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Fascinating finding from @OpiniumResearch 'Brexit referendum should never have been called, say majority of voters'https://t.co/Tgrgm69kyA

Read the full story here

bigjohnowls

1st like Labour at GE2020

kle4

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

kle4

Thinking it should not have been called strikes me as a very pointless question. I know, as per the header, that the point is to emphasise that it happening means years more stages to go through, but that just seems a more subtle false sell of how stopping things will make everything hunky dory again.

geoffw

Fire up the Quattro

MarqueeMark

"We should just have had politicians with the balls to leave without a referendum."

How many of them in your %, TSE?

Y0kel

Years ago on here I forwarded the idea that Islamic State would eventually eat itself as it spiralled into deeply divisive internal rivalries and an influx of increasingly diverse fighting base.

Its probable rather than possible that Baghdadi got grassed up by someone on the inside. The increased factionalism that may result is both good, in that the organisation may lack a central philosophical force for a while and bad because what was a relatively devolved outfit becomes even more so and harder to address because of it.

Edit. One of his senior deputies bought it as well. Two of them in one place is unusual.

MarqueeMark

bigjohnowls said:

1st like Labour at GE2020

But how do they come back from being marmalised in 2019?

GIN1138

bigjohnowls said:

1st like Labour at GE2020

JCICIPM eh Big John?

Danny565

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

Jonathan

This is a potential seam to mine against the government.

timmo

Y0kel said:

Years ago on here I forwarded the idea that Islamic State would eventually eat itself as it spiralled into deeply divisive internal rivalries and an influx of increasingly diverse fighting base.

Its probable rather than possible that Baghdadi got grassed up by someone on the inside. The increased factionalism that may result is both good, in that the organisation may lack a central philosophical force for a while and bad because what was a relatively devolved outfit becomes even more so and harder to address because of it.

Edit. One of his senior deputies bought it as well. Two of them in one place is unusual.

I would imagine this was the bone that Turkey offered up doe the Syria attack.

timmo

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

There wont be

nunuone

https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1188457218892582912

CarlottaVance

This type of polling, coupled with consistent polling from YouGov about Brexit being the wrong decision,

Up to a point, Lord Copper.....

https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1188425761063165952?s=20

Gabs2

timmo said:

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

There wont be

Even if there is not, the Tories will always be a Brexit party now. Their membership demands it. They will get a majority sooner or later.

SunnyJim

Danny565 said:

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

And I think you would probably be right.

Quite the rallying cry isn't it.

Philip_Thompson

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

You're 100% correct.

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

Danny565

SunnyJim said:

Danny565 said:

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

And I think you would probably be right.

Quite the rallying cry isn't it.

But it might have a parallel effect on people who want to stop Brexit.

If this election really does boil down to a de-facto second referendum (which, after being a sceptic of that idea for so long, now I reluctantly agree with), then, given the Remain and Leave camps are roughly equal in size, a hung parliament is likely IMO. Yes yes, "split votes" etc., but I'm just not convinced that people who hate Boris and his Brexit policy aren't going to default to the best option of stopping him when it comes down to it (though to be fair, for the same reason, I'd expect the Tories to squeeze what remains of the Brexit Party vote, too).

Y0kel

timmo said:

Y0kel said:

Years ago on here I forwarded the idea that Islamic State would eventually eat itself as it spiralled into deeply divisive internal rivalries and an influx of increasingly diverse fighting base.

Its probable rather than possible that Baghdadi got grassed up by someone on the inside. The increased factionalism that may result is both good, in that the organisation may lack a central philosophical force for a while and bad because what was a relatively devolved outfit becomes even more so and harder to address because of it.

Edit. One of his senior deputies bought it as well. Two of them in one place is unusual.

I would imagine this was the bone that Turkey offered up doe the Syria attack.

Hard to know. At the moment everyone is trying to get on the credit list. Turkish officials claim to have been onboard with this operation. There are stories that Tahrir Al-Sham, what used to be called Al Nusra the Al Qaeda affiliate that underwent a rebrand, was aware Baghdadi was in Idlib and were out to get him. On the other hand, the Kurdish dominated SDF says they were involved and that the Turkish military operation delayed the potential assault on Baghdadi.

williamglenn

CarlottaVance said:

This type of polling, coupled with consistent polling from YouGov about Brexit being the wrong decision,

Up to a point, Lord Copper.....

https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1188425761063165952?s=20

It's possible to believe Brexit is the wrong decision and also think we should do it. People with such views are unlikely to vote for Brexit if given the chance though.

nico67

If the WAIB does come back then it’s going to still be difficult to get it over the line .

The DUP given their comments over the weekend are going to support any amendments that in their view protect the Union .

So closer alignment with the EU would help that , and so a Customs Union etc .

The Labour Leavers barring the 6 who voted with the government on the programme motion are going to be under huge pressure to support a CU as that’s the Labour manifesto.

One of the Labour MPs , John Mann is moving to the HOL on Tuesday .

It might just be one vote but the government has little room in terms of votes .

The numbers for the second reading are the max available votes . The only way is down from there .

The FT leak is now a huge problem for Labour MPs who are seeking a way of supporting the government.

The second reading is IMO .

AMINO .

A majority in name only !

It might still scrape over the line but who would put money on it .

Floater

But other polls show people want Brexit delivered...

In other news

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7617677/Rebel-Labour-MPs-mount-secret-WhatsApp-plot-bring-Jeremy-Corbyn.html

Where have I heard that before?

Fishing

"Asked to consider the difficulties the government has had in reaching an agreement, 57% of UK adults surveyed said that they believed it would have been better not to have had a public vote in June 2016."

But isn't that first clause a sign that the finding is probably biased? If the question had been phrased "A democracy means that power comes from the people. The public decided by a referendum whether to remain in the Common Market in 1975. Considering that, should the next generation have decided whether to continue our membership of the EU in 2016?", you might have got an entirely different answer. Equally biased, but in the opposite direction.

rcs1000

Philip_Thompson said:

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

You're 100% correct.

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

Because they are more interested in keeping their jobs, than the abstract principle of EU membership.

(When job losses were abstract, it was one thing. When immintent, another.)

Floater

Pop quiz

Who said

(the EU is ) 'a regional arm of the globalisation project. Its unswerving adherence to liberal markets, deregulation and privatisation is to the detriment of working people…

'The EU is a bureaucratic, largely undemocratic organisation with a largely powerless parliament.

'And presently constituted, it cannot and will not serve the people of Europe.'

Clue - not Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage.

rcs1000

Floater said:

Pop quiz

Who said

(the EU is ) 'a regional arm of the globalisation project. Its unswerving adherence to liberal markets, deregulation and privatisation is to the detriment of working people…

'The EU is a bureaucratic, largely undemocratic organisation with a largely powerless parliament.

'And presently constituted, it cannot and will not serve the people of Europe.'

Clue - not Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage.

Probably that Greek guy who did so much to get kids addicted to gambling for real money i video games.

justin124

If Labour tabled a VNOC to be debated on Tuesday , an election could be set for 17th December. Too close to Christmas?

PClipp

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

Philip_Thompson

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

How are the terms rigged? The terms are the same as they've always been.

MarqueeMark

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

Yawn....

kle4

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

I don't understand how the terms for an election on 12th are 'rigged' but one for the 9th is not. I really think your partisan hatred is leading you to oversell this. I thought the only difference is 9th means no time for Boris to make a game of trying to get the WAIB through as part of, essentially, early campaigning.

PClipp

Philip_Thompson said:

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

How are the terms rigged? The terms are the same as they've always been.

Aren`t they trying to suppress the vote by means of requiring ID?

Apart from getting round all the rules over expenditure, of course.

RobD

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

How are the terms rigged? The terms are the same as they've always been.

Aren`t they trying to suppress the vote by means of requiring ID?

Apart from getting round all the rules over expenditure, of course.

There's no way that would be done in time for an election in December. Delay it longer, and perhaps.

Chris

It's to be presumed that 100% of political bettors are very pleased that the referendum took place, because it has offered so many betting opportunities.

For example, does anyone really think there is a 1 in 25 chance of our leaving the EU in four days' time? But we can still bet against it on that basis.

Philip_Thompson

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

How are the terms rigged? The terms are the same as they've always been.

Aren`t they trying to suppress the vote by means of requiring ID?

Apart from getting round all the rules over expenditure, of course.

No.

RobD

Philip_Thompson said:

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

How are the terms rigged? The terms are the same as they've always been.

Aren`t they trying to suppress the vote by means of requiring ID?

Apart from getting round all the rules over expenditure, of course.

No.

I'm also curious how the rules on expenditure are going to be changed/broken.

CarlottaVance

Again? And not so "secret" if its in the Sun:

https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/1188477328659308545?s=20

Ishmael_Z

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

How are the terms rigged? The terms are the same as they've always been.

Aren`t they trying to suppress the vote by means of requiring ID?

Apart from getting round all the rules over expenditure, of course.

Like they tried to suppress driving by introducing the breathalyzer.

MaxPB

rcs1000 said:

Floater said:

Pop quiz

Who said

(the EU is ) 'a regional arm of the globalisation project. Its unswerving adherence to liberal markets, deregulation and privatisation is to the detriment of working people…

'The EU is a bureaucratic, largely undemocratic organisation with a largely powerless parliament.

'And presently constituted, it cannot and will not serve the people of Europe.'

Clue - not Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage.

Probably that Greek guy who did so much to get kids addicted to gambling for real money i video games.

Varoufakis predates lootboxes by quite some distance.

kle4

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

How are the terms rigged? The terms are the same as they've always been.

Aren`t they trying to suppress the vote by means of requiring ID?

Not for this election

SquareRoot

CarlottaVance said:

Again? And not so "secret" if its in the Sun:

https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/1188477328659308545?s=20

DEja vu.

kinabalu

Floater said:

Pop quiz

Who said

(the EU is ) 'a regional arm of the globalisation project. Its unswerving adherence to liberal markets, deregulation and privatisation is to the detriment of working people…

'The EU is a bureaucratic, largely undemocratic organisation with a largely powerless parliament.

'And presently constituted, it cannot and will not serve the people of Europe.'

Clue - not Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage.

That sounds like Peter Crouch.

ralphmalph

Y0kel said:

timmo said:

Y0kel said:

Years ago on here I forwarded the idea that Islamic State would eventually eat itself as it spiralled into deeply divisive internal rivalries and an influx of increasingly diverse fighting base.

Its probable rather than possible that Baghdadi got grassed up by someone on the inside. The increased factionalism that may result is both good, in that the organisation may lack a central philosophical force for a while and bad because what was a relatively devolved outfit becomes even more so and harder to address because of it.

Edit. One of his senior deputies bought it as well. Two of them in one place is unusual.

I would imagine this was the bone that Turkey offered up doe the Syria attack.

Hard to know. At the moment everyone is trying to get on the credit list. Turkish officials claim to have been onboard with this operation. There are stories that Tahrir Al-Sham, what used to be called Al Nusra the Al Qaeda affiliate that underwent a rebrand, was aware Baghdadi was in Idlib and were out to get him. On the other hand, the Kurdish dominated SDF says they were involved and that the Turkish military operation delayed the potential assault on Baghdadi.

The Telegraph is reporting that the Iraqi security services captured one of his wives, a nephew and the wife of a courier and one of those gave the details. This of course could be a cover campaign to cover the real source.

kinabalu

williamglenn said:

It's possible to believe Brexit is the wrong decision and also think we should do it. People with such views are unlikely to vote for Brexit if given the chance though.

That’s me. I think it's a mistake but I think we must do it but I hope we don't - if that makes any sense.

Chris

kinabalu said:

williamglenn said:

It's possible to believe Brexit is the wrong decision and also think we should do it. People with such views are unlikely to vote for Brexit if given the chance though.

That’s me. I think it's a mistake but I think we must do it but I hope we don't - if that makes any sense.

I used to think I was indecisive myself. Now I'm not so sure.

OllyT

Philip_Thompson said:

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

You're 100% correct.

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

If you said that and we had a fair PR electoral system then I'd bite your hand off. It's pretty obvious that the Tory's strategy is to push through their Brexit on 35% of the votes because they couldn't get it ratified in a referendum.

sirclive

Gabs2 said:

timmo said:

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

There wont be

Even if there is not, the Tories will always be a Brexit party now. Their membership demands it. They will get a majority sooner or later.

Agreed. Especially while Farage is still around banging his drum.

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

Interesting question.

Philip_Thompson

OllyT said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

You're 100% correct.

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

If you said that and we had a fair PR electoral system then I'd bite your hand off. It's pretty obvious that the Tory's strategy is to push through their Brexit on 35% of the votes because they couldn't get it ratified in a referendum.

If you're not happy with it then what's to stop you from overturning it on 35% of the votes in the future?

CarlottaVance

Yep....

https://twitter.com/gsoh31/status/1188480863622828037?s=20

Alistair

Lol, at the time the Special Forces were raiding ISIS Trump was on the golf course.

https://twitter.com/ImpatientCatX1/status/1188473956308787200?s=19

Noo

Philip_Thompson said:

OllyT said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

You're 100% correct.

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

If you said that and we had a fair PR electoral system then I'd bite your hand off. It's pretty obvious that the Tory's strategy is to push through their Brexit on 35% of the votes because they couldn't get it ratified in a referendum.

If you're not happy with it then what's to stop you from overturning it on 35% of the votes in the future?

It takes a shitload more than 35% of the vote to rejoin the EU. They'd have to let us in for starters. Leaving is a cliff edge in more than one sense: you can't fall up a cliff.

Chris

Noo said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OllyT said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

You're 100% correct.

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

If you said that and we had a fair PR electoral system then I'd bite your hand off. It's pretty obvious that the Tory's strategy is to push through their Brexit on 35% of the votes because they couldn't get it ratified in a referendum.

If you're not happy with it then what's to stop you from overturning it on 35% of the votes in the future?

It takes a shitload more than 35% of the vote to rejoin the EU. They'd have to let us in for starters. Leaving is a cliff edge in more than one sense: you can't fall up a cliff.

But you can fly up it on the back of a unicorn. If the unicorn has wings. And if the unicorn isn't ascending so steeply you fall off. And probably under a few other conditions.

TudorRose

Philip_Thompson said:

OllyT said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

You're 100% correct.

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

If you said that and we had a fair PR electoral system then I'd bite your hand off. It's pretty obvious that the Tory's strategy is to push through their Brexit on 35% of the votes because they couldn't get it ratified in a referendum.

If you're not happy with it then what's to stop you from overturning it on 35% of the votes in the future?

I think that is, in essence, the Liberal Hypocrites election manifesto.

Richard_Tyndall

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

How are the terms rigged? The terms are the same as they've always been.

Aren`t they trying to suppress the vote by means of requiring ID?

Apart from getting round all the rules over expenditure, of course.

No to both. More Lib Dem myths.

MaxPB

Alistair said:

Lol, at the time the Special Forces were raiding ISIS Trump was on the golf course.

https://twitter.com/ImpatientCatX1/status/1188473956308787200?s=19

They probably didn't tell him because he's a fucking liability.

Richard_Tyndall

Floater said:

Pop quiz

Who said

(the EU is ) 'a regional arm of the globalisation project. Its unswerving adherence to liberal markets, deregulation and privatisation is to the detriment of working people…

'The EU is a bureaucratic, largely undemocratic organisation with a largely powerless parliament.

'And presently constituted, it cannot and will not serve the people of Europe.'

Clue - not Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage.

Ah Dear John. Our future chancellor.

kinabalu

Alistair said:

Lol, at the time the Special Forces were raiding ISIS Trump was on the golf course.

https://twitter.com/ImpatientCatX1/status/1188473956308787200?s=19

Coolly holing out on the 4th as the Bad Guy "died like a dawg" thousands of miles away in an operation that he personally planned in the minutest detail, carried out to precise perfection by a small group of his loyal and magnificent soldiers.

The base swoon in unison. The legend grows.

Philip_Thompson

Noo said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OllyT said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

It's a big reason Boris should have gone the harder route of trying the WAIB when he could have. A lot of remainers thought it would get through. Instead he got frit, saw it would be tough, and like May gave in to temptation to get a big majority to do it properly, and while he might succeed where she failed, he's opened the door to remain after it was almost shut in their faces.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

You're 100% correct.

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

If you said that and we had a fair PR electoral system then I'd bite your hand off. It's pretty obvious that the Tory's strategy is to push through their Brexit on 35% of the votes because they couldn't get it ratified in a referendum.

If you're not happy with it then what's to stop you from overturning it on 35% of the votes in the future?

It takes a shitload more than 35% of the vote to rejoin the EU. They'd have to let us in for starters. Leaving is a cliff edge in more than one sense: you can't fall up a cliff.

52% already voted to leave.

If you're not happy with the form of leave vote for another at the next General Election. Its called taking back control.

nico67

Although any future Tory government could remove a customs union amendment etc from the WAIB the optics of going into the election with that there could prove a gift to the Brexit Party.

It would be better for the Tories to pull the bill and go into an election without a deal rather than an amended WAIB.

Labour Remainer MPs must back a CU as a means to wreck the deal . As for Labour Leavers refusing to back the CU and just waving the deal through is likely to mean game over for them .

There are so many moving parts to how things might turn out .

Morris_Dancer

Incidentally, just got a new review of Sir Edric and the Plague (my SPFBO entry), so if you're wondering whether to buy it or not you should give it a look:
https://booknest.eu/component/k2/spfbo/1689-sir-edric-and-the-plague-the-hero-of-hornska-3

ydoethur

kinabalu said:

Alistair said:

Lol, at the time the Special Forces were raiding ISIS Trump was on the golf course.

https://twitter.com/ImpatientCatX1/status/1188473956308787200?s=19

Coolly holing out on the 4th as the Bad Guy "died like a dawg" thousands of miles away in an operation that he personally planned in the minutest detail, carried out to precise perfection by a small group of his loyal and magnificent soldiers.

The base swoon in unison. The legend grows.

He sank one in four shots, while the SEALS did four with one shot....

rottenborough

MaxPB said:

Alistair said:

Lol, at the time the Special Forces were raiding ISIS Trump was on the golf course.

https://twitter.com/ImpatientCatX1/status/1188473956308787200?s=19

They probably didn't tell him because he's a fucking liability.

Tweet: "Hey ISIS bad guy. LOOK out yer window. SUCKER!"

rcs1000

MaxPB said:

Alistair said:

Lol, at the time the Special Forces were raiding ISIS Trump was on the golf course.

https://twitter.com/ImpatientCatX1/status/1188473956308787200?s=19

They probably didn't tell him because he's a fucking liability.

The tweet would have been: "So excited. My special forces will be executing ISIS bad guy and Nancy Pelosi's friend Bag Daddy. Wanted to be part of raid myself stopped by killjoy nonothing Generals."

bigjohnowls

CarlottaVance said:

Again? And not so "secret" if its in the Sun:

https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/1188477328659308545?s=20

Is this from 2017?

Chris

So - as we're just four days away from No Deal - any advice on stockpiling?

bigjohnowls

MarqueeMark said:

bigjohnowls said:

1st like Labour at GE2020

But how do they come back from being marmalised in 2019?

There is no GE2019

Floater

Chris said:

So - as we're just four days away from No Deal - any advice on stockpiling?

Chris said:

So - as we're just four days away from No Deal - any advice on stockpiling?

Yes, don't bother

Floater

bigjohnowls said:

CarlottaVance said:

Again? And not so "secret" if its in the Sun:

https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/1188477328659308545?s=20

Is this from 2017?

In the mail today too

I must admit to checking the date :-)

TudorRose

Chris said:

So - as we're just four days away from No Deal - any advice on stockpiling?

Don't?

Way back in the 80's there were rumours that there would be a sugar shortage. My grandmother proceeded to stockpile 30 bags of sugar and, to be fair, so did all her neighbours. Guess what? There was a sugar shortage!

Mysticrose

I think this poll is dangerous for Boris Johnson ...

Mysticrose

Chris said:

So - as we're just four days away from No Deal

We're not.

Forget it.

Floater

Richard_Tyndall said:

Floater said:

Pop quiz

Who said

(the EU is ) 'a regional arm of the globalisation project. Its unswerving adherence to liberal markets, deregulation and privatisation is to the detriment of working people…

'The EU is a bureaucratic, largely undemocratic organisation with a largely powerless parliament.

'And presently constituted, it cannot and will not serve the people of Europe.'

Clue - not Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage.

Ah Dear John. Our future chancellor.

:-)

Lets hope he never gets any real power

nunuone

If the GOP were smart they would try harder to win more African Americans. Just winning a few more % of socially conservative blacks, would give them a durable majority, and enough state legislative control for a constitutional amendment.

https://mobile.twitter.com/davidshor/status/1188490860536762369

glw

Alistair said:

Lol, at the time the Special Forces were raiding ISIS Trump was on the golf course.

https://twitter.com/ImpatientCatX1/status/1188473956308787200?s=19

So the White House released a staged photograph of Trump overseeing the raid from the situation room, taken a couple of hours later.

This does fit a pattern, as there have been multiple reports over the last couple of years of the DoD keeping Trump out of the loop, or even misleading him to counteract some of his stupidest demands.

AndyJS

Labour had 13 years to introduce proportional representation. For some bizarre reason they didn't do so. (There was no need for a referendum IMO).

Floater

TudorRose said:

Chris said:

So - as we're just four days away from No Deal - any advice on stockpiling?

Don't?

Way back in the 80's there were rumours that there would be a sugar shortage. My grandmother proceeded to stockpile 30 bags of sugar and, to be fair, so did all her neighbours. Guess what? There was a sugar shortage!

Had you considered some people would be very pleased with a self induced shortage to point at.

Chris

TudorRose said:

Chris said:

So - as we're just four days away from No Deal - any advice on stockpiling?

Don't?

Way back in the 80's there were rumours that there would be a sugar shortage. My grandmother proceeded to stockpile 30 bags of sugar and, to be fair, so did all her neighbours. Guess what? There was a sugar shortage!

But not in your grandmother's house, by the sound of it.

You don't have to run faster than the lion, only faster than at least one of the other people who are running away from it.

Floater

bigjohnowls said:

MarqueeMark said:

bigjohnowls said:

1st like Labour at GE2020

But how do they come back from being marmalised in 2019?

There is no GE2019

Because Labour are running away as hard and fast as they can - whilst simultaneously claiming to want one.

Almost as impressive as it is farcical.

algarkirk

Fishing said:

"Asked to consider the difficulties the government has had in reaching an agreement, 57% of UK adults surveyed said that they believed it would have been better not to have had a public vote in June 2016."

But isn't that first clause a sign that the finding is probably biased? If the question had been phrased "A democracy means that power comes from the people. The public decided by a referendum whether to remain in the Common Market in 1975. Considering that, should the next generation have decided whether to continue our membership of the EU in 2016?", you might have got an entirely different answer. Equally biased, but in the opposite direction.

Yes. And also hindsight questions like this are without meaning. I am sure if asked we would row back on the wisdom of the diplomacy which led to the outbreak of WW1, our failing to confront Hitler earlier than we did, permitting the Iraq war, moderate Labour MPs nominating Corbyn in order to be fair to the ultra left and other matters too numerous to mention. So what? You may as well get opinions on counterfactuals like "How would things be now if the pressure for a referendum continued to be resisted by the entire political class, despite public support for one, to this day".

AndyJS

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

What are these "rigged terms"? I genuinely don't know.

algarkirk

AndyJS said:

PClipp said:

Philip_Thompson said:

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

I think Remainers, of all parties, are up for an election... but not on the rigged terms that the slimy Cummings and his puppet ABDPJohnson want to impose.

What are these "rigged terms"? I genuinely don't know.

+1

Gabs2

Noo said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OllyT said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

Danny565 said:

If we do get another hung parliament, with a majority of MPs elected on manifesto commitments to either a second referendum or cancelling Brexit outright, I wonder if the PBTories will stick to their recent insistence that that election should decide Brexit once and for all.

Also, if the Tories thought it was hard getting Labour MPs to vote for Brexit deals in this parliament, it will be MUCH harder after the next one. Of all the Lab MPs who were considering voting for a deal, either they will be voted out at the election; or they will have just been re-elected on explicit commitments to a new referendum, therefore will feel they have much more of a 'mandate' to point-blank refuse any Tory Brexit deal.

If there's not a Tory majority in the election, for the first time I'll think Brexit is over.

You're 100% correct.

If there's not a Tory majority its quite probable that it is over. So why are Remainers not up for an election?

.

If you're not happy with it then what's to stop you from overturning it on 35% of the votes in the future?

It takes a shitload more than 35% of the vote to rejoin the EU. They'd have to let us in for starters. Leaving is a cliff edge in more than one sense: you can't fall up a cliff.

If Remainers had accepted the referendum result with good grace, we could then have elected a 35% government post-Brexit on a Rejoin referendum. When Remain won, Leavers would have had to accepted it. The democratic instinct of the British people would have meant they couldn't have got out again without another 50%+ result, and demographics would have prevented this. This is the beauty of having a clear set of rules that everyone abides by. You might not like the result, but you accept the way we got there and democracy can continue.

But instead Remainers have legitimised changing the rules as you go, using every parliamentart subterfuge possible, and ignoring a referendum result with a parliamentary majority, elected under FPTP. The Lib Dems have even been stupid enough to validate it by saying a GE win means no referendum is needed. This has screwed us pro-Europeans as Tories are inevitably going to be able to do this in reverse within 10 years.

It was a childish, short-sighted and emotional response by an economic demographic not being able to cope with loss.

TudorRose

Chris said:

TudorRose said:

Chris said:

So - as we're just four days away from No Deal - any advice on stockpiling?

Don't?

Way back in the 80's there were rumours that there would be a sugar shortage. My grandmother proceeded to stockpile 30 bags of sugar and, to be fair, so did all her neighbours. Guess what? There was a sugar shortage!

But not in your grandmother's house, by the sound of it.

You don't have to run faster than the lion, only faster than at least one of the other people who are running away from it.

Most people had enough sugar (because they'd hoarded it) or knew someone who had. And - to answer Floater's point - they were all proud that they had listened to the rumours and not been caught out!

Gabs2

AndyJS said:

Labour had 13 years to introduce proportional representation. For some bizarre reason they didn't do so. (There was no need for a referendum IMO).

I think any major constitutional change should have a referendum.

kinabalu

bigjohnowls said:

There is no GE2019

April 2020 GE is what is revealed when I rub my ball.

And Brexit done - with a Deal - before then.

Chris

TudorRose said:

Chris said:

TudorRose said:

Chris said:

So - as we're just four days away from No Deal - any advice on stockpiling?

Don't?

Way back in the 80's there were rumours that there would be a sugar shortage. My grandmother proceeded to stockpile 30 bags of sugar and, to be fair, so did all her neighbours. Guess what? There was a sugar shortage!

But not in your grandmother's house, by the sound of it.

You don't have to run faster than the lion, only faster than at least one of the other people who are running away from it.

Most people had enough sugar (because they'd hoarded it) or knew someone who had. And - to answer Floater's point - they were all proud that they had listened to the rumours and not been caught out!

So essentially you're asking us to be altruistic, and drink our sugarless tea with an upper lip fortified by the knowledge that if we'd bought an extra couple of bags someone else instead of us would be going without?

Gallowgate

Gabs2 said:

AndyJS said:

Labour had 13 years to introduce proportional representation. For some bizarre reason they didn't do so. (There was no need for a referendum IMO).

I think any major constitutional change should have a referendum.

I don’t think so. This country has proven its not politically mature enough to deal with referendums.

TudorRose

Chris said:

TudorRose said:

Chris said:

TudorRose said:

Chris said:

So - as we're just four days away from No Deal - any advice on stockpiling?

Don't?

Way back in the 80's there were rumours that there would be a sugar shortage. My grandmother proceeded to stockpile 30 bags of sugar and, to be fair, so did all her neighbours. Guess what? There was a sugar shortage!

But not in your grandmother's house, by the sound of it.

You don't have to run faster than the lion, only faster than at least one of the other people who are running away from it.

Most people had enough sugar (because they'd hoarded it) or knew someone who had. And - to answer Floater's point - they were all proud that they had listened to the rumours and not been caught out!

So essentially you're asking us to be altruistic, and drink our sugarless tea with an upper lip fortified by the knowledge that if we'd bought an extra couple of bags someone else instead of us would be going without?

I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm just pointing out that stockpiling is the quickest way to have a shortage of something.

RobD

Gallowgate said:

Gabs2 said:

AndyJS said:

Labour had 13 years to introduce proportional representation. For some bizarre reason they didn't do so. (There was no need for a referendum IMO).

I think any major constitutional change should have a referendum.

I don’t think so. This country has proven its not politically mature enough to deal with referendums.

Because it gave the wrong answer?

kinabalu

Chris said:

So - as we're just four days away from No Deal - any advice on stockpiling?

I am concentrating on life or death matters such as clean water. 6 weeks supply is prudent IMO.

Gallowgate

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Gabs2 said:

AndyJS said:

Labour had 13 years to introduce proportional representation. For some bizarre reason they didn't do so. (There was no need for a referendum IMO).

I think any major constitutional change should have a referendum.

I don’t think so. This country has proven its not politically mature enough to deal with referendums.

Because it gave the wrong answer?

The referendum itself was not the problem. The aftermath however...

SandyRentool

TudorRose said:

Chris said:

TudorRose said:

Chris said:

TudorRose said:

Chris said:

So - as we're just four days away from No Deal - any advice on stockpiling?

Don't?

Way back in the 80's there were rumours that there would be a sugar shortage. My grandmother proceeded to stockpile 30 bags of sugar and, to be fair, so did all her neighbours. Guess what? There was a sugar shortage!

But not in your grandmother's house, by the sound of it.

You don't have to run faster than the lion, only faster than at least one of the other people who are running away from it.

Most people had enough sugar (because they'd hoarded it) or knew someone who had. And - to answer Floater's point - they were all proud that they had listened to the rumours and not been caught out!

So essentially you're asking us to be altruistic, and drink our sugarless tea with an upper lip fortified by the knowledge that if we'd bought an extra couple of bags someone else instead of us would be going without?

I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm just pointing out that stockpiling is the quickest way to have a shortage of something.

Society soon returns to Hobbes' State of Nature when a shortage of bread, milk, sugar or petrol threatens.

Jonathan

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Gabs2 said:

AndyJS said:

Labour had 13 years to introduce proportional representation. For some bizarre reason they didn't do so. (There was no need for a referendum IMO).

I think any major constitutional change should have a referendum.

I don’t think so. This country has proven its not politically mature enough to deal with referendums.

Because it gave the wrong answer?

The referendum itself was not the problem. The aftermath however...

Ask a silly (ill defined) question, get a silly answer.

rcs1000

nunuone said:

If the GOP were smart they would try harder to win more African Americans. Just winning a few more % of socially conservative blacks, would give them a durable majority, and enough state legislative control for a constitutional amendment.

https://mobile.twitter.com/davidshor/status/1188490860536762369

As a general rule, though, supporting neo-Nazis in Charlotteville is not the kind of thing that goes down well with any African Americans, socially conservative or not.

Trump can't pivot to collect socially conservative African Americans, or socially conservative Latinos, because he has chosen the mantle of identity politics for Whites who feel the system is stacked against them.

AndyJS

That poll on violence might not have been reported properly:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/27/brexit-poll-found-we-want-to-believe-the-worst-of-ourselves

MaxPB

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Gabs2 said:

AndyJS said:

Labour had 13 years to introduce proportional representation. For some bizarre reason they didn't do so. (There was no need for a referendum IMO).

I think any major constitutional change should have a referendum.

I don’t think so. This country has proven its not politically mature enough to deal with referendums.

Because it gave the wrong answer?

The referendum itself was not the problem. The aftermath however...

The aftermath has been the MPs doing their best to defy the leave vote without looking like they are. Boris just got a deal after they said he wouldn't, he tried to pass it and now they won't.

Pity the voters who have given the instruction, not the establishment who won't listen to it.

MarqueeMark

Mysticrose said:

I think this poll is dangerous for Boris Johnson ...

Yawn.

Would you like to list those five things that are NOT dangerous for Boris Johnson in your world?

EPG

MaxPB said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Gabs2 said:

AndyJS said:

Labour had 13 years to introduce proportional representation. For some bizarre reason they didn't do so. (There was no need for a referendum IMO).

I think any major constitutional change should have a referendum.

I don’t think so. This country has proven its not politically mature enough to deal with referendums.

Because it gave the wrong answer?

The referendum itself was not the problem. The aftermath however...

The aftermath has been the MPs doing their best to defy the leave vote without looking like they are. Boris just got a deal after they said he wouldn't, he tried to pass it and now they won't.

Pity the voters who have given the instruction, not the establishment who won't listen to it.

The voters last instructed politicians in 2017 and it produced a clear mandate to do... er, nothing clear. One may as well say that we should hold politicians to the 2015 election result and re-elect David Cameron.

kinabalu

lol
https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/1188458334086684673?s=20