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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Review : The 2017 – 2019 Parliament

SystemSystem Posts: 12,055
edited November 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Review : The 2017 – 2019 Parliament

When I started this, I, like most people, believed I would be tallying the local by-elections for October 2019. Now, I find myself publishing the data for every by-election in the 2017 – 2019 Parliament! And, aside from everything happening inside Westminster, what an eventful few years it has been in local by-elections. We’ve had Labour gaining seats from the United Kingdom Independence Party, Local Independents gaining seats from Labour and Conservatives, Greens gaining seats from the Conservatives, Liberal Democrat gains from UKIP, Independent gains from Labour, SNP gains from Liberal Democrat and even some oxymorons in the form of Green gains from Independents, and an Independent gain from a local Independent!

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Winning Here!
  • Welll done to the Rainbow Nation! I must admit I was supporting them, because of Ms Briskin's family heritage, even though she was supporting England (by sleeping through the final)
  • We really need a Scotland only poll that we can plug into our electoral calculus so we know where we stand.

    Just had a flutter on SNP under 50.5 so was disheartened to read your prediction Harry.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,583
    Thank you, Harry!
  • Tories and fracking, an historical perspective.

    https://twitter.com/Zombie_Jeebus/status/1190623680319148033?s=20
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,975
    Afternoon PB - Everyone ready for our first Mega Polling Saturday evening of the general election? :D
  • Tories and fracking, an historical perspective.

    https://twitter.com/Zombie_Jeebus/status/1190623680319148033?s=20

    Stupid shit like smoking ban, gay marriage etc. etc. always starts in Scotland.

    Time to disband Holyrood.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,773
    This is about as useful as aggregating all opinion polls over the last two and a half years - and seeing tonight's polls drowned in the averaging!

    And even since August, Boris has got the deal without a backstop that they said was impossible. Personally, I think we should just go with the latest by-election, that saw Labour go from 1st to 4th.... :)
  • BJTBJT Posts: 14
    I think I'd be quite happy with those party splits, Harry.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Tories and fracking, an historical perspective.

    https://twitter.com/Zombie_Jeebus/status/1190623680319148033?s=20

    Stupid shit like smoking ban, gay marriage etc. etc. always starts in Scotland.

    Time to disband Holyrood.
    Homophobe
  • To have both main parties below 300 MPs, and both making more than 30 net losses, would be all my Christmases at once.
  • Harry's projected result is perfectly creditable.

    One thing not much commented on is what the Tories are going to offer in their manifesto soft centre-right Remainer voters in the South to stick with them, and not go to the LDs.

    Today's Telegraph suggested they might show a bit of leg on tax cuts.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,773
    Dresden has declared a "Nazi emergency":

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50266955
  • We really need a Scotland only poll that we can plug into our electoral calculus so we know where we stand.

    Just had a flutter on SNP under 50.5 so was disheartened to read your prediction Harry.

    Don't be, with the play the SNP and Sturgeon are making (that this GE is effectively to seek a mandate for a second referendum) Unionist voters will vote accordingly.

    I expect most Unionist seats to be very sticky.
  • LOL.

    Confusion as NO ONE turns up for 'huge' pro Brexit demo in Doncaster.

    A ‘huge’ pro-Brexit demonstration planned for Doncaster this morning has caused confusion after no-one turned up.


    https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/confusion-no-one-turns-huge-pro-brexit-demo-doncaster-825135
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 437
    Harry's slightly mis-stating the LibDem position. I'm assuming, BTW, that his projections are based on local results since August 2019.

    We've said we won't put Corbyn into No 10, and we won't go into another coalition with a big party. Neither necessarily stops us from voting with a Labour-led coalition on an ad hoc basis though it's obvious that we'd be a great deal more co-operative with a Labour party led by a real social democrat.

    But if it came to a choice between mostly voting with a Referendum-supporting, Corbyn-led, grouping and voting with a Johnson-led Tory rump still chained to a Withdrawal Agreement we can't stand, common sense says we'd hold our noses and vote with Labour most of the time.

    And Harry's numbers would mean Corbyn would be under the cosh. He';d have lost seats - so many LibDems would be pressurising the LD leadership to make an imminent Labour leadership contest a condition of support: remember the LD constitution almost certainly requires an EGM to approve even a C&S deal with Labour.

    Of course: how accurate Harry's projections are we won't know till Dec 13. And there's an AWFUL lot of water to flow under bridges in the next six weeks. Tonight's will probably be as useful a guide to the end result as the position of forces on September 6, 1939.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    LOL.

    Confusion as NO ONE turns up for 'huge' pro Brexit demo in Doncaster.

    A ‘huge’ pro-Brexit demonstration planned for Doncaster this morning has caused confusion after no-one turned up.


    https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/confusion-no-one-turns-huge-pro-brexit-demo-doncaster-825135

    It's easy to laugh. So let's do that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,780
    The whole point of VAR is to get close decisions correct. Offside is offside, whether by a cm or a kilometre.

    It all evens out over a season. At Leicester we have had such marginal decisions go both ways.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,780

    LOL.

    Confusion as NO ONE turns up for 'huge' pro Brexit demo in Doncaster.

    A ‘huge’ pro-Brexit demonstration planned for Doncaster this morning has caused confusion after no-one turned up.


    https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/confusion-no-one-turns-huge-pro-brexit-demo-doncaster-825135

    They are probably eating their avocado toast instead.
  • Foxy said:

    The whole point of VAR is to get close decisions correct. Offside is offside, whether by a cm or a kilometre.

    It all evens out over a season. At Leicester we have had such marginal decisions go both ways.
    Except VAR has a margin of error in the 10cm's

    At 50 fps the ball and players are moving a material amount between each frame to mean that VAR cannot give a definitive accurate answer when the margins are less than the margin of error.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,780

    Foxy said:

    The whole point of VAR is to get close decisions correct. Offside is offside, whether by a cm or a kilometre.

    It all evens out over a season. At Leicester we have had such marginal decisions go both ways.
    Except VAR has a margin of error in the 10cm's

    At 50 fps the ball and players are moving a material amount between each frame to mean that VAR cannot give a definitive accurate answer when the margins are less than the margin of error.
    No system is perfect, but it has reduced the error rate substantially.
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    Thanks for this, and your ongoing work, Mr. Hayfield.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The whole point of VAR is to get close decisions correct. Offside is offside, whether by a cm or a kilometre.

    It all evens out over a season. At Leicester we have had such marginal decisions go both ways.
    Except VAR has a margin of error in the 10cm's

    At 50 fps the ball and players are moving a material amount between each frame to mean that VAR cannot give a definitive accurate answer when the margins are less than the margin of error.
    No system is perfect, but it has reduced the error rate substantially.
    Not in my experience.

    The massive downside of the delays and uncertainty about whether to celebrate a goal far outweighs any marginal improvement in quality of decision.

    This VAR has totally changed the sport, for the worse.

    As a season ticket holder at Old Trafford the faster we see the back of it the better.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Flanner said:

    Harry's slightly mis-stating the LibDem position. I'm assuming, BTW, that his projections are based on local results since August 2019.

    We've said we won't put Corbyn into No 10, and we won't go into another coalition with a big party. Neither necessarily stops us from voting with a Labour-led coalition on an ad hoc basis though it's obvious that we'd be a great deal more co-operative with a Labour party led by a real social democrat.

    But if it came to a choice between mostly voting with a Referendum-supporting, Corbyn-led, grouping and voting with a Johnson-led Tory rump still chained to a Withdrawal Agreement we can't stand, common sense says we'd hold our noses and vote with Labour most of the time.

    And Harry's numbers would mean Corbyn would be under the cosh. He';d have lost seats - so many LibDems would be pressurising the LD leadership to make an imminent Labour leadership contest a condition of support: remember the LD constitution almost certainly requires an EGM to approve even a C&S deal with Labour.

    Of course: how accurate Harry's projections are we won't know till Dec 13. And there's an AWFUL lot of water to flow under bridges in the next six weeks. Tonight's will probably be as useful a guide to the end result as the position of forces on September 6, 1939.

    Thanks for that - shared that with my wife who now says she will not risk a vote on the Lib Dems
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    As the projection is based (arbitrarily) on local by-elections since August 2019, it would be helpful if the article stated how many such by-elections there were.

    We are told ~ 500 by-elections since the last GE, so it looks as though the prediction is based on ~ 40 by-elections.

    If you carried out this exercise for the last general election of June 2017, and took all by-election results for the preceding 3 months to generate a prediction, how accurate would your answer have been ?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    This is about as useful as aggregating all opinion polls over the last two and a half years - and seeing tonight's polls drowned in the averaging!

    And even since August, Boris has got the deal without a backstop that they said was impossible. Personally, I think we should just go with the latest by-election, that saw Labour go from 1st to 4th.... :)

    Which seems a good time to post this

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/02/revealed-50-seats-five-point-swing-could-see-labour-lose-tories/
  • Question for all the clever stato people on here. Can any poll, poll of polls, prior history be considered accurate within any realistic margin of error?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,012

    Tories and fracking, an historical perspective.

    https://twitter.com/Zombie_Jeebus/status/1190623680319148033?s=20

    Stupid shit like smoking ban, gay marriage etc. etc. always starts in Scotland.

    Time to disband Holyrood.
    Time to get rid of morons
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,012

    We really need a Scotland only poll that we can plug into our electoral calculus so we know where we stand.

    Just had a flutter on SNP under 50.5 so was disheartened to read your prediction Harry.

    Don't be, with the play the SNP and Sturgeon are making (that this GE is effectively to seek a mandate for a second referendum) Unionist voters will vote accordingly.

    I expect most Unionist seats to be very sticky.
    LOL
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,012
    Noo said:

    Tories and fracking, an historical perspective.

    https://twitter.com/Zombie_Jeebus/status/1190623680319148033?s=20

    Stupid shit like smoking ban, gay marriage etc. etc. always starts in Scotland.

    Time to disband Holyrood.
    Homophobe
    you are being kind to him, you could have put up a list as long as your arm
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,583
    I support VAR but I do wonder about this decision.

    Firmino doesn't appear to be leaning forward hardly at all so I do wonder about the angle of the line down from the armpit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,780
    edited November 2019

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The whole point of VAR is to get close decisions correct. Offside is offside, whether by a cm or a kilometre.

    It all evens out over a season. At Leicester we have had such marginal decisions go both ways.
    Except VAR has a margin of error in the 10cm's

    At 50 fps the ball and players are moving a material amount between each frame to mean that VAR cannot give a definitive accurate answer when the margins are less than the margin of error.
    No system is perfect, but it has reduced the error rate substantially.
    Not in my experience.

    The massive downside of the delays and uncertainty about whether to celebrate a goal far outweighs any marginal improvement in quality of decision.

    This VAR has totally changed the sport, for the worse.

    As a season ticket holder at Old Trafford the faster we see the back of it the better.
    My commiserations!

    At the King Power it hasn't held things up much.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,276

    This is about as useful as aggregating all opinion polls over the last two and a half years - and seeing tonight's polls drowned in the averaging!

    And even since August, Boris has got the deal without a backstop that they said was impossible. Personally, I think we should just go with the latest by-election, that saw Labour go from 1st to 4th.... :)

    Was it ever thought "impossible" to strong arm the EU into accepting their own preferred NI only backstop instead of the GB one they were much less keen on?

    Fair enough if it was. But where does that leave life on Mars?
  • Banterman said:

    Question for all the clever stato people on here. Can any poll, poll of polls, prior history be considered accurate within any realistic margin of error?

    I think the short answer is no, as is clear from looking at the recent history of opinion polling. The margins of error reported are based on the assumption that you have polled a proper random sample of the population. In reality this is impossible given biases introduced by high non response rates and the like and so polling companies resort to various techniques to mimic a random sample, eg by weighting according to certain demographic characteristics, all of which introduce the potential for quite significant and systematic error, which renders the reported margins of error more or less meaningless. That is my understanding of the situation anyway. Polls probably do tell you something about shifts in public opinion and are probably correct big picture - eg it is probably true that the Conservatives are ahead of Labour and the Lib Dems who are in turn ahead of BXP and the Greens, and Labour is probably ahead of the Lib Dems. But is that helpful to know?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,780
    edited November 2019

    Banterman said:

    Question for all the clever stato people on here. Can any poll, poll of polls, prior history be considered accurate within any realistic margin of error?

    I think the short answer is no, as is clear from looking at the recent history of opinion polling. The margins of error reported are based on the assumption that you have polled a proper random sample of the population. In reality this is impossible given biases introduced by high non response rates and the like and so polling companies resort to various techniques to mimic a random sample, eg by weighting according to certain demographic characteristics, all of which introduce the potential for quite significant and systematic error, which renders the reported margins of error more or less meaningless. That is my understanding of the situation anyway. Polls probably do tell you something about shifts in public opinion and are probably correct big picture - eg it is probably true that the Conservatives are ahead of Labour and the Lib Dems who are in turn ahead of BXP and the Greens, and Labour is probably ahead of the Lib Dems. But is that helpful to know?
    Probably the most reliable are those like YouGov who have a big enough panel to resample the same people, so able to detect real change and not rely on past recall.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,276

    LOL.

    Confusion as NO ONE turns up for 'huge' pro Brexit demo in Doncaster.

    A ‘huge’ pro-Brexit demonstration planned for Doncaster this morning has caused confusion after no-one turned up.


    https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/confusion-no-one-turns-huge-pro-brexit-demo-doncaster-825135

    I read the story and found it quite poignant. Apparently there was also a plan to light beacons in several locations nationwide. These beacons will probably not now be lit.
  • kinabalu said:

    LOL.

    Confusion as NO ONE turns up for 'huge' pro Brexit demo in Doncaster.

    A ‘huge’ pro-Brexit demonstration planned for Doncaster this morning has caused confusion after no-one turned up.


    https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/confusion-no-one-turns-huge-pro-brexit-demo-doncaster-825135

    I read the story and found it quite poignant. Apparently there was also a plan to light beacons in several locations nationwide. These beacons will probably not now be lit.
    These are Leavers. They can improvise with flaming pitchforks.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,059
    kinabalu said:

    LOL.

    Confusion as NO ONE turns up for 'huge' pro Brexit demo in Doncaster.

    A ‘huge’ pro-Brexit demonstration planned for Doncaster this morning has caused confusion after no-one turned up.


    https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/confusion-no-one-turns-huge-pro-brexit-demo-doncaster-825135

    I read the story and found it quite poignant. Apparently there was also a plan to light beacons in several locations nationwide. These beacons will probably not now be lit.
    Given the wind at the moment round here, beacons would be a bit iffy anyway. However, what's like about having a heart of stone and laughing?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,688

    Banterman said:

    Question for all the clever stato people on here. Can any poll, poll of polls, prior history be considered accurate within any realistic margin of error?

    I think the short answer is no, as is clear from looking at the recent history of opinion polling. The margins of error reported are based on the assumption that you have polled a proper random sample of the population. In reality this is impossible given biases introduced by high non response rates and the like and so polling companies resort to various techniques to mimic a random sample, eg by weighting according to certain demographic characteristics, all of which introduce the potential for quite significant and systematic error, which renders the reported margins of error more or less meaningless. That is my understanding of the situation anyway. Polls probably do tell you something about shifts in public opinion and are probably correct big picture - eg it is probably true that the Conservatives are ahead of Labour and the Lib Dems who are in turn ahead of BXP and the Greens, and Labour is probably ahead of the Lib Dems. But is that helpful to know?
    Isn't the turnout factor an even bigger difficulty than getting (or adjusting to get) a representative sample?
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    kinabalu said:

    LOL.

    Confusion as NO ONE turns up for 'huge' pro Brexit demo in Doncaster.

    A ‘huge’ pro-Brexit demonstration planned for Doncaster this morning has caused confusion after no-one turned up.


    https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/confusion-no-one-turns-huge-pro-brexit-demo-doncaster-825135

    I read the story and found it quite poignant. Apparently there was also a plan to light beacons in several locations nationwide. These beacons will probably not now be lit.
    These are Leavers. They can improvise with flaming pitchforks.
    They are leavers. Practicalities are irrelevant. You just have to believe.
  • MikeL said:

    I support VAR but I do wonder about this decision.

    Firmino doesn't appear to be leaning forward hardly at all so I do wonder about the angle of the line down from the armpit.
    Changes are needed to VAR. At present it seems to operate as a system for ruling out goals only. It almost never awards penalties that would not have been awarded in the absence of VAR. So, all other things being equal, matches subject to VAR will see fewer goals than other matches.

    One change that could restore a bit of balance would be to redefine the offside law in matches subject to VAR so that for an offside the torso of the attacking player needs to be in front of any part of the defending player. Attackers' big toes will no longer count.
  • Chris said:

    Banterman said:

    Question for all the clever stato people on here. Can any poll, poll of polls, prior history be considered accurate within any realistic margin of error?

    I think the short answer is no, as is clear from looking at the recent history of opinion polling. The margins of error reported are based on the assumption that you have polled a proper random sample of the population. In reality this is impossible given biases introduced by high non response rates and the like and so polling companies resort to various techniques to mimic a random sample, eg by weighting according to certain demographic characteristics, all of which introduce the potential for quite significant and systematic error, which renders the reported margins of error more or less meaningless. That is my understanding of the situation anyway. Polls probably do tell you something about shifts in public opinion and are probably correct big picture - eg it is probably true that the Conservatives are ahead of Labour and the Lib Dems who are in turn ahead of BXP and the Greens, and Labour is probably ahead of the Lib Dems. But is that helpful to know?
    Isn't the turnout factor an even bigger difficulty than getting (or adjusting to get) a representative sample?
    I think the turnout factor was a problem mostly as a consequence of the prior problem of not being able to find a random sample. Also because of the problem that people lie, as much to themselves as to others.

    The MRP approach, as I understand it, works by giving up on the fiction of a random sample from the whole population and instead committing fully to a demographic approach by constructing adequately sized samples for each demographic group. As it also uses finer grained demographic groups than in a normal opinion poll you end up with a requirement for a much larger sample of ~50,000.

    I think these will be reasonably accurate, provided your chosen demographic groups are sufficient to explain enough of the variance in support in the sample. So it's possible that they could struggle if there's a new faultline in society that they neglect.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,453
    I expect there to be next to no leave or remain protests for the next month or so. People have the ballot box available to let their thoughts known now.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,583
    GIN1138 said:

    Afternoon PB - Everyone ready for our first Mega Polling Saturday evening of the general election? :D

    I am prepared.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,276

    Given the wind at the moment round here, beacons would be a bit iffy anyway. However, what's like about having a heart of stone and laughing?

    There's something sad about beacons being prepared and then remaining unlit. Not sure what it is, but that gets to me. Little things are often (to me) more piercing than the big ones. Your pride and joy new car getting a small dent. A much anticipated first date not quite working out. A joke told with great relish failing to raise a chuckle. This sort of thing.

    But good news for Boris here, I think, because it probably shows that the Leave community are NOT angry with him about us not leaving on 31 Oct. They don't feel betrayed. They trust him to get us out after the GE, if he wins. They view him and his Deal as proper Leave. That would be my take anyway.
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,989

    This is about as useful as aggregating all opinion polls over the last two and a half years - and seeing tonight's polls drowned in the averaging!

    And even since August, Boris has got the deal without a backstop that they said was impossible. Personally, I think we should just go with the latest by-election, that saw Labour go from 1st to 4th.... :)

    On the basis of the 3 by-elections this week the Conservatives and the Lib Dems are both on 36%.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,106
    edited November 2019
    GIN1138 said:

    Afternoon PB - Everyone ready for our first Mega Polling Saturday evening of the general election? :D

    After a wet afternoon delivering leaflets in Harlow for Robert Halfon, cannot contain myself
  • RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Afternoon PB - Everyone ready for our first Mega Polling Saturday evening of the general election? :D

    I am prepared.
    I am ready, man! Ready to get it on!
  • The ORB International survey for the newspaper puts the Tories on 36 per cent, with 28 for Labour, 14 per cent for the Liberal Democrats and 12 per cent for Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party.

    Undertaken on Wednesday and Thursday, the new poll is likely to spark concern within the Conservative campaign.

    Experts warned that Mr Johnson will need to significantly increase his lead to be sure of securing a majority.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,975
    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Afternoon PB - Everyone ready for our first Mega Polling Saturday evening of the general election? :D

    I am prepared.
    Popcorn and bear on standby. :D
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,106
    Tories 36% Labour 28% LDs 14% Brexit Party 12% not much different to other pollsters
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,024
    edited November 2019

    The ORB International survey for the newspaper puts the Tories on 36 per cent, with 28 for Labour, 14 per cent for the Liberal Democrats and 12 per cent for Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party.

    Undertaken on Wednesday and Thursday, the new poll is likely to spark concern within the Conservative campaign.

    Experts warned that Mr Johnson will need to significantly increase his lead to be sure of securing a majority.

    That's a bit of an odd take. Sure a majority is not guaranteed, but an 8pt lead is far from terrible. Anyone who thought a majority was guaranteed was guilty of tremendous hubris or pessimism depending on their party support.

    Farage will be pleased though. The more the Tory majority looks at risk, the greater the impact his party has on whether the Tories can cross the line - and having an impact, even negative, appears to be his preferred option.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,251
    Foxy said:

    Banterman said:

    Question for all the clever stato people on here. Can any poll, poll of polls, prior history be considered accurate within any realistic margin of error?

    I think the short answer is no, as is clear from looking at the recent history of opinion polling. The margins of error reported are based on the assumption that you have polled a proper random sample of the population. In reality this is impossible given biases introduced by high non response rates and the like and so polling companies resort to various techniques to mimic a random sample, eg by weighting according to certain demographic characteristics, all of which introduce the potential for quite significant and systematic error, which renders the reported margins of error more or less meaningless. That is my understanding of the situation anyway. Polls probably do tell you something about shifts in public opinion and are probably correct big picture - eg it is probably true that the Conservatives are ahead of Labour and the Lib Dems who are in turn ahead of BXP and the Greens, and Labour is probably ahead of the Lib Dems. But is that helpful to know?
    Probably the most reliable are those like YouGov who have a big enough panel to resample the same people, so able to detect real change and not rely on past recall.
    But still, people who want to earn small sums of money being a part of an online panel are probably not that representative of the population as a whole.
  • PendduPenddu Posts: 265
    Boris = England Rugby Team

    Overhyped losers...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The main thing that counts is the average lead and it's still in double figures I think.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,780
    edited November 2019

    MikeL said:

    I support VAR but I do wonder about this decision.

    Firmino doesn't appear to be leaning forward hardly at all so I do wonder about the angle of the line down from the armpit.
    Changes are needed to VAR. At present it seems to operate as a system for ruling out goals only. It almost never awards penalties that would not have been awarded in the absence of VAR. So, all other things being equal, matches subject to VAR will see fewer goals than other matches.

    One change that could restore a bit of balance would be to redefine the offside law in matches subject to VAR so that for an offside the torso of the attacking player needs to be in front of any part of the defending player. Attackers' big toes will no longer count.
    No, offside is offside.

    Wasn't Firmino's goal flagged as offside by the linesman, so without VAR wouldn't have stood?
  • Slightly odd choice of headline. A majority on those figures is perfectly plausible.

  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    HYUFD said:

    Tories 36% Labour 28% LDs 14% Brexit Party 12% not much different to other pollsters
    That is different. Labour on 28? That's UP.

    Has Corbyn engineered another surge? Has Boris blown this?

    All this and shitty weather, a World Cup final defeat, and fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
  • GIN1138 said:

    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Afternoon PB - Everyone ready for our first Mega Polling Saturday evening of the general election? :D

    I am prepared.
    Popcorn and bear on standby. :D
    For which party will the polling be grizzly?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,024

    Slightly odd choice of headline. A majority on those figures is perfectly plausible.

    I suspect the Tories are so afraid of triumphalism they might even get a bit cautious in their predictions.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Actually the "changes since" do put an entirely different gloss on this.

    Looks like ORB tend to favour Labour, and who the fuck are ORB anyway
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,796
    I keep meaning to ask Harry what Keith Vaz is doing with that 'POLLING STATION' sticker?
  • DeClareDeClare Posts: 483
    kle4 said:

    The ORB International survey for the newspaper puts the Tories on 36 per cent, with 28 for Labour, 14 per cent for the Liberal Democrats and 12 per cent for Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party.

    Undertaken on Wednesday and Thursday, the new poll is likely to spark concern within the Conservative campaign.

    Experts warned that Mr Johnson will need to significantly increase his lead to be sure of securing a majority.

    That's a bit of an odd take. Sure a majority is not guaranteed, but an 8pt lead is far from terrible. Anyone who thought a majority was guaranteed was guilty of tremendous hubris or pessimism depending on their party support.

    Farage will be pleased though. The more the Tory majority looks at risk, the greater the impact his party has on whether the Tories can cross the line - and having an impact, even negative, appears to be his preferred option.
    Very Odd I've put those figures into Electoral Calculus, assuming 3% for the Greens and it gives a Tory majority of 66.
    Boris would be over the moon with that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,251
    GIN1138 said:

    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Afternoon PB - Everyone ready for our first Mega Polling Saturday evening of the general election? :D

    I am prepared.
    Popcorn and bear on standby. :D
    Bear!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,106
    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tories 36% Labour 28% LDs 14% Brexit Party 12% not much different to other pollsters
    That is different. Labour on 28? That's UP.

    Has Corbyn engineered another surge? Has Boris blown this?

    All this and shitty weather, a World Cup final defeat, and fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
    Tories up 10% on the last ORB poll actually and Labour down 1%
  • Byronic said:

    Actually the "changes since" do put an entirely different gloss on this.

    Looks like ORB tend to favour Labour, and who the fuck are ORB anyway
    The changes are from a period when the Tories were about to poll sub 10% in a nationwide election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,106
    edited November 2019
    A Tory lead over Labour of 8% would be the biggest Tory lead since 1992 at a general election and the LDs are lower than they got in 1992 too on that poll
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,780

    GIN1138 said:

    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Afternoon PB - Everyone ready for our first Mega Polling Saturday evening of the general election? :D

    I am prepared.
    Popcorn and bear on standby. :D
    For which party will the polling be grizzly?
    We have to wait and see what the Polar results are...
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    Actually the "changes since" do put an entirely different gloss on this.

    Looks like ORB tend to favour Labour, and who the fuck are ORB anyway
    The changes are from a period when the Tories were about to poll sub 10% in a nationwide election.
    Yeah, I just had a look.

    So are ORB any good? They are used by the Telegraph but infrequently, it seems.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,251
    HYUFD said:

    Tories 36% Labour 28% LDs 14% Brexit Party 12% not much different to other pollsters
    I'm not a great ORB fan, and I doubt BXP will get 12%. A more likely result would be 40/28/14/8, but worth noting that still leaves 10% for others, which seems a little on the high side.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,251
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Actually the "changes since" do put an entirely different gloss on this.

    Looks like ORB tend to favour Labour, and who the fuck are ORB anyway
    The changes are from a period when the Tories were about to poll sub 10% in a nationwide election.
    Yeah, I just had a look.

    So are ORB any good? They are used by the Telegraph but infrequently, it seems.
    ORB, if I recall correctly, don't publish their raw data and aren't a member of the BRC. So, they might be good... but at the same time, you need to be a little bit sceptical.
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,892
    Opinium is out as well.
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Actually the "changes since" do put an entirely different gloss on this.

    Looks like ORB tend to favour Labour, and who the fuck are ORB anyway
    The changes are from a period when the Tories were about to poll sub 10% in a nationwide election.
    Yeah, I just had a look.

    So are ORB any good? They are used by the Telegraph but infrequently, it seems.
    ORB are a BPC registered pollster, like all pollsters in recent times they've had their hits and misses.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    rcs1000 said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Actually the "changes since" do put an entirely different gloss on this.

    Looks like ORB tend to favour Labour, and who the fuck are ORB anyway
    The changes are from a period when the Tories were about to poll sub 10% in a nationwide election.
    Yeah, I just had a look.

    So are ORB any good? They are used by the Telegraph but infrequently, it seems.
    ORB, if I recall correctly, don't publish their raw data and aren't a member of the BRC. So, they might be good... but at the same time, you need to be a little bit sceptical.
    They ARE members of the BPC
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,780
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Banterman said:

    Question for all the clever stato people on here. Can any poll, poll of polls, prior history be considered accurate within any realistic margin of error?

    I think the short answer is no, as is clear from looking at the recent history of opinion polling. The margins of error reported are based on the assumption that you have polled a proper random sample of the population. In reality this is impossible given biases introduced by high non response rates and the like and so polling companies resort to various techniques to mimic a random sample, eg by weighting according to certain demographic characteristics, all of which introduce the potential for quite significant and systematic error, which renders the reported margins of error more or less meaningless. That is my understanding of the situation anyway. Polls probably do tell you something about shifts in public opinion and are probably correct big picture - eg it is probably true that the Conservatives are ahead of Labour and the Lib Dems who are in turn ahead of BXP and the Greens, and Labour is probably ahead of the Lib Dems. But is that helpful to know?
    Probably the most reliable are those like YouGov who have a big enough panel to resample the same people, so able to detect real change and not rely on past recall.
    But still, people who want to earn small sums of money being a part of an online panel are probably not that representative of the population as a whole.
    Of course, but the scale of the panels is huge.

    I am much more suspicious of phone polls in the modern age, such as the one last night from Workington. Those who answer landlines to such surveys are queer fish indeed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,024
    Foxy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Afternoon PB - Everyone ready for our first Mega Polling Saturday evening of the general election? :D

    I am prepared.
    Popcorn and bear on standby. :D
    For which party will the polling be grizzly?
    We have to wait and see what the Polar results are...
    Some suggest certain pollsters Panda to particular parties.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,975
    edited November 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Afternoon PB - Everyone ready for our first Mega Polling Saturday evening of the general election? :D

    I am prepared.
    Popcorn and bear on standby. :D
    Bear!
    I was testing to see whether people are actually awake on here - Been kind of sleepy this afternoon. ;)

    :D:D:D
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 41,276
    Foxy said:

    We have to wait and see what the Polar results are...

    People seem to think that ORB don't cut the ice as pollsters.

    But is that simply because they look OK for Labour?
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Right so these numbers are actially pretty good for this pollster for the tories
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,773
    GIN1138 said:

    RobD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Afternoon PB - Everyone ready for our first Mega Polling Saturday evening of the general election? :D

    I am prepared.
    Popcorn and bear on standby. :D
    Our viewing of political updates are polar opposites.......
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,277
    edited November 2019
    Deleted
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    DeClare said:

    kle4 said:

    The ORB International survey for the newspaper puts the Tories on 36 per cent, with 28 for Labour, 14 per cent for the Liberal Democrats and 12 per cent for Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party.

    Undertaken on Wednesday and Thursday, the new poll is likely to spark concern within the Conservative campaign.

    Experts warned that Mr Johnson will need to significantly increase his lead to be sure of securing a majority.

    That's a bit of an odd take. Sure a majority is not guaranteed, but an 8pt lead is far from terrible. Anyone who thought a majority was guaranteed was guilty of tremendous hubris or pessimism depending on their party support.

    Farage will be pleased though. The more the Tory majority looks at risk, the greater the impact his party has on whether the Tories can cross the line - and having an impact, even negative, appears to be his preferred option.
    Very Odd I've put those figures into Electoral Calculus, assuming 3% for the Greens and it gives a Tory majority of 66.
    Boris would be over the moon with that.
    The media need a close election
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,020
    Looks to me like The Daily Telegraph are trying to avoid triumphalism. They don't want to make the same mistake as 2017, where a poll like this would probably be reported as "Boris on course for massive majority".
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Boris really needs to finish off the BXP, then he will walk this
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,101
    Byronic said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Actually the "changes since" do put an entirely different gloss on this.

    Looks like ORB tend to favour Labour, and who the fuck are ORB anyway
    The changes are from a period when the Tories were about to poll sub 10% in a nationwide election.
    Yeah, I just had a look.

    So are ORB any good? They are used by the Telegraph but infrequently, it seems.
    ORB, if I recall correctly, don't publish their raw data and aren't a member of the BRC. So, they might be good... but at the same time, you need to be a little bit sceptical.
    They ARE members of the BPC
    Indeed. http://www.britishpollingcouncil.org/officers-members/
  • Byronic said:
    That is a 16% lead post Corbyn's so called good week with Trump and Farage being unhelpful
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Byronic said:

    Actually the "changes since" do put an entirely different gloss on this.

    Looks like ORB tend to favour Labour, and who the fuck are ORB anyway
    Yes. The smaller lead seems like a house effect. This is actually a rather good poll for the tories
This discussion has been closed.