable too.
  • RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Barking.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    geoffw said:

    That WASPI question to Boris in the leaders' debate could turn out to be the most expensive three minutes of tv ever if Corbyn gets into No 10.

    However Labour's announcement could blow up in their face if voters see it as the cynical opportunism it is.

    It is cynical opportunism but the recipients won’t care . If Cummings and co did this though Tories would be supporting it , they’ve written the book on cynicism .

    Of course it could blow up in Labours face but they need to close the gap with that age group and it depends how the message is received more widely .

    If women feel Labour are on their side then it’s not just those effected but it could impact others with how they view the party .

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,321
    nunu2 said:

    399 seats for the Tories!

    New LeanTossup UK Model!! #FBPE #Boris #Corbyn Tories: 399 Labour: 163 LD: 23 SNP: 41 Others: 24 Tory majority of 148

    Looks about right.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,280
    edited November 2019
    @CorrectHorseBattery - apologies if done but I wondered about your alias.

    What3Words has you down (well, Horses, anyway) as a bit of wilderness near the Newfoundland / Quebec border:

    https://w3w.co/correct.horses.battery

    This 3 word address refers to an exact 3m x 3m location. Tap the link or enter the 3 words into the free what3words app to find it. (EDIT: W3W pastes this blurb with the link)

    There is also a Correct.Horses.Batteries NW of Edmonton.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,702

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.

    It's not enough progress, that's the point. We're going to have to a lot more as a country - but also as a world - to stop climate change.
    Given that China is probably constructing enough power plants each week to replace the emissions the UK have already cut, even cutting to zero would have no net benefit for global warming.
    Add in the Indians.
    And countries like Vietnam, buidling power plants that use Indonesian coal - and that coal has to get there using rather horrible polluting bunker fuel.
    Germany still uses lignite.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    Interesting view - why no private transport whatever, even if it was green? Are we going to have massively subsidised bus routes for the three people who live in Dunny-on-the-Wold, for example? :D
    You’ll be relocated to Skelmersdale.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,484
    edited November 2019

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Ditto. Its funny we never hear about acid rain anymore, nor the hole in the ozone layer.

    I also remember learning in science classes how in Britain large percentages of moths evolved from light to dark to light again because of the pollution that existed in the past and how cleaned up the country is now relative to the past.
    Not so much they learnt, just that in some species such as Peppered Moth, the black form carbonaria was far less obvious to predating birds against sooty walls. The genes were still there and once we cleaned up the buildings, the black and white forms could again find better camouflaged places to rest. The carbonaria form is now again quite scarce (I've had a couple in the garden over the past six years).

    EDIT image here:

    https://ukmoths.org.uk/species/biston-betularia/ab-carbonaria/
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    The mad Labour announcements on free broadband and £58 billion for for WASPI women is a clear core vote strategy.

    Not a serious agenda for government. It will turn most swing voters off.
  • nunu2 said:

    399 seats for the Tories!

    New LeanTossup UK Model!! #FBPE #Boris #Corbyn Tories: 399 Labour: 163 LD: 23 SNP: 41 Others: 24 Tory majority of 148

    Naught but Tory Propaganda :lol:
  • Pro_Rata said:

    @CorrectHorseBattery - apologies if done but I wondered about your alias.

    What3Words has you down (well, Horses, anyway) as a bit of wilderness near the Newfoundland / Quebec border:

    https://w3w.co/correct.horses.battery

    This 3 word address refers to an exact 3m x 3m location. Tap the link or enter the 3 words into the free what3words app to find it. (EDIT: W3W pastes this blurb with the link)

    There is also a Correct.Horses.Batteries NW of Edmonton.

    This may help: https://xkcd.com/936/
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    nunu2 said:

    399 seats for the Tories!

    New LeanTossup UK Model!! #FBPE #Boris #Corbyn Tories: 399 Labour: 163 LD: 23 SNP: 41 Others: 24 Tory majority of 148

    Looks about right.
    More chance of Watford staying up. Especially if there is another CORBYNISTA swing!

  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    Looking good. It'd be nice to think for a moment it will give Beijing pause.

    https://twitter.com/AsiaElects/status/1198697370160156673

    On these figures, they already have a majority at barely the halfway stage of the count.
    This isn’t for LegCo though is it? There, appointees and status-quo defenders have an inbuilt majority. Indicative of strength of feeling though.

    How long until the PLA does the equivalent of the Boston Massacre?*

    *Yes, I know it wasn’t a massacre but it was a shot which rang around the world.
  • Just finished season three of The Crown.

    Rather slow and nothing like as good as the first two.

    Wilson and Heath are good though. The episodes slow and tedious, except Aberfan.
  • camelcamel Posts: 815

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Ditto. Its funny we never hear about acid rain anymore, nor the hole in the ozone layer.

    I also remember learning in science classes how in Britain large percentages of moths evolved from light to dark to light again because of the pollution that existed in the past and how cleaned up the country is now relative to the past.
    Not so much they learnt, just that in some species such as Peppered Moth, the black form carbonaria was far less obvious to predating birds against sooty walls. The genes were still there and once we cleaned up the buildings, the black and white forms could again find better camouflaged places to rest. The carbonaria form is now again quite scarce (I've had a couple in the garden over the past six years).
    More upsetting for keen horticulturalists, the reduction of sulphur compounds in the atmosphere is greatly increasing the incidence of fungal infections such as rose black spot.

    Nothing for allotment holders in the tory manifesto. Toffs one and all.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited November 2019
    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    That WASPI question to Boris in the leaders' debate could turn out to be the most expensive three minutes of tv ever if Corbyn gets into No 10.

    However Labour's announcement could blow up in their face if voters see it as the cynical opportunism it is.

    They need to win at the Supreme Court first, or are Labour just going to chuck money at them even if there has been no injustice?
    They have taken the view that they will pay as if the government had lost in court. Notwithstanding that they won and right to appeal was denied. My private pension will be appropriated to pay for this shit.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,846
    nico67 said:

    I can understand why the Tories wanted a safe manifesto but this is incredibly thin and the social care policy is pathetic .

    They seem to have gone from one extreme to another after the May fiasco . And they’ve given Labour quite a few opportunities to attack them on a range of issues .

    It seems to me that the Tories are putting everything on get Brexit done and that’s it.

    May actually worried about her legacy. Bozo just wants the job title.
  • geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.

    It's not enough progress, that's the point. We're going to have to a lot more as a country - but also as a world - to stop climate change.
    Given that China is probably constructing enough power plants each week to replace the emissions the UK have already cut, even cutting to zero would have no net benefit for global warming.
    Add in the Indians.
    And countries like Vietnam, buidling power plants that use Indonesian coal - and that coal has to get there using rather horrible polluting bunker fuel.
    Germany still uses lignite.
    What really irritates me about all this is that the same people who make are talking about the most extreme reductions are, in general, the same ones who campaign hard against nuclear power despite its ability to produce vast amounts of low carbon electricity.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,020
    edited November 2019
    Andy_JS said:

    Potholes are very dangerous for cyclists as well.

    Indeed.

    eg Report of an inquest in Sept of a cyclist killed by a car when she swerved round a pothole to avoid going over the handlebars.

    https://road.cc/content/news/266893-cyclist-died-after-pothole-crash-council-says-it-had-no-record-defect-despite
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,842
    Evening all :)

    Back to betting rather than the bear-pit for a moment.

    I'm still sitting on my BUY of Conservative seats at 325 - should I cash out now and take a reasonable profit or should I stick it out? I think 360-380 is the range and I'd prefer more than 380 for obvious reasons - might happen but less certain than I was.

    Looking at the election battles in East London, I can back Labour to win East Ham at 1/100 with Paddy and Betfair, not a bad bet and if you have £100k lying around and you want to have £101k on 13/12 it's as much a certainty as anything in this life.

    The three seats which interest me in my neck of the woods are as follows:

    Dagenham & Rainham: - Jon Cruddas is defending a majority of 4,652 and the Conservatives need a 5% swing which is right on the mark of the polls. The Tories are marginally favourites and you can bet 9/10 with Bet365 while Labour are Evens with Sky Bet which looks tempting. Many firms have both parties odds on suggesting this is going to be very close. For now, I'll stay out.

    Ilford South: Mike Gapes held for Labour last time with a majority of 31.647 but he has defected to and is running as a Change UK - TIG candidate. He is on offer at 3s generally with Labour at 1/5. It's my experience MPs have an exaggerated view of their "personal" vote and I can't see Gapes holding this seat - indeed, I think he'll finish third. Labour at 1/5 looks a cracking bet.

    Ilford North: Against the run of play, this was a rare Conservative loss in 2015 when Wes Streeting got home by 589 votes. Despite no UKIP candidate in 2017, Streeting stretched his majority to nearly 10,000. There is a BXP candidate this time and Labour are 1/5 with the Conservatives at 3s.

    I simply can't understand how Labour are 1/5 in both Ilford seats - both prices are absurd. Labour should be 1/20 to hold Ilford South and shouldn't even be favourites to hold North.

    I don't like betting odds on but the 1/5 for Labour to hold South is very tempting while the 3/1 for the Conservatives to take North is also worth a punt.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,484
    camel said:

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Ditto. Its funny we never hear about acid rain anymore, nor the hole in the ozone layer.

    I also remember learning in science classes how in Britain large percentages of moths evolved from light to dark to light again because of the pollution that existed in the past and how cleaned up the country is now relative to the past.
    Not so much they learnt, just that in some species such as Peppered Moth, the black form carbonaria was far less obvious to predating birds against sooty walls. The genes were still there and once we cleaned up the buildings, the black and white forms could again find better camouflaged places to rest. The carbonaria form is now again quite scarce (I've had a couple in the garden over the past six years).
    More upsetting for keen horticulturalists, the reduction of sulphur compounds in the atmosphere is greatly increasing the incidence of fungal infections such as rose black spot.

    Nothing for allotment holders in the tory manifesto. Toffs one and all.
    Black spot has always been and remains a problem in Devon.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,484
    Some good close finishes on Red Zone.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,734
    matt said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    Interesting view - why no private transport whatever, even if it was green? Are we going to have massively subsidised bus routes for the three people who live in Dunny-on-the-Wold, for example? :D
    You’ll be relocated to Skelmersdale.
    The largest town in the North West without a rail station is probably a poor example to choose here :-)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,321
    Ave_it said:

    nunu2 said:

    399 seats for the Tories!

    New LeanTossup UK Model!! #FBPE #Boris #Corbyn Tories: 399 Labour: 163 LD: 23 SNP: 41 Others: 24 Tory majority of 148

    Looks about right.
    More chance of Watford staying up. Especially if there is another CORBYNISTA swing!

    Ave_it a traitor to the cause? Boris and his inch-perfect campaign will knock '83 into a cocked hat! I read it first on PB!

    Anyway I have money on Norwich, Southampton and Villa!
  • geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.

    It's not enough progress, that's the point. We're going to have to a lot more as a country - but also as a world - to stop climate change.
    Given that China is probably constructing enough power plants each week to replace the emissions the UK have already cut, even cutting to zero would have no net benefit for global warming.
    Add in the Indians.
    And countries like Vietnam, buidling power plants that use Indonesian coal - and that coal has to get there using rather horrible polluting bunker fuel.
    Germany still uses lignite.
    What really irritates me about all this is that the same people who make are talking about the most extreme reductions are, in general, the same ones who campaign hard against nuclear power despite its ability to produce vast amounts of low carbon electricity.
    Low carbon, high radiation!
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    welshowl said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    Why? Clearly you've never lived anywhere remote or worked at night.
    I live in a village, so yes I've experienced it. I'm just saying if we are to tackle climate change, we are going to have to phase out petrol and diesel cars. Electric cars are obviously better - but they're still a lot more damaging than public transport.
    How about less kids?
    There isn't a problem this planet faces that wouldn't be eased if humans were smart enough to stop breeding at the rate they are.
  • RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    I'm old enough that I was taught that global warning and global cooling were caused by the earth not having a stable orbit round the sun.. Moves in it warms, moves out it cools. Hence several ice ages each ended by a period of global warming.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,899

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Very good post. And the hole in the ozone layer will be completely repaired by 2080 too.

    It's not all bad news on the environment.
    It's not even all bad with regards to China. China is building a lot of coal power plants, but they are also building loads of solar farms, wind farms, hydroelectric plants, and nuclear power plants. China's use of solar went up 1000 fold in the decade to 2018, and wind by over 20 fold. So the Chinese energy mix is moving to renewables, despite what some people seem to think, and quite rapidly as well. It is the large increase in overall energy generation and consumption that is leading to an increase in fossil fuel use, not some aversion to renewables, or ignorance about climate change.
  • IanB2 said:

    nico67 said:

    I can understand why the Tories wanted a safe manifesto but this is incredibly thin and the social care policy is pathetic .

    They seem to have gone from one extreme to another after the May fiasco . And they’ve given Labour quite a few opportunities to attack them on a range of issues .

    It seems to me that the Tories are putting everything on get Brexit done and that’s it.

    May actually worried about her legacy. Bozo just wants the job title.
    :+1: I totally agree. It explains everything he does.
  • Pro_Rata said:

    @CorrectHorseBattery - apologies if done but I wondered about your alias.

    What3Words has you down (well, Horses, anyway) as a bit of wilderness near the Newfoundland / Quebec border:

    https://w3w.co/correct.horses.battery

    This 3 word address refers to an exact 3m x 3m location. Tap the link or enter the 3 words into the free what3words app to find it. (EDIT: W3W pastes this blurb with the link)

    There is also a Correct.Horses.Batteries NW of Edmonton.

    Its a famous xkcd joke. https://xkcd.com/936/
  • geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.

    It's not enough progress, that's the point. We're going to have to a lot more as a country - but also as a world - to stop climate change.
    Given that China is probably constructing enough power plants each week to replace the emissions the UK have already cut, even cutting to zero would have no net benefit for global warming.
    Add in the Indians.
    And countries like Vietnam, buidling power plants that use Indonesian coal - and that coal has to get there using rather horrible polluting bunker fuel.
    Germany still uses lignite.
    What really irritates me about all this is that the same people who make are talking about the most extreme reductions are, in general, the same ones who campaign hard against nuclear power despite its ability to produce vast amounts of low carbon electricity.
    Low carbon, high radiation!
    Less radiation than coal...
  • stodge said:


    I simply can't understand how Labour are 1/5 in both Ilford seats - both prices are absurd. Labour should be 1/20 to hold Ilford South and shouldn't even be favourites to hold North.

    I don't like betting odds on but the 1/5 for Labour to hold South is very tempting while the 3/1 for the Conservatives to take North is also worth a punt.

    You mean Labour should be favourites in Ilford North?
  • camelcamel Posts: 815
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Back to betting rather than the bear-pit for a moment.

    I'm still sitting on my BUY of Conservative seats at 325 - should I cash out now and take a reasonable profit or should I stick it out? I think 360-380 is the range and I'd prefer more than 380 for obvious reasons - might happen but less certain than I was.

    Looking at the election battles in East London, I can back Labour to win East Ham at 1/100 with Paddy and Betfair, not a bad bet and if you have £100k lying around and you want to have £101k on 13/12 it's as much a certainty as anything in this life.

    The three seats which interest me in my neck of the woods are as follows:

    Dagenham & Rainham: - Jon Cruddas is defending a majority of 4,652 and the Conservatives need a 5% swing which is right on the mark of the polls. The Tories are marginally favourites and you can bet 9/10 with Bet365 while Labour are Evens with Sky Bet which looks tempting. Many firms have both parties odds on suggesting this is going to be very close. For now, I'll stay out.

    Ilford South: Mike Gapes held for Labour last time with a majority of 31.647 but he has defected to and is running as a Change UK - TIG candidate. He is on offer at 3s generally with Labour at 1/5. It's my experience MPs have an exaggerated view of their "personal" vote and I can't see Gapes holding this seat - indeed, I think he'll finish third. Labour at 1/5 looks a cracking bet.

    Ilford North: Against the run of play, this was a rare Conservative loss in 2015 when Wes Streeting got home by 589 votes. Despite no UKIP candidate in 2017, Streeting stretched his majority to nearly 10,000. There is a BXP candidate this time and Labour are 1/5 with the Conservatives at 3s.

    I simply can't understand how Labour are 1/5 in both Ilford seats - both prices are absurd. Labour should be 1/20 to hold Ilford South and shouldn't even be favourites to hold North.

    I don't like betting odds on but the 1/5 for Labour to hold South is very tempting while the 3/1 for the Conservatives to take North is also worth a punt.

    Followed you for a little on Ilford North - value tip. Ta.
  • IanB2 said:

    nico67 said:

    I can understand why the Tories wanted a safe manifesto but this is incredibly thin and the social care policy is pathetic .

    They seem to have gone from one extreme to another after the May fiasco . And they’ve given Labour quite a few opportunities to attack them on a range of issues .

    It seems to me that the Tories are putting everything on get Brexit done and that’s it.

    May actually worried about her legacy. Bozo just wants the job title.
    Her legacy is being a dismal failure. Less said about her legacy the better.
  • No need to worry about saving the planet. According to James Lovelock's Gaia hypothesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis) the planet will take steps to save itself by reducing the human population to a sustainable level. Opening up yawning potholes to kill cyclists could be a modest start.
  • RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Ditto. Its funny we never hear about acid rain anymore, nor the hole in the ozone layer.

    I also remember learning in science classes how in Britain large percentages of moths evolved from light to dark to light again because of the pollution that existed in the past and how cleaned up the country is now relative to the past.
    Not so much they learnt, just that in some species such as Peppered Moth, the black form carbonaria was far less obvious to predating birds against sooty walls. The genes were still there and once we cleaned up the buildings, the black and white forms could again find better camouflaged places to rest. The carbonaria form is now again quite scarce (I've had a couple in the garden over the past six years).

    EDIT image here:

    https://ukmoths.org.uk/species/biston-betularia/ab-carbonaria/
    Indeed that's what I meant :)
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    OllyT said:

    welshowl said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    Why? Clearly you've never lived anywhere remote or worked at night.
    I live in a village, so yes I've experienced it. I'm just saying if we are to tackle climate change, we are going to have to phase out petrol and diesel cars. Electric cars are obviously better - but they're still a lot more damaging than public transport.
    How about less kids?
    There isn't a problem this planet faces that wouldn't be eased if humans were smart enough to stop breeding at the rate they are.
    Kind of my point, though there’s all kinds of issues that one child policies create ( as China knows). I think ( please correct me folks ) the founder of XR has three kids?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    welshowl said:

    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    What amounts should it be, what should the ratio be? There are a lot of potholes and roads and their maintenance are expensive. I don't see how the relative amounts without explanation or context reveal anything here, I have nothing to judge on whether making it, for instance, 2bn on childcare would be sufficient, or too much, or not enough.
    Your neutrality blinds you. :D:p
    welshowl said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    Why? Clearly you've never lived anywhere remote or worked at night.
    I live in a village, so yes I've experienced it. I'm just saying if we are to tackle climate change, we are going to have to phase out petrol and diesel cars. Electric cars are obviously better - but they're still a lot more damaging than public transport.
    How about less kids?
    Or fewer even.
    Lol. Touché.

    Let’s compromise kids with better grammar?
    You are missing a colon from that sentence.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,020
    edited November 2019
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    It’s better than that. For most of July, August and September we were coal free. Wind and solar accounted much of the time for 50% of our power. That really is progress. Admittedly a large chunk was gas as well.
    True, but even replacing coal with CCGT power stations makes a significant difference - and is a necessary interim step, looking at worldwide generating capacity.
    The last time I looked our power supply has been decarbonised by about 75%, and the only sectors not making very major progress were buildings and transport. Though arguably renewable power and electric cars will fix much of transport within 20 years or so.

    Personally I think that ER need to be stamped on very heavily indeed; demonstrators willing to prevent patients getting to hospital, and defend their actions, are self-obsessed beneath contempt nutters .
  • glw said:

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Very good post. And the hole in the ozone layer will be completely repaired by 2080 too.

    It's not all bad news on the environment.
    It's not even all bad with regards to China. China is building a lot of coal power plants, but they are also building loads of solar farms, wind farms, hydroelectric plants, and nuclear power plants. China's use of solar went up 1000 fold in the decade to 2018, and wind by over 20 fold. So the Chinese energy mix is moving to renewables, despite what some people seem to think, and quite rapidly as well. It is the large increase in overall energy generation and consumption that is leading to an increase in fossil fuel use, not some aversion to renewables, or ignorance about climate change.
    Interesting, thanks.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,280
    edited November 2019

    Pro_Rata said:

    @CorrectHorseBattery - apologies if done but I wondered about your alias.

    What3Words has you down (well, Horses, anyway) as a bit of wilderness near the Newfoundland / Quebec border:

    https://w3w.co/correct.horses.battery

    This 3 word address refers to an exact 3m x 3m location. Tap the link or enter the 3 words into the free what3words app to find it. (EDIT: W3W pastes this blurb with the link)

    There is also a Correct.Horses.Batteries NW of Edmonton.

    This may help: https://xkcd.com/936/
    :) Thanks, and Philip as well.

    One suspects the xkcd cartoon was known to the W3W guys.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Charles said:

    welshowl said:

    geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    What amounts should it be, what should the ratio be? There are a lot of potholes and roads and their maintenance are expensive. I don't see how the relative amounts without explanation or context reveal anything here, I have nothing to judge on whether making it, for instance, 2bn on childcare would be sufficient, or too much, or not enough.
    Your neutrality blinds you. :D:p
    welshowl said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    Why? Clearly you've never lived anywhere remote or worked at night.
    I live in a village, so yes I've experienced it. I'm just saying if we are to tackle climate change, we are going to have to phase out petrol and diesel cars. Electric cars are obviously better - but they're still a lot more damaging than public transport.
    How about less kids?
    Or fewer even.
    Lol. Touché.

    Let’s compromise kids with better grammar?
    You are missing a colon from that sentence.
    It’s been a tough week ......
  • geoffw said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:


    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.

    It's not enough progress, that's the point. We're going to have to a lot more as a country - but also as a world - to stop climate change.
    Given that China is probably constructing enough power plants each week to replace the emissions the UK have already cut, even cutting to zero would have no net benefit for global warming.
    Add in the Indians.
    And countries like Vietnam, buidling power plants that use Indonesian coal - and that coal has to get there using rather horrible polluting bunker fuel.
    Germany still uses lignite.
    What really irritates me about all this is that the same people who make are talking about the most extreme reductions are, in general, the same ones who campaign hard against nuclear power despite its ability to produce vast amounts of low carbon electricity.
    Low carbon, high radiation!
    Less radiation than coal...
    You need to put nuclear waste somewhere...
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Ave_it said:

    nunu2 said:

    399 seats for the Tories!

    New LeanTossup UK Model!! #FBPE #Boris #Corbyn Tories: 399 Labour: 163 LD: 23 SNP: 41 Others: 24 Tory majority of 148

    Looks about right.
    More chance of Watford staying up. Especially if there is another CORBYNISTA swing!

    Ave_it a traitor to the cause? Boris and his inch-perfect campaign will knock '83 into a cocked hat! I read it first on PB!

    Anyway I have money on Norwich, Southampton and Villa!
    I fancied that outcome too (the football that is) before Saturday!

    But IF we beat Southampton on Sat then the dream is back!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,321
    welshowl said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    Why? Clearly you've never lived anywhere remote or worked at night.
    I live in a village, so yes I've experienced it. I'm just saying if we are to tackle climate change, we are going to have to phase out petrol and diesel cars. Electric cars are obviously better - but they're still a lot more damaging than public transport.
    How about less kids?
    Was that remark directed at Boris?
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Anyone voting LD this time? :lol:
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    And rely on the State anytime we want to travel. Marvellous.
    Plus the state knowing exactly where you are going all the time. Spooky!
    Point of order - based on my trains into London, knowing I’ve caught one tells you very little little about either where I am or where I am going.
    There’s a channel 5 programme on the moment following TFL staff as they track down fare dodgers. The amount of information they have is eye-opening
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    welshowl said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    Why? Clearly you've never lived anywhere remote or worked at night.
    I live in a village, so yes I've experienced it. I'm just saying if we are to tackle climate change, we are going to have to phase out petrol and diesel cars. Electric cars are obviously better - but they're still a lot more damaging than public transport.
    How about less kids?
    Was that remark directed at Boris?
    Not directly!
  • IanB2 said:

    nico67 said:

    I can understand why the Tories wanted a safe manifesto but this is incredibly thin and the social care policy is pathetic .

    They seem to have gone from one extreme to another after the May fiasco . And they’ve given Labour quite a few opportunities to attack them on a range of issues .

    It seems to me that the Tories are putting everything on get Brexit done and that’s it.

    May actually worried about her legacy. Bozo just wants the job title.
    Her legacy is being a dismal failure. Less said about her legacy the better.
    Exactly. The lesson of 2017 is that we need to WIN first, otherwise all our plans vanish into nothingness.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,321
    Ave_it said:

    Ave_it said:

    nunu2 said:

    399 seats for the Tories!

    New LeanTossup UK Model!! #FBPE #Boris #Corbyn Tories: 399 Labour: 163 LD: 23 SNP: 41 Others: 24 Tory majority of 148

    Looks about right.
    More chance of Watford staying up. Especially if there is another CORBYNISTA swing!

    Ave_it a traitor to the cause? Boris and his inch-perfect campaign will knock '83 into a cocked hat! I read it first on PB!

    Anyway I have money on Norwich, Southampton and Villa!
    I fancied that outcome too (the football that is) before Saturday!

    But IF we beat Southampton on Sat then the dream is back!
    Good luck!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,243
    New Electoral Calculus projection takes Con up to a majority of 80

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html
  • Just finished season three of The Crown.

    Rather slow and nothing like as good as the first two.

    Wilson and Heath are good though. The episodes slow and tedious, except Aberfan.

    The trouble is probably that as we come up to date, the writers lose historical perspective and start including all sorts of trivial incidents that they happen to remember. We have seen this with other series too.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    I wonder whether Damian Lyons Lowe from Survation are doing some polling including a question on the Waspi women . Going by his tweet he thinks this is likely to hurt the Tories.

  • Chris said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    £2Bn for potholes

    £1Bn for childcare

    ...

    I know, they seem small in comparison to Labour's trillion pound bill, but it's still a lot of money.
    Do you honestly think potholes deserve more money than childcare though?
    As a childless singleton that doesn't drive I don't care about either. But anybody claiming to be green should oppose both subsiding care pollution and over population.
    I personally think we should be encouraging the use of public transport as much as possible and phasing out cars entirely - that should be the ultimate goal IMHO
    Not a fan of electric cars?
    They're better than petrol and diesel cars - and if there is no reasonable public transport they seem like a good compromise. But fundamentally we need to transition away from private transport.
    And rely on the State anytime we want to travel. Marvellous.
    Strangely it never occurred to me that some people might have an ideological objection to using public transport. How weird that anyone would think of public transport as being state-owned, in this day and age.
    Until recently it never occurred to me that anyone might have an ideological objection to broadband being owned by the private sector, but one of our major parties sure as hell does!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Very good post. And the hole in the ozone layer will be completely repaired by 2080 too.

    It's not all bad news on the environment.
    And work continues. For example HFA is being switched across to a different form of HFA which is 80% less damaging.

    And HFA is already massively less bad than CFC
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,842
    Ave_it said:

    Anyone voting LD this time? :lol:

    Yes, me. Anyone voting Conservative?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    The UK has to do a lot more - as does every other country. You're right it's a global problem.

    But just trumpeting "we're not the problem" is why there's been so little progress.

    So little progress? Again, look how far emissions have been cut since the peak in the 1970s.
    That is a fair point. I'm old enough to remember learning about acid rain in school geography lessons circa 1990. British coal-fired power stations used to chuck out so much carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide that they created toxic clouds that, basically, dissolved trees in Norway.

    Earlier this year, Britain had the first recorded days since the advent of widespread electrical power in which 0% of the electricity in the National Grid came from burning coal. If that's not progress I'm not sure what is.
    Very good post. And the hole in the ozone layer will be completely repaired by 2080 too.

    It's not all bad news on the environment.
    And work continues. For example HFA is being switched across to a different form of HFA which is 80% less damaging.

    And HFA is already massively less bad than CFC
    Good news but none of this would have happened if scientists and campaigners hadn't made a fuss in the first place.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,243
    nico67 said:

    I wonder whether Damian Lyons Lowe from Survation are doing some polling including a question on the Waspi women . Going by his tweet he thinks this is likely to hurt the Tories.

    Thing is Labour can have all sorts of popular individual policies... The problem is that no one actually believes they can deliver them.
  • nico67 said:

    I wonder whether Damian Lyons Lowe from Survation are doing some polling including a question on the Waspi women . Going by his tweet he thinks this is likely to hurt the Tories.

    Will the question include the information that it will cost the public an extra £58 billion in uncosted borrowing and / or taxes? Because that seems like a relevant piece of context, no?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,644
    BluerBlue said:

    nico67 said:

    I wonder whether Damian Lyons Lowe from Survation are doing some polling including a question on the Waspi women . Going by his tweet he thinks this is likely to hurt the Tories.

    Will the question include the information that it will cost the public an extra £58 billion in uncosted borrowing and / or taxes? Because that seems like a relevant piece of context, no?
    Are there some workings behind the £58bn?
This discussion has been closed.