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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The spreads move even more sharply to the Tories

SystemSystem Posts: 12,170
edited November 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The spreads move even more sharply to the Tories

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  • It's farage wot won it
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Re comments in the last thread that it is nonsensical to argue both that an LD/Plaid/Green alliance is good for the LDs whereas TBP not standing in Con seats is bad for the Tories, I can see how that could be true - if the toxicity of TBP is much greater than that of the LDs' allies.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,149
    edited November 2019
    The main impact of the Farage news is it will save some Tory marginals the LDs or SNP might have taken on current polls
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    I assume Farage announcement meants that BXT will not compete Totnes.

    MarqueeMark will be pleased.
  • The only thing stranger than this GE so far is that Death Stranding video game.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,837
    I think the problem for Boris is that he can only keep hold of theCon-LD switchers if his majority looks in doubt. If he's looking comfortable, it's harderto play on the fear of Cirbyn as PM. Thus, perhaps the next moveis a swing back to Lab and LD. Before a swing back again. The result of the election will depend upin where in this oscillation we end up!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    edited November 2019
    HYUFD said: "The main impact of the Farage news is it will save some Tory marginals the LDs or SNP might have taken on current polls"

    Yes, I agree - I`ve just sold LibDem seats on Betfair over under at 25.5 @ 4.3 and also backed LibDem vote % at 10 - 14.99% at 4.1
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,123
    edited November 2019
    Looks at watch....surely it must be that time of day where another PPC has been found to be an antisemite or islamophobe or just have record of offensive jokes, resulting in them being made to.walk the plank.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    So It's the TORY & UKIP Party!

    Whoever said we'd become a leper colony somewhere in the North Atlantic wasn't joking.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Shame BXP will still be contesting Kensington.

    I dearly want Gyimah to fail.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Stocky said:

    I assume Farage announcement meants that BXT will not compete Totnes.

    MarqueeMark will be pleased.

    Yep!

    But I really couldn't ever see them standing if it in any way gave Dr. Sarah Wollaston an improved chance of staying an MP. Her actions really have fired up Brexiteers. Along with Grieve and Soubry, she really fires up the gammon blood pressure. And although Totnes itself might be Wollaston-vegan, there's a lot of Tory gammon in the rest of the constituency.....)
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Stocky said:

    Shame BXP will still be contesting Kensington.

    I dearly want Gyimah to fail.

    I think he will anyway, hard to see it affecting the Tory vote too much.

    I've missed about 24 hours of news due to football and work. Seems things have moved at quite a pace!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    Currently in Labour Party HQ :D


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa7nSzCiGXk
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,837
    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said: "The main impact of the Farage news is it will save some Tory marginals the LDs or SNP might have taken on current polls"

    Yes, I agree - I`ve just sold LibDem seats on Betfair over under at 25.5 @ 4.3 and also backed LibDem vote % at 10 - 14.99% at 4.1

    Surely this move doesn't affect LD vote percentage?
  • FPT
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Its Remainers that want to keep us in the company of parties like Vox. Tories are trying to get us away from them.

    It’s people like you who want us to be more closely aligned with the joys of the US Republican Party
    No I don't. I want us to be an independent country on the global stage not aligned with anybody overseas.

    If I was an American I'd vote Democrat unless they choose someone crazy like Warren or Sanders in which case I'd probably vote Libertarian. I don't like anything to do with the modern GOP - the GOP I could like was the party of Reagan not Trump.
    Yes but we’re too small and weak to compete on the global stage. We are going to be surrounded on all sides by a growing superpower while we decline even further into irrelevance. All we can do is accept scraps of the Yanks table.
    What superpower? We're not surrounded by either USA [the worlds only current superpower] or China [the worlds next superpower].

    We are quite big and agile enough to compete on the global stage.
  • Makes you wonder....has farage only just decided to this. Was he waiting for the remain alliance to announce first...did the tories have any prior knowledge.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    I don't think trying to game the system to your advantage often pays off. I don't know any Tory remainers, but what if their reaction to the Farage announcement is that if the Tories are going to win any thanks to TBP coming to the rescue, why not have a flutter on the Lib Dems to make a risk free point?

    Not saying it will happen, but who knows?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    edited November 2019
    Am I right in thinking the BXP deal only applies to the 317 seats currently held by the Conservatives?

    In theory, BXP could stand in every other seat though it seems some other seats aren't going to be contested.

    Having bought Conservative seats at 325 I'm not too bothered from a punting angle but presumably BXP aren't folding up - they will be looking at the negotiations for the future trade and political arrangements for the EU and seeing if we can crash out to WTO on 31/12/20 rather than 31/10/19. Boris Johnson refuses to discount that possibility of course.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    edited November 2019
    Another sound bet in light of Farage: With BXP non contesting The Cities of London and Westminster (Umunna) 10/11 with Bet365 on Tories is great value.

    Please PBers - any other constituency tips you want to share in light of the news??
  • https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1193883497833943040

    Who can blame them, when Lab hasn't got a frigging clue what its policy is.
  • Roger said:

    So It's the TORY & UKIP Party!

    Whoever said we'd become a leper colony somewhere in the North Atlantic wasn't joking.

    I thought "Blu-kip" was the accepted pejorative term?
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    HYUFD said:

    The main impact of the Farage news is it will save some Tory marginals the LDs or SNP might have taken on current polls

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1193878245919412225
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,123
    edited November 2019

    twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1193873120576311296

    But farage signalling is clear today. If you want brexit and wavering right leaning voter, vote tory. If you could never vote tory, vote BXP not Labour.

    That is a massive change to a few weeks ago where he was giving it that only real brexit is via BXP.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    #LordFarage trending on Twitter! :D
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Cookie said: "Surely this move doesn't affect LD vote percentage?"

    No - good point - but I saw that % range as value anyway. I think LDs will perform worse than many expect in this election.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    And think they will stand down in some of those as well.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Am feeling more confident than before that the Lib Dems aren't going to make major progress in this election. They've very few ultra-marginal targets available, and not that many more that seem likely to fall on outsized swings in deep Remain areas.

    Everything therefore depends now on Labour's ability to get out the vote. Theresa May nearly won in 2017 with about a 2.5% lead; if Labour can't win back enough support to close the gap to something very close to that, then the Tories are home and hosed. It's then just a matter of the size of the majority.

    Personally, I've not changed my mind about this election being a close one, but I think the probability of the Cons just making it over the finishing line has increased.

    Still an awfully long way to go though.
  • Stocky said:

    Another sound bet in light of Farage: With BXT non contesting The Cities of London and Westminster (Umunna) 10/11 with Bet365 on Tories is great value.

    Please PBers - any other constituency tips you want to share in light of the news??

    I wouldn't have thought the two cities were exactly going to be drowning in Faragists.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453

    Makes you wonder....has farage only just decided to this. Was he waiting for the remain alliance to announce first...did the tories have any prior knowledge.

    I think the polls showing BXP down 5-6% forced his hand
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Cookie said:

    Stocky said:

    HYUFD said: "The main impact of the Farage news is it will save some Tory marginals the LDs or SNP might have taken on current polls"

    Yes, I agree - I`ve just sold LibDem seats on Betfair over under at 25.5 @ 4.3 and also backed LibDem vote % at 10 - 14.99% at 4.1

    Surely this move doesn't affect LD vote percentage?
    It effects the tory percentage on the southern shires, I.e it will be higher now than it would have been.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,958
    GIN1138 said:

    Currently in Labour Party HQ :D


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa7nSzCiGXk

    At this point there's more sh*t than fan.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    So this has worked out rather well for Boris, he has stayed firm and Farage has caved in, there is no joint decision or bad optics of the 2 on stage together making this announcement. You sense in many of the Northern battlegrounds if BXP target Labour wards and voters the split at worse between Tories & Labour to BXP will be 50/50 which combined with Lab stay at home voters and Lab/LD switchers could see plenty of seats go blue.

    We've already seen with the Workington poll that the Tories are capable of making gains with or without BXP standing.
  • https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1193883497833943040

    Who can blame them, when Lab hasn't got a frigging clue what its policy is.

    Including emily thornberry....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    Can't help feeling that there has been a bit of an overreaction here but am I brave enough to sell Tory seats at 338? Nope. Selling Lib Dems at 36 looks a better bet (although I full accept that the logic of that is that I probably should be buying Tories at 344).

    I am still struggling to come to terms with how Labour are doing. And I speak as someone who watched the results in Scotland in 2015 in disbelief. Will we see something similar in swathes of England outside the cities? Surely stop the (evil) Tory rallying cry has not lost all resonance?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    FPT

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Its Remainers that want to keep us in the company of parties like Vox. Tories are trying to get us away from them.

    It’s people like you who want us to be more closely aligned with the joys of the US Republican Party
    No I don't. I want us to be an independent country on the global stage not aligned with anybody overseas.

    If I was an American I'd vote Democrat unless they choose someone crazy like Warren or Sanders in which case I'd probably vote Libertarian. I don't like anything to do with the modern GOP - the GOP I could like was the party of Reagan not Trump.
    Yes but we’re too small and weak to compete on the global stage. We are going to be surrounded on all sides by a growing superpower while we decline even further into irrelevance. All we can do is accept scraps of the Yanks table.
    What superpower? We're not surrounded by either USA [the worlds only current superpower] or China [the worlds next superpower].

    We are quite big and agile enough to compete on the global stage.
    We will be surrounded on all sides by the EU which is an incipient superpower. Europe is growing, the U.K. is dying. Harking back to our ties with places like Australia is like an pasty, terminally ill ex-boyfriend looking to get back with the ex he dumped when she has happily moved on to to bronzed Pacific hunks.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    edited November 2019
    Can someone explain where the "Tory gammon" phraseology come from? Heard it a lot over past couple of weeks - but never heard it at all before then.
  • Stocky said:

    Can someone explain where the "Tory gammon" phraseology come from? Heard it a lot over past couple of weeks - but never heard it at all before then.

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gammon
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Stocky said:

    Can someone explain where the "Tory gammon" phraseology come from? Heard it a lot over past couple of weeks - but never heard it at all before then.

    A subset of angry right-wingers are old men with blotchy red and white faces, which get redder when they shout nonsense at Question Time panellists. This gives them a somewhat bacony appearance.
  • Surely any sensible BXP candidate in very tight tory marginal seats they just lost due to May in 2017 will not stand either eg Canterbury, Kensington. If Brexit is the objective , a bit more witnessing of the list is needed.
  • Noo said:

    Stocky said:

    Can someone explain where the "Tory gammon" phraseology come from? Heard it a lot over past couple of weeks - but never heard it at all before then.

    A subset of angry right-wingers are old men with blotchy red and white faces, which get redder when they shout nonsense at Question Time panellists. This gives them a somewhat bacony appearance.
    I would think the most gammony place in the country this afternoon will.be Labour HQ.
  • Stocky said:

    Another sound bet in light of Farage: With BXP non contesting The Cities of London and Westminster (Umunna) 10/11 with Bet365 on Tories is great value.

    Please PBers - any other constituency tips you want to share in light of the news??

    There is four and a half weeks still to go and we haven't had the manifestos yet
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    nunu2 said:

    And think they will stand down in some of those as well.
    Why the hell does he think that the Tories need to win 50 Labour marginals to get a majority? The only reason I can think of is that they would need to lose 40 seats to the LibDems/SNP. That seems way too high.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,716

    Am feeling more confident than before that the Lib Dems aren't going to make major progress in this election. They've very few ultra-marginal targets available, and not that many more that seem likely to fall on outsized swings in deep Remain areas.

    Everything therefore depends now on Labour's ability to get out the vote. Theresa May nearly won in 2017 with about a 2.5% lead; if Labour can't win back enough support to close the gap to something very close to that, then the Tories are home and hosed. It's then just a matter of the size of the majority.

    Personally, I've not changed my mind about this election being a close one, but I think the probability of the Cons just making it over the finishing line has increased.

    Still an awfully long way to go though.

    It's looking like Swinson's Revoke policy was a miscalculation. They were already ahead of Labour on trust when it comes to Brexit and didn't need to differentiate further.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    I was just going to say that we need an @AndyJS to crunch the constituencies.

    The above supports my view but has evidently been arrived at with more than (my) gut feel.
  • DougSeal said:

    FPT

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Its Remainers that want to keep us in the company of parties like Vox. Tories are trying to get us away from them.

    It’s people like you who want us to be more closely aligned with the joys of the US Republican Party
    No I don't. I want us to be an independent country on the global stage not aligned with anybody overseas.

    If I was an American I'd vote Democrat unless they choose someone crazy like Warren or Sanders in which case I'd probably vote Libertarian. I don't like anything to do with the modern GOP - the GOP I could like was the party of Reagan not Trump.
    Yes but we’re too small and weak to compete on the global stage. We are going to be surrounded on all sides by a growing superpower while we decline even further into irrelevance. All we can do is accept scraps of the Yanks table.
    What superpower? We're not surrounded by either USA [the worlds only current superpower] or China [the worlds next superpower].

    We are quite big and agile enough to compete on the global stage.
    We will be surrounded on all sides by the EU which is an incipient superpower. Europe is growing, the U.K. is dying. Harking back to our ties with places like Australia is like an pasty, terminally ill ex-boyfriend looking to get back with the ex he dumped when she has happily moved on to to bronzed Pacific hunks.
    LMAO! You think Europe is a superpower?

    Europe had superpowers until WWII, the idea of Europe as a power died decades ago. Europe is dying, European share of population, power and global GDP is in a complete downward trend.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Noo said:

    Stocky said:

    Can someone explain where the "Tory gammon" phraseology come from? Heard it a lot over past couple of weeks - but never heard it at all before then.

    A subset of angry right-wingers are old men with blotchy red and white faces, which get redder when they shout nonsense at Question Time panellists. This gives them a somewhat bacony appearance.
    I would think the most gammony place in the country this afternoon will.be Labour HQ.
    You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    DavidL said:

    nunu2 said:

    And think they will stand down in some of those as well.
    Why the hell does he think that the Tories need to win 50 Labour marginals to get a majority? The only reason I can think of is that they would need to lose 40 seats to the LibDems/SNP. That seems way too high.
    There's a media narrative that has developed 'how incredibly difficult this all is for the Tories'.
    I think it's to do with the memory of Election 2017 and I explore it in my forthcoming piece.
  • DavidL said:

    nunu2 said:

    And think they will stand down in some of those as well.
    Why the hell does he think that the Tories need to win 50 Labour marginals to get a majority? The only reason I can think of is that they would need to lose 40 seats to the LibDems/SNP. That seems way too high.
    https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1193882506153607174?s=19
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Banterman said:

    Surely any sensible BXP candidate in very tight tory marginal seats they just lost due to May in 2017 will not stand either eg Canterbury, Kensington. If Brexit is the objective , a bit more witnessing of the list is needed.

    It does seem to me that potential Tory voters are quite savvy to the concept a vote for BXP is a vote for Corbyn. I think in Canterbury, Kensington etc they will poll weak numbers (though potentially enough to keep the seats red).

    BXP will be squeezed further in these seats but the problem we have now is if they only stand in 300 seats we can read even less in how they might effect the election from National Polling as many people will say they vote BXP when they don't have that choice.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,716

    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Its Remainers that want to keep us in the company of parties like Vox. Tories are trying to get us away from them.

    It’s people like you who want us to be more closely aligned with the joys of the US Republican Party
    No I don't. I want us to be an independent country on the global stage not aligned with anybody overseas.

    If I was an American I'd vote Democrat unless they choose someone crazy like Warren or Sanders in which case I'd probably vote Libertarian. I don't like anything to do with the modern GOP - the GOP I could like was the party of Reagan not Trump.
    Yes but we’re too small and weak to compete on the global stage. We are going to be surrounded on all sides by a growing superpower while we decline even further into irrelevance. All we can do is accept scraps of the Yanks table.
    What superpower? We're not surrounded by either USA [the worlds only current superpower] or China [the worlds next superpower].

    We are quite big and agile enough to compete on the global stage.
    We will be surrounded on all sides by the EU which is an incipient superpower. Europe is growing, the U.K. is dying. Harking back to our ties with places like Australia is like an pasty, terminally ill ex-boyfriend looking to get back with the ex he dumped when she has happily moved on to to bronzed Pacific hunks.
    LMAO! You think Europe is a superpower?

    Europe had superpowers until WWII, the idea of Europe as a power died decades ago. Europe is dying, European share of population, power and global GDP is in a complete downward trend.
    You sound like the kind of person who would have written off China 30 years ago. Europe is only now beginning to recover from the geopolitical damage of the world wars.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    DavidL said:

    Can't help feeling that there has been a bit of an overreaction here but am I brave enough to sell Tory seats at 338? Nope. Selling Lib Dems at 36 looks a better bet (although I full accept that the logic of that is that I probably should be buying Tories at 344).

    I am still struggling to come to terms with how Labour are doing. And I speak as someone who watched the results in Scotland in 2015 in disbelief. Will we see something similar in swathes of England outside the cities? Surely stop the (evil) Tory rallying cry has not lost all resonance?

    English Labour won't roll over and die, sadly. And they don't have very many seats left to lose outside the metropolitan counties anyway.

    I think the Tories can win the election with 20-30 gains from Labour. But I'm not at all sure they've that many gains in them.

    My hunch is that the Lib Dem vote will be flakier than many believe, but the Labour vote will be much stickier.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,231

    Am feeling more confident than before that the Lib Dems aren't going to make major progress in this election. They've very few ultra-marginal targets available, and not that many more that seem likely to fall on outsized swings in deep Remain areas.

    Everything therefore depends now on Labour's ability to get out the vote. Theresa May nearly won in 2017 with about a 2.5% lead; if Labour can't win back enough support to close the gap to something very close to that, then the Tories are home and hosed. It's then just a matter of the size of the majority.

    Personally, I've not changed my mind about this election being a close one, but I think the probability of the Cons just making it over the finishing line has increased.

    Still an awfully long way to go though.

    Interestingly, I'm beginning to shift the other way. I'm thinking my initial forecast of 21 seats (+9) is a bit skinny, in the context of (a) the libdems holding on at 16% in almost every poll, and (b) them being able to paint the Tories as Farage No Dealers in the South East and London. (I don't think the libdems ever had any chance in the South West, which is where the Brexit Party standing down will have the biggest effect.)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212

    DavidL said:

    nunu2 said:

    And think they will stand down in some of those as well.
    Why the hell does he think that the Tories need to win 50 Labour marginals to get a majority? The only reason I can think of is that they would need to lose 40 seats to the LibDems/SNP. That seems way too high.
    https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1193882506153607174?s=19
    OK This makes sense now Joe Armitage is obviously a Tory ' "we" ' and it helps the narrative to make this seen as a close race to get out supporters too.
    But certain sections of the media are definitely indulging in this too.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Its Remainers that want to keep us in the company of parties like Vox. Tories are trying to get us away from them.

    It’s people like you who want us to be more closely aligned with the joys of the US Republican Party
    No I don't. I want us to be an independent country on the global stage not aligned with anybody overseas.

    If I was an American I'd vote Democrat unless they choose someone crazy like Warren or Sanders in which case I'd probably vote Libertarian. I don't like anything to do with the modern GOP - the GOP I could like was the party of Reagan not Trump.
    Yes but we’re too small and weak to compete on the global stage. We are going to be surrounded on all sides by a growing superpower while we decline even further into irrelevance. All we can do is accept scraps of the Yanks table.
    What superpower? We're not surrounded by either USA [the worlds only current superpower] or China [the worlds next superpower].

    We are quite big and agile enough to compete on the global stage.
    We will be surrounded on all sides by the EU which is an incipient superpower. Europe is growing, the U.K. is dying. Harking back to our ties with places like Australia is like an pasty, terminally ill ex-boyfriend looking to get back with the ex he dumped when she has happily moved on to to bronzed Pacific hunks.
    LMAO! You think Europe is a superpower?

    Europe had superpowers until WWII, the idea of Europe as a power died decades ago. Europe is dying, European share of population, power and global GDP is in a complete downward trend.
    It's a sensible proposition, even if you don't agree. There's a useful summary of arguments for and against here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers
  • Am feeling more confident than before that the Lib Dems aren't going to make major progress in this election. They've very few ultra-marginal targets available, and not that many more that seem likely to fall on outsized swings in deep Remain areas.

    Everything therefore depends now on Labour's ability to get out the vote. Theresa May nearly won in 2017 with about a 2.5% lead; if Labour can't win back enough support to close the gap to something very close to that, then the Tories are home and hosed. It's then just a matter of the size of the majority.

    Personally, I've not changed my mind about this election being a close one, but I think the probability of the Cons just making it over the finishing line has increased.

    Still an awfully long way to go though.

    It's looking like Swinson's Revoke policy was a miscalculation. They were already ahead of Labour on trust when it comes to Brexit and didn't need to differentiate further.
    Wait till the final week then a CON majority equals certain Brexit.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    nunu2 said:

    And think they will stand down in some of those as well.
    Why the hell does he think that the Tories need to win 50 Labour marginals to get a majority? The only reason I can think of is that they would need to lose 40 seats to the LibDems/SNP. That seems way too high.
    There's a media narrative that has developed 'how incredibly difficult this all is for the Tories'.
    I think it's to do with the memory of Election 2017 and I explore it in my forthcoming piece.
    Its a lot more helpful than the Tory landslide narrative was in 2017, that is for sure. And the fact is that the use of the old boundaries once again is very helpful to Labour in particular. But it is like everyone wanting to rerun the stories of campaign car crashes in the first couple of days. It was nonsense. Even poor Emily will eventually be forgotten (if not by herself in the middle of the night).
  • DavidL said:

    nunu2 said:

    And think they will stand down in some of those as well.
    Why the hell does he think that the Tories need to win 50 Labour marginals to get a majority? The only reason I can think of is that they would need to lose 40 seats to the LibDems/SNP. That seems way too high.
    He says later in the thread that is needed for a healthy working majority and not a single-figures unstable one.

    Not a normal definition.
  • Order (ordure?) is restored, Arron & Nigel up a tree, r-i-m-m-i-n-g.

    https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/1193880701977989120?s=20
  • This has to be a peak time to sell Tory and buy Labour
    Stocky said:

    Can someone explain where the "Tory gammon" phraseology come from? Heard it a lot over past couple of weeks - but never heard it at all before then.

    Ok boomer
  • DavidL said:

    Can't help feeling that there has been a bit of an overreaction here but am I brave enough to sell Tory seats at 338? Nope. Selling Lib Dems at 36 looks a better bet (although I full accept that the logic of that is that I probably should be buying Tories at 344).

    I am still struggling to come to terms with how Labour are doing. And I speak as someone who watched the results in Scotland in 2015 in disbelief. Will we see something similar in swathes of England outside the cities? Surely stop the (evil) Tory rallying cry has not lost all resonance?

    Worth remembering that the 1983 floor for Labour in England and Wales was 168 seats - very close to the Tories tally in 1997. This would not be unprecedented.

    The unprecedented result for Labour, the perfect storm, the 2015-style wipeout, would be the one that sent them below 150 seats. The Liberal Democrats have to do a bit better before that's on the cards.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,716

    Am feeling more confident than before that the Lib Dems aren't going to make major progress in this election. They've very few ultra-marginal targets available, and not that many more that seem likely to fall on outsized swings in deep Remain areas.

    Everything therefore depends now on Labour's ability to get out the vote. Theresa May nearly won in 2017 with about a 2.5% lead; if Labour can't win back enough support to close the gap to something very close to that, then the Tories are home and hosed. It's then just a matter of the size of the majority.

    Personally, I've not changed my mind about this election being a close one, but I think the probability of the Cons just making it over the finishing line has increased.

    Still an awfully long way to go though.

    It's looking like Swinson's Revoke policy was a miscalculation. They were already ahead of Labour on trust when it comes to Brexit and didn't need to differentiate further.
    Wait till the final week then a CON majority equals certain Brexit.
    Good point. I think this campaign could potentially see unusually large late swings.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    @Black_Rook You're desperate for Corbyn to get smashed iirc and don't want to jinx it ;) ?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    I suppose the BP campaign literature in the other seats won’t go after the Tories and will instead just target Labour Leavers . In which case they’d hope to see the Tories come through the middle by taking those Labour Leavers .
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Cookie said:

    I think the problem for Boris is that he can only keep hold of theCon-LD switchers if his majority looks in doubt. If he's looking comfortable, it's harderto play on the fear of Cirbyn as PM. Thus, perhaps the next moveis a swing back to Lab and LD. Before a swing back again. The result of the election will depend upin where in this oscillation we end up!

    That's a phenomenon we've seen before (when it was Gordon) - used to be called Palmer's paradox, that if people are wary of you but dislike your opponents, you need to seem to be doing badly in order to do well.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    rcs1000 said:

    Am feeling more confident than before that the Lib Dems aren't going to make major progress in this election. They've very few ultra-marginal targets available, and not that many more that seem likely to fall on outsized swings in deep Remain areas.

    Everything therefore depends now on Labour's ability to get out the vote. Theresa May nearly won in 2017 with about a 2.5% lead; if Labour can't win back enough support to close the gap to something very close to that, then the Tories are home and hosed. It's then just a matter of the size of the majority.

    Personally, I've not changed my mind about this election being a close one, but I think the probability of the Cons just making it over the finishing line has increased.

    Still an awfully long way to go though.

    Interestingly, I'm beginning to shift the other way. I'm thinking my initial forecast of 21 seats (+9) is a bit skinny, in the context of (a) the libdems holding on at 16% in almost every poll, and (b) them being able to paint the Tories as Farage No Dealers in the South East and London. (I don't think the libdems ever had any chance in the South West, which is where the Brexit Party standing down will have the biggest effect.)
    But that depends critically on Tory LD soft remain waverers believing that installing extra Lib Dems won't lead to a Corbyn Government. Boris has the Deal to offer as insurance against No Deal. Swinson only has her word as insurance against Corbyn. And the LD position in this respect is easily debunked
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited November 2019
    Simple maths on the basis of if BXP standing makes it harder in marginals.
    Which is greater, Tories that will vote BXP or Labour leavers who would not countenance a blue vote but will vote BXP? If the latter then it's a net positive for Boris, if the former then job becomes harder
  • Noo said:

    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Its Remainers that want to keep us in the company of parties like Vox. Tories are trying to get us away from them.

    It’s people like you who want us to be more closely aligned with the joys of the US Republican Party
    No I don't. I want us to be an independent country on the global stage not aligned with anybody overseas.

    If I was an American I'd vote Democrat unless they choose someone crazy like Warren or Sanders in which case I'd probably vote Libertarian. I don't like anything to do with the modern GOP - the GOP I could like was the party of Reagan not Trump.
    Yes but we’re too small and weak to compete on the global stage. We are going to be surrounded on all sides by a growing superpower while we decline even further into irrelevance. All we can do is accept scraps of the Yanks table.
    What superpower? We're not surrounded by either USA [the worlds only current superpower] or China [the worlds next superpower].

    We are quite big and agile enough to compete on the global stage.
    We will be surrounded on all sides by the EU which is an incipient superpower. Europe is growing, the U.K. is dying. Harking back to our ties with places like Australia is like an pasty, terminally ill ex-boyfriend looking to get back with the ex he dumped when she has happily moved on to to bronzed Pacific hunks.
    LMAO! You think Europe is a superpower?

    Europe had superpowers until WWII, the idea of Europe as a power died decades ago. Europe is dying, European share of population, power and global GDP is in a complete downward trend.
    It's a sensible proposition, even if you don't agree. There's a useful summary of arguments for and against here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_superpowers
    Riiiightttt . . . so in 2 posts you've gone from us being "surrounded by a superpower" to "Europe could potentially be a superpower, there's arguments for and against". Funnily enough more arguments against and most of the arguments for preceded Brexit.

    Not that it matters. I'd rather be a successful independent nation than part of a superpower we don't need to be a part of. I'd rather be Canadian than American, I'd rather be English than European.
  • That's wrong. Just by the absence of a BXP candidate the Conservatives are going to lose significantly fewer of their existing seats now. So they will also need to win fewer of those 50 Labour held seats than they needed to before. A net gain of around 10 seats for Johnson should be enough.

    And that's before considering the impact of this announcement in reducing the BXP national opinion poll share (to say <5% henceforth?). The BXP will have difficulty convincing Leave voters that they are a contender even in the seats they are standing in.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 993
    If the Conservatives do get a majority then they will be in the grip of the ERG when the real Brexit negotiations start for life after the transition period.

    As May with a Conservative/DUP majority couldn't get a deal through because of the ERG don't be sure that Boris will be able to either.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864

    DavidL said:

    nunu2 said:

    And think they will stand down in some of those as well.
    Why the hell does he think that the Tories need to win 50 Labour marginals to get a majority? The only reason I can think of is that they would need to lose 40 seats to the LibDems/SNP. That seems way too high.
    https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1193882506153607174?s=19
    I think he is underestimating the benefit of replacing people like Letwin, Grieve, Clarke, Stewart, Hammond etc with people who will actually vote for government policy. There will be a series of wins for Boris on the night that are not official gains.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    TOPPING said:

    I was just going to say that we need an @AndyJS to crunch the constituencies.

    The above supports my view but has evidently been arrived at with more than (my) gut feel.
    I get the impression that Farage has been under enormous internal party pressure to not let Corbyn in and have Brexit cancelled. This is a big newsworthy moment that lets him say he is doing that, taking pressure off his back, while maintaining significant leverage to negotiate further.

    That said, I think it still helps the Tories a fair bit. Brexit party voters are about two thirds Tory and one third Labour. Let us make the (oversimplified but mainly accurate) view that the Tories are mainly hard right rural reactionaries and the Labour types are WWC Leave anti-Tories. I would imagine the first group mainly exist either in safe Tory seats or in Tory-Lib Dem marginals, which are currently mainly held by the Tories and were in danger of being lost to the Swinson surge. Farage has helped a lot there. The second group mainly exist innTory-Labour marginals, where the ones that matter are Labour held, and the BXP still standing slightly helps the Tories.

    Of course this is just my loose analysis and I would like to see the PB Boffins crunch the numbers.

  • I don't have an hour and a half to waste watching a video from a decade ago that is quite clearly ludicrous now.

    A decade ago China was less powerful than now and Europe was more powerful than now having not lost the United Kingdom. Oops!
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    Icarus said:

    If the Conservatives do get a majority then they will be in the grip of the ERG when the real Brexit negotiations start for life after the transition period.

    As May with a Conservative/DUP majority couldn't get a deal through because of the ERG don't be sure that Boris will be able to either.

    A majority of 10-20 yes. A majority of 65+ probably not.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Its Remainers that want to keep us in the company of parties like Vox. Tories are trying to get us away from them.

    It’s people like you who want us to be more closely aligned with the joys of the US Republican Party
    No I don't. I want us to be an independent country on the global stage not aligned with anybody overseas.

    If I was an American I'd vote Democrat unless they choose someone crazy like Warren or Sanders in which case I'd probably vote Libertarian. I don't like anything to do with the modern GOP - the GOP I could like was the party of Reagan not Trump.
    Yes but we’re too small and weak to compete on the global stage. We are going to be surrounded on all sides by a growing superpower while we decline even further into irrelevance. All we can do is accept scraps of the Yanks table.
    What superpower? We're not surrounded by either USA [the worlds only current superpower] or China [the worlds next superpower].

    We are quite big and agile enough to compete on the global stage.
    We will be surrounded on all sides by the EU which is an incipient superpower. Europe is growing, the U.K. is dying. Harking back to our ties with places like Australia is like an pasty, terminally ill ex-boyfriend looking to get back with the ex he dumped when she has happily moved on to to bronzed Pacific hunks.
    The UK's population is in fact, rising. It's economic growth rate is much of a muchness to that of the EU.
  • alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    Interesting. I was in the gym as the announcement came across. Weekdays in the gym is hoards of the retired.......and their response was unexpected. The nailed on Conservative supporters were appalled and questioning whether they could vote for a party backed by Farage. I am sure this will help the Conservatives in straight Labour/Conservative brexit supporting seats. Here in Guildford it seems to be having the opposite effect, which could be typical of southern remain seats where the Conservatives (other than their officers) despise brexit.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,212
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    nunu2 said:

    And think they will stand down in some of those as well.
    Why the hell does he think that the Tories need to win 50 Labour marginals to get a majority? The only reason I can think of is that they would need to lose 40 seats to the LibDems/SNP. That seems way too high.
    https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1193882506153607174?s=19
    I think he is underestimating the benefit of replacing people like Letwin, Grieve, Clarke, Stewart, Hammond etc with people who will actually vote for government policy. There will be a series of wins for Boris on the night that are not official gains.
    Who on earth is going to rebel in the new Tory post 2019 party ? There's one likely rebel in the entire HoC on Brexit now - and that's Caroline Flint (Who if the Tories defeat they'll have a majority anyway)

    322 seats is enough to 'get Brexit done'.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Corbyn is a fecking idiot.

    The way to respond to BXP standing down is to stand down where libdems can win not to rant on about a Trump-Thatcher conspiracy. Why is he so useless?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1193888404343275521

    But i'm happy because his idyocy means Tories will win more seats.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Of course Farages statements about not allowing a HP etc will be a soft signal to a number of BXP supporters to switch to the Tories even where they stand. Not in huge numbers but in those tight marginals perhaps enough. The politically detached who want to leave but are not keen politics watchers just heard, for perhaps the first time, the leader of the BXP say a vote for me may bugger Brexit. That will clearly move some votes.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,716

    I don't have an hour and a half to waste watching a video from a decade ago that is quite clearly ludicrous now.

    A decade ago China was less powerful than now and Europe was more powerful than now having not lost the United Kingdom. Oops!
    The essence is that in a world of positive-sum rather than zero-sum conflict, powers that are able to set the terms of multilateral deals are the ones with the ability to project their influence, and when you put it like that, it's obvious that the EU is a nascent superpower.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    What's this drop in LAB poll shares Mike's taking about?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2019

    I don't have an hour and a half to waste watching a video from a decade ago that is quite clearly ludicrous now.

    A decade ago China was less powerful than now and Europe was more powerful than now having not lost the United Kingdom. Oops!
    The essence is that in a world of positive-sum rather than zero-sum conflict, powers that are able to set the terms of multilateral deals are the ones with the ability to project their influence, and when you put it like that, it's obvious that the EU is a nascent superpower.
    The EU wasn't even able to convince its own most powerful military nation and on many projection the future largest economy in Europe to remain in the union.

    When you put it like that it's obvious that the EU is not a nascent superpower let alone as that video is headlined more of a superpower than China!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    nunu2 said: "Corbyn is a fecking idiot.

    The way to respond to BXP standing down is to stand down where libdems can win not to rant on about a Trump-Thatcher conspiracy. Why is he so useless?"

    I think that there is a rule of some sort in the Labour constitution that they have to compete in every constituency. Can anyone confirm?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    alb1on said:

    Interesting. I was in the gym as the announcement came across. Weekdays in the gym is hoards of the retired.......and their response was unexpected. The nailed on Conservative supporters were appalled and questioning whether they could vote for a party backed by Farage. I am sure this will help the Conservatives in straight Labour/Conservative brexit supporting seats. Here in Guildford it seems to be having the opposite effect, which could be typical of southern remain seats where the Conservatives (other than their officers) despise brexit.

    Lol did you canvass them on their voting intention while they were on the cross trainer before or after the whole gym stopped to watch the big announcement and began to reveal their innermost thoughts on its implications?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,716

    I don't have an hour and a half to waste watching a video from a decade ago that is quite clearly ludicrous now.

    A decade ago China was less powerful than now and Europe was more powerful than now having not lost the United Kingdom. Oops!
    The essence is that in a world of positive-sum rather than zero-sum conflict, powers that are able to set the terms of multilateral deals are the ones with the ability to project their influence, and when you put it like that, it's obvious that the EU is a nascent superpower.
    The EU wasn't even able to convince its own most powerful military nation to remain in the union.

    When you put it like that it's obvious that the EU is not a nascent superpower let alone as that video is headlined more of a superpower than China!
    It was able to coerce the so-called most powerful military nation into agreeing to an internal customs border.
  • Stocky said:

    nunu2 said: "Corbyn is a fecking idiot.

    The way to respond to BXP standing down is to stand down where libdems can win not to rant on about a Trump-Thatcher conspiracy. Why is he so useless?"

    I think that there is a rule of some sort in the Labour constitution that they have to compete in every constituency. Can anyone confirm?

    They don't stand in NI or the Speakers.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,864
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    nunu2 said:

    And think they will stand down in some of those as well.
    Why the hell does he think that the Tories need to win 50 Labour marginals to get a majority? The only reason I can think of is that they would need to lose 40 seats to the LibDems/SNP. That seems way too high.
    https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1193882506153607174?s=19
    I think he is underestimating the benefit of replacing people like Letwin, Grieve, Clarke, Stewart, Hammond etc with people who will actually vote for government policy. There will be a series of wins for Boris on the night that are not official gains.
    Who on earth is going to rebel in the new Tory post 2019 party ? There's one likely rebel in the entire HoC on Brexit now - and that's Caroline Flint (Who if the Tories defeat they'll have a majority anyway)

    322 seats is enough to 'get Brexit done'.
    That's my view. And when you add in those not standing again and those who are independents, Tiggers or Lib Dems you have the most united and coherent Tory party that we have seen for a very long time, for good or for ill. Boris may eventually have problems with the ERG as we come near to the end of the transition but right now there is no question what needs to be done and how it is to be done.
  • Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    nunu2 said:

    And think they will stand down in some of those as well.
    Why the hell does he think that the Tories need to win 50 Labour marginals to get a majority? The only reason I can think of is that they would need to lose 40 seats to the LibDems/SNP. That seems way too high.
    https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1193882506153607174?s=19
    I think he is underestimating the benefit of replacing people like Letwin, Grieve, Clarke, Stewart, Hammond etc with people who will actually vote for government policy. There will be a series of wins for Boris on the night that are not official gains.
    Who on earth is going to rebel in the new Tory post 2019 party ? There's one likely rebel in the entire HoC on Brexit now - and that's Caroline Flint (Who if the Tories defeat they'll have a majority anyway)

    322 seats is enough to 'get Brexit done'.
    There are a few Tory posters in here who should stand as Conservative PPC's. They will loyally vote for anything that the Glorious Leader wants.... :D
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    WRT Lib Dem prospects, Richmond Park, Cheltenham, Sheffield Hallam, and South Cambs. must be more or less nailed on. That takes them up to 16.

    I expect that St. Ives will be a Tory hold, and Totnes will be lost. NE Fife should be gained, on the back of Unionist tactical voting. St. Alban's looks a likely win (but I'm always cautious about calling that seat). Cambridge should be a win, and there will probably be a shock result or two in the London Stockbroker Belt. Hornsey & Wood Green, Hampstead & Kilburn, and other affluent Remain seats in London must be good prospects. All in all, I'd expect them to be on about two dozen seats.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    edited November 2019
    No one posted this yet?

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1193890952827539456

    Looking at it I'm struggling to work out where that Brexit vote is coming from unless the Lib Dem vote is from the Tory switches..
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    What's this drop in LAB poll shares Mike's taking about?

    That's actually a very good point. They may be softening on the betting markets but their VI numbers are getting better, even if not quite as quickly as I'd initially feared.

    Although there's still plenty of time left for things to go horribly wrong, of course.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751
    edited November 2019
    nunu2 said:

    Corbyn is a fecking idiot.

    The way to respond to BXP standing down is to stand down where libdems can win not to rant on about a Trump-Thatcher conspiracy. Why is he so useless?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1193888404343275521

    But i'm happy because his idyocy means Tories will win more seats.

    You might as well say Swinson is an idiot not to stand down candidates in seats where Labour could win, or to have said she wouldn't support Corbyn as PM, even as an emergency interim measure to avoid No Deal.

    Why should Labour try to help the Lib Dems if there's no quid pro quo?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    DougSeal said:

    FPT

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Its Remainers that want to keep us in the company of parties like Vox. Tories are trying to get us away from them.

    It’s people like you who want us to be more closely aligned with the joys of the US Republican Party
    No I don't. I want us to be an independent country on the global stage not aligned with anybody overseas.

    If I was an American I'd vote Democrat unless they choose someone crazy like Warren or Sanders in which case I'd probably vote Libertarian. I don't like anything to do with the modern GOP - the GOP I could like was the party of Reagan not Trump.
    Yes but we’re too small and weak to compete on the global stage. We are going to be surrounded on all sides by a growing superpower while we decline even further into irrelevance. All we can do is accept scraps of the Yanks table.
    What superpower? We're not surrounded by either USA [the worlds only current superpower] or China [the worlds next superpower].

    We are quite big and agile enough to compete on the global stage.
    We will be surrounded on all sides by the EU which is an incipient superpower. Europe is growing, the U.K. is dying. Harking back to our ties with places like Australia is like an pasty, terminally ill ex-boyfriend looking to get back with the ex he dumped when she has happily moved on to to bronzed Pacific hunks.
    The US is already a superpower, China is becoming one via economic growth, urbanisation, etc. Where's the EU's growth coming from to take them "incipient" to "actual"?

    Note: your answer must not include the word "Turkey".
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited November 2019
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    nunu2 said:

    And think they will stand down in some of those as well.
    Why the hell does he think that the Tories need to win 50 Labour marginals to get a majority? The only reason I can think of is that they would need to lose 40 seats to the LibDems/SNP. That seems way too high.
    https://twitter.com/joe_armitage/status/1193882506153607174?s=19
    I think he is underestimating the benefit of replacing people like Letwin, Grieve, Clarke, Stewart, Hammond etc with people who will actually vote for government policy. There will be a series of wins for Boris on the night that are not official gains.
    Fair point in terms of the arithmetic.

    Nonetheless, as a (former) Labour member and activist from 1979 to 2018, whose recollection of Letwin, Grieve, Clarke and Hammond etc goes back much further than their role in the recent Brexit-related shambles, I am struggling to come to terms with how getting rid of them can in any way be seen as a "win for the right".

    Hammond. The Chancellor who continued the benefit freeze from 2016 to 2019. Now thought of as an ally by many claiming to be on the left. It should be shadenfreude and good riddance.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    DavidL said: "That's my view. And when you add in those not standing again and those who are independents, Tiggers or Lib Dems you have the most united and coherent Tory party that we have seen for a very long time, for good or for ill. Boris may eventually have problems with the ERG as we come near to the end of the transition but right now there is no question what needs to be done and how it is to be done."

    A really long shot this - but Betfair Exchange has 33/1 on Brexit happening in 2019. Possible?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    Chris said:

    nunu2 said:

    Corbyn is a fecking idiot.

    The way to respond to BXP standing down is to stand down where libdems can win not to rant on about a Trump-Thatcher conspiracy. Why is he so useless?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1193888404343275521

    But i'm happy because his idyocy means Tories will win more seats.

    You might as well say Swinson is an idiot not to stand down candidates in seats where Labour could win, or to have said she wouldn't support Corbyn as PM, even as an emergency interim measure to avoid No Deal.

    Why should Labour try to help the Lib Dems if there's no quid pro quo?
    I'm sure the quid pro quo will be more standing but without any effort placed in campaigning - that's what I expect things around here to be like.
This discussion has been closed.